The Skidding Aircraft Turn , why it can be dangerous in the pattern and result in a Stall/Spin

[@jimmydulin928]

Good job, Joe, with what can unfortunately happens when we think we have to pull on the stick in turns. We don't. Crop dusters and gunship pilots know that turn of any bank angle can be be made at 1 g simply by allowing the nose to go down as designed (dynamic neutral stability). The design of the airplane is to fly, not to stall. The airplane cannot stall unless the pilot or computer is pulling on the stick. No stall, no spin, no problem. Release back pressure in steep turns (actually any turn) in the pattern. Good job with the illustrations.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thank you!

[@philipmartin708]

An aircraft cannot make a turn without increasing its lift when it's banked. This is so basic.

[@MisterTechnologic]

@@philipmartin708 It can if you aren't maintaining altitude, which is what he is saying. If you allow the plane to drop you don't add any load factor and overload the wings, so you CAN in fact make a turn without increasing lift, you'll just lose altitude.

[@evgeniiaevgeniia1139]

Omg what. No back pressure in turns?

[@jimmydulin928]

@@evgeniiaevgeniia1139 What does the airplane want to do in any turn? It wants to lower its nose to maintain trimmed airspeed and not stall. If you are trimmed for Vy on takeoff and turn crosswind while pulling back on the yoke, the airspeed will decrease below Vy. Same on the turn to downwind. If we applied the principles in "Stick and Rudder" (the law of the roller coaster and what the airplane wants to do for instance) to ACS maneuvers, we would not try to maintain altitude. Rather we would allow the airplane to maintain airspeed and not stall. With fewer inadvertent stalls in the pattern, we would have fewer fatalities.

[@Newwarbirdflyer]

As someone who flys a fairly heavy wing loaded airplane, i 100% agree with a continuous base to final turn.

[@Bananasssssssss]

It just makes for such a smoother transition/approach

[@swimbikeruntoday]

Exactly. That's one way to solve the base to final turn issue... get rid of the base leg. Egg shaped patterns.

[@philipmartin708]

I think you meant to say "downwind to final turn."

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@philipmartin708 yeah, lol

[@jakemyers5585]

Another possible point to take note of is to keep your decent constant in the turn, and don’t subconsciously put in excessive back pressure. Keep That wing unloaded! Liking this little series on accelerated stalls and aoa related stuff, very educational!

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks! And yeah I should have made it more of a point to mention the constant descent. In my my head I know what I mean but then get dementia when the Camera is rolling, lol

[@jakemyers5585]

@@Bananasssssssss haha! I could never be as comfortable as you in front of a camera. That’s what we’re all here for!

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@jakemyers5585 my wife says I look miserable and have no personality and People won’t wanna watch 😂.

[@jakemyers5585]

@@Bananasssssssss well next time tell her 15,000 people don’t think so😂

[@Bananasssssssss]

@jakemyers5585 😂😂

[@TheSoaringChannel]

I love on the edge of stall+spin the entire time I'm soaring. The issue, as I've witnessed during soaring flight, seems to be the overbank caused by the inward rudder input. As you apply the inward (dirt side) rudder: you induce overbanking. You naturally will want to oppose the overbank with aileron. This causes the angle of attack of the inner wing to increase (increasing drag and increasing yaw rate) and the outer wing AOA to decrease (decreasing drag and increasing the yaw rate) - this increased yaw rate causes even more overbank. The pilot applies more aileron - and SNAP - around and over you go, before you can do a thing about it. I'll post a reply to my comment of a video that demonstrates this incredibly well. The only difference being the yaw string is used instead of a slip/skid ball. Having lived on the edge of stall+spin for hours on end of every flight I take has really brought an understanding to why it's so easy to do in the pattern. The key ingredient is to overstand that it doesn't happen because the pilots get slow. It's because they load the wing up with AOA turning final or turning back after an engine failure.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Well said

[@TheSoaringChannel]

​@@Bananassssssssshere's the video. I bet you'll like this dude. I wish I was this comfortable with ACTUALLY spinning at 2000' 😂 guys voice is so confident and calm that it chills me out while he's doing these demos. Step on the skyward rudder... No spinny spin. LoL kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2fLaJaOasmSgtksi=SoOqA3aYMtNn1Pl_

[@TheSoaringChannel]

​​@@Bananasssssssssone technique I teach students about the pattern is to pull their runway side (earth side) foot off the pedal a bit so they aren't tempted to use it in the pattern. If you gotta slip... That's fine once you're on final. They're not Bananassssssssssssssssssss - yet 🤪

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@TheSoaringChannel 😂😂😂

[@philipmartin708]

Doesn't your glide ratio go way down while flying on the edge of a stall? I understand the value of flying it on the edge of a stall while you're thermalling, but the entire time you're soaring?

[@billroberts9182]

Two rules have kept me alive: 1. Keep the ball centered except when performing an anti-spin maneuver (slip- but not a skid!) 2. Never do low altitude 360 degree turns (like looking at moose or sheep horns, etc.). Do a fly-by followed by a 180 turn referring to your instruments and attitude. The fly-by again. In Alaska, many experienced pilots have died from a so-called "moose stall".

[@Bananasssssssss]

I heard that term but never knew why they called it that! Now I do! Ha. Thank you!

[@SoloRenegade]

nothing wrong with 360 turns. 5deg bank 360 10deg bank 360 3deg bank 360 15deg bank 360 etc. speed and coordination matter too. but shallow 360 turns are so benign.

[@billroberts9182]

@@SoloRenegade Of course a 360 can be performed at low altitude- but it is a fact many very experienced pilots have died doing it, and another fact is if your attention is focused outside of the aircraft- staring at a set of horns- you can lose situational awareness and subconciously kick your rudder a bit to get the strut out of your view- boom you are along for the ride to a terminal event! Things are made worse if you are in the mtns/canyon where you lack a horizon . Easy to bled your airspeed off. At sufficient altitude- no problem.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@billroberts9182 you also can't get a pilot license or commercial license without doing it (maneuvering low level, doing turns). If you can't maintain control of your airplane, surrender your license. I'm a CFI, I don't need a lecture from you. I'm also an aerospace engineer and design airplanes.

[@billroberts9182]

@@SoloRenegade I doubt you do 360’s at LOW ALTITUDE! That is what can get you into trouble. If you read my post, I,m referring to low altitude 360’s. I know two very good cub pilots (in separate crashes) that died doing exactly that. One was looking at a walrus in the surf and one was apparently looking at some Dahl sheep. Another acquaintance was doing 360 over a sheep- he apparently hit his wake turbulence- partially stalled and clipped the top of some spruce trees. It was his idea about LOW ALTITUDE fly bys rather than 360’s- which I wholeheartedly embrace. You want to do LOW ALTITUDE 360’s? Just do it by yourself so you don’t kill an innocent!

[@joefinn1100]

Excellent description, analysis, and demonstration. Good reminder of the go-around option.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks Joe!

[@Coops777]

Thanks Joe. You contribute much to both the love and safety of aviation.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thanks! Appreciate that!

[@joelweyhe6801]

Just a really good, straight-forward explanation with great supporting graphics. I enjoy your videos. You make flying the J-3 seem more relaxing than flying my no-flap 150 HP Citabria. That bugger takes a bit of muscle.

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thank you!

[@mbrane]

Thanks for yet another insightful video!

[@JW-gb6hq]

Good insight on a very important phase of flight.

[@JonathanStCloud-yo5oq]

As someone who holds, airplane, helicopter and glider ratings, the best thing any pilot can do is get your glider rating. Then stay with the sport long enough to learn to fly the glider cross country. How can you really call yourself a pilot if you can’t fly an aircraft without an engine. 500 miles through the mountains You will learn how to read the Sky, the weather and how to use the free energy in the Sky. I used my glider skills all the time flying a CE340A and a helicopter. Yes you will be proficient at spin recovery before solo.

[@rapinncapin123]

Great video sir

[@Bananasssssssss]

Thank you!

[@jimmydulin928]

Joe it is obvious, in many responses to dynamic neural stability and what the airplane wants to do to prevent stall in turns, that most pilots are coming from high altitude orientation. Low altitude orientation is where horizontal space is as limited as vertical space and turns are to target and stall is generally fatal. I am old enough to remember when maintenance of altitude rather than airspeed become dogma. That was in the 60s when instrument flying became more popular and trainers got larger than 65 HP engines. The banked airplane will turn without pulling on the stick. In fact it was designed that way for safety to prevent stall. We have fewer incidents and accidents now, but the same number of stalls yearly. Why are we teaching muscle memory to stall?

[@peterthoshinsky6468]

Is the airspeed/pitot tube unreliable when it is on the "blanked" side of the aircraft?

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@peterthoshinsky6468 more so than “unblanked side” but both will be a little in accurate

[@thomasabramson100]

Thanks Joe funny how many people dont understand the "go around" is the best way to get another chance at a stabilized approach sure you've seen the you tube videos of some commercial and GA pilots who feel they jam the landing no matter if there's wind shear , turbulence or crosswinds

[@Bananasssssssss]

Yup, always much easier to just go around

[@nyboardsports]

Neat little software visualizations

[@zakhaselmo3741]

Good stuff.

[@johnmajane3731]

We used to intentionally stall in skidding turns. Fun going over the top

[@philipmartin708]

Going over the top from a skidding turn? I think not.

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@philipmartin708 that’s what happens when you stall in a skidding turn

[@johnmajane3731]

@@philipmartin708 for fun. Great in a champ.

[@philipmartin708]

Well this statement contradicts everything you said and showed in the video. A plane will break over the top from a slipping turn, not a skidded turn. @@Bananasssssssss

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@philipmartin708 I feel like you’re just messing with me now, lol. Nothing happens when you stall in a slip, lol. It’s almost exactly like stalling straight and level

[@yclept9]

Why would there be any temptation to a skidding turn in the first place? In a turn, neutral rudder and keep the ball in the center with the aileron (the ball moves the same direction as the aileron). In essence you're controlling the differential drag of the two wings to as to center the ball. Probably you'll wind up holding slightly top stick as the outer wing is going faster than the inner wing so it needs its lift reduced for balance.

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@yclept9 the temptation comes from overshooting final and trying to get back on centerline

[@my_models_oficial]

Happened to us a few weeks back in a172... ...Went around immediately

[@Bananasssssssss]

Best way to deal with it 👍🏻

[@philipmartin708]

In a skidding turn the bottom wing DOES NOT have an increased AOA compared to the top wing. It has less AOA than the top wing. That's why you have to hold some outside aileron to keep it from banking even more.

[@Bananasssssssss]

This is not correct, on a skidding turn (or in a skidding turn I should say) the bottom, inside wing has a greater AOA than the top one. The overbanking tendency is because outer wing is traveling faster.

[@philipmartin708]

Wanna bet? Look at the illustration on page 126 of STICK and RUDDER. @@Bananasssssssss

[@Bananasssssssss]

@@philipmartin708 give me until tomorrow, lol. I’ll look but books in the hangar.

[@philipmartin708]

@@Bananasssssssss Well, here it is, tomorrow night. Crickets.

[@Bananasssssssss]

@philipmartin708 I turned to page 126, you’re still incorrect lol

[@gonflying]

If you maintain airspeed and coordination you can bank the airplane as steep as you want in the pattern. Look at crop dusters, there's nothing special about the airplane but the pilot maintains airspeed and coordination. THE AIRPLANE DOESN'T KNOW HOW HIGH IT IS! I teach Spins every day and I emphasize how to bank the aircraft steep in the pattern by carrying enough airspeed, 1.5 × stall speed in the base to final and keeping the ball centered.

[@stevep4131]

I've never understood why squared off turns in circuits are the accepted "normal". They look neater on diagrams is about the only thing going for them. Continuous rounded turns have to be safer. Circuits should be ovals rather than rectangles.

[@whoanelly737-8]

Stay coordinated. Slips are okay when needed. Skids are a no-no.

[@seamoreplant]

At first I thought this was an AI rendering because I don’t think I have ever seen an airplane land like that!