The Shocking Truth About Loudness in Commercial Music

[@AntonelloNicastro]

Absolutely right, the quality of the music and how it sounds is much more relevant than the loudness and, without being too rigid some tolerance is a common sense. What I feel disappointing is that when it comes to the adverts, many times they are way too loud and apparently the streaming services don't react to this with their reduction... anyway,

[@Studio2105]

Here's my funny story about mastering and loudness. I've worked on a wide spectrum of styles from pop, rock, hip-hop, EDM, metal, gospel. The only 2 times where the clients complained about their masters being not loud enough were from what I would expect to hear from last. Not metal, not EDM, not hip-hop; but one from a gospel project and another from a "nasyid" group. Go figure.

[@mixdownonline]

LOL! oh man, that's funny!

[@JayYarbroughMusic]

Great info Chris. And hey, wanted to give a big thumbs up on your video production. Excellent, brother!

[@supareelsmusic9415]

I absolutely love your stuff down to earth advice ... ALWAYS Keep it up man !👍

[@nero00kyrie]

There is always a sacrifice for everything you gain in audio

[@mixdownonline]

Pretty much!

[@chayalexanderwright]

Yeah man - I’m with your policy: never compromise the integrity of the music for trend. If the music sounds dope, people will reach to turn it up.

[@webguitars]

When streaming music, for free, (with adds,) I hear massive differences in ad volumes between songs, so much so, that every time an ad plays, its BLASTING in my ears, and after the ad I need to crank the volume back up for the music. It's a little annoying and I believe anyone attempting to earn listeners and a fan base know this issue may encourage listeners to skip their quiet songs. I'd rather turn it up to keep dynamic range than have to skip a flat un-energetic production. Great content sir!

[@xraycreative741]

Great perspective!

[@mixdownonline]

Thank you!

[@placeoflace]

Inta-great-Ed…..we know what you meant Chris. Keep up the great work.👍

[@gameon2000]

Instagreat!😂

[@lahattec]

I recently purchased a new vehicle and started streaming my ripped CD collection via Plex Amp while driving. Super cool. I do notice a pretty wide range of loudness levels from the CDs, whether the releases are just from a small time frame, or over decades. Also, one the the best sounding recordings and mixes I have heard on a rock album is Jimmie's Chicken Shack's "Pushing the Salmonella Envelope", mixed by Tom Lord Algie.

[@Dystopian84]

This is likely to be the very best video made on this subject !

[@mixdownonline]

Thanks, glad you like it! :-)

[@enricmarshal]

Nice take chris! I loved your point

[@mixdownonline]

Glad you do, thanks for watching :-)

[@lamournoussauve]

Hi Chris, I want to thank you in my very deep heart, for your wisdom and genuine love, thank you! I'm Francis, i'm in music since my 12'; 45 years now, i live nearby Saint Malo, music in the veins. One of the prominent fear in making our own mix and mastering : " will i sound pro ? Will my production will reach the pro level?" So is the question, how can anyone approach the skill to determine if the quality in the selfmade production reach the pro level? ** i know this is a slippery slope, so i address the record! ** I Thank you in advance, my best ! Francis

[@billirwin1726]

Listening to commercial music on my CD player i noticed where the vu meters ( digital) were at and i simply mastered to those numbers thinking its what the " pros" did... I might have to experiment with acoustic guitars to find out how to get loud without losing dynamics... Idk if i explained that right !! Keep up the good work 👍 0:00

[@alexatkin]

Its crazy this needs to be said at all. I'm not involved in music in any way but everything you've said has become blatantly obvious to me just from listening to music over my lifetime.

[@InShatteredReflection]

That’s the thing thing though. When you produce music you start get kind of lost in this stuff. Because PERCEIVED loudness is a thing and that can get really confusing

[@kissofkaos1]

Hi Chris! Personally, I really don't care about loudness when I'm mixing. I just try to make good mixes that sound as good as possible. And when the finishing phase comes (I say finishing, because I don't have the skills of a mastering engineer), I always manage not to hit the limiter too much, so as not to crush everything. And if we want to listen to the music very loudly, we still have these good old volume knobs. Thanks for this video Chris. I would say it in French, and with the accent : tu as remis l'église au centre du village. 😉

[@mixdownonline]

Lol! Thanks for watching, and you're welcome :-)

[@melissashannon2968]

I agree. I prefer quality over loudness as well.

[@mixdownonline]

You got it :-)

[@howlerbike]

I think I'll check the loudness on Chilliwack's "Raino" from about 1970, so closer to the Korean war than the loudness wars. It was one of the most masterful exercises in dynamic music production I can recall.

[@1loveMusic2003]

Loudness potential starts at the beginning of the mix and all throughout. Good crest factor makes it easier to get loud without limiting the hell out of a great mix. Density in the mix is what I aim for. David Gnozzi is the king of teaching how to do it but he doesn't give away everything.

[@Not-Only-Reaper-Tutorials]

Great! Better than a lot of bla-bla-bla

[@mixdownonline]

Glad you liked it! Thanks!

[@dbtube]

A song loudness of -10dbfs before mastering is a way too loud. I mix all songs (prog world) at -16dbfs and master them around -12dbfs. That's the best sound I get without loosing dynamics and without having distortion. Merci Chris.

[@louiewgroenewald]

I downloaded a song from KZbin a few weeks ago, the DAW I use has a loudness measuring feature. And it measured the integrated LUFS at -6.7 and not anything close to -14. The song was a POP song and sounded great. No dynamics crushed. Also if I use I plugin that plays Spottify songs directly in DAW it measures most songs at about -8 /9 +/- . Think therfore most think that we should master at at least -9 to compare with other tracks out there as most people tend to think loud sounds better.

[@speedcrawlmusic]

Thanks again! 🙌

[@mixdownonline]

Of course!

[@sixxtytheone1]

Though the streaming platforms have they own loudness rate, you can still feel the differences in all the songs KZbin tracks doesn't sound the same and I think what really matters is the mixing process.

[@mixdownonline]

Yes, the Mixing process really matters in all of this, totally agree!

[@rturner2095]

If you're burning a CD, you can make it as loud as you want. However, you if creating a track for syncing it's best to give them a track with loudness they ask for.

[@evilone10]

Tu as bien intégré le mot Integrated ! 🤣

[@MickaLafi]

I love it ! I'm keeping trying to learn more and more about mastering, about loudness, about dynamic range. I subscribe to your channel, because i think it's gonna help the songs you can discover on my channel, to be better and better. P.S : Je suis Français, alors vive la France ou le Québec si tu es de Montréal. J'ai justement sorti ma dernière chanson qui se nomme "Montréal" et sur laquelle j'ai un peu exagéré la compression au mastering. Mais bon, on va évoluer. Ce n'est qu'une version single. I just released my latest song called “Montreal” and on which I exaggerated the compression a little during mastering. But hey, we will evolve. This is just a single version.

[@DerekPower]

Merci beaucoup, mon ami ;) =] I favour dynamics myself, but I'm not opposed to loud either. To me, it all depends on what the music itself calls for and if it can handle those high "integrated" ( ;) ) loudness targets.

[@mixdownonline]

You got that right! :-)

[@Durkhead]

Some ppl use the limiter as sort of an extra instrument, the pumping effect that a lot of ppl view as bad can really push the rythem. Thats why some ppl put it in the mix before mastering

[@mixdownonline]

And that can be an artistic decision with a specific reason

[@alainpatry]

2:06 LOL - moi aussi je remarque ces choses mais je dis rien ;) On apprécie ton contenu! En passant, il serait peut-être temps que tu ramènes Tegeler Crème? LOL #classique

[@mixdownonline]

Faudrai ben que j'ramene le crème Lol! Merci, bro!

[@black_amadeus]

@Mixdown Online: Could you please talk about Limiting, Clipping and Wave Shaping. Rather Wave Shaping the wonder tool Sonnox Inflator, you know?

[@QuaverloveStudio]

Hi Chris. The name is Ted.... Integra Ted. Sorry... I couldn't resist. As a producer, I couldn't agree more that loud masters isn't mandatory. One thing I've had to learn quite quickly about mastering is the importance of maintaining a mix's dymamic range as much as possible. The role of a mastering engineer is to enhance a mixing engineer's work, not to change it (which is what will happen when the dynamic range is dramatically reduced for the sake of a "loud" master). Thanks, Chris!

[@mixdownonline]

Ted, LOL! Thanks Simon! Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@QuaverloveStudio]

Chris, do you set a ceiling when you master?

[@mixdownonline]

Yes, - 1dbfs... You can also use -1dbtp. That's for when I master for streaming... For CD format, - 0.3dbfs is good... But I could leave it at - 1db also, not a big deal

[@QuaverloveStudio]

@@mixdownonline I've been going for -1 db for my ceiling, as well. I'm not ashamed to confess, when I first started practising the art of mastering, I was going for as loud as audibly possible, with a ceiling of 0 Realised soon enough how wrong (and damaging) that approach was.

[@cgsmithinnola]

I've been shooting for around -10 LUFS with an LU around 5+ whenever possible as long as it doesn't degrade the overall audio, but I am no professional :)

[@mixdownonline]

"as long as it doesn't degrade the overall audio" You got it, that's the key!

[@americatunedright1211]

You’re right. Do you turn down clients that want to be competitive (include being louder) ?

[@mixdownonline]

Fortunately enough, most of the clients I work with don't care much about that, but if a client wants a loud master and is in a music genre more suitable for this, I won't turn it down, but will give 2 versions, one very loud, and the other more dynamic. Lots of them end up choosing the dynamic one.

[@americatunedright1211]

@@mixdownonline can’t win, if I don’t turn it up they find someone to do it. You’re definitely fortunate for those clients that don’t care about loudness.

[@s96johan]

I am here in Tidal with rme digiCheck and Muse Madness is blowing muy ears out in the choruses, hovering at -5. Same with Survival in the choruses. Same as Complience. Taylor Swift in the last chorus, -6. level is easy. You play the competition, compare with your mix. your mix has to be as loud and have the same punch, better if possible. It's that simple...

[@mixdownonline]

You need to calibrate your Tidal signal properly for the correct reading...I'm using the actual masters from CDs. And NO, your master doesn't have to be as loud as the loudest competition, it just needs to bet at the right loudness level for the mix you're mastering. I really don't give a crap about the competition to be honest, whether I'm quieter or louder, for me the priority is what the song needs...It's that simple ;)

[@s96johan]

@@mixdownonline You have to follow the genre. If the genre or competition is loud, you have to be loud as well. I am listening to CD quality at Tidal, using RMS values in DigiCheck. Uptown Funk also end up at -8 in the chorus, so they are all loud in the end.

[@shorerocks]

Please do a video on tonewood next. I mean, you seem to be on a roll 🤣

[@AK-Official]

Great explanation again Chris😅integrattted

[@mixdownonline]

Thanks! ttttt LOL!

[@AK-Official]

@@mixdownonline 😄

[@natecornell-official761]

I listened to both the Muse songs. I tend to prefer "Compliance", though I did feel it was dry and could have utilized a bit more verb to create space.

[@mixdownonline]

Cool that you checked out the Muse songs... we all have different taste, and that's totally fine :). Thanks for watching, Nate!

[@natecornell-official761]

@@mixdownonline I think that's the beauty of this industry! I'm in general agreement with you on the matter btw... and also Muse is awesome! I've been watching a lot of your videos the past few days as I just decided to abandon Logic Pro after many years working with it. Cubase has always had a special place in my heart but I just needed a crash course to get me pointed in the right direction. @DomSigalas and your channel (and some chatGPT) have been very helpful. Thanks for sharing so much insight!

[@aleksamrkela831]

I'm not in the camp of those who think "loudness = bad" based only on bad examples of loudness. You absolutely can make masters that are clean AND loud. It's not easy to achieve, but it's totally achievable.

[@rman4539]

define "bad"

[@mixdownonline]

Same here, never said loud = bad, but not all music genres will sound good with a loud lufs-I, in my opinion. Yes, it is possible to pull off a good loud sounding master with some mastering experience, and it requires more work for sure, and will be more achievable with sample based productions like EDM, where loudness can be part of the sound, so an artistic choice at some point. With that said, I do prefer more dynamic masters, than to deal with the trade offs, but that's me :-)

[@Durkhead]

Post malone and the weekend are great examples of loud but still clean mixes

[@aleksamrkela831]

@@rman4539 Well, squashed. Distorted low end. Excessive limiting. You know the drill.

[@hilbertshotel]

Isn’t the issue that some streaming platforms won’t boost your song if it’s under -14 LUFS? I think Amazon Music (among others) doesn’t boost. And if you’re worried about loudness, is it best to finalize a louder mix at -12 or -10 LUFS so you don’t have to over-compress the master and risk artifacts, etc.?

[@ricotibo7161]

hahahaha. j'ai ris quand le gars en arrière plan a dis. parle dont comme du monde si t'es pas ......... hahaha.

[@HiggsBosonandtheStrangeCharm]

...thank you.....great info.....

[@mixdownonline]

You're welcome!

[@kwameeyiah]

In Hiphop and EDM -8 to -6 LuFS is competitive.

[@blueslsd]

Just heard both Muse and yes compliance is harsh. It's not that much louder to the user on KZbin, so why ruin it?

[@Somedei]

in EDM loudness means better, many of my masters had been rejected only for the fact they are a couple of lufs less than expected, you either on -6 lufs to -4 or you are out, Im happy for you that you dont have to compete with that but in my court room this is the game, so every bus I have to treat it like a master bus, each individual channel has various clippers, in stages that leaves you at around -7 so at the master track you can push 1 or 2

[@fun2math]

Is it right that you get the .wav files ripping it of the CD?

[@mixdownonline]

Good question...I recorded from Amazon Music (not normalized) at straight levels to get the exact lufs level, and looked at the stats. To make sure it's accurate, I also compared some songs with their CD ripped version...same lufs on all counts :-)

[@Tamablaster]

Great info! If you’re going for a cd, master it as you said and then that quality/volume is baked in. But what about if you’re targeting a streaming platform? Many platforms have their own loudness standard and not all the same, and if too loud they will cut it back. I think that needs to be part of the equation when considering loudness vs quality.

[@LuddyVonBeat]

Intergrated!!

[@pablogordy6645]

"And you know what? I don't care much, to be honest with you." - Chris Selim. Nice takes on all fronts.

[@mixdownonline]

Thanks, my friend!

[@ShonnMorris]

I have to comment on someone remarking on your English in "integrated" vs "integrated". I'm willing to bet their French is worse than your English. I bet they'd mess up, "Un ver vert va vers un verre vert" LOL Sorry, I just had to comment on that. Now. Chris, a question related to the topic, as many years as I've been doing my own music, I keep facing an issue I can't seem to solve. I can mix and master two songs so they are hitting the meters the same but there are some songs that by ear you can hear are louder than others even though the meters say they're the same volume. What am I overlooking here?

[@mixdownonline]

"Un ver vert va vers un verre vert" LOL Love it! What meters are you referring to? If LUFS Intergrated, 2 songs having the same integrated level can sound different in loudness in the end, and that depends on the music arrangement, and the macro dynamics of both songs that might be different. I make sure that the loudest parts of all songs on the same project have the approximately the same LUFS Short Term levels, to get them close, but I always finalize with my ears. Hope that helps!

[@thaexception3406]

Yup

[@Studio22mix]

Most engineers I know don’t care about loudness, as long as it sounds good and is loud as fxc!< 🔈🔉🔊

[@Durkhead]

Make it as loud as you can without sacrificing quality

[@FileTransferProtocol]

Great video. Thanks for putting this out there. I wonder if some of these hyper-loud, hyper-compressed, commercial songs actually contribute to people listening to less music over time? I wonder if everything being FULL ON for extended periods of time creates ear fatigue in the listener. I know when I hear them, I feel like I am staring into the sun. I just can’t do it for very long. It would be interesting to see a full on scientific study on how the loudness wars have impacted the industry over time.

[@tommckeown6970]

Integrated LUFS is deceiving. I tend to want to look at short term as well, over a loop of the loudest section of the song. If you only look at integrated, you won't get consistent results when jumping between mostly loud songs and mostly quiet songs. Just my take.

[@mixdownonline]

My take also kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHzTdJR8iLlpsLc

[@marcusgarveyson]

I disagree with your conclusions on the commercial release music lufs interpretation ..if you measure the chorus of those songs they are -7 lufs-i .. no one measure the entire track lufs ..only the chorus because that's usually the loudest section .. i mean no disrespect by saying this but the only people i see recommending going by -14 lufs are youtubers .. everyone outside of youtube says get it as loud as you can without destroying the song .​@@mixdownonline

[@marcusgarveyson]

​@@mixdownonline another point to make is what if these streaming platforms decide to make it -9 lufs what happen to your song that's already uploaded at -14 lufs..

[@mixdownonline]

@@marcusgarveyson I never said to master at - 14lufs

[@mixdownonline]

@@marcusgarveyson I don't make my mastering decisions based on "what if"... And again, I don't master at - 14dbfs except for classical or jazz music, maybe...

[@YesRelax]

Why netflix and movies in general they reach -24 LUFS ?

[@mixdownonline]

Broadcast feeds like Netflix, and movies are always quieter, there's probably a good reason for this, but I don't have the answer

[@thesoundresidence]

@@mixdownonline Because the broadcast and movies has a Delivery Standard spec (US = -24 LUFS, Europe = -23 LUFS)... music has no standards for delivery what so ever (only recommendations)... If you deliver a movie or pro broadcast program outside the specs (within a small margin), it will be sent back/not accepted. The streaming LUFS specs are somewhat trying to set a standard for playback... But has nothing to do with a completely missing delivery spec for music mixes/masters.

[@jonathanoates1972]

I use the clip to zero method and get consistent -6 lufs in the bare mix with nothing on the master bus at all and this is before is ever goes near a limiter or for mastering. Loud clear dynamic mixes every single time.

[@lloydbrownmusic]

It amazes me that the 'quality' of the song itself, lyrics orchestration arrangement etc. gets further and further pushed to the back of the queue in various audio communities threads, to the point when the song ends up being the ONLY thing in the queue. What is deemed correct to some is sacrilege to others I get that. I can master an atrocious song correctly, doesn't mean that the song will be any better for it. It's all about taste amigos. it's shame that we get tied up in the weeds of this loudness BS. A lot of the greatest songs ever written from the world's creation upwards were produced with 'balance' in mind. Isn't that what we all want for our music that we listen to AND make? or am I trippin' here...just my two penneth

[@mixdownonline]

I agree with you, that's why for me, it's music first :-)

[@rturner2095]

I guarantee you the film music supervisor will reject the track no matter how good the music is if the track is too loud. They are on tight schedules and don't have the time for you to resend the track.

[@SuperBen35]

Pouhaha le boutte en français! 😆👌

[@mixdownonline]

😂😂

[@KUMStudio1]

👏👏👏👏👏

[@gregpastic6910]

Geez...if your song is too quiet why can't I just turn it up? If it's too loud I'll turn it down. If it sounds like crap I'll turn it off. Just make your track sound good (which is totally subjective) and your listener will do one of three things: turn it up, turn it down, or turn it off. These discussions about 'loudness' seem to go in circles and I'm getting dizzy. And there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the difference between 'artificial' loudness and 'real' loudness. Can you PLEASE do a short video to explain the difference? Merci beaucoup and cheers from Gregory at SoundArtMastering.

[@mixdownonline]

Good take on this, Greg!

[@fftunes]

Also interesting to see one of Taylor Swift's tracks has +1.3 dB true peak 👀

[@mixdownonline]

Yes, that can happens in commercial music, some mastering engineers are not that concerned about going above 0dbtp

[@eventtopartmusic3654]

9.4 RMS, thats it.

[@normandlanglois1475]

-8 for me is the best to compete ....and i still get a great soud

[@gmichaelhall]

To the 1 language (usually English)speaking people who feel obliged to correct the pronunciation of of multi language speaking people, just stop. Not only is it rude AF, but keep in mind there is nothing to be gained or offered by trying to be the grammar police. It only demonstrates how small your own thinking is and how minuscule your world experience actually is. Correcting very minor pronunciations of multi linguists also fail to take into account different dialects and even how certain words are pronounced in different English speaking countries. Your solitary moment of grasping for attention for your profound diction highlight is not just rude but it’s also more often than not,quite WRONG. Just try being kind and tolerant of people who go way out of their way to be understood by others including those who don’t share their Mother Tongue. Just be Nice 👍

[@mixdownonline]

Thanks for your comment. Don't worry, fortunately, that doesn't happen often. But it gives me the chance to have a bit of fun when it does...I don;t take myself too seriously Lol!

[@mixdownonline]

I don't mind learning, of course :-)

[@gmichaelhall]

@@CaptainProton1 the point of watching these type of videos is listening and understanding what the tutorial is attempting to convey? You understood his intent didn’t you? Of course you did, that’s the point and the takeaway. Your honing in on his enunciation of 1 word only distracts from the point he made, and you and 99% of viewers understood him perfectly! So it’s rude to point out a meaningless point when it is abundantly obvious that he goes to great lengths to be broadly understood. Gratitude and appreciation is actually less work and it opens up a whole world to people willing to to be more graciously accepting and appreciative of the non English mother tongue speakers. They are always going to inflect their own dialect, it’s just how it is. Travel abroad to a country where you speak the local language that is not your mother tongue, I guarantee you will appreciate the patience people will extend to, and see how you go. It’s amazing how quickly your perspective will change. And you will grow as a person. ✌️ Kind regards

[@ghfjfghjasdfasdf]

(random comment) Oh wow, you have the same mouth as the atari video game guy in Cloak & Dagger the movie.

[@MrRichard1280]

Dude? You're French? Never knew. I guess you're still alright. 😁

[@mixdownonline]

French Canadian :-) Lol!

[@MrRichard1280]

@@mixdownonline Ah.😌

[@korkenknopfus]

There is another element in this cake: with today’s normalization in the different streaming platforms a song that was mastered very loud with very reduced dynamics, can end sounding a lot quieter than a dynamic one, with low LUFS. Personally I find this a good thing, like a weapon to reduce the (in)famous loudness war. The original intention of sounding louder is diluted.

[@svendtveskg5719]

"Loudness" is not nescecarily about volume. (Or is it the other way around...?) The reason commercials appear louder than the music on radio and TV, is the heavy use of compressors, that will make every single little sound - even the dog barking way in the background or a car driving by - equally loud to get your attention. But the overall volume is the same, LUFS-wise. Then you can listen to the album "Time Out Of Mind" by Bob Dylan, produced by Daniel Lanois. It's got so much dynamic range and uses so gentle compression, that it appears way quiter than many other records. But it's still the same, LUFS-wise. And at the other end of the spectrum is classical music, that often is so dynamic, that if the loudest parts fits your room, you almost won't be able to hear the quiet parts. And, if you adjust your volume control to the quietest parts, the loud parts will be way too loud. (That's why you - a lot of times - can't use classical music as a "background wallpaper", you actually have to actively listen...)

[@jespermixing]

PARLE COMME DU MONDE TABARNAK

[@mixdownonline]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@skidogbill]

LOL, “genre” is pronounced the same in English as in French.

[@mixdownonline]

Lol! Thanks for watching!

[@PTFWWDB]

i think mainstream artists have a special treatment with streaming where they are allowed to have louder better sounding stuff

[@mixdownonline]

There's no special treatment on Streaming Services, there's only the way you master your music :-)

[@jvaddison]

LOL Chris don't Bash your English, It's perfecto.

[@mixdownonline]

Lol! Thank you, my friend!

[@DavidComdico]

Music sounded better when you had to turn it up instead of turn it down.

[@mixdownonline]

The good old days!