Why ZywOo will never be better than s1mple / Astralis' revival - Counter-Points S2E18

Thorin and Maniac discuss ESL Pro League Grand Finals between MOUZ and Vitality, the skill that s1mple has always used that ZywOo needs to pick up on, Vitality's chances at winning the Shanghai Major, hype around the current Astralis lineup, blameF joining Fnatic, pro and community takes on dev1ce , and more.
Counter-Points is a Counter-Strike talk show, hosted by Duncan "Thorin" Shields and Mathieu "Maniac" Quiquerez.
This video was recorded on the 15th of May, 2024.
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0:00:00 - MOUZ
0:15:28 - ESL Pro League Grand Final
0:19:00 - Vitality
0:50:25 - Closing thoughts on EPL Grand Final
0:53:06 - Can this Vitality win the next Major?
0:55:41 - Astralis
1:07:48 - blameF to Fnatic
1:13:50 - Takes on dev1ce
1:24:53 - Role of coaches
#podcast
#counterstrike
#thorin

[@whoaitstiger]

I like this new phrase "here's the real joke of it all." It's a more dramatic version of "the joke is" and I'm onboard with it.

[@Alex_zer0_Shoveller]

one does not simply say what the joke is

[@whoaitstiger]

@@Alex_zer0_Shoveller Actually he did make a LOTR reference in this one too, saying Magisk was forged in the fires of Mount Doom.

[@realw1ll]

I can tell thorin is watching the nba playoffs right now with all these basketball references 🤣

[@Alex_zer0_Shoveller]

the bit about s1mple and zywoo was straight fire, one of the finest theory segments i've ever heard on a podcast

[@daveshenkurup8749]

Out of Snake and Banter, Hot take, and counter points, i gotta give it to counter points. Maniac and thorin compliment each other so well its truly a great way to hear about cs. Thanks for the upload!

[@Simtalnius]

Have to agree

[@j_kArn]

Gotta give hella credit to Thorin for all 3, all fire shows with different premises from each other while all 3 are still interesting and enjoyable. Carrying LFN, unlike confused and lost Richard, who for the most part only cares about drama.

[@orjay6745]

CounterPoints is the one with the best analysis, Snake and Banter has the most interesting Opinions and HTPM is just straight up entertaining. I think those 3 podcasts compliment themselves extremely well.

[@TheForesking]

@@j_kArn you’re acting like Thorin doesn’t constantly get involved in drama over the pettiest shit. The difference is that Richard’s content tends to be a lot more political and negative (Riot and Saudi as examples), whereas Thorin is more concerned with the game. Not saying that there’s anything wrong with it. I watch and enjoy the content from both, but it’s apples and oranges.

[@ElementalDj]

@@j_kArnWhat drama did Richard get into?

[@whosTage]

Maniac has to be my favorite analyst by far.

[@PrissyChey]

Me too

[@mattward5131]

I love y'all's last point about short term / surface level analysis. Maniac says it so well at the very end about how a player changing teams and having poor results after a month leads to unfair criticism from the community. Thanks so much to both of you for doing these detailed, in-depth analysis pieces to help us understand the game better.

[@KreepKii]

Mad props to Thorin for providing us banger content even when he is sick(and love to Maniac too of course)

[@8roma8]

That could be the zonic efect? As good as apex is, it is not enough on its own. When player are tilting, someone should take a pause and slap some of them so that they could wake up

[@ceezy1307]

Every time I see a counter-points uploaded ❤ it's gonna be a good hour

[@uv6821]

These two have really hit their stride. Watching their last couple - the chemistry keeps getting better!!

[@gargayt534]

Zywoo is a soldier, and a pretty strong one. But he is not a leader. MaT said a lot : he is our technical leader. It might be more difficult for him to become a vocal leader when he is not speaking in his native language.

[@freddiepullman5132]

Agreed with the not being a leader of men type personality, but the native language point is not good enough for me. He's been speaking English in Vitality for 2 and half years, if he isn't comfortable with it now then he never will be. Besides, look at what m0NESY is doing in a team speaking a language that isn't his native tongue. He's absolutely destroying. ZywOo just doesn't have the killer instinct for leadership and the s1mple-esque ability to FORCE the game to bend to his will

[@D0rlisok]

yet vitality won way more trophies this last year than g2

[@gargayt534]

@@D0rlisok i dont understand your point and the comparaison with g2. Yes, vitality won a lot. But it has nothing to do with the assomption that zywoo is not yet able to wake up his team without fragging out. And its fine if the team has someone to do it, but only apex can and its not enough :(

[@D0rlisok]

​@@gargayt534 sorry for wasting your time - I meant to answer to @freddiepullman5132.

[@AstroSully]

He leads through his action. He is Strider not the King of Gondor.

[@Hornnnnnn]

I loved maniac during the matches at EPL, his input during the game was great

[@0Adnin]

Aye... finally Xyp9x gets credit.

[@ripclaws245]

Where time

[@0Adnin]

@@ripclaws245 like in the very beginning itself 1st min or 2.

[@FreagaZ]

Siuhy is Aleksib but without the unfortunate career moves. Imagine NAVI under blade + aleksib system having the rifle core that MOUZ has now.

[@0Adnin]

No

[@TopOnTops]

Imagine thinking Aleksib would do better than siuhy with his pieces L

[@xae7854]

No, siuhy has undoubtedly done more at the same age. He has way better consistency event to event, and has always elevated his players. The same cannot be said for Aleksib, who honestly seems a lot more rigid in his approach and I haven’t seen him elevate players to the same level as siuhy. Aleksib has a lot of haters but also some of the biggest diehard fans ever. It’s not all bad luck, it just doesn’t work like that.

[@jonnielad6402]

@@xae7854 the fact you said siuhy has “undoubtedly” done more is crazy. He is a major winner of the first ever cs2 major…. Siuhy got second place in the last major. For right now Siuhy needs a tier 1 tournament not just pro leagues

[@TopOnTops]

@@jonnielad6402 he is talking about at siuhys age Aleksib just had his ence time

[@elizabethmurigi1131]

Finally, xertioN is put on the spotlight. MOUZ lives and dies by him. It's over for other teams when he gets over the choking hurdle because he has the greatest drop off when they lose on stage. I have him as a top three entry right now and he's a beast on CT side as well The Astralis segment is bang on. Before Pro League they had the best CT side but then the T side looked even more fantastic in pro league. Staehr is cracking open bombsites and Jabbi's lurking is just insane. I can't count the number of times he walked into empty bombites in their matchups vs Liquid. Dev1ce is unlocking these players in ways we could never imagine and now I understand why he always said that Staehr has so much potential or Jabbi is the best lurker in Denmark even before the stabbi move. He had Jabbi and Staehr in his dream team last year.

[@TopOnTops]

Donk already has a factor Zywoo doesnt

[@MoonIronTR]

He has no factor He is just running and killing people lmao

[@user-fc8xw4fi5v]

Factor of 2

[@vilgotthorsson9057]

Goat vs goat

[@skryyper6706]

Yes being relevant for 1 toornaments vs 6 years

[@Ruminatee]

Cultural impact 😂

[@jianchen7450]

Love it when thorin is on beatbox mode 34:13

[@sh1nenkai258]

its s1mple s1mple has that dog in him, that superstar ego, that im the main character type energy zywoo i dont feel anything from him, i just feel a guy who is happy to be here and win or lose it doesnt matter, no dog in him

[@Alex_zer0_Shoveller]

zywoo did have that sad/tilted dog in him on that last bo3 vs mouz xD

[@sh1nenkai258]

@@Alex_zer0_Shoveller fair enough lol, man was much more invovled in the actoin at times entrying during faze and astralis series just to bait his teamates and play more for the trade in the final, quite the switch up of mentality/dog in him

[@AstroSully]

that's just a lazy assement imo. s1mple is still the GOAT but not because he has that "dog" in him. That ego caused s1mple to end his career earlier than it should have.

[@AstroSully]

@@sh1nenkai258 he got the most entries in Mouz series for Vita btw. They just got destroyed. Your logic is if ZywOo played more aggro they would have won is stupid. Mouz outplayed and destroyed them plain and simple.

[@owenkapler7630]

I really liked that point that maniac made

[@kivori3438]

I read from some comments something in the line of mouz faze vita being rock paper scissors, vita lose to mouz, mouz lose to faze, faze lose to vita. Kinda fun comparison ngl

[@saratchandrab4384]

Suihy with this line up can make another deep major run.......should be on the top list to replace karrigan....in the near future ~ in the bext year/once karrigan retires.

[@j_kArn]

Agreed, karrigan is 34 years old. FaZe being a top 10 team for over 2 years and #1 for the past 45 weeks… Gla1ve who? Long live the GOAT IGL but it can only go on for so long and siuhy would be a perfect replacement.

[@peepopoo4387]

I hate seeing this post over and over. This is like Prime Glaive starting to look good with Astralis and people talking about how he should go to other teams. Why would Siuhy leave Mouz when he came up with this team? People forget Siuhy played on Mouz Nxt with Torzsi and Xertion. These are his boys. Didn't Ropz take a paycut to go to Faze, too? Mouz isn't some scrub org.

[@Brak3d0n]

Zywoo is like KD in basketball. As Sir Charles Barkley said about KD not being a bus driver but a bus rider, zywoo is the same. S1mple is a bus driver. Surprised you didn't make that analogy Thorin haha.

[@MoonIronTR]

Worst analogy ever

[@AstroSully]

ZywOo not being a bus driver yet has been MVP for every Vitality tournament win and 7 MVP's whilst losing the finals. This is Cleveland Lebron if anything lmao. Only reason their organization is relevant.

[@trennan8291]

I like the play on words in the title.

[@evanroy4143]

lol my therapist mentioned learned helplessness when I was talking about someone else. Nj maniac but not actual maniac :)

[@Horatiusxa]

Pretty sure on an old episode of snake and banter, Aleksib shouted out jimpphat as the next big thing

[@matthewfoy1158]

I wanna ask what old team would you want to see in the scene now for me would be liquid

[@chef-b3337]

F*** XTQQZ. Terrible coach. He chose jackz over amanek and ruined g2. Now, he's failing to develop Apex as an IGL the way Zonic did on their run to the major. Vitality has definitely regressed.

[@miguel151420]

100%. You can tell the coaching difference is huge

[@adr0it]

1:13:51 wtf is this look from maniac LMAO

[@Vogurt]

“I am esports” could change to “I am banger cs podcasts”

[@ElementalDj]

it's pretty interesting how G2 has completely slipped out of any conversation about top teams that contend for trophies :DDDD

[@initiumnovum298]

When any other team had time to scoope Jimpphat? MOUZ took him to their academy when he was 15 y/o and promoted him at the age of 16 to the main squad. Maybe ENCE could be critisised that they didn't take him to their academy but no one else had time to do this. Now - after he proved himself at T1 lvl - teams like G2 and Vitality will shop for him.

[@mBhanuka]

Mouse had to face Faze in 2 finals. Faze is Mouz kryptonite. If it was Faze in this final they could have lost this too. As long as Mouz dont face Faze they will win everything

[@joseblua6566]

Exactly, I think Mouz could beat ANY team potentially, except for Faze, they can’t beat them if their fucking lives depended on it…. It’s crazy, what they need to win is for someone else to get Faze out, then it’s very likely they will win (kinda reminds me of liquid against Astralis in 2018-2019)

[@stayhome4626]

Maniac on point

[@jyanasensei]

Why oh why does no one ever place blame on xtqzzz?

[@evanroy4143]

Magisk is my favorite player ngl other than the two goats of modern era. I don’t dislike the Zywoo take but I just do not like the term egotistical because it is not egotistical for a player like Zywoo

[@kamilianos]

Zywoo seems polite and kind , but his teammates maybe a bit toxic and bullish , and from different cultures. The WOO needs to be transferred. I missed out the S1mple era completely. It's interesting to hear so many high praises about him from the analysts contrasted with community saying he is washed and gone (s0mple). It's a shame , but I don't think he is coming back as a player. The Mouz Vitality match was boring to watch but amazing display of power from Mouz. Good on the young boys. They are friendly , kind and polite. They should have finished second in the Danish major.

[@Alex_zer0_Shoveller]

zywoo having a good day was s1mple every single match every single round, people saying he is washed was the same people talking shit about him when he had almost every mvp for every tourny he entered

[@kivori3438]

@@Alex_zer0_Shoveller i mean s1mple was good af but he had his off moments too, he was unlucky sometimes in majors but also didnt win for tilting some others, you aint being objective with this my friend

[@AstroSully]

@@Alex_zer0_Shoveller just not true at all. Embellishment.

[@kierenmoreno2401]

You can say whatever you like but Zywoo will end his career being the Goat. remind me when he's done with CS

[@stayhome4626]

Mezii is the biggest weakness of Vitality. Flamez for Dupreeh was an upgrade. Although Flamez lacks Dupreeh's experience and mental fortitude, he is a sharper and more explosive young player. On the other hand, Mezii was a significant downgrade. Magisk is more experienced, with greater tactical and fragging output, despite being almost the same age. I like Mezii; he performed quite well with Fnatic, but he isn't on the level of Jimphat, Naf, or other tier 1 anchors . Apex still deserves to play Shanghai with Vitality .

[@0Adnin]

Here is my 2 cents on BlameF. BlameF made his entire team worse. I won't say he baited his entire team. But the way he played it made his entire team worse and 1st person who became the fodder for him was the guy you interviewed on Reflection recently...Xyp9x. I was actually waiting for you to ask him about role clashes with BlameF. but the topic was briefly touched as drop in stat to which he did say he could have done better if there wasn't role issue and he could/should have gone to different team instead of sticking with astralis.(paraphrasing). Another reason why Pros and Big org gave up on him. They saw what happened in Kato and RMR especially after Astralis performance in Chengdu and EPL. Probably they thought bringing him in would also mean some of their stars will get wasted like Stavn and Jabbi did. Then there was another reflection with Freiberg where he shared his thought on BlameF. Every thing just worked against him. I understand just like Aleksi ... K0nfig and BlameF are 2 other players you look after. But he really has a lot of soul searching to do. Is going to be a player who will in be in HLTV 20 10 years in a row player with no trophies or he wants to win those trophies ! cause something was inherently wrong with how he played in Astralis and like Xyp9x said your future contract reflects your past performance and BlameF's was hollow stats.

[@kaliver517]

"He has poor English and has trouble expressing himself" describes most native English speaking gamers, to be fair. What a wack albatross to have tied around your neck.

[@hiimroo3120]

Zywoo just doesn’t have big game factor. Farming this mvp on studio shows his lan weakness once again

[@MoonIronTR]

He won 5 lan events with 5 mvps all on stage

[@davids8127]

He was a boogeyman for Navy basically denying them from an era where they should've won everything after they won the Major with b1t. You forgot he aced Navi with p250 on Mirage and was a match for prime s1mple.

[@sfzndo]

pretty sure the only event Navi didn't win from Stockholm to the end of 2021 was the one they didn't attend (IEM Winter) ​@@davids8127

[@skryyper6706]

S1mple has as much MVP vs no crowd than zywoo

[@sriramsrinivasan1815]

@@davids8127 you’ve got your timelines wrong. He’s beaten Navi in only only 1 final, that too online. And navi had flamie in that lineup, while vitality had the 6 man thing with Nivera. And in that final, Zywoo popped off on mirage, while simple was carrying navi for the whole series.

[@tech4172]

The thing about blamef not being pi ked up by a good team is due to the word u said 100 times TEAM blamef is not a TEAM player that's why

[@goneski]

s1mple is the best player of all time dev1ce is the best awper

[@skitzthegamer]

Mouz just beat Spirit again 3-0 in a Bo5 for the grand final of BetBoom Dacha. Yes, a bullshit tournament but Mouz has Spirits number.

[@tech4172]

Astralis is in a honeymoon zone once the pressure starts half that teams mental is shit especially their igl device his mental is non existence and 100% it's going to show

[@djshadyside6585]

😂 silver ahh take

[@ruslanyakupov3186]

"You can put ZywOo in FaZe and he never lose a tournament." WOW no shit Maniac, i can say exactly the same about m0nesy. Your boy isn't the only star who has to carry his team everytime when they play against a strong team

[@TopOnTops]

Monesy 2 months Carrying stop comparing The last epl Niko carried him hard

[@cm386464]

​@@TopOnTops you are wrong

[@davids8127]

Haha exactly, they bringing up the best international team of all time for comparison lol

[@TiTaN18]

I mean ,i don't see a team where only one person has to be MVP entire career for that team to win any tournament

[@KeefeL]

2 months is a massive understatement, but the latter part is correct ​@@TopOnTops

[@MigOnez]

1st

[@rare8567]

vita need to ditch their bum coach.