The Riddle of Robb's Will

[@caitlinbrewer4843]

You mentioned wording and, to add to that, Jon getting out of his vows could simply come down to a loophole about his name. Jon Snow took those vows, yes, but Jon Stark or Jaehaerys Targaryen didn't. This is a more valid argument in the Targaryen name because then Jon would have unknowingly took those vows under a false name. Jon Snow never existed, he was a fabrication created by Ned.

[@Vo1kfang]

One thought I had is that they could revoke a noble-born's night's watch vows if he is the last member of a house to prevent the instability of a house going extinct.

[@Fruitdrink2000]

After seeing Cersei ripping legal docs… I get worried lol.

[@paulbarry3400]

Howland Reed certainly knows Jojen has survived Winterfell, because Jojen knows the day he dies. It’s highly doubtful Howland sent Jojen and Meera without full knowledge of Jojen’s dreams.

[@HistoryofWesteros]

ooh good call, I wonder if Jojen knew they day he died that far back. I think you're right that he probably did.

[@roddammit5510]

Pretty sure Jojen knew he was sacrificing himself the whole time. Certainly explains his kind of gloomy disposition.

[@paulbarry3400]

It’s often struck me how different things might’ve gone if Catelyn hadn’t insisted Jon left Winterfell when Ned did. If Jon had marched south beside Robb, it would likely have been him beside Robb, not Theon. Jon saw straight through Theon so may have dissuaded Robb from sending him home. As King, Robb could’ve removed the taint of bastardy and made him a Stark for acts of courage. I know, it’s a different story…roads not travelled. Just can’t help but think Robb and Jon would’ve done really well as a team.

[@aydencole8850]

I think if he'd gone with Robb he would have died along side him in the red wedding. He wouldn't be as attuned to ghost as he is now, so that wouldn't save him

[@kyantechristian9747]

@@aydencole8850I think Jon would’ve been a great buffer in leading Robb away from some mistakes that were made. If Jon were there i agree that the whole Theon situation would’ve gone totally different. We were already told early that Jon was very perceptive and saw through a lot of individuals from the face they put on. But let’s say that winterfell is still sacked and those events still occur, it’s almost highlighted that Robb was inconsolable when he learned about the death of his brothers so a women of his age who was tending his wounds would have seemed pretty welcoming. But what is Jon was there? A brother who could share in and understand his grief from a personal level would have surely put a stop to any situation where Robb could have dishonored Jeyne Westerling and ultimately marrying her. This would have saved the marriage pact with the Freys. This is just one of the many things that could’ve changed the whole outcome of events.

[@idontuploadanym0re]

1:04:01 i feel like word of Bran might’ve spread around the upper echelons of the hill clan. the same people who are currently with Stannis…. which makes for an interesting scenario involving the Manderlys. if the night lamp theory is correct and the Manderlys betray the Freys and join with Stannis, they’ll have a chance to talk to the hill clans. since the Manderlys know of Rickon and the hill clans know of Bran, they can probably convince Stannis that both boys are still alive. two geographically separate factions have the same corroborating info. i feel like this will come into play within the book. ETA: also i COMPLETELY forgot about the Theon factor! Theon’s there too. assuming he doesn’t die at some point during the battle (which is a very large possibility), he can straight up admit that he didn’t kill the boys. i think this situation is highly likely. you have two factions claiming to know Bran and Rickon are alive along with the alleged murderer at or approaching the same location. there’s gotta be a comparison of notes at some point i think.

[@Cecil_Harvey]

Sean had it write, not Aziz. “Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.” Legitimization is the one with precedent, not releasing someone from NW vows.

[@jacobenke7936]

And yet Stannis went there pretty much immediately, and he is one to follow the letter of the law.

[@kyantechristian9747]

1:46:27 This is a great point. We’ve seen that Jon is willing to do things that are particularly unpopular or go against the strictly upheld status quo. He knows what’s at stake for the realm and if assuming the crown of the north and all its authority I see him doing exactly that and with an iron fist at that.

[@ladythistle8085]

GRRM: “I thought it was too easy for Gandalf to die and then just come back more powerful. He really should have had some scars and bad skin.”

[@elenaleos2473]

I think the precedent for leaving the Watch would be swearing your oath under a false name, unknowingly🤷🏻‍♀️ Like- how is a lord supposed to keep a couple spares stashed out of the line of fire to keep your line alive- have the kid sent to the wall as a Snow

[@GeekFurious]

It makes the most sense that Robb would have named Jon since he's the only person in his direct bloodline (Stark) whose location he's certain of when he writes the will. Why would he name anyone else? He thinks his other siblings are dead or being held hostage. And he's not naming his mother because she's not a northerner. I can't see why he would name anyone else.

[@robertflintoft5614]

His kingdom does also include the Riverlands, naming his mum does make sense she isn't in the nights watch , she doesn't need legitimising. She is one of the few people that can tie the north and the Riverlands. She has noted she could still have children and Robb seems to be preparing to marry her to Jason Maylister. Finally she has her own heir in her brother who was about to marry and would be expected to have children. Cat also notes that she hopes the trap Robb sets for the ironborn is as good as the one he set her which doesn't make masses of sense unless he did something in that will that she was trapped into. He could well have threatened her with Jon so that when he named her she was stuck with it

[@carbruck7395]

@@robertflintoft5614right, but remember that Lineage is extremely important in Westeros, and there are already two male heirs (Brynden and Edmure) capable of furthering the Tully’s, but aside from a legitimized Jon, Robb believed he was the last living male Stark, so that was his only option to continue the family name

[@robertflintoft5614]

@@carbruck7395 I think that's fair but Robb is in a position of needing to keep his fledgling kingdom in tact Jon doesn't have any connection to the Riverlands and naming Cat means if they get Sansa or Arya back they could also be considered as heirs to Cat. The name Stark I agree is important but Cat is one by marriage and any children she might have might take the name. We have a number points in the story where it is suggested that a character might take a name to keep it going. It's not ideal for Robb but he isn't in a great spot. Also I know it is out of the text but George was asked about what would happen if Jon found out Robb named him heir and was like oh I haven't confirmed Jon is heir who Robb names is a mystery. Lady Stoneheart also has the crown and might well she herself and defacto queen searching to crown Arya believing her to be in the Riverlands still

[@jacobenke7936]

@@robertflintoft5614 Cat, to that point, had made a string of decisions that led them down this road. The North will never accept her as ruler, unless it's a thing where Cat is heir to the crown, but Jon gets Winterfell. Robb saw this quite clearly, as he was constantly trying to send her home while letting her save face. An outsider would be completely justified in thinking that Cat wanted her family to die based solely on her actions.

[@doghat1619]

​@jacobenke7936 Multiple characters, including northern rulers like Maege Mormont sympathise with Cat and completely understand her releasing Jamie. Cat was trying to destroy her family? Get a grip. Robb misled his own uncle, leading him to mess up a military strategy, and then married a woman and severed his relationship with one of the strongest Riverland houses, which completely controlled his route back home. Robb does far more to hurt his own cause, but Cat is a woman, so she's overly hated.

[@lili46038]

Loved this discussion. And I loved to hear Sean point out that it's a puzzle so intricate that's no wonder it's taking time

[@alexmule1997]

Robb asks the ship captan that brings him the news from the Iron Islands to wait outside of the meeting about the will. He says he has something for him, like a reward. Maybe Robb send the will to Castle Black. It lets Jon and them know Robb’s wishes. It may have the most value being at the wall with Jon.

[@LoneWolf-ro9sj]

You guys contradict yourselfs in the same sentence: resurrected people,Catelyn,Beric,Mountain…they are doing same thing doing just before they die: beric-justice,Cat-revenge on Freys and Boltons,Mountain duel whoever for Cersei… also Jon was stabbed just before he go south to fight the Boltons …

[@AllTheArtsy]

This is one of my favorite questions when it comes to ASOIAF because it touches so many topics that are also relevant to my life as a lawyer -- precedent, jurisdiction, inheritance.. And of course that is why George does not give us the exact wording of the will. It would be eas(ier) to ponder this question if we actually have the wording, and when it was signed versus when certain information would have been common knowledge, but alas...

[@jfw091]

Can't recommend "The Expanse" enough. One of the authors, Ty frank worked for grrm for a bit. The expanse came from an rpg game a group of friends made for themselves. The authors and grrm played it together where George was a dwarf space miner. 8th book is also my favorite. Show and books are great.

[@doxiedomian]

I think I love the Expanse even more than ASOIAF after finishing it a few months ago. I second that recommendation

[@Shaz1993xoxo]

What if the legitimisation of someone is the precedent for being let out of the vows? Technically Jon Snow would be "dead" when he is legitimised and becomes Jon Stark. More likely it is someone lacked an heir and the king at the time gave permission for their closest living relative to be let out of their vows to carry on the line and keep stability in that region.

[@dpeoples81]

Wouldn't the will be safest with Ned's most trusted vassal at a moving keep that's impossible to find? Howland wouldn't need to carry it on him heading into battle, just be able to present it when necessary.

[@idontuploadanym0re]

1:13:48 if i’m not mistaken, Aemon was offered a pardon from the watch but rejected it. interestingly, his situation paralleled Jon’s. there was a question of Targaryen succession, and Aemon was offered the throne. Aemon being Aemon opted to stay with the watch, but i can imagine this choice being offered to Jon in winds…. he can uphold his vows, or decide to become king in the north.

[@emma_green]

Aemon was offered th be released from his maesters oath, but the situation is still parallell. If powerful pwople want Jon to be released from his oath, then he will be.

[@Abdullah-uk4fl]

Lady Stoneheart know by now that Arya is alive and may work to thwart the Will and find her.

[@john0donavan0ritter]

The closest thing we have to a member of the nightswatch being freed from their vow is maester Aemond. During the succession crisis that led to Aegon the unlikely's coronation.

[@archmaesterrenny9569]

Yes, The Expanse!!! The show is one of the best, for sure. And I’m with Ashaya-book 8 is also my favorite. And the show landed an ending with season 6, and the books landed an ending, plus a really satisfying coda (the novella Sins of our Fathers).

[@judsonbates1359]

Really looking forward to this chat. 5:14

[@AllTheArtsy]

Watching the back half of the episode and in 1:47:37, I think Sean is a bit unfair in saying Ned was "caught up in honor" versus Cat who's "caught up in family." Because Ned did dishonorable things-- with Jon and Lyanna which to the outside view was being with another woman and having a son while married to Cat but in reality was him lying to his king and entire family; and then again by declaring Joffrey rightful king despite knowing his illegitimacy-- all for the love of his sister and his daughters. I wouldn't call that putting honor over family.

[@guichogf5636]

I would also argue that Cat wasn't really caught up in family either. She didn't even go down to say goodbye to her daughters when they left for the capital. She ignored 3 year old Rickon when he needed her the most, all but one of his siblings and father had gone away. Yeah, she sat with Bran and saved him from the catspaw, but left him too instead of sending discreet and trusted men to Kings Landing and staying to take care of her sons. If she had stayed in Winterfell, chances are that Ned and the girls would have returned home, and Theon would never have dared to do what he did. Unlike in the show, Cat pressured Ned to go to Kings Landing against his best instincts. No, Cat was caught up in her own pride and was more interested in her husband being hand, her daughter being married to the future king, her son being Lord Paramount and later king. Just like Cersei, she only cared about her kids insofar as they helped her climb socially through them. Cat was responsible for starting the war. I'm sure it would have happened anyways, but not so soon and Ned and the north would have been better prepared to deal with it if Cat had just looked after all of her kids and not pressured Ned to leave. I never got the love fans have for all things Stark. What are the chances that George would introduce the most noble of families in chapter one and they end up being lily white heroes all the way to the end. I always suspected that there are dark secrets surrounding the Starks.

[@doghat1619]

​@@guichogf5636trusted men? Like who? The ONLY people who know about the dagger are Rodrick Cassel, Luwin, Robb, Theon and Cat. Robb can't go, she doesn't trust Theon, Luwin can't go and Rodrick is a nobody, he'd never get anywhere near the court. It makes sense for Cat to go, being a noble woman and the hand's wife.

[@kyantechristian9747]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@doghat1619Rodrick Cassel is the castellan of Winterfell and can be implied that he’s known Ned most of his life. Why do you mean he’s a nobody? He’s apart of the hands own household😂😂

[@doghat1619]

@@kyantechristian9747 He's not apart of the Hand's household, given that the Hand's household goes to King's Landing, and Rodrick stays in Winterfell. He's a minor noble who works, living in some other lord's castle and doing their duty. He's not a powerful lord. Him knowing Ned doesn't matter, it won't get him an audience with people of importance in King's Landing. Like Nester Royce was steward of the Eyrie/Vale for all of Jon Arryn's hand of the king term, he's a cousin to a powerful vale house, and HE is a nobody.

[@blackeyedlily]

Jon is aware of the Red Wedding. I’m not sure how he originally learned about it without going back through all of Jon’s chapters that occur after the Red Wedding. But when Stannis is offering to legitimize Jon Snow and make him Lord of Winterfell, Stannis references Robb’s death. And Jon doesn’t act as if this is new information. On top of that there is the imagery that Jon experiences in his dreams that is definitely related to the Red Wedding and Robb being dead. I was surprised to hear Aziz mention that he didn’t know if Jon knew about the Red Wedding. Though I must admit that I can’t reference how he first learned about it.

[@adipsous]

Wow. I think actually nothing was posited or speculated in this discussion. It passed the time, but zero was gained here.

[@judithbradford9130]

Of course, Jon can't be crowned if he's dead. Being formerly dead, however, isn't likely to be an exclusion condition on inheritance :)

[@hasanmehmood19]

How did Lady Stoneheart came to know that Arya is alive? I mean She is looking for Arya in Riverllanda amongst orphans but how does she know that Arya is alive?

[@HistoryofWesteros]

she doesn't know she's alive, she just knows she was alive recently. More recently than her last discussion with Robb. That's because the BwB has presumably told her. They had Arya captive, and it unlikely that none of them told her. Gendry, Lem, Harwin etc all knew.

[@hasanmehmood19]

@@HistoryofWesteros oh yes that totally slipped out of my mind. Thank you so much. ❤️ Love all your content big fan.

[@rushnafwadud]

If Robb was doing sums, he was doing alphabets.

[@ozlemdenli7763]

thank you

[@marcfrancisteodoro7720]

Amazing stream 👏🏻

[@mjp3358]

Brienne takes Jamie hostage so Cat can get Jayne and Edmure back…Cat kills Jeyne

[@lancekyser14]

I thought the Little that they met was the man Ygritte killed at the lake ?

[@davidryan7386]

My comments froze during livestream..but did anyone consider catelyn as robbs heir?! She is lseen fingering the crown and pondering....

[@absalomvane7776]

Not to be rude, but that's completely nonsensical. An heir continues not just your work, but your bloodline. Robb objected to his cousins from the Vale because they weren't from the north... well neither is Catelyn. And he wanted to keep Winterfell out of the Lannister hands, but Catelyn's death would mean Winterfell goes to Sansa and Tyrion, making Robb's will utterly pointless.

[@darrylseymour]

@@absalomvane7776 Catelyn is from the North. She lives there. She knows the north very well at this point.

[@absalomvane7776]

@@darrylseymour Catelyn is from the Riverlands, not the north. Her interactions in the books show that the northern lords afford her leeway and a degree of respect as Ned's wife, but it's asinine to believe that will extend to obeying her rule: They did, after all, totally ignore her counsel. I'll assume you ignore every other point I made because you can't argue against them.

[@emma_green]

​@@absalomvane7776don't bother with "not to be rude" if you intend to be rude. A lot more people have thought of the idea that Rob named Cat as his heir, and while I'm not a believer, it's fun to theorize. At lest, it's supposed to be fun.

[@doghat1619]

​@@absalomvane7776Catelyn is more of the North than Jon. She's spent an adult life there, whereas Jon is barely a man grown. She has helped rule the North for a generation, whereas Jon has held one leadership position, something he did so badly he was stabbed to death. Catelyn has blood ties directly to the riverlands, half of Robb's Kingdo., Jon has never even been to the Riverlands. Catelyn for these reasons is far far more suitable as an heir than Jon. Succession doesn't matter. Look at the Tyrell's, they KNOW Joffrey is a bastard, but they support Renly, and then Joffrey, rather than the proper bloodline successor of Stannis. People talk about bloodlines but they only matter when people stand to gain from it, more people stand to gain from Cat over Jon.

[@aaronbaron3155]

I've said this before. All of you guys that make content about asoiaf need to get together and write the last two books. I REALLY doubt that doing this is even on George's mind anymore...

[@Goldilockszone123]

Jeyne Westerling’s grandmother was Maggi the Frog. The Westerlings would know Cersei’s prophecy and could guess the effects upon Lannister power. Jeyne is pregnant with Robs child just to complicate Robb’s will ultimately becoming Lord of Winterfell Sansa becoming a reagent lady of Winterfell like Cersei except morally more correct.

[@jenniferpound4979]

I agree that it can’t be coincidence that Jeyne is decended from Maggi the Frog. There has got to be a tie in there. But didn’t Jaime express that he was pretty certain she was not with child?

[@Goldilockszone123]

@@jenniferpound4979 yes he did. When he asks Jeyne attempts to run from the room. It’s her mother who answers that she has been giving Jeyne something to keep her from getting pregnant which while not proof strikes me as odd. Tywin when explaining the situation says she is her mothers daughter and Rob his fathers son. This applies to Isabel Westerling also, the daughter of Maggi. I just think with Tywins death, Cersei’s situation that George is suggesting Jeyne is pregnant. Could be wrong of course . I thought I was wrong once before, but later found that I was mistaken, lol. It just seems like a good fit and is fun to think about.

[@Goldilockszone123]

Please tell me what you think. Don’t be afraid of hurting my feelings. This should all be in fun.

[@MagnaMater2]

I think it's the wrong girl. The Lannisters have the wrong girl. Because Catelyn said she has wide hips suiting childbearing, while Jaime thinks she has narrow hips. This is not the same girl, either a sister or a servant, just like Jeyne Pool was switched for Arya.

[@Goldilockszone123]

@@MagnaMater2 that is a great observation and I remember reading that now.

[@BeteBlanc]

I understand why the average theorist thinks Jon was named the heir. But you brought up the biggest elephant in the room question. Why would nothing of this have made it to Jon? Fundamentally I think the issue is that reads want.a clear answer. However, I don't think the will says what most think. Robb was in a tough position. What he wants is to avoid chaos and conflict within his own kingdom. His wife could have gotten pregnant, he doesn't know. Even to the point Jaime shows up there was still a worry she might. Robb isn't planning to die. He knows where all the potential heir are now, but not where they might be when he does. He needs to leave behind a singular answer to who his heir is. How do you do that? You don't name an heir. You name a heirmaker. Catelyn was sent to Seaguard to be secured because she's his heirmaker. Someone all the Lords could expect to know what Ned and Robb would do. What about the arguement? The arguement was because Robb wanted to impress upon her that any heir considered had to he a child of Ned. Without that she'd be tempted to look for heirs in the Vale. The tricky bit. The will probably legitimizes Jon. It doesn't make him the heir explicitly, it allows him to be the heir. There's no point disinheriting his sisters and potential son when a son might exist or his sisters recovered. Naming his mother gives him the ability to leave behind a clear heir without disqualifying a better one based on what the ground looked like in the moment. Why is Cat back? Why is she working so hard to reach a daughter rather than hire someone to get her to Jon? She's avoiding it like greyscale because she wants someone else. Why has no one else gone to Jon? Because the will names Cat and they think she's dead. Because they think his heirmaker is gone forever they're all trying to take her place to make their own heir. If it named Jon they'd all be trying to kill him to invalidate it. They don't even consider it, because they aren't worried about it.

[@robertflintoft5614]

Not my original idea but i believe its Cat who Robb names. Robbs kingdom isnt just the north but also the Riverlands he needs someone to tie both together. She has noted she could still have children and Robb seems to be preparing to marry her to Jason Maylister. Finally she has her own heir in her brother who was about to marry and would be expected to have children. Cat also notes that she hopes the trap Robb sets for the ironborn is as good as the one he set her which doesn't make masses of sense unless he did something in that will that she was trapped into. He could well have threatened her with Jon so that when he named her she was stuck with it

[@darrylseymour]

George himself has said we don't know who Robb named in the will. It's a mystery and I highly doubt the answer to this mystery is that it's Jon Snow.

[@darrylseymour]

It's really weird that people believe Jon Snow being named in the will is a fact.

[@jacobenke7936]

Sansa and Cat make no sense for various reasons. The North wouldn't accept either of them as de facto rulers. All his other siblings are presumed dead. The distant relatives he has in the Vale didn't rise to help in the first place and know nothing of the North. Jon makes the most sense in this situation given that he's young and hasn't made a series of stupid choices (Cat is like 34 and has been a one woman wrecking crew in the war effort on behalf of their enemies. She MIGHT be able to have another child. Not a good chance to take.

[@doghat1619]

​@@jacobenke7936Jon's mistakes were so numerous his own men stabbed him to death. Cat's mistakes led to... Lord Karstark disliking her and killing some prisoners? What exactly has Cat done wrong that Jon hasn't done worse. He's a wildling loving, oath breaker, who openly vows he's going to desert the watch, which he swore a vow to.

[@jacobenke7936]

@@doghat1619 I don't think we've been reading the same story.

[@jeffseidl]

Keep doing a great job you guys, one of my favorite shows for years now…absurd to think it’s been so many years and we still don’t have new books but that’s okay 🥲