The Republic F-84H Thunderstreak - (Thunder Screech)

[@davidca96]

670mph is still hilariously fast for a prop plane.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

It never actually hit those speeds, the fastest it was clocked was something like 450 mph.

[@thesnazzycomet]

@@sinisterthoughts2896 doesn’t it have a jet at the back? It looks like it

[@AircraftTurnAndBurn]

@@thesnazzycomet it’s a turbo prop, not a recip with a turbine engine as well. The turbine moves the prop, the back is probably for exhaust and has little to nothing to add to the propulsion.

[@hzuiel]

@@AircraftTurnAndBurn It would provide some amount of thrust, just not the primary thrust. I wouldn't say little to nothing, based on my reading it's at minimum mid to low single digits of the total output power. Even piston engines have some thrust from the exhaust, enough so that in things like racing, where minute details and input matter, they try to utilize it in various ways.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

@@hzuiel interesting. I am aware of tuning exhaust to provide the optimal back pressure, but I wasn't aware of anyone attempting to to use exhaust flow for propulsion, except in the case of super chargers, but that's another matter entirely.

[@RONWOLPA]

Perfect aircraft , no need to carry any weapons : her noise would kill the enemy.

[@yutakago1736]

True. Just need to fly over the ISIS day and night to prevent them from falling asleep. They would die of fatigue due to lack of sleep.

[@gregistopal]

Wisely Go dudeee that's such a good idea and add those propellor trumpets from Hitler's planes to it

[@thatfinnishguy1571]

To be honest that might actually work

[@Steve-nf4jx]

Prettu much an american stuka. But louder

[@alexandersandrone308]

My younger cousins are still and always will be louder

[@42lookc]

I can't imagine a nearly-continuous sonic boom! Wow!

[@webpa]

All "sonic booms" are continuous. They only seem like one-time events if you are standing still when they pass.

[@42lookc]

Yes, of course, but what I'm saying is I can't imagine that volume of noise in a continuous manner. The loudness of a sonic boom is a rather shattering experience in a mere momentary manner. But that sheer bombastic auditory assault in an ongoing event would make a person physically ill or drive them insane. Or both.

[@gregistopal]

42lookc they should fly one of theese in circles over isis caves

[@smartingamerica]

Not a continuous boom. It was actually a series of up to 900 sonic booms per minute - getting hammered by 15 separate supersonic shock-wave-fronts passing your position per second. It must have been a very unpleasant sensation being anywhere near that prop.

[@Kay_213_]

Yeah of course it wasn’t continuous. But I reckon it sure would sounded like it

[@OtakuBozu]

I'm pretty sure that the Tu-95 "Bear"'s propeller-blade tips also go supersonic. Not only have Tu-95 crews suffered hearing-loss from the plane's acoustic signature, even pilots of F-14s, F-15s, and Panavia Tornado jets assigned to intercept the Bear have ALSO suffered hearing loss from the Tu-95's prop-noise!

[@RiflemanMoore]

True that and the Bear used to be picked up by NATO submarine listening stations!

[@Alexius1Komnenos]

Aircraft like the Vultee BT-13 and Cessna 185 have propeller tips that reach trans and supersonic speeds too

[@nicksikoryak1467]

Is it an insanely loud aircraft?

[@epikmanthe3rd]

OtakuBozu The thunder credit's props would crack glass and concrete, induce nausea and hearing loss, and one crew cheif supposedly had a seizure from the aircraft.

[@silent_bob_]

Nope. The 4 pairs of counter rotating props make the plane so loud. It would decimate ground crew if the props went supersonic.

[@EaglesEdtz]

The thunderscreech was the stealthiest plane there was, no one could hear it because it made everyone deaf.

[@anshupandey3582]

🤣🤣🤣

[@zenny1337]

Gotta love a plane that is literally capable of forcing you to shit your pants just by standing by it.

[@stonefacewiththedrip3377]

"Oh god" **shits pant**

[@GR-rx7zq]

*aggressively shits*

[@TheDankEngineer]

"And next, the Republic F-84H Thunderscreech!" *entire airshow audience shits pants*

[@ATFprdepartment]

Some real Psy-Ops shit

[@grovecitysirens_GCS]

Now thats funny XD

[@arno_groenewald]

Ah the thunderskreech Guess what, it could be heard for 40km away. 40KM!

[@doc6540]

What's that in American

[@iwasgroomed]

_D_O_C_ far is my guess

[@BigG3RM4N]

@@doc6540 I don't know. But in stupid that's about 24.85.

[@sadwingsraging3044]

@@BigG3RM4N HAhahaha! I love the little metric simps hating on Freedom Units. I just love it when they have to tell you how long a soccer field is when you ask them. LOL!

[@carmenseeger311]

@@sadwingsraging3044 The length/size of soccer fields isn't regulated. It has max/min limitations but varies. So there's simply no definite answers on that question. Metric and imp units both have their pros and cons but don't try to seriously do math with the latter :P Anyway 40km is about 25 miles

[@306champion]

I couldn't help but notice the audio of a radial piston engine dubbed over. I wanted to hear the thing.

[@johnmccullough13]

Had to look to far for this comment. Post-production sound dept doesn’t know what a turboprop is. 🙄

[@jessedelozier6470]

Thanks Gus

[@huckfin9899]

Why did they dub in the sound of a piston engine when showing this plane start up?

[@hurf_durf]

the starter cart used to spool up the turbine may have been piston powered

[@huckfin9899]

Oh I never thought of that? Good point! :-)

[@webpa]

Yes, virtually all carts (MD-3, etc) were piston-powered. But the dubbed-in sound was of a large, round, piston engine, including the electric starter meshing and spinning up. Quite amusing, actually.

[@777.productions8]

Could also be because people of the time related props to pistons and also the don’t have much recordings of the plane sound

[@DrSabot-A]

They always seem to do this for classic videos, either on their own or by remastering groups. The most common is always vintage Grand Prix races or World War infomationals, where they would dub engine sounds, braking noises, tyre screeches, crowd clapping, etc

[@xZellxKyoux]

Shout out to Gus and the roosterteeth podcast for bringin me here! lol

[@alexgonzo000]

same lol

[@jdgomez775]

Same!

[@andrewlindsay2685]

Just getting caught up with the pod lol

[@epikmanthe3rd]

What episode was it?

[@jettstorm2253]

They actually talked about this? What ep?

[@azureskys]

wish i could of heard what it sounded like in person. who needs comfort when experiencing history!?

[@bigshrimp6458]

if youre still alive there exists audio of it from the ground and it literally made me sick

[@flashpointstudios7910]

@@bigshrimp6458 Turns out that is actually an artist impression of what it would sound like, but still I like to believe that it would sound very similar to that.

[@rbagel55]

@@flashpointstudios7910 there is another video of this plane here on KZbin. It plays a sound and said it was the real plane passing overhead at 23,000 ft

[@rbagel55]

@@flashpointstudios7910 kzbin.info/www/bejne/amfShHiHpMiHqbM this is an actual recording

[@davecrupel2817]

Because it would probably be the last thing you ever hear. You'd be getting bombarded with hundreds of hz of *sonic booms* ffs! You don't want no part of that.

[@wolftickets1969]

The Brown Note plane.

[@kungfucow547]

Only good comment here. Something as rare as an interesting/funny youtube comment.

[@Kay_213_]

I disagree. I’ve seen some funny comments but my sense of humour is tainted by the internet anyway

[@drewb.5419]

This is a gem of a comment ;) thank you for the great laughs my dude

[@bonfist1252]

UZZAH A COMMENT OF QUALITY

[@FilliamPL]

@@bonfist1252 the beauty of the internet

[@Draco_Alpha]

I love how everybody involved with the test flights just didn’t trust the thing. One more test flight? HELL NO! lol Absolutely beautiful aircraft though.

[@gulfstream7235]

I'd say the test pilots spent most of their time with hands either side of their helmets rather than on controls...

[@Johnfranorge]

I love these 90's documentaries with the old school music. No bull, only facts

[@60knightsix]

While I, of course, appreciate the historical aspect of this upload, the sound track of a reciprocating (piston) engine starting up as the XF-84's propeller begins to turn is a large distraction and adds nothing.

[@spottydog4477]

Knight Six I agrree....however the docco isnt a big budget on..just be thankful there something of it on line

[@Direwolf56]

+Knight Six This kept confusing me every time I watched it. "But they said it was a turboprop……."

[@GeneralSirDouglasMcA]

+Direwolf56 They figured the people who aren't pilots wouldn't know the difference. :p

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

+Knight Six >>> FWIW, I noticed that myself while watching this vid.

[@prodigy-hu6dy]

The startercart used to spool up the engine was piston powered?

[@grahamariss2111]

Noise is a big issue with Supersonic props, 20 odd years ago working near Warwick where you would often be overflown by C130 at 250 to 500 feet I heard what I thought was a C130 just about to overfly me. It was in fact a tiny dot of a TU95 with two F3 escorts crossing through UK airspace at some 35,000 feet. It turned out it was on its way back from an Airshow in the US, how times have changed back :-)

[@wawan8759]

Is C130 have quieter props? I live in malaysia and i always spooked by these flying very low yet very quietly

[@phlodel]

One of the F84H aircraft was on display on a pylon at Meadows Field in Bakersfield, California for many years. As a young boy, I loved to look at it. The story I was told was that the noise of the prop so adversely affected the pilot that he made an emergency landing at Bakersfield rather than fly a few more minutes to Edwards Air Force Base. The Air Force never retrieved the plane and it was put on display. Some years ago the Air Force repossessed the aircraft. Due to its historical significance it has been put in the National Air and Space Museum.

[@WildBillCox13]

+phlodel Yeah. I read the sound and turbulence were so bad that the pilot was made nauseous the whole time.

[@maulanwong3841]

Imagine how loud it is inside of the cockpit! And also most passenger planes are only about 105 decibels loud during takeoff and landing so this plane must be way louder

[@thercattrainer]

I've seen the F-84H on display at the Bakersfield Airport and it is something to see. The multi-blade propeller on this aircraft is very small in diameter compared to the ones used in fighter aircraft during WWII because it was turning so many RPM's. A bigger prop probably would have resulted in a severely damaged aircraft if one had been used.

[@CS_247]

Why does it sound like an old radial starting up at the beginning? Come on, people, How dumb do you think we are?

[@007999999999999999]

I don't know if original sound was used in this video, but a torboprop is basically a jet engine driving a probeller. Those kinda engines sound more like the ones from jets than that from propeller planes.

[@rickravenrumney]

Your kind of answering your own question. The prop was so loud because its tips broke the sound barrier 900x a minute making a growl. I do know microphones then and now would not pick up sound waves properly because of this. I believe the audio was turned way down. But a good question. I have PPL, I want one, im rated for a single.😁

[@lm1584]

That's definitely a radial engine sound of some kind.. Old.bomber perhaps

[@douglasrodrigues9329]

It's Hollywood.. Same type of situation when Hollywood producers add the sound of Stuka Dive Bomber sirens screaming to any plane in a dive. It could be a DC-3 in a slight dive, or a Pilitus Porter in a dive, but leave it to Hollywood, they all sound like Stuka dive bombers.😄

[@TheTormhel]

It's just the propeller blades pushing on air whilst the starter winds up the engine. Allisons are direct driven, not like the PT6 which starts the engine first and then engages the propeller.

[@RickyJr46]

Fortunately for viewers, the incessant din of that narrator spared us the terrible suffering of actually hearing the Thunder Screech. Thank you.

[@cobrala]

@Orangebike666 1. Induced drag increases to amazing levels on the props near supersonic speeds but it is possible with new fan prop designs 2. In this aircraft no but check out the XF-88B voodoo. They used this aircraft to test high speed props 3. I have never heard it but I fly a pt6 and although its quiet for turboprops i can still feel the rumble in my gut!

[@guntherultraboltnovacrunch5248]

Next video: Boeing 747 - steam variant

[@jimihendrix225]

lmao

[@Kay_213_]

I just noticed, not only is it powered by a jet engine, it’s got the actual jet exhaust thing (for extreme lack of a better term) Fucking crazy

[@Mariuswow69]

Tomas Rodriguez Acum 7 luni I flew in the Tu-114 for 16 hrs non-stop in 1968. This presentation has excellent video graphics and footage. The story, told by an interesting voice, requires some rectifications for the sake of historical and technical accuracy. The 114 was not only the fastest propeller airliner. It was - and still is - the fastest propeller driven aircraft in history, with a top speed of 540 mph (this record stands since 1961). Some sources claim it was the Republic XF-84H. The 84H was designed to be faster than the Tu-114; but it was not able to fly beyond 520 mph according to the Smithsonian. Also the 114 was not the noisiest aircraft, nor its military siblings Tu-95/142. That distinction belongs to the same XF-84H which was called "Thunderscreech" by the Muroc Air Force Test Base personnel, who were made sick (vomit) by the sound of the aircraft's running propeller during ground runs. Watching the ground personnel around the Tu-95s and 142s, it is evident they are not in discomfort. Same applied to the 114 which had about 2000 hp less powerful engines and propellers. The claim that it had to cruise at lower speeds due to noise and vibration is not accurate. Actually it is the first time I ever heard of it. I flew one window ahead of the inner propellers tips. Technically that was the noisiest place inside the aircraft. It was not as quiet as a Bristol Britannia (the Whispering Giant); but it was quieter than the Super Connie shown in the video (I also flew in both). In fact, after almost an hour over the Artic Circle, I was bored and noticed a faint vibration that ran along the window sill like a very low frequency, mini-amplitude wave, passing every four or five minutes from front to rear like a distant slow rumble. My neighbour did not notice it; but my newly minted engineer's degree, wanted to show-off and kept searching for an explanation that never arrived, and soon I fell asleep. It was that boring. Its safety record of only one accident - on the ground - after decades in service, testifies that there were no structural issues with the original design. Of course, the military version, without the civilian cabin insulation must be noisier; but again the videos on this site do not show any crew member sick nor close to deafening distress. To this day, in my strong (not humble) opinion, backed by almost 70 years of Aviation love, I think that the Tu-95 and the SR-71 are the most exotic aircraft to ever fly.

[@skidplate4150]

That is the smoothist landing i have ever seen

[@robertbertram6918]

This aircraft is on display at the museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton Ohio

[@HotForgeChaos]

Soviets: What the BLYAT is that god awful noise blin? Oh its just a Thunderscreech taking off

[@thomasparisi5333]

Imagine standing close to the propellers on the thing, a sonic boom every time a blade goes by at God knows how many RPM. No wonder it was loud !

[@nicknicknick1159]

The propeller made constant sonic booms. The ground crew around the aircraft were physically sick because the noise was so tremendous. Jesus...

[@coolruehle]

Gotta love all of the dubbed-in piston engine noises.

[@mcedd54]

I like the Stars and Bars in the cockpit.

[@exist7415]

This thing would make a hell of a ground attack aircraft if there was a way to make it safer, the sound alone would be devastating to enemy combatants.

[@_TheGitz]

Nice that you put a normal engine sound on a turboprop plane (the loudest ever build with an unique sound)

[@sgsellsit]

Think about this. The Supermarine Spitfire introduced in 1938 initially flew at around 360 mph and was only 35 years after the first powered flight. The Wright Flyer flew at a top speed of 30 mph in 1903. Later variations of the Spitfire from 1945-1948 topped 460 mph. Many military aircraft at this time were topping 400 mph. The XF-84, which was a military project, predicted to fly at 675 mph never went over 520 mph and was achieved in 1956 before it was scrapped. So in less than 40 years man managed to fly propeller powered planes 430 mph faster. However in over 10 years and millions of dollars, barely went 60 mph faster. This really lends to the adage of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[@ginger02231]

the thunderskreech is a surprisingly fitting namr

[@joshgellis3292]

“That was useless for the navy☝🏻🙄” Good job! 🤣🙄👍

[@antondopira5957]

It wasn't able to reach sonic barrier, but it reached screech barrier 👍

[@necrovarius225]

Came here from the Rooster Teeth Podcast.

[@helenpilla9114]

The Confederate battle flag is a nice touch. The P.C. police would shit themselves now a day.

[@Roger2465]

Helen Pilla lol kneels

[@madmax2069]

2:13 lmao It sounded like he said something else entirely (yes I know he said angled decks)

[@bsgtrekfan88]

Thanks Guss ;)

[@fffidleGaming]

British make the best narrators for some reason.

[@kdaltex]

VA to Thunderscreech pilots: Your hearing loss is not service related. Claim denied

[@chriss4919]

1:16 geeze... that takeoff sounded like an F-16 or an F-18. And keep in mind this is a turbo prop.. wow

[@olliepainter2155]

It was way louder.

[@kerbodynamicx472]

The difference is, If you were witnessing there where the camera is located, you’ll be suffering permanently hearing loss.

[@Tacticaviator7]

I'm about 3 years late but this video's sound is fake, it's just a generic piston propeller sound, radial probably. Here's a vid with the real sound if youtube doesn't delete my comment kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3rXlquHra-Gb7c

[@DarkElfDiva]

The properties of a propeller preclude safe acceleration past the speed of sound. The propeller, and likely the entire aircraft, would shake itself apart. This is the same reason that helicopters cannot be supersonic.

[@spottydog4477]

From a DVD series called "Great Planes"

[@derekwall82]

propeller blades on the TU-95 bear bomber go supersonic on take off and cruising. they hit speeds of Mach 1.08. the bear is known for being the noisiest bomber ever built

[@ranietsd1]

So does the propeller-tips of Cessna sea-planes during take-off.

[@jaket2k927]

Steinar Danielsson oh don't hurt the Soviet fanboys feelings.

[@derekwall82]

Steinar Danielsson really they don't seem to be that noisy

[@derekwall82]

jaket2k9 that wasn't my intention to hurt his feelings I was stating a fact that's all

[@jaket2k927]

Derek Wall I know, just times there will be that one kid who's infatuated with Soviet Era Tech being almighty superior to everything. Some of it was though.

[@FELiPES101]

A modern unmanned variant of this should be made for shows of force

[@tombmaster972]

it could be the only aircraft in aviation history which flew with permanent extended ram air turbine

[@ap0lmc]

they should've used a counter rotating prop system that would reduce prop tip speed and get rid of inefficient vortexes caused by single props.

[@rgj5832]

Exactly what I was thinking like the TU95!

[@6g854]

im pretty sure it,would be good for war to deafen enemies which compromises them and gives friendly forces an advantage

[@GeorgHaeder]

FS-059 is at display at the US Air Force Museum now.

[@LuminaryCursorem]

Its like flying the biggest dremel tool with a propeller.

[@kungfucow547]

Not a very "stealthy" aircraft is it since reportedly you could hear the thing *start* 25 miles away.

[@breezin247]

The prop created 900 sonic booms per minute. This plane didn't need weapons 😂

[@Shirehi]

The Navy still uses the knowledge gained from this plane in their modern submarines and advanced warships for their propellers.

[@spottydog4477]

note the quality British narration....good detail and tech data..not a sanitized History channel production

[@thatfinnishguy1571]

Lol

[@spoonnz]

that's truly amazing!

[@JLmcct]

MDR pour les bruitages !

[@toomanyaccounts]

the thunderscreech is more noisy. To the point where only two people flew it and the control tower people were afraid the noise would shatter their equipment.

[@WhiskeyRichard.]

Thanks, going to have to look it up

[@djpalindrome]

That thing never even got close to flying 670 mph

[@justforever96]

Yes they are, but I have a feeling that the fact that the XF-84H's prop was only 12ft in diameter and ran at Mach 1.18 at the tips whether idling or a max speed might make a difference. Apparently, the noise was so bad it was just impossible to deal with, while the Tu-95 has had an excellent service record. I'd like to HEAR it though, instead of hear ABOUT it. So much for video.

[@Bane_Diesel]

3 questions... 1.) is it possible to have a turbo prop to be super sonic? 2.) were the props fixed in one position? 3.) know where to find the engine sound?

[@samanli-tw3id]

0:42 the aircraft employed a turboprop *piston engine sound*

[@Szarko32c]

Tu-95 propellers are also supersonic

[@TheSulo1]

We need this in War Thunder

[@AlbertCalis]

"The effect of a carrier's dick..." I just about died laughing when I heard that!

[@erikbaran7197]

Except he didn't say that. Didn't pronounce it that way, either.

[@packerman1203]

Saw this on ifunny so I came to actually hear it, didn’t come from gus

[@squeezeme74]

My father help build this aircraft !!!!!!!

[@r08800]

Didn't do a very good job ha ha ha. Only kidding.

[@Newtype93]

+Robbo Buuuurn

[@cnfuzz]

Fifties a wonderful experimental time for aviation

[@ethanspaziani5269]

Wow you think that I could talk to him I'm trying to get a good idea for the aircraft so that I could recreate it in a flight Sim don't know if you'll reply to this worth a shot

[@abrahamsanchez7455]

Did a shit job

[@WhiskeyRichard.]

Not just sanitized but over-dramatic and trivialized. Just like they did to Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares. BBC FOREVER

[@jameshaury2716]

Noisier than a TU-95 bear? NYET!

[@billsmith5166]

I love everything about this plane. I wonder if women on the ground smoked a cigarette after it flew past?

[@znuto]

there is one of these on a pole at the Bakersfield CA airport

[@erikbaran7197]

An airplane....on a steeeek.

[@nicholasmaude6906]

The aptly name Thunder-screech.

[@FrayDawg112]

Thanks gus

[@rescue270]

I believe that there must not be a single person involved in any sort of media production who has ever heard of a turboprop engine. I see piston sounds overdubbed on videos of turboprop airplanes all the time.

[@rbagel55]

This plane never reached this speed. Max speed during testing was 450mph

[@billsmith5166]

I couldn't figure that out either, it never got close.

[@rbagel55]

@@billsmith5166 Another thing he said that i question is he said the power plant was sound. I read it was a mechanical nightmare and took like 30 minutes to get up and running. They all said it was a noisy SOB though.

[@absthewonderdog]

@@rbagel55 Some other dude's video mentioned all that. Wonder who has it right?

[@rbagel55]

@@absthewonderdog I don't know. This video said it reached 670, Wikipedia said 540, and another video said 450. I guess with all the problems they had testing this thing that 450 seem like the correct answer. But. I could be wrong. Fact is there isn't any solid proof of how fast it went. Maybe too many people were bitching about the noise that they didnt bother testing it's speed. Another thing is I know that this same guy narrating video ( with a British accent) has mentioned some false information about another plane ( can't remember which one) so I don't think his sources are accurate

[@jordyariaszapata6124]

Who’s here from dark skies BECAUSE HE COULD NOT PUT A SOUND SAMPLE

[@donadams8345]

Apparently this aircraft was not so sound, contrary to what the narrator says. Most of the test flights encountered problems.

[@euanmorse]

That commentator is Australian, but I would say that the UK, Australia and New Zealand all tend to present documentaries in a similar style.

[@skankhunt420]

So if this gets this new MIT super design propeller, it could be able to hit the mark?

[@ufoengines]

Very Cool!

[@nuwandesilva8729]

Fixing a siren would complete the plane

[@mixrable1212]

2:55 lol is that a dixie flag

[@cobrala]

@Orangebike666 I fly the Pilatus PC-12 that uses a Pratt & Whitney PT6A-67B engine. The Texan II also uses a PT6 engine and interestingly the Texan II is based on a Pilatus aircraft.

[@bergejermakian6540]

It has been reported that American fighters that intercept the Russian TU-95 Bear flying close to the U.S. coasts don't fly close to it because of the noise of it counta rotary propellers running at super sonic speeds.

[@cnfuzz]

No way this thing could be worse than rapmusic

[@lm1584]

0:42 - LOL piston engine sound startup for a turboprop (sounds nothing like that)

[@murilovsilva]

No need to carry weapons into combat, just a couple of flybys over the enemy bases and everybody dies of lung damage, punctured eardrums and uncontrollable shitting

[@tilman80ify]

This needs to be in War Thunder

[@pilotintraining1420]

Can we carry these usless comments to some other place, you should be commenting on the engineering that went into such an amazing aircraft that lead to future designs and further into supersonic research.

[@Jarda-di4gd]

"It was quite operationnnnaaaallll..." xD

[@Knexfoof]

The Spitfire could reach 690 mph in one version, that had a propellor, but was driven by a Piston engine! I think its nearly 1000 km/h

[@erikbaran7197]

Maybe in a dive, but no where near that in normal flight.

[@leezinke4351]

is XF-84H louder than Tu-95/114??

[@brockcherry5303]

Lee Zinke yes

[@Thej611]

Yes, yes it is.

[@joe08867]

Actually if you listen to the show, it reached 670 MPH which is faster then the Bear.

[@benhudman7911]

Two important factors of airplane engineering were at work. It looked fast and made great noise. Woohoo!!!! Oh wait.......