The Shroud of Turin is AUTHENTIC | Call-in Show with Shroud Expert Joe Marino

[@theresesink1057]

In my soul's belief, the Shroud is totally authentic!

[@inttubu1]

Forensic proof needs no belief!

[@s.mathew3375]

❤i believe shroud is the burial cloth of my saviour❤

[@stephenphillips4984]

You believe it even though the very gospel that told you that the tomb of Jesus was found to be empty indicates beyond doubt that NO BURIAL SHROUD was found there? I suggest you read the gospels more carefully (see my comment above).

[@leawilliams8476]

Jesus left a photograph of Himself! Utterly astonishing!

[@stevenlwills]

Jesus selfie!

[@nikokapanen82]

Don't believe the hype. This was known to be a forgery for a long time.

[@Lvrofmuzik]

​@@stevenlwillsyup. He is definitely the firstborn of everything and he proves this every time! Praise God ❤

[@beverleypettit3577]

Here's remembering dear Barrie Schworts. RIP Barrie. 🤍 🕊 🤍

[@CheerfulFerryBoat-ug8gr]

Darn it man...

[@betsymcnally]

He died????

[@Naomi-bw5qs]

Christ is King.

[@rosiegirl2485]

Christ is the King of Kings!

[@astudent9905]

I've read a lot about the shroud, and i do believe it is the burial cloth of Jesus. However my faith does not rely on any one artifact, but i hope it leads other people, on the trail of evidence, to explore and learn more of Jesus.

[@RealSeekers]

Totally agree, it is not necessary for salvation, for what it is worth, it did play that role in my coming to faith though :)

[@Whims-isms_1776]

I have never been more sad to miss a live. What an awesome show

[@InfoArtistJK]

I saw the shroud up close and personal when I was at the World Cup in Italy in 1990. And it's very powerful, and it is 100% real. I'm so glad I had someone take a picture of me right near the Shroud. And I still have it right there in the other room

[@varuncherkuri565]

That's so cool.... Are you on insta? Can I take a look at that picture?

[@InfoArtistJK]

@varuncherkuri565 This is a series of family pictures to me singing a song that go by fast. The picture of me in front of the Shroud in 1990 is at the 1:13 minute mark. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2fHq4CMjbiaasksi=LvBxI6kKbSzriIAm

[@danielkirienko1701]

That's a bad lie. The Shroud was not displayed between 1978 and 1998.

[@danielkirienko1701]

​@varuncherkuri565 no, because that person is lying. If you visit the Shroud of Turin website, or it's Wikipedia link, you'll see that the Shroud is very rarely on display and this was not one of those times. It was displayed in 1978, 1998, and 2000. But not in 1990.

[@ralphnumaralai7696]

Since I heard about the shroud of Tourin through videos and some articles, there have been some negetive responses, from naysayers and skeptics, but I have never once doubted this amazing discovery, for a fact that something bigger was coming to prove all the critics and skeptism wrong. Yashua is truly Lord to the glory of God 🙏

[@gnomeresearch1666]

The Shroud is amazing. I used to doscount it as a forgery, but the claims and research are just so powerful.

[@stephenphillips4984]

According to the Gospel according to St John (20: 3-7), NO burial shroud was found in the empty tomb. In other words, the fact that it was not mentioned proves that no such sheet doubled in half like the Turin Shroud was ever used. You believe in an interpretation of this linen cloth that the gospels do NOT support. Why is that? You have not read your bible carefully. The Turin Shroud is contradicted by the gospel account. It is a forgery.

[@PraeytoGod]

Joe’s the foremost Sindonologist! What a great interview! I’m now a true fan of Capturing Christ! ❤

[@RealSeekers]

Hi Annette- fancy meeting you here :)

[@PraeytoGod]

@@RealSeekers: DALE!❤

[@RealSeekers]

@@PraeytoGod Hey, you'll be happy to know I'm working on a major Shroud show right now as a tribute to Barrie- looks like it will be on July 19th, but I have something like 16 Shroud experts all willing to come on to honour his memory and legacy :)

[@PraeytoGod]

❤ Oh! I’m so thrilled, Dale! You’re so masterful at uncovering the TRUTH! (Even better than Harvard’s VERITAS!👍😎🤩❤!

[@RealSeekers]

@@PraeytoGod Thank you Annette, so glad that you appreciate my shows there, I really want to do my best to go in depth on the issues and represent both sides of the debate there as I don't think others do that, it is usually only one side presented. Wow, that is an amazing compliment from you, better than VERITAS- I'm honoured :)

[@rosiegirl2485]

Fr. Andrew Dalton is also someone very powerful to listen to on the Shroud of Turin! He did an interview with Matt Fradd on Pints With Aquinas. 😊

[@evanparrafx]

That's probably the greatest and most fascinating interview I've ever seen. Highly recommended!

[@rosiegirl2485]

@evanparrafx I totally agree with you! Fr. Dalton himself had the majority of information at the ready. He is highly knowledgeable of the evidence and well researched. I believe the interview was 3 plus hours, and I was completely consumed from beginning to end!

[@_Archambaud]

Jesus is Lord

[@justin10292000]

Real, honest doubt searches for the Light. Mere hardened unbelief wants and remains in the darkness.

[@RealSeekers]

I have one disagreement with something Cameron said toward the end, he thinks it is so much better not to advance a theory on how the Shroud images were formed because we can't prove any theory is absolutely true at this point. So I agree that it is good and proper to admit ignorance when one doesn't have reason to favour one theory over another or to keep an open mind to multiple equally probable or nearly equally probable explanations, but at the same time, I think it is wholly wrong-headed to think that attempting to make specific theories to try and explain the Shroud images is wrong or a waste of time- no this is better, this is what we should all be doing. I think God wants us to use our brains to study the Shroud evidence and advance our understanding and currently it does seem that we can learn a lot by coming up with explanatory hypotheses and then testing them to see if they work or not. Now, it is true that all the theories to date have either failed (artistic and natural theories) or at best been proven to be sufficiently adequate yet speculative explanations (various supernatural radiation or divine photo hypotheses), but we learn from the failures and coming up with detailed hypotheses helps us to better our understanding and become more nuanced in our appreciation of the Shroud evidence. Failed or not, I have massive respect for every Shroud expert, skeptical or Pro-Shroud, who have put in the effort to advance a theory and then done what they could to test those theories, it is precisely because of such people's efforts that I was able to make my argument that the Shroud images are miraculously designed by God and thus become a Christian; we need as much of that as we can get imo :)

[@gerdacoetzee]

Can you edit the trolling out of the video. Offensive on such a sacred subject. I love your videos. Thanks!

[@ltkreg]

Here's the bottom line; whether the Shroud is a holy hoax from the 14th century, or the burial cloth of Jesus from the 1st century, even with all our 21st century technology we still cannot explain how that image with all it's unique features got on that cloth. 😊

[@Papa-dopoulos]

Which begs the huuuuuge question - how the hell did a medieval (or earlier) hoaxer do this? I mean, I truly find the resurrection of a dead man more likely than some pox-riddled charlatan from the 16th century emblazoning a 3D, negative image a hair's breadth deep onto a burial cloth lol. It's just..so ridiculous to think about. Even if it's a forgery, it is truly a miracle, no meme

[@danielkirienko1701]

Paint.

[@ltkreg]

@@danielkirienko1701 For sure it's not paint

[@FentonMulley-cz8pv]

That's like saying we can't rebuild the pyramid or go back to the moon. You don't understand modern technology. We can and have created paintings like the shroud. It's not a mystery outside of the small community of gullible christians. Look at the the way this guy speaks and the choices he makes. His defenses and self confidence are incredibly similar to the Terrence Howard/ Weinstein conversation.

[@ltkreg]

@@FentonMulley-cz8pv Do a little reading and you will learn it most definitely isn't paint. It seems to be some sort of oxidation on the very top layers of the fabric.

[@Somewhereoutthere-wf8zx]

As for why Jesus arm were long is even more evidence to me... "Jesus’ arms stretch to a minimum of six inches longer than their original length..." on the cross. In fact the Bible says his bones were out of joint. So this is definitely the reason why the cloth shows why the measures are off. The fact that his arms and legs were stretched or dislocated and the cloth captured those details is astonishing.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

TY. I had not noticed that observation before.

[@TheMoreYouSew]

@@Somewhereoutthere-wf8zx where is that quote from? Thanks!

[@Somewhereoutthere-wf8zx]

@TheMoreYouSew Google... The Science of the Crucifixion - Azusa Pacific University.

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@Somewhereoutthere-wf8zx Really? The ‘bones out of joint’ is from Isaiah, 800 years before Jesus, and not about him at all. Not to mention that there is no evidence on the image of swelling from a joint, nor would a dislocated arm stretch for six inches. The very idea is ridiculous.

[@Somewhereoutthere-wf8zx]

@davethebrahman9870 I was about to respond, but it's clear you're uniformed. I've debated this extensively. I'll wait to discuss this with someone who is better informed. Trust me I mean no disrespect. I say that with the love of the lord.

[@daveyofyeshua]

💯 the real deal, can't be replicated even today 🙌

[@stephenphillips4984]

Yes, it can. And it HAS. Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince reported successful reproduction (with photos) of an image of a human head using a camera obscura in their book "Turin Shroud: How Leonardo da Vinci fooled history."

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

@@stephenphillips4984 LOL ! da Vinci was born 100 years AFTER the 1557 Lirey exposition. The Pickett/Price so-called reproduction cannot pass the tests that the STuRP team used on the Shroud in1978. If so tested, it would immediately be called out as the work of a human artist.

[@cannephillips]

The shroud is very real.

[@rosalucatero964]

Christ Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords, He can take the headaches and depression away just Believe He is awesome God.

[@tarjeibjerkedalene]

Nice. I hope to see it next year.

[@dirkryan5962]

(1:02:05) personally, i'm of the opinion that the inconsistent C-14 carbon dating results could be the result of _both_ the "invisible reweave" _and_ "neutron absorption." the neutron absorption theory seems perfectly plausible, but we also know that actual cotton, gum residue, and dye were found in the sample piece. and as we know from other testing, none of these contaminants were found in the rest of the original linen Shroud itself. and when you consider the fact that the corners were handled more than any other section of the Shroud, it all goes to show that the dating scientists picked the absolute _worst_ spot on the Shroud to attempt to date. so i guess i support all _three_ hypotheses-cotton patch; neutron absorption; carbon contamination. but thanks to the research of people like Mr. Marino, i believe the Shroud of Turin to be the authentic burial cloth of our Lord Jesus Christ! thanks and God bless!

[@unripetheberrby6283]

Barrie Schwartz passed recently?? No waay, I was on the website awhile ago 😩💔 Seemingly lovely man, God bless him 😢 ✝️ I'm so sorry friend

[@dustinthewind357]

9:00 Could hanging on a cross potentially stretch the arms a bit?

[@stephenphillips4984]

No, because the weight of the body of Jesus was supported by nails driven through his feet.

[@betsymcnally]

It’s the Bill Belichick of Shroud work! Love it

[@Binxy8]

That weird caller made me blush even more than he made Cameron blush 🤢

[@v1e1r1g1e1]

HOW TO MAKE A MEDIEVAL SHROUD FORGERY - For Those Who Wonder How 'They' Did It FORGER: Right guys... now, have we got the body of the dead guy ready? ASSISTANTS: Yeah... yeah.. hang on... FORGER: Was it much trouble finding a perfectly healthy six foot tall 30-something male who we were going to torture... beat up... and then crucify secretly and not get caught? ASSISTANTS: Oh yeah! It was a breeze! We just got this guy who looks exactly like our ideas of Jesus' appearance straight out of the local prison. You know... there's heaps of them there like that... all ready just for us to pull off this forgery. FORGER: Did you crucify the guy in exactly the same way as the First Century Romans did in the region of Judea? ASSISTANTS: Yeah.. yeah.. we got it exactly right... FORGER: ... including making sure that you put the nails through the right places …? ASSISTANTS: Yeah, yeah... we put the nails through the right places ... and, yes, we used a Roman flagrum just like you told us to.... FORGER: ... and did you make sure you got the cloth from 1st century Judea... pollen traces and all...? ASSISTANTS: Yeah, we did that... FORGER: Okay, we gotta hurry... we want the blood stains to show up exactly like the guy was wrapped in a Shroud shortly after his death... just like in the Book, okay... ASSISTANTS: We're hurrying... but.. hang on... have you got the Special Image-Making Machine That No-one Else Around This Time Has Got ready....? FORGER: Yeah... but we better get this right... we've only got so much special cloth, you know.... ASSISTANTS: Oh, by the way, we made sure we pressed the Face Cloth over the guy's head ... so we got that bit from the Book right, too... FORGER: Okay... good... now, hold the Dead Guy there... put the arms over the crotch... okay, you can take the 1st Century Roman era coins from off his eyes now... and here we go... ready... ASSISTANTS: Hang on! This image we're making... what's it gonna look like...? You sure you know what you're doing? FORGER: Yeah, yeah.... It's gonna look like a crucified guy and we're gonna pass it off as the Shroud of Jesus! We're gonna do this to make people believe in the story... 'cos they need that... ASSISTANTS: So... who's gonna see this again...? FORGER: Everyone! We'll take it to the Pope or something. Yeah. That'll work. Who knows...? We might actually get paid a fortune for it. It'll help the Faith. We're doing something good. ASSISTANTS (after the image has been made): Umm... boss...? We can't see it clearly. Did it work? It's all pale brown and ... blurry.... and I don't think anyone's gonna get fooled by this. And how come it's all.. you know... 'weird'..? It doesn't look right; the bits that should be light are dark... and the shadows are all in the wrong way.... FORGER: Oh no... I've got that right. The Special Image-Making Machine That No-one Else Around This Time Has Got does that... It makes things go back to front. Yeah. People will understand that. Makes it look all mysterious and magical and special and miracle-y. People are stupid; they'll believe anything. ASSISTANTS: And why are we doing all this again...? FORGER: To strengthen the Christian Faith and to make bucket-loads of money. ASSISTANTS: You know what....? We can make HEAPS of these images!!! Just crank up that Machine Thingy again.... we can use any ol' cloth... no-one's gonna be that fussy to check. I mean, for crying out loud! Who do you know checks out the weave of centuries-old cloth from Ancient Judea... or looks for pollen....!?! Yeah. That's how it all happened, folks. Simple as that. And that's how you fake a Shroud of Turin.

[@staines888]

Are you serious? I thought you were joking 😂😂😂

[@ralphnumaralai7696]

Your write-up is kindergarten stuff, nothing professional or sophisticated about it 😢

[@v1e1r1g1e1]

@@ralphnumaralai7696 Then you must be a staggeringly stupid person, to not understand what a ''kindergarten'' person has written!

[@v1e1r1g1e1]

@@ralphnumaralai7696 By the way, how many 'thumbs up' have you got for your reply?

[@ralphnumaralai7696]

@v1e1r1g1e1 is that your standard of proving your stupidity?? 😅 you can't beat the overwhelming evidence by highly qualified scientists that clearly refute and demolish all naysayers and Agnostics arguments. On the other hand, my remarks is based on facts and not some random attention seeking posts spewing garbage like yours 😂

[@JamesMiddletonDesign]

Ahhh! That's the guy. I remember hearing Ray Rogers talking about a couple that questioned the cloth samples, based upon the weave. All coming together now.

[@RealSeekers]

Yep Joe Marino and his wife Sue Benford- that's them :)

[@JamesMiddletonDesign]

@@RealSeekers I love it when the pieces join together. Thanks.

[@RealSeekers]

@@JamesMiddletonDesign Absolutely, no worries ;)

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

Leading Shroud scholars do not accept the Marino/Rodgers "secret patch" hypothesis. See minute 58:00 of the video. Mr. Marino did not have an explanation for the 8th century radiocarbon dating of the Sudarium. The Phillips/Rucker neutron absorption hypothesis accounts for that anomaly.

[@RealSeekers]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 Jeff- have you forgotten who I am? Lol- we literally talk all the time on my channel and as you know, I agree fully with you that Bob Rucker's Neutron Irradiation works and Invisible Re-Weave does not- still I think the majority of Shroud scholars do in fact opt for the Invisible re-weave hypothesis as of today regardless whether that consensus is warranted or not- so just keeping it real on that front. Bob's theory is very likely correct, but it's not the majority view among Shroud experts on the Pro-Shroud side right now.

[@hayatelaguna7599]

Isn't the point of okhams razor not that you opt for the simplest answer, but rather you don't complicate an explanation beyond necessity.

[@1001011011010]

It is that you do not multiply entities beyond that required for an explanation. It doesn't always lead one to the true explanation but regardless people prefer a simpler explanation to a more complicated one when both adequately explain a phenomenon.

[@jeremyluce4354]

Important part missing is -> all things being equal

[@Papa-dopoulos]

The vast majority of the time, people who think they disagree on Occam's razor don't actually disagree. They both agree with the concept that the simplest answer prevails, but simply bicker about which answer to the proposed question of the debate is simpler. It's also important to note that people sometimes ignore the relevance and proportionality of the answer to the question. For example, when ignoring the historical and other lines of reasoning, "it didn't happen" is a far, far simpler explanation to the resurrection of Jesus on its face than "yes, it did happen." But when you actually grasp the historical account, you realize that claiming it didn't happen actually *is* impossibly complicated, because it would have required mass, combined, audio-visual hallucinations (lol, Dr. Ehrman) and other (ironically) miraculously unlikely coincidences. It's not just the simplest answer. You have to balance the simplicity of the answer with its ability to satisfy all the components of the question. Answering "four" to an insanely complex math problem is simpler than the correct answer lol. You get the point.

[@Testimony_Of_JTF]

​@@Papa-dopouloswell said

[@Papa-dopoulos]

@@Testimony_Of_JTF It's just math. I talk all day to whoever will listen. Every few days, I say one smart thing. 😆

[@brycepardoe658]

The shroud of Turin is very interesting. I'm not sure which way tbh.

[@winstedwildmanresearch]

So many Christians are so skeptical to this amazing photo on linen. Sad.

[@49erJoe]

Better to be skeptical rather than fall for anything. Gullible weirdos do that. See: New Age Christianity

[@jcarh]

I hope this goes better than the last time you interviewed this expert.

[@ryanmowry1170]

question: if the radiation responsible for the image was on the order of a 1000 billion watts for it to leave the imprint wouldn't the shroud burst into flames? was the radiation released in an instant or over a specific period of time? Thanks 👍

[@scottkushner3217]

They actually KNOW how many lashes is on Christ! Then know where the TWO roman soldiers were standing AND their actual heights! One was in front of Christ, one was in back of him.

[@davethebrahman9870]

What is your evidence for that? We have no surviving descriptions of a Roman flogging, and no archaeological data that is relevant.

[@joe-cm4lz]

​@@davethebrahman9870tbe gospels do record the flogging but other than that I haven't heard of any and the exact number of lashes is pretty much impossible I think

[@salmonkill7]

​@@davethebrahman9870You can see the lash marks and corresponding blood stains they left that soaked into the burial linen!!

[@barbdwyer5759]

It’s REAL!!!!!

[@vaderof5]

Akiane's Prince of Peace painting was featured in the movie "Heaven is for Real".

[@catholicarrows]

What most do not realise is that the Shroud's secrets being unveiled is because this is the age of the Holy Face Devotion. Arise O Lord!

[@Charity-vm4bt]

Catholic Arrows, yes, I agree

[@JacksonMitchell792]

Hallelujah!!! I’m blessed and favored with $60,000 every week! Now I can afford anything and support the work of God and the church. For Your glory, LORD! HALLELUJAH!

[@AndrewJoseph_oo]

Oh really? Tell me more! Always interested in hearing stories of successes.

[@JacksonMitchell792]

This is what Ana Graciela Blackwelder does, she has changed my life.

[@JacksonMitchell792]

After raising up to 60k trading with her, I bought a new house and car here in the US and also paid for my son’s (Oscar) surgery. Glory to God.shalom.

[@AmandaNicole__0]

I know Ana Graciela Blackwelder, and I have also had success...

[@AmandaNicole__0]

Absolutely! I have heard stories of people who started with little or no knowledge but managed to emerge victorious thanks to Ana Graciela Blackwelder.

[@TheRadChadDad]

Christ is risen! ☦️☦️☦️

[@pdworld3421]

how could there be an image on the shroud and not the face cloth

[@beverlyhurd8556]

Simple! The face cloth of Jesus was not on him when he was resurrected. It was taken off of him when he was brought into the tomb.

[@pdworld3421]

@beverlyhurd8556 why would they have done that?

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

@@pdworld3421 The face cloth was a temporary covering to shield the deceased's facial blood issues from his relatives. Why it was removed is unknown. Maybe an angel told someone to do that.

[@pdworld3421]

@@beverlyhurd8556 Because the Sudarium of Oviedo is said to be covered with Aloe which would have been used in first century Burials as a preservative. That seems to me like it was put under the shroud. Did they prepare the body in the tomb? Does it say that in the gospels?

[@beverlyhurd8556]

@@pdworld3421 The head cloth was wrapped around his head after he died but was still on the cross. When Joeseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus brought him into the tomb they wanted to clean his face and body for burial. Be difficult to do if his head was still wrapped up.

[@RensSpace]

I believe the shroud is 💯 authentic. My only question is. Do we have any other Jewish shroud surviving from the first century? If yes is it similar to holy shroud

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

Fragments exist. However, burial shrouds are destroyed by the decomposition of the corpse.

[@RensSpace]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 yes. So basically just as Barrie Schwortz mother once said, if a Jewish shroud from the first century exists today let alone with the prints of a crucified man on it, without a shadow of a doubt it belongs to the most famous Jewish man in history.

[@TheMoreYouSew]

Sad to have missed this live. Is there any possibility of retesting of the Shroud or probably not?

[@danielkirienko1701]

Probably not.

[@n8thal718]

The burial technique in those days bound the subject... What is the reason for not binding and covering of the head?

[@JadDragon]

Never go into the KZbin comment section, especially if you're a guest on the channel. Jesus lives! ♥️ and is God 🙏🏻 Christ ✝️ and King 👑

[@scottkushner3217]

The image was made from a radio-active light SO intense that happened at the moment when Jesus resurrected (life was breathed back into His Body) that it amounts to the intensity of so many atomic bombs going off at one time that's impossible for us to duplicate. Also, we know, from The Shroud, that Jesus was on the cross A LOT longer than we thought and what the Church teaches. Christ's body was in rigor mortis when He was buried. We know this by Christ's bent knee on The Shroud. Rigor sets in to the human body, especially the lower extremities, at about 8-9 hours AFTER death. So, Jesus was on the cross suffering for more than 10 hours. Fr Dalton even comments that they probably have to force Jesus' arms down to His side because they we're probably stiff and out to His side when He was taken down from His Cross.

[@williamjudge4913]

From a simple search rigor mortis sets in 2-6 hours, and peaks at 12 and subsides over the next 24-36 hours. If Jesus died on Friday April 3, 33AD (14 Nissan day before feast of matzahs during the slaughter of lambs according to the temple cal, and day of preparation for Shabbat) at around 3pm (9th hour) and sundown (beginning of Shabbat) is around 7:00pm then rigor mortis could have set in before they took him down. This assumes it took a while to get his body, and that they didn't finish the rituals/anointing. All fitting in the biblical narrative.

[@Electricalpenguin]

What reason is there to think that miraculous resurrection causes the release of radiation? And if you’ve got energy akin to multiple atomic bombs being let off, how would the shroud have survived?

[@davethebrahman9870]

We don’t know much at all beyond the bare fact of Jesus’s crucifixion.

[@MC-ol5lx]

​@@Electricalpenguinthe ground in hiroshima survived- the shadows still visible today are saud to be the areas shadowed by objects which absorbed the energy. Do cgeck out fr spitzer priest and phycists, cold fusion etc

[@danielkirienko1701]

You contradict yourself in your own post. Rigor sets after death. It has nothing to do with how long he may have been on the cross.

[@rosiegirl2485]

Your guest needs to watch Jimmy Akins video on the Holy Fire. Jimmy investigates and finds that it's not true!

[@RealSeekers]

Really? That is interesting, I'm skeptical of it myself having looked into it partially, but I haven't done a full investigation- I'd love to hear why Akin denies it- thanks :)

[@Electricalpenguin]

@@Somewhereoutthere-wf8zx I’m going to have to call BS on that.

[@patricpeters7911]

Yeah I found it unfortunate he spoke so highly of the holy fire, since it’s not authentic. Especially when he’s on here to defend the authenticity of the shroud. Jimmy Akin’s mysterious world episode was very convincing. Even orthodox clerics involved basically admit it. The notion it’s a miracle is not publicly refuted for sake of the public, but it’s not an actual miracle. The clerics light the flame.

[@RealSeekers]

@@patricpeters7911 Man I wish I could invite Jimmy Akin to do a debate with Giulio Fanti (the scientist who studied the Holy Fire that Joe mentioned), but Fanti can't do debates in English. Still, I will look at Akin's video and perhaps try to invite him on my show to address Giulio's paper on the Holy Fire and it's relation to the Divine Photography explanation of the Shroud images. Yeah I think some kind of supernaturally produced charged particle Radiation is really the best explanation we have at the moment, not some Eastern Orthodox ritual- God just doesn't operate in that way in terms of producing miracles year after year as a regular ritual in the way the Orthodox claim- it's not his MO in the Messianic era.

[@rosiegirl2485]

@@RealSeekers Watch Jimmy's video. It's very thorough.

[@Daniel-tb5fr]

1:26:30 is the trolling act in question

[@judeclymer4102]

Thank you

[@glenwillson5073]

Only DNA could scientifically link the shroud to Jesus. However it's not Jesus because: "Does not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" (1 Cor 11:14) The shroud body has long hair. "As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:" (Isaiah 52:14) The shroud body face is perfect.

[@Shawna-dw7vh]

The burst of light that happens when sperm meats ovum is like the burst of light that happened when our savior was resurrected. Born again in Spirit. His new body.

[@sabrinanascimento5248]

It’s real, I read the book on it.

[@tonygarcia6528]

What was the blood type? And was it recess + or -

[@BryanKirch]

Does anyone know of the dna has ever been tested from the Eucharistic miracles and cross examined with the shroud ?

[@michaelgreene8319]

I found his argument around 34:00 about the apostles viewing the cloth as unclean very unconvincing…the apostles would view the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, who rose, and who’s blood they drank every mass, as unclean? Can anyone shed any light on this? I understand its association with death, but if it’s Christ’s own cloth, that seems moot…

[@davethebrahman9870]

I think it almost certain that the initial followers of Jesus would have considered the burial cloths unclean. This is no way supports the Shroud of Turin, which is an obvious fake.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

In ancient times people had a very well developed sense of what was unclean. When a person became unclean, they had to go into isolation until purified, and special rooms existed in most households for this purpose. If one walked on a grave, one became unclean (even if the gave was not marked.) Anything associated with death could cause a person to become spiritually polluted. This was the mind-set in ancient times and especially so in Israel. That is why the Shroud was not publicly shown in its entirety until the 13th century. Until then people would not want to so much as look at a bloody burial shroud.

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 The early Jewish followers of Jesus would most certainly have viewed the burial cloths ( there was no ‘shroud’) of Jesus as unclean. This does not at all affect the Shroud’s authenticity or lack of it.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

@@davethebrahman9870 The Gospels say that Joseph brought a "sindone." That word means a linen sheet and has the connotation of burial shroud. So there certainly was a linen burial sheet. If you don't want to call it a "shroud," that is your privilege. Many who have some kind of bias against the authenticity of the Shroud (JW's, etc.) try to use what John says about the linen strips lying on the ground. There were linen strips involved in the internment, but those were used to secure the linen sheet to the dead body. John is very descriptive about what the "other disciple" saw at the tomb up to the point where "he saw and believed." Here John suddenly becomes very tight-lipped. There is something he dare not mention for fear of it being confiscated by the authorities. That "something" was the miraculous image of Jesus' dead body on his burial sheet which indicated that his corpse had dematerialized. the authorities would not have liked such a thing and would have tried to destroy it. In our present day, sects that have rejected the traditional depiction of Jesus (which is based on the Shroud) find it necessary to attack the authenticity of the holy relic. The JW's have published several tracts against it. What is the source of your own bias?

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 Your point is correct, but utterly irrelevant to either the authenticity of the Shroud, or to the question of cleanliness, which were the matters under discussion.

[@thatswhatshesaid.literally737]

🤔 🤷‍♀️ *I always wonder why nobody mentions the fact that immediately after the British Museum announced the findings of the radio carbon dating, (saying the Shroud dated to much later than the life of Christ and therefore could not be genuine) there was an anonymous donation given to the British Museum in the sum of **_1.5 million euros_** . Does this not in itself lend suspicion to the entire dating process? It says to me that some very powerful, very rich, secret entity wanted to see the Shroud "proven a fake" and paid a large amount to see that done.*

[@nateswan9527]

How immediately? Like hours, days, weeks, months, in the same year? You are being extremely vague...

[@James-g3w7w]

Yes and now there's protests of the British museum over the energy embargo because guess who they support and guess what they don't want us to know about the shroud

[@RealSeekers]

Yep. And Tite was immediately offered a prestigious well paying position right after the announcement came out about the Shroud being a medieval fake. Very sus indeed. Guy Powell, myself and others are working on getting Nature to retract this fraud of a paper, we have many signatures on a petition and our now in the works of submitting a formal request for amendment or retraction to Nature as we speak :)

[@James-g3w7w]

@@RealSeekers Not in a position to do this myself but I would be interested in FOIA REQUESTS concerning the shroud in the US and BRITAIN. The confirmation of the shroud could have a lot of consequences and shroud science and technology could too.

[@RealSeekers]

@@James-g3w7w Well, if you mean with respect to the Shroud itself or something, it is owned by the Pope personally, so not sure that would work, but with certain info like the C-14 data you can still get access to it if you want.

[@chasefreak]

More testing HAS to be done on the shroud. It needs to be dated to circa 30 AD. Too many variables and it's frustrating.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

The Shroud has been dated to the first century by alternate methods. However, it will NEVER date to the first century by carbon fourteen. See: "The Carbon Dating of the Shroud is Explained by Neutron Absorption," Rucker, 2020.

[@stratguitarman7831]

WHY IS NO ONE MENTIONING WIDE ANGLE XRAY ANALYSIS (WAXS)? Better than C14 dating and dates Shroud to the proper date !

[@saintly365]

It’s not uninteresting… I have notifications on for you, and YT still did not notify me.

[@jeremyluce4354]

I got them

[@CapturingChristianity]

It’s possible you are subscribed to a lot of channels and YT doesn’t want to send too many notifications. It happens to me too to other channels I have notifications on for.

[@wipo3654]

​@@CapturingChristianity STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Program 1978-1981) report confirms very good that the Shroud CANNOT BE the authentic burial cloth of Jesus. According to the Gospel of John the body was CERTAINLY wrapped/bound in linen cloths WITH the spices: John 19,39+40 Nicodemus, who had previously come to Jesus at night, also brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. So they took the body of Jesus and wrapped it in linen cloths WITH the spices, according to the Jewish burial custom. So, there must be at least non biodegradable particles and stains like it is claimed for blood - but there was/is EMPHASISED NOTHING. I quote an excerpt of STURPs 1981 final report; "Microchemical evaluation has indicated NO EVIDENCE OF ANY SPICES, OILS, or any biochemicals known to be produced by the body in life or in death. It is clear that there has been a direct contact of the Shroud with a body, which explains certain features such as scourge marks, as well as the blood." Already that is enough to disprove the Shroud, comparing it with the biblical account. More details in a video presentation on my channel. Click icon W to the left-top of this comment and refute me where I am biblically-logically wrong.

[@chriseggleston7573]

Blood type?

[@beverlyhurd8556]

AB+

[@jy7383]

The cloth of the holy shroud is not herring-bone. It is three-point twill, with which it is easy to weave a seamless coat.. Turin now holds a relic - revered two thousand years - This length of linen three point twill - alerted experts’ fears, that what the Church has always taught, just might, indeed, be true, that they might have to think again - or even start anew. If grasp of mathematics equals that of History, then what they know of either, dents their credibility - their maths inspired no confidence, as in a simple range, their choice of kinds of samples had a tendency to change. while fibres of pure linen, over centuries, stay true - and Carbon-dating systems can tell when they were new - persuade belief in miracles most difficult to take of man-made painted blood-stains of mediaeval fake. What little is “de fide,” alone, is root and seed of what makes sense of knowledge, of prejudices freed. If Biblical tradition cannot be guaranteed we do not know whom we can trust, no matter what we read. If plumb-lines are rejected, there would seem a kind of rift twixt what is learned by science - and what is known by gift. For TRUTH is same for all of us, for science and life as well - and truth leads us to Heaven, whereas falsehood leads to HELL - and Revelation tells us that all truth will set us free - not only here before we die, but through eternity - And printed on the holy shroud - the King of Kings is seen - the Son of God - the Son of Man - the Son of Heaven’s Queen Though not the holy spirit, she was just the second Eve - with His consent another man was made she could conceive “a second Adam to the fight and to the rescue came” from Nazareth and Bethlehem - and Jesus was His name

[@patricpeters7911]

Jimmy Akin has a whole episode on the holy fire miracle. It’s not a miracle. Clerics admit it. I recommend his episode on Mysterious World. Unfortunate the fire miracle was beefed up in the context of this show on the authenticity of the shroud, since the fire miracle is not authentic :/

[@yoshiperspectives4880]

38:40 So there is an ancient Aramaic version of the New Testament and there is debate about whether or not it predated the Greek. But that doesn't matter right now. Galatians 3:1 from the Aramaic text reads literally: "...For behold, Yeshua the Messiah is like an axis drawing before your eyes as crucified." Axis could very well refer to how the drawing was front and back images.

[@clemson1993]

The reason the image shows elongated fingers is because there was a strobe effect to the image being produced and the image shows the fingers to be moving making them look elongated. This image literally "photographed" and captured the actual resurrection moment of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[@KG-jx8zt]

Joe Marina seems nice but he's not very forthcoming on details. I've found Gary Habermas gives much more detail and information in general.

[@JJones-cl4dm]

I believe its real. Not that i need proof. I read that the carbon dating was taken from a repaired section of the shroud after a fire so its innacurate, the image on the shroud is a negative image like a photo negative, and the image is molecularly fused INTO the cloth not ONTO the cloth.

[@sandraswift3489]

Iholy spirit confirmed that it was genuine.before scientists confirmed

[@MC-ol5lx]

Everyone: check fr spitzer priest and physicist.

[@yoshiperspectives4880]

Organic material found on the shroud like pollen or limestone COULD HAVE gotten there by cross contamination. BUT, the point is that the location on the shroud (knees and nose) and the specific location they traced the material to FITS THE HYPOTHESIZED STORY of what the shroud is which the other points of evidence ALSO FIT that same story. It becomes a network of evidence all pointing to the same thing making it more and more probable that the shroud is authentic as there is no hypothesis to explain the shroud as non authentic AND be supported by ALL the evidence.

[@fre7717]

at around 1:07:25, it is not necessarily either/or- it could be the carbon dating influenced by both neutron absorbtion as well as due to corruption of the sample with cotton.

[@BryanKirch]

The holy fire has been exposed and debunked it was disappointing to see him talk about it so favorably

[@patricpeters7911]

Considering Jimmy Akin demonstrates the “holy fire miracle” discussed in this show is indeed inauthentic and not a miracle, I’m looking forward to when Jimmy has an episode on the Shroud.

[@Shawna-dw7vh]

There is one test yet not done. Compare the blood of the. Ark of the first covenant that is already done with a sample from the shroud. They have to do it the same as the blood on the Ark of first covenant.

[@joelash9845]

I want to believe it's real and am also inclined to believe it is real. But I believe the entire Bible every word, in Isiah it says his beard was plucked from his face pre crucifixion. How can that be explained?

[@beverlyhurd8556]

As the image on the Shroud _clearly_ shows, some of his beard indeed was yanked out. Notice the 'V' notch where it used to be. So yes, much of his beard was pulled out but no one gave him a shave.

[@danlopez.3592]

lol. The Bible is just a bunch of stories written by men. Don’t make a bigger deal of it than any other religious text.

[@dougarmour6738]

There may be a way to determine the origins of the shroud using DNA data. If DNA from the patches and backing for the shroud removed in the 2002 restoration (thirty triangular patches, sewn by nuns in 1534, as well as the Holland cloth, were removed) can be obtained, they can be cross-referenced with the 2015 DNA study on Human and Plant DNA. Any matches could be eliminated as modern contamination this would then give a good indication of pre-1534 origins. Results should be predictable. If after cross-examining the two and subtracting any repeats (indicating more recent contamination) all you have left is European DNA then it would suggest the Shrould had a European origin, but if all the remains are the DNA from the Middle East and with some European DNA then it is an indicator that it has a middle east origin. I suspect the Commission for the Conservation of the Shroud would be less protective of the patches and Holland cloth. Which may be an opportunity to add new data to the conversation.

[@stephenphillips4984]

Dating the cloth is irrelevant to the issue of ascertaining whether the Turin Shroud is that of Jesus. Even if it were established beyond question that the cloth is 2000 years old, the image on it could STILL have been created with the use of some old burial shroud brought back from the Holy Land by a pilgrim.

[@dougarmour6738]

@@stephenphillips4984 We will never know for 100% if the man in the shroud is Jesus, but if it is date to over 2000 years old their is still good evidence to suspect it would be Jesus. 1) The 1988 study determined that the blood stains were on the shroud before the image. The wounds are consistant with the wounds described in the gossples, most notably the crown of thorwns which was a unique torture to Jesus. The pollens samples confirmed that Paliurus spina-christi (aka christ thron) was on the shroud. 2) Early Icongraphy depicting Jesus espically in the Pantocrator style matchs the man in the shourd. 3) We also have the statments of Athanasius that mention and icon of Jesus take from Jerusiam befor the Roman Jewish war, "At that time even the icon with certain other ecclesiastical objects were moved and they today still remain in Syria. I possess this information as handed down to me from my migrating parents and by hereditary right. It is plain and certain why the icon of our holy Lord and Savior came from Judaea to Syria"

[@MENSA.lady2]

How many times does if have to be proved a fake. There are some out there will never accept the truth because it does not fit their cause.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

We might also ask how many times does it have to be proved authentic? There are some who will never accept the truth because it does not fit there philosophy.

[@HadassahDewhitt]

The blood evidence is against the rulers of this world. In the Highest Court, where the King is the Judge of all, He will do just as Yshua said in the parable of the vineyard. They tried to destroy it, but it was preserved for their judgment and our faith. The Father is near. Repent and keep His Commandments just as Yshua did. Do as He instructed and not what someone who claimed enlightenment and that we are free from His Law. Listening to a man will put us in the same situation as Genesis 3.

[@SamHollidayV]

Is measuring height in terms of heads normal?

[@tafazziReadChannelDescription]

Yeah illustrators do it quite often

[@SamHollidayV]

@@tafazziReadChannelDescription I think they do horses in “hands”

[@RealSeekers]

It's not a proper scientific measurement, but artists use it such as comic books, etc. Normal adults are about 7.5-8.5 heads tall normally and the Shroud Man fits into that range on the lower end when one does proper measurements using the head- David Faulk fudged his data to stretch the Shroud Man out to 9 heads which was not true at all- it's why even Shroud skeptic Hugh Farey called him out on it and provided proof Dr. Faulk messed up in my response show to Faulk's short video.

[@tafazziReadChannelDescription]

@@RealSeekers hey I found out about your channel from this comment and it's really cool! Subscribed!

[@RealSeekers]

@@tafazziReadChannelDescription Excellent and thanks so much- all I will say is that I've got plenty of detailed content on the Shroud if that is what you like, welcome to the Shroud Wars lol :)

[@yotamschmidt570]

Jesus took a screenshot

[@exerciserelax8719]

I think it needs more of a debate with sceptical experts. For me the fact that the type of cloth was common in Middle Ages Europe but not the ancient Holy Land, and that the carbon dating lined up exactly with the time of the first historical record of the shroud, requires strong counter-evidence to dismiss. The Medieval Repair hypothesis, proposed to account for the carbon dating findings, is just that, a hypothesis, with still no material evidence of a 1st-century origin. In addition, numerous artists and scientists (such as N.D. Wilson) have claimed to replicate the image, so it's hard to know who's right about whether it's possible to recreate. But even if we really didn't know how it was produced, that would just mean... we don't know. It wouldn't be evidence. There could very well be a medieval technique we haven't discovered yet. I do hope they continue studying the shroud and perhaps they will find evidence solidly connecting it to the first century!

[@beverlyhurd8556]

The Shroud image is so incredible that the burden of proof rests on those who think it is a forgery. STURP team spent over two years preparing a series of tests that would gather a vast amount of Shroud data in a relatively short period of time. STURP's primary goal was to determine the scientific properties of the image on the Shroud of Turin, and what might have caused it: After years of exhaustive study and evaluation of the data, STURP issued its Final Report in 1981: "We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is *not* the product of an artist."​ "The answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery." *No one has ever proven these 33 scientists and engineers wrong.* All were part of leading tech firms. Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Lockheed Corporation* U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories* Brooks Institute of Photography* University of Colorado* Oceanographic Services Inc.* Nuclear Technology Corporation* U.S. Air Force Academy* Jet Propulsion Laboratory* Sandia National Laboratory*, etc. The STRUP team included three Jewish members, one Mormon, one Evangelical, several Catholics, several Protestants and some avowed atheists and agnostics. Had religion ever been a criterion for membership, most of the STURP team members would never have agreed to participate. The notion that it is a forgery (a painting, other work of art) has been disproved so thoroughly and absolutely that it is permanently buried; they are based in part on the denial of empirical data.​ The scholarly consensus a mere 60 years ago deemed the Shroud a medieval fraud; the present evidence allows a firm archaeological judgement for authenticity.

[@kevinkelly2162]

I have always found it a very catholic miracle, ie totally pointless except to increase the superstition of believers. God created the heavens and the earth and set the stars in the sky and brought the ten plagues to Egypt and parted the red sea raised Jesus from the dead......and he also made an image on a piece of cloth. To me it does not fit......just like St Christopher carrying Jesus across the river and Mary appearing at wherever.

[@James-ms2mx]

@@kevinkelly2162 I read that a medieval priest said it was a fake

[@Idishrkdmd]

@@kevinkelly2162 reaffirming believers and assisting them in unique ways is not superstitious it's what a God would do for creation he loves it more speaks to the fact that while Apostolic churches have miracles, Protestants have to be cessationist because they experience none it more speaks about Gods interaction with the different denominations.

[@les2997]

I don't think you have a very good understanding of medieval art, science or even logic. With the exception of the Shroud of Turin, there is not a single piece of medieval art that we don't know how it was created. In some cases, we don't know who created the art or what it signifies, but in each and every case we know how it was created. The color depth discoloration on the Shroud of Turin is only 200-500 nanometers. This is much less than the linen fiber diameter of 10-20 micrometers and cannot be explained by medieval artistic techniques. This level of precision is difficult to explain using known medieval techniques. Even modern lasers are not capable of delivering micro burns this precise. Thus, the image could not be a painting, drawing or a bas-relief technique. Medieval artists did not have access to the advanced technological tools we have today for creating three-dimensional images on a two-dimensional surface, such as computer graphics or 3D modeling software.

[@trickjacko8482]

First question got this guy on the ropes. He needs to be more prepared for this kind of interactions

[@samueljennings4809]

Unpopular opinion here, as a Christian myself. I think that apologetics-wise, using the Shroud as a point in argument is a major mistake. I don’t think that you should be tying your argument for the veracity of the gospels and the resurrection to a controversial artifice like the Shroud. REGARDLESS of whether it’s true or not. You can be Christian convinced of the veracity of the gospel and still not believe the Shroud is genuine. Most shocking of all, you can believe that the Shroud is mysterious and unexplainable and still not be Christian. So tbh I see the increased focus on the Shroud as a waste of time regarding apologetics and it’s more than possible to make a solid case without an artifact that even if proved genuine is nothing more than a curiosity. You don’t want to tie your arguments or let them get weighed down by such an item of controversy that does nothin for building up godly love amongst brothers and sisters in Christ.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

The Shroud's miraculous images have convinced many doubters of the veracity of the Gospels. These images are the Sign of Jonah. See: "The Image on the Turin Shroud Is 'The Sign of Jonah' For Our Generation," by Rev. Larry Stalley, 2020 And: "The Enigma of the Sign of Jonah," BSTS Shroud Newsletter, Summer 2023, pg. 42-46.

[@dekr-ch5oy]

1:36:08 Praying for the idiots is indeed wise

[@JayApostolic]

1:25:00 what did I just hear😭

[@Daniel-tb5fr]

A wholesome interaction thats about to be ruined by showing the true colors here is your answer youre welcome

[@Charity-vm4bt]

​@@Daniel-tb5frIt is too bad the host did not edit it out. I will stop listening before that time stamp. Thanks for the warning.

[@Charity-vm4bt]

​@@Daniel-tb5frThanks for warning readers so we can stop listening before the time stamp. Too bad the host did not edit it out or end the video before posting it.

[@jaredbennett266]

I would hesitate to use the holy fire as a comparison or evidence. There’s a lot of evidence showing it’s not a miracle. Jimmy Akin did an episode on it and came to the conclusion that it is not miraculous.

[@adrianfaulkner1353]

Maybe it's kept away from more testing is because they know it's not real otherwise why wouldn't they allow better testing to be done, it makes no sense if it was real to keep under wraps no pun intended

[@beverlyhurd8556]

Who is it that 'knows' it's not real? Everyone that has intelligence as well as at least some common sense _knows_ that it's real.

[@adrianfaulkner1353]

@@beverlyhurd8556 I do believe it's real myself but I'm just saying if it could be proven to be real under scientific conditions then wouldn't this be another real strong piece of evidence, why do they keep it from testing?

[@beverlyhurd8556]

@@adrianfaulkner1353 Back when King Umberto owned the Shroud, he allowed the STURP team to spends six days and nights examining the shroud and that's when they were able to say with 100% confidence that the Shroud was not made by the hand of man. When the King died, he bequeath the Shroud to the living Pope (not the Catholic church) and it was the Pope that said no more testing would be allowed on the 2000 year old delicate cloth. And good for him for doing so.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

The Itailan State is the real owner of the Shroud. According to the Phillips/Rucker neutron absorption hypothesis, further testing will result in impossible future dates, up to 8500 A.D. Such a dramatic confirmation of the Shroud's miraculous nature might prompt the Turkish government to ask the Italian government for the return of their relic that was stolen in 1204 A.D. Maybe the Church just wants to let the sleeping dog lie and not stir up trouble.

[@ranchbarbie5915]

It can't be the covering of Jesus because, according to the Bible, He was covered by 2 separate cloths....one for His body and one for His face. John 20:7

[@Toothpirate1979]

You’re thinking of the Sudarium and the Shroud. The Sudarium was used to take the body off the cross in transport to the tomb

[@jcarh]

By the way they did find the head cover.

[@Fiona2254]

Yes. There is a sudarium, face cloth, too. And the blood stains match the ones on the shroud.

[@80okay]

That would be the Sudarium of Oviedo. The blood stains and the blood group (or so we're told) match with those on the Shroud of Turin.

[@ranchbarbie5915]

@@Toothpirate1979 John 19: 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes (plural...not cloth) with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. The practice of wrapping a dead body in strips of linen was customary in first century Judea. "strips"...not a solid cloth covering the whole body. And, In a well-attended press conference on October 13, Cardinal Ballestrero announced the official results, i.e. that radio-carbon testing dated the shroud to a date of 1260-1390 CE, with 95% confidence.

[@pdworld3421]

wouldn't Jesus been wearing a covering on his face under the shroud

[@beverlyhurd8556]

He was wearing a head cloth when brought into the tomb. It was then taken off of him, folded up and set aside. That was the last time he had it on. Today that cloth is in Spain where it is known as the Sudarium of Oviedo.

[@pdworld3421]

@@beverlyhurd8556 That would be unusual for the Jewish burial practices at the time

[@pdworld3421]

@@beverlyhurd8556 thats a question - not a statement. i left out the question mark

[@beverlyhurd8556]

@@pdworld3421 His face cloth had his blood and other bodily fluids on it. By Jewish law, it had to be buried with the body.

[@JohnCamacho]

The blood on the shroud refers to the Druze ethnicity which wasnt around in the 1st century

[@beverlyhurd8556]

What? Who told you that??

[@helensargentDNA]

I watched the programme where they DNA tested blood from the shroud. Yes it came out as from the Druze community. The DNA experts said it was an ancient DNA pre Jesus and people exist today with Druze DNA in Nazareth. They spoke to 2 present day Druze people and told them about the Results. The thing about the Druze community is traditionally they did not accept non Druze into their community so uniquely it kept that DNA line more purely Druze and identifiable in that regard.

[@beverlyhurd8556]

@@helensargentDNA What? What "programme" did you watch where they got DNA from the blood? When was this and who put it on?? I know for a fact that they have tried to get DNA from the blood on the Shroud and they were unable to due so due the fact that it was 2000 years old and too degraded. How pathetic that you feel that you have to make up an outrageous lie to try and make your previous comments seem valid.

[@sheilasladeholcomb]

How about the evidence that the person represented by the Shroud of Turin had leprosy. How would that affect the claims.

[@beverlyhurd8556]

What evidence?

[@yoshiperspectives4880]

The problem with the question of why the cloth was not mentioned by the Apostles or early Church seems to be quite grounded in ignorance to not how authentic the shroud was to the Apostles, but how authentic Yeshua and the Holy Spirit was to the Apostles. God was close to them and working with them, doing miracles and saving souls, filling people with the Holy Spirit and moving mightily. People were dreaming and seeing visions. So why would anyone care about the cloth? They were interacting with the real Yeshua. Not only this but it is written in the Torah not to bow down or worship ANY IMAGE and it was for this reason that no image was seen when God came down on Sinai. For he said, "lest the people make an image of me and worship it". The Jewish Apostles would have respected this commandment and on top of the fact of it being an unclean burial cloth they would have plenty reason to just store it away and not keep it as a matter of discussion. Only later when worship of idols infiltrated the Church would the shroud be seen as something to admire, which is essentially what worship is. It's admiration. And now thousands of years later there's mystery that surrounds the shroud making it intriguing, but back then as just the burial cloth that intrigue would not be there. Thus no reason to write about it.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

Jesus had enemies in Israel. If they had learned of the images of his dead body on the Shroud, they would had employed every means possible to seize and destroy it. That is why the Gospels do not mention the Shroud after the burial. The Shroud was spirited out of Israel to the city of Edessa which was an independent kingdom not under Roman authority. There it remained for 900 years as the Image of Edessa. Jesus covertly predicted the images of his dead body in Matthew 12 where he made a prophecy about the duration of his burial. See: "The Image on the Turin Shroud is 'The Sign of Jonah' For Our Generation!" by Rev. Larry Stalley, 2020 And: "The Enigma of the Sign of Jonah," BSTS Shroud Newsletter, Summer 2023.

[@yoshiperspectives4880]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 You're just quoting late Christian tradition. If I quote Jewish tradition and even site it does that make it fact? No. You shouldn't talk like this is all fact. The sign of Noah is most likely not referring to the shroud or any image. Noah was in the belly of the sea creature for three day and three nights. There was no image of Noah formed from this. The sign is that after three days and three nights he's still alive. There is no mention in Matthew 12 about a shroud or image at all, so not sure why that is in quotations. Siting a Rev. has no no meaning. They're just more words from a mere man. Ironically you probably don't even believe in the sign of Noah if you don't believe Yeshua was in the grave for an ACTUAL three days and three nights (Friday night to Sunday morning). That's not three days and three nights. It's one day and two nights.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

@@yoshiperspectives4880 The history of Thaddeus dates from early times. It is he who is recorded as taking the Shroud to Edessa. It is not a late tradition and is very well known in all Orthodox and Eastern Churches. In Matthew 12 Jesus promised a sign to some future generation which would be the confirmation of his more than 24 but less than 72 hour burial. The images on the Shroud confirm that Jesus' corpse was removed from burial in less than 72 hours. BTW, the phrase, "Three days and three nights," is a well known Hebraism which means any part of one day, the next day, and any part of the third day. Most languages have such phrases which have a known meaning and are not expected to be taken literally. How can the Sign of Jonah be "that after three days and three nights he's still alive?" In Mark 8 Jesus emphatically stated that no sign from heaven would be given to first century Israel. In Luke 11 Jesus said that the Sign of Jonah for Israel was his ministry. Your theology is not consistent.

[@yoshiperspectives4880]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 No, three days and three nights is not some sort of Hebraism to mean any part of three days. Wherever you heard that, It's wrong. On the contrary It's a specific way to make clear that you mean three full days. Why do you think Yeshua died on Friday? Because the testimony says he died right before Sabbath, right? Well the next day after Passover is actually a Sabbath of Unleavened Bread. Passover was on Wednesday in 31AD making the following Thursday a High Sabbath. Yeshua died that Wednesday evening and was buried right before the High Sabbath and remained there until right after the weekly Sabbath on Saturday. Which is exactly three days and three nights as Yeshua said. The very idea that Yeshua must have died on Friday because it was right before Sabbath comes from a fundamental ignorance of our Jewish culture and festivals. Along with thinking that three days and three nights is Hebraisn for a part of three days. It's not. That's just false. Matthew 12:39-40 [39]But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: [40]For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. You see where it says "FOR AS" in the beginning of verse 40? That means It's expounding on what verse 39 means. It specifically defines the sign of Jona as being in the grave for three days and three nights. Didn't you read it???

[@geordiewishart1683]

I fear it is useless to use an argument based on scripture with a Catholic. He is more concerned about idolatrous relic worship

[@tool_fighter]

People of Earth: turm off your computers automatic volume control . This is the simple solution to all of your video audio problems. You’re welcome

[@davethebrahman9870]

Some questions and objections: 1. How can your ‘expert’ both claim that pollen is not dispositive because it travels and also that it is evidence for the Shroud originating in Jerusalem? 2. Even if pollen could be localised to Jerusalem, how would that prove anything other than that the Shroud was once in Jerusalem? 3. What are the indicia of limestone solely from Jerusalem (hint: there aren’t any)? 4. What is the evidence for Carbon 14 dating being unreliable, and why is it accepted as evidence by every court in the developed world? 5. Why did all the C14 tests give mid-mediaeval dates, even if one accepts that they were in somehow unreliable? 6. We have literally millions of pages of historical documents from Europe, 1st to 13th century. How could even the most important secret be kept for so long? Is there another example of such a secret? Why isn’t the claim of identity with the Mandylion etc simply post hoc rationalisation? 7. Why is it that no one except those who already believe can see coins, titulus etc on the Shroud? Isn’t it just a Rorschach test? 8. If the Shroud is to be accepted as evidence, why is it that miracles such as carbon addition are required to explain away the observable facts?

[@InfoArtistJK]

Actually, you are misunderstanding the evidence. Keep trying.

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@InfoArtistJK Howso?

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 3. False. Travertine is formed in geothermal locations, none of which are reliably limited to a particular city.

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 6. False. Confluence of imagery is largely subjective, and in any case entirely explained by the Shroud being produced in accord with pre-existing stylistic patterns.

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 8. False. There is no mention of the Shroud before 1300. You are erroneously assuming that previous mentions of a shroud are identical with that of Turin.

[@ChuckNorrisnorris]

God took Moses body so he would not get worshipped. Why would He livea Turin?

[@danlopez.3592]

The simplest answer is magic? No no no that is never the simplest answer.

[@sabrinanascimento5248]

The Image was on the top layer of the Shroud.

[@Sweetheartseer]

10:45

[@pmajudge]

MR. BARRIE SCHORWZ DIED ??? WHEN ???? AAAAWWW!!! IF SO R.I.P. TO BARRIE SCHORWZ HE WAS A JEW ( His I.D. always promient in his talks ) !! DID HE CONVERT TO CHRISTAINTY ????? FROM, THE UNITED KINGDOM. (2024).

[@pmajudge]

😇😇😇😇💯💯💯👋👋👋👍👍✝✝✝✝✝💐💐💐🌹🌹🌹🌻🌻🌻. BELIEVE ! BELIEVE! ITS GOD'S CALLING CARD PEOPLE ! FROM , THE UNITED KINGDOM. (2024).

[@tonyr6365]

Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was born by the virgin Mary who conceived by God. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus raises the dead, casts out devils, and heals people. Jesus did no violence and no deception was found in His mouth. Jesus did no sins. Jesus was crucified and died for the sins of the world. Jesus's Blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Jesus was buried in a sepulchre. On the third day God resurrected Jesus from the dead to Life. Jesus left the tomb. Jesus was seen alive by Mary Magdalene and other women. Jesus was seen to be alive by Peter, the Twelve, over 500 brethren at once, James, all the apostles and Paul. Paul persecuted the church but became a christian when Jesus appeared and talked to Him. Jesus Christ is Lord. Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Jesus ascended to heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. Jesus will return to earth. Read the Bible, New Testament to know more.

[@AnonZero0]

*Whether this cloth is genuine, or a fraud--is irrelevant; the only thing which is relevant to genuine Biblical Christianity--is God's written word alone.* *Sola scriptura Sola fide.*

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

The Sign of Jonah is relevant.