The Shmup Character Issue | Caladrius Blaze (and More!)

The Shmup Character Issue | Caladrius Blaze (and More!). HOT GIRLS. SEXY BABES. BUFF BROS. COOL DUDES. Shmups (shoot em' ups) are filled with iconic and interesting characters ... sort of. Judging by the box art of many games, including the game that inspired today's video, Caladrius Blaze, shmups are jammed with compelling characters and designs. HOWEVER, there is one really big problem with character representation within the genre (and I don't mean in the Eurogamer anti-Dead or Alive sense), which is that the characters ... aren't actually in the games in a meaningful way. Sure the game will reference the characters on the attract mode or maybe in th end credits, but for the most part think how many games you have bought that had cool characters on front and then generic ships in the actual gameplay. That's just a part of the problem however. Even if the games do try to add more character presence like Caladrius Blaze for example, that presence usually boils down to simple PNG images that pop up as you play or at best animated talking profile pictures (I'm thinking of you Star Fox). Some games like Deathsmiles, Esp. Ra. De., and Touhou do take it a step further by actually including the character sprites within the gameplay, but even in these cases it still feels under developed because of how limited the view and animation of the sprites are and how generally zoomed out the player perspective is. You'll get to know the back of the character's head really well, but that's about it.
There are more topics and ideas on the subject that I discuss in the video, but I' don't want to spoil the whole thing in the description ha. If you are interested in Caladrius Blaze, you can pick it up on Nintendo Switch, Steam (PC), Xbox 360, PS4/PS5, and even PS3.
Awesome thumbnail created by ‪@boghogSTG‬
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#shmup, #shootemups, #touhou

[@Paul_Allens_Profile]

Anti-Eurogamer pro Dead or Alive.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Man you should read their doa review sometime, they are just ranting about the poor game ha

[@Paul_Allens_Profile]

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, DoA is everybody's favourite punching bag.

[@n2oshotandironman]

The only way to be

[@ShmupJunkie]

The challenge with characters is that they need to be unique or interesting enough to carry or at least enhance the game, like any good story. Some good shmup examples I can think of are Air Zonk on PC Engine and the entire Cotton series, where there's enough personality or aspects of the character design integrated into the gameplay that they remain memorable. Another good tactic is to insure that multiple characters completely change the way a game is played. So in games like Gunbird 2, despite the characters being small on screen, they all change how you play the game in meaningful ways, thus creating a connection between your favorites and the characters as represented in the intro, cut scenes etc. This may be a topic for another video, but I always felt a potential strength of the shmup genre is the ability to create a world and story through visuals and music without the need for exposition, dialogue or cut scenes. Rtype Delta did this incredibly well and had one of the most effecting end stages I can remember. Eschatos is awesome for how it creates a continuous journey from initial invasion of the planet to your eventual assault on their moon base. No characters or exposition, yet I'm all in!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

absolutely junkie, implicit story telling. Extremely important and yes that would make a fantastic topic vid ha. Because if you try to connect to characters in cutscenes and dialogue, now you are cutting into the pace of the gameplay, which is more important.

[@jw6588]

Always glad to see commentary from ShmupJunkie.

[@FFTHundoCommunity]

I like Caladrius Blaze for the same reason I like Castle of Shikigami: there’s great character/ship selection. I’m so tired of the generic 3 ship formula that you see in most shmups, especially from Cave, so having this great variety makes these games stand out from the crowd.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I would argue though that Blaze actually doesn't get around this trend very much, because yes it has the girl characters which are cool, but they are basically just purely images disconnected from the gameplay. Whereas Shiki does do a better job of putting the characters in the gameplay and giving them animations and stuff.

[@kitestar]

ILL GIVE YOU TWO CHOICES: A.) CAUGHT THEN BEATEN OR B.) BEATEN THEN CAUGHT -Castle Shikigami 2’s unintentionally gold English dub on ps2 😂

[@locoxpandaa]

See, the reason why I like Sin & Punishment is because the characters shown on the box art is what you see throughout the game and the stages also connect to the story as well, as well as the evolution of the protagonist, even if the writing wasn't the best, I truly felt immersed in an almost anime scifi-like world

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes and what's great is that it's all integrated together. I think the key for something like sin and punishment is that you do actually play as the character and get to see the character from multiple angles and animations.

[@AlmalekeLoL]

Maybe an unpopular opinion to shmup vets but I wouldn't mind having one with a story mode along with the arcade mode. Even just having some basic stuff like being able to talk to characters inbetween levels or something would be neat in fleshing out the world. Would keep the arcade experience pure but also have some extra stuff to get a bit more invested.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I think that's a fun idea, but even story modes and that type of thing don't solve this issue I don't think. Because cut scenes and cinematic are still external to gameplay, just like the character PNGs that pop up in blaze. This is why Melee is such a good example because it brings you star fox and marth and captain falcon, in actual gameplay. So I think one interesting idea would be for shmups to also perhaps add in special character modes or arranges where you get to play as the characters, and then could keep the ship stuff as well. Or try to integrate it all into one mode, there are a ton of options. It's not so much that I think this idea HAS to happen, but more like it's an obviously extremely undeveloped part of the genre.

[@BknMoonStudios]

I agree with you. I would like to see a SHMUP that has a dedicated Story Mode, as well as a split Arcade Mode. That way, people who want characters and story can enjoy the campaign, while people who only want gameplay can do a more straightforward arcade run.

[@windup13ird60]

​@TheElectricUnderground In this case what would you be doing while playing as the characters? Are you completely changing the genre or are you going from Ship Protag to flying character protag? Which you say is not enough. Re story modes, you see a few around and they are mostly maligned. Raiden V is the worst example, since there's constant talking and not even your character. Sol Cresta's Dynamic mode is a better example, and it even fleshes out the three pilots and gives plot beats, but no one wants to watch or read anything while shmupping.

[@Chris-Courage]

PCE CD cutscenes in between stages.

[@rkraccoons]

Every shmup would benefit from a strip damage mechanic

[@SylvesterInk]

I found that Radiant Silvergun did a pretty good job of developing a connection to the characters in the game through the use of the various cutscenes and in-game character dialog. While I realize the point you're trying to make here is that viewing the characters as an interactive part of the gameplay is an important part of developing that connection, I think that it can work even in a more minimalist situation. Look at Duke Nukem 3D, a game where we only saw the titular character on the box-art and in cutscenes. Yet his in-game voice quips were iconic enough to get his personality across. The same goes for RSG. For a game that is so short (in comparison to a typical story-driven game), there's a surprising amount of characterization that we get from the interactions between the four crewmates, from Gai's recklessness as he tries to prove himself worthy, to Reana poking fun at the others, to the overall general hopelessness of the crew as the game goes on. (This assumes you're playing in Saturn mode, rather than Arcade mode, since the latter cuts almost all of that out. But Saturn mode is the way to play the game anyway.) Of course, none of these characters is shown on the box art, so they won't be a part of that initial draw to pull gamers in, but the art of the Silvergun is already sexy as heck, so why bother?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Silvergun is a great example because of the different modes of the game, where it has arcade mode and story mode (which is a smart choice). So i never play story mode, and only exclusively play arcade. So for me, I have absolutely no idea about the characters or story besides what is presented within the gameplay itself. I think silvergun is fantastic about its presentation overall, especially it's background work. But I think the genre is going to hit this natural limitation of if you throw in cutscenes, then you are damaging the pace of the game. So while I think cutscenes are a cool optional feature for a story mode, I still think there is a lot of extra room for trying to get the characters into the arcade gameplay more, without having to use cutscenes and that sort of thing. Duke Nuke'm is more along the lines of what I'm talking about because, even though you only see his hand, I believe his voice lines are context sensitive to gameplay right. As in, when you do something the character will say something on what you did. That's better gameplay integration than cut scenes I think.

[@Squalid]

This is hands down the best cover you could put on this issue, thank you so much for making me laugh so hard 2:07

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I know right, the banjo man is a legend.

[@dukeofhmph6348]

I suppose Ai Cho Aniki is still cutting edge in this regard. Big sprites and very expressive character animations thanks to its fighting game influence.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ironically it is, after all why is it that we all remember that crazy game, it's not the gameplay that's for sure ha. It's for how expressive and wild it's characters are, in the gameplay itself.

[@magicjohnson3121]

You got to have a death scream too. Brings out the character.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh yeah I love those! my fav is probably reco's

[@HiterLit]

I found your channel totally on a whim by searching for rail shooter vs shmup discussion. I like your laid back and genuine approach to the subject matter; I've always found shmups to be impenetrable and very all-or-nothing mechanically with very little to keep me invested in the game. Starfox 64 is one of my favorite games of all time because it combines first-time spectacle with replayability and cool characters. There's also something to be said for more nuanced difficulty options that allow you to make mistakes but still recover in time to find a secret level or kill a certain number of enemies, which I think a lot of shmups would be improved by adopting, but that's a different topic. You've earned a subscriber. Keep it up.

[@cybershellrev7083]

I was in the midst of developing an Ikaruga-inspired shmup RPG hybrid that would allow the player to land their ship and interact in 3rd person for upgrades and NPC interaction as they progressed but my primary problem was the confidence in how well it'd do in the market for the amount of time put into production. I'd really like to move forward with this shmup hybrid some day when finance isn't a knife at my neck though. Nice talk, I love to hear what you have to say about design!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh yeah devving a shmup is gonna be a big leap out on the edge in terms of money and sales, that's for sure. I can def understand that.

[@TheRestartPoint]

We need a true character representation of Mark's face flying around spitting out shmup truths like bullets

[@TheElectricUnderground]

the TLB ha, that would be really fun. My final pattern is a high speed wave of bullets but then your controls suddenly get 10 frames of input lag lol.

[@NIMPAK1]

Probably the only non-3D shmup character that has ever stood out to me was probably the TwinBee ship. Mainly because of its more unique design and because the big cartoony bubbly proportions stands out more in a smaller sprite compared to a realistic human. I also think game mechanics can also help bring a character to life, like imagine if Sonic ran at the same speed as Mario and had the same mechanics. You'd just feel like you're playing as Mario but with a different sprite as opposed to a unique character.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh twinbee is such a great example of this! yes sega def went the extra mile with that character/ship where when he has all these cute animations and stuff. My fav is when you get close to the ground and his little legs pop out and he runs, that's fantastic stuff.

[@relo999]

For me a game that does the same is the Parodius series, and that also shows how characterization works well. In Gradius the ship feels like a generic space ship, that same space ship feels far more like a character in Parodius because it stands out yet fits in the general craziness of the game. Pocky and Rocky also does characterization amazingly.

[@bulb9970]

Touhou really is a perfect example of this. The series wouldn't be as popular as it is today if it didn't have the iconic characters and lore. Every character has unique personalities, designs, backgrounds, special abilities and this stands out from just a generic ship. Kind of a double edged sword too since Touhou's gameplay is heavily overshadowed by those elements in a general audience's perspective, and they are great games on their own.

[@markguyton2868]

I think characterization in shmups is in a stagnant phase is because a lot of game dev's focus on "function over form", as in their goal is to give the player a good challenge over pretty animations. Moon Dancer and the other games from that dev are a good example. I honestly hate Natsuki Chronicles due to the fact that all the talking is incredibly distracting from the gameplay and I have to choose between story investment and not dying to some stray bullet. I know there are game's that can do this well (2hu as you explained), but it does come down to how much animation can the player actually see in a rainstorm of bullets without making them lose focus? The Dreamer series does a pretty good job of basic animations on the side of the screen though, might as well use all that empty space for something.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I do think shmup devs are sort of stuck creatively with some of this stuff. I think the reason for it is because treasure stopped making shmups and stopped pushing these concepts because of it. I think if treasure stuck around, we would have seen them play more with characters and cameras, they def were all about that in sin and punishment 2 at least.

[@corkman111]

Good points Mark! I also like the idea of a strong antagonistic character in shmups. CATS from Zero Wing is kind of one.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Me too! or like the general in dodonpachi, that guy is really iconic ha. Honestly he should be integrated into the gameplay a bit more, like after you kill big bee a sprite of him appears before hibachi or something.

[@WooMaster777]

Man, I love your video essays! I love Cannon Spike more than I should BECAUSE there was heavier focus on characters. The game itself was kinda lackluster, but I remember Arthur, Cammy, Nash/Charlie, and the rest. Yeah, wow... character representation goes a long way. 🤯🥰

[@themarkandrus]

With shmups I feel like character personality can really be conveyed through move-sets. So, like, in fighting games even outside of the story or sprites you can pick up on Ryu, Akuma, Sakura, Dan, or Sean's specific personality types despite them all being shotos. It's harder in shmups, but I think games like Shikigami or Batrider do a great job conveying personality through playstyle

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes absolutely, batrider does a fantastic job at building the characters more into the gameplay. You remember batrider characters, and mahou characters, very distinctly because of how much personality and animation they have, compared to the rest of the genre.

[@SuperLarrythompson]

I actually collect shmups where you fly a character instead of a ship. I've always felt it ads a sense of urgency because it's not an inorganic ship. It's a person or creature.

[@gamecentergarou6725]

A friend and coworker and I had this exact conversation half a year ago. The leniency of our work is such that we're allowed to put on whatever insane video game soundtracks just blairing on some Bluetooth speaker off of whatever KZbin hosts. This friend isn't so much a casual gamer, but God Hand is as deep as he's willing to go as far as "hardcore otaku gremlin" games go. If I can transcribe said conversation: ☢️:Question, (me): So, this poster art looks amazing. Tiddy, muscle, and steel displayed proudly like a Frank Frazetta painting. 🔴: Right. So your question is ☢️: My question is, WHY THE **** IS THIS A SHMUP? 🔴: You have something against shmups? ☢️: Why try and trojan horse me into playing 1942 again and again with this ****? 🔴: **** you. All fighting games play the same by that logic. ☢️: But at least fighting games don't lie to me about t!tties, now do they? At least in a fighting game I can play as that jacked as **** dude in the box art. I have to clear the stage just to see a character render? wtf is that ****?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That's awesome ha. Yep, I love shmups but the lack of the characters in the game itself does feel a bit clickbaity at times, no doubt about it. I'm not saying that all shmups need to be full on over the shoulder esp.ra.de style, but rather if devs looked at this idea as being worth exploring, I think we could see lots of cool ways characters can be worked into the gameplay itself.

[@ArcadeHell]

Great topic Mark! Shmups still have some room to grow in this aspect. As a baseline, I think shmups could learn a lot by integrating the kind of storytelling we see in the Metroid games. It's mostly told through the environments and music, and occasionally through some text blips. You see this kind of thing in the cute character side-art of games like Cosmo Dreamer and Graze Counter GM. It'd be nice if they took it a little further without making talking head scenes like Touhou. But let's be real, lots of people love the approach Touhou takes, and it deserves a place in the scene too! Other than that, I'd love to see some of the camera work of Escatos used in character based shmups! Instead of post stage score screens showing character art, I want to see the camera pan around the character, to see the character make some expression or say a one-liner. Those things add up with all the other story telling techniques in just the right way that I start to bridge the gaps with my imagination and begin to feel connected with the story, even though the story telling is subtle.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I think shmups are basically missing out on a baseline feature of most other genres when it comes to characters. Because in other genres devs naturally need to represent characters in the game in some fashion, but because of the whole zoomed out ship view thing that shmups do, this is a unique challenge. But I think once shmups start to work with the camera once again, and use it to actually impact the gameplay, that's going to be the next big step in the genre's game design I think. Right now the static camera stuff has basically been perfected, no one anytime soon is gonna surpass CAVE in that style of design ha. So i think it's time to start exploring more with the camera.

[@ArcadeHell]

@@TheElectricUnderground I really like this idea but I think it's kind of controversial, too. Cave started adding more characters to their games, but have been ridiculed for it to some degree. Too "waifu", too "anime". Some people just want bad ass sci-fi ships. Personally, I like it all. I want ships, and mechas, and explosions, and babes! Give us some bad ass male characters, too, like Fox! I bet a big reason R-Type Final 2 got so much attention was the high fidelity 3D ships (though I wasn't part of the scene when this game was coming out). But that's one thing in the gameplay vids that I like! Besides that, the game sounds tepid.

[@Squalid]

This is amazing! You discovered mobile game ads formula! 4:37 🤣

[@TheElectricUnderground]

ha i know right, dirty stuff.

[@cptwigglefuffle]

Love that you mentioned Sin & Punishment and Deathsmiles But how did you completely forget Cotton lol. Her games have cutscrenes, highly expressive cutscnees and unique characters

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah absolutely, cotton stands out really well in this regard. I forget about cotton mostly because of the insanely bad city connection ports ha. Cotton Reboot is really great though.

[@GurdevSeepersaud]

I want to shout-out Castle Shikigami 2, which makes me feel a bit more connected to my character. First, you can see every character you're playing as, and they all control in WILDLY different ways, which you can argue is influenced by their personalities. But I want to give credit to its story which, while AWFUL, gives you a little insight into each character as a REWARD for each level cleared. The pre-fight banter is also fun and voice acting on death/bomb activation plays a big part in communicating info about the player-character. Hyuga is my favorite so far

[@BknMoonStudios]

I really liked your suggestions (doing camera close-ups in gameplay, having sections where characters fight outside of the ship, cutscenes with dialogue like in Treasure games, etc.) In a much broader sense, I find there are three things developers can do to make not just characters, but also the setting and plot, more interesting: *1) Putting **_separate_** modes in the game where the focus is more in the narrative.* (e.g., Visual Novel mode, RTS mode, Beat 'em Up mode, etc.) I specifically mention _separate_ because stopping the action in Arcade Mode to put a 10 minute VN cutscene would be asinine. *2) Make spin-offs and supplementary material that focus more on the characters and the world.* Should go without saying that Touhou is the absolute king at this, and its a large part of why the franchise succeeded. Fighting Games, Manga, Music Albums... heck, it even has an entire convention dedicated exclusively to Touhou fan media. I think King of Fighters also did this well during the 90's. Tons of manga, OVAs, Drama CDs, Radio Shows, etc. *3) Crossovers with other franchises (and other genres).* Smash Bros is the biggest example of this, but it applies to many more franchises. Touhou has frequent crossovers with Rhythm Games, the Project X Zone RPGs are like a Smash Bros for Namco, Capcom, Sega and Nintendo franchises, and the Super Robot Wars games are like the Smash Bros of Mecha anime and games. The number one drawback/limitation of these approaches are increased time and cost, but I believe that the stronger market appeal can offset the costs. What would you say, Mark?

[@tournaline3448]

Most of today’s shmup development teams don’t have any dedicated character designers. It’s rare that a modern shmup keeps me coming back cos the graphics are so lame and generic. I understand the development teams are small, but just because modern software has made design a lot easier it doesn’t mean that dedicated designers aren’t needed. The best way for shmups to attract new blood is with killer visuals - it’s what got me interested as a kid.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yep and there is something to be said about having characters. Touhou for example doesn't have compelling visuals, in a traditional sense at least, but it does do a fairly good job at putting the characters in the game and then also has all these supplemental games, like the fighting games, that help show the cast from a new perspective in gameplay.

[@paxhumana2015]

@@TheElectricUnderground , there is only so much that philosophies like those will be able to go to before even that becomes stale. How about you focus on a solid game and not on bells and whistles and let that be the foundation for a great game instead?

[@tournaline3448]

@@paxhumana2015 It’s possible to incorporate interesting characters AND have solid game fundamentals. With anything that works, others will copy it and it will eventually become a bit stale, but that’s simply the point where you have to innovate again. The well of creativity is endless.

[@JeffStanifer]

You earned an audible laugh with the phalanx cut. 🤣 fantastic

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes ha!!!!! such a meme of a game cover

[@pendranomechannel6786]

I thought you would mention Pocky and Rocky, Shock Troopers or The Red Star for sure. I think those games pretty much solved this issue you’re talking about in this video. Maybe some might not consider them shmups. But in my mind they most certainly are.

[@kaishmuper]

We need more booba shmups. And we also need more Natsuki. Natsuki is justice.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

ha yeah but we also need to figure a way to get the ladies into the actual gameplay, so you can see them in action (like mai in KOF for example).

[@rishraff6528]

I know I am a bit late to the party (new to finding the channel, but really like it so far!), but fully agree. Shmups could certainly stand to do better with character integration. One of my favorite shmups is Triggerheart Exelica specifically for this reason! Its not an amazing shmup by itself, but they do a good job framing the characters and actually building a story around the characters (more than most shmups anyway). This is especially true in the Enhanced version for PS2, where the entire story mode game play is framed within a visual novel! Speaking of which, Triggerheart Exelica is being ported to the Nintendo Switch and Steam at the end of April and was curious if you will review it?

[@beetlehorn]

I feel Deathsmiles does do enough to combat this issue despite what you said. The different summons the characters can use adds a lot to what sort of person they are, and if you got the game physical the instruction book has a lot of fun stuff to inform you further. Definitely the most invested I am in a shmups characters

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh yeah deathsmiles does a much better job (and unsurprisingly is the biggest seller of cave, without competition), but even it I think could go a bit further by having more animations and some zooms and shifts in perspective perhaps.

[@beetlehorn]

@@TheElectricUnderground now I'm imagining a Sin and Punishment style Deathsmiles and yes, that does sound actually awesome.

[@slimynaut]

I think shmups can really excel at environmental storytelling rather than character driven storytelling. You can tell your story with the stages, powerups, enemies, music, even with the way enemies die! I never really liked in the touhou games how they stop the game to have dialogues.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah absolutely, dialogue sequences are not the answer ha

[@VillainViran]

Oh man, I personally want both. The problem with older touhou games is in the programming. We can't not have nonsense english translations in-game because if we surpass character limit the game crashes or something. This whole time I thought 6-8 were kinda dumb until I realized there was a more accurate script online lol. Anyway I look forward to dialogue in shmups. It's a moment of respite and feels like a reward. I also don't inherently care for things like score though so I need a narrative or aesthetic pull. I do believe it ought be a union and not one or the other. You should show more than you tell but doing both well would be great

[@tubbiele2]

against sexualization in Shmups! Nice brainstorm, Mark. I liked the character stuff in Batsugun and Gigawing.

[@jw6588]

I won't lie, this game (Caladrius Blaze) got me into shmups because of the strip-damage mechanic because I'm a pervert. But compare that to Baldur's Gate 3... and bear bestiality scene. Anyway, I realize that's totally off-topic from the actually rather interesting topic of character integration in shmups, but I know that mainstream Caladrius is basically considered an 'incel game', and that's the first thing that came to mind.

[@Yousef77077]

Hey there, I subbed to you recently, on patreon as well. You have a very humble vibe and your delivery is concise and you articulate yourself very professionally. I’m very glad to find a game channel targeted towards Shmups, even if one of my two primary shmup interests (Metal Slug) doesn’t fit quite so nicely into the genre as your touhous or ikarugas or what have you. I’m excited for your upcoming project about VF, as that’s a huge childhood property of mine. Have a good day. Greetings from Kuwait.

[@tomjones4921]

Thank you for the clarification. I was literally holding my keyboard over my head...you saved me 20 dollars.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

and I saved you a trip to the hospital lol! close call

[@Isaiahmag]

I think a game like Acceleration of SUGURI did pretty well and would be interested in a shmup having a versus mode like that.

[@vidyergaemenjoyer447]

Great video! I'm glad you mentioned isometric view being under-utilized, because one of my favorite shmups (aesthetically) is Viewpoint, which I think I've never met another fan of. Has a great soundtrack and just looks really cool! I also actually really enjoyed Caladrius Blaze if for nothing else that it kinda felt like an easier Raiden IV with very varied ship selection.

[@truxardus4331]

When I was beating each game in the recent 8bit Aleste collection on Switch, I was kind of annoyed the guy from Power Strike 2 didn't get an animated portrait on screen like all the girls in the other games did. I also thought they could have improved the portraits by making them animate in reaction to what is happening on screen, kind of like Doomguy's face in the classic Doom games. Doom guy reacts to being hit, gets beat up as he approaches death, etc. As is, they cycle through set animations.

[@bobojr2126]

Maybe they could pull a doom and have a little pilot shot somewhere on the screen. Maybe on the side of the aspect ratio. Or maybe thats a little bit distracting...

[@TheElectricUnderground]

one fun little addition m2 did on the port of sorcerer striker is that they added an animated profile of the pilot in the gadgets section, so when you ship is doing stuff your pilot is reacting to it ha.

[@Manicman746]

the smut cover art is probably why a lot of people don't get into shmups especially before the internet

[@Senumunu]

Schmups have to free up design space for character expression The way you engage enemies should be more interactive but all the genre does is space control Why can't the character perform moves in order to dodge certain patterns ? Or use and repurpose the enemies attacks ? A lot could be done. Maybe it needs an ambitious kick starter. It worked for crpgs.

[@MisterGigliotti]

Great points about disconnection from characters. The one step you did not mention was the abilities and how each characters abilities represented their style. So this is a connecting point from game to characters. Also, this magic system largely addresses the screen space vertizontal issue. Ship movement too restricted in the play space, but magic abilities helps access areas not directly in front of ship.

[@realce666]

Sleazy Raiden deserves more attention.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha the game itself i think is ok, but has a lot of issues for me like the aspect ratio and the stupid attack meters, but I talk about the character part of the game because it really is a topic that I think applies to most shmups

[@SamuraiGenkai]

One thing I like about the shmups genre is how welcoming it can be for people like myself. Being mostly into third person action games, I dont care much for highscores and numbers and such, but alot of schmups actually have characters that are made for just enjoying the fast-paced and thrilling battles. Im thinking about characters like Yusuke from Esp.Rade. or the blue wish resurrection series. And im really grateful for that.

[@Yousef77077]

Oh wow you mentioned Natsuki chronicles I have that on my Xbox :D

[@VillainViran]

Oh man, I loved this game. I'm a sucker for character centric jrpgs. This drew me in with the different character routes and fan service.

[@VillainViran]

I think I played I binged it when I played it lol

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That's great ha! I'm not personally a big fan of the game design choices (wide aspect ratio and metered attacks), but I thought I'd discuss the character part of the game as it is clearly the game's stand out feature ha.

[@fazares]

ery interesting topic indeed..characters are quite serviceable in this genre, true that..on the flip side, i must play the second sin & punishment....i love that game...i wish the 1st game allowed saving as well

[@johnt7372]

I’d like to see you do a video on how publishers took the anime out of shooters for US releases a la space mega force and your perspective on this now. Or more king of fighters discussion

[@TheElectricUnderground]

there shall be more king of fighters discussion my friend. I have been playing kof 98 a lot ha.

[@bydoman98]

In regards to character exposition, one interesting thing that sticks out in a lot of STGs is that the bosses seem to end up having more detail than any of the playable characters. The strongest example I can think of this would be Darius, where every boss is a highly animated fish of some kind, all very memorable, whereas the Silver Hawk is just a largely static ship carrying a very loose resemblance to a bird. It ends up creating more of an incentive to develop a connection with the bad guys far more than the Silver Hawk pilots barely seen in the brief attract cutscenes. I think it could work very well for Darius because casuals passing by could be drawn to those odd resemblances to fish firing gargantuan beams; it's based on something familiar, and without the preemptive context of Amnelia this, Orga that, one can fill in their own comedic plot of "the sushi want revenge against us for all our dinner plates!" or something. I mean, how can you not love those goofy aquatic machines of destruction? In the majority of other cases, however, it is kind of a dilemma. These bosses, besides being visible from the front rather than the back like the player (at least in a top-down perspective), could have all kinds of different animations - moving parts, walking, driving, or motioning up for a big epic attack. As for the character the player controls, it may be as little as a ship that fires, tilts left and right, and not much more. Given the constraints of a two-dimensional angle, what would be more important to give exhaustive detail to: the player, or the bosses? It's a tough question that could only be answered on a case by case basis, I think.

[@callofguti]

Don't know much about shmups, but I'll give a like to anything with melty blood music in it 👍 Great video btw. When's the cave dream fighting game spinoff btw jsjsjs

[@TheElectricUnderground]

hell yes, i love this ost. I have a rule with fighting games, the more homebrew the visuals, the most hot the ost for some reason lol. Also a CAVE character fighting game would be such a good idea, honestly not even kidding, this could have probably helped a lot with people connecting more with the characters. Big missed opportunity I think. There is a reason why devs do these internal cast fighting games, it's because they work.

[@Beavernator]

Radiant Silvergun has great character narrative for a shooter ..

[@Beavernator]

I like games like Death Smiles, Cotton Fantasy, Gunbird, and even some of the old Aero Fighters games just because of the unique characters and ships... If I want Waifus, I'll load up a Senran Kagura or Neptunia game... Funny story: my daughter woukd buy me Senran Kagura games as joke Christmas gifts, and they unironically became some of my favorite guilty pleasure games just from the WEIRDNESS...

[@BknMoonStudios]

Huh, were the character designs in this game made by the same person who made the designs for the Devil Survivor games? They look almost the same. I like it, but it's obvious the artist likes some *BIG BAZONGAS,* because ALL of his/her female characters have them. lol

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Stay tuned because the topic isn't exactly that straightforward :-)

[@VillainViran]

Same artist behind some digimon as well

[@slimynaut]

Im a big Devil survivor fan. Bless his antigrav boobas.

[@xtlm]

Didn't have this issue with Sol Divide. Unironically a big fan of that game lol. It's so odd.

[@jack_crawford]

i like the Strikers 1945 approach. (if you know you know...)

[@Theyungcity23]

I literately have a still sealed copy of Sin & Punishment 2. I’ve forgotten about it since release..

[@perlichtman1562]

When it comes to characters shmups in terms of vertically scrolling ones some of the Psikyo games (Gunbird 1 and 2, Samurai Aces 1 and Dragon Blaze) did a great job with the way the characters differed significantly in their loadouts, sprites and their personality as shown in (appropriately succinct) pixel art cutscenes. M2s port of Sorcer Striker did a significantly better job than Caladrius Blaze in regards to integrating the personality of the character into the portrait on the side, in part because it was animated to react to in-game events (not just flash a different still and hold it) - something that the original Doom in the 90s also did well and one reason why it still remains on of the only FPS games that’s been able to hold my interest for any length of time.

[@perlichtman1562]

Now, in regards to what you said about Star Fox, I just didn’t have the same experience at all. To me, when I think of Star Fox characters I either think of box art or the comm chatter animations in the early games. Not only did having Fox step out of the ship or show up in Smash Bros. not help me connect with the character but hearing that you had to step out of the vehicle in a given Star Fox game made me less interested in it. For me, the connection to game usually isn’t based on wanting to pilot a character - it’s more like when I play a racing game. Gran Turismo 1 was, bar none, the best-selling game on the PS1 and there was no player character on the box art nor prominently featured in the game. This made perfect sense because the player was supposed to correct directly with the desirability of the cars, something which the broader culture has shown that many people have done in real life based on the persistence of car magazines for decades. Looking back at the original Need for Speed on the 3DO, the emphasis was once again on the cars but with the twist that your adversary was portrayed in a series of live-action video clips that were intentionally funny (as in I still think about them and laugh at them sometimes 28 years later). The player character was not defined - only the vehicles and the adversary. It was simple, funny and worked well, helping make the game one of the most played titles for my 3DO. Need for Speed Rivals did the exact opposite. Need for Speed Rivals failed so miserably, creating two characters (police and illegal racer) for the player to take on in the intro with some of the most poorly written dialogue in native English that I have ever heard, alienating me so much that I hate the game with a passion and have never been able to stick with it past the first hour. Here’s that horrible intro. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mXqZq4WoiLuGoJY When I play a shmup, much like a racing game, I am usually drawn to piloting a particular ship. There are some shmups that do a good job with story and buidling up characters but it is far more common for me to have to work to enjoy a shmup despite the characters, not drawn to them because of it. That’s part of the reason why I find it more difficult to enjoy Espgaluda 1 & 2, Esp Ra De Psi or Guwange compared to the vehicle based Cave shooters.

[@perlichtman1562]

As far as moving the camera, though, I think if we ignore the idea of depicting a person and instead focus on depicting the player ship (which is my preferred way of getting interest most of the time), then I think the horizontal 3D shmups have a big advantage over the vertical ones. I’m setting aside more rail-shooter like ones for now (like the latter two games in the Taito “Ray” trilogy). Focusing on that area, the PS1 provides a great place to look for ideas. Out of that group of games, the ones that have stood out to me the most are R-Type Delta, Thunder Force V and (most of all) Einhänder. All three of these games made interesting use of camera movement at several points to add variety or draw attention to transitions. Einhänder is in my opinion a master class on how to use the camera to enhance storytelling to overcome the technical limitations that the PS1 had. The way that the camera view moved to angles at various points to give something closer to a 3/4 view of your ship, swung around during a climactic boss fight near the end of the game or that enemies frequently came in from the background or lighting was used to differentiate different parts and create a mood - changing the way your ship looked at times… it was really memorable. The camera movement for the first boss fight intro (especially with track 22 off the OST “Shudder”) and in the battle itself really hyped me up every time. The camera work helped make a hero out of that ship and I had only limited exposure to (or memory) of the character inside it.

[@PalaceMidasMusic]

Although I didn't really like the game, Velocity 2X on the PS Vita had an interesting idea where you played sections in a 2D almost Metroid style view, and when you fought a boss you would go into their body and blow up their defences from the inside before returning to your craft to continue the fight. I don't think the implementation turned out that great, but it was an interesting idea. The problem was they tried to make the on foot 2D sections very fast and mix it with the shooting gameplay, but it all felt lesser than the sum of its parts.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah the game look kind of unpolished, but I think the concept is interesting. I think the key though is that rather than totally switching to a different mode of gameplay, you would instead continue shmupping, but using your character.

[@Chris-Courage]

Yeah, a simple intro of the character getting in and or out of the ship (like stun runner) would be ideal. I really dislike when characters scroll across the screen in the middle of any shooter. My immediate thought is "get the hell out of here" I'm trying to play and can't see.

[@TromboneGamer]

Have you heard of Yurukill? It's a visual novel/shmup hybrid... mostly visual novel.. but it's quite interesting. Caladrius has conversations/dialogue between each level and that helps connect with the characters a bit. Getting players invested into the world of the game would go a long way to engage the player. You just have to find the right balance between the cool factor of the visuals and gameplay and interesting/fun characters and narrative.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh yeah i have. So stuff like this is a bit different than what I'm talking about because visual novels are a bit more on the cutscene side of things, vs putting the characters into the core shmup gameplay.

[@TheSamuraiGoomba]

Castle Shikigami 2 bro. Pretty detailed character sprites and all the "ship" types are different. I'm a big fan of Caladrius Blaze, pretty much because it reminds me of Shikigami with its focus on lots of ship types.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yep shiki 2 is def on the right path.

[@robeastv]

I think more animated character cut-ins when activating specials, etc. would help tie in. An example is in Scarlett Nexus when you use your team member skills.

[@streetmagik3105]

The first time I played this, I just wasn't feeling it, for whatever reason? Now I have it for the Switch and PS4😂 I think it's pretty fun. Looking forward to the video.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah probably because the aspect ratio is funky and because all the attacks are on meter which feels funky

[@mrpissed]

OK, got it: Kidnap Sakurai to get the EXA dolls and Miyamoto the Samurai Dragon into Smash, instantly skyrocketing shmup popularity

[@TheElectricUnderground]

as funny as it is, that is true ha. Look at earthbound and fire emblem, smash helped those franchises so much back in the day. I could see reco from mushi making a really cool splash, imagine she flies around on the beetle and stuff.

[@rafresendenrafresenden.1644]

I Have Notice that normally the best shmup have great storytellying like ESPRaDe, RayForce, Zeroranger, Gunbird, Akai Katana Shin, Radiant Silvergun, Dodonpachi series, etc. all these games have great stories. I think new shmups could learn about this. Do something like a monster glossary for more lore bits.

[@stevehalle77]

I'd love to see a modern reimagining of or spiritual successor to The Guardian Legend, which has a lot of character development potential.

[@Retro_Jet_Elite]

A shmup, where if you get hit, you crash below and gotta finish the level as a Run N Gun. Different characters have different capabilities in air, and on ground. Could be rad.

[@gamecentergarou6725]

AFAIK this is exactly Legendary Wings by Capcom

[@Retro_Jet_Elite]

@@gamecentergarou6725 ya pretty close! LW transitioned from vertical to horizontal shooter. Im thinking more like dononpachi turns into metal slug if shot down.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh yeah and you can absolutely keep the core shmup gameplay and still have your character on foot, look at guwange, one of the best shmups around.

[@agi5522]

I think what helps is even just a little bit of story/visual novely things. Like Gley Lancer.

[@juubatuuba8354]

Stream starting elevator-lobby music too good!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Melty blood actress again ost def has that jazzy lounge vibe to it for sure ha.

[@ZanzibarLand]

Have you played Rendering Ranger R2 for the Snes? That game literally jumps between STG stages on your ship and contra-like run and gun stages with your main character without loosing too much on pacing

[@TheElectricUnderground]

i've heard about it actually! so this is def a cool idea, but I think a really strong solution would be to have sections where your character exits the ship and so forth, but it maintains it's shmup style gameplay. Also I think having sections that zoom in closer will really help give the game more of a dynamic feel. I think shmups are too comfortable with the static camera system.

[@windup13ird60]

Would you say this few is in opposition to your usual stance of shmup succeeding most when they are all killer, no filler? Or do you see a way in which both of these qualities can exist in the same game? Some games I think of: 1) Neon White. The levels are high octane amazeballs, but there are story segments between them that flesh out the characters, and its stage per stage gameplay makes this better for this game than interrupting Shmups with scenes, which are all about 1ccs and one sitting runs. I dont know, I just see this as having your cake and eating it too, especially because this kind of extra focus on aspects outside gameplay seem more the realm of Euroshmups.

[@uterfan]

Awesome vid, love the analysis and refreshing topics!

[@playoffl36ron8]

i don't know if you'll see this mark but do you recall making a comment about how ninja gaiden's combat translates over to fighting games. I've been watching all your character action videos in order to understand it also what other genres can you play to improve at fighting games if you don't want to sit in the training arena all day. I play beat em ups now to get more accustomed to using the fighting stick.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

beat em ups are definitely a good crossover genre. I think too when it comes to fighting games, there has been a real over-emphasis on combos and tedious stuff like that. But the more I think about it, the more I think it's interesting as a new player to not learn combos and just have to engage with the basic flow of the game first.

[@premiumr98]

glad you found a razor bro

[@premiumr98]

and cut is cool too

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha I shave about once a month. I don't like to fuss with my appearance very much so I just shave and have this sort of monthy cycle of growing hair.

[@markasaur]

I picked this up on ps4 without knowing it was lewdy. Just looked like a good shmup that was on sale in psn. So many goofy shooters in the 5-7$ range its awesome.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha yeah blaze is a bit more sneaky with the lewd elements at first, crouching tiger hidden panties 😂

[@Bovaz85]

same happened to me. On steam there is an option to disable the lewd, then I could enjoy the gameplay.

[@EightHandedMaya]

for me i think i like the way castle of shikigami 2 did it, nice artwork, good (japanese) voice acting and the dialogue with the bosses changed depending on who you picked. i also didn't mind how Valhellio did it with the story sections before starting a mission. they weren't too long to overstay their welcome but like the other game it having good artwork + voice acting usually sells it for me.

[@johnjeneki3758]

I think the biggest character sprites I've seen in a shmup is Sol Divide, pity it's not a great game though. For cool zoom-in character effects when bombing, Triggerheart has an upcoming re-release.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes this is a trend i am going to keep my on for upcoming shmup releases. It's not a make or break issue on if a game is good, but I think it is an important idea for making a game stand out, especially at first.

[@Squalid]

Funny you put a footage of Hellsinker. because I think the extremely simple formula they use is very effective, at least I like to choose DeadLiar because I think his sprite is cool and the lines during the game make me excited. Also, I grew up playing Star Fox SNES and 64 and even today I know each character's speech off the top of my head, I find this formula extremely effective in my opinion. Because, including 2d sessions etc in a shmup, to me, seems to want to escape the genre or break gameplay, something that in such a gameplay focused genre can be cruel, in the same way that you say you like Bayonetta but the game just put so much non sense ideas that escapes the gameplay of an action game that makes the game weak. I think that a side image that varies according to the game, like a "live reaction", speeches during the game and cutscenes before and after the boss of each phase where your character leaves the ship and does something would be ideal and does not affect the gameplay of a shmup would be a prettty decent option (Man, I really like the Ikaruga presentation!)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes i love the way hellsinker does it's characters, I just think they needed a bit more animation and to do some cool scaling with the camera.

[@Squalid]

@@TheElectricUnderground Thanks, I really appreciate your dedication in the discussions in the videos and even in the comments!

[@finnmarr-heenan2397]

I liked this game the OST and variety was cool

[@hooksnfangs6006]

I also think the character issue also comes from not enough sequels and repetition. People remember characters from Parodius, Twinbee, Cotton, and Touhou a lot mainly because they have more than two entries. Speaking of Touhou I think the fangame Azure Reflections is really good example of your point with 3D models. They're expressive, well animated, the camera zooms in to get personal with spell cards, and you can even put goofy accessories on them to make them more personal. The game made my non-shmup playing sister love Cirno and turn her into a Touhou fan🤣

[@JC-cb8oi]

Yoko Taro originally wanted Nier Automata to be a shmup only. What’s your take on that game?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh man i love the character design of that game (i honestly think that's what carries it), but the shmup sections are not good at all ha. And the character action elements are pretty meh. So that's my pocket review ha. Shmup sections, not good. Action combat, okayish. Character Design, amazing ha.

[@kile1885]

I remember seeing doj's cover art for the first time and thinking its the coolest shit ever, then looking it up and being disappointed the game doesn't look anything like it. I still think it's a very fitting cover though. I don't know how you would integrate player characters in a shmup without it feeling gimmicky, its easier to do for the enemies like touhou does, even the bullet patterns fit the character's personalities and powers.

[@Verticen_]

10:40 Dragon Dlaze kind of executed this mechanic alright; u had the characters that could hop of their dragon and fly around. That game actually handles its personality pretty alright, as does the gunbird series. Overall, I agree w/ video; I'd like to see an effort for better dealing with characters in stg genera. I believe characters should never get in the way of good action gameplay flow (for shmups), but I'm open to enhancing great shooting games with characters and personality. mor anime tiddies too. the _House of Bullets_ boys better be fly Mark; practice what u preach!

[@gcavrubio]

So you want a blaster master shmup. I see.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That looks like a cool idea!

[@hngdman]

Guardian Legend?

[@andyauthor2007]

Caladrius Blaze is EXTREMELY overrated IMO. The whole controversy with the girls losing clothing as they take damage is pretty much a joke because you don't really see anything risky. I think they just put that mechanic in the game for shock value and to try to sell more copies. The overall game itself as a bullet-hell isn't all that good either. Not much to write home about here.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

agreed. I'm not a huge fan of the gameplay, that's one reason why I focused on the character concept for much for the video, because I do think it is the game's most stand out feature for sure.

[@marcoarcadesuperplays]

Hey Mark, I really like those games and I seriously tend to spend lot of times to do 1cc videos on them, but more often I have the doubt to put away my time on develop useless skills, what do you think about? Have you ever thought to do a video on this argument?

[@daserfomalhaut9809]

I'm actually one of the sticks in the mud where I don't...care about playing as characters in these games. And most characters in STG's are extremely unappealing to me to the point that I just outright don't play games like Touhou, Deathsmiles, and the like because of their design choice/focus. I'm of the opinion that STG's are unique in that they provide other inhuman things to play as opposed to every other genre in gaming. Fighters, platformers, RPG's, action adventure, hack and slash, etc. Gross generalization but you get my point. Most games feature human centric characters whereas I can come to an STG and just play as a badass spaceship or some kind of weird ship-ish creature or animal. I like having one genre that isn't trying to be exposition heavy, character centric, something chatting at me the whole game, or character cut ins in the middle of play. If I need anime girls for instance there's no shortage of JRPG's out there for me doing exactly what people want of this genre. Half of my STG enjoyment is getting *away* from that. But that's me. On a more constructive side of things I find this point of conversation is actually kind of shared with the first person shooting genre quite a bit. My thoughts immediately turned to Doom Slayer. Ignoring the actual exposition and external story telling (cutscenes, bits of lore like Daisy's cage etc), Slayer does not speak and you pretty much never see him in gameplay or in the third person save for a scant few specific cutscenes. Except for his hands and the camera itself. Doom Slayer had incredibly subtle touches done with his hand animations and his motions during cinematic moments. Such as when Sam is talking to him on the elevator about "sacrifice" as Slayer looks at a mangled UAC corpse and cracks his knuckles in disgust. He did this a lot through both of his new games and it gave him so much character modern FPS games were lacking outside of like Borderlands. I'm not gonna put a ton of thoughts because this is too long as it is for a KZbin comment. But I think STG's can pull from Doom a bit. Instead of cutscenes, tireless chatting, distracting text, gacha PNG cut ins, whatever, I think *an* answer is really as simple as stylizing what we've got and really pushing the envelope on expressive animation. Some real CupHead tier stuff. We could honestly take that and roll with it extensively. Cute em ups would be an excellent place to start as even they don't really do this enough.

[@GreenTygur]

My favorite patreon read is The ol' Bensta. Followed by Te Quiero Mucho 😊.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I'm glad you like the deep cut, yeah I like to give bensta a bit of an extra accent of some kind ha.

[@djdedan]

OPA OPA FTW!

[@zazi77]

this is why i have always preferred horizontal shmpus. Much easier to depict great characters

[@Thomazbr]

Is isometric view actually unexplored? Isn't that a whole ass genre in Top-down shooters?

[@Cursed_Fruit]

The majority of character really is what they do but it's only noticeable when they aren't doing anything LOL - Characters like Samus and Link come to mind - seeing what they do lets their characters build and grow without a line of dialogue needed

[@lordbacon4972]

That's true -- often the game promotional material has lots of emphasis on the characters, yet they have little or no prominence in the actual game itself. Intentional or not, this IS misrepresentation. But also, if you want to represent characters more prominently within a shmup, it implies the game should incorporate elements of the RPG genre. I'm surprised there are not more of these "shmup RPGs".

[@RuV9999]

i think that's why touhou is such a popular tittle in its genre. i mean it has a tons of girls and they take a role of the game like we have in rpg. Zun put the visual novel like in the middle of its game especially before or after boss/midboss battle. and i think that gimmick create affection for gamer. wait i think cave need to do the same as this since they have a lot of characters(shooty,rayn,Exy,Ageha,Tateha,Seseri,Reco,ketsui dude squad(i forgot their name lol), trio muchi pork girl(also forgot their name lol) . btw Caladrius is ecchi version of raiden.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yep I def agree and I think that because touhou has spin off non shmup games that show the characters more, that helps

[@RuV9999]

@@TheElectricUnderground imagine cave have visual novel-ish gimmick. wait they did??(gothic wa mahou otome)

[@MacuahuitlGaming]

did you play sin and punishment 2 with the wiimote?

[@paxhumana2015]

Why is this even necessary in a shooting game? Seriously, if you want that in a game like this, then you might as well play Cho Aniki.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

well there are a lot of design concepts that aren't completely necessary in a technical sense. But they are elements that can help bring your game to a new audience and to help it stand out from its peers. I think a lot of shmup devs are happy to mostly stick with the formula of the past, but if you are trying to take the genre in a new direction, I think integrating more characters and being more dynamic with the camera are a great area to explore.

[@AdamCHowell]

It's not just the graphaics. Having a good choice of characters with a clear set of strenghts, weaknesses and abilities. Perhaps with their own take on the story (though nothing deeper or more padded than sf2 please) does a lot. Theres that one where the characters you dont pick become the bosses. These are things you expect from any basic fighting game that would (and do) work in a shmup.

[@positiveanion4085]

This is literally the entire reason why I play Touhou and no basically no other SHMUPs. I'm compelled by the characters. I'm playing PCB specifically to beat that stupid fucking ghost lady who keep stealing spring. You can see her in game, You can talk to her in game, it add so much more meaning than "blow up the big thing." The writing is awful enough to freeze you with some english beef, but it is there, and that is more than 99% of shmups can say.