The Speed of Gravity. A conversation with Rupert Sheldrake

Isaac Newton is best known for his theory of gravity. And yet, the great scientist also insisted: "ye cause of gravity is what I do not pretend to know.” In other words, notions like gravity, and force in general, are deeply mysterious phenomena.
In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask just what gravity might be. The conversation begins with a feature of gravity that is typically overlooked by physicists, namely that gravity has a speed which is far faster than the speed of light.
They consider how gravity might be linked to the notion of levity, a link that can be renewed again. Newton himself was inclined to regard gravity as the divine will in the cosmos and was also influenced by the belief in daemons, particularly the entity called Eros or love. These are go-betweens in the universe, in the case of Eros, attracting all things and securing the many as a whole. Panpsychism and final causes are other themes that arise.
Contemplating the mysteries of modern science, often hidden in plain sight, leads naturally to deeply meaningful considerations about the nature of the world in which we live.
The paper Rupert mentioned, The Speed of Gravity, can be found here - www.intalek.com/Index/Project...
For more conversations between us see
www.sheldrake.org/audios/shel...
www.markvernon.com/talks

[@maxtroy]

There are 2 ligo detectors on earth very far away from one another. They observe things happening in the heavens and then measure the gravitational waves with ligo. Of course, the waves arrive at one detector, then are expected to arrive at the next (geographically distant) one, with a delay equal to the speed of loght. And that is exactly what happens and is measured as far as I’m aware. In fact I believe they are able to use this timing difference between the two to ascertain the direction the of the event. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

[@keithvertrees9008]

This is my understanding as well. When both LIGO and VIRGO have a detection they are sometimes able to alert astronomers to the general area on the sky, and they are then able to observe the EM emissions from the same event which arrive roughly at the same time. I don't know how to reconcile that with what Dr. Sheldrake is saying here.

[@maxtroy]

@@keithvertrees9008 the whole ligo thing absolutely blew my mind. Veritasium did a video on it, the precision involved, what was it, the resolution in the detector was effectively 1/2000th of the width of a proton or something crazy like that? But yeah. I have to wonder, does Sheldrake actually keep up to date with all the latest advancements or is he so far down his own rabbit hole he only pays attention to theories and information that align with his point of view? It’s kind of disappointing because I really like a lot of what he has to say, but when you confidently say the things he’s saying here - when a layman like me who works a 9-5 seems know more about state of the art experiments in this area, well …

[@russellnc]

You can't measure anything that travels faster than the speed of light with a system that depends on the speed of light for the basis of it's measurement, the measured speed will only be show as the time dilation of the measuring system, as the event trying to be measured occurs in the future. Gravity influenced the future, but we can only see it's influence in the past, which we precive as the present.

[@Mantramurtim]

Maybe gravity are faster than gravity waves.

[@Mantramurtim]

*is*

[@savage22bolt32]

Thanks for the wonderful video, and a huge thanks for not ruining it with crappy background music. I don't know why some people feel compelled to add annoying background music throughout their videos.

[@christopherellis2663]

To distract from their waffle 😅

[@maconcamp472]

The Big Bang Theory!! 🐘 🐾 🥁 Each thought represents a bang❗️Higher vibrational thoughts 🐝🐝🐝 will create bigger bangs‼️ Pebbles And Bam Bam!! 🧊 🦕 🧊 🦖 🧊 🦣 🧊 Each grain of sand or pebble, a building block for planets or dark matter!! 🪨 Dark energy aka consciousness, creates the bang!! Supernovae!! 💥 Super Moons!! Flowery moons!! 🌹 Saturn a flowery moon!! Representing the 6th dimension!! More energy!!🪐 🛸 We control it!! 🧞 We’re stars!!✨ Hi, Hey, Hello!!🦜 The more G’s, the better!! They’ll reflect our minds, technology, and more!! G strings!! 👙 👙👙👙 Our brains look like gum!! 🧠 Juicier the better!!!🍏🍋‍🟩🫐🍍🍎🍌🍈🥥🍐🍉🍒🥝🍊🍇🍑🍋🍓🥭 Love everything until it loves you back!! Mosquitos too!!🦟 ❤ Each of us and each galaxy would represent a cell!! 🦠 We’re stars putting ourselves back together again!! Like Humpty Dumpty!! 🥚 🐓 The sky is blue because we’re meant to imagine it as a diamond!! The auroras then create the rest of the spectrum!! 🌈 💎 A purple sky would reflect the heart of the ocean!! 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Love!!!💗 🐶 🎾 🧶 🐈‍⬛ To create heaven On Earth, the galaxies collide!! 🌌 Twin flames connect!! 🔥 🔥 We’re creating quantum entanglement!! Ghost particles merging, becoming more like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man!!👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻 The universe is still the Earth!!⭐️🌍⭐️ We’re seeing it from the insides!! 🕵️ Like we’re inside a volcano 🌋 or wishing well!! The stars and galaxies are like coins!!🪙 The Goonies vibes!! 💀 We’re treasure!! Antarctica is treasure island!! 🐧🇦🇶 Unlocking antimatter!! 🐜 Booby and booty traps exposed!! Planet X!! Hubba Hubba!!🥰 Everything and everyone has been our teacher!!👩‍🏫 3D is like the murky bottom of a bong or volcano!!🌋 The fourth dimension, representing Mars is like the stem of the bong or the volcanos vent!! 👽 Experiencing higher dimensions is like the smoke or magma reaching our mouths 😋 and then circulating through our bodies!! We are the Earth!!🌍 👼 The road less traveled!!!🧳 🌹 Straight up!! 🎈 🎈🎈🎈🎈We’d be super condensed or extremely packed neutron stars!! Like Rigel!! Blueberries!! Antioxidants!! Betelgeuse has evolved into a neutron star!! 🍊🫐 Our long winding road, exploring different dimensions, finally straightening out!! I’m getting Pee Wee vibes!! Large Marge sent me!!🚴😂 We’re vaporized, as if we’ve been smoked or roasted!! 💨 The smoke representing again those compressed neutron stars climbing the higher dimensions of the universe like a chimney!! I’m Mary Poppins, y’all !! ☂️ 🧞‍♀️ It would also represent us as a comet traveling through a wormhole!! 💫 Who me, I’m just a worm!!🐛 🫖 Solving a labyrinth!! 🦉 Solving amaze!!! 🦋 Different energies tell a different story!! 📚 We’re storytellers!! Artists!!🧑‍🎨 We’re energy first!! 🐝 A 12 inch boner is like receiving a foot of snow!!⛄️ 😂 When powered by neutrons and a magnetar energy field, one is like the energizer bunny!!🐰 They’ll keep going and going and going!! 🐇 🐇🐇🐇🐇 If you’re destined to have more than one twin flame, you’re like Frogger, playing leap frog!! Lucy is a sucker for Lillies!! 🐸 🍀 🐸 🍀 🐸🍀🐸🍀🐸 G Force!!!🥳👙🥳👙🥳👙🥳👙🥳 Dorothy’s Ruby red slippers!! ❤❤ Something here in 3D land has to change, yes, mmmmm! Dark Crystal Series!!😍 🧚🏼 We need to get this show rolling!! 🎥 We need our second moon!! Two moons!!! Two Mercurys!! Two black holes!!🕳️ 🕳️ They’ll need some color!! 🌈 Two blood moons!! 🩸 🩸 Two Ruby red slippers!!🥿 🥿 We have to die and become reborn!! Dye!! Dye those slippers red!!😮❤❤😂 Makes complete sense!! 🤯 There’s no place like home!! Home is where the heart is!! Jupiter and the 5th dimension!! 🐸 🍀 Clover Field!!👽 🛸 Time speeds up real fast once we’re there because seeing is definitely believing!! We get excited, hearts start pumping!! 💕 Minds start to open up!! 💜 Oxytocin pumping through our blood!! A love signature!! ✍️ Removing our writers block!! We’re storytellers!! 📚 The two blood moons also like draculas fangs!! Or the fangs of a snake and spider!! A kundalini experience!!!🐍💜 An anti venom!! 🐜 A love bite!! I’m nibbling your ear!! Ringing your ears like church bells!! A liberty bell! 🔔 Heightening your spidey senses!!!🕷️😳🩸🩸 My story just gets juicier!! When is it juicy enough for you, I guess, is the question!! Strawberry Hill!! Cherry Blossoms!!🍒🍓We even got hills named after chocolate!!🍫 Purrthquakes!! 😻

[@Ardemez]

I do not understand the issue here...the traditional reasoning is that the Earth is not feeling the Sun directly, but instead, it is moving through a type of medium whose form and relational quality is dictated by the Sun at an earlier time, and "updates" to this medium propagate at the speed of light. So the Earth is never reacting to the Sun directly or instantaneously, but instead to a past image of the Sun that was encoded into the geometry of local spacetime. The whole beginning of this argument has the air of an unfortunate misunderstanding stemming from a poor translation of mathematical ideas into natural language.

[@timjohnson3913]

I agree with you, but it is curious that the force of gravity points to the instantaneous position of the attracting body, not the older position delayed by the speed of light (electromagnetic charges work the same way). In GR, a component of the calculation is related to the velocity of the attracting body, hence the force is able to point to the instantaneous position. One way to interpret this may be that the gravitational field itself has a velocity.

[@davidmudry5622]

www.nist.gov/world-trade-center-investigation/study-faqs/wtc-towers-investigation FAQ 31 "the top of the WTC tower came down essentially in free fall" kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGSvm32bmsaYbJo

[@jasmins203]

@@timjohnson3913you can’t possibly claim that anything points at the instantaneous position of anything. That is impossible and would ruin the causality. Of course the Earth is in gravitational pull of approx 8 min old Sun and that pull points exactly there. We have no way of knowing what is going on with Sun at this time. Where do you get such ideas?!

[@ormrinn]

No the earth is not being pulled to where the sun was eight minutes ago, sorry that's not the math nor the science.

[@davidmudry5622]

@@ormrinn gravity is not a force kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGSvm32bmsaYbJo

[@kennypridemore5466]

How fast is gravity when there is no resistance ? The speed is as fast as thought, you can travel to the farthest universe just by thinking it

[@lindacarroll5018]

Many thanks - looking forward to future conversations.

[@yosefrazin6455]

Hmm but love isn't just about pulling things together. It also requires giving things enough space to not be entirely consumed/lost in a devouring 'unity'

[@flmartin4562]

The recent detection of gravitational waves from the merger of two black holes, coinciding with the optical observations of the same event, provides compelling evidence for gravitational waves traveling at the speed of light [16]. This event occurred approximately 1.3 billion light-years away, meaning that both the gravitational waves and the electromagnetic radiation (light) traveled for 1.3 billion years before reaching Earth. The fact that they arrived simultaneously, within the measurement uncertainties, strongly suggests that gravitational waves and light propagate at the same speed. Furthermore, in the field of orbital mechanics, astronomers and physicists routinely account for the finite speed of light when modeling the motion of celestial bodies [17]. This adjustment, known as the Rømer delay, is necessary to accurately predict the positions of planets, moons, and other celestial objects, as their observed positions are affected by the time it takes for light to reach Earth. The need for this adjustment implies that gravitational effects, which govern the motion of these bodies, also propagate at the speed of light.

[@vsiegel]

It was so nicely unesoteric until the first mention of love. It weakens the point that the physics seems near-esoteric and may be physical anyway.

[@CarsonBirdD]

Haven't watched the whole video yet, and I am no expert, but based on the beginning, you're saying that if I shoved the sun, the gravitational ripple of the sudden and intense motion would travel to earth faster than the speed of light? That gravity can exceed the speed of causality? I mean, we have measured gravitational waves, and found them to propagate at the speed of causality, AKA the speed of light in a vacuum. It's not that light takes 8 minutes to reach earth - it's that events seem to only be able to propagate across space at the speed light also happens to travel. Definitely interested to keep listening...

[@patrickquinlan3056]

We have waves on the surface of the sea but they do not indicate how fast the water is flowing. Gravity waves might travel at the speed of light but if gravity itself travels faster than light then the speed of causality may well equal the speed of gravity.

[@sdutta8]

I thought the speed of gravity waves had been measured experimentally and found to be that of light.

[@Paul-Gray]

you are correct

[@LabyrinthMike]

That's what I remember too. There was some event that we were able to detect with space telescopes and when they looked at the LIGO data, the gravitational wave arrived just before or after the light. There was an explanation about the difference, but I don't remember what it was.

[@patrickquinlan3056]

This begs the question: are gravity waves and gravity itself the same thing and do they travel at the same speed?

[@freerovingbovine]

"A gravitational wave is an invisible (yet incredibly fast) ripple in space. Gravitational waves travel at the speed of light (186,000 miles per second). These waves squeeze and stretch anything in their path as they pass by. spaceplace.nasa.gov/gravitational-waves/en/

[@tomszabo7350]

​@patrickquinlan3056 Gravity has a gradient based on the inverse square law. It gradually gets weaker with distance. A gravity wave is a "ripple" in which the gravitational field rises and drops off sharply. It's exactly as if an object with mass were traveling at the speed of light such that its gravitational influence (spacetime curvature) was also traveling at the speed of light. Except the gravity wave propagates as a bubble from the source, so it's more like mass being blown out at the speed of light in every direction (what's actually propagating is inertial energy but of course this is equivalent under the principle of special relativity, which is why when you apply It to mass you get general relativity).

[@JohnKRiordan]

"Gravity acts as a final cause... it's attracting from the future..." [21:27] Brilliant! Teilhard de Chardin taught the cosmos is converging on God, his teleological "Omega Point", by an attraction which is the inverse of terrestrial gravity. His philosophy has always struck me as a recasting of ancient eros mysticism in naturalistic terms. More recently, Ian Barbour has argued that gravity, rather than entropy, is the cause of time (if time exists at all), and that the universe is becoming *more* structured, not less, at least on the large scale. Allometry, and in particular, Metabolic Scaling Theory in ecology, provides insight into how life may be understood as a gravitational phenomenon, by demonstrating the relationship of mass and space to ecosystems. Then there's Penrose/Hameroff's proposal that consciousness may provide a solution to the riddle of quantum gravity, through quantum interactions with the cell's skeletal microtubules. The universe, I'm convinced, is gravitating to God!

[@lawofuniverserealityanalyt3199]

But electromagnetism is known to be a stronger force than gravity? Electromagnetic attractor fields are nondual dualities of mind/logos and spirit. Mind is the electronic action the reaction of which is the spirit. Newton's third law, the law of the universe! This has its parallel mechanical solution in solving the problem of complexity in a transport network, an all-at-once nondual mind spirit duality.

[@cranegantry868]

Where did you learn those things, please, I want to know those things too.

[@susanbarrackman8832]

Maybe this universe has its own expanding field which continues to expand from the internal dark matte repulsion .

[@christopherellis2663]

Time is merely the motion of matter in space. The real question is, what is matter in space?

[@Eris123451]

Having actually read him, I've always regarded Teilhard de Chardin as having been something of a crackpot verging on the charlatan.

[@Reziac]

Someone once pointed out that if gravity were not (almost) instantaneous, by the time the sun's gravity reached the Earth, Earth would have flown off into space. And there'd be no such thing as captured satellites, because by the time gravity trundled out to capture it, it would have flown on past. Put that way, it seems fairly obvious. The idea that it's more of a ...container... fits that pretty well. Field effect, rather than a wave effect.

[@robertlennie7466]

If the sun were to suddenly disappear, we would keep orbiting it for another eight minutes. That’s what a gravitational wave is… until eventually. the curvature of space time snaps back flatter. So the correct answer is c, the speed of light as confirmed by LIGO

[@andrewstallard6927]

While I haven't read the paper yet, I would think this is resolved just by introducing the gravitational field. We don't need to worry about gravity's speed because the gravitational field is already there. If you have an orbit with a gravitational field, it is stable indefinitely if you choose the right initial conditions. Only if the field changes would you have to worry about the rate of that change, which would probably be on the order of c.

[@davidmitchell0722]

Are we differentiating between gravitational waves and the influence of gravity itself here? Also, can't find much else in support of this. Any other papers written on the subject? All I'm seeing is evidence of C.

[@dp0004]

Theoretical, psychological physics. No wonder I am still trying to understand it. A grave situation.

[@faheyplayer]

Unfortunate to hear the five minute long “questions”. Fascinating!

[@johnsheehan5109]

Are the gravitational waves being measured at the three LIGO facilities analyzed for speed?

[@stephenhardman6142]

It has been said that gravity is not a force, but a consequence of the distortion of the space-time continuum by a body of mass. So, when Rupert is talking about the “speed of gravity,” what specifically is he talking about here? It is the speed of movement of a distortion in the space-time continuum, or is it something else? I would also be interested to hear what it is about mass that enables is to distort the space-time continuum and, as mass is said to be equivalent to energy, could energy itself distort the space-time continuum, (albeit to an infinitely smaller capacity m=E/c2)?

[@oldbag3043]

So the speed of gravity depends on Mass in a waitless environment, have i understood this right, does that mean black holes have a spinning center that goes faster than light that distorts space and light

[@enzonava7636]

Tom van Flanders also expanded the concept in his very interesting book, Dark Matter Missing Planets & New Comets, which is full of very interesting “heterodox” ideas

[@harrparr8988]

Does anyone have the link to the paper about gravity?

[@Durziage]

It is linked in the video description

[@wailinburnin]

Limits of consciousness become the issue in this conversation. Reading about Kepler, the biggest takeaway for me is how deceiving the concept and quest for a sacred geometry can be. Unifying love and gravity is a fool’s errand but sincerely does make for a fun comparison the first few times you think about it. The trick, perhaps is to find peace with love and Sapolsky, I feel like I’m fine with it.☮️

[@shiddy.]

thought experiment if there were only 2 particles in the observable universe at the particle horizon opposite of each other describe what happens to the gravitational pull on each other when expansion takes them outside of each other's horizon?

[@zachvinka6764]

Is totally universal energy dropping? What happens in galactic radio emission hot spots?

[@mnjrupp]

According to Dewey Larson's theory Reciprocal System, there is no matter or energy but motion. Matter and Energy are just forms of motion.

[@bmobert]

Gravitational waves travel at c. If not, what is LIGO measuring?

[@neopolyidus]

Outstanding!

[@charlesspringer4709]

Well, in orbital mechanics physicists DO routinely use an adjustment of positions of objects to account for the delays of the speed of light. Further, recently the gravitation wave from the joining of two black holes coincided with the prediction from optical observations. This was from a distance of 1.3 billion years. Light and gravitation waves racing each other for 1.3 billion years and arrive at the same time is pretty convincing. I invented an instrument to directly measure the speed of gravity in 1970. It would not be terribly expensive to build today, maybe $10 million but the other evidence is convincing enough to not bother. There are a couple similar devices invented over the years and a few have been built and so far they detect no difference. I doubt if ancient philosophers have anything to do with this.

[@rogerfroud300]

So how do the gravity wave detectors work? The waves seem to travel at subluminal speed.

[@davidstuart5442]

Excellent to hear

[@pixelpatter01]

Is it possible there is no 'attractive' force of gravity but rather a repulsion between every bit of matter in the universe, with matter providing a shadowing or blocking effect such that two objects appear to attract each other? This would solve the instantaneous gravity problem as the repulsion force would already be in place.

[@sydgriffin7591]

This is a fascinating discussion!

[@BillyMcBride]

Absolutely interesting, thank you both so much for your knowledge and bringing more meaning to my day! I really appreciate the reference to Dante too, whom I think of often in my own work in progress here on KZbin called "Structure of Light." Blessings and love to both of you.

[@Dr_LK]

Speed of light = speed of causality = speed of gravity. Why is there any confusion?

[@colingallagher1648]

I hadn't heard much about the speed of gravity prior to this so I appriacte you linking the paper. On Newtons more mystical, esoteric, and Alchemical interests he did alot outside of math probly given the prevalence of polymaths at the time, but even today and throughout time many physicists and mathematicians have had a serious and deep interest in the esoteric Bohr, Bohm(of the universal light akin to mind as you noted), Oppenheimer, Maxwell, Tesla, Bacon("love is the instinct of the natural motion of the atom" compaired to the aether field) the ancients ofcourse and many more. Gravity as giving and being the great attractor causing things to meet in the midsts is a great way to place it. Plotinus following plato as you noted the living cosmos(world soul or all soul) states that "pure love is the spirit which walks with every being" he also speaks of matter in a tending unitive and energtic way calling it semi real. Even David Hume says "hyle(energy/matter) is ultimately God" .I think the trinity analogy is intriguing as well. I had never heard the story about windmill before so thank you for sharing it. Thanks as well for all these talks much love, God bless, be well, etc ...

[@mystryfine3481]

If the Universe is infinite in space and time then gravity will not pull all the matter back into a black hole.

[@REASONvsRANDOM]

You’re assuming matter is also infinite

[@obiwanduglobi6359]

What exactly qualifies Mr Sheldrake to appear here as an expert on gravity?

[@paulollerhead]

Assuming gravity move so much faster than light the event horizon of the observable universe wouldn’t apply to gravity. Could dark energy therefore be the rest of the universe (unobservable) attracting the observable?

[@risingphoenix8056]

Love is driving the universe because creativity is love. Of course we're talking about unconditional love. This idea of attraction is a bit off because we don't know if gravity is attractive or repulsive. Leveraging Glenn Borchardt's Neomechanical gravity, which is a "push" force resulting from aetheric pressure, we can also understand that baryonic mass is being pushed together by a force which is stronger in the cosmic voids, that force is a high pressure aetheric force produced by aetheric particles that are pushing baryonic matter together. No need for dark matter or dark energy. As for "everything would collapse without dark energy", well that presupposes that the universe is finite such that there is a center that is causing everything to collapse "in". However if the universe is infinite, no expansion, no inflation, no dark matter, no dark energy, just pushes coming from the voids, there would be no collapse, because no center. In fact, current measurements do not support universal expansion everywhere anyway. The idea of expansion is a hypothesis which is used to explain the redshift, which is the only real observation. Expansion has no shred of evidence supporting it. With the infinite universe assumption combined with the "aetheric pressure" assumption, we now have an hypothesis based on 2 variables rather than 4 (inflation, dark matter, expansion, dark energy). And the idea of infinite universe (macroscopic and microscopic) is consuponible with the idea that "its matter all the way down" ie, matter which is not solid, but full of space. You could also say its "holes all the way down", to stop arbitrarily just because of Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle and Planck's length is an artificial barrier. Matter and the motion of matter is all you actually need, and here we gain one more variable, that of the time dimension. If we consider that it's just matter and motion, then time is motion, we don't need a time dimension which is fundamental, throw out Einstein and Minkowski. So we get to a much simpler view of the universe which is as stated, consuponible with the view that matter and space are also infinite all the way down and all the way up. You then can explain everything using laboratory physics instead of proposing hypothesis like inflation, dark matter, expansion and dark energy which cannot be disproven therefore are bad hypothesis to begin with. Consider a water bed. Forces acting on it may ripple about but nothing causes it co contract onto itself. That comes closer to a description of the universe than one that is finite and collapsible. Rupert, Christian theology and its ideas of Trinity are fine, but don't forget that Christians have long insisted that God remains outside his creation, and are responsible in no small way for the reductionist approach taken by the Enlightenment science of the Industrial Revolution. But I appreciate the idea of trying to re-define a Trinity that is at once a spiritual, qualitative description as it is a quantitative scientific description. I do see that this "instantaneous gravity" idea is consonant with the idea of a "high pressure aether" so I think this is a viable alternative to seeing gravity as God's love. Wouldn't the push gravity idea be consistent with the near instantaneous gravity idea?

[@michaelwood3146]

I’m most directly affected by the speed of dust; what can be done to slow this pernicious palliation.

[@patrickquinlan3056]

Yeah, my Mum could travel faster than dust so I had big problems dealing with its accumulation.

[@gareth5000]

Gravity waves and gravity are different things, gravity waves travel at the speed of light. Where as gravity is constant and linked throughout the universe.

[@gareth5000]

Actually, there is no such thing as a gravity wave, the fluctuations show that the fabric of space is elastic.

[@caveyful]

Not to mention gravity gives order as opposed to the entropic universe.

[@chrisryder1073]

Long ago I read the work of an ancient eastern philosopher whos name I now forget who said when one walks from point A to B one does not move from A to B but that B come to A, I thought that was interesting to consider

[@rayagoldendropofsun397]

Motions is the result of Energy. Having doubts, then check your Body MOTION, and feel free to believe it's Gravity, that's on U !

[@enemyofthedeepstate5978]

And I'd been labouring under the delusion that gravity was not actually a force but the warping of space time in which ripples could permeate the field at a measurable velocity. But since the video didn't have stupid music I watched it all. "The speed of gravity" really does inspire some interesting thoughts.

[@JosephLMcCord]

Well - it's still spoken of as being a force (although the phrase, "fundamental interactions" is now preferred over "fundamental forces"). It's a little uncertain in fact - since many physicists think that gravitons likely exist. No quantum theory of gravity yet exists - it's more of a holy grail than an existing thing. But if one ever were successful, it might make gravity look a bit more like the other fundamental forces - again. Presumably, the gravitons would have to cause the space-time curvature. No physicists really understand this, yet.

[@kennypridemore5466]

Traveling at the speed of thought is traveling at the speed of gravity 😊

[@stephensegal5187]

No, thoughts only travel at about 250MPH across neurons, otherwise if Our thought was instantaneous, We would be able to dodge bullets, avoid automobile accidents, never lose Our balance, etc. ...... A.I. Technology can react about 100 times faster than humans, that's one reason why it can be so dangerous to Us.

[@chrisfarmer1141]

How do the reults from the LIGO experiment conform to this hypothesis??? The observations from the arrival of the visual evidence of the occurance of the collision of two black holes was congruant with the observation of the gravitational distortion engendered by the same phenomenon. Surely , this is evidence of the transmission of the energies sharing the common speed. That being the speed at which light travels.

[@joedwillyx3d]

Looking forward to explanation of gravity waves, and timing of delay between detection at different locations. .

[@jamesraymond1158]

Terribly confusing. This talk should have begun with the speed of grav. waves, which was shown to be very close to if not the same as c. Then explain the difference between gravity and grav. waves. This does not appear to be serious science.

[@michaelogrady232]

Serious science is questioning science. No theory is written in stone.

[@lyleswanson7557]

Sounds like the Holtzman effect from the Dune saga.

[@shawncalderon4950]

Rupert is brilliant!

[@kevinpugh3291]

What is a field? Can a field be measured? It is a mathematical concept which may or may not have a physical reality. We could also image that the "ether" was another concept which a field has replaced. But the interferometer apparently disproved the existence of ether - so where is the experiment that proves the existence of a field? So, analogically, gravity is similar to love, this does not mean they are identical.

[@louisbrassard9565]

The wikipedia entry on the speed of gravity en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_gravity says that the speed of gravity is the speed of light in the vacuum. Since gravity in General Relativity cannot violate the theoretical premice that the speed of light in the vacuum is maximum speed of any physical interaction ; nothing in General Relativity can violate what is the foundation of the theory since it would make the theory self-contradicting. None of this means that General Relativity is true and that into another theory the speed of light is not the maximum speed of a physical interaction.

[@jdurrant5633]

spooky action at a distance might be the max speed but i dont know much man.

[@timcarpenter8526]

First time watching this video and I’m intrigued. I have no academic knowledge at all regarding this, no bona fides whatsoever other than an admiration and curiosity of gravity. My question is this; I’ve heard the term “interstellar” used more than once, wouldn’t the term “ intergalactic” be more appropriate regarding the context?

[@MrVaticanRag]

For "warp time" analysis Maxwell's 4 equations are limiting, due toMaxwell's equations exclude "scalar physics" (however are correct for normal use), but when the original 20 equations were reduced (by Oliver Heaviside) to Maxwell's 4 equations, we lost the "scalar potential" so when the medium of "space-time" is "stretched" to its limit - that is where only 4 equations reach their limit. I suggest you take another look at "The "Universal Force" equations "Derived From a More Perfect Union of the Axiomatic and Empirical Scientific Method" (using all the original 20 physical equations) by Dr Charles W.(Bill) Lucas, Jr. in his Vol.1 of the above named publication, which incidently derives all forces - including gravity - in one equation...

[@nicholassteel5529]

Always a pleasure listening to you both.🙏❤️

[@brandyholiday2961]

Thank you very much, Sir. I received a lot of insight from your presentation of your conversation w Mr. Sheldrake. I had written poems about love transcending ‘time’ (space) what-have-you 40 yrs ago. Your efforts here have encouraged me to explore the philosophy of those notions further and; to look for parallels in cosmology. Blessings.

[@JehovahsaysNetworth]

@PlatosPodcast the velocity of the momentum of gravitational attraction and repulsion merges into perpetual motion with the data collection of solutions of magnetic polarity and thermodynamics.

[@fredzurcher7118]

Saying the speed of gravity would be like saying the speed of time. They actually are the opposite direction of the same thing. Direction of gravity is in and the direction of time is out.

[@jasmins203]

Speed of time?! What would that be? How time propagates through the time? Are you on some kind of speed?

[@fredzurcher7118]

Trying to show the silly idea of speed of gravity.

[@jasmins203]

@@fredzurcher7118 it is not silly it is measured

[@user-io1bo5gr2m]

I am writing and producing the art for a grimdark fantasy graphic novel. I have an epic new idea, but I cannot release the cat out of the box yet! This is a Lovecraftian sort of story. I suspect that there is room for the effects of quantum gravitational field forces.

[@donaldjohnson2038]

Wait until we find out that gravity is not correct....hmmmm? There are forces that we cannot and will not ever be able to understand.

[@santerisatama5409]

Fascinating. We do know that shortest duration in gravity is the cycloid arc, shortest duration being relative to the radius of the associated circle. The shortest duration is also the same duration for all positions on the cycloid arc. Thus we can conjecture that gravity is cosmic cycloidic temporal pressure rolling being towards circles and ball shapes.

[@jasonsmith6508]

19:02 Incorrect to say the pendulum powered the clock. Springs or weights power the clock. The pendulum is there to keep accurate time.

[@winningjubbly9712]

20 BILLION times faster than the speed of light? Crossing the 100,000ly of our galaxy in less than one second? I've got to say....I'm a bit sceptical here...

[@davidandrews2883]

I think the concepts of "speed" and "field" have become conflicted in this discussion. The field is ever-present and causes matter to accelerate, thus giving the matter force (mass x acceleration). Gravity and magnetism are fields. It puzzles me why most physicists can not define gravity. Somebody please help me understand why this subject is so complicated. I don't think it is.

[@vladnurk4710]

suggest to measure gravity speed detect with LIGO detect a gravity wave arrival against the visual observation photons as a result of the collision say of 2 white dwarfs or 2 neutron stars

[@brynduffy]

The speed of light is simply the speed of reality or the speed of causation.

[@joelmachak4062]

It seems to me that if gravity traveled at c, then the shapes of galaxies would be very different, and very distorted, as they are moving at fairly high speeds.

[@classicalmechanic8914]

One way speed of gravity could travel faster than light. Two way speed of gravity is still limited by speed of light since gravitational waves travel at the speed of light. Therefore gravity could propagate faster than light but any two way interaction with gravity would still be limited by speed of light.

[@mvs9122]

Wouldn't the gravitational field (one way gravity) of the attractor has existed ever since the attractor existed. The attractor didn't just appear out of thin air, it (or its constituents) always existed.

[@classicalmechanic8914]

@@mvs9122 You are right.

[@maconcamp472]

The Big Bang Theory!! 🐘 🐾 🥁 Each thought represents a bang❗️Higher vibrational thoughts 🐝🐝🐝 will create bigger bangs‼️ Pebbles And Bam Bam!! 🧊 🦕 🧊 🦖 🧊 🦣 🧊 Each grain of sand or pebble, a building block for planets or dark matter!! 🪨 Dark energy aka consciousness, creates the bang!! Supernovae!! 💥 Super Moons!! Flowery moons!! 🌹 Saturn a flowery moon!! Representing the 6th dimension!! More energy!!🪐 🛸 We control it!! 🧞 We’re stars!!✨ Hi, Hey, Hello!!🦜 The more G’s, the better!! They’ll reflect our minds, technology, and more!! G strings!! 👙 👙👙👙 Our brains look like gum!! 🧠 Juicier the better!!!🍏🍋‍🟩🫐🍍🍎🍌🍈🥥🍐🍉🍒🥝🍊🍇🍑🍋🍓🥭 Love everything until it loves you back!! Mosquitos too!!🦟 ❤ Each of us and each galaxy would represent a cell!! 🦠 We’re stars putting ourselves back together again!! Like Humpty Dumpty!! 🥚 🐓 The sky is blue because we’re meant to imagine it as a diamond!! The auroras then create the rest of the spectrum!! 🌈 💎 A purple sky would reflect the heart of the ocean!! An opened mind!! 🤯 The earth purring more!! Purrrrrple rain!!☔️ 🐈‍⬛ 🧶 Each thought to me is a solar flare, which shifts us into parallel worlds!! It’s hard here!!! I’m a peaceful dude, yet my life here has been super difficult!!🥹 Alpha Centauri represents a shift in consciousness!! Dog planet!! We’re riding the alpha waves!! Woof woof!!🐶 🐾 This is our world peace and enlightenment for the world and universe!! All is one!!😇🥳🥰🤩 We’re each a mini universe!!🌌 The 3 Body Problem represents our gut brain, 🍱 heart,❤️ and mind!! 🧠 The moon is a black hole!! 🕳️ A neutrino!! The planet is a colonized moon!!😇🌍👽 The sun is a shapeshifter!! 🌞 Are you and I sculpting together as a team or as individuals??? 🧑‍🎨 Using the moon as a tool!!! 🪨 The Sun is the eye!!👁️ I love the tool/word grinder!!!😮 We’d be Bumping and Grinding!!😂 The Earth is like a refrigerator and the atmospheric pressure is melting or defrosting the stars above, as if they’ve been in the freezer!! 🥶 It would also reflect us krystalyzing and becoming diamonds in the sky!! 💎 💎💎 Lucy becomes Maisie!! 🐒 👽 We could be stars from above aka heaven, melting everything from above, as well! Like a River Running Through It!!! 🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊 Gravitational waves or our thoughts raining down on us!! 🌧️ Unlocking a Secret Garden within and outside of us!!🤫 An Oasis!!!🏝️ 🏝️🏝️🏝️🏝️ Flowing!!! It helps a lot to flow!!!🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊 Letting go, so we can concentrate more and work on our project!! Heaven On Earth!!🌍 👼 Flowers!! 🌺 🌸 💐 and Flow-Ers!!🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊 I know energy is still impurrtant!! 😻 And of course imagination!!! Love!!!💗 🐶 🎾 🧶 🐈‍⬛ To create heaven On Earth, the galaxies collide!! 🌌 Twin flames connect!! 🔥 🔥 We’re creating quantum entanglement!! Ghost particles merging, becoming more like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man!!👻👻👻👻👻👻👻👻 The universe is still the Earth!!⭐️🌍⭐️ We’re seeing it from the insides!! 🕵️ Like we’re inside a volcano 🌋 or wishing well!! The stars and galaxies are like coins!!🪙 The Goonies vibes!! 💀 We’re treasure!! Antarctica is treasure island!! 🐧🇦🇶 Unlocking antimatter!! 🐜 Booby and booty traps exposed!! Planet X!! Hubba Hubba!!🥰 Everything and everyone has been our teacher!!👩‍🏫 3D is like the murky bottom of a bong or volcano!!🌋 The fourth dimension, representing Mars is like the stem of the bong or the volcanos vent!! 👽 Experiencing higher dimensions is like the smoke or magma reaching our mouths 😋 and then circulating through our bodies!! We are the Earth!!🌍 👼 The road less traveled!!!🧳 🌹 Straight up!! 🎈 🎈🎈🎈🎈We’d be super condensed or extremely packed neutron stars!! Like Rigel!! Blueberries!! Antioxidants!! Betelgeuse has evolved into a neutron star!! 🍊🫐 Our long winding road, exploring different dimensions, finally straightening out!! I’m getting Pee Wee vibes!! Large Marge sent me!!🚴😂 We’re vaporized, as if we’ve been smoked or roasted!! 💨 The smoke representing again those compressed neutron stars climbing the higher dimensions of the universe like a chimney!! I’m Mary Poppins, y’all !! ☂️ 🧞‍♀️ It would also represent us as a comet traveling through a wormhole!! 💫 Who me, I’m just a worm!!🐛 🫖 Solving a labyrinth!! 🦉 Solving amaze!!! 🦋 Different energies tell a different story!! 📚 We’re storytellers!! Artists!!🧑‍🎨 We’re energy first!! 🐝 A 12 inch boner is like receiving a foot of snow!!⛄️ 😂 When powered by neutrons and a magnetar energy field, one is like the energizer bunny!!🐰 They’ll keep going and going and going!! 🐇 🐇🐇🐇🐇 If you’re destined to have more than one twin flame, you’re like Frogger, playing leap frog!! Lucy is a sucker for Lillies!! 🐸 🍀 🐸 🍀 🐸🍀🐸🍀🐸 G Force!!!🥳👙🥳👙🥳👙🥳👙🥳 Dorothy’s Ruby red slippers!! ❤❤ Something here in 3D land has to change, yes, mmmmm! Dark Crystal Series!!😍 🧚🏼 We need to get this show rolling!! 🎥 We need our second moon!! Two moons!!! Two Mercurys!! Two black holes!!🕳️ 🕳️ They’ll need some color!! 🌈 Two blood moons!! 🩸 🩸 Two Ruby red slippers!!🥿 🥿 We have to die and become reborn!! Dye!! Dye those slippers red!!😮❤❤😂 Makes complete sense!! 🤯 There’s no place like home!! Home is where the heart is!! Jupiter and the 5th dimension!! 🐸 🍀 Clover Field!!👽 🛸 Time speeds up real fast once we’re there because seeing is definitely believing!! We get excited, hearts start pumping!! 💕 Minds start to open up!! 💜 Oxytocin pumping through our blood!! A love signature!! ✍️ Removing our writers block!! We’re storytellers!! 📚 The two blood moons also like draculas fangs!! Or the fangs of a snake and spider!! A kundalini experience!!!🐍💜 An anti venom!! 🐜 A love bite!! I’m nibbling your ear!! Ringing your ears like church bells!! A liberty bell! 🔔 Heightening your spidey senses!!!🕷️😳🩸🩸 My story just gets juicier!! When is it juicy enough for you, I guess, is the question!! Strawberry Hill!! Cherry Blossoms!!🍒🍓We even got hills named after chocolate!!🍫 Purrthquakes!! 😻

[@richardtrott5275]

Not sure where these people Sheldrake et al are coming from citing a paper that has already been explained (properly) without making ludicrous claims about the speed of gravity - see ‘The speed of Gravity Revisited’ Michael Bison, Michael & Puthoff, Harold & Little, Scott. (1999). The speed of gravity revisited. Recently Van Flandern concluded from astrophysical data that gravity propagates faster than light. We demonstrate that the data can be explained by current theory that does not permit superluminal speeds. We explain the origin of apparently instantaneous connections, first within EM, and then within strong-field GR. Conclusion ‭ ‬Van Flandern is correct in his observation that gravitational attraction is directed towards the instantaneous (unretarded) position of a moving body. We have shown that this fact can be explained without a revision of physics to include superluminal propagation. Not much effort here to present balanced view!!

[@user-jq5bz4wp2e]

I had several long exchanges with Tom Van Flandern many decades ago on the old CompuServe science forum. His stubborn inability to grasp some simple things that a high school student should understand was beyond frustrating. Gravity waves have been linked to visible events a hundred and thirty million lightyears away so...

[@81hlogan]

Oh my. The speed of causality is constant in the vacuum. Light, gravitational influence. It’s all the same. And Newton was actually unsettled by bodies acting at a distance instantaneously. It’s one of his famous quotes.

[@unnikrishnannairkrishnannair.]

Approaching galaxies, is proof, the andromeda and milkyway

[@aivkara]

Man I love Rupert Sheldrake! What a dynamic thinker

[@Nodalthree]

To perceive how "Gravity" manifests from the subatomic realm, you must change the present fundamental concepts of today's science.

[@GlenLittle95]

The mechanism of gravity, in Tom van Flandern's model, can provide some amazing parallels to how love might actually work.

[@ElanMorin]

what has been forgotten here is that gravity is just a description of the curvature of spacetime. changes in that spacetime occur at the speed of light. if the Sun suddenly disappeared (think of the ball on a sheet analogy) it would take 8 minutes for the effect to make it to the Earth. there is no need for anything instantaneous because gravity is an emergent force.

[@risingphoenix8056]

I think you missed the point a bit. The aberration of the sun's apparent position is exactly the issue: there is no aberration. But I do agree that gravity is "emergent", it arises as I argue, and Glenn Borchardt elucidates, from an aetheric pressure on baryonic matter. It does seem like scientific jargon has adopted the word "emergent" which I find somewhat annoying, coming as it does from people with a mechanistic materialist position.

[@stevenwhite8937]

And just what is this magical bending, expanding and accelerating spacetime made of that allows for this mythical curvature? If you say “nothing” then please stop talking of curved spacetime….

[@zandel_zandel]

That's kinda comforting. A lot can be done in 8 minutes.

[@mikev4621]

I see it as 'The curvature of Spacetime' is a way of describing gravity

[@stevenwhite8937]

@@mikev4621 but space must consist of something to be curved. The force of gravity works just fine without adding magic…

[@craigyanta8482]

I believe gravity was supposed to be a by-product of the space time matrix we call space. Then it's an instantaneous mechanism?

[@mechannel7046]

10:40 Love as a real thing, not as feeling. Daemons as go-betweens 11:40 gravity as unity, dark forces push apart 16:25 God = unmoved mover 19:00 gravity vs levity 20:00 windmill, drawing up breath of the spirit 21:10 gravity as final cause, attracting things from future, works thru attraction. Panpsychism 26:00 gravity as a universal soul 27:10 trinity 27:35 electromagnetism. Spirit. Electricity =flow. Magnetism = form. Matter is frozen light. Light =reflection of God

[@farhadtowfiq6767]

Instantaneously of gravity can be explained by the conservation of momentum, only in a holographic model of the universe.

[@stawmy]

I have known this for some time. Podkletnov proved that gravity waves move faster than light. Physicists take great pleasure in telling me that gravity is a 'force' and therefore has no speed. Think about that for a while, and you realise that that is a totally wrong assumption. Gravity wave comms would allow for FTL communication. No-one wants to talk about that.

[@maxtabmann6701]

Rupert brought up another interesting aspect, the dark energy that drives everything apart. If it were a force, then like every force, its strength hass to drop with 1/r^2. The gravitaltion force also drops like that so both gravity and dark energy should get weaker as the universe expands.

[@robertmontague5650]

If all mass in the universe were suddenly or even eventually converted to energy, would gravity still exist? If so, how would we know?

[@jimheaven]

Both energy and mass (the same interchangeable stuff according to Einstein) exert a gravitational pull. Light for example has no mass and yet it is still deflected by gravity. Therefore if all mass was converted to energy, there would still be a gravitational attraction between that energy.

[@robertmontague5650]

@@jimheaven given the above explanation, how would massless energy (photons) curve spacetime? Answer this and you can win the Nobel Prize in Physics.

[@seligseligabc123]

Gravity is not a force of it’s own accord. Gravity is an interaction effect as a result of mass and spacetime, there is no speed to the interactive effect of Gravity since it emerges through the action of other influences instantaneously as mass is mobilised. It is crucial to understand that without mass there is no gravitational effect. Gravity cannot exist without the spacetime / matter interactive mechanisms. Newtonian orientated force acting Gravity on Earth’s surface can be described differently to Einstein’s general relativity orientated space time warping gravitational effect which isn’t a force in the same sense. Data related to Sabine Hossenfelder’s KZbin video that Gravity isn’t a fundamental force in the traditional sense.

[@maxtabmann6701]

I wish that Mark would stay with the physics. If gravity propagates much faster than the speed of light, how would one measure that? Rupert mentioned orbiting black holes, so if you knew where each black hole really is at a given time, you could determine from the phase of the gravity wave this speed, but noone knows the locations. So how could you measure the speed of gravity? Thats what I would like to hear instead of the speed of consciousness or love.

[@michaelogrady232]

Does anybody know what gravity actually is? We know what it does. We can measure it. But what is it? A force? Woefully inadequate answer. Angels pushing things around is also a force.

[@John-pn1px]

The latin word for mother, "mater" was shaped into materia, meaning matter. That said, we have in the gravitational aspect of matter a reflection of god the mother.

[@damienmurray3928]

The Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) should be capable of measuring the exact speed of gravity. If gravity travels faster than light we should eventually be able to use it for communication. Perhaps some advanced alien civilisation is already sending information via gravitational waves?

[@hermancharlesserrano1489]

Gravitons entangled across the fabric of space-time…or a one graviton concept; the universe is itself a single graviton, and all matter is just aggregated impurities, the fluff that collects in the corners of space-time

[@stevefrancis4949]

Ok if your meteor doesn't get close enough to earth. The earths gravity or magnetic attraction wouldn't affect the meteor. So there must be different gravities ? .

[@rauckr09]

Gravitational waves travel at the speed of light.

[@timjohnson3913]

Tom Van Flandern was rebutted in 1999 by Steven Carlip in a response entitled “Aberration and the speed of gravity.” It is curious that the force of gravity points to the instantaneous position of the attracting body, not the older position delayed by the speed of light (electromagnetic charges work the same way). In GR, a component of the calculation is related to the velocity of the attracting body, hence the force is able to point to the instantaneous position of the attracting body. One way to interpret this may be that the gravitational field itself has a velocity (this interpretation is just my opinion, not what Carlip said).

[@Tordvergar]

Thank you for citing that. I read Van Flandern's paper over 20 years ago, after my physicist father recommended it to me. I find most of the paper compelling, except for his thoughts on the ether. I corresponded briefly with him about that, but am not satisfied with the response. Some of Van Flandern's speculations since then are pretty extreme, in my view. Also, though I accepted the argument that the speed of gravity is >> c, Van Flandern also posited that gravitational waves would propagate at c, which seems to have been experimentally verified by LIGO since then. For my part, I can't square a speed of gravity >> c, with the speed of gravitational waves being limited to c. I'll read Carlip's paper now!

[@timjohnson3913]

@@Tordvergar Here is an applicable quote from pg 1 of the paper: “It is well known that if a charged source moves at a constant velocity, the electric field experienced by a test particle points toward the source’s “instantaneous” position rather than its retarded position. Lorentz invariance demands that this be the case, since one may just as well think of the charge as being at rest while the test particle moves. This effect does not mean that the electric field propagates instantaneously; rather, the field of a moving charge has a velocity-dependent component that cancels the effect of propagation delay to first order.”

[@Tordvergar]

@@timjohnson3913 That statement didn't help me a lot because the sun and planets are all in accelerated motion, so their steady-state "expected" position won't be along a trajectory. But the rest of Carlip's paper clarifies this, and in fact he agrees with Van Flandern that higher order terms have to be accounted for. Van Flandern's paper is more accessible, much more actually, unless you've got an advanced degree in mathematics or physics! To me the most compelling parts were that there is no disconnect between the speed of gravity and the speed of gravitational waves. and that the energy carried off in the waves is on the order of v^5 / c^5. That is very testable relative to neutron star pair orbital decay, and Carlip says that matches well with observation. It would be fun to have a philosophical discussion about Noether's theorem relative to what Carlip is arguing. On that point there is a bit of danger of circular reasoning, it seems to me at first blush. Anyway, a big Thank You for citing that paper!!

[@timjohnson3913]

@@Tordvergar Yeah if you are trying to work through the specific math of the effect of gravity on the Earth, there are a lot of things that complicate the situation (e.g. the other planets). But if you are conceptually wondering whether the speed of gravity is c or >>c, then I think Carlip shows how the mainstream view that gravity travels at c makes sense, which counters Van Flandern’s view that gravity must travel >>c.

[@euqinimodllewdlac7477]

In my opinion, gravity is the same affect that holds the bond of atoms together. More dense the matter will produce stronger gravitational force upon objects within that environment.

[@K22channel]

Two of the Greatest talkers on the subject...bringing us from one galaxy to the other at the speed of gravity 🛸

[@davidmudry5622]

www.nist.gov/world-trade-center-investigation/study-faqs/wtc-towers-investigation FAQ 31 "the top of the WTC tower came down essentially in free fall" kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGSvm32bmsaYbJo

[@observerone6727]

Fishes that are aware that they're in water trying to understand water without the ability to cross a boundary to get outside of the water 😅

[@oidbio2565]

the speed of gravity m/s³ ?

[@arizonacutlery547]

Gravitional waves?

[@bjorkstrand7773]

7 different speeds = 7 chakras

[@christophergame7977]

I think the gravity propagates at the same speed as light. I am surprised that this is questioned.