The Real Reason Why Technology Is Degrading In 40k

[@LordEverlost]

Tech Adept: what if we try refilling the ink cartridges rather than forging new ones? Tech Priest: ... *Charges Plasma Pistol*

[@angry_zergling]

Yeah that isn't just criminal it's straight-up heresy. Even today.

[@Prich319]

@@angry_zergling Epson is Dark Mechanicus confirmed.

[@kronos661]

​@@angry_zergling In what kind of hellhole are you living?

[@Vollification]

MUTANT!!!! >:(

[@Vollification]

@@angry_zergling It's funny because it is XD

[@MrPlainsflyer]

The reality of a chaos daemon literally jump-scaring inventors is also a good reason to do some pretty slow research

[@TheFatalcrest]

XD "My lord I've discovered a new array system in this STC- " *Warp Rift tears open a hole in reality* "My Lord. Delete that last transmission."

[@spnked9516]

Pretty hard to encourage innovation when a string of inspiration could lead to accidentally creating a Hellraiser box that summons Slaaneshi daemons to to tickle your taint with crab claws.

[@jtjames79]

​@@spnked9516 That's some kinky heresy.

[@Alexander_Kale]

If magic and spells can be done, then you can probably do magic by accident. The idea of writing a new design, or change an existing design, only for said design to then complete an accidental summoning circle or create a mechanical curse, just because you put the wrong thing into the wrong place is so very much 40k....

[@MrPlainsflyer]

@@Alexander_Kale exaccccttttlllyyyyyyyy

[@amoryblaine5099]

This is one of the reasons why 40k is so cool. A society so ancient and with such continuity, that nearly all technology ( scientific and social) has been discovered, tried, failed, forgotten and rediscovered countless times. Now the imperium more or less successfully trundles along atop the ruins.

[@insiainutorrt259]

Kinda like reality.... lota things today that aint new whatsoever....

[@travisbishop782]

I'm not sure if that's cool, or just idiotic.

[@harbl99]

IRL China had a big problem with that. Ming and Manchu scholars had to deal with the sheer massive backlog of everything that had already been tried over the preceding two millennia. One of the classic books of Chinese science was called something like _Gleanings from the Great River_ , because the author was horribly aware that nothing he was writing was OC, he was just providing footnotes to the greats.

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

@insiai.... like what? the obly time where this happened on a large scale was after the collapse of western rome where they had tp reinvent tons of stuff over the next centuries. also, real life isn't technologically regressive or even stagnant; not even close

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

this video and most other material makrs it seem like they aren't rediscovering things, and are regressive on the whole. why is it cool? that's not how any long lived society ever has or ever will work

[@markferguson5924]

Had to wind back at 28:50 to make sure Arch was still talking about the Imperium and didn't say 'GW is in essence experiencing a competency crisis.' 'Collapse of the ability to maintain complex systems despite historical success due to rising indolence and incompetence', indeed. I'm surprised he restrained himself!

[@longrange1977]

I don't think the timing of this upload is a coincidence, do you? 🤣

[@logangrimnar3800]

Imagine a civilization Boeing through something like that

[@metatron9161]

Lol gw blacklisted this sorry nazi

[@Reddotzebra]

The lower levels of the tech-hierarchy are indeed those that invent the most in 40k, the modifications done to the engine of a souped-up chimaera might send a proper tech priest into a feedback loop of apoplectic rage, but they WORK...

[@Hellsong89]

Necessity the mother of all inventions. If you have only one ship to get out of the planet that is being actively being invaded by (pick your poison), then its likely lower level adept might round about few corners when it comes to getting it working and in case of missing spares, might invent ways to do it as hail mary attempt not to die rather horrible death by said poison.

[@robertnelson9599]

The problem is that this modification is like the first guy to build a car. It is a cool idea but if no one else learns about it, it will be forgotten.

[@superhobo666]

​@@robertnelson9599 There is a couple other problems. Almost everything being made is being done by pretty tightly controlled forge worlds or mechanicus worlds, you'll have to get your new designs to one of those worlds, and somehow have enough plot armour to survive interrogations and get your designs approved, provided those worlds even have the ability to make changes to their STC's or make new ones. Also,, a lot of those planets don't even use the same versions of STC's or the same type of STC system, or even have fully working STC's, so your designs might not even be compatible with the designs of other planets, or the whole imperium.

[@chuckwood3426]

@@superhobo666 Naa. A lot of low level tech is being produced on the world its being used on. Local Imperial guard regiments source most of its basic equipment from the areas around where they recruit. Its only the fancy stuff that is being made on a forge world.

[@Ewil.Bluetooth]

Bringing back the Primarchs, really any of the loyalists should have changed course of the stagnated empire. Vulcan will be impossible to stop. Guilleman maybe not does any inventing himself but surely he would see the huge problem and fix it as soon as he can.

[@BismarckDidNothingWrong]

Mind you that there is also the Problem that the Magos's (political) position is dependent not just on his competence, but also - and more importantly - his knowledge. There is a rational reason for any given Magos that knows something the other Magi don't know to keep his knowledge to himself, which accelerates the decline/loss of knowledge, as ambitious Magi might get rid of their bosses without learning everything he had to teach.

[@DetectiveLance]

And just as likely an Ambitious Magos overextended themselves and was subsequently removed from existence while still having secrets not passed on. Of course this information would be lost even if all the Admech uploaded what they knew to cloud storage or a big library database.

[@BismarckDidNothingWrong]

@@DetectiveLance there is also that, that‘s true

[@TheKlink]

@@DetectiveLance i thought they had the noosphere?

[@DetectiveLance]

@@TheKlink They do, and don't tell me they don't lose stuff mislabeling the folder they put something in. Or left a folder with a passcode that no one else knows. Or told anyone where those folders/files were even deposited on the fuxking noosphere!

[@alexmin4752]

@@TheKlink Noosphere is just Interrnet. You have to upload the data there. And if you wan't to keep it secret, you don't upload data to the Internet.

[@tyrannosaurusimperator]

4:42 Galileo was imprisoned, not for heliocentrism, which he had the support of several cardinals, but because, his patron, the Pope, suggested Galileo write a book about a theoretical debate comparing Geo- and helio-centrism. Galileo proceeded to make the advocate for geocentrism a caricature of the Pope and an idiot. He was sentenced to house arrest, where he continued to teach and eventually died of alcoholism and gout.

[@calumdeighton]

It also kinda helps like in BattleTech, the inhabitants didn't keep nuking themselves into the Stone Age

[@yurioorlov177]

Well the Capellans did have all those Nukes they couldnt use on the Taurians, And we all know the favorite Target of the Free Worlds League is the Free Worlds League. And Before a Certain Hanse, Steiner and Davion went at each other as often as they would at Kurita. Nukes were a plenty until they nuked the Nuke Factories....

[@irishijo1]

Cant have a new king without some nuking.

[@kybercat7]

@@yurioorlov177 no the tureans nuked their own planets to tell the Capellans in no uncerten terms GET OFF MY LAWN!

[@KillerOrca]

Also Comstar fucking around. Anyone who was trying to recover new stuff tended to get stabbed or shot.

[@Kingwolf_555]

@@KillerOrca yeah it doesn't help when the interstellar telecommunications company who has a monopoly on tech doesn't want any of the savages figuring out how a toaster works.

[@knightofyourlife]

An extraordinary sedentary system, where the majority of people in positions of power will be at least marginally incompetent at their Job. Arch you have just described the British government, 'Perfectly'.

[@Damian_Ravenscroft]

and 99% of the companies which are operating in UK

[@NetMoverSitan]

The US isn't much better, full of those in charge that are unfit to run their OWN lives, yet still believe that they can run the lives of others.

[@_Ekaros]

Or even if they are competent, their main job is well not good of people, but their own gaining of power and continued existence...

[@intenzityd3181]

All institutions operate like that, it's essentially "Bio-leninism". Every organisation recruits and promotes solely based on loyalty and nepotism so end up with useless incompetent people in important positions.

[@baivesan]

I'd argue he described almost all goverments, universities, corporationns etc. on Earth right now.

[@baddragonite]

Y'know that kind of explains why the mechanics became so modification heavy, if your piece of tech is a holy relic and you can't put shock absorbers in the jackhammer then just put the shock absorbers in your arms instead

[@NathanCassidy721]

Someone brought this up in a Lutien video that he did on a he Mechanicus. The field of engineering is basically about repeating the same process shown to them by the senior engineer, which is mostly maintenance. When asked how it works, none of the engineers can tell you nor can their supervisors because they have been doing the same thing for so long that they forgot what the process is for. So it’s not entirely ridiculous for it to become a religion like the Mechanicus.

[@Hisu0]

It's a huge problem in the heavy industry, by the way. Say the company bought a factory built in the 70s, that makes some kind of polymers, and wants to increase its output. The funds are there, the engineers are there - but since the system was built in the 70s, none of the engineers who built it are around, most aren't even alive by now, and those who are around, they only know how to maintain it. Worse still, in half a century, lots of blueprints are just plain lost to all sorts of unresolved administrative shakeups (like switching from paper to film, and from film to digital) that, while not impossible to fully correct, are rather costly and without any impact on the operations, so that can gets kicked further and further down the road, until no one really knows where it is.

[@NathanCassidy721]

@@Hisu0 Yep. And when you combine that with the compentcy crisis, administrative bloat on the upper management, and the simplification of a lot of tech, you have a recipe for the Dark Age of Technology. They never intended it but 40k is one of the few properties that really understands human nature and civilization despite being a over the top grim dark setting.

[@Alexander_Kale]

In my experience, it is the other way around. THe old guys usually DO understand how the machine works, because more often than not, they have been there when those things were put into place. The problem arises when those guys end their tenure without the higher ups having realised that the new guys were never cometently briefed on the machines, and usually the old guys themselves make sure that doesnt happen.

[@p_serdiuk]

This is somewhat counter-balanced by the fact that very often, given the current rate of the technological progress, re-inventing such machines from the ground up using modern CAD and manufacturing technologies results in far greater output and smaller maintenance costs. It's just a far bigger upfront investment. One famous example of this is how it's impossible to re-create the Saturn V rocket nowadays, because the technological base and engineering expertise is gone, but modern rockets like the Superheavy can achieve far more than the Saturn V while being reusable. But, this rate of progress is unsustainable so eventually we WILL need to learn how to preserve knowledge properly.

[@jrr7031]

​@Hisu0 case in point, Voyager 2. The code used in its opwrating system barely exists anymore. Its essentially a dead languafe like Latin. Plus, those who wrote and coded and engineered it are dead. So, thats a perfect example of that

[@aaronbosen6743]

The really screwed up thing about the situation with the imperium of man's tech in Warhammer 40k is how when you really think about it, how actually plausible it is especially when you compare it to similar situations in settings like Battletech where there are tech worshipping cultists but technological advancement does occur slowly but surely even while regression does in other areas. There's legitimately xenos species that use the warp in their technology in W40k. There's legitimately demons being bound to machines xenos tech that is dangerous for humans simply to be near and more. Even technology based off of actual normal established physics based principles like a very good chunk of Jokaero, Eldar and Tau technology is often straight up impossible to interface with existing technology for the simple reason that the beings that built it never thought of or intended it to be interfaced with existing human technology. Add in that there is no centralized schooling system in the setting, and even the various sub sects of the adeptus mechanicus disagree with each other on how technology is to be used, how or to whjat extent new ideas are tech heresy ect. It's nothing short of miraculous that the imperium of man can maintain a mostly standardized, common and relatively reliable technological base.There's plenty of other similar factions in various settings that can't. Comstar in Battletech for example broke into two warring factions in a dispute about how much effort they should put into restoring previous levels of technology. Most of the inner sphere paid the price.

[@NathanCassidy721]

That's what makes 40k so interesting and riveting despite the Orks and the Power Armor. The setting has a better understanding of human nature that no other IP really has, outside of maybe DUNE. Like take the rise of the God Emperor of Mankind, a god-like figure who tried to make humanity an atheist species trying to replace religion with science and rationalism only to be the one to create the one religion keeping humanity alive with him as the figurehead. In an attempt to eradicate religion, all he did was leave a space open to fill the void. It's almost the perfect allegory for how wokeness took hold.

[@DnBGolf]

I deal with this in my job. Someone installed something decades ago, but it wasn't used in the way the manual prescribes, so now nobody knows how it works or how to make it work when it stops working. Entropy.

[@Sujad]

I hope the 4Chin leak is legit and heads, hands and torsos roll.

[@Big_Mad_Mekaniak_Moon_Toof]

What leak I need to know

[@hashkangaroo]

@@Big_Mad_Mekaniak_Moon_Toof The Madeuppian Heresy, begun it has.

[@Sujad]

@@Big_Mad_Mekaniak_Moon_Toof There was a leak released on 4Chins, supposedly from an insider. It's of course something you'd take with a pinch of salt. Arch has a video on his other channel, The Archcast.

[@ironheadedDoF]

@@hashkangaroo Oh i thought that was the Made-Uppian Heresy :) "It is true because I said it's true" "Sounds like speaking Magic Words, and the magic only works if I agree with you? No, you HERETIC! ::blam::"

[@al-mungus677]

They seems pretty damn unlikely most of it to just delete Harlequins and GKs.

[@05Rudey]

I'm surprised that those Servo Skulls that are bolted on some of the Adeptus Mechanicus members are not used as Databases on how to maintain most systems, much like how we would find a KZbin Video on how to repair something.

[@jimh5491]

If the events in the Mechanicus game are considered canon, then you have the case that some Magos like Reditus can convert themselves into Servitors or Servo Skulls after being mortally wounded in order to preserve at least some of their knowledge to help other members of the Mechanicus, potentially serving as a kind of database for them like you say.

[@GrzegorzCembruch]

Funny how most great things or nations are born as Aristocracies, be it because of their military power or because the person that started the success(be it by war or otherwise) has garnered his offspring enough prestige or resources by his victory to give them a leg up to the point where they can take a throne and entrench it more.

[@_Ekaros]

In context it is important to remember that Imperium knows how to build the machines that build machines. But not necessarily in all fields how those machines work. Like you can build factory that makes CPUs based on design you have on hand, but you have no idea how those CPUs work or how can you design a new one... Could realistically already happen. The photomasks used could already be so complex that we could not recreate them anymore. Delete all current and old designs, and eh can make more, but can't figure out what is actually there.

[@evensgrey]

Bas example. Humans haven't designed most chips for a generation. A HUMAN generation, not a chip generation. They've been too complex for humans to design in the required timeframes since at least the 1990's. What chip designers mostly do is write formal descriptions of chips in hardware design languages, then do the equivalent of compiling them to generate the actual masks. You can do it yourself, even, the tools that you use to configure an FPGA are almost the same, they just compile to the code to configure the internal logic elements in the FPGA instead of creating masks.

[@alexmin4752]

@@evensgrey Well, good luck caclulating the resitances and inductivities for a scheme with 10 billion elements by hand.

[@ARockRaider]

one very similar problem that often happens is as the people who built a company/organization leave for whatever reason the people who now run it probably don't understand why things run the way they do so they either stay lockstep with policy even after it's obsolete or they break a working system with their "improvements"

[@RichardHardslab]

I deal with this at work so much it hurts.

[@ingold1470]

The Imperium's aversion to innovation might be an attempt to prevent this exact thing.. but with daemons.

[@ARockRaider]

@@ingold1470 Very true with the forces of chaos being a very real thing in this universe, it can certainly excuse a lot of zealotry that would be absolutely insane in real life.

[@mpnuorva]

I can't help but imagine a sect of tech-priests who look at the technological marvels of the Golden Age of Technology and how Mechanicus only knows pieces of it and quickly conclude that since humanity used to be so much more advanced, chances are they aren't going to invent anything new anyway.

[@dwaynewrighton8547]

Thats literally the point of the mechanicus Everything that possibly could have been invented, already has been, and is currently lost to time, and it's more efficient to rediscover all this tech by searching for stc's, rather then recreating the tech from the ground up, with no research notes

[@Serahpin]

@@dwaynewrighton8547 STC also refers to the computers that housed all of human knowledge and could design anything you wanted to build using only local resources.

[@Aserbic]

I bathed the Holy SSD's in sacred Holy Water.

[@smilingbandit6900]

painted mine red^^

[@ShadowAimai]

But you *failed* to follow the proper rites, initiate. And please tell me you didn't ALSO forget to perform the following percussion rite?

[@AlexVardr]

As long as it's distilled holy water. That's nun-conductive.

[@KhenWolf]

​@@AlexVardrmineral oil

[@10011110011]

@AlexVardr But i want to conduct nuns

[@gadgetboy4717]

The one thing you forgot to mention is that even if a rebelling world wasn’t immediately stamped out by the imperium it will be torn apart by the other horrors of the galaxy that the empire was defended it against. Because it would now be seen as easy pickings.

[@SpaceWitch144]

Usually, if horrors come, its too late to defend... If not in ultramar kek

[@cptkrank6802]

I kind of think the problem in 40k is that the tech worth understanding is so advanced and complex that human minds can't comprehend it. STC templates are basically instructions for idiots. The Admech crams their brains full of technology to even have a hope of comprehending some of this stuff. It's all been designed by AIs that dwarf human intellect. So you take an STC template and build the thing it makes...and you still have NO IDEA how it works. All that said, the Admech has to understand some technologies, but why try and build a better rocket based on the understanding of rocketry that you have, when you could use this STC template and make a rocket that goes 50x faster, has 200x the range and explodes for 40x the damage? The gulf is so wide between what you could create through innovation and what you could create by following an STC that it's pointless to even try - the ancient's grasp of technology overshadows everything.

[@alexmin4752]

Yeahm I think it's the best explanation. All points of Arch regarding incompetence and societal structure apply to modern corporations but somehow they manage to innovate. And there's a lot of competition between Magoses in WH40k, so "but we have competition" is not an explanation. More likely it's simply impossible for human mind to innovate within self-imposed restrictions of AdMech (ie don't create AI etc). Also, STC itself is an AI. It's known to be able to adapt design and production process for conditions and resources available. It's not just a blueprint/manual. Also, AdMech often innovate and even go as far as reverse engineering xenotech and purifying and studying ships owned by heretics. They just don't suceed often.

[@male272]

I'm so impressed that you applied the Peter to the WarHammer. Love it. Vraks is the perfect manifestation that had it's inevitable outcome.

[@walkialyon8507]

Let's not forget about the excelleration of incompetence; failing upwards

[@iamscoutstfu]

This is 100% an endorsement of Heinleins societal model depicted in Starship troopers. I approve.

[@conradflanagan5003]

Trouble is, even that system would eventually become sedentary, fixed, corrupt and incompetent. If anything, we seem to merely be witnessing the fundamental laws of entropy.

[@iamscoutstfu]

@@conradflanagan5003 I don't actually agree with that prospect. But then, I don't agree with Arch's reasoning behind the lack of innovation in the Imperium, either.

[@p_serdiuk]

@@conradflanagan5003 It's hard to become sedentary and incompetent if you have wars once in a while tho

[@honorguard7616]

new week, new arch video, just when I get home from getting this stent removed (and was in a bad mood, this brightens it.)

[@travisbishop782]

I hope you feel better soon.

[@gso619]

Slight correction on the Galileo thing, since the story is very apt for the mechanicus. The church had no issues with his ideas for the most part. They were disgruntled at his lack of mathematical proof to back up his findings, but they no only let him go around trying to convince people of his idea, he was even allowed to debate many high-ranking priests on the topic until he eventually worked his way up to debating a man called Maffeo Barberini. More commonly known at the time as pope Urban VIII. Galileo was given audience with the motherfucking POPE and during their debate had the mother of all reddit moments by telling the pope that he's reading the bible wrong. Galileo Galilei, in his infinite tact, told the head of the catholic faith that he doesn't know the bible. In his own house. In the vatican. That's the part many people omit from the story - Galileo was imprisoned for heresy (and then had the sentence downgraded to life in gay baby jail, namely house arrest), not for his ideas, but because he insulted the pope to his face.

[@-SRM-]

4:40 The Galileo imprisonment myth reaches far and wide I see lol

[@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447]

what do you mean "myth"? he was indeed placed under house arrest for the rest of his life

[@vonheer7418]

Ya. It's sad to see even with someone as aware as Arch.

[@yokaiou5848]

So we just need an immortal techpriest, with numerous minds in unison, who has worked with Big E to help push the Imperium foward.

[@tomizatko3138]

That would work only temporally work at best or not work at all.

[@yokaiou5848]

@@tomizatko3138 Cawl seems to be doing fine.

[@SpaceWitch144]

​@@yokaiou5848this comment is literaly about him😐

[@Slurpentus]

Arch I believe you are mistaken about Galileo there. He wasn’t imprisoned for promoting heliocentrism, which the church had already supported and accepted under Copernicus. It was his flagrant and unfounded insults levied against the papacy that got him in trouble.

[@tyrannosaurusimperator]

The biggest concern the Church had with Galileo's theories was his math errors.

[@physicalremoval3864]

But much evil church and muh 'enlightenment'

[@voxlknight2155]

Unfounded insults against the papacy are indeed a rare thing. Most everything people say against them is true. The papist heretics have done plenty of actual evil to where making unfounded insults is completely unnecessary when you have so many founded ones.

[@dantejones1480]

The Turian Hierarchy/Empire tries to combat The Peter Principle by trying to carefully promote people, not just simply keep people going up the ladder recklessly.

[@doomguy9049]

Who is that?

[@darklelouchg8505]

@@doomguy9049 Turian Hierarchy is from Mass Effect

[@doomguy9049]

@@darklelouchg8505 oh okay thanks, I never got around to playing any of the ME games so had no idea

[@diggman88]

its tied to Turian honor code. To promote someone above their capabilities and have them fail Is a sign of incompetence on the one who promoted them. For an individual to recognize their unsuitably for a position and step down from it is treated with a good deal of respect.

[@phreakazoith2237]

The Last Chancers are full of citizens who just wanted to know how their alarm clock works.

[@awayfromhome3741]

I was in some company with the reverse Peter principle. We elevate an incompetent, until he become, acceptable ;)

[@SDGrave]

Arch, do you consider the Empire to be a (dystopian) representation of the managerial state?

[@br9809]

I'm not Arch but 40k certainly. 30k much less so.

[@Reddotzebra]

Pretty much, yeah. In a way it's authoritarian in exactly the way the current progressives want a state to be. It's just focusing on bigger problems than their feelings.

[@pieguy2011]

I wouldn't. The imperium has far to much respect and love for the idea of humanity.

[@zoompt-lm5xw]

​@@pieguy2011 good point

[@pieguy2011]

@zoompt-lm5xw thank you.

[@OzymandiasRex]

Gatekeep lads, or lose what you love.

[@MMFWCLWHOOPWOOP]

From your lips to the God emporers ears friend

[@rusm5710]

Loose ya bowels

[@reefarolla32]

Its gone mate, just find a new hobby.

[@danielcharnock8975]

It's already dead.

[@kilgoretrout413]

It’s just a game bro 😬

[@piop]

Great content as always. But as a history enthusiast, I need to comment about Galileo. Arch is wrong (or rather repeating an old anti-Catholic myth) on two points. - Galileo was not imprisoned and was not treated badly. His sentence was house arrest understood as a ban on leaving the Papal State, so something like having his passport taken away. He did it later anyway and no one punished him. -There were several reasons for the trial (it really was complicated and to this day disputed matter), what probably angered the church the most was that he publicly expressed an opinion that the heliocentric theory should result in a different understanding of the Holy Scripture. So it was not really the priests who poked their nose into science, but the scientist into theology (and the trial was mostly a scientific conference, at least for the standards of its time). The myth of Galileo's trial itself is more extensive, but that's all about Arch's statement.

[@NetMoverSitan]

Then Big Papa Ultrasmurf and THAT guy appeared... 5:15 - Trazyn the Infinite put it best in the factions trailer of Battlefleet Gothic: Armada 2. 13:23 - As a certain politician turned emperor in a different universe would put it, all who have power fear losing it. Kakistocracy...sounds like where the US and the UK is heading towards, if not there already. Ah yes, the bigger the smile, the sharper the knife or if it goes right, take all the credit, if it goes badly, find someone to blame.

[@GeorgeCowsert]

It's worth noting that the Peter Principle is largely responsible for why Governments as a whole tend to eventually crumble. Businesses, even if they provide important goods and services, are not strictly necessary for society to function. If one dies, it's a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of society. Businesses can easily be replaced by the people whenever one fails. Government? The whole point is that it stays for as long as possible. Government is the bedrock society can grow from, and it is important for that government to recognize its role as nothing more than a stabilizing force. When Government tries to intervene in anything, it's inevitable for that program to become infested with people who have no idea what they're doing. In the context of the Imperium, they have resorted to mass authoritarianism as a response to chaos. It's easy to see why they'd do that since chaos is scary, but the more efficient option is to just roll with the punches. Accept that chaos will take innocent life, and use that as motivation to find a way to ride the tides of chaos safely.

[@dabbinghitlersmemes1762]

"To ride the tides of chaos safely"? What kind of heresy are you babbling about? Really though, the whole imperium cannot be allowed to fail, even on the level of a modern government. There are 200ish other governments, it's not like it's usually too big of a deal. Its biggest asset is decentralisation, that it can try to limit the scope of inevitably incompetence. Although I'm not sure how well that would last, seeing as the "decentralised" US federal government (and similarly, Australia's) has continually reached into more and more stuff that it simply should have no business touching. State or local governments can be allowed to fail, and frequently in the imperium the lower level ones do, so they can be assumed to maintain a little better level of competence.

[@timothyblazer1749]

I was promoted to director of my division. I gave it up after 6 months and acquired a position as a principle, which is the same status as a director, but is only technical. Did very well. And yes, i know this is rare, because you have to admit that you can't do the job you were given in order to do the job you're good at. I've always called this process "graying out".

[@FARBerserker]

Hmm, i never thought about it but . . Apply the Peter Principle to MLP:FIM. What does that say about Celestia, Luna and Discord? Probably also Cadence and Twilight?

[@clementbianchini8651]

For once i would say your point of view is a little dramatic, institution like the Astra Militarum still have pretty good officiers as the weak and incompetent get killed in action because of their own failures in a form of natural selection of the fittest, same thing for the Inquisition and diverse officios, the Schola Progenium seems to do a pretty good job at raising the Imperium intelligence departments and special forces. I do agree with your point for the Mechanicus and Adeptus Administratum though however, i would like to raise the point that in many case, in the Administratum people enter at the bottom and get to higher and higher position up until they become incompetent but the base level should remain roughly the same and if the degradation through the ranks is consistent they their should be a stagnation of skill level and not much of a degradation. Moreover nothing forbid someone naturally gifted to get in the Administratum and rise through the ranks either

[@whisped8145]

15:00 For further examples: The antonym to Symphony is Kakophony. Incessant chaotic noise with no rhyme or reason that only gives you a headache and drives you mad.

[@whisped8145]

Furthermore, the German word for "shit" is "Kacke" ;) "Scheiße" is of yiddish origin.

[@whisped8145]

The Peter Principle is further supported by what we call "Wegloben" in Germany: When you want to get rid of someone but save face, you will transfer or most likely promote him or her out of your section with the highest praise, medals and tinsel. Just be rid of that someone - or sometimes to be rid of a rival. Either it is an obstacle that is now "somebody else's problem". Sometimes that comes back to haunt you as of course now that person is doing damage on a higher level - above you.

[@AShockToTheSystem]

The problem with the Peter Principle is that it assumes good intentions, and completely ignores a factor that is always present in highly hierarchical bureaucratic institutions: malice. It's in such institutions that people with the mentality of a career politician thrive, and these people do not have good intentions in mind. Whether it's for political reasons, or purely for personal gain, they will do anything to get into position of power, and abuse that power. And to get it, they will constantly sabotage anyone that opposes them, actively try to get in their superior's good graces, and promote people that are less competent than themselves but are absolutely loyal. Once these people get what they wanted, the institutions they are in charge of start to collapse, causing suffering to everyone involved. Just like we've seen it happen with our once beloved game and movie companies.

[@JJennerUK]

Points to Cawl casually creating new Space Marines, Anti Grav tech, and upgrading every weapon and armor that a space marine uses. Add in that hes basically the fabriactor general now, i doubt there will be regression from current time line onwards

[@qwefg3]

Ironically there is an example of this within the books of our Favorite Hero of the Imperium and the Imperium guard! Cain got stuck behind enemy (ork) lines and did run into a rather more scientific rather than religious driven tech priest who was good at her job. Yet was kept demoted in the lower ranks. Only through her adventure with our dashing hero, success in stopping the orks... And the 'slight' incident involving the discovery of a very important artifact that the Inquisition was very interested in... Did she get her promotions... And not by the Mechanics... But by the inquisition. So that does make more sense than you might think for our cog boys and girls.

[@Carbonblak]

My son says if you critique something even harshly with something you follow it means you really love it .

[@KingBuilder525]

Dysgenics and the inevitability of the competency crisis. Two of Warhammer 40k's most insidious and inconspicuous horrors.

[@intenzityd3181]

More pertinent to the present day than 40k. They've had plenty of eugenics by that time.

[@wagz781]

The funny thing is, the fix for the peter principle actually creates it's own problems. Said fix is hiring in trained individuals to fulfill the task you would normally promote internally for. The issue there, as readers can likely surmise, is that it destroys a quite large incentive for workers to continue producing as much as possible for their employers. In addition to the issues inherent with putting someone that will typically be unexperienced, disliked by those beneath them, and unfamiliar with the particular, real-world quirks the position holds.

[@AMetroid]

If you look at all human history stagnation is the norm. The first farming was done 100,000 years ago. There were many years of no advancement and numerous cases of knowledge being lost.

[@CountSpartula]

I was always under the impression that local technological improvement isn't rare, but its almost always just a minor improvement over the Imperial baseline and rarely travels outside of that world.

[@GhostOfSnuffles]

Mechanicus Tech Priest (find an intact STC that's literally irreplaceable) Same Tech Priest (soaks STC in holy oil causing it to fail) Same Priest again "Perhaps if i pray to it then it will work again"

[@PanosKalaigidis]

And if the Tech Priest prays hard enough, it just might work.... Praise the Omnissiah!

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

Given how this is 40k, there is a non-zero chance he is right.

[@Alexander_Kale]

Or the other way around. The prayers and blessings might very well be amintenance instruction, the rituals of care might contain sensible information. Heck, even the oils may servean actual purpose. The machine is still going to choke on the incense, though...

[@ayathados6629]

And youll call them crazy when they pray long enough and it starts working again

[@TrexGrimStud]

@@ayathados6629 well no cause the rules of the 40k univere such things can happen .

[@bravojr]

I have it! Think about it Stc's are known to also assemble things, what if the programming of it is so archaic that it's hard to interact with it. Sure you may take apart a clock and understand it, but to get a Stc to produce it, requires a archaic logic that is hard to interface with.

[@BenAbrigil]

indeed the incompetence has become a new standard of competency

[@gfin4576]

4:25 you have a high schoolers understanding of Galileo's situation with the church.

[@evolvedpotatoe866]

I do love these videos were it's not directly about the lore but it's about the understanding why the universe is how it is.

[@Nickle_King]

It’s what I never understood about the system of business we have. Just because you know how a machine you’re operating works and can repair it does not mean you know the business expenses of running those machines across a franchise works and how to manage it all. But that’s what promotions turn into. You know how to work with your hands so we’ll stick you behind a desk and force you to use everything but your hands.

[@starcaller6448]

So in order to save the imperium from its death spiral Guilliman and Cawl had to become a thing that exists? And even they have long odds of saving this slowly cooking goose? Grimdark indeed.

[@ingold1470]

Continuous technological progress is not the rule, but the exception. We just have the fortune of living during a particularly long run of progress. The Aborigines settled what is now Australia, learned how to use fires to flush animals out of forests, and then stayed in the Stone Age until the British arrived. The Chinese invented their way to a late medieval tech level by the 6th century and then slowed to a crawl until the British and French forced them open to Western trade. The Britons stayed in the Bronze Age for millennia after their ancestors took the land from the builders of Stonehenge, and when the Romans showed up to force them into the Empire they still used chariots in battle.

[@wintersking4290]

China is an amazing real word example of technological loss, bureaucratic incompetence, and imperial self destruction. They had centuries of technical advantage over the rest of the world for ages and lost it all. They had compasses first, explored the world once, then quit forever and adopted a policy of isolation for the next 900 years. They invented gun powder first, made fireworks and basic fire arms before abandoning those fire arms in favor of spears and crossbows which they kept using til the 1800s. They had one of the biggest and most organized governments, only to be burdened by increasingly decadent and incompetent bureaucrats until it dissolved into civil war, that happened five times by the way, two of which resulted in over 100 million deaths. The perfect example of imperial failure.

[@mrdewb]

hear hear

[@mattd.8945]

Seeing Arch do a regular kind of video is like a lighthouse with all the craziness going on

[@jamisondebolt5590]

Has anyone noticed that this guy kind of sounds like Narc, the guy that covers Ashes of Creation development/news

[@Potwornica40K]

There is one other reason why technology may degrade - stupid regulations pushed by fashionable superstitions. That's what we have nowadays, in 3K, with all that battery loaded cars that are less officient than Ford Model T ever was.

[@Aburg76]

Back when I First discovered 40K, many, many years ago -Arch, Back when he was an agent for Malcador the Sigillite during the Terran Reunification wars.

[@Janovich]

Great video

[@p_serdiuk]

Based

[@UmaROMC]

One mistake Arch. Galliei was not persecuted simply for heliocentrism, he was persecuted because he was a filthy hermetic heretic, a would be alchemist.

[@Acesahn]

It amazes me how many lessons in history are twisted by propaganda.

[@Erebusdidnothingwrongish]

Nah he was totally not sus x

[@ironheadedDoF]

Galileo said "no" to the local/region power structure. Easy concepts, right? Details just enhance the nuances.

[@thisisanalt]

Neither of those were why he was persecuted, renaisence europe and italy in particular was awash in hermeticists and alchemists, especially in the Church. Lull is a famous alchemist, as is St. Albert Magnus. Galileo's controversy was because he insisted a portion of the bible be changed to fit the new science he discovered because of apparent contradictions, even when he didn't yet address the holes in his theory (which would be solved but only centuries later when the tech was available, the stellar parrallex being the big one)

[@Dragondeeznutz-zh5ob]

Got a source for that bro

[@Damian_Ravenscroft]

Genius video - it gives such a bright retrospect of our world and answers many questions such as "is AI going to replace jobs". I have long-term observations of the companies I worked for and I can agree on 100% that the most incompetent people are always promoted and on the top and am not saying that from hate because I really don't care about companies which I do not own myself! If you look closely in our modern worlds since year 2000 onwards we don't have much innovation just some improvments in technology but in social retrospect the people are getting poorer and with less avarage IQ - just no intelligent people to operate complex AI systems in the near future!

[@daywither927]

Ah, some of my favourite semi-obscure social topics wrapped into a 40k lore explanation. If I might only add to the topic of "aristocracy", ever wondered where the word "noble" comes from? "The one with knowledge"

[@praetorurbanus2917]

The etymology of "noble" is actually from the latin "nobiles," which meant those who were well-known or notable. In other words, those who put their time and effort into doing great deeds that they might receive political office.

[@daywither927]

@@praetorurbanus2917 Latin "nobilis", which then goes to "gnobilis", which then goes to greek "gnotos" which is derived from "gnosis". Which then probably goes to some caveman speech. But you're right, I screwed it up, it's a different form. Thanks.

[@vorynrosethorn903]

The Peter principal ironically sounds like it would set in much more viciously in a meritocracy, as it would open up the pool of candidates and it is in the interest of leaders to promote based off loyalty, especially a reliance on loyalty by the employee to retain their position (bio-leninism). An aristocratic society can have corrupt components, especially if they become the powercenter of society (democracy), but under a hierarchical system (monarchy), or one with many competing centres of power (medieval political circumstances under feudalism) this can be controlled both internally (by culture and the self-policing necessary to not give other factions a leg up) and externally (though law and responsibility). On top of this genetically intelligence and other characteristics are heritable, people in the nobility are highly likely to have the traits necessary to that role, including intangibles like aggression and drive independent of status signalling. When inculcation into a culture of responsibility and virtue, and a religiously mandated demand to live up to certain values and concepts are taken into account it becomes clear why aristocratic monarchies have such a better track record than democratic or authoritarian managerialism, indeed it is quite something that practically any system without an insatiable drive for self-destruction may be considered better. We have created rational systems and only proven the limits of human reason.

[@bojik2616]

Another way i have heard it put: "rise to the level of their incompetence" keep getting shoved up out of someone's hair til they are too inept to shove up further

[@marksnyder2232]

While I initially and theoretically agree with the Peter Principle, after thinking about how it works and all of the companies I've worked for in my career, I'm not so sure. The principle has one glaring weakness in that it assumes you can advance within an organization. In almost all production and engineering companies I've worked for over a LONG career now, there's been no place to be promoted to, even when you do a good job. Also, these companies seem to like filling any holes in the structure with people from outside, rather than shuffle people around. Not sure how this fits into 40K, but is something that should probably be appended to the analysis.

[@scasimir1000]

It's a good question. Isn't there a bunch of weapons that the space Marines will not use simply because the soldiers that use them were in a moral conjury due to the fact it was an extermination weapons like a radiation gun or grenades or something like that. Wouldn't the mechanicus essentially try to recreate those weapons since they're more needed now than ever.

[@TheDragonaxe1981]

Not one mention of the warp squirrel! I don't know why; but I am very impressed. lol

[@jeromethiel4323]

Technology decays in the dark. And in the 40K universe, it is so very dark. Some people even call it GRIM dark... ^-^

[@amedeo909]

Looks at nowadays, with tick tock, tide pod eating challenges: oh, I totally can see how it can happen

[@ivaneeh4211]

Ey Arch. There was a "mandatory Arch Warning" on Arbitratorians last Video. You should thank him for the free publicity :)

[@ElectromagNick]

I think it's hilarious how Arch is _the_ devil to most of these people.

[@Vonvader]

Came for the 40k lore stayed for the lessons and 40k lore lol. Some serious wisdoms and knowledge here.

[@bowlingvanjapan4099]

I argue that since both parties are totalitarian states and their only trading partners are each other. There is no way of finding the right balance of trade. Both sides may take turns one upping each other or underestimating their own needs. There needs to be competing firms not just two organisms feeding off each other until they run out of resources so collapse is inevitable it's a matter of when not if unless new resources are constantly discovered to replenish its stocks. But that requires an eternal contract and no chance of changing demands.

[@Hisu0]

Makes one wonder how did the Imperium get to those heights and what changed to make them unreachable.

[@PeterBaker-w3m]

In battletech I get that the E level technology was mostly in the Terran part of the Star League. For control purposes. While the great houses were level D plus. Then add in commguard killing those outside them who know the E level tech a fall to D level tech makes sense. Now in 40K chaos has reason to prevent humans from developing Neacon warp suppresing tech. So reason for all chaos gods to cause technological degrade so humans never get to susspression tech .

[@stefankatsarov5806]

In a more shorter version. Because the plot demands it. Still an interesting idea non the less.

[@TheOutsider-vc1hy]

The full circle of the Imperium coming at the Tau with rocks and spears, while the Tau have weapons that can explode a star.

[@walkerofthewasteland]

Arch, I can't begin to express how much I would LOVE to see a video from you just talking about the gradual degradation and collapse of the Roman Empire in the West.😁

[@Jon6429]

Can imagine some lowly probably mad tech priest wandering the hive spreading the teachings of Saint Haynes.... Take the sacred owners manual and seek not the mysteries beneath black stains.

[@Sethasss]

My Armour is Contempt My Shield is Disgust My Sword is Hatred In the Emperor's Name, let none survive!

[@calculusmaximus5078]

I suppose the bigger question for me is, why isn't the Imperium falling apart faster? It seems that they need higher level of competency then they display to actually keep things even at the current state. Add in all the problems you mention and I don't really get how it hasn't fully imploded yet.

[@przemysek2511]

love the vod and all the reasoning behind it but i have my uno revers card right here its called Belisarius Cawl

[@danielhorton9826]

Just listening to the introduction, I'm wondering if the mechanicus has been infiltrated by Nurgle, grandfather of stagnation.

[@frodeholmgang9158]

I don't think the Peter Principle is accumulative across generations as you suggest. Since regular humans don't live forever in 40k, the incompetent individual holding position X will eventually die and be replaced by someone else. So it does not follow that 10k years would make the Peter Principle apply any more than it would after 20 or so years.

[@GUMMRUCHK]

I could have sworn Arch already did a video on this topic.

[@rusharnmal7425]

I more believe in the Dilbert principle. The Incompetent are promoted until they get to a position where they do the least damage. I have seen it happen in every large tech company I have worked for. Hard working employees are too valuable on the front lines, this makes it so the company can only afford to promote the incompetent or the devious.

[@malicant123]

Because the Adeptus Mechanicus implemented EDI hiring practices? We wez tekpreistz, bruv.

[@mattryan7124]

The Peter Principle Arch described existed long before what you are referring to as DEI. But for that matter DEIA is not practiced the same in every organization. Though the way you are probably assuming it works would certainly result in a similar issue to the Peter Principle.

[@niklas3677]

Arch. If is it possible. Can you make video of how bodyarmor is made? Both for normal soldiers and space marines??

[@palpadur1112]

"So long as the mutants known as the 'Adeptus Mechanicus' make things as described in blueprints and STCs, I can tolerate their existence. But if they mess up *once,* I'll crack open whatever Forge World the defective product or products came from, and leave the survivors to die." - Warmaster Alexander "Ironside" Hammond, from an alternate 40k timeline

[@j-psavoie8173]

So tired of people being perpetually misinformed about the Galileo Affair...

[@huntermccoy7641]

If your not gonna explain it here why bring it up? No one cares how smart you think you are.

[@pirig-gal]

​@huntermccoy7641 Gallileo was imprisoned because he published a book in which he portrayed the Pope Urban VIII as a soy wojak (to be specific, he had a simpleton speak the words that the Pope had said).

[@kevinmccalister4602]

Interestingly I’m writing a book and I’ve got this kingdom ruled by a lich emperor. Would having an immortal monarch at the top solve this problem or just mitigate it? His mind is separate from a body or brain. Thus no mental deterioration as long as he can devout enough people to keep himself going. He also needs to maintain a healthy Beaurocracy and conquest rate to maintain a steady supply of sacrifices or as he calls them dinner. Thus the transition into an empire Any thoughts?

[@jimh5491]

I'd say mitigate it, because the problem of the loss of skills and knowledge lies in the incomplete transmission of full comprehensive understanding of those skills and knowledge from one generation to the next, thus increasing the odds over time that some critical component allowing a sufficient degree of understanding for innovation and improvement to take place would be eventually lost and the empire's civilization will collapse or regress to a previous stage once more. Your immortal lich in his case might ensure that his generation of one might continue for a long, long time, but unless he has a robust plan of succession in which his successor (whatever form they might take, he may even have multiple backup succession plans for any foreseeable contingency including more adaptive plans to handle potential unforeseeable crises that suddenly crop up) can rebuild the entire empire back to its greatest extent from total scratch in the worst case scenario of some apocalyptic war or other crisis or even simple loss of devotion that completely destroys him or otherwise leaves him in a deteriorated state and no longer able to rule his empire properly for whatever reason, then eventually even though it might take aeons to eventually occur a collapse and loss of knowledge will ultimately take place - unless the lich becomes truly immortal and imperishable with no possibility of the slightest flaw or degradation, like a eternal constant of the universe or similar that will always exist in a perfect unchanging state so long as that universe continues to exist.

[@kevinmccalister4602]

@@jimh5491 Thanks! I think you're right. Even if one undead lich emperor guy at the top is trying his best to scrub the problem he can't be everywhere. And if he goes away, is killed, is trapped, there's a large scale revolt against his authority from within, or an invasion from without then all his bureaucracy scrubbing skills are gone. I was wrong on it fixing the problem completely, but it does mitigate it. Thanks again : ) His plan for succession is effectively, I will never allow myself to die... It's not a very good plan, but he is a lich so they kind of plan to live forever. At least it's in character.

[@jimh5491]

@@kevinmccalister4602 Well, technically he's already dead so he doesn't have to worry about the dying part per se - maybe your setting has a realm of death or afterlife that he can just hop back from given enough time and a suitable physical body to inhabit back in the mortal realm if the worst does happen, so who knows? And then there's added risk that his potential successors might foolishly think they'd make better rulers than the Lich and revolt against him somehow, so in that regard maybe not having successors and planning to live forever might work out best for him!

[@UnitSe7en]

You'd think the Mechanicus would understand entropy.

[@spartanx9293]

2:32 yes But it takes a very very long time

[@zachariahjonahmaldonado5897]

Because they have a hard ban on A.I. due to a robot uprising in the past which limits their processing power to nothing greater than a calculator, which is why they have so many servotrons and wetware CPUs (brains in jars) to work around this. This puts a low and hard and low cap on how smart their technology can be, leading to their current prediciment. Took me less than a minute to bash that out.

[@darken2417]

Correction: Galileo was not imprisoned for his celestial theories. He first got in trouble because he didn't follow the scientific method correctly and was claiming his theory was truth before figuring out the quirks left about his theory. He was even so brazen as to demand that Church teaching be altered to align with his theory which really made things far far far worse. Galileo was then given a chance to wash his hands of the drama by his friend the Pope. He would have still have been allowed to continue his theory crafting but would need to apologize for the breach of process. He did this in writing but it seems he wrote it in a condescending way which all considered to be an open insult to the Papacy. The Pope despite wanting to be lenient with Galileo had no choice but to punish him with imprisonment considering Europe was at the time riddled with religious upheaval and since he had tied matters of religion to his theories while also insulting the process and the papacy.

[@bowlingvanjapan4099]

Regulations and allowances and tolerances that must be adhered to. So experimentation is heresy.