the problem with you season two

[@juliacudney]

getting a lot of comments saying her arc could be further exploration of the idea that we’re quicker to forgive men than women. i did consider that idea, but nothing the crew said in interviews (about her) led me believe that was their intention. it’s also not in line with public perception of her, which as far as i know, has been pretty positive. nonetheless this could be true and still not take away from the fact that her being so similar to joe undermines the “meta-commentary of romcom behavior” thing.

[@athenajaxon2397]

I hated her from the beginning she was controlling, demanding and just straight up obnoxious. Joe had relatable qualities and the other characters were so horrible that he seemed better than them. Also we see him get better in season 2 he murders a mob boss and Henderson mostly in self-defense and for mostly selfless reasons while Love does it for pure selfish reasons

[@marohoh]

The "twist" wasn't surprising to me. She displayed a lot of stalker/ psychotic qualities throughout the show. I agree that that plot point doesn't fully reflect the theme of the show, but it does (like you mentioned) show the toxic rules of femininity. Love feels responsible for her family, which leads her to do crazy things to protect her brother, and bear with her mother's abuse even as an adult. Love also feels this responsibility to be a mother, and she's willing to marry a crazy guy just because he "loves her" and can help her have a kid. Anyway this show is awesome and I enjoyed your commentary! :)

[@gingerkatherina]

You say you found nothing what the crew said fit this "theory" but you litteraly inserted a clip where she says the exact words you think weren't said ( 5:22 ) In my personal opinion I think you where on to something when you said: "He suddenly doesn't love her anymore when he realizes she is the same as him." - The complexity of the thing is: He wants to be loved with all of his flaws so badly, but can''t even love himself. And that's the real issue.

[@duyguozkann]

Love's plot twist reminded me of the Bojack Horseman episode where there was a woman mass shooter in the news, and subsequently Diane gave a speech about responsible gun use and & an ultimatum to ban guns or encourage responsible gun use. AND the state of California ban all guns because of 1 woman mass shooter. Here's a mini-link from the episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZaqYayVo8dof6M Simply, the perception changes when a woman does a thing a man does. I think it's quite efficient to show that

[@zaxxers]

I watched this with my friend and we both clocked the twist episode 1. Mainly because she kept doing everything he wanted to do. Also that is such a season 2 twist. I still thought it was weird that she dumped him at first (if it was important to her that he really saw her) but I guess 10 episodes are important Also, I saw interviews that with season 2 they just started trying to figure out how self aware Joe can get. I still agree with you too though and I like you a lot. I didn't wanna seem mean or something.

[@catladyy666]

i think the element of the second season is:::: irony the character is literally called LOVE !!! we were let to believe that love changes people our entire lives. love was the cool girl, that should “fix” the bad guy. but that is a lie. love doesn’t change people, people change because they want to change and do something about it. it’s a sick joke: love doesn’t change people. literally.

[@valeriarossini543]

oh that actually makes a lot of sense

[@cameliss17]

This sums it up very well. Joe believes only love (the love he never received as a child) will save him and make him better, that is why he chases it desperately. However he realized that love can also be a fucked up thing. You can only fix yourself, love will not fix you.

[@LegioXXI]

@@cameliss17 Yup true. Learned the same lesson in real life too - the hard way with many failed relationships and many broken hearts and well... i also did more or less intentionally hurt people. The lesser the whole "Love will fix it"idea could work in reality, the stronger i tried to enforce it. Its almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the core expectations are flawed and you go for the wrong people (which you don't realize, since you are idealizing). But its a common belief in psychology that we either crave in our romantic relationships what we missed in our childhood, or we try to copy them - even if they were toxic and abusive. And i think a lot of us where at some similar point in life, which is why so many can identify with Joe in this series. Not the murder stuff, but the idealization stuff (which can actually lead to violence pretty easily...). The idealization can go so far that you build up a whole world around your fantasy, and when you are emotionally so invested and dependent from this fantasy *you will defend it* against anything and anyone threatening it. Just like a drug addict will defend his needs, and many of them can also get very violent...

[@sophiaprocter9728]

Her brother is named Forty, it's a tennis pun. Forty is how you win tennis, Love is zero. Makes you think about Love's childhood since she is literally named zero and Forty is kind of named winner.

[@Ella-px1xw]

I think love brought out the worst in him. Both the girl and the concept. He never does anything good when love is involved

[@PamGeloVlogs]

My understanding of Joe’s disinterest in Love after her reveal as a killer is that it’s a commentary on the hypocrisy and narcissism of problematic men, especially as it relates to women in similar situations. There’s a reason we aren’t privy to Love’s internal monologue - it’s because we are meant to feel repulsed by her actions in the same way Joe secretly is. In romantic movies, the trope of the woman is the good girl who is innocent and kind and needs saving from a man. Love subverts that entirely and Joe (as well as the audience, a reflection of Joe) recoils. And it that sense, I think it still 100% lends to the original thematic goals of season 1. We excuse problematic male behaviour, even going as far as to celebrate it. Women are only likeable if they are meek, codependent, one dimensional and unsurprising, nothing less.

[@LegioXXI]

"Women are only likeable if they are meek, codependent, one dimensional and unsurprising, nothing less." Funny how those are one of my biggest turn-OFFs for women, lel. But okay iam not a good reference, i'd even say i like yandere behavior to some extent 😅 i think its true that probably most men would prefer those women you mentioned.

[@valerieb2614]

strongly agree

[@ernesto.carloz]

He hates himself, she is him but in a female version, that's the reason why he isn't able to love her anymore. End of story.

[@emilyveale2805]

I always thought it was a great example of how much he NEEDS the woman he is fixated on to see him as a hero, a saviour, etc. He isn't comfortable being "loved" for who he truly is, murder and all, because it breaks his own delusions of grandeur. He needs the truth of what he is doing to be a secret so that he can be loved for the facade, breaking it down destroys the narrative he tells himself and does indeed show the hypocrisy in his position, and how much the fantasy truly means to him: He cannot love Love when she reflects his behaviour and accepts him for who he is, because that means he must acknowledge who he truly is, and that's not gonna fly.

[@dash5573]

This is true, but as a man do women have the same experience where they find themselves unjustly excusing another woman’s actions

[@soyanakatrice1286]

I didnt watch s2 but I think the point of the plot twist was showing us that men (at least in rom coms) do not fall in love with the woman for who they really are, but with a fantasy of who that woman should be. The trope of the perfectly imperfect girl/manic pixie dream girl that cures all your problems and for some reason falls for the weird average guy just becauss he is nice at times. This season questions medias portrayal of women as a guys savior and shows that women are as complex and flawed as men are. It also shows that men dont accept women that have the same flaws as them e.g joe falling out of love with the girl because she is crazy even though he is too. Women arent allowed to be flawed in any way (unhappy, too ambitious, "ugly", nerdy) while men are allowed to be flawed and still get the perfect girl

[@chalkieslunchmoney6885]

Soyana Katrice wow i love this interpretation 😳 ugh ur mind 🥵🥵

[@haggisa]

Soyana Katrice Love that perspective. To add to that, I think the reason Beck is as flawed as she is, may have also been a commentary on how the female characters in films, that center around a romantic plot (or a “woman as the victim” plot) tend to be written as near perfect entities, and not as real women. They’re usually understanding, loyal, strong, selfless, self-possessed and they never cheat. Beck is self-absorbed, lost, insecure and manipulative. So the narrative is asking us: Will you have sympathy for a victim, even though she’s a flawed human being? Will you side with her, even though her choices were morally questionable? Or will you discard her like Joe did, because she didn’t live up to the romantic ideals you have been fed your whole life? Who is deserving of being loved and killed - an imperfect girl like Beck, or some vision of feminine perfection, that doesn’t actually exist?

[@soniam3776]

YES! exactly what i thought as well!

[@crod9905]

haggisa I love your perspective more. Season 1 hit OP's analysis better than season 2 did. This season's plot twist was not for some commentary on the complexity of women and their flaws. Beck's character was already commentary on that, and the viewers reacted just as predicted. This twist was just contrived shock value meant to prolong the show.

[@mochibun3890]

This was exactly my thought too!! At the beginning of S2 I really didnt like Love because I just thought she was just a pixie dream girl but that was the point. That's all he sees women as, a fantasy. When Love turned out to be just like him he couldn't accept it and saw her as psychotic but he expected her and Beck to accept him. And it makes the audience feel the same way. I found myself liking Joe even to the end but completely disliked Love at the end despite the fact that she still loves and accepts him after it all but he immediately loses interest and moves on to find another woman(the neighbour) to fulfill his fantasy. It blatantly showed how hypocritical we are and the double standards we hold when judging men and women, they just took it to the extreme for entertainment purposes.

[@greatesteva7343]

I believe that Love’s plot twist was to further represent that we as the audience can forgive these “romantic” actions only if the man is performing them and if the woman performs them she is psychotic.

[@L.R.R.H413]

I agree I feel like that’s what they were trying to do with her character but I think they messed up showing it in the long run

[@xbeautifulxliex123]

Agreed. And that's the exact reaction I saw on Twitter in regards to their characters. People kept saying she's a psycho and that she deserves to be cheated on (based on the last scene where Joe is seemingly pining over the neighbour) and although people say he's a psycho too, the reaction is that he is somehow more justified in it because he cares for kids in trouble and was trying to be better and not kill. They're both severely messed up but the reaction is different.

[@Klissaczek]

Or like, you know. We just get to know Joe’s pov more clery than Love’s.

[@duyguozkann]

exactly! I knew there was a plot twist watching season 2 (but didn't know what it was), so I was expecting them to runaway and be happy just like Julia said. However, it would ultimately give Joe "the happy ending he deserved" and I don't think writers would want to do that

[@Mini-Toast_]

I think it also in response to the audience reaction for Joe in season 1. The audience reaction seemed to be "Yes Joe is the villain, but I find myself rooting for him." Love is basically Joe minus the access to her inner thoughts and justifications. And without that access to her inner thoughts and justifications, you can't sympathize with her. The reason Joe falls out of love is because she serves as a mirror. When he sees her, he is actually seeing himself, and he can't love her. That is why I think the third season will give us Loves inner thoughts. The vitriol you feel towards her is what you would feel towards Joe if you didn't have access to his thought process.

[@musiclover12369]

The real problem with season 2 is that somehow Joe was able to afford rent in LA selling some damn books at a bootleg Whole Foods

[@MiyahElise]

Caseykins you forgot he was WILL not joe will has money

[@flawedfairytales9808]

well he killed two ritch kids maybe he hacked their bank accounts or took money off Benji. But yeah I agree should of been explained better.

[@Jennifer-gv8cr]

He lived in New York. New York and California rent aren’t all that different. He also sold books to sell to get 50k to give to jasper but obviously couldn’t. It wasn’t for rent.

[@carlitobrigante330]

Or able to afford rent in NYC, for that matter...

[@slimkt]

*bootleg Erewhon (which is basically just a more ‘exclusive’ Whole Foods lmao) Only know this because my ex was a fancy Angeleno who only bought organic food and pointed it out while watching the show

[@morgantaylor9210]

When Love first walked into the storage unit with Candance and saw Joe in the box, I totally thought she was going to accept his murders and do the toxic "I can fix him" trope. But yeah then she went full murder town so idk

[@trinaq]

Ditto, I simply expected Love to cover up the murders, but NOT to reveal a deranged, psychotic persona of her own!😱 Though you could also argue that she and Joe deserve each other, and are a mismatch made in hell!😈

[@anderclettaweekle2672]

in the book her brother was nuts instead, so she ended up thinking it was normal and going with it and being on his side? idk but i liked the show better just because it was weird af in the book

[@crod9905]

That would have actually made more sense and continued with the subversion of rom-com tropes.

[@mediaguyking7045]

Morgan Taylor and she also used her family’s power and money to hide the whole thing

[@Alexis-wg5nx]

i'd prefer this plot twist over the one they went with. i just found the "love is also a serial killer" plot twist to be kind of melodramatic.

[@null6955]

i feel like love's role isn't a mirror to joe but someone who enables him and protects him at all costs. she's like the toxic mother, not the toxic girlfriend. and i think that's what they're going for and probably what we'll see more of in season 3. it's why we had forty and we saw forty die at the end and love reveal that she's pregnant.

[@Amsayy]

There’s been a lot of mother themes in the second season, so this take is probably pretty accurate. The toxic mom of Love, joes toxic mother, the older woman next door who Joe sees at the end of the season finale, etc.

[@loreninavloggingcup]

Good theory

[@oldacc2584]

Good theory, and I wonder if the girl from the last episode will play into this.

[@narwhalgirl12]

"I feel like she's hungry but I'm not supposed to feed her for another two hours because... *ShE hAs diAbEtEs* "

[@Alex-rh8mr]

😂

[@myafigs6065]

Unreliable Narrator. The watchers have to understand that

[@Alexa-so4jh]

MyaFigs EXACTLYYYY, if you would’ve seen it from becks perspective it would be a horror show

[@haggisa]

Alexa It’s a horror show even without her perspective.

[@crod9905]

@@haggisa It used to be until this season.

[@firebender37]

MyaFigs exactly, just like Humbert from Vladimir’s Nabokov’s “Lolita”

[@kaylakthulhu8623]

True. The show was still bad

[@meganwilson9400]

I'd argue that the role of Love is to show how differently we percieve men and women for the same thing. We root for Joe, even though we know what he did was wrong whereas we critique Love for doing the exact same thing and are much less likely to sympathise with her character. Which shows how we desperately try to find any good qualities in a white man who is doing terrible things just like Penn mentioned in one of the interviews... Or maybe I just hate how dirty Delilah was done did.

[@fabledhorse356]

Wow that’s a great take

[@athenajaxon2397]

I hated her from the beginning she was controlling, demanding and just straight up obnoxious. Joe had relatable qualities and the other characters were so horrible that he seemed better than them. Also we see him get better in season 2 he murders a mob boss and Henderson mostly in self-defense and for mostly selfless reasons while Love does it for pure selfish reasons

[@zoesomething9507]

@@athenajaxon2397 you're proving the point here

[@athenajaxon2397]

@@zoesomething9507 not really. It's easy to relate to Joe I didn't find Love relatable at all so I have less forgiveness for her

[@zoesomething9507]

@@athenajaxon2397 i have to assume the show is structured that way on purpose though. not only have we spent a lot more time with joe, but we may also have unconscious biases against women because well most people do

[@paular3822]

I find it hilariously ironic that The Dan Humphrey, one of the biggest romanticized jerks of TV, brings light into the matter

[@Kevin-rg3yc]

Right dan was annoying how he stuck up his nose to the upper East side kids for their privileged lifestyle bc of his personal jealousy but was wanted to fit in so much that he created the gossip girl blog that ruined the upset east side kids lives. I'm still mad he didn't get no punishment for it when he revealed himself to be gossip girl

[@fabledhorse356]

Malcolm 1097 ikr! And Blair was immediately ignored and invalidated when she tried to point out crazy and terrible it is!

[@oppakunn328]

@@Kevin-rg3yc Yeah but everyone was a jerk in Gossip Girl

[@Kevin-rg3yc]

Oppa Kunn true no doubt

[@Alexis-wg5nx]

i still genuinely believe that serena should've ended up with collin forester.

[@venetiagoggaki3736]

Candace had so much potential and they just threw her whole arc out of the window

[@daniecurb8724]

Βενετία Yea I was totally ready to see her serve his behind some justice or at least keep him on his toes for at least another season. It was pointless to make a big deal about bringing her back from the dead just so she could be a plot hole filler. I seriously thought homegirl was going to take him down or at least have control over him for a bit.

[@Amakiseul]

I appreciate that Penn himself does such a good analysis and dissection of the show and what it is trying to convey instead of just playing a role and being like 🤷‍♂️

[@sanaarora3986]

me: only saw the first episode of season one also me: settles in with some popcorn for julia’s take

[@trinaq]

Yep, my thoughts exactly. There's many videos of Julia's where I haven't seen the subject she's reviewing, but I'll gladly watch all the same!👍

[@lottaleben-p7x]

noo, what about the spoilers...

[@joanlickona5115]

I haven’t seen anything Julia reviews, but I watch her anyway 😅

[@noodlefoosa5191]

Literally me

[@smarti1144]

This is my first time on her channel. I can totally see this.

[@georgiaewington]

I actually love what they did with Love by making her seem too perfect. They way I took it is Love portrayed herself as she wanted Joe to see her. Joe does the same, he even says so himself. He wants to be the perfect boyfriend. By her seeming so perfect to us also made us suspicious that a major fault is coming. I think it was really clever writing and it also makes it less consistent? Let me explain. A lot of the plot points are the same in season 1 as season 2. Joe protecting a child, Joe wanting to get rid of an anchor in the love interests life (Peach, Forty) etc etc. There’s a lot that’s the same, so if they had portrayed Love seeming more “mediocre”, you could critique it by saying Love is too similar to Beck. Jumping back a bit, Love portrayed herself as her best self to Joe. This is different to Beck because Beck really didn’t care enough about Joe to put on a mask and pretend to be something she’s not. Also, thinking about it I feel we saw more of Beck without Joe than we saw Love without Joe. It seemed that she had few scenes where Joe wasn’t there. Even when Joes being the creep he is and is spying on her, she could’ve known he was there if they are this supposed “mirror image” of each other and share creepy ways. Not only that, but in season 1 episode 4, we saw a lot from Becks perspective. We really got a look into her thoughts and narration. We didn’t get this until season 2 episode 10 with Love and even then, it was so focused on her thoughts throughout her and Joes relationship, different to Becks. Plus, we saw Becks thoughts, we didn’t see Loves thoughts as such, it was reliant on her story telling. Lots of differences as to how the writing and directing chose to portray the two leading women. Maybe in season 3 we’ll see more perspective from Love and get a better insight into her thoughts. I understand why they didn’t do this in season 2 because it could’ve revealed something they didn’t want to reveal until episode 10. In summary, Love seems more perfect than Beck because the character wanted to seem more perfect to Joe and the directing choice was made in preparation for the twist at the end. This twist didn’t happen in season 1 so they had more freedom to play around with Becks character. I really feel like I could write a full on essay about how and why these characters are portrayed differently. Thanks for the prompt.

[@lilmess5234]

U wanna write the essay and post it somewhere? Cause I would totally read it not just for the shows sake but also for my English improvement lol

[@likeacorpse]

you should totally start a blog or KZbin channel! I’d love to see your take on characters in tv shows and movies, even if it’s just about this show since you seem to enjoy it.

[@nkirukaj2384]

Fun fact Julia, the original book that this season was based off of (“Hidden Bodies”) the ending that you described is actually what happens. Joe kills Delilah and Love finds out and just accepts him for who he is as if he could be “fixed”

[@pyroshayniac1090]

I love how the actor drags Joe and Joe fangirls simultaniously!

[@justwannafreefx9419]

The only thing I took away from this video is how hot Shay Mitchell is

[@astoldbynickgerr]

JustWannaFreeFx YES.

[@londonjonez4543]

I love those buns they really suit you

[@trinaq]

Likewise, Princess Leia space buns are totally out of this galaxy!🌌

[@Stella-cf4cl]

I didn’t think she tried to lure Candice out, I think she threw up cause she was pregnant and Candice just followed. Idk

[@konanmadeleine2753]

Yeah i agree with you , but she was going to kill her anyway that's for sure lol

[@Stella-cf4cl]

konan madeleine oh definitely

[@hazelandcats]

I think it wasn’t a pregnancy throw up, more a shock thing, but yeah, I agree otherwise

[@konanmadeleine2753]

@@hazelandcats she already knew about the box , about who Joe was and what he did, plus she's the one who killed Delilah so she had no reason to be shocked

[@hazelandcats]

konan madeleine i mean shocked about his confession. She knew some stuff but she didn’t know the extent, and the sudden confrontation with Candace, seeing him in the cage

[@smosh_crone]

did that woman really say "Cute Meet" instead of MeetCute

[@kirapeters8881]

Done by Writer That bothered me so much more than it probably should have!

[@lalaishappyyy]

oh god

[@haggisa]

Done by Writer It irked me too, but that woman, Sera Gamble, is a fantastic producer. She did a wonderful job with “The Magicians”, injecting it with witty meta humour and bucketloads of fantasy trope subversion. It’s worth checking out.

[@benjidalton3643]

To be honest I always saw Love as nuts. Like it’s the second episode and she’s already wanting to introduce him to her friends even though they’ve known each other for like three days lol? To me she seemed so over emotional and obsessive. I didn’t expect her to be a killer like Joe but I did suspect her to be like crazy lol

[@valeriarossini543]

sameee

[@lizzieenergy2761]

u rlly be out here like she’s crazy when the same man did all these things + murdered and stalk like 10 people?

[@benjidalton3643]

Lizzie yes she is crazy, when did I say Joe isn’t crazy? When did I say Joe isn’t a killer or a stalker? Her being crazy doesn’t take away from his craziness, they’re both psychopaths.

[@smarti1144]

Me too

[@flawedfairytales9808]

Honestly the signs were there considering her weird co dependant relationship with her twin brother and parental relationships that something was wrong with her.

[@lauraelena8212]

Julia YES the biggest plot hole to me was like how did he rush to LA but have time to take apart the box and ship it to LA

[@rachelbbq]

he said he built it like from scratch I think? he talked abt like having to buy three inch plexiglass or something

[@lisalee1557]

i think there was a little part where he said he built it in his narration

[@avacx]

Idk how he did it so fast but they’re really just for preserving books (wink wink) so he could have just bought it, or disassembled the original one and sent it

[@Arguing.With.Idiots.]

@@KD-ux2xq I don't know if this helps but in the book, Mr. Mooney gave him heaps of cash before going to LA.

[@lauraelena8212]

Ameerah by that I though he meant like reassembling it but idk

[@MsKristinaRose]

I think that Love does add to the main theme because there are tons of women who also engage and enable men to be awful to women. There’s a real life story where a girl went missing after she reported her roommate’s boyfriend for sexual assault and so the roommate helped kill her to protect him and pretend like she didn’t know what was happening. I saw it as Love capturing a more reality based critique on women and how far they will go to protect the men they are with. Or are related to, even at the expense of other women

[@Atomantia]

When you said "has thematically altered the show in a way that I don't like." I felt like someone explained my feelings perfectly like omfg yes

[@SuperSkyclouds]

i really find it interesting how literally almost all of S2, Joe is constantly mentioning his love for Love but as soon as she exposes what she’s done his feelings immediately change. It doesn’t help Joes character at all.

[@sabinabarrolaza7285]

“To spares Joes virgin eyes from the sight of blood?”

[@celiavelazquez6409]

I think Love's character could be a critique of wealthy people and how wealthy can get away with anything because they have enough money to cover their mistakes

[@BellesView]

Agreed. That’s why I ended the season pissed. Joe and Love will do it all over again but with the backing of money and privilege. So now they’re unstoppable 😡 RIP Delilah

[@sappy_]

I literally haven't seen a single episode of this show, but hey, I'm here, I got my popcorn, let's talk.

[@anamerida2618]

SappyCakes lol same

[@oliviabaron9858]

that’s a mood

[@SalElwy]

I think it adds to the “rom com fantasy” theme because it shatters Joe’s perception of Love, even though her bad actions are the same as his. It also shows how Joe is able to validate the murders he commits, but as soon as it’s committed by a woman who’s perfect in his eyes, it’s suddenly unforgivable. This idea does get a little messed up towards the end though because Joe does (kind of) see the fault in his actions, and as much as I like the concept of him dealing with his remorse, I wish they hadn’t done that. It undermines the whole reasoning as to why the plot twist happened. also I HATE the thing with the neighbor at the end. I get what they were trying to do but it would’ve made a better set-up for a third season if the third season was about Joe dealing with his guilt while trying to get out of his relationship with Joe, rather than just setting up yet another stalker season.

[@anandamorales5803]

joe will goldberg bettleheim is the most unreliable narrator ive ever come across

[@trinaq]

The ending of this season reminded me A LOT of "Gone Girl," and I have no idea if this was intentional or not. Two awful, psychotic people are forced to stay together after a slew of murders in their wake. Not to mention, what's to become of their poor child?!😱

[@marvel096]

Trina I don’t remember Ben affleck’s character being psychotic in gone girl 🤔

[@cherryblossom7120]

Actually I think she faked it, to make herself look better.

[@TVChild3]

marvel096 Nick in Gone Girl wasn’t psychotic, but he was not a good person. The novel and the movie make that clear. Amy’s vengeance is over the top, Nick doesn’t deserve being framed for a murder, but he does deserve some comeuppance, he is not a good guy.

[@crod9905]

@@TVChild3 Nick was honestly the Beck of Gone Girl while Amy was the Joe.

[@ResidentReveler]

Ben Affleck's character was not a psycho lol.

[@gingerkatherina]

I liked season 2 way more because almost all characters where somehow lovable. In season 1 I was annoyed by most of them (except for peach) and the rest was forgettable af. At least you can remember Forty, Delilah, Elli, Will, Loves 3 friends and even Henderson and the Police officer vividly. I think strong characters make anything so much better. ❤️ You almost can't decide who's your favorite.

[@TheLeah2344]

Ginger Katherina I thought I was the only one who liked this season better.

[@shrek3397]

bruh how do you like peach

[@gingerkatherina]

@@shrek3397 at least she was kind of charismatic

[@orimengu]

Literally all the characters in season 2 are UNBEARABLE, I prefer the characters from season 1

[@hannahlouise9978]

shrek I think I liked her cause I loved pll so I love shay as an actor too

[@ariellelyons]

The censoring of the f word with the american idol logo AND verbally saying fork?!?? I love you!

[@livcaitbff]

I never rooted for Joe or sympathised with him in any way. He is my worst nightmare. He’s not a charming romantic, he’s a terrifying, obsessive, violent murderer who’s constantly trying to justify what he’s done. I watched the show because dramatic thrillers are... thrilling. But I never once found myself rooting for Joe.

[@vd.9050]

My dog wants a cuddle Me: I want to give that dog a cuddleeeeeeeee!!!!!!

[@trinaq]

I know, what an ultra cute pooch!😍💞🐶

[@a_Chinese02]

I noticed that you said forked a lot so I was wondering if you are watching The Good Place??

[@spunksprinkledsurprise9059]

I think that if Love had done the whole “I can fix him trope” we might be asking ourselves if it is really a subversion of the trope if everyone just acts accordingly to the trope and then gets to live a happy ending. Like at that point they’re basically playing out the basic flaws of romance characters just to the extreme. Idk if that really makes sense but just what I was thinking

[@haggisa]

Spunk SprinkledSurprise Haven’t watched season 2, so I don’t quite know what happens, but if they had went with the idea of showing a heightened version of the “girl fixes the damaged man” trope, then that would have been called ‘lampshading’ which is drawing attention to something, usually in order to ridicule it.

[@crod9905]

Nah, because she would probably be killed by Joe once he eventually grows tired of her and moves onto another obsession, like with the neighbor.

[@josephinerogers6409]

my girl Julia has Fangirl, Carry On, Eleanor and Park, AND Wayward Son. what a queen

[@amuletangeldevil]

A woman of good taste.

[@haiIeys]

carry on my wayward sooonnnnnnn, they'll be peace when you are donee.

[@nightcorebeatzx8652]

puddleo’crumbs elenore and park was something else 😭❤️

[@ICrystalFox]

eleanor and park was the most controversial and fucked up book of my childhood i can’t believe anyone still thinks it’s a good book.

[@ipsumcontumelia6973]

Eleanor and park is hot garbage

[@gz977]

I loved Beck. She felt more human than any other love interest I have ever seen on TV before. I think the problem with season two was that I didn't believe that Joe could love Love. It didn't make sense for Joe, the sensitive intellectual to love Love, the effortless cool girl.

[@haggisa]

G Z I really liked Beck, too. All of her little flaws and insecurities made her wonderfully realistic. Which is funny, since Beck reminding people of girls they know in real life, is often used as an argument as to why they found her so unlikeable.

[@tiredcat6653]

@@haggisa I loved Beck. Love was actually getting in my nerves tbh, and that I wolf you shit was so cringy I died

[@herlaking2811]

Love was a total nerd.

[@alex_n215]

stale chips the “i wolf you” shit was cringy lol

[@sophiekouhai]

i really liked simpler beck, she went well with simpler season 1, with less relevant characters. i always found love annoying lol, and when she was revealed to be a psycho i was "ohhh... okay".

[@KarlaSofia]

i think the reason for the plot twist was to show how it’s okay for men to do all these things but once women do it it’s unacceptable, the girls are crazy or needy or obsessed, but when guys do it it’s romantic and thoughtful

[@taliatrini2925]

The problem with you? Me.

[@jeremywilson5094]

The “I can fix him thing” would make so much more sense especially because she wants to fix her brother so badly. It would be the same idea where she wants to help joe like she tries to help Forty

[@ChynaDeveroux]

From the beginning Love just seemed off and it was set up almost too easily for her to be the “twist” of the season. This season was kind of messy and I don’t understand why they tried to get us to feel for Joe only for the cycle to begin once again at the end of s2. Plotholes a plenty.

[@Chibibehemoth]

I feel like this season has too many subplots. It was just so weird where at one point it seemed to want to give Joe this redemption arc? Idk it was boring/draggy to me. Love listening to your views on stuff like this!

[@ernesto.carloz]

Do you find it more boring than the first season?

[@thequestion4818]

She really out here rockin princess leia buns huh

[@trlgy]

Video starts : Nobody: Me: LIKE!

[@trinaq]

Yes, my sentiments EXACTLY!✋

[@TH-mg2fy]

I don't get how he stalked her but didn't see she was also psycho

[@user-mi4of6mt7j]

Your version of the ending is EXACTLY what I was thinking & what i would've preferred. I don't think making her a killer in the same way Joe is will service the plot. I think it would be a lot more tragic with the "I can fix him" narrative if she literally kills out of love for him & then he's completely disinterested. I think that'd be so interesting to see especially considering how on edge she would be during season three.

[@mine536]

I really really appreciate this perspective! I genuinely love this show, but I'm not great at thinking about the thematic intentions of the characters and their impact on the overall message of the plot. So hearing a structured critique like this helps me a lot in asking my own questions about why I do like the show so much! :)

[@oluajayi5634]

i think love’s character is a really interesting commentary on how women view each other as competition for love. her main motivate seems to be that she never received the love that she craved and it has caused her to be in constant pursuit of her own view of “perfect” love (this is why she’s so hellbent on having children). whenever she feels that she is finally going to receive the love she craves, she takes out the women she sees as competition. she murders their au paire bc she’s messing with her relationship with forty, the only unconditional love she feels she has at that age and she murders delilah and candace because they’re road blocks for her and joe (also he was involved with both of them at some point). through this lens i think this plot twist for love still displays the toxic role that women play in romance stories that you were talking about. women are pitted against each other yes, but we also feed into that narrative. idk just a thought.

[@LuciaRodriguez-sn5gm]

One of the more painful feelings in the world is seeing a picture or video of a dog THAT cute and not being able to give it a hug ;__; I love her she's beautiful!

[@atkcsc]

My idea of how Love's character fits into the original intention is that the second season widens the ways of privilege that help people literally get away with murder. Love might be a woman, but she and her family are super-rich and "own the LAPD". She gets to create a persona of this sweet, innocent girl because of all her privilege of being rich, white, and good looking. Add to that that she uses all these tropes of what 'an ideal woman' with all those feminine traits supposedly is in the eyes of patriarchal society: caring, compassionate, sweet, looking to make a home and a family, and a cook for heaven's sake. Everything about her says "marriage material" in a rom-com way. And underneath it all is a lying, manipulative, murderous Love, who still wants to be all those things listed above - she's the mirror image of Joe, yes, but in a very stereotypically feminine way. So I think I get what the show was going for and I think they succeeded. What I do have issues with is Joe's remorse - funishment - instant relapse into stalker mode at the very end. He could carry around Crime and Punishment all day, but there still wouldn't be a full parallel between the two. He had a moment of clarity but decided to let it go. I guess if he didn't, there could never be a season 3.

[@maddielois8667]

And when the world needed her most Julia disappeared

[@arabella6814]

I watched season 1 with my mum. Big mistake

[@the_eternal_darkness_8436]

In my opinion, the only reason we sympathize with Joe is simply because he is the protagonist and we see things from his perspective. If this were a show about Love then we would do the same for her as it would be from her perspective. As the saying goes, "A Cillian his the hero of his/her story.*

[@celia1185]

I was literally binge watching your videos for the 5th time and then i came across this one so yeah thanks girl i needed this ur great love u

[@kirapeters8881]

While I really like your take on it, and agree with a lot of it, what I got from season 2 was comparing society’s willingness to forgive a man over a woman for doing the same thing. Especially when you see that Joe no longer loves Love after seeing her crazy truth. Honestly, I’m just mad about Ellie, Delilah, and Forty. I also have to say that I kind of wanted the twist to be Forty secretly having fallen for Joe during the season and him actually being the one to kill Delilah. Definitely a problematic way to go, having a newly known about LGTBQIA+ individual being a murderer (even though that’s kind of the point of the show. Murder I mean.) but as far as making sense plot-wise there were several times where it seemed like Forty was into Joe and it feels like it would make more sense than Love.

[@GoingMerrys]

I definitely got some not-quite-straight vibes from Forty, but I'm glad they did not go with the plot you suggested here tbh. They already did the predatory lesbian trope with Peach in s1, that's enough for me :/

[@kirapeters8881]

@@GoingMerrys I honestly forgot about Peach it's been so long since I watched Season 1. After remembering that I'm kind of glad too. Honestly, the only reason I would have wanted that to happen is that everything leading up to the Love reveal makes more sense if it's Forty than Love.

[@LegioXXI]

"society’s willingness to forgive a man over a woman for doing the same thing." Seeing that women on average get lower sentences for capital crimes like murder or sexual child abuse than men, i truly doubt this claim. If we talk about morally stuff like cheating or lying then i'd agree tho. But not when it comes to crimes.

[@flawedfairytales9808]

@@kirapeters8881 Fourty feels like the better written version of Peach honestly they bearly touched on her issues other then her being in love with Beck. But they are both spoiled manipulators who have relationships where they are the care object to a care taker individual who puts their life on hold for them. Both are annoyances to Joe. Do creepy things to their crushes But Fourty feels more fleshed out then Peach due to Joe being forced to spend more time with him.

[@kapil3627]

i think that joe was actually a great character. not a good person, but a good character. he think what he’s doing is justified because he thinks he’s a good person. that’s why he has his good moments. because at his core, he truly does want good, but in twisted ways, which is what ultimately makes him a bit...insane. a great take on a mentally unstable person.

[@roisinconnolly8337]

We judge people by their actions but judge ourselves by our intentions

[@WolfJulia2001]

Throughout the entire show I wanted Joe to die so bad

[@randymercedes2511]

Amen!

[@tootrashedforthis]

@angel but the only problem with that is that the show would end there. I doubt they are only doing 3 seasons. But hey, you never know.

[@tiredcat6653]

I wanted to Smack Love when she killed my girl Delilah.😭

[@daillestlady]

@angel Lol, I hope so too. He knows she's totally psycho so if she catches him stalking the neighbor, stabby town or a long poisoning for Joe

[@katrinadavidson9270]

@@tiredcat6653 lol Delilah was aggravating. Glad she gone.

[@treshurchest]

Girl I am LIVING for this analysis

[@DendyJungle]

This is like 13 reasons in that the people making it actually care and have good ideas but they can’t decide whether it should be informative and deep or just schlocky entertainment

[@tiredcat6653]

13rw is so shitty now🤢

[@genhorsley3080]

I definitely think there's a missed opportunity to portray Love as Joe's mirror in terms of women's role in this particular trope, but i kinda interpreted the plot twist (more so Joe's reaction than the twist itself) as a means of reiterating that Joe is sick and that this isn't love, and that his actions have nothing to do with the women themselves and everything to do with his selfish fantasy fulfilment regardless of the justifications offered in his manipulative narration. He's seemingly met his perfect match in someone that truly knows and embraces him for the sicko he is, and yet he's still dissatisfied with her because he always will be. You'd hope this was obvious and wouldn't need to be emphasised any further but in all honesty there's a lot of people that think he genuinely acts out of love and that (from what i've seen) has been a big criticism of the show when discussing how social responsibility factors in to a show like this.

[@domination6585]

I don’t sympathize or root for joe. I’m getting tired of him and am waiting for his karma next season

[@justinej4252]

I think that this plot twist is that Joe is able to give reasoning to the actions he has committed, but when Joe sees this side of Love that was a mirror of his actions but yet is so disgusted bc he doesn’t believe that Love is the same as him that Love kills for no reason but he kills to help people it’s almost like Joe is meeting himself but doesn’t realise it

[@leo8812]

I have no idea what “you” is, but I love these videos 🤧

[@trinaq]

Yep, I always click on Julia's videos, no matter WHAT the subject is about!😀

[@rhiannagrande1737]

Leo WATCH IT BITCHHHH RN

[@leo8812]

I’ll be honest, it does sound like a good concept

[@newkidontheblock8662]

"YOU" is okay I thought it was gonna be better but the first episode of season 1 really throws you off the comfort train for the show.

[@lillieladae7463]

ITS A REALLY INSANE SHOW YOU GOTTA CHECK IT OUT

[@LexW5]

My interpretation is that the show really comes down to privilege not just gender roles. Joe’s privilege is being a man and Love’s privilege is being wealthy.

[@elizahlopez]

when i watched season 2, i remember feeling weirded out by the ending. i mean it was interesting at first but everything you said made me realize why. honestly i 100% agree with you! also never noticed the rainbow rowell books in the background, which are my fucking fave😂

[@cattledogandstaffy]

To be honest, I knew the plot twist was coming from ep 1. As soon as Love was getting Joe to try all the new foods, then making the roast chicken, she started her "you" dialogue, as Joe always does in his head. Dissecting and assuming things about their subject of interest (in this case, each other). That scene cemented it for me

[@MiyahElise]

CaptainJacFrost Shes slowly killing him like she did her husband

[@brooklynxbb]

You missed a few things. He didn’t go from stalker to serial killer. He was always a murderer/psychopath as shown in his childhood flashbacks, also he tried to kill Candace and thought he did but turns out he didn’t. Also, Love’s role was a more “I love you no matter what, I’ll do anything for you” role, like a motherly role. And if the anonymous woman we saw at the end of season 2 was his mother, then this season was perfect for that. Amazing set up and transition to be honest, especially since Love became a mother at the end. Love’s character also showed how quick people forgive and like horrible men, but not women (when the roles switched/ the “plot twist”). This season was amazing and a perfect 2nd season to an amazing 1st season. I’m definitely looking forward to season 3. Interesting video though

[@GabrielTheMagolorMain]

Hmmm…curious as to your thoughts on Love in Season 3 as I think she does play to more of these stereotypes that you spoke about. Thanks for the different perspective!

[@crod9905]

Here's my problem with Love as a character. As rare as they are, she doesn't even seem believable as a female serial killer. She doesn't seem believable as just a killer. I look at cases like Jodi Arias, the Novack murders, or any high profile case where a woman was the killer, and she doesn't fit the mold at all. From the beginning, there should've been red flags with some abusive, possessive, unstable, and controlling behavior (while still being charming and seductive) from her as seen with these real life cases. I know Penn Badgley says he doesn't think Joe is a real person, but he's essentially the dreaded "nice guy" that is often seen in stalking cases. Love is just a discount Amy Dunne from Gone Girl.

[@crod9905]

@ Oh yeah, I knew she was insane from the beginning. But it was too obvious and not believable. I get they were trying to make her a "nice girl," but I don't think those are really that dangerous compared to nice guys. I would have rather them made her a Jodi Arias.

[@ola3810]

You're so well spoken i stan an intellectual

[@Myr642]

I feel like Love does portray the toxic roles that women do usually play in these romcom like relationships. I can fix him is love making him jealous to try and get him to murder that dude and bring out joes true nature. The I’m not like other girls trope is what her whole character exuded trait wise; the quirky baker who thinks peaches look like butts. Her killing the two women who would have prevented her from being with joe shows her willingness to push other women aside for a guy (not exactly the same as Rachel but slightly similar is a way) It’s also the first time since forty’s ex that she’s killed (supposedly, I think she killed her husband but that’s another theory). I’m kind of seeing that part as what women will do to protect men. Love seems off from the beginning, the twist was predictable and I think it could have been taken is a better direction or making her characterization more clear. However, I do this the kernels of what they were trying to do are there but they ended up being those I popped ones in the bottom of the popcorn bag. I’m thinking we’re going to get a season three with that ending and the only interesting way I can see them taking it is if the neighbor is Beck’s mom or something and what trouble that would cause (is any of this coherent? It’s 6am and I haven’t slept yet 😂)

[@sumeiyaaden8190]

i was perfectly happy with the show and now you made me realise the potential of love's character! so mad but so glad i could see it.

[@theeblakester002]

this is a great video i always enjoy your analysis. I wonder, however, if an argument can be made for the fact that if season one is about how far we're willing to go to forgive a white man, then season two might be, in part, about how far we're willing to go to forgive a pretty, wealthy, white woman. like, the ways white women, especially wealthy ones, embody thru their various systemic privileges a similar hallowed, dangerous, permissible space in culture. like, i feel like a lot of attention is paid to how wealthy Love is (from what i've seen-cards on the table i mainly watched bc i'm in love with daniel durant so i def pick and chose episodes). idk i think it's an interesting thing to consider

[@theeblakester002]

also i'm a big fan of the hair love some double buns

[@tytwi450]

I feel like loves story was about how girls obsess over guys. Like when I watched it I was like “I low key have obsessed over past crushes I’ve had”. Especially when she was talking about having a perfect life with a husband and stuff. Idk that’s just what I took away from it.

[@insanepoet9]

I think part of the ending was to further portray's Joe's own hypocrisy and complete lack of self-awareness. He's completely willing to murder Beck and everyone she's close to, and yet looks down on Henderson even though neither of them are good people. He considers himself a crusader and a protector while he keeps a man in a glass prison in a storage unit. Some people might argue that maybe he needed someone as messed up as him as a match, but the last minute of the show proves that even if Joe finds someone who is perfect for him, the "right woman" by every measure, he is incapable of changing. That sort of exists as a commentary on the fans of the show who keep making memes about how they'd want to get captured by him any day. Once you fall off the pedestal, he's going to find a new victim, and no amount of Love/love will change that.

[@boaquetzal8225]

I just realized he's the other Tucker

[@jasminecrawford42]

Yep, reminding me I've liked all the dry humor every guy type characters Penn Badgely has played except for Dan Humphrey even Joe who is a more outright psychotic tf more entertaining version of Dan Humphrey. He even trades a leggy blonde for a tiny brunette 😂.

[@teshalis]

hmmm interesting, i actually enjoyed this plot twist because of what it means for season 3. The fact that Love is the same vein of crazy introduces a new set of complications for Joe when he attempts to repeat pattern of finding a new girl/person to "protect". Love is going to prevent him from stepping out on his family, which I think is a great setup for season 3. I also think this twist shows that Joe clearly has a savior complex and the fact that Love isn't an innocent girl that needs his protection causes his view of her to change. It says A LOT more than if the narrative was that Love forgives him for being a murderer, because the audience has already done that in season 1 and continues to do that by watching season 2 and rooting for Joe again. I don't see why season 2 should repeat the same exact theme or follow the same structure. Idk i actually appreciate the twist because it says something new/ different than season 1.

[@Spoopybat]

This has nothing to do with you but I'm glad that you included like the Rachel and Ross scene because they were such a toxic couple yet people still ship it so hard.

[@MiyahElise]

Kodi Angel all of them were toxic for each other

[@EiscueBall]

1:47 Gan Gumphrey I'm dead

[@AniimeOCD]

The only thing I took away from this season was that the Quinn twins had a tennis pun for names. It still makes me tear up thinking about it.

[@imsadlol4528]

honestly the name forty kinda pissed me off at first but ~forty quinn~ sounds pretty badass

[@ResidentReveler]

This show is basically Dexter minus the badassery.

[@killlerkai18]

From a visual standpoint I liked season 2 better

[@n1a316]

Honestly I think the whole Love thing made sense with the point of the show. In romantic comedies, the male love interest sometimes stalks the woman, and does a lot of things like Joe but it’s always romanticised. But usually in similar movies, when a woman acts the same way, they’re often seen as crazy and the male doesn’t want her. Its the same in YOU, Joe does all these creepy things, but he believes he’s good, but when Love turned out to be a psycho, he didn’t love her anymore, and saw her for what she is, a crazy psycho, just like how men in other movies see the stalker women for what they are, a stalker.

[@nancySIX]

Maybe she is a mirror that’s being held up in front of Joe. So he can see that the behaviour he displays is toxic, when he sees it objectively he can actually see how crazy he is for explaining so much of what he is doing away. But I’m with you though did not like it either.

[@TheCoolmaster131]

Love is there is to show us that Joe can't be satisfied. Even when he found a perfect match, someone that sees him. He doesn't want that. Like the last scene

[@rocketjet5813]

I really liked Candace. I was hoping they wrote her differently or something and had her more of an antagonist. Like she deserved better. It was so cool when she came at the end of season 1 as a badass confronting joe and then in season 2 she just becomes soft almost? It makes sense with the human condition for him in a position of power but still I wish she woulda done more maybe? Still like her tho, it seems to be a consensus with everyone I talked to that they do not like Candace.

[@daniecurb8724]

rocket jet I liked her as well. I was looking forward to help really bringing the angst and driving Joe even crazier. I think they dropped the ball on this character. Especially when they made her seem like a big deal with her resurrection.

[@rocketjet5813]

Dani Ecurb yeah! She came back from the dead and then just to be murdered by love? Sad

[@daniecurb8724]

rocket jet It was sad, useless, and pointless. When characters come back from the dead they should have a more poignant role. Plus I didn’t like how they disregarded her trauma in order to romanticize Joe and Love. I get it’s from Joe’s perspective, but we were still able to feel and see Beck’s point of view. We put our self in her shoes while still being able to see the situation from his POV.

[@rocketjet5813]

Dani Ecurb right? And the hate on Candace was not okay. I don’t even know why most didn’t like her. I think her chasing after the man who tried to murder her just so she could save the lives of others was a nice story. Whatever 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@daniecurb8724]

rocket jet Exactly, this show was interesting but sick. It became ridiculous when they tried to vilify the victim. The fans of that concept could be considered even more sick.

[@moonie1488]

i’m not the biggest fan of the show itself, however i love it’s intentions in terms of parasocial relationships. with youtubers, celebrities and hell even twitch streamers... people gain an attachment to them but most of the time they don’t know who we are

[@shoobamocha]

The first season was good because it was a cheesy little Lifetime show that was actually pretty interesting and now they're trying way too hard and it's just not hitting as naturally. I rewatched season 1 before this season and enjoyed it way more for its simplicity

[@surprisesdaedra2863]

Honestly, I feel that Love was pretty much explained pretty directly. Joe just keeps imagining women he obsesses over as this ideal fantasy which you could see with Beck. So I just thought there’d be some irony to Love being his undoing and that maybe he’d open his eyes a bit more and control himself. Or, you know, just straight up go to jail as he deserves since the whole Candace thing straight up made me hate him.

[@MrBug-qp1zz]

Am I the only one who hated Joe at the end of the second season and actually sympathised with Candace? Her not being taken seriously and not listened hit really close to home for me...

[@flawedfairytales9808]

Candance got shafted its like the writers didn't know what to do with her after they brought her back. I wish Candance and Fourty had teamed up to take down Joe. Since they had the motive and it would of lead to great character development for them both. Candance being forced to confront her Trauma and Fourty being more independant. I like their characters but give them a reason to be in the story.

[@HaHaLooLoo]

This was super thought-provoking. I think season 2 is on theme with the show because yes they're looking at violence against women, but it also looks at toxic dating culture, which both men and women fall victim to in various ways. I think this season was to show the childhood trauma behind joe's actions as a contextualisation, not as a justification. As Love tells Joe in the finale, she loved him for who he really was, while he was only in love with the fantasy "healthy" version of her. Then when she showed her true colours, the illusion/fantasy he imposed on her was shattered, and Love perfectly mirrors Joe's issues in so many ways. That's why people project fantasies onto their partners, they don't want to look inward and address/heal their own traumas and insecurities and want other people to make them feel happy and loved. I think that is now, why, when Love shows her true colours, Joe is reviled at her, but really by extension at himself. Hence the end of the series where he goes on to creep on the new neighbour "you", the one reading Jane Austen, the pattern of his unhealed trauma continues. And this links back to the show theme where men, toxic and unhealthy, keep on hurting women because they refuse to do their healing work.

[@howisnicole]

Was I the only one who was really mad when Forty died???

[@MiyahElise]

No i was glad he’s dead

[@Moon-oh5us]

The biggest plottwist to me was finding out that Forty was straight

[@hhhulw0098]

I don't even watch "You" but I agree honestly. It's really interesting to see you just sit there and talk to us about this, not gonna lie, keeps me intrigued :)

[@kaeykes]

how... ... ...how can you agree with her opinion on something you didnt watch

[@hhhulw0098]

@@kaeykes based on her explanations basically, I just get it even tho I don't watch it honestly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@kaeykes]

@@hhhulw0098 i suppose but itd be a pretty biased opinion

[@EmmaryMarshall]

if you haven’t watched it yet, you definitely should! It really makes you question your morality

[@user-ly2cm6zk5l]

You took the words out my mouth. The plot twist of love being as crazy as him was surprising at first but felt...defeating