The Slow Downfall of Jim Halpert - The Office

[@captainmidnight]

What's your take on Jim? Love, hate him, and do you think he changed through the years? The first 100 people who click on the link will get 25% OFF Fabulous Premium: thefab.co/captainmidnight

[@interstellarsurfer]

Never liked him - he only got more insufferable with each season. Jim is like a Mary Sue for all Boomer-kind. All he has to do is clock in, and keep on winning, no matter how much he deserves to fail.

[@THESCUMMBAR]

You touched on the main difference between US and UK comedy. I'm not sure who to attribute this quote to, but you'll find a lot of variations of it: "British humour is when the main character is a joke. American humour is when the main character says a joke."

[@wookie5478]

I liked the moments when his character gets mad or crazy because normally he's layed back so it's fun when he isn't "the chilled guy".

[@wookie5478]

@@THESCUMMBAR you just ended a never ending debate

[@undefined7141]

Snowflakes have started watching the office; hence, they post their thoughts.

[@prettycheep]

Andy had such a weird character arc. He started off so bad, but then started going to anger management, we saw his rosebud and honestly he really grew on me. Then the writers went nah and threw his character in the gutter again

[@DrunkenSlob]

People like that don’t ever fully change so it made sense

[@anesu846]

Him and Nelly made me stop watching for a good amount of time I hated them so much

[@michaelmackenzie3114]

@@anesu846 facts bro I found them so annoying!

[@sanic1085]

Fun fact: Andy was never good

[@justanothermortal1373]

I hate that they ruined him

[@goodmusicpodcast7368]

What I liked about Jim becoming a boss was that we realized how hypocritical he was, thinking that being a good boss is easy, and realizing how easy it is to become like Michael. It’s a shame they didn’t explore it further

[@JimHalpertFromTheOffice]

I agree.

[@asiapedzich8214]

I wouldn't call this hypocrisy - just learning and realizing, how little he knew about life. Quite common feature for almost every 20 y.o. ;-)

[@user-ct1md9lw9d]

The purpose of this arc is to show how good of a boss Michael is.

[@jake51479]

I mean thats not really hypocrisy, he was just wrong

[@juliannino6743]

@@user-ct1md9lw9d Michael's not a good boss, wtf

[@tysonasaurus6392]

I love Jim but I also love the episodes where the pranks are flipped on him or when Idris Elba's character just doesn't like him and Jim becomes obsessed with being liked by him

[@CinnamonGrrlErin1]

Me too, I'm glad they had those moments in there to take Jim down a peg

[@k.-flynn]

the Charles Miner arc was so weird, bc in a normal office, Jim would be a failure for his inability to get over his very average, yet not depressing life. He's got it pretty good but acts like boredom is a horrible fate. Then Charles shows up as a flawed corporate boss and Jim gets a taste of what a shitty job would really be.

[@wvu05]

Not a Jim fan, but the Charles Miner arc made me sympathize with Jim at the company picnic, which made me hate Charles even more.

[@GetOverHer3]

Idris Elba's character almost made me stop watching LOL I dont why this show sometimes is obsessed with removing all the fun in order to look realistic, like that abominable "Did I stutter' episode

[@TheSuperNats]

I love those episodes. It shows how in some ways Jim is similar to Michael. He loves being liked and breaks down when it doesn’t happen.

[@Lauren_3000]

I feel like a big part of this is that most British sitcoms tend to end in their prime or close to it. There's usually less episodes in a season and way less seasons. It gives them room to maintain the original concept and explore the comedy in a mundane setting. American shows by comparison tend to have way more episodes per season, and drag on way beyond their prime. Meaning that it essentially forces writers to keep making things more ludicrous and cartoonish because they constantly need to be 'upping' the last season.

[@One.Zero.One101]

It's basically Business Decision beating out Creative Decision. British shows for the most part know when to end it. American shows are pushed to be 10 seasons even if the writer has ran out of ideas.

[@luichinplaystation610]

Nailed it, perfect

[@saschaquinn2486]

Very much agree given how for example the entire British office is half the length of a single US office season(-season 1) . Although I would point out that a lot of great US shows reach like the US Office reach their peak in their 3-4-5th season. So I think some sort of balance between the two is best

[@diegosotomiranda4107]

Totally, seing the increase of slapsticl humour was a clear sign of that "american way" of beating a good show to dead, almost every succesfull sitcom from there suffered the same problem at some point, Friends, The Office, Community, the Big Bang theory, Two and a half men, etc

[@SamuelMills-ez4jo]

Besides michael the British office still garbage

[@SpaceFluffDW]

The thing I like about the office is that they didn’t make Jim a stereotypical Asian guy.

[@jackseaton7486]

Hats off to the writers for not seeing race

[@Devon.with.an.i]

Huh?

[@lachlanfarthing4009]

@@Devon.with.an.i there was an episode where jim got an Asian guy to pretend to be him as a prank

[@kanha2237]

@@lachlanfarthing4009 what do u mean pretend he’s asian

[@LarsJulian]

@@lachlanfarthing4009 huh what are you talking about, Jim is asian

[@powerbannk7719]

Jim is Jerry from "Tom and Jerry" Most of the times you're ok with what he does because Tom deserves it, but sometimes he is somewhat of a jerk.

[@angusmarch1066]

Considering that Tom's main goal is always to presumably kill and devour Jerry, I dont think there can ever be an instance where Jerry is in the wrong for how he trolls Tom.

[@powerbannk7719]

@@angusmarch1066 because you used expressions like "always" and "ever", I just need one case to prove you wrong :) I'll actually give you two: two episodes about music concerts (one with a piano and another one with an orchestra). Tom is just doing whatever he is doing on his own, and Jerry just has to come out to be on the spotlight too and ruin Tom's night

[@angusmarch1066]

@@powerbannk7719 lmao fair enough thats a dick move, but once again Tom is an *sshole who tries to eat Jerry, so if Jerry wants to come out and do a little trolling, and clown on Tom I dont think its too bad.

[@zmovies7991]

@@angusmarch1066 You do realize that Tom's only purpose for being in the house was to catch mice right? I'm not sure if you realize this but humans regard mice as vermin, and Jerry was always unwanted by the humans in the house.

[@sunnylin2279]

Lol Tom were never actually trying to eat Jerry. There were a few episodes when he was so upset because he thought he actually killed him.

[@thwipkid]

I really don’t understand why they didn’t follow through with the idea of Jim eventually reluctantly taking up higher positions leading to manager. The show too often compares him to Michael and the idea of how the job slowly becomes more and more meaningful to him. I think it was the biggest missed opportunity and seeing Jim manage the office in a unique way, still learning, but unfortunately they gave it to Andy to recreate the Michael character like boss.

[@primmslim3802]

I'd also add that they selected Andy because Ed Helms became something of a "big name" because of the hangover movies, so I think he was chosen just based on the thought of atracting more viewers with a movie star as the lead

[@puxtbuck6731]

@@primmslim3802 Andy was such an annoying character later on. One of the worst parts of the show at that point

[@idealbeing3494]

It wouldn't work. Making Jim manager, the boss, would completely change the dynamic his character has with Pam and Dwight. In an earlier episode when Jim tried to combine the birthdays, it shows how Jim would be if he was manager. Andy was the natural choice because he is the "straight man" of the show, and therefore easier to evolve

[@puxtbuck6731]

@@idealbeing3494 Idk if Andy was the straight man of the show. Andy’s character is all over the place over the seasons.

[@primmslim3802]

@@puxtbuck6731 I agree, most of his relationship with Erin, him going on the boat trip and basically his final arc where just horribly made, probably some executives forced the writers to put the character on the spotlight, but they didn't know what to do with him, and I don't blame them tbh.

[@danielribastandeitnik9550]

The problem with Jim, and many other characters of the show and other shows, is that his arc just ended when he got Pam and no new arc was properly given to him. So in many seasons we just saw him 'live his life' with almost no conflict. What keep characters interesting are there development arcs, if the writer kills the arc by solving it you practically killed the character. It is not wrong to conclude arcs, but either you gently remove the character from the story and let him live happily ever after or give him a new arc.

[@One.Zero.One101]

Yeah that's the feeling I got in the later seasons. The characters are just hanging around with no arc. They played musical chairs to shift the characters around, but that's just a quick fix, you can't rely on that too heavily which they did.

[@Mike90317]

Yeap, they could have been the happy married couple of the office, and other characters would have received proper arcs.

[@justjoannak]

*100% THIS!*

[@SupHapCak]

It's supposed to be a reflection/parody of real life. Obviously the struggles I face to clean my room every day are not a giant insurmountable or interesting obstacle, and neither is the average Joe's life. They aren't going to have Jim fight a dragon in a show where they work at a paper company. I'm also wondering what challenges were so much tougher for other characters to work through than Jim's challenges? Like who didn't have a "super easy" arc just handed to them?

[@memeboi6017]

There was a real new arc to give him, attempting to break free of Dunder Mifflin, and really struggling to make it work. I wish we had a hypothetical episode in a hypothetical season nine, where Jim just kind of breaks down, after leaving Dunder Mifflin, and being unable to really go anywhere. Either with him feeling completely trapped by the almighty white collar, or with him being unable to find work, breaking due to feeling as if he can’t support his family. At that point you would have Jim somehow earn his happy ending, a family life with Pam, freed of his office space prison.

[@dingusrevolver]

"The Office transformed itself into a show about cartoonish best buddies who just happened to work at a paper company." You nailed it. The ending seasons of this show completely contradict the entire purpose of The Office. Initially, the point was that, at best, the office can just happen to be the place where you meet ONE person who means the world to you. In the end...the office was the place where your entire life happened. The office was everything. There were a few times they did well to subvert this, i.e. Jim and Pam choosing completely random and previously unseen characters for their child's godfather instead of Michael. But the overall storylines still implied that all of these people's lives revolved around the office and they were absolutely fine with it. It's really odd.

[@alejandrop.s.3942]

I saw an open criticising towards American (capitalist in general) job market. For instance, when Stamford branch closes , the former black inmate (whose name I don't remember) makes them realise that there're better opportunities in jail than working. The whole Pam attempt to become an artist is basically the effort of somebody who felt that she's wasting her life. Moreover, even in the pilot Jim implies that the job is worthless, but in the end all of them "waste" their lives for a salary. I think The Office is a comedy first, and a tale about how mediocrity and settle for something can ruin even talented people. If you ask me, I think that the crutial point for Jim is "choosing" amongst Karen and Pam: Karen wanted to make Jim reach his whole potential, improving him, promoting...but he ended with the "average", easy-going girl. His attempt to make a sports startup is his desperate late effort to get out of the mediocrity and routine.

[@bitchface235]

@@alejandrop.s.3942 and he basically has to turn his back on his wife and almost loses his marriage because of it. because she is fine with staying in the same town and settling in

[@erinstanger416]

Karen wanting Jim to go after the job at corporate was more about her desperation to get Jim away from Pam, because Karen knew that P&J had feelings for each other. It was more pathetic than ambition.

[@erinstanger416]

Jim wanting the sports jobs was about ego. He saw how Roy turned his life and as doing well with his career. Jim always looked down on Roy, so Jim went for the sports job, and put Pam and their kids on the back burner.

[@hiimhunter7649]

I think most workplace comedy shows kinda fall into this category they eventually if running long enough life is just their workplace and they date characters who work there have the occasional out of work episodes (which always tend to be the best ones i think) then go back and if they date anyone who isn't from their work you don't see them again or if you do it's when the relationship is over it's a weird formula it works and doesn't at the same time

[@jonvthvnx5729]

Eh, I feel like this take brushes over the inherent goodness of the character that they continue to maintain. Moments like Jim getting Darrel aboard the new business, warning Dwight of Robert California’s intentions regarding the Sabre job, trying to get the office to take it easy on Nelly when he begins to sympathize with her, and he generally develops more of a friendship with Dwight. I think they still did enough to keep the character likable, and he never veered too far into smug or mean.

[@danielebowman]

True. Jim was always a good guy. The criticisms were more due to the show's success influencing the plots, hence why it became more silly and Jim and Pam were almost side-lined form the comedy near the end.

[@bakes1324]

Ya this is definitely his worst analysis video. I think he’s seeing things that aren’t really there by reading to far into it.

[@markekar6021]

jim plots a lot and just about everything he does is based off a plan, not some kind of impulsive behavior (generally). i wouldnt put it past him to do some of these things with unsavory intentions, which seems to be pretty common throughout the seasons.

[@samanthaflorence733]

To add, jim was also the only person in the office stood up for andy against nelly when she tried to steal his job. While others (even robert) somehow shifted into supporting her, jim never craved and stood his ground because he knew it was wrong. Jesus, even Dwight felt for Nelly's seduction. Mind you that Jim did jit not because he was close/best friend with Andy, he just knew it was wrong and such an awful thing to do to andy.

[@Samstar369]

@@markekar6021 When he plans, that is when he is at his best, like the pranks and office Olympics, as well as the wedding, when he makes actual sales passionately, and even for his friend, Dwight

[@WillowJordan1979]

I think it's partially an issue with Dwight/Gareth. In the original show, Gareth is a very insecure guy who seeks the approval of guys like David and Finchy. He can be very annoying, pedantic and literal, which makes him a prime target for pranks. Dwight has some similarities, but also some key differences. He's more unflappable. He comes from a different upbringing and has a lot of confidence in some things, even if he seeks approval from Michael and other managers. In his eyes, he's superior to Jim. So while Jim's pranks are sometimes meaner than Tim's, Dwight's reaction will be milder than Gareth's. His belief in himself is harder to shake. I liked the episode where Jim had to confront all the pranks he did over the years, and he actually felt guilty for some of it and bought Dwight a gift, which Dwight promptly declined.

[@biospark4758]

Plus, in the later seasons, Dwight pretty much outgrows Michael. He tries to undercut him, talks back to him, and even becomes more confident in general (that whole Isabel thing was so out of character).

[@chachwa9970]

They also change Dwight at some point in the show and change him from a mildly smart guy that acts dumb to a pretty awesome like mega human

[@WillowJordan1979]

@@biospark4758 That also happens with Gareth in the Christmas special, but I think it's implied he's still insecure at his core, he's just using his new status as boss to make up for it.

[@Lollipop.er42]

what ep was that

[@WillowJordan1979]

@@Lollipop.er42 Season 2 ep 21, "Conflict Resolution"

[@DeanPelton98]

I think Pam has received more hate than Jim over the past few years. Both I think are a product of the same thing that hurted the show in general, not ending it when they should've.

[@wvu05]

Pam hate is largely unfair. While season nine Jim was _awful,_ while Michael was there, Jim could still be pretty bad.

[@ernestoagapitogarcesconyad1710]

99% of pam hate feels like misogyny to me. if you don't think she's funny or w/e that's subjective, but honestly people fr be calling her a b*tch for having feelings

[@g00bers24]

@@ernestoagapitogarcesconyad1710 Cringe. Misogyny hasn't existed since 1969, sweetheart.

[@ernestoagapitogarcesconyad1710]

@@g00bers24 1. you're tragically naïve 2. cringe culture is dead 3. don't call me sweetheart

[@londonworkman7617]

@@ernestoagapitogarcesconyad1710 calling out someone for letting their feelings control them is valid critique

[@Vanished_Mostly]

I'm sure someone else has already said this, but my favorite moment in the show was when Dwight was trying to force Michael's hand in transferring Jim (on KZbin as "Dwight's Complaints Against Jim"). As all of his pranks over the years are being listed out, he gets less proud and seemingly more ashamed with each one as (I think) he realizes he's not only been wasting his time, but wasting it harassing a coworker. I thought it was a great moment of introspection for him, and I was disappointed that it seemed to - if I remember correctly - never spark any change in him. But Jim's pranks against Dwight are part of the show's backbone, so I get it.

[@DodaGarcia]

It did spark a significant change - that realization was a significant component of what drove Jim to transfer to Scranton. Of course a lot of it was also related to wanting a break from Pam and the move didn't by itself make him more ambitious, which can feel disappointing to those of us rooting for the character. But I think it's a pretty realistic depiction of how people are in real life, as we we often have these massive epiphanies and make huge changes thinking they're going to solve our problems but then slowly return to our previous ways.

[@ajspringer]

Maybe I'm misremembering parts of the show in thinking this, but it does feel like Jim mellows out on pranking Dwight as a way to deal with his annoying habits and it becomes more friendly for the most part after he returns from his transfer. I think they warm to and learn to respect each other after the break, and it slowly becomes a friendship as the show progresses. Even Dwight's efforts to have him fired as co-manager seem softer than they would have been before, but that could be more related to Dwight softening in general by that point in the show.

[@BigHeisenberg]

The end of season 9 did the literal perfect thing with Jim. I at first thought the writers somehow didn’t even realize how dislikable they were making Jim, but they were actually really self aware with his character. Towards the end of season nine Jim finally remembers why he loves Pam so much. He finally realizes that he needs to be close to her and his job in Philly just isn’t working out. You finally see that huge spark of love between Jim and Pam that we saw in the first few seasons which was a really awesome thing. Not only is his arc with Pam amazing, but his arc with Dwight was incredible too. Jim continued to make snarky comments and responses towards Dwight to still fit his character, but rather than putting Dwight down, those comments lifted him up. Jim becoming “assistant to the regional manager” was also an amazing callback to Dwight’s prior role with Michael. It kind of shows that now rather than Dwight being the guy who looks up to Michael, Jim is the guy who looks up to Dwight. Jim really showed how much he cared about Dwight and how the pranks he pulled on Dwight were no longer making him a likeable guy. This is why Jim stopped pulling such pranks on Dwight especially after the snowball prank Dwight pulled on Jim which showed Jim how much of an asshole he was being towards Dwight. And finally the surprises Jim made for Dwight at his wedding were truly an homage of his care for Dwight. I was worried with the direction Jim was going but the writers somehow recovered him and made him even more likable than before in my opinion

[@AndreRodi]

I think people are just dumb and judge normal, realistic characters more harshly, Dwight, Michael and Andy for example are goofy assholes like 80 percent of the time, yet in the 20 percent of times they're nice people start drooling over them, yet characters who are decent people almost all the time like Jim, whenever they have one mean action you get a ton of hot takes saying they are actually awful and toxic or whatever buzzwords the internet is into at that moment.

[@FebreGundam]

On point!

[@TheMusicalElitist]

I'd love to take you seriously, but seeing as you can't type, I'll ignore your pointless comment.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

@@TheMusicalElitist what an idiotic way of saying “i have no counterpoint”

[@FredMcgiggleSnuff]

Facts

[@narutomax1101]

Dude, you read my mind. These people just love to hate on Jim(and Pam), while completely ignoring all the fucked up things Dwight did.

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

No, I was right there laughing at Andy's wall hole. Let's not downplay how much of a slimy worm early Andy was. He was a suck up and was conspiring to take down Dwight and Jim. Needed to be knocked down a peg or two or five. Someone's already said that Jim is the Jerry Mouse of this series, so I won't go too into it. I will say that I liked the times during the Boss Jim days when Dwight became the Jerry Mouse.

[@harrydemakes8456]

Agree. I thought he was doing that for Dwight too

[@toxiclooroll]

I agree. This video just gets it wrong, as it’s now trendy and cool to hate on jim. The show does a good job at making sure Jim’s pranks are fair relative to Dwight being annoying. Michael is also an idiot. He might be nice, but he’s still an idiot. With a boss like that do what you want

[@EM-wo6wf]

That’s so weirdly true

[@tomasruckett]

I had a different take on the Andy phone prank. I think it was meant to show how Jim had gotten so used to his relationship with Dwight and the reactions he'd get that he failed to recognize that Andy would respond differently. You can see it in Jim's face: he's legitimately uncomfortable with Andy's outburst because he expected Dwight's self-assured antics. While Jim is probably glad that Andy has to leave the office, he also realizes that Dwight makes his life more enjoyable and fulfilling by serving as an unwitting and interesting antagonist.

[@saskia9720]

I agree that Andy wasn't that likable at the time of this prank, but I think what Jim did accidentally ended up being a step too far. Andy reacted differently than Dwight would, and it made Jim uncomfortable because he knew it stepped over the line. If you look at it from the "annoying person gets annoyed" perspective, what Jim did was funny. But if you see it from the more real "annoying someone with clear anger issues to the point of mental breakdown and self harm", then you can see why Jim laughing at his prank feels rude and insensitive.

[@Thisdracoundefeated]

I like that Jim actually did care about Dwight and his pranks didn't always come from a fully malicious standpoint. The episode where he consoles Dwight when he is upset about losing Angela was actually rly wholesome and made me see him differently.

[@sahmoo]

or when he got a present for dwight after roy attacked him

[@bokonoo77]

few pranks? good enough constant pranks now that is fatigue

[@skycycle3395]

​@@bokonoo77office at a paper company is one of the most boring jobs ever i wouldnt mind getting pranked everyday if it meant something new happened

[@lordhawkridge4116]

When Dwight looks up to hug Jim, but doesn't realise Jim has walked off. It always breaks me.

[@MurphyMosby]

The problem is that in the first seasons Jim was so charming and trying as hard as he could to make Pam find him funny and dorky. Mainly by pranking Dwight. His constant frustration of not being with her and losing her to Roy over and over again felt so real. But as soon as he finally got together with Pam all of that ended. He stopped putting in an effort to make Pam laugh. Dwight didn't really care about his pranks anymore. So what remained was him being kind of boring and lifeless.

[@SeaSerpentLevi]

as someone says here in the comments, it becomes tom and jerry haha the guy in the video nails it: The show sells us this fairy tale relationship, and its great, but at some point the happy ending already happened and yet we're still here so.. what now. At that point i was already happy with jim and pam and was not caring at them anymore, because they had already become an average romantic movie couple so there was nothing to expect of them, the only issue being... they are quite essential characters with lots of screen time and at some point, besides they being a cute couple and i liking their looks, their relationship was really not interesting to follow. That affair with the mic guy arc i couldnt stop eyeball rolling :~

[@SeaSerpentLevi]

So that's why Jim and Dwight's bromance became my new favourite couple after that haha and they are probably indeed the only good couple that happens after Michael marries now that i think about it :o I mean i WAS happy for Dwight and angela's arc end and i cried, but when i think about it i was just happy for Dwight and couldn't care less for angela lol

[@One.Zero.One101]

I agree. It happens so often. When the "Will They Won't They" arc finishes, there's not much else to do. It happened with Chandler and Monica, Howard and Bernadette. Their identity becomes "The Married Couple" and they don't do much individually until the show ends.

[@UriosEditz]

@@One.Zero.One101 not agree with Monica and Chandler

[@samleembardo6202]

Dwight really did care about the snowball prank..

[@jaylodotcom]

I actually liked what they done with Jim, one of the only characters they got right most of the way through. He started of as a type of cool guy at the start that was basically young but got away with slacking off cause he was very good. His response to Dwight and Michael was down to him being a type of character just out of college or something. By the end he had matured and it was very realistic to how he matured into a husband and father then they basically wrote him to be successful after Dunder mifflin

[@slaybomb96]

Yeah for real... In the final seasons they do a throw back to the very first season when Jim first mentions creating a startup to Daryl and Daryl says something along the lines of "it seems like the bigger role I get at this company the more dumber it gets". This was when Andy was manager and promoted Daryl. That was sort of theme for a few characters through out the show and they never really gave up on it. Jim had the most progression throughout the show and people definitely downplay it because they want to get their "opinion" out there even though it might be flawed.

[@Juanirva]

That kind of people is very unlikeable

[@Fiatbob]

I agree Jim is a likable character, people just like to bandwagon…

[@CheerfullyCynical829]

He's a tall, athletic, good looking guy who is effortlessly charming to women. I think the people who hate him, call him "a dick", call him "the worst", etc. are simply jealous that they are shy, nerdy and socially awkward by nature, and it's too hard to change, even though they'd really like to.

[@theisgood0]

Jim becomes the most boring character.

[@Cyberslum1]

these are all great points! however, my issues with Jim, was specifically in the earlier seasons, when people in the office, men and women, would pick on pam. sometimes they would say the most awful shit and he would just sit there saying nothing. I get to an extent that he didn't want to feel like her "protector" and she can stand up for herself, but sometimes it doesnt hurt to stand up for your partner lol

[@user-sx6rm9uu7q]

Yep. Or when shet would get real he couldnt own it which i hated the most.

[@bananabrain2996]

But at that point it wasnt his partner. Interestingly this was something I really liked about the show because for me it captured how it felt being a woman in a work place

[@chrisgrudge6964]

How was she his partner? She was engaged to Roy

[@rosabellebelieve7762]

he probably didnt want to raise suspicion that he liked her or it could be taken as him making a move on an engaged woman

[@rightweaponry908]

They were best friends and he still could have stood up for her, there are soo many points in the show where he literally makes things super awkward because he refuses to be direct or set any clear boundaries. He even tried to leave Pam at the dinner party alone because he felt uncomfortable, knowing full well she felt just as uncomfortable but he felt leaving her there alone was fine as long as he could get away. When he accidentally see's Karen and doesn't apologize or take any responsibility for causing a scene and embarrassing her. He probably apologizes 3 times the entire show. It's just clear he isnt as nice as he thinks he is.

[@BenHeckHacks]

Jim would be an awful co-worker. He's super passive and never stands up for anything. My favorite moment of the entire series is when Michael yells at him in the "Murder Mystery" episode :)

[@edwardcraig3704]

Another great example of that is when late-season Ryan actually calls him out.

[@tyra6012]

He doesn't even stand up for his wife when his coworkers mistreat her....

[@W3RNL33]

yes, he would. in the koi pond episode shows everything I dislike about his character.

[@howtoliveonearthYT]

I don't even understand how he becomes a manager. He has no rapport with anyone in the office except Pam. AND he is lazy.

[@tyra6012]

@@howtoliveonearthYT if I were Dwight and he became manager over me I would have reported him to corporate for creating a hostile work environment for me

[@Dr0swald]

The neater Jim’s hair gets the less likeable he gets…

[@kasbt]

Like Mike from Suits.

[@Blades500]

Like a reverse John (if anyone here understands this reference you're the best)

[@randalljones8708]

@@JimHalpertFromTheOffice you might have forgotten, but it was only a wig for a few episodes in one season, I believe.

[@anikasmith3024]

@@randalljones8708 yeah

[@szymonpianka5452]

True

[@cormac3981]

“But a job is a job. So they show up everyday and take the small amounts of humanity and real connection that they can get”. That really hit me dude

[@gelpy27]

The show wouldve died if they went with this direction. Imagine how depressing and how limited the show would be

[@paintbrush3753]

I literally started reading this as soon as he said it in the video.

[@One.Zero.One101]

@@gelpy27 They DID go with that direction. That's how the show started and gained a cult following. They transformed from mockumentary to sitcom in the next seasons.

[@anonony9081]

I think they wanted to make Jim and Pam go from the beloved, fun couple to the boring parents who are obsessed with their kid and their little inside jokes that no one else gets or cares about. Pretty typical for people in real life. They have their kid and suddenly everything is about that and they're not the same anymore. The inside joke they kept sharing with each other after their honeymoon was an in your face way of showing this. They thought they were being so fun and cute but everyone around them including the viewer got nauseous seeing them act like that

[@steveburke7675]

For me the best part of the US show was during the Jim/Pam/Roy love triangle. When Jim "got" Pam it became luke warm. When Jim married Pam and had a kid it became an insufferable bore.

[@luichinplaystation610]

And....then......Pam has a 2nd child

[@abraham2172]

Parents caring more about their kid than anything else is exactly how it should be.

[@desmondcoppin591]

@@abraham2172Yes, nobody was saying they shouldn’t.

[@memeboi6017]

@@luichinplaystation610that was actually written in to coincide with Jenna Fischer’s (Pam’s actress) pregnancy

[@azraelknightquest5754]

With respect, the change in the series attitude is appropriate. Life changes and people change. Jim had changed, Pam had changed and the Office had changed. That "lesser" self was the end of youth and the beginning of maturity. You make sacrifices and changes to yourself as you get older. This was correct. The characters ended different people (except for Creeds crazy self) because we all end up that way throughout time. The Office ended because the office changed, as workplaces often do change or end. It was true to itself, right to the end.

[@clockworkdeity]

I always thought they did Andy more of a disservice than Jim.

[@iambuhlockay8007]

True. I felt Jim stayed generally like-able throughout the show (though he had his moments of being kind of a jerk) but they royally fucked up Andy. I’ve scarcely seen any character regress as much as he did.

[@livirus3826]

@@iambuhlockay8007 what about Jaime Lannister?

[@iambuhlockay8007]

@@livirus3826 I don’t know who that is.

[@livirus3826]

@@iambuhlockay8007 he was character on Game of Thrones

[@iambuhlockay8007]

@@livirus3826 I actually haven’t seen that show.

[@ManSeekingMeaning]

Feel like you glossed over a lot of the factors that Jim (even in the latter, weaker seasons) possessed in his character. He is a flawed, sometimes petty, but often kind and compassionate guy who also wants to stay out of a lot of the more mundane drama in the office. He’s never a full on jerk and he’s rarely a saint.

[@freddyfish835]

I'm only human

[@tonuahmed4227]

agreed

[@justinblakeney3466]

I think you're understating Andy's negative qualities prior to the wall-punch. He was ruthlessly trying to get Dwight fired (although Dwight arguably should have been fired many times) and gunning for Jim's position as Michael's No. 2. As for Dwight, they never quite committed to redeeming him until the last few episodes. He still does something awful in every season despite his gradual character development.

[@Eugene_Black]

Is it bad to want to be Michael's No. 2.

[@justinblakeney3466]

@@Eugene_Black When you're already part of the hottest ivy-league A Cappella group Here Comes Treble, definitely.

[@smmhh8646]

@@justinblakeney3466😂

[@nickread2623]

When the uk office first came out there were a lot of people who genuinely believed it was a real documentary.. the American one always felt like a sitcom..both funny but different

[@subhasishghosh6924]

Yeah, because people already knew from experience the US version wasn't a real documentary

[@NadiaMattson]

a small detail but I love how the youtuber switches between season and series to use the proper one from the culture he's referencing! Its small details like this that show the effort and care put into videos and I just really appreciated it.

[@mmem4264]

Jim is just so charismatic, even though he's a jerk, it's nuts.

[@TheSoonToBePurgedJackMeHoff55]

Plenty of jerks are charismatic

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

Like woolie says "evil behavior +good looks = morally grey"

[@thedukeofchutney468]

I’ll be honest I don’t think he’s a jerk. He’s a regular flawed guy. But he’s generally pretty nice and is usually the voice of reason.

[@hejolasia6692]

@@thedukeofchutney468 agreed

[@k.-flynn]

@@dissonanceparadiddle ...is jim vergil?

[@ingloriousMachina]

I don't dislike him. He's just alright, and I liked him in the early seasons. Though I hate that you literally can't criticise him in any way or his simps will jump down your throat.

[@lauxantilles]

For real. If any guy from any sitcom needs to be worshipped, Jim would not even be on the list. It would either be Chidi or Ben Wyatt on top.

[@narutomax1101]

You mean like how Dwight simps will attack you if you say you don't like him?

[@hiimhunter7649]

tbh it's true for every character some people will also make it political if you hate specific characters and treat it that way it's kinda fucked up i think most characters ended up becoming flawed in the later seasons last 2 seasons a lot of stuff felt forced and also not fully fleshed out with that being said last 2 episodes were my fav but that's because it's fairly wholesome

[@samleembardo6202]

It's worse with Pam or any other female character coz you'll just get called sexist for not liking them.

[@AlexLasson27]

I like Jim but he definitely needed someone to put him in his place every once in a while. That's why Idris Elba's character was one of the best things to happen to Jim.

[@JimHalpertFromTheOffice]

Ouch.

[@crusherven]

The snowball fight.

[@MarvelStan2001]

@@crusherven the fucking SNOWBALL FIGHT! i love jim but what he did to dwight was just straight up mean and dwight turning the tables on him was satisfying as hell.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

But Idris Elba character get everything wrong about Jim, like when he tells Jim to listen when Jim was trying to listen by telling Dwight to stop breathing so loud. I saw Idris's character as just a pretty incompetent and arrogant person all round, to juxtapose Micheal. He was losing clients left ring and center, not knowing anyone in the office or what even their jobs were.

[@bderrick4944]

@@Alex-cw3rz Idris Elba was a douchebag, no doubt, but he was just what Jim needed to be reminded that he wasn’t as socially invincible as Michael lead him on to believe. Dwight said it best, “Aww, the new manager doesn’t think Jim is adorable!”

[@jayfrayy2368]

I loved Jim in his boss era the bond he formed with Michael through walking in his shows brought a lot of depth to both characters I thought.

[@eduardoazeredo6250]

Jim always felt like the connection the reality. While everyone is immersed in the madness, he stares at the camera to make sure we all know it is bizarre. In a certain way his downfall is just him maturing and it makes total sense to happen to the most down-to-earth character on the show. On the other hand, from a storytelling point of view, it doesn't feel right to see such an important character losing room in such a way.

[@FueledFromFiction]

I felt like I was being gaslit in the later seasons of the Office with both the show and fans saying that Jim and Pam would “have issues just like any married couple” when the reality is that Jim became more of a jerk by often lying to Pam as well as make decisions for the both of them. Whereas Pam continued to sacrifice and if she ever tried to be selfish, it was shut down or generally frowned upon. Andy was dealt a similar card too, where we see his character development of becoming a better person after his return from anger management, only for the progress and his overall happiness to be undone by the end.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

I don't think it's gaslighting so much as it is the cognitive dissonance of wanting flawed characters who are more entertaining to watch than your own coworkers, while also wanting them to be morally upstanding characters to maintain the image of a wholesome show.

[@amandahannoon7864]

Jim was working hard to provide for his growing family and Pam became selfish .someone had to be doing the heavy lifting in the marriage and men are suited for that role of protector. Pam should have sucked it up more I mean he bought her a house and he waited for her during her time in ny.

[@amandahannoon7864]

Looks like you think marriage is supposed to be everyone gets what they want all the time and it’s not sacrifices must be made. Sometimes you miss time with your spouse especially with kids. Jim wasn’t a jerk he was feeling the weight of his growing responsibilities and Pam wasn’t being empathetic.

[@FueledFromFiction]

@@amandahannoon7864 Yikes, it sounds like you either weren’t paying attention or just have internalized misogyny… Jim never talked to Pam before job/housing related decisions. When you’re married, you need to discuss these things and come to a reasonable solution, not just do shit behind each other’s back and expect them to thank/forgive you later. 👏Pam gave up more than Jim did👏 Pam also discussed when she wanted to do something, where Jim did not. And not once have I seen Pam do something she wanted since they were married. If I ever act the way Jim does towards my wife, I would hope that she’d leave me. Which is another issue-Pam didn’t have a backbone, but that probably would have evened out their relationship.

[@jello7380]

@@FueledFromFiction I mean buying the house was meant to be a surprise and Jim obviously knew Pam could just say no. It’s more of a risk to him than it was to her. And the thing I personally see with Athlead was Jim was just originally trying to get his foot in the door to have the opportunity but when he got it he just impulsively jumped on it which is obviously a big mistake. I think Jim snapping on her for the recital video was unwarranted on her part but I see it being from built up stress. The same way Pam probably should have seen and known it wasn’t going to be a big issue in a day from then but she was also overwhelmed with being a mom and working full time. It seems their overall communication was just not there. And honestly what I see Pam giving up in total is not much in the grand scheme but Jim didn’t account for how it would make her feel I suppose. Pam was working a job she does not enjoy whatsoever so Jim seemed to be trying to give them more than that.

[@hectorayalasolivan7465]

The point you made about Jim's tonal shift from a simple guy to hanging out with celebrities is something that I noticed about the show as a whole. It was this show about down to earth people, and then the tone shifted as if all of them were all of a sudden higher up corporate staff. I still remember when Pam's mom was first introduced. We are not told much, but based on Pam's reaction we can tell that they have this sweet and simple relationship. Then they reintroduce her character again at a later season (6th, with another actress), and all of a sudden she's like this quasi-rich-like lady, who has traveled the world and is just tired and bored. Just seems....odd.

[@charity_catt]

Yes, I never really accepted the character change. It didn't fit Pam or the character.

[@diegosotomiranda4107]

Yeah, specially remembering the scene she called her mom almost minutes later that Jim Kissed her to tell her how confused she was with the situation and shows how close and understanding their mother and daughter relationship was, then the change happens and the mother looks like a distant mother than her daughter only uses as a nany to her child and don't care about each other so much

[@shellsterdude]

Jim started as a clown who kind-of served the role as a guide and the embodiment of the audience. His primary role was that of foil to Dwight and to inject humor (as court jester). In that role he could do some distasteful things in the name of comedy and it was okay. As the show progressed, he became an audience favorite, and they made him more relatable, likeable, and earnest. He began to care about his coworkers and job. That was fine, but then the writers screwed up. At some point Jim was too much a real person and too relatable. The writers kicked Jim out as boss because they wanted to try to recreate Michael. They made Jim fallback to resorting to his meanspirited pranks and made him do typical sitcom drama stuff like lying to Pam and being a manipulative jerk. That no longer worked or made any sense after they had spent seasons turning him into a real person and cultivating his primary role as the embodiment of the watcher. It betrayed his growth, and it felt like they were trying to squash a three-dimensional character back into a two-dimensional role.

[@Mcnutty924]

When did he lie to Pam? Looking back on characters and thinking they're the bane of humanity because they don't fit the current modern morality archetype is cringey.

[@disco.heaven]

i think you perfectly encapsulated the devolution of jim’s character. after niagara, both jim and pam become bland. it took 3 seasons for jim and pam to date, but get pregnant and married in the span of 5 episodes. their happily-married-with-kids era came too quickly, they should have been given the opportunity to be newlyweds, for pam to get drunker than she did on casino night after becoming mrs. pam halpert.

[@aloncarmi4617]

u phrased it perfectly!

[@solveig964]

@@Mcnutty924 Well for starters there's the whole buying a house without telling her thing. As well as changing his mind about investing in Athlead without telling her. Both times just expecting her to be happy with it even though he made unilateral decisions that affect both of them (as well as their family when it comes to the Athlead decision)

[@poookie4628]

Its a shame that we didnt get atleast 2 more episodes with dwight as manager and jim as his assistant to the manager since they finally became friends after 9 years

[@jackhumbach9086]

They were always friends they were just immature bc Dwight is asking to be targeted all the time and Jim sometimes takes it too far but deep down they were always friends they just got closer later on

[@Zombieturtles]

Spot on. You genuinely felt bad for Tim and rooted for him because he had nothing else going on in his life. For most of the US Office Jim already has a lot going on, so it doesn't play as well when he makes fun of others.

[@mr.tillius8119]

So I absolutely agree with you that in hindsight looking at Jim's pranks starts to feel like you are watching a low-key bully. What I feel like you skipped over was the entire Jim and Pam storyline in the final season. I think that Jim getting wrapped up in the pursuit of a dream career at the expense of his marriage was one of the most real story lines of the entire series. So many sitcoms just end at the happily ever after and the reason I still hold Jim and Pam up as the best on screen romance is because the show had the guts to take their golden couple and push them into a all too common situation. That moment when Jim instead of getting in to the taxi hugs Pam will still get me choked up sometimes 🥲

[@charity_catt]

Your words are my thoughts exactely. Jim and Pam felt real. By pushing them past their prime, the show showed us how married life and real couples interact. How problems can arise and how life, with its changes, opportunities and stress, can rock the boat and get in the way of a happy couple. It is mundane realism depicted at its finest. I am happy to see the so-called decline, as this is the most realistic ending. And without this, we wouldn't see a healthy couple fighting to save their relationship.

[@ItsRevival]

Calling Jim a bully is kind of ignoring all the bad things Dwight has done

[@J7041-u7m]

You make some great points. No character in the Office really comes off as a good person. All have some redeeming qualities and all have some very significant flaws. As far as Jim goes, I think his arc was over too early in the show. He never wanted Dunder Mifflin to be his career, but when he chose "love" over "career" (S3 finale) it really started to close off doors to him. He settled, but we knew from earlier seasons that he never wanted that to be what his life was. Athlead is kind of silly and derails a lot of the final season, but it makes some sense for a Jim character who had suppressed his ambition to be greedy when presented the opportunity to have both desires.

[@Minnazs]

Completely agree! We know Jim always hated his job. It was wrong how he lied to Pam about it but we always knew he never wanted that life. Manager was Michaels and Dwights dream not Jim’s

[@J7041-u7m]

@@Minnazs Exactly. That's what I always found intriguing about Jim and Ryan's rivalry in S4. They don't touch on it because it's a comedy show and they want Jim to "win," but in a more dramatic show this could easily be a point of tension for Jim as he looks at the successes Ryan has and regrets his decision to settle. On a minor level, Athlead is like the show writers giving a reward to him for making the right decision earlier.

[@hollywoodshopaholic]

Agreed, the biggest point to his character wasn't his love story with Pam but his ambition to be bigger than Dunder-Mifflin. The showrunners seemed to forget about that the second he got with Pam. Him wanting to become manager of the Scranton branch was so out of character, considering he never intended to stay there long-term. Him leaving for a bigger company would have been more realistic (and eventually did happen, though Athlead felt too cartoonishly successful).

[@specialnewb9821]

​@@hollywoodshopaholic well that happens a lot in life. You settle, you get comfortable... and thats fine. Most people are like that. Maybe it doesn't make for great tv though.

[@thedukeofchutney468]

Let’s be honest, the show fully died after Micheal left, but should have ended after the wedding.

[@wookie5478]

I have a theory that they put too much pressure on Michael to be the star of the show I mean he was in every episode he became more likeable and he would either be forgiven for being a jerk or people would be worse in compared to him for example todd packer

[@kidbino8120]

Michael WAS the show

[@theCarbonFreeze]

The show ended long before that. Seasons 4 and 5 were a huge step down and the story of the two main characters had long since concluded.

[@thedukeofchutney468]

@@theCarbonFreeze I’d generally agree however there were still one or two good episodes after that. The show should have it ended with Pam and Jim’s wedding and gone out on a high note like Seinfeld.

[@gabriellepriest5007]

It's honestly wild to me when people say this. To each's own though!

[@VoidNull9222]

2:49 this kind of reminds me of a story I heard when Hollywood tried to make a US version of ’The Young Ones’. They asked the creators “okay but who is the hero? Which one of the characters is the audience supposed to identify with?” And the show creators basically went “Uh, none of them…” That’s basically the contrast between Tim and Jim. Tim is the person we the audience probably would be in the situation but Jim is who we see ourselves as, the ‘hero’ who has a snarky comment for every situation and is doing really well for himself comparatively speaking.

[@Utonian21]

Yeah, Jim becomes the guy everybody like Tim wishes they were

[@c.d.rstudios4691]

They tried to make an American young ones?

[@BenjaminGroff-qi6lc]

Tim is undoubtedly the audience surrogate. The Office wasn’t the mind-blowing contradiction of former sitcom values that people make it out to be.

[@gordonneverdies]

I loved the cell phone in the ceiling prank. Andy was incredibly annoying and I was happy to get a break from him.

[@rmd9746]

The jim face is the most judgemental face someone could make and totally works when reacting to crazy guys or moments, but besides that it will come off as someone feeling superior

[@angelface101ful]

Cry about it…that’s part of his character he’s supposed to be the “yeah we saw the same thing” kinda guy

[@federicorusso4368]

I think it is supposed to come off as "feeling superior", as saying "look at the bullshit I have to put up with being stuck doing this stupid job". The problem with Jim's face is that as the series goes on, we start to sympathize more with Michael and Dwight's bullshit and less with Jim's prospective

[@creamjawn]

i understand but that’s the whole point of the jim face was to bring the show back to reality and for us viewers to have someone to relate to.

[@danielebowman]

@@federicorusso4368 I don't think it came over as "He's feeling superior". More he's "Errrr, I can't believe this just happened"

[@angelface101ful]

@Joe R literally no

[@eatatjoes6751]

The problem with The Office and Jim Halpert is that when the show started, his Office Space looking to the camera shtick was funny and relatable and not as smug - but when the show kept going, Jim's shtick became popular, so they banked on that still even as it and the show's legacy suffered - turning him from an office clown and surrogate into an asshole, plus changing norms from when the show started to now seem to paint media from before nowadays in a less favorable light.

[@glidersuzuki5572]

But later on, Jim just looks at the camera, not even a smug

[@Mcnutty924]

Say what you will but the Office and Jim Halpert were great until Micheal left.

[@keithrobertbantug754]

I had no idea people had problems with Jim, he was always an ok or good character and I feel like other characters got it worse in later seasons

[@hairoftehdog]

People who constantly insist that jim was a BAD GUY are always cynical fucks who can't accomplish anything other than jumping on a bandwagon.

[@ProjektTaku]

@@hairoftehdog okay or you're a jim simp.

[@puxtbuck6731]

I never knew this either.

[@GetOverHer3]

Me neither LOL I thought Jim and Pam were straight up designed to be perfect and flawless human beings

[@narutomax1101]

@@ProjektTaku Found the Dwight simp!

[@anyas.6229]

i like jim because he's such a real character that has both flaws and lovable qualities, but it annoys me when so many people act like jim is some angel who can never do anything wrong.

[@DaytonaPrototypes]

For me, Jim's unlikeability started when he and Pam got married and had the kid. They talked about the kid nonstop and even Will Ferrell's short lived character delivered an epic line about it. By the time you get to the final season, they are both cringe before all the forced drama with Athlead, Pam's mural and the camera guy Brian.

[@closeredge5198]

FACTS

[@calufa7]

True

[@acat6145]

Yeah new parents are going to talk about their kid

[@kellydavis4456]

The Brian stuff was so unnecessary and uncomfortable

[@Alex-cw3rz]

Dwight and the snowball fight and the flower's Dwight orders on Jims credit card are some of the best moments as they turn it on it's head

[@jedroberts10]

Agreed. The office was at its best when the characters were having to deal with mundane stuff. Unfortunately, you can only have that work in a tv show for so long. Most shows end up being caricatures of their former selves by the conclusion, and that’s what happened to the Office, and that’s what killed Jim’s character

[@angusmcphail7031]

"The main one being that..." Tim is British. A bit of an oversimplification, but I think the fundamental difference of a British main character vs an American one is what truly separates Tim and Jim. American audiences, by and large, just don't want to root for an uncool, or weaker and more ineffectual character. The need cool guy Jim to cheer for. I just rewatched the American version, and I definitely found Jim more irksome and condescending throughout than I did back in about 2006. But I don't think it is necessarily that the writers changed Jim, but rather they kept him in arrrsted development while changing the surrounding characters and setting to a point where he just didn't fit in the way he did originally. That leads to the other main difference between Jim and Tim: Jim leaves the office because he doesn't fit in anymore. Tim stays because he finally does.

[@KitCalder]

From what I understand The Office was a cult show (one of many in that era - Darkplace, Snuff Box, Green Wing etc.) that just happened to get massive, but it's still essentially art-television rather than a conventional sitcom. Mainstream British shows are just as crowd-pleasing, and I'd hazard to say that cult US audiences are just as sophisticated.

[@DodaGarcia]

I think the arc of Jim becoming a boss was brilliant and very intentional. I never read it as the show doing something arbitrary just to show him progressing, but rather as a way to humble him with the realization that being the boss while staying liked by everyone is an impossible task, which in turn gave him a new sense of empathy for Michael. I think it set the stage very well for the state of Jim and Pam's friendship with Michael by the time he left in the 7th season, in a way that would probably not have worked as well if Jim hadn't had a chance to walk in Michael's shoes.

[@DShew24]

The whole show declined with the Jim/Pam situation becoming certain. The most BRILLIANT version of this show ends after season 3- leaving us to imagine what happened with them.

[@YodaOnABender]

I feel like the original Office portrays Tim as a much more realistic character than the remake’s Jim, who’s just too cartoonish in comparison

[@adamtherock2008]

Not to over-analyze, but I think there is an unintentionally shitty message pushed by the US Office in later seasons that people pick up on in hindsight. The UK version truly captured the nightmarish capitalist mundanity of 9-5 white collar jobs. The US version however eventually softened this to make it seem that your coworkers and even your boss can be as close as your own family even though they can make your life a living hell or fire you at a moment’s notice. I still love the show but it comes off as very pro-corporate and sleazy now.

[@bderrick4944]

It starts to feel like one of those corporate-made introduction videos that you have to watch on your first day at the job. “Here at Burger King, we’re all one big happy family!” And you just think to yourself, “No, Burger King, we’re coworkers. Leave it at that.”

[@bananabrain2996]

Yes! I never really fully thought of this but this is exactly it. I don't think the US could bare to show capitalism in a negative light that didn't result in the American dream. It would have been a more interesting show for me if Jim's plan fell apart, he fell for the whole "your work is family" idea and they screwed him over. Him and Pam would have to find happiness in the mundane life. But then I'm British

[@jacobl2222]

Totally agree. The American writers didn't have the guts to keep a bleak, depressing edge. And it was probably the right call, in terms of the success of the show, because I don't think American audiences would have had the stomach for it. It became an escapist fantasy comedy, instead of a critique of the capitalist workplace.

[@Attmay]

Part of the reason for that is because they have actual product placements on the US version.

[@all_the_good_names_are_gon68]

The show isn't "pro-corporate", that would imply that the show producers believe that EVERY company/corporation is like Dunder Mifflin, Scranton but it's the opposite (I also specify the branch because it is stated numerous times in the show that this branch is the only one thriving ironically despite having an incompetent manager run it - which is the whole gig/joke of the show, that Michael, a unique character himself, who distracts the others who who themselves don't take their jobs seriously, still manages to create an amazing branch). The show centers and thrives itself off of intentionally interesting characters (whom you otherwise wouldn't encounter anywhere else whether in the world of The Office or in real life.). In the context of the story, the documentary is meant to merely show the self-perceived 'generic' lives of the characters at AN office environment who don't understand why they're being filmed (if the characters had full awareness that they're "the chosen ones" that would be the fourth wall being broken) but go along with it but outside the story, the audience and the show producers recognize the characters to be extremely unique, shaped and shaping their environment. The reason we watch and embrace The Office as well as many other TV shows is for their unique perspective/vision on otherwise ordinary things. I like to think that most shows/books/other pieces of media are intended to be simulations of very interesting hypothetical situations. Not everything is intended to be a representation of real-life.

[@k.-flynn]

Jim and Pam really annoyed me after their marriage, bc they took the "straight man" comedy role and translated it to "vanilla relationship". When characters do weird things later, it's not Jim giving relatability, it's Jim and Pam giving off a judgemental smug vibe, like uppity parents at a PTA meeting. And sometimes it came back to bite them, like at the daycare, but not often enough to fix it.

[@k.-flynn]

@@mitchellhorton9382 it was probably a learning curve. Most of the people in Parks and Rec do normal things in a disgustingly mundane environment, so their relationships can have personality instead of shock value vs vanilla.

[@Mcnutty924]

Eh you can make what you're talking about into something that's funny. They just didn't execute properly.

[@Solo-vh9fm]

Do you think this was done intentionally to make Michael more likable since Jan and Holly were goofy and it made us root for his relationships

[@bderrick4944]

Yes, they were very snoody together. Especially towards Michael.

[@MrDavidFitzgerald]

Why do American shows have to keep making seasons until they inevitably turn bad? The original office is short enough that every episode is memorable. When it wraps things up in the Christmas special, that's it -- the narrative is complete. But an endless churning out of episodes with no notion of how it might actually end is a recipe for mediocrity in the long run.

[@mychannel-rt2gn]

Shows from all countries do this often.

[@Stillreal312]

A character trait that might not have been intentional, I see in Michael, is that all the quirky things he did could have been because he was also unhappy working at Dunder Mifflin but refused to admit it, distracting himself through meaningless meetings and hijinks.

[@maddylee5607]

I feel like the show could have really humanize Jim in the final seasons by focusing on the flaws in their marriage. We watched their fairy tale relationship form and creating a textbook happily ever after, but we don't know what happens afterwards. The parts about I remember about Jim and Pam near the end of the show was their disagreements: Jim being too impulsive and not involving Pam in big decisions with Pam beginning to feel lonely and unfulfilled as a full time working mother of 2. But I also remember them deciding it was better to fight than to not address the issues and deciding to seek counselling; showing that happily ever after isn't perfect but that doesn't mean they are not happy.

[@DodaGarcia]

Omg you just reminded me of that moment where she says “I don’t think you should go to Philly tonight. I think you should stay and I think we should fight.” Gives me the chills to this day.

[@bderrick4944]

Jim and Pam’s relationship started feeling more like Pam and Roy’s towards the end. An uninterested husband/fiancée and a dissatisfied Pam. Then the cameraman comes in to play the role of new Jim( caring and attentive), and their relationship starts to further decline. Then they make up at the end and everything is happy ever after. But that feels unrealistic. I liked how they were starting to show the decline of their relationship towards the end, because most relationships, no matter how perfect they seem, eventually come to an inevitable decline where both sides are dissatisfied with the other. I think that would have been a really cool contrast to the earlier seasons, where their relationship was idealized to the point where it started to feel unrealistic, similarly to how a person in a new relationship may feel. The audience has been lead on to believe that the relationship could never end. But then reality slaps you in the face and reminds you that all good things must come to an end, and as the audience you can feel the pain of the characters going through the decline of their relationship. Instead, Jim and Pam made up, and the idealistic vision of a fictional relationship is perpetuated for the rest of eternity.

[@mozorellastick2583]

@@bderrick4944 I have to rely because I just don't believe in all relationships having to end with dissatisfaction at some point. Life is ups and downs until you die, it's the same for your relationship, you just love eachother through it until the end

[@specialnewb9821]

​@bderrick4944 As a couple you have ups and downs. If 50% of marriages end in divorce 50% don't.

[@uglynailsasmr6365]

I think another big point of contention that made me hate Jim was the way he treated the women he dated (besides Pam). He was pretty blatant about his disregard for Karen, and even more-so with Amy Adams (forgot her character's name). His treatment of them really planted the seeds for my eventual dislike of his character.

[@m8jesticc]

this omg

[@charity_catt]

Yes, he somewhat used Amy Adams' character to make Pam jealous, which worked: Cue the scene where Pam kisses Roy agressively after she sees Amy Adams' character toy with Jim's neck tie. Also, Karen was used as a rebound. They had fun yeah, but Karen was dropped as soon as Pam made her true feelings clear :/

[@NicoleCzarnecki]

He also treated Pam poorly, including that he abandoned her and their two children for his dream job in Philadelphia and then later guilts her into moving to Austin for his dreams-and effectively isolates her from her support system.

[@ajcodispoti2293]

@@NicoleCzarnecki first part fair but she was pretty happy moving to Austin

[@NicoleCzarnecki]

@@ajcodispoti2293 , not really. She had made clear previously that she would be happy to stay in Scranton.

[@WillowJordan1979]

It's a shame Gervais and Merchant no longer write together, because I really want to know what happened to Tim and Dawn. Even if it was bleak and they were still at some deadend job, maybe they broke up and have custody issues over children, or something. I just wanted to see it.

[@jeroenceulemans3715]

I really liked your analysis! Really fair and objective! New sub, for sure!

[@quartertwenty484]

Jim Halpert was a manic pixie dream boy for Pam's every(wo)man character.

[@2lostbikes]

I never thought about it like this, but it completely fits.

[@sagebauland4276]

Wanna make a couple interesting even after they get married? Take a look at April and Andy

[@waverlyaltis7171]

April and Andy are such a great example of a dynamic married couple. I even feel like Ben and Leslie, or Jake and Amy, are also good examples of characters having fun chemistry and conflicts even after they get hitched. The office, compared to those shows, just feels lacking in that later chemistry

[@lauxantilles]

Or any any ANY couples in Parks and Rec (the end ones I mean). Parks and Rec, and The Good Place had some great couples and real conflicts.

[@ComicalRealm]

Fun fact: When John Krasinski (Jim Halpert) got the role of Jim, the first thing he asked the casting director was "did Jenna Fischer (Pam) get the role?" Similarly, when Jenna got the job, the first thing she asked the casting director was about John getting the role.

[@jorgebalbin5170]

Funny? Funny how?

[@ryanfischer4011]

@@jorgebalbin5170 umm… it says fun. Not funny

[@jorgebalbin5170]

@@ryanfischer4011 Thats how it goes in goodfellas 🙄

[@hairoftehdog]

No. John Krasinski debunked that years ago...

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

k, nobody cares about something trivia fact you googled and copy pasted

[@callumclancy3512]

wow, this is the first time I've seen an american commentator genuinely appreciate and understand the UK office for what it's trying to do instead of just commenting that it's "boring" because the humour is more subtle than in the US version, thank you

[@chrisgrudge6964]

Uh…you haven’t seen much commentary on the topic then.

[@chubbydevil360]

@@chrisgrudge6964 na the majority i see is negative

[@chrisgrudge6964]

@@chubbydevil360 Maybe your memory is selective then. It's an incredibly highly rated series, that isn't just Brits rating it highly lol.

[@geraltrivia9565]

Bro no one says that lmao, in the US most ppl rate it higher than the US version. Typical brit thinking thier humor is advanced or some shit

[@jackhumbach9086]

Idk iv seen both the UK one is fun and definitely a good show just compared to the US office it’s boring probably bc I’m American and I just kinda relate to a Jim more especially early season Jim. He’s just a guy that likes to have fun and can’t be with the girl he likes then later on he becomes the guy I want to be in the future which is get married have kids and get to have a super cool sports job which is something I would love to do.

[@jamesd5761]

This underlines my problem with the US office overall... it really boils down to a cartoonish comfort show albeit with some genuinely witty sparks and its annoying when people rave about it being more than that.. UK office can be a hard watch because its grounded in reality but its alot more rewarding because of that

[@Zinovad]

I think you nailed it right off the bat at the very start of your video. The main issue is that Jim has complete immunity to humiliation. He's always "cool", no matter what he does. A cool character needs to have apparent flaws for us to empathize with them. After season 3, the tension with Pam is gone, Michael is a great boss, and Jim has no major weaknesses left, maybe cute quirks at worse, and therefore he isn't a relatable character.

[@alfa01spotivo]

He was fine. He had problems during his marriage but that was a realistic turn and welcomed

[@jorgebalbin5170]

“Realistic”

[@alfa01spotivo]

@@jorgebalbin5170 yeah "realistic" because it was

[@jorgebalbin5170]

@@alfa01spotivo Nah, just poor writting

[@asant90]

@@alfa01spotivo no it wasn’t lol

[@alfa01spotivo]

@@asant90 yes it was. Marriage isnt all sunshine and rainbows

[@SigmaLongshot]

Just to begin, I'm a real fan of your format. You're well-spoken and genuine, a world away from the faux-excitement fakery of youtube's bread and butter. RE the topic, I think the root of the issue for the show in its entirety is that they started off basically creating proxies for everything in the original - Americanised "copies" of storylines, beats, characters and themes. It's easy to see at the start- I'm a HUGE fan of the bleak, melancholy "glimmer of light in stifling ennui", and so is my dad. We watched the remakes first few episodes together and though we didn't really like the cartoonish, exaggerated... Americanism of it all, he was picking out characters easily. "Oh, that's the Gareth, then. Oh, so he's the Finchy in this one." However they established the characters with these rules, then started to deviate outwards - seemingly at random - with wacky character idiosyncrasies more befitting of a comic strip than a real life setting. For example, Gareth is a nervous, socially parasitic man who thrives on getting recognition by any means possible. Dwight, as Gareth's copy, starts this way, too. But whilst Gareth's arc takes him on a mewling sycophant quest to eventually usurp David, showing his loyalty is only as deep as his immediate personal needs, Dwight reveals he's actually an extremely wealthy beetroot farmer who also has several mansions, seemingly for no reason other than *waving hands* "WhOoAAah, look out, WACKY!" This permeates through every facet of the show - they keep trying to root the characters in those initial rules when... to be honest, they no longer really apply. Michael Scott was David Brent at the beginning, but he couldn't be further from that character by the end - so why they repeatedly attempt to shoehorn ANY "Brentisms" into him later seems wasted, a token attempt to bring the train back to the rails, when it was better off just doing one or the other.

[@natethegreat7821]

To me, one of the biggest misses opportunities in the entire run of the Office: they should have devoted an arc to Dwight as manager of the Scranton branch. I know they toyed with it for what amounts to half an episode once or twice but I think they should’ve really gone for it. Dwight desperately wanted to rule, having Jim have to work as his subordinate would’ve been interesting and so many great moments/ gags/ bits could’ve come as a result. I think a nice 4-5 episode run of Dwight as office manager would’ve really done the show some good. And I don’t mean post Steve’s departure. It should’ve been while he was there. Mayhaps Michael went on vacation or he did something absurdly irresponsible and got suspended. It would’ve been too much fun and I don’t understand why they never legitimately gave Dwight the light of day as leader within the first 6 seasons.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

Dwight already owned the building their office was in so at that point he really didn't need more than an episode as the Scranton branch manager. His gun misfire makes sense as such a mishap wouldn't be such a big deal on a farm but was enough to ruin all future chances of Dunder Mifflin management for Dwight.

[@natethegreat7821]

@@MK_ULTRA420 Reread my comment. You’ll note I already mentioned they gave it a go here or there but I think a nice 4 episode arc PRE-Steve’s departure, and with Dwight definitely as manager would’ve been cool. Similar to the Michael Scott Paper company arc. An on going story with sprawling developments and fun twists and turns. Not a single episode where he fires a gun, not him owning the building, him definitively running the branch! That’s what I’m getting at; I think it’d have been dope and spiced things up🤓

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@natethegreat7821 No I think you're wrong, at most it would add another episode of new material.

[@natethegreat7821]

@@MK_ULTRA420 Well fortunately for you things turned out how you wanted! As for me, my heart would’ve soared if somewhere in season 3-6 they had gone for it. But C’est la vie!

[@jackyzimmerman]

Personally I think Dwight was too uptight and unpleasant to lead the show. I love him as a character, and maybe you could mine a lot of comedy from his management, but I think it was wise that the writers passed him over. He’s great as a wacky sidekick. As a lead I think he’d be too insufferable - at least Michael had a playful personality. Good take tho

[@angelearichardson5555]

Personally I LOVE the Athlead storyline, I think their relationship was a lot more realistic and relatable during that time. I see why people might not like it though.

[@kaitlynmcbride4291]

I used to hate the whole Athlead arc. I used to think, "Why can't they just let this one marriage, fictional though it is, simply continue to be happy?" But after being married for a few years myself, that whole season became really sweet. The fact that they went through a difficult time and still overcame it always gets me.

[@diegosotomiranda4107]

The problem we're than most of their problems were too dramático yo the show they we're, so it felt out of place that suddenly this couple was having problems that Even could lead with divorce (similar with Mónica and Chandler problems un Friends when they got together), they couldve handled their misunderstandings better if they left room for more simple and harmless day to day conflicts of a married couple (thats another problem, they almost never show or hint their day to day life as a married couple outside problems that happened in The Office) but in little time they added 2 crucial conflicts that Made the dinámic less enjoyable

[@HenryAshman]

I feel like the comparison between Jim & Tim from the UK office really epitomises the difference between UK & US shows and how they present a character that's sort of a "main" one in the ensemble. The US one is smart, relatively successful, cool and plays pranks on people, whereas in a British show they're one getting picked on by the "cool" guy who's a bit of a prick, and never really get a "win" without some serious downside

[@legoghostyoda]

7:30 i am SO glad you are talking about this. as much as i love the office people tend to ignore its faults and romanticize the show because it’s “iCoNiC!” it’s really disheartening to see people ignore weak writing and plot lines because they’re “supposed” to like the show. it’s super refreshing to hear someone talk about this show with nuance. your content is fucking on point, as always. keep it up man.

[@theCarbonFreeze]

I absolutely hate it when a bad show (or multiple bad seasons in a row) is given a pass and treated as a flawless classic in hindsight because of the early seasons legacy. The office is the worst offender of this phenomenon in my opinion

[@d.c.beckendorff1323]

REALLY great to see you address the UK version. I’d like this video just for that. Maybe it’s because I’m british myself but I much prefer the subtlety and realism of that version. While it’s cool to see all these recent video essays on the US version, we only get quotes and memes for the original. It’s a shame the more serious discussion analysing its writing remains so thin on the ground.

[@BennyOkay]

You gotta talk about how, when Andy returns, Jim REFUSES to call him Drew like he asks. That’s my biggest gripe with Jim across the series

[@wvu05]

Mine is the way that he does the typical bully thing of justifying his "cute pranks" after realizing how bad they sound one after the other.

[@simitsu2587]

Why when no one called him drew

[@BennyOkay]

@@simitsu2587 because he actively says that he will not call him drew

[@theCarbonFreeze]

Yep. Or when he expected Ryan to give up his desk upon his (Jim's) return to the Scranton branch. Or made Toby feel self conscious for trying to give a fist bump. This is all in the same episode. Jim wasn't just mean to Dwight, he looked down on everyone for no reason

[@harrisonsportsacademy9626]

But he would call him Bug Tuna. No complaints about that. Huh.

[@IggyB-Music]

It’s just a show bro idk why people are like “Jim’s so mean for pranking Dwight” it’s not real life lol

[@Abcd-up3us]

Jim’s pranks started out as putting a stapler in jello. And they ended up as him convincing Dwight that he was being secretly recruited by the CIA and that he would be picked up on top of the building he works at by a helicopter in the middle of the night. That perfectly describes the issue with the show the longer it ran

[@jerrykreutzer4326]

The American Jim is superhuman -- he's handsome, personable and instantly liked by everyone, inexplicably good at everything he does, great husband and father and, at the end, a dream job randomly falls into his lap. Even then he easily gives up on that dream, because he's just so selfless, until things magically work out again. Rewatching the show 10 years later I really wish they went with more nuanced characters and ending to the series, rather than the picture-perfect, but so unrealistic, happy end. Looking at it now, honestly, the show ended up being just an average sitcom, with one great character lifting it up.

[@ohiochungusrizzler]

the last 2 seasons felt like an entirely different show

[@bderrick4944]

If you hadn’t moved to fucking colorado maybe they wouldn’t have

[@zAsKaA]

i liked garden party, gettysburg, florida arc mostly, turf war, work bus, lice, stairmageddon, but very true! compared to seasons 2-7 its much noticeably worse

[@jkbytheway4285]

​@@zAsKaA please don't tell me you liked Gettysburg that episode was absolutely awful

[@zAsKaA]

@@jkbytheway4285 i kinda liked it

[@psanime4935]

my biggest issue with Jim pam was how he handles relationships that believing grand gestures instead of talking about how he really feels

[@Colaws]

Down to earth, lives with Pam, goofs of at work? There is NO question, Jim Halpert is the King of the Whites!

[@kommissar.murphy]

I'm rewatching season 5 at the moment and the way they took the spotlight off Jim and Pam and put it in everyone else is skillfully done. It's what kept the show going I think.

[@CosmicDuskWolf]

I do like how Jim and Dwight end up becoming good friends. I think Jim ended up changing a lot when Dwight saved him. Jim gives Dwight the advice he needed and so Dwight ended up marrying Angela. So I don't hate Jim.

[@Cdr2002]

Jim and Pam to me are the real protagonists of the show, often overshadowed by Michael and Dwight’s larger personalities. They’re an integral aspect to me and I just like them. The only times I thought Jim was being unreasonable in a way that stuck out was A: when he dipped out of helping Erin with her relationship problems because the conversation wasn’t personally interesting to him and B: the Philly drama in Season 9, specifically the middle of the arc where they were trying (in my opinion) too hard to rock the boat of Jim and Pam’s relationship. I vastly disagree with the people who think they became uninteresting the moment they were married and people who say that about fictional couples in general.

[@elizabethread6014]

They're so boring. They have an unrealistic ideological fairytale romance which destroys the essence of their relationship which was supposed to be forbidden/flirtatious young people just trying to get by. Instead they made jim into a complete asshole, both of them have a superiority complex and pam is literally one of the least talented characters ice ever seen. Their plotlines are uninspired and out of touch with reality, the show shouldn't have focused so much on them

[@bderrick4944]

@@elizabethread6014 You could not have said it better. Literally everything I have disliked about them since they started dating. They act like fairytale characters with zero flaws and pure charisma. They are socially invincible. Everyone likes them. Everything works for them in the end. Everyone finds them attractive and nice. They act superior to everyone. Michael and Dwight are flawed, disliked by many, and actually have to suffer the consequences of the real world. Dwight is often humiliated, and Michael is often shut down and forced to face the limits of his life. It’s endearing to the audience. Jim and Pam are who we aspire to be, Michael and Dwight are who we actually are. For that reason, I consider Michael and Dwight (mostly Michael) the actual main characters of the show.

[@bananabrain2996]

I don't think they became boring because they were married, I think their relationship was written poorly after that point, not just in the fairytale way but their disagreements were generic things about moving, opportunities etc. I think there was potential to write in some interesting scenarios after the marriage but their relationship didn't have anything interesting in it other than the pranks

[@bananabrain2996]

@@elizabethread6014 I would have loved to see their unrealistic ideas trip them up and for the show to confront the reality of these kinds of characters in real life! But then again, I don't know if the US version was ever written to be that kind of show

[@wvu05]

I think another difference is how people encountered the show. If you started by binging, you get the impact of seeing Jim's pranking in one sitting, and even by Jim's admission, that is _far_ less sympathetic than seeing it once a week. Not counting being turned off catching part of a season one episode, I didn't watch it until a Comedy Central marathon. Four or five episodes in, I _hated_ Jim.

[@whitedeion598]

Same

[@jumpedscarab9444]

8:30 you missed the entire point of the ending He tries to have it all but settles so he doesn't lose what's most important in life: his family

[@Abcd-up3us]

The office should have ended after Carrell left, there was nothing else to do with the show after that.

[@dominiccenteno1233]

Jim and Pam lost their appeal to me after season 3 when they got together. There's just no interesting thing for them in the setting of The Office. That's why I'm impressed at Brooklyn 99 for keeping me hooked for Peraltiago even after they got together. I also liked how they handle Sofia compared to how they trashed Karen in the Office. Dwight and Michael really carried this show for me.

[@hollywoodshopaholic]

Probably because Jake and Amy never lost their individual motivations and goals after getting together (each of their relationships with the other characters remained just as strong as before), whereas Jim and Pam's personality simply became "that couple." They kind of lost their individual life ambitions and quirks, and almost all of their storylines revolved around being together. It's like they had each other so they didn't need anyone else.

[@victoriaaaaaawestaaa]

Brooklyn 99 nog eens 1 aflevering afgekeken zo slecht is die show

[@ghostypheus]

do you like parks and rec? i never got into the office, but would be curious to see your take on the series and things like leslie knope's evolution from S1 to S2, april and andy's romance, and maybe a comparison between that show and the office.

[@BloodnightStudios]

You forget that Andy was a complete villain when Jim pranked him. I felt no sympathy for Andy. In fact, it felt deserved.

[@narutomax1101]

Same goes for Dwight.

[@redheron4321]

@@narutomax1101 Yeah. For me, I never cared about Dwight's character arc. I felt forced and undeserved. At his heart, he's still a fringe sociopath who would gladly push you in front of a car if it meant it would bring him success.

[@diegosotomiranda4107]

Thats My problem with Jim and his fans, that they justify every Bad ot uncalled behaviour he has against other pointing that somehow they "deserved it", Jim like to mess up with easy targets, the ones he knows he can manipulate and bother them, thats why he picls dwight then Andy, she feeds on social akward people to feel more coop but the moment someone who doesnt take bs stands on his ground he became a snake or a scarred puppy, hes a lowkey bully that can't stand not getting his way

[@5ive32]

Jim is charismatic. Jim is very smart and doesn't really try or apply himself. And yet he wins. This is why people hate him. However, he isn't hateable, not even a little bit. He, treats people the way he wishses to be treated, he respects women and wants them to feel comfortable around him. They do, which is why they are also very atrracted to him (doesn't hurt that he's tall too). He has a very easy going nature and honestly if anyone met him in real life they'd probably like him straight away. I think everyone who says they hate him is because they have no idea how the hell he remains so aloof and yet so likeable. Because most people wished they "didn't care" the way Jim does, but in all honesty they care too much and it bleeds into a form of neediness. They know that if they met Jim, they'd secretly want his approval, and that terrifies, angers and/or disgusts most of you for knowing that about yourself. But what do I know, I'm just some random on the Internet...

[@Adriaan2005]

So thats what "character's idealization" looks like xD To quote what seems to be your idol : "The exact opposite of what you just said is true" xD. Dont get me wrong, I used to like Jim, yes he was down to earth, funny, likeable, but with time, he got way too confident...too cocky, condescending. He didnt treat her gfs right, and was a massive dick to Pam in season 9 (and to Dwight in alooot of episodes). But still, they wanted to make him the "good guy", the cool guy, so people would like him and defend him blindly..Again, its all about idealization..so nope, Jim wasn't actually perfect, and nope, nobody would secretely want his approval (or maybe you would? xD).

[@samkelomotau2517]

I tried rewarching the Office, and Jim is the reason why I did not get very far.

[@DetectorCliche]

1:07 I always thought his British counterparts name was Bilbo Baggins. 😆

[@timothyspool1399]

Just like they couldn't handle Michael being as unpleasant as David Brent, Americans couldn't deal with Jim being a bit of a loser like Tim. I guess they appreciate humor in a very different way.

[@alexforce9]

This reminds me of a quote from Mad men - " You have no charcater, you are just handsome"

[@grimreefer9324]

Jim's ceiling phone prank always struck me as really like. Not funny? And just a really uncomfortable moment in the show. I genuinely don't know if the writers/directors were intending it to come off that way, or if I'm only interpreting it that way. Even not liking Andy's character at all, Jim prompting him into a total mental breakdown felt really jarring in context