The Role Queue Conundrum Of Overwatch

[@VouDouLouYT]

This is the single best video to explain what went wrong with the gameplay aspects of OW. I don't think you could have said it any better.

[@huntish3760]

The reason they added 2-2-2 to the OverWatch League was to make it so that they're playing the same version of competitive that other regular people are playing in the base game. It would be strange for them to make competitive a completely different format than the overwatch League.

[@lefffbezos4896]

No, it was to kill GOATS

[@huntish3760]

@@lefffbezos4896 I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that if 2-2-2 was going to be in regular competitive then obviously they would put the same restrictions on the esport version of OverWatch. The entire point of the OverWatch League is to be as close to competitive OverWatch as possible to sell the idea that regular players can go pro. Also GOATS sucked anyway so I really couldn't care less if they got rid of it.

[@RIP_ZYZZ1738]

​@@huntish3760You cannot understand the points that people make, can you?

[@Blake_murray16]

Real talk, the reason I like role queue so much is because if you have a team of all DPS you will lose 90% of the time. A team of all support will roll you, or a team of all tanks will roll you. But if you’re on the opposite side of that and have an all tank or all support team then you just win every time. Role queue makes it somewhat fair.

[@devlinarchery9798]

All can BE fixed If Blizzard would usw statistics and Data ... They know what Heroes U Play Most (all Playerbase Up to gm Play around 2or3 Heroes and mostly Just 1 class) Usw that Info and Put people from statistically different classes in the Same Team IT makes IT Not Impossible to have Shit Teams But better + Open q can have a "force role system" where If U have 3 people or 4 agreed U force that 5 one in that class/Hero Obviously Not when 3/4 stacking cause Trolls and such Bit U get the Idea Surely Blizzards genious devs will have even better and more ideas

[@AQMPolyface]

​@@devlinarchery9798it would make queue time way too long in master/gm

[@justacasualguy13]

@@devlinarchery9798 that just sounds like a much more confusing and convoluted way to achieve what role queue did

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@AQMPolyface IT already was Back then and now top 500 in ow 2 IS a Joke ...

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@justacasualguy13 role q Had way more issues that came with IT... And IT removed fun for of Players + also my Version wouldnt Change anything for the Players of the Game ... IT would only mean Work for the devs... (No confusion therefore) the role q Changed Players experiences and directly Changed everything regarding teamfloe and q Times .... But whatever everyone IS entitiled to their own opinion

[@rangerguy]

Im so glad open queue isnt the only mode. It was impossible to manage as a solo queue player. Though role queue could use some work. Like less strict on the 2(1)-2-2 format. I also wanna see 6v6 back

[@maddoxbellrose7679]

You didn't have me for the most part but your ending had me speechless and truly made me understand your point, awesome job.

[@kamranahmad588]

Anybody that says that it is possible to balance an open queue format is living in la la land

[@huntish3760]

I completely agree. I never want to have to beg people to play support again.

[@ripliq6736]

I agree so much. I was the flex player and I hated this shit. I don't want to talk to people and ask them to switch from 5 DPS that they choose. Role q is great addition and sometimes people should not have so much choice cuz it makes things worse

[@maskedsausage9431]

It IS POSSIBLE, it's just incredibly difficult. Just because a game is balanced, doesn't mean people want to play the balanced counterplay.

[@Kamil_Horvath]

Games like TF2 shows that a format in the style of open queue is very possible to balance. It just wouldn't be the same game anymore. Making the roles have different play styles and priorities was a deliberate choice by the overwatch dev team because that's how they wanted the game to be played. They could 100% balance around open queue like they tied at the game's launch, but it isn't the same experience anymore then. Role queue was just a choice that they felt better fit their vision for the game

[@Thickdickdaddy420]

​@Kamil_Horvath tf 2 is a casual game though first and foremost,ow 2 is also mostly casual but also competitive because there is enough depth there,it's a weird balancing act they have to do to keep both player bases happy

[@devlinarchery9798]

I played overwatch ever since it came out ... I scrimmed a lot ... Hell even reached top 500 multiple times... And overwatch 2 season 1-3 were a total letdown and killed my love or any excitement i ever pretended to have in it ... Season 4 my friend forced me into open q and pls just give it a try! Overwatch 1 role Q was kinda positive or it felt that way ... I enjoyed it because it assured a at least half way good team comp and made matches seem more consistant and less frustrating... One could really always say "gg they beat us fair and square" and not "bg lost cause teammates picked 5 dps" In overwatch 2 however I despise role q It feels nothing like overwatch ... Tanks are what made overwatch unique ... The fact that is wasnt a shooter like aim pew pew all the time but one had the option of going at almost any kind of hero there is with each offering unique playsstyles on top ... That is overwatch FOR Me ... Not being dependant on your tank to not only know counterpicking as a concept then executing it and on top knowing how to play all heroes ... Or its gg by default is a TERRIBLE feeling ... In overwatch one that was offset by 1 main tank being maybe not as good as enemy but u also had an offtank that could carry ... But nope no more in ow 2... Tank synergies are the best ... And i am a support main and i loved all the positivity in voicechat when a zarya saved their winston with bubble or stuff like that but all of it died in ow 2 ... Or so i thought... I present to you Overwatch 2 open Q Ok hear me out! Its not perfect but its the closest thing we have ... If u play competitive I playes it for 2 seasons now over 500 matches and didnt have a single case of 4 dps throws or similar (played on multiple accound from plat -top 500) Its a BLAST (down memory lane) ... Tanks dont feel impossible to kill (like they do in normal q (i play bap and i can 1 v 1 most tanks with success (if i play good) And on top of that the playerbase (eu) is much happier and join voicechat (Which they never do in role q ... Any rank from bronze to top 500 in my experience) There still is the dominating meta of 3 tanks 2 supports BUT its mich less dominant Because tanks have way less health A simple pharah or bastion pick forces of of 3-2 My favourite is that u can fuck around and things work! I playsd a 4 support 1 dps setup and won like 10 games that way even against new goats tryhard comp I could go. On and on but this is already WAY to much Overall overwatch 2 open q is a lot of and you ... Yes you reading this! Should give it a try ... Even no especially if u have lost hope in overwatch 2 cause imo its definitly good arguably the best of both worlds ( overwatch 2 reworks and helath changes + old synergies and freedom If u are as lucky as i am with my experience) But either way just give it a few matches and see how it feels ... Except if u are toxic rager and or a screamer ... In that case please leave my peaceful open q alone and let it remain my little safeheaven THX

[@jetstreamsad2458]

Oh my god type more periodts please

[@NotMadaraaa]

Telling someone to play open q is the worst idea ever

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@NotMadaraaa clearly you are a lost cause and should Not watch this Channel anymore

[@mafikdew78]

Open queue is so much better with two tanks

[@IOUAK9]

I saw the quickplay classic banner from OW1's arcade and I cried inside. The ending of OW1 was unironically (at least for me) the most balanced the game has been and I played the hell out of the game on its last days. Great research and editing btw.

[@Cyrax559]

new zanbot video lets gooo I love listening to these

[@vishkarcorp]

its very soothing to hear you talk even if i dont agree with much of what you said

[@aeloh6921]

I dunno man, just mathematically speaking without hero selection criteria the number of possible team compositions and potential synergies etc becomes absurdly unpredictable and hard to balance and manage. Even if the roles are basically just superimposed and are in some way arbitrary, the creation of classes and roles dramatically simplifies not only balance but core definitions of standard gameplay and mechanics. I feel that having no role lock or allowing duplicate hero picks quickly dissolves into an incoherent mess. I get that you feel it's a cheap way out of addressing core design issues of heroes but I feel you're underestimating the scale of the task (the task of balancing such a complex game without enforcing some limitations). I think drawing these boundaries refines and distills the game into something more coherent and comprehendible. I don't think that no limits open que could ever be a serious competitive mode. Balancing would be an endless game of whack-a-mole as creative players constantly find new ways to cheese wins with scam strategies etc. Don't get me wrong, scam strategies still exist in 5v5 role que but it severely limits the options making dealing with such issues in the future more manageable. It isn't sexy but open que is doomed to be a clown show in my opinion and I don't think it's fixable.

[@devlinarchery9798]

How i would fix role Q: Allow 2 Players to "trade roles" and Put No Limit on amount of Trades Then get rid of role q specific Ranks and make one role q Rank instead of the 3 individual ones... And how to fix Open q: Blizzard usw the fucking Data! U have Access to peoples most played / least played Heroes ... Check If U have people that are statistically likely to Pick what role and Mix those together ... With the odds being Higher to BE 1-2-2 or whatever the fuck they want... ITS Not Rocket science IT gives the Player the Option to have freedo while leaving more consistant Games without Trash 5 DPS comps... Balencing all the Heroes IS Not necessary in Open q... Only maybe HP of the Tanks ... If abilities are Not balenced in role q (they are Not) then they wont BE in Open q and the other way around 2 shields Cause U Play Open q ? No Problem U Pick Bastion Spam or a Dive to get in there... Which Brings me to a General Thing the devs should add... A fucking "Tip" bar that tells you what you should do against a certain Problem LIKE: (Enemy Has a pharmercy) The Tip would be: Hitscan IS strong against pharmercy ... Focus Mercy to keep from heal or usw 1 Shot Heroes Like widow or when U Play Tank the Tip would be to Take DVA or in Support Ana /Brig for shields or bap If U feel confident Just a Tip / counterpick chart in Game would Go hard

[@zanbot6842]

My issue with the "too difficult to balance" argument is, as much as this is a video meant to stir discussions on fixing the game/design philosophy, it is ultimately not the onus of the player base to worry about how difficult it is to balance the game. That responsibility lies solely on Blizzard. That said, I do think Overwatch's history of poor balancing is not a basis to discount the idea of a balanced competitive open queue format, considering it's not controversial to say that the Overwatch team hasn't really been blessed with the best balancing team on hand since its inception... It's hard to say what could have been if things were different. Overwatch is sold on its now 37 heroes and the diversity of hero playstyles and fantasies that each playstyle facilitates, but role queue in the live 1-2-2 format has already compromised severely on the hero fantasies of many existing heroes like Cassidy, Mei, Sombra and Doomfist, where their CC oriented abilities "don't fit into a 5v5 DPS hero", or with the recent nerfs to snipers where their hero fantasies are indeed put in the backseat regardless of the balance situation pertaining to 5v5, or even the entire Support class where there's just this expectation for every Support hero to offer healing on demand regardless of their hero fantasy. To use role queue as a competitive balancing pillar isn't just simplifying the definitions of standard gameplay and mechanics, it's really informing how heroes must be strictly designed in a role queue paradigm that the Overwatch fantasy simply isn't sold on, and who knows how many heroes were simply scrapped when their concepts fail to meet the standards of the current role distribution paradigm. To accept the premise of role queue as a competitive balancing pillar for Overwatch, is to open the floodgates for the game to be reformatted every time the developers deem the meta to be unsalvageable in the current format. It's how we started when the developers failed to fix GOATS with balancing, it's how we got 1-2-2 when the developers failed to balance out the double barrier meta in 2-2-2, and at this rate we could really prepare ourselves for a future 1-2-1 update since the premise of role queue as a balancing pillar remains highly accepted.

[@ToolboxMotley]

Impressive editing and in-game-skit-ing!

[@AlfaZafire]

Damn, it's a really well edited video

[@SmilingSunZ]

Love the video and everything, but the 2-2-2 idea was always in the game since the beginning. If you had one less tank or one less support the game would legit tell you in the middle right corner. From the beginning you were supposed to play 2-2-2, they just “enforced” it with role q bc shit like goats and off meta teams getting stomped isn’t exactly great game balance (not like they know what that is now anyways)

[@cementos7922]

Most intelligent overwatch video I've ever seen. No cap

[@ritizmotheruler6789]

GOOD SHIT, THAT'S GOOD SHIT RIGHT THERE!

[@wm8401]

Enjoyed the vid.

[@its_lucky2526]

"queue times skyrocketed for the tank players" i wish 💀

[@alexandredesouza3692]

I want an 8v8, Open Queue mode in the main tab with all modes including Assault, _maybe_ CTF and/or TDM. Also, regular old 6v6, with or without Role Queue.

[@NotMadaraaa]

??? What the hell would be the point of a 8v8. Sounds like a bronze players dream

[@alexandredesouza3692]

@NotMadaraaa Exactly. Because the point of a videogame is to have fun.

[@aeloh6921]

Why stop there? Let's give 10v10 a try

[@alexandredesouza3692]

@aeloh6921 I shudder to imagine what the particle effects spawned from a 10v10 match in Overwatch might do to my poor Windows XP.

[@aeloh6921]

@@alexandredesouza3692 You are afraid, yet find yourself tantalized. Roll for initiative.

[@Ethan-iu2sp]

i think that the dev team already knows how to perfectly balance overwatch, but decides not to. Either that or it is impossible to balance the game without big adjustments to the kits of many characters. The biggest problem i think lies in the players themselves and how their mentality affects their enjoyment for the game. because as we all know the dedicated community for pretty much all blizzard games are always complaining and bitching to the devs, while the less active and "chill" playerbase mostly has no problems. I've played thousands of hours accross numerous games including overwatch and I actually think the games are well designed and balanced (not perfect) but good enough to be enjoyable, and everything can be played around if you are smart and good enough.

[@devlinarchery9798]

All WE want IS the devs to Just listen to Player Feedback ... At least explain why they ignore US ... The reason they DONT IS cause they DONT Care ... Blizzard IS Money hungry and are incompetent ... Ow cant BE perfectly balenced But anyone that plays their Game more actively would be a better developer

[@Ethan-iu2sp]

@@devlinarchery9798 If im being honest the player base is full of mostly incompetent people who always bitch and complain. People don't like losing, so they complain about what they most often lose to. Everyone wants their own things changed in the game and if the devs actually actively listened to the community the game would go to shit immediately. And i've seen alot of scenarios where the devs do actually listen to what people want changed. And no shit blizzard wants profit and money, the literally the core fundamental goal of every business ever .. there nothing wrong with that being the companies top priority.

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@Ethan-iu2sp honestly. .. good point

[@BlazerMinecrafter]

ok but i think youre misunderstanding why they added role queue, they added it because it feels like absolute shit to join a supposedly ranked competitive match only to auto lose because the 5 randos on your team arent playing the meta 6 tank team or 6 whatever hero or whatever, its why they framed it as match quality In open queue you simply auto lose if your team plays off meta roles/heroes and the enemy doesnt. Its the same approach other competitive stuff like league of legends takes. Like imagine climbing league ladder and hoping your team doesnt pick 3 junglers on top of being better than the enemy team. Removing that stuff just makes the game feel better to play in the long run

[@kamranahmad588]

Role queue also saved quick play in my opinion. Quick play before role queue was essentially just deathmatch with a payload

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@kamranahmad588 you obviously didnt Play during that time ... I am sry

[@NotMadaraaa]

@@devlinarchery9798??

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@NotMadaraaa did i @ you?

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@NotMadaraaa But lets @ you now ... The creators IS Not even arguing that role q IS negative ... All He IS saying IS that 1-2-2 IS a result of the role q system and that in His opinion 5v5 IS worse than 6 v 6 because 2 Tanks are what Made overwatch overwatch ... And in His own opinion they sould have Made Open q a seperate Thing from role q But in the Same Level instead of Just pretending IT tonbe a replacement

[@IsfetSolaris]

Let's be honest, role queue was actually implemented to stop the stupidity that was GOATS lol

[@toastfy]

when's the next video

[@keg7991]

The issue with overwatch will be and always will be the sheer incompetence of the dev team, the dev team has what í'd call "great world building and charismatic design" but lacks the ability to think laterally and delve deep into understanding the intricacies of the game. This is something common in pretty much all online games atp with slim exceptions. For example, even league of legends which IMO probably has one of the best dev teams in general still completely sucks ass. The philosophy of these devs seems to be honestly delusional. If we look at overwatch, the primary issue is that the devs don't even know how you play the game. And you might ask? wdym they have like grandmaster and t500 players and devs who have been working for 20+ years! Well the reason that has no effect is the majority of game devs have lots of practice designing TOYS not SPORTS a sport is completely different to a TOY. A toy exists in a vacuum, no balance exists within it. A sport is about the relationship between to parties playing. So of course they have no fucking idea what they're doing and just shoot shit at the wall. In overwatch there is the trinity of: burst, poke, brawl. These are the 3 primary team comps which rotate between metas. Goats is an example of brawl. Dive is an example of burst. Sniper meta is an example of poke. Yet i guarentee you little to no one in the dev team is EVEN AWARE that there is such a thing as "primary team comps". They think in these linear terms of "OH WE MUST MAKE THE HERO PICK RATE GO UP!!!" not, oh well if this type of team comp is overly prevalent, maybe we should look at the underlying ethos in the heroes who are prevalent to dissect the issue. And so you end up with shitty one size fits all solutions like UHH LETS MAKE A HERO WHO'S LIKE A TANK AND A DPS AND A SUPPORT ALL AT ONCE AND WE WILL CALL HER BRIGG OOPS! SHES BUSTED WHO WOULD'VE GUESSED!!!

[@devlinarchery9798]

To BE fair most Players have No clue about the comps either ... And with 1-2-2 all of the comps U listed are now more of Hybrids ... The devs are Not only incompetent But newbies ... They Lack experience and they DONT give a fuck Blizzards and the devs biggest Problem IS and Always will BE their attidute ... They think they know better! ... They Always did and Always will ... They think they know what their consumers wants more than the consumers themselves apparently ... I DONT think top 500 should BE the only people they balence this Game for BUT i think If anyone would Talk to overwatch Coaches, people that really get the Game and all ITS Potential (ow 1) they would realize that maybe they should explain the Game to their own Playerbase... Tell them about FLEX/Main Supports Or Projektile vs hitscan DPS and the middle cases Like symm etc Show them examples of good Team comps or stategies in your own fucking "Tutorial" Or at the very least have a Tip feature Like ow 1 Had Just more fleshed Out showing counterpicks ... Cause Low Eli Players DONT know them In General Blizzard needs to Accept foremost that they are Not better than anybody ... But instead worst than most

[@Thickdickdaddy420]

Tbh that was back when they were focused only on casual players before they realized they have to consider high rank players as well,I think for ow 2 they've mostly done a good job catering to both and balance after season 2 has been good. Still some baffling decisions being made though.

[@keg7991]

I would say the devs don't cater to either high rank or low rank players, they cater to the bottom line and to keeping their jobs which is a very bad model for when you are designing something as precarious as a competitive game.

[@NotMadaraaa]

You said a lot of nothing

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@NotMadaraaa and your comments proves what your head IS filled with ... Notihng

[@devlinarchery9798]

Good video ignore the haters in the comments ❤

[@vishkarcorp]

its a video game it is not that serious, if youre gonna meat ride then at least do it with proper capitalization n spelling

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@vishkarcorp ?

[@pflh2391]

7:40 i'd like to disagree, i think it's irrational to assume that a good chunk of people left overwatch just because of role queue. there are a lot of other variables that made them hooked on overwatch in the first place. you seem to put too much weigh and importance on role queue's effect on people leaving.

[@devlinarchery9798]

Looking at the Player amount of active Players ... There IS a Not insignificant amount of Player that Left 1-4 weeks after role q was introduced in to competitive There might BE some other reason But statistically ITS Not neglegable

[@in2deep41]

Well created content, but like others have said i disagree entirely. Overwatch has too many and too varied heroes to not have controls around competitive. The functional game you are advocating for would either make many heroes worthless for long periods like goats, or all characters get watered down where their uniqueness isnt as impactful so it can be balanced. Throw in map differences, random queue, and varied playstyle and strategies that its either random chaos or the hard meta.

[@devlinarchery9798]

I could Go in with rational and Logic Here But AS U didnt ... I Just Type L + Ratio + U didnt get the Point of the Video AT ALL

[@VouDouLouYT]

"It is appropriate to solve meta imbalances by changing the rules of the game." The simplest definition of why this game has bled out the majority of its playerbase. They should go back to the core aspects of what drew people towards the game back during its hayday and ignore the whiners who advocated these game ruining changes.

[@nikpalagaming8610]

Open queue is just shit, you are totally reliant on your team mates to create a balanced team. I would play role queue & take the lottery of having a doomfist tank player once every few games rather than play the circus that's open queue.

[@devlinarchery9798]

Open q IS literally better than role q at this Point of overwatch 2

[@NotMadaraaa]

@@devlinarchery9798you’re actually not well in the head

[@kamranahmad588]

Zanbot has great production quality but like the worst takes I swear

[@Kamil_Horvath]

Let just get this right. Your entire argument against Role queue is based on your ide that role queue is strictly in place as a hot fix for faulty hero design because "Ability overlap = Bad!" Even though the devs specifically said it was to "improve match quality" (in which they usually just mean: How good it feels to play a match) and let people play the characters they want. Jeff even acknowledged that they could have balanced the game without role queue but still decided to add it. I usuale like your stuff, but this video seriously just feels like you ignoring the words of the developers and staiting things as fact just to prove that your preferred version of the game is better than the current.

[@devlinarchery9798]

Balencing IS subjective ... We the OG Player Base that played since overwatch 1 2016 saw a Version of overwatch and Loved that Version! Them changing IT was Not Just to "make Games feel better" IT was Changed die to an OWL Problem CALLED goats and an outcry that Matches should Not BE defined by 1 meta for over 1 year ... Also the bigger Problem was that DPS Players are the majority of Players and they Had No reason to exist in that meta The Point IS that they forced a Change to the original Game that on the surface IS a "cheap shot" They are now even solving Open q by lowering Tanks health in that Mode! And in retrospect we OGs are thinking "hey, why didnt WE try to addapt a similar Thing Back in goats?" ITS a simple If clauses (If more than 2 Tanks in Team then lower health in those Tanks) But the devs decided Not to listen to any of Players Feedback and introduced a system that Kills Players freedom! How often did you have 2 DPS that Just suck... Enemy plays pharah and U cant kill her in your role effectevily ... All that could BE solved If U could Switch to soldier ... U get the Idea Role q also introduced abismal q Times which Made a Lot of people leave overwatch in top 500 because 20 min Minimum IS Not fun for A 10 min Game... On top of that the biggest offender that this KZbin Video creators Has IS the new 1 Tank 2 2 system ... And obviously IT IS subjective ... Some might enjoy IT ... But Most people i know and Most of Players and creators DO NOT They dispise IT And for good reason, because 1 Tank means: -More snowball effect If Just 1 Player (Tank) is Bad = insta loss instead of before needing 2 Tanks to throw) - pro Player Teams have lost Tank positions ... A Lot of Work went down the shitter - Sniper/one shots rule the Game - the new Change (5 v 5) wasnt necessary since WE got rid of CC anyway All in all this new overwatch doesnt feel AS Well AS the original did ... The Change started with role q which was sort of positive and turned Info a Nightmare in overwatch2 Open q IS now the Superior mode

[@Kamil_Horvath]

@@devlinarchery9798 I strongly disagree. But i guess it's as you say. Balance is subjective. I just really like having 2 tanks less to keep track of during battles, having less shields to shoot at and being sure that when i queue for a match i get to play the role i want with the guarantee that we have both tanks and supports on our team. But I also like push, The removal of 2CP and is super hyped for Flash point, so what do I know.

[@devlinarchery9798]

@@Kamil_Horvath ya ITS Just a result of the Game changing ... Some Like IT Others DONT... ITS Just a Natural Progression Statistically tho i will never understand why they Made those Changes since overwatch used to BE Game of the year and very successful and ever since goats ... ITS in ITS dying bed They Made IT more Shooter Like and thats fine But simply Not what i asked for personally and Not what of Players Fell in Love with ITS Just a Personal opinion (Same with the creators of that vid)

[@zanbot6842]

I wouldn't rely on anything "the devs said", considering the video already argues why their words cannot be taken at said face value, and we all ought to know Team 4's track record of integrity and transparency by now... As you said, the developers claimed they could have balanced the game without role queue (I highly doubt they were honest about how they felt) but chose not to do so. Numerically, it is just easier to balance accounting only for a single strict role distribution rather than any variation of such, so there's good reason to believe that's precisely why they made the shift towards role queue as the sole competitive format, at least more than whatever QOL reasons they were spouting back in the day, which is entirely non-applicable to why they made this shift for OWL. It's perfectly fine to prefer 1-2-2 or 2-2-2 or any variation of role queue or open queue. Which is why the video doesn't advocate for the removal of role queue, but merely argues against the premise of role queue as a substitute for balancing, because if the balance of the game had still accounted for an open queue format, as the developers claimed they were entirely competent to do so, ideally any variation of a 2-2-2 or 3-0-3 or 1-3-2 or 1-4-1 team composition would be balanced to duke out against any other team composition, while still allowing for a balanced 1-2-2/2-2-2 mode that facilitates the role queue experience that many existing players like yourself prefer. I think a more concrete solution would be to fix the root underlying systems and hero design philosophies that cumulate into feelings of frustration typically associated with a "non-functioning team composition", rather than having the developers rely on reformatting their game as a clutch as and whenever they feel like they've hit a balancing roadblock. While you may like the 1-2-2 format currently, with role queue as a pillar of balancing currently, there's no guarantee this distribution would stay this way in the long term once the developers deem there be yet another "unfixable" meta in this format.

[@soloshottie]

role queue was 100% a qol change, it accomplishes everything Jeff Kaplan said. the reason it was implemented in OWL to keep the gameplay experience consistent between pro matches and everyday gamer matches, also for consistency when watching. in fact, if the base game had role queue but OWL matches didnt, the only way for OWL players to practice effectively would be custom matches with role queue off (or open queue since they did decide to keep that around.) also balancing definitely changes with a role queue system. granted if the game were perfectly balanced it wouldnt change much, but role queue is undeniably different from open queue. balancing a game for open queue involves many different combinations of heroes and role counts, to include zero in or even two roles. if the game were balanced around that possibility, all heroes would need to be viable independently. but in role queue, you know for a fact every match will have a certain number of each role. this allows the devs to balance heroes with very exploitable weaknesses designed to be offsettable by another member of the team in a role that is gauranteed to be filled. competitive open queue was removed because it wasnt competitively sound, especially with random players involved and the new balancing philosophy inherent to the nature of role queue. it was reinstated because people liked it enough. it's really that simple sure it's true that role queue's implementation caused the downfall of goats, and the decision to add role queue may have been inspired by how problematic goats was, but role queue improved the game as it was initially designed to be even without considering goats. it isnt a stretch to think the devs saw the goats meta, noticed that no dps roles were involved, and during balance talks realized it was a issue with the game at large. also Overwatch nowadays is a game about heroes AND classes. the hero focus in the design has not been abandoned in favor of a focus on the roles those heroes, they coexist and support each other. the heroes are still the core allure for the game, but the roles are the core structure of the game and have been for most of the games life. regarding the examples of Sym and Sombra, they're hybrid role characters with a central focus on one. both are primarily damage dealing characters, but each has additional traits you would first associate with another role. Sym has tanking traits with the crwod control of her turrets and ultimate barrier and increased health with minor support frok her tp. Sombra has additional support utility from her hack. they arent "uncategorizeable" they're hybridized, and they're far from the only ones or even the most extreme examples. though there arent many hybrid characters and that should definitely change

[@soloshottie]

none of this is to defend 5v5 by the way, only role queue as a concept. having only 1 tank instead of 2 has a lot of consequences that I doubt they thought about, namely what's mentioned in the beginning with tanks being much more rock/paper/scissory, in addition to the fact that tank players cant handle every task their role requires them to handle at once, which is what the second tank was for, and the 1 tank player on a given team cant be mitigated if they're doing a poor job because there's no second tank player to turn to. trust me, I was a tank main in ow1. although the tank fantasy in some sense is stronger now than ever before, it's also much more frustrating. I main support now, but my favorite characters are tamk hybrids. Brig and Mei specifically in their respective roles

[@mads2486]

honestly, i prefer role q. the game is just a ton more playable now. It makes it less overwhelming for new players, and it gives the game a sort of definition. i've seen people say that they preferred the original freedom of open q, not having to play a certain role, etc. but back then, i remember having to play roles i didnt like because nobody else would. the game's a ton more enjoyable now that people actually play the roles that they want, while being in a balanced environment. im sorry but i really dont see a downside to role q

[@devlinarchery9798]

Role q IS Trash If you DONT See downsides pls Open your eyes

[@mads2486]

@@devlinarchery9798 the only downside i could imagine would be not being able to swap between classes mid game. like, going from support to dps depending on whos better at what individual hero. But i think that the structure it gives overwatch is a MILLION times better

[@senormacaco2834]

I miss 2-2-2

[@ihyghxstt]

Sigma would have NEVER fit into Goats, he is a poke based tank that directly clashes with the brawl style of gameplay that goats thrives off of 😂

[@kamranahmad588]

Sigma is good in poke but his versatile shield ,grasp and stun are all great abilities to complement a brawl comp. And the medium range damage and flux. He could easily fit into some variation of GOATS

[@leonpowers8543]

"PromoSM" ✨

[@luxyj4728]

Started playing overwatch this year,co coworker got me into it so I can't compare I just have to say the overwatch spokesman guy or what ever sound so unenthusiastic about his own game. Maybe that just how he talks but he talks like it's such a burden to explain the new changes. Btw yeah mnay ppl feel tye only make changes for pro play my co worker told me that first week lol

[@ginpachi1]

Meanwhile, in Paladins, 3 dps and 2 flankers. 😂

[@NotMadaraaa]

Why do you keep saying “not what I signed up for in 2017” as if it was some kinda magical experience to play 3 tanks and double shield. You said a lot of words but most of them were just fluff. Your main point when ignoring the word clutter seems to be that the game should be based around Hero’s not roles but the problem is this doesn’t apply to anyone but the 5 characters in the game with major utility. Most characters are relatively straight forward. I mean look at open queue now? Does anyone run smart utility based compositions? Or do they just run 3 tanks 2 dps and switch to a healer when they start losing. I think you’re living in some sort of LaLa land that somehow overwatch players would come together and play smart comps in a open queue environment. Maybe in OWL they would take advantage but the average gold lacky is gonna run 3 dps 2 tanks then a healer when losing. I think the main problem with ow and 5v5 is not role lock but the fact that with such a small team, just 1 person not playing well can mean a loss or 80% chance of losing. My fix would be maybe a experimental 6v6 role queue but double shield would be a banned team comp. This would NOT be some magical fix like people think 6v6 would be but I think it’s a step in good direction and can help lessen the effect of losing because of 1 person not playing well. Don’t know how someone could come to the conclusion that’s it’s just role locks fault when open queue is still a thing and it’s a cluster of actual nonsense even in the high ranks. So the question pretty much is do we BAN double shield to force 6v6 back in the game or do we keep how it is now where you can play any tank.

[@Prplblur]

I love rq just for not playing with 4-5 dps and 1-2 supports. I hate when support onetrick decides to play dps in comp and never swaps

[@rexoverwatch]

if Rein had 1000000hp he'd be OP, if he had 100hp he'd be a throw pick....likewise it is possible to give mercy 1000000000hp and still make her balanced, just put rez on a 3 minute timer blue beam boosts one percent and yellow beam heals 1hp every every 5seconds.........balance and design have nothing to do with each other....balance is done by numbers alone

[@TheRedRos]

it sounds like u r trying to make a point but also u have no point?

[@devlinarchery9798]

I know what you are saying But Just a nitpick ... A Mercy with x thousand HP would Not BE balenced in Anyway No Matter how little she can do except If U Cut her Guardian Angel "JUMP" and the ability move with wasd cause she would Just Stall Point indefinitly

[@devlinarchery9798]

​@@TheRedRosHis Point IS that balenced and Gamedesign have nothing in commen (which has nth to do with His ramblings) But Its not true that balencing cant BE affected by Game Design or the other way around... Cause we have role q and that was a Game Design Change that affected balencing KEKW His other Point IS that balencing IS a Numbers Thing... Which IS more interesting? I guess? Balencing AS the devs do IT atm IS a Numbers Game ... But IT IS Not Always only that ... Brig Dash stun during ult was a rework for balencing reasons and in General there can BE a Lot of non number related balence Things done ... For example passives or Just in General adding stuff New Maps might have Loop holes ... Fixing those IS balencing the Game and fixing exploits therefore making IT more balenced ... But to Hit a Bit Harder Here .. Lifeweaver IS a Hero (Not really He sucks) that IS unbalencable by sheer Numbers (arguably) Lifeweaver could do 1900 health regen with His little heals and still wouldnt BE a fun and balenced Hero ... No Matter what Numbers they Change He will never BE balenced ... Cause Kit sucks and other Heroes are Just better (arguably)

[@rexoverwatch]

@@devlinarchery9798 good point, so now we can change the game,,, no more stalling point, if there are 1 enemy and 5 teammates on point, the progress bar is 4/5ths of normal progress....but to my main point..balance is all about who is must picks in top500

[@rexoverwatch]

@@TheRedRos just because you don't understand me doesn't me there isn't a point

[@prismicle5572]

nuh uh

[@aeloh6921]

no way