How Game of Thrones Failed Sansa Stark's Storyline

[@Ccamero123]

It was ridiculous that Little Finger would turn Sansa over to the Boltons. She was much to important to him. I almost through book at the T.V.

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

Yeah especially since I read the book before this happened. Not only does it make no sense for LF as a character but also narratively. It was really frustrating because towards the end of season 4 it looked like they were going to set up the jeyne Poole plot and build up Sansa’s arc in the vale, but they must’ve changed their minds.

[@billtodd2194]

Yep, he had too much an attraction to her to hand her over to a known sadist to abuse.

[@01379]

Lol paper beats "rock."📖>📺

[@tsuritsa3105]

You are the FIRST commenter on KZbin I have seen who pointed out that Sansa was taking Jeyne Poole's place from the books, and that DnD - who I don't love, aren't great and made major mistakes - were in a bind where Sansa was concerned for plot, time and budget reasons. Thank you.

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

Yep, you summed it up perfectly. I don’t like defending DnD but you HAVE to look at some of their constraints to give a balanced argument. Thank you for your comment!🙏

[@worldadventuretravel]

It's weird timing putting this out years after GOT wrapped. But I watched it all the way through, as I never thought much about Sansa's character at the time other than the lingering confusion over why she vouched for Littlefinger when she was at the Vale. D & D ruined GOT for me permanently. I'll never re-watch the show, and I doubt I'll ever read the books knowing there are some things in there like your description of Jane Pool that I don't even want filling my head. Besides, GRRM is never going to finish the book series so why invest thousands of hours into reading them anyway when we will never get an ending? Such an epic moment in TV, all shot to hell by horrible show creators that fell victim to their own hubris. I like watching these fan videos occasionally though for the nostalgic value of when the show was actually good. Martin really did create an amazing world of stories and characters. It's too bad it was so horribly represented in the end and the author can't stop going off on side-projects so we'll never see how the whole thing concludes.

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

I can’t recommend you read the books, but I will tell you that after the first book it diverges so much. Almost every character is fundamentally different. Each character is definitely more grey and the story is so much more complex. It’s a great read but incredibly frustrating when you realise there’s no more books and you’re not even close to getting an ending 😭 What I will say is that D&D where in a very bad situation after season 4 finished. They had to make important cuts and had no idea how GRRM is going to get to the endings he told them. They wanted to adapt the books but GRRM has grown a story too complex and too spread out. I honestly don’t know how anyone can fit the content needed for a satisfying ending in 2 more books. It’s practically impossible. I’ve heard rumours that GRRM actually finished the next book in 2017 but it was so bad he scrapped it and restarted. Idk if that’s true though🤷‍♂️.

[@arash8761]

How can you spend "thousands of hours"? The whole series is 4,000 pages so far. Even at only 1,000 hours, that's 15 minutes per page.

[@nanakmccann]

The fact that the show ended four years ago and there still is not another book, makes it hard for me to blame the show runners. They were hired to adapt book into TV. It’s Martin’s story. It’s his fault he can’t finish it.

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

Yep, GRRM needs to take a large portion of the blame. But the show runners didn’t do any favours with some of the decisions they made.

[@nanakmccann]

@@FilmCritiqueHub definitely agree. From what I read it sounds like they wanted to be done with the show and rushed through the last two seasons. Pretty sad, early seasons were so great.

[@kit888]

My impression in the book was that Sansa was learning to be a good queen, not as a ruler but as a supporter of a king. She was learning to get along with people, run a household, lead other women (as in the siege situation) but apolitically.

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

Interesting take, I didn’t really consider that. I think in the books she will become a more single ruler as she’ll likely be key in using the vales resources to help either retake WF for herself or help defeat the WW. But after she does that, I agree with your take that she will likely become a good supporter of a king. I think it’s unlikely she’ll be a single ruler for the north (lady of WF) and it’s impossible that she will be queen in the north. That’s almost certainly something D&D made up.

[@billtodd2194]

@@FilmCritiqueHub 100% agree, Queen in the North made no sense. They go through all of that to have a unified peace and Sansa just ups and nopes out and everyone else is okay with Bran being king over them? Nuh uh, if Sansa dropped, every family would and it'd start the wars all over again.

[@traviscue2099]

Agreed, this is more GRRM's fault. Like seasons 1-4 clearly show that D&D have high talent, they're just not good writers.. But amazing adaptors. The problems come from cutting out minor stuff at the start (that grow into bigger plots) and these actors becoming big names. Cutting out Bran for an entire season is what they should of done with Sansa and Jamie (Give us a sneak peak of him in the riverlands). If they had kept mance alive and had Jayne Pool in the background I think it would of worked.. But yeah its far more complicated than just "Dnd bad".

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

I would’ve loved to see your version of play out, the only problem is Sansa and Jamie were beginning to become big names at that point. I don’t know if they would be capable of removing them for a season. Some casual fans also wouldn’t approve of it since they’re both fan favourites. It’s my personal opinion that AFFC and ADWD is extremely difficult to adapt on screen. Trying to adapt the show after S4 with the material given must’ve been a nightmare and clearly D&D are out of their depth here.

[@traviscue2099]

@@FilmCritiqueHub Oh I'd agree with that completely. After season 4 new contracts were being written up as well, and these unknown actors were now big names who the fans would of demanded to see. Oh the amount of characters added after the show had begin explains exactly why they left so many out.. Since at the time they didn't see them as big players. I think in the future we're going to see a fully animated version of this series (If the books ever come out) before we get another live action version.. I get the feeling the universe is going to grow a lot via HBO over the next few years.

[@snowpoler]

At the same time... they could have chosen to adapt a completely finished book series.

[@traviscue2099]

@@snowpoler Oh for sure.. But it seems like the idea was that GRRM would finish them. Or at least have the next book out before they got that far.. Season 5 ended in 2015. 4-5 years to finish winds is a lot of time.

[@V1rtuaMa3s]

Great commentary! It's nice to hear something other than hyperbolic hatred for D&D. I'd love to watch more of these light comparison videos

[@ryanelliott71698]

The worst thing is that even in S5 Jeyne Poole still could’ve been included or in some form. Like just have Jeyne maybe find her friend in the Vale or maybe Roose finds and Arya look alike. Yeah it would be a bit contrived than in the book, but it certainly would’ve been better. Still wouldn’t fix S5’s squishing 2 books into 1 Season when it would’ve been stretched to 2 if not 3 seasons.

[@billtodd2194]

I think the other interesting question is who Sansa would have ended up married to in the books? She seemed on the kind of arc where she realizes that Tyrion was a smart and decent guy and would be a good ruler is more important than his deformities, but he also didn't seem to have interest in her and they could easily have that marriage annulled while he was in Essos with Dany, especially if she were to be betrothed to Harry the Heir. Even if the books ended without her being married, I highly doubt her story would end in the show fashion and imply she was going to be Elizabeth-esque virgin Queen of the North, she knows she needs stability and heirs.

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

I actually have no idea who she will marry in the books, I agree with you that I don’t think Tyrion but who exactly is complete speculation. D&D really want to push this narrative that women don’t need men, and girl power! Which again is a complete misinterpretation of her character arc and is a character trope that has been rinsed to death by media. I actually don’t think D&D deciding her to rule the north on her own and whatever was a big deal. It’s one of the endings that didn’t leave such a sour taste in my mouth than the other characters. I actually think her character development and her journey which is the major problem not her actual ending (I can live with it somewhat 😂).

[@billtodd2194]

@@FilmCritiqueHub I'll grant it wasn't the worst part of the ending, sadly by far, but like I said below, her up and leaving with the North to rule as queen is dumb and logically should have resulted in Dorne, at the absolute minimum, also breaking away. They should have just left her as ruler of Winterfell and not Queen in the North. Besides, it's not any king, it's her own brother.

[@katierasburn9571]

honestly? i liked where sansa ended in the show, it felt poetic honestly that the one stark so eager to leave and not be a stark anymore was the one that remembered most what is was to be a stark and to fight for the north. The character who started with no power ending up being the one with it. I think if they'd had more time (and been better writers) they could have really developed this, had her work it out herself, scheme in her "i'm so innocent i don't know what you could possibly be doing" kind of way and gain her throne as queen of the north, finishing what her family started. I personally don't believe she would reject being a Stark

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

I 100% agree with you completely. I don’t mind her being queen in the north, my main problem was how she achieved it. In a perfect world they would have fleshed out her character in the Eyrie before bringing her north(if that’s where her story does end), but instead they decided to send her north to become a victim again. Her outsmarting LF was fine, but the way she did it was again disappointing. Her reclaiming her stork identity is something I thought would happen, however I feel like it is in fact Arya who will lead the north. I might explain it in depth in another video but essentially Arya is the one who’s whole story arc is her reclaiming her identity. She changes identity multiple times; she doesn’t know who she is. While also being one of GRRM central 5 characters, she also is the only one who can relate to the common folk, something Sansa doesn’t really deal with. I think it’ll be Arya who will reclaim her stark identity. Saying all that, Arya sailing west and Sansa being queen in the north is something I really liked in the show, so no problems there.

[@billtodd2194]

You're the first person I've found who guessed a similar trajectory for Sansa as me based on the books. I thought she'd learn the game from Littlefinger in the Vale, get married off to Harry the Heir, Harry would of course die, Littlefinger would use the fact he's currently Lord Protector of half the kingdom to make some sort of play for the throne (or get Sansa the throne with him as power behind), and Sansa would use what she learned to turn on Littlefinger and take the power herself. That'd leave her in a strong position until Dany came over. She was one of my potential candidates for ending on the throne (I was 100% sure Dany wasn't), but would have also seen a return to rule just Winterfell or the Vale as possible. I also agree that Arya returning to being a Stark is more fitting, Nymeria is still around for a reason. Maybe not as a ruler of Winterfell as she's never had interest in that, but a return to more Stark ways rather than being little ninja assassin like in the show.

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

Yes! I’m glad you agree. I find it interesting you think there’s a possibility that she would get the throne. D&D did confirm that GRRM told them that Bran was going to sit on the iron throne by the end of the series so that kinda rules out that possibility. I’m not quite sure about what Arya could really do than in winterfell than rule. I agree with your take that Arya doesn’t have any real interest to rule, but after the battle with the white walkers and much of the north being devastated by it, her ability to relate with the common people will make her a GREAT candidate to rule the north. You’re right about her being a little ninja assassin in the show being stupid. D&D completely misjudged what her characters about.

[@billtodd2194]

@@FilmCritiqueHub Sure, post show I don't think Sansa would end up on the throne if the books ever get finished. But preshow I thought she had a non0 chance. Preshow my strong assumption was that Dany and/or Jon would die vs the white walkers, which would leave the throne empty for I assumed a Stark. Jon would have been my first guess for king if he lived, but Sansa was my #2 Stark (Sansa wouldn't necessarily be crowned, but married to a nonJon king was another possible route). Martin wasn't going to break all story conventions and we are following the family. I didn't consider book Brann for the throne because of his age and it not being set up at all, but hypothetically with 2 books and some time passing it could be reasonable.

[@billtodd2194]

To go into a bit more detail, Martin said something about the ending being bittersweet, but he's also not crazy and all about unexpected subversion. Among the prophecy bits about The Prince Who Was Promised there were the story bits about how the last time Lightbringer was forged in his love's blood or something like that. Dany's plotline did not give me the implication she was destined to rule at the end. She meant well, but every attempt she made ended poorly. To me, that hinted she would not last to end on the throne. Combining those, my guess was that Dany was going to die, either to boost Jon or being boosted by Jon in the final battle to beat the white walkers. Jon...I dunno, his death didn't seem a given, but I also just didn't see him as the obvious throne candidate either. Going the route of the Maester Aemon and giving it up to serve the Night's Watch would work. Edit: post show and knowing Dany goes mad (...do we know that for sure?...) tbh I'm less sure what would have happened in the books to both allow her to live and then go mad. I 100% did not ever see Cersei being the last villain. The books leave off with her being incompetent, paranoid, and Jaime declining to go back to help her, so I assumed her story as ruler was basically over. I mean, the books opened with the walkers, so structurally the final villains should be the walkers after the political fight is over.....Oh, oh, what if Dany goes mad, Jon kills her and that's the love sacrifice used to power up vs the walkers?

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

I have so many ideas of how the books will end but I want to save them for a video I make in the future. What I will say though is that before season 8 was released GRRM stated that the show and books ending will remain vaguely in line. HOWEVER, after season 8 was released GRRM was very sure of the fact that the show ending and his ending will be NOTHING alike. I’m really thinking that apart from Sansa and Arya, GRRM had thought D&D had just streamlined the story to get to his ending. (Remember he told them how each character would end in the books at around D&D making season 3/4), Danny being killed by Jon, Cersei and Jamie dying to some rubble, Arya going west of Westeros and killing the knight king, etc. is all made up by D&D. I’m almost certain Danny WILL NOT go mad like in the show. And you are also correct that Cersei will not be the final villain. She will almost certainly be overwhelmed by Euron (who will have a dragon) and FAegon, who will likely die earlier than people expect. She will flee to casterly Rock instead and rule there. So similarly to the show, Danny and everyone up north will come down after defeating the WW and finish her off. Danny being sacrificed by Jon is something I’m not too sure about. I’m not too sure how the battle with the WW will go, and what role Bran will play. But I’m a lot more certain about everything else such as what happens in KL(kings landing) and everywhere else in Westeros.

[@singingphysics9416]

You are very insightful. Thank you for the great video 😊

[@OmgItsTania]

Great vid! New sub, looking forward to seeing more content.

[@mresponsible]

Great vid!

[@FilmCritiqueHub]

Thank you 🙏