The Spirit Ashes and Co-op Argument | Elden Ring

[@ratatoskr6324]

I'm not telling you what to do.

[@catanyag]

Unfortunately for you, I watched the video before commenting so I already knew this.

[@AARon11414]

That you need to comment this is emblematic of the current state of the emotional health of *people who comment on things online.* Great video.

[@JT_No_Money]

Use whatever u want but don’t expect others to feel like your playing on the same playing field with them because the game becomes completely different when using every possible advantage available.

[@chrizzlyx]

Stop telling me what to do

[@realityvanguard2052]

Spirit ashes destroys the true potential value of what a Souls game can be. A Souls game presents you with a world so worthy of exploration, it inspires and motivates players to face-down challenges, which they themselves might have previously thought themselves incapable of overcoming. In our modern age of convenience and ease-of-use, and avoidance of "suffering" in all forms, at the expense of true personal growth, the Souls series acts as a catalyst capable of helping people realize that they can in fact overcome challenges, which they themselves believed to be impossible for them. Souls is a series that is literally capable of helping people better themselves. Somehow, when I try to explain this to people, they take it as an elitist humble-brag and nothing more, "oh you think you're better than me?". When that is only half of the message I am trying to convey, I am saying, you can be better than you are now, if you just had the motivation to try...

[@Ziostorm]

I’m not a gatekeeper. I summoned for a few bosses during my first run of Dark Souls back in the day. But I have never seen a souls game like Elden Ring where so many players I invade have absolutely no concept of how to dodge an attack or have less than 500hp at the end of the game. This is the first time I’ve seen players in such massive amounts get carried by an overleveled phantom since level restrictions were removed. Phantoms used to feel like part of the world, where a chance encounter from a player converged on your world in a time of need, yet now co-op has turned into guides, carries, and secondary markets for overpowered early game weapons. I understand the appeal of multiplayer, though I can’t help but feel something has been lost in the process.

[@Battleguild]

*Sweats nervously with my 9 Vigor and Primal Glintstone Blade caster build.*

[@IYukimuraSanadaI]

I think the main reason why you tend to see many players that lack the concept of dodging and low HP, is because ER is probably their first entry to the Souls-Borne series. I notice it is either Dark Souls III or ER that tend to be the entry for many players into the soulsborne series, hence the entire concept is foreign from their perspective.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

⁠@@IYukimuraSanadaI I guess it’s more telling how unpopular action games are now. Dodging is a part of pretty much every action game. It’s like playing a shooter and somebody you play with doesn’t understand that there’s an aim button. Or they don’t understand that shooting enemies in the head does more damage. I think to more overall action game fans it’s a bit surprising to find there’s people who don’t even understand the basics of how these games function.

[@ni9274]

Elden Ring was massively popular so it's expected that a much bigger portion of the players will be "casual", especially compared to Dark Souls games which were niche and attracted players who already like challenging games or souls games in general

[@realityvanguard2052]

Spirit ashes destroys the true potential value of what a Souls game can be. A Souls game presents you with a world so worthy of exploration, it inspires and motivates players to face-down challenges, which they themselves might have previously thought themselves incapable of overcoming. In our modern age of convenience and ease-of-use, and avoidance of "suffering" in all forms, at the expense of true personal growth, the Souls series acts as a catalyst capable of helping people realize that they can in fact overcome challenges, which they themselves believed to be impossible for them. Souls is a series that is literally capable of helping people better themselves. Somehow, when I try to explain this to people, they take it as an elitist humble-brag and nothing more, "oh you think you're better than me?". When that is only half of the message I am trying to convey, I am saying, you can be better than you are now, if you just had the motivation to try...

[@bonaquador]

I was staunchly anti-summon my first playthrough, but after using them and testing different spirits on mini-dungeon bosses and overworld encounters that don't feel that rewarding to solo, I had so much fun. Highly reccommend interacting with the mechanic in that way.

[@Romapolitan]

I have tried it, but it's just really and I mean really unfun to me. And so far having played through the whole game solo 3 times was just as fun as playing the other Soulsborne games solo.

[@hellogoodbye3786]

This, to me is a very balanced take. We don't have to strictly choose yes or know as a law for the whole game. Certain exceptions can exist. It won't be a popular opinion, but i personally prefer fighting Radahn with summons. To me it aggrandizes the experience of the festival, it's fun. Not everyone is gonna agree with that, and that's alright, but if by the end of the game we all want to kiss Fromsofts feet for delivering such a splendid experience, can we really say that's wrong?

[@buckyhurdle4776]

I only use spirit ashes that compliment my build. Like my frenzy flame build has the frenzy merchant, pyro build has the soldjars or fortune. This is way more fun. Now, I get excited when I see a 2v1 boss, because I get to use another part of my build.

[@Retro_Rainer]

​@@buckyhurdle4776 Xv1 bosses, that's when I use spirits. as soon as I realised that most bosses that are more than a 1v1 aren't really fun nor balanced, I started using them shits. they rarely complement each other, if at all. from used to be better in regards to multi bosses. I wonder what came first, the spirit summons, or the many multi bosses.

[@manuelmialdea5127]

Way too many players consider this a do or don't matter but I think the game is inconsistent on when it's better or worse. It depends, at least to me.

[@xFrakster]

Feels like most commenters didn't even watch the video. He is not telling you guys to not use whatever you deem to be fun, and he's not shaming you for using summons. So why is every single top comment about that.

[@SirSaladAss]

As Ratatoskr himself said, it's a sensitive issue, so people tend to jump the gun and let their emotions dictate their actions.

[@hellogoodbye3786]

I think it is mostly the idea, the argument itself. Most people, i think, already know, can guess, ratatoskr doesn't give a shit how john doe over there plays the game, he's just commenting on the argument. What is silly is that the argument still exists.

[@audunms4780]

because that is mutch easier than engaging with the work of ratatoskar.

[@xIQ188x]

Haven’t watch the video yet, but going by past videos I’d guess because he says one way is a more “correct” experience while stressing how toooootally okay it is if you wanna do it wrong lmao

[@failegion7828]

​@@xIQ188xaround 2:10 basically nailed it.

[@maras00jr49]

I think it's undeniable that the game expects you to use them against double boss fights. That's how i used them on my first run. The double Crucible Knight is infinitely more fun with a summon, turning the fight into a 2v2. There are plenty more examples, that's just the first that came to my mind.

[@tristenatorplaysgames6833]

I like gank fights usually. There’s something fun about coming out on top in a 2v1

[@HeyTarnished]

This also applies to any Souls gank bosses ever, but kudos to ER for providing the option to use them as it's very cool & fun sometimes.

[@Galamoth06]

Ornstien and Smough: Are we a joke to you?

[@evanbaxter7356]

I have 500 Plus hours and have beat the game at level 1, and I definitely feel that Godskin Duo and crucible Duo are more fun as a 2v2, they were designed with the expectation that players were going to be using at least a spirit Ash, unlike ornstein and smough which were designed with a 2V1 in mind

[@maras00jr49]

@evanbaxter7356 100% This is why I have always disagreed with the notion that ER "killed" the 2v1 or 1.5 boss fights from DS1/3. ER never had any intention to implement that type of a boss fight. They created the spirit ash system and wanted a place for players to use them, and that's the side dungeons. There's a reason most of the spirit summons and double boss fights are found there, not to mention that the items to upgrade them are also found there.

[@SchroederMH]

The nuance here that Ratatoskr briefly alludes to near the end-but which I think is actually super important-is that there are so many different spirit ashes, as well as 10 levels of upgrades of each. That’s 64 types X 10 power levels. You could theoretically rank them from #1 most powerful (probably a fully upgraded Mimic Tear) to #640 (a level #1 rat ash or something). I suspect a lot of “no ash” purists will try a level 10 Mimic Tear to see what all the fuss is about, and then rightfully conclude that summon completely trivialized the boss. But many of the other 639 options do far less. In many cases, a spirit ash might live 20 seconds, and becomes a tool to get in one free heal or one free buff before it dies.

[@Galamoth06]

When I used spirit ashes, it was almost exclusively the two skeletons. Completely useless for dealing actual damage, but a nice occasional distraction for observing the boss and learning their patterns. Plus they can respawn, so if they get lucky they'll be around longer than some of the tougher upgraded spirit ashes.

[@SchroederMH]

@@Galamoth06Yeah that’s a great pick! Up until Elden Ring, I played the whole FromSoft catalog as a “no summons” guy. With ER, I was happy to use some mid-tier spirit ashes off and on. In my experience, it rarely trivialized a fight, but would occasionally work as an “I get it” button where I could clear the boss after 45 minutes with a few mistakes, rather than need to play another full hour to “show” the game I could do it virtually flawlessly. I used to enjoy the grind of learning the fight so thoroughly I could beat it in my sleep, but with a couple kids, a busy job, etc., I’m happy to be able to calibrate now.

[@BirdMoose]

I 100% feel this, my favorite summon is Latenna because she is a character with a story, but also because she forces the player to play around/ protect her due to her own lack of mobility. Weaker summons feel like a great addition to the game, its just the super strong ones that can essentially solo the game which hurt many players experience.

[@normalrachael]

@@BirdMoosethat’s why she’s my favorite too!!

[@rosameltrozo5889]

Why wouldn't you use the best ash if you're going to use ashes though?

[@alielsakkout7415]

i find summons way more fun to use when i'm fighting multiple enemies, but i prefer fighting single enemies solo to get into that soulsy dance and flow state that summons kinda interrupt

[@nebky]

Same, if I'm fighting more than one boss I nearly always summon. Just makes those fights way more enjoyable.

[@buckyhurdle4776]

@@nebky I summon Solaire every time I play through Dark Souls. Do I need him? No. Is O&S more fun with Solaire? Every time

[@thecobe-lee9674]

Same, I summon for ganks and particularly shitty encounters, solo everybody else

[@Kintaku]

I pretty much fully agree about coop, but find Ashes more murky. As someone who played MOSTLY blind, discovering the ashes was fun. And not using the new ones I just found would have felt like a bad way to play the game. That said, I do fully agree when it comes to single bosses, the game feels better when you get into the “dance.” But if your advice is for people to play blind, it stands to reason that the majority of player not accustomed to Souls games will end up using the ashes as a result of exploration.

[@TheYoungSapling]

I think the accessibility and volume of ashes says a lot about From Software’s intent with the mechanic. They are intended to be used as a tool by players that are so inclined to use them (where allowed), or need to use them to progress. I think a lot of players really struggle with the difficulty of the game, and ashes alleviate a lot of this trouble. They’re also just fun - the variety of them, the upgrade paths, the designs.

[@Verchiel_]

as someone that just recently (past few months) really started enjoying the game despite trying to get into it since release, as a first souls like. I fully embrace them. I'm personally not looking to for the big challenge part, i don't get that "fight boss 15 times and get a huge dopamine rush looking for the next boss once i beat it" effect that a lot of fromsoft fans do. And i do in fact use the tear mimic because having another version of you is just cool. Even with it i wouldn't say the spirit ashes make the game a cake walk. Parts where spirit ashes aren't allowed aside, most of them end up dying during a fight and for certain bosses like Maliketh (the boss i got to just today), i get my ass handed to me still. Rune loss as a mechanic is another thing that just doesn't appeal to me, having to backtrack to where you died is already punishment enough for me. Though to make up for using spirit ashes and disabled rune loss, i am using a first person mod which is what got me to enjoy the game a lot more, not really feeling it to be that much more difficult.

[@keziarosenstock3153]

They definitely are very fun to play with when you’re not steamrolling bosses. I honestly love putting spells on my mimic and seeing all the combos it can do since it has unlimited fp and doesn’t have to deal with scrolling through the spells

[@Galamoth06]

Some people just want to get through the game and see what there is to see.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

@@Verchiel_ I’m confused how a first person mod would make the game more enjoyable. I’ve played a similar mod in fromsofts previous games and I found it extremely disorienting. Is it an immersion thing? Just seems like a very weird thing to make the game more enjoyable to me. Have you just not played third person games before? Genuinely a bit confused.

[@jordanparis964]

You’re meant to struggle with the game. That is a core part of Souls games. Struggling through and over coming obstacles.

[@feldered]

I did not use spirit summons for most of my first playthrough because I played blind and never got back to church to get the bell from Ranni. Still I find that especially duo and trio bosses were originally made to be fought against with summons because they attacked you together. Then they changed it for other to wait on background to please those who refuse to use summons.

[@enman009]

Here's a fun tip: most duo bosses don't attack simultaneously when you maintain distance: only one engages after the other, but have to give them distance. Patch 1.04 introduced that change, and boy does it make the difference compared to release ER.

[@minerman60101]

The game throws that and the wondrous physick in the Twin Maiden Husks' store if you skip the main places you acquire them

[@fastenedcarrot9570]

​@@enman009 Honestly, the Gargoyles barely feel like they've changed from that while the Crystalian groups and some other duo bosses now feel far too easy. During the fight I'm actually wondering why one of the is stood there doing absolutely nothing.

[@enman009]

@@fastenedcarrot9570 Yeah, Gargoyles Duo, the worst gank in the game, is barely any different. Whereas Crucible Duo and other random combinations actually feel like they allow you to breathe. For someone that doesn't use spirits, I'm glad that they're not spamming me to death.

[@Dr_Donald_Duck]

I'd argue there are areas where the intended experience IS using a spirit ash. Like shown, in Godricks Courtyard or in some Multi-Enemy Fights like Watcher + Gargoyles adds.

[@kimlee6643]

If anything, after some thought, we can argue that the intended experience is to be trapped in 2v1 fights, specifically for them to differ from any other similar fight (same enemy) that results in the prototypical 1v1. You're likely supposed to be challenged by two watchers and two gargoyles, as poor a challenge as those are. If the reaction to one godskin is a 1v1 where you never use spirit ashes, is godskin duo an implication that it's finally time to use them? At the last stretch of the game? I dunno, I find this reasoning dubious.

[@viktorthevictor6240]

​@@kimlee6643 Considering the godskin duo also lets you summon Bernahl, yeah, it's pretty obvious that's the implication. The ability to summon for 1v1 bosses is most likely just there for newcomers and under leveled players

[@puntacana7550]

Radhan is prime example too

[@user-yw5me7pb2x]

cope

[@reign1594]

I've already beaten the entire game without summons, for the rest of my runs I've used summons.

[@Sablemae76]

I've done playthroughs with and without spirit ashes and it's sometimes easier and sometimes not. Their health goes down faster but the bosses can feel unpredictable and chaotic. They can turn on a dime from attacking your ash to attacking you. There's a bit of a give and take with ashes.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

If you’re already good at fighting the bosses co-op can absolutely make them harder. A lot of their normal behaviour breaks and it’s also harder to position yourself correctly.

[@depalodor]

However, the give that you get from bosses having seemingly random attack patterns because multiple targets break their AI isn't worth much imo.

[@Christopher-eq1rn]

@@depalodorit’s not their ai breaking, it’s an aggro system and differing move priorities.

[@ardgwatlol]

Worth noting that you can actually use both NPC summons and spirit ashes at the same time. Spirit ashes are only exclusive with player summons, not NPC summons.

[@samthompson261]

I went in blind and didn't roomba, as those were Miyazaki's two pieces of advice. I used spirit ashes because when I found them I thought they were dope and didn't know about this online discourse lol. Had an absolute blast.

[@thesunthrone]

Yeah, like half of the side dungeons give you spirit ashes as a reward for clearing them. It's really weird to even try to argue that using them is against the intended experience.

[@alrightalright4585]

What does Roomba mean?

[@samthompson261]

@@alrightalright4585 going everywhere and doing everything systematically as to not miss any content, like a roomba.

[@enman009]

Ignoring internet discourse tends to be the sanest and mature way to go, since it allows you to avoid unnecessary negativity, ie: using anything other than pure melee or enjoying the bosses.

[@alrightalright4585]

@@samthompson261 Ohh, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. That's how I did my first playthrough... Never Again!

[@sk8legendz]

As a mimic main to solo beating the whole game my take is that The game will hand your ass to you on a platter while your +10 mimic watches in horror. It doesn't save you from being bad at the game So I don't view summons as any more helpful or putting the game on easy mode anymore than broken bleed builds. They'll carry you sure, but only so far. You still have to learn the game. RL1 wretch club looks easy by Ongbal. But id have a hard time. Likewise there's people stuck on malenia right now with their ROB and Mimic combo. Because they just never got good summons and OP weapons are like a car, they'll get you home faster than walking but if it dies, you better hope your legs work I think new players that feel helpless to advance should use EVERYTHING to enjoy this game, I think players who need a challenge have plenty of options available. And I'm glad fromsoft made it this way.

[@buckyhurdle4776]

Summoning living, breathing, human players in Dark Souls will always be infinitely stronger than any spirit ash. People have been getting carried through the entire game since Demon's Souls. For some reason, no one ever engages with me when I bring this up. I do not understand what the difference is supposed to be. If the Fromsoft game has multiplayer, you can be carried. It has always been like this.

[@sk8legendz]

@buckyhurdle4776 I agree Player summons are the real carry. I quit using them after a guy nuked malenia in front me an the other summon lol

[@lunamanson9681]

Nah sorry, the game's AI is completely geared towards the bosses fighting a single enemy. Most fights are completely trivialized by having a summon there. How do I know? I'm leveling a new character for the DLC and using summons to rush all the fights. You don't need to know patterns, you don't need to know bosses, you just summon and attack when the boss turns around. Repeat once or twice maybe if you summon dies too early. Using them is whatever, people can do what they like. But having done a run without any summons at all and now one using them, they're literally different games.

[@jackalx2154]

This comment is complete lies. If you use meta builds, cheese tactics and consumables you can absolutely shred everything with mimic tear.

[@shevankaseneviratne1724]

@@buckyhurdle4776 yeah but back then it cost rare commodities. In bloodborne u needed insight which was finite in the open world and the game's bosses werent designed around summons cuz of that. And spirit ashes dont increase boss health in elden ring. Only players that are summoned do.

[@shadowxps]

I think there’s a line between people who use mechanics in a game to engage with it in a sincere way and those who don’t. I definitely know people who used cheese and ashes to undermine parts of their experience intentionally. I felt like this originated from a notion that the game was designed to be malicious and therefore nothing was off the table. Maybe that was fun for them? I think this is very different from someone using ashes or co-op to simply enjoy the mechanic. Some of my favorite memories come from solo fights and co-op shenanigans I think because no matter how I was playing I was engaging with the game sincerely.

[@LAK_770]

Everyone should give themselves a chance to solo bosses. It’s always easier than it seems - what feels like total domination is often just a matter of calming down and noticing/fixing few big mistakes. The mindfulness and patience necessary for this approach seems to be rare though. Once you’re in this habit though, spirit ashes can be an extremely fun way to approach replays, adding a ton of spice and variety. Try out different ones, find favorites, buff and support them, etc. One fun activity is to try and keep your Miranda Sprouts alive lol

[@Battleguild]

I actually wish Spirit Ashes was a spell school rather than an area limited consumable. Though if they were to do this, the ashes would have to be readjusted appropriately.

[@zacharron]

That's a cool idea. Have a certain amount of Ashes available for everyone but make a school of magic that specializes in them and can use a larger variety of them and make them overall stronger.

[@Battleguild]

@@zacharron If they were both items and spells, I guess they could be balanced in this way: Summoning Bells as a new Caster Focus (Levels with Grave and Ghost Wort, as a counterpart to Standard and Somber upgrade materials) Spirit Ashes can be leveled and scale as normal. Spell version scales off the Summoning Bell instead. Item version is one use and lasts until defeated, Spell version stays around for only a few actions before dispersing and can be summoned again multiple times as FP permits but only one can exist at a time. Summoning a new spirit while another is active, will unsummon the oldest spirit. (Think of the Spirit Summons in Rennala's 2nd Phase.) Grave Spirit Ashes only require 1 Spell Slot, while Ghost Spirit Ashes requires 2.

[@zacharron]

@@Battleguild let's write to FromSoft about it.

[@vincentblack7032]

The game is already a gank squad no need

[@DeadpoolX9]

Holy shit a USE FOR ARCANE!

[@ni9274]

I think we need to acknowledge that Elden Ring is the type of game you can enjoy even if you don't engage with the boss fight mechanic and use cheese , there is still the feeling of exploration, the feeling of becoming stronger and beating boss with the items that you found in the world, the lore, the intricate level design.

[@KulHadar]

Serious question: If you don't summon and don't use cheese could you potentially enjoy that feeling of getting stronger and beating bosses more fully? That's fundamentally what Rata others on his side (me included) are arguing. Not that there's some mark of shame on people who summon or use cheese, but that doing so might rob them of an experience they could enjoy even more.

[@zacharron]

Or after beating their head against a boss 20 times they might just quit and never get to experience all the other wonderful things these games have to offer.

[@aureateseigneur5317]

​@@KulHadarSerious question, you understand that what you find enjoyable isn't what everyone else finds enjoyable, yea?

[@KulHadar]

@@aureateseigneur5317 Completely. I'm not demanding anyone play my way, I'm suggesting they give it a try. Because they might discover something they don't yet know they will enjoy. And if it turns out they don't enjoy playing that way then fine, they go back to what works for them. I don't see why anyone (not pointing this at you btw, just speaking geenrally) feels the need to get defensive at the suggestion they try playing a different way. It's like trying a new food, maybe you like it, maybe you don't. But what's the harm in giving it a shot? Or in asking someone to give it a shot?

[@KulHadar]

@@zacharron Only 20? Do you have any idea how many attempts I've put on Malenia, for a measly 3 wins? Jokes aside, if what Rata and I are suggesting its too much for a given person then fine, they play their way to enjoy the other stuff. We're just suggesting they try playing our way first because they might end up enjoying it, or enjoying certain facets of the game more fully. Doesn't have to be about summons and boss fights either. One of the most magical moments I had in Elden Ring was first discovering the lift in Mistwood down to Siofra River, while frantically running away from a Runebear. I refused to use any guides on the first playthrough, so it would be full of organic moments of discovery, so I could immerse myself more in exploration. And I was rewarded for doing that. Same principle applies to summons/cheese, you might find more reward not using them and winning anyway, than using them to win. It's not a guarantee, but neither is the advice a demand. It's a suggesstion for a potentially better result.

[@timkom2289]

Sometimes I wonder why is this so heated topic. Obviously its important game mechanic given you by game developers and therefore use it as you want. The argument against spirit ashes most likely coming from veteran Dark souls players who want to get the Dark souls feeling and have The Dance with bosses. If you want to focus more on the exploration and lore and don't get stuck on every boss for hours, go for it and its perfectly fine. And remember, if someone tells you something like: "You have to go solo to have proper Elden ring experience." it usually mean: "You are not having MY dark souls nostalgia enhanced experience and I don't like it".

[@LycanDreams9159]

My memory is famously poor but I do remember there being an interview with Miyazaki or some other dev saying that they went out of their way to include more aoe attacks on bosses to balance them around ashes. You can see this best in the first major boss godfrey who is almost all aoe. It’s literally all over the bosses in this game. You can argue that maybe fromsoft didn’t do a good enough job at balancing for ashes but I think it’s disingenuous to say that there was no accounting for ashes. In my first play through I used mostly wolf ashes( because I’m a degenerate furry) and they were so frail I more often than not went out of my way to get back Agro from the boss so that they could last longer. It was a challenge all on its own to beat a boss with even one wolf alive. The fun of hunting with the wolves is better than worrying about the lost purity of the one on one dance when most ashes can’t last a whole boss fight anyway. Of course I know most ashes are stronger than the wolf ashes and I would agree with you in telling people to save legendary ashes like mimic tear or the headless mausoleum ash for a second playthrough. Normal ashes though I do not believe warp the fight enough to warrent treating them like mimic ashes.

[@rogalcorn734]

They should have done it so that if you use spirits, the bosses move faster and have bigger AoEs. And if you don't use spirits, then they could have tuned them to be more forgiving. Definitely could have balanced them better, I agree. Maliketh and Godfrey in particular. They move so fast, hit so hard (yes I had 56 vigor), have long combos with infinite stamina, and massive AoE's compared to previous games. It feels like they thought everyone would fight the last few bosses with summons, and had to hastily up their difficulty in response.

[@-TriP-]

I started playing on launch and for most of my first playthrough my character was pretty much a jack of all trades master of none. I experimented with all the different mechanics -- magic, skills, spirit ashes, crafting, etc and if an NPC summon was available I would summon them because in DkS2 and one time in DkS3 there were rewards associated with this and I wanted to be as thorough as I could. I wanted to experience everything the game had to offer. Then for my second playthrough I did a level 1 run using only melee. I guess what I'm saying is that personally I think it's more important to get to know the game in its' entirety before you set yourself a difficult challenge. I know several streamers that only ever do speedruns of ER and yet know _nothing_ else about it, which I find a lot sadder than someone relying on help to get through it.

[@DarkFay]

Tbh at first I was like. “Why tf do we have these” Now I’m like. “Omg I hope the dlc has more of them so I can do cool combos and fight along side amazing looking allies.”

[@Sir_Vaza_JTV]

I didnt even know I could summon help my first playthrough 💀 Would totally have pulled some summons out on malenia

[@noanswer1864]

Considering what you can do to any boss yourself if you are willing to properly prepare, use all the summons you like. 90% of the summons you receive will only be good for pulling a bit of agro before they pop. Some are quite strong, but you get them later. The people saying otherwise either ignored them all from the beginning, or they don't want you to have any backup when their failed arena fighter ass shows up in your world to R2 spam at you. If you're not planning on PVPing, ignore every last one of these people. Play with your friends. Summon your favorite spirits and empower them to their fullest. Explore the map, and enjoy the world. There's as much to the exploration and sight-seeing in this game than there is combat.

[@imhere5114]

My first playthrough I tried to not use summons but that first game is so tough. Even as someone who played other games it felt incredibly different so I started using summons and I enjoyed the game way more. I don’t understand why people feel the need to bash people for their play style

[@forkbundle3073]

Before Elden Ring released, I had played dark souls 3 for a ridiculous amount of time. Truly, I had to have clocked 10000 hours in that game. I played it so much that I hated it and never wanted to see or hear from it ever again. I can still see the layout of every map in my minds eye, I could draw a map for you of every level and how they connect. So, with that being said, I was pretty confident that I would not have trouble with Elden Ring. I was sure that it would be easier for me than most people even if I was a little rusty. I was wrong. WAY WAY off wrong. I struggled to fight even basic enemies, I didn't know their attack patterns or any of their moves yet. I spent at least half of the game using the starting straight sword the mage gets because for some reason I couldn't find any weapons. I swear I went into dungeons and fought all sorts of enemies but nothing ever dropped a new weapon my character could use! Every tough boss fight boiled down to me scrounging together as many advantages as I could just to barely scrape by and get to the next area. Oh and you know when I got that mimic tear I brought that dude to EVERY boss. any time they would let me summon him he was coming out. With all that being said, Even as an experienced player, Playing Elden Ring was like playing my first dark souls all over again. It's important to remember that new players are not going to understand how leveling up and upgrades work. They very well may have one 300 damage magic infused straight sword for half the game. And about 30 vigor? We didn't know how much we'd need back then. Especially towards the end of the game holy geez Maliketh hits hard. Just remember that for a new player, things like steering their character and leveling can seem incredibly difficult. I do not blame anyone for leaning on Omen killer Rollo for the whole game, as I did. That's how I beat Malenia, Rollo squashed her and I spammed sword of night and flame AoWs at her. And you know what? I still felt accomplished and celebrated when I beat her.

[@MegaLotusEater]

You had 10,000 hrs in DS3 and struggled with basic bosses in Elden Ring? How is that possible? I can't fathom it.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

I can't believe Miyazaki keeps accidentally putting magic and summons into every single one of his games, even though you're not supposed to use the features that have always been a part of the game! Why is it that people can't just play a video game?

[@Terminarch]

Ashes are in such a weird place. Fundamentally they are a handicap, no doubt... and potentially such a powerful one as to utterly trivialize some content. On the other hand, they also fundamentally change "the dance" to such a degree (when not outright removed) that it enables new strategies. Get a beefy summon to play support if you'd like... or maybe spec tank with a ranged summon. That's a totally different experience and I'm glad it's not limited to co-op or NPCs anymore. Opening up the player for not only cooperative strategies but also *specialized* strategies is great. Otherwise in every fight every solo player MUST be tank & dps & support. Imagine raid level content lmfao

[@kurenian]

The peak of co-op was fighting with Siegward and Anri against Yhorm and Aldrich, as well as Burnt Ivory King. There was at least a thematic meaning, character meaning, buildup to those. There was a meaning for those fights being co-op and that made them special. Quality over quantity imo from a thematic perspective. Would also be cool to have invaders invade during boss fights a la looking glass knight.

[@Jbswe]

Champions of fia are real players

[@robertwalton434]

Sunbro here. Rata lumped in looking everything up on fextra to co-op. Often the players that need the most help are struggling because they looked stuff up, but can’t distinguish between good and terrible advice. Common noob set up: Radagon sorseal, powerstanced rivers with moonveil, heavy armor (at the cost of fat rolling). I’ve even seen people use carian retaliation on the bell long after the damage was patched. There’s a certain brand of noob that need sunbros for endgame. Am I going to use ashes in the dlc? No. Am I going to carry people that can’t dance? Yes.

[@Knucklebreaking]

THIS! Idk why he didn't tackle things separately. I understand his argument about how coop might be tacked on but Spirit Ashes in particular are VERY in depth and a lot of nuance between them, not to mention there's a extremely high chance that blind players will run into them at some point. A lot if not most of the mini dungeons have rewards for them and they have their own upgrading system. You can even argue that they have more to them than even the flasks. Also playing multiplayer blind with friends or anons is VASTLY different than looking up guides. Your experience will massively change in both scenarios. As a guy that's played with anons your still going to miss a lot and it's up to luck at that point. Playing blind with friends also doesn't add a lot of the issues he mentioned.

[@iampain5737]

Co-op Mod was the best thing that happened for the co-op side of things for this game.

[@-Mothy-]

Specially because it gets rid of invasions. I just want to play with my friends without having some red cunt coming uninvited and interrupting us

[@DoomsdayMayBeOkay]

I don't use the Ashes because i think it ruins the sense of accomplishment for me personally. Same think with DS and Bloodborne. I would never shame a player that decides to use them though...

[@juanhurtado7244]

I do.

[@rogalcorn734]

@DoomsdayMayBeOkay. It ruined the immersion for me. I remember Godfrey's speech after I beat him felt awkward, because all I did was sucker punch him back and forth with my mimic.

[@Firechub3229]

This is worded so perfectly. People get way too offended when you tell them the game isnt meant to be played with summons

[@balazshodossy8886]

I think in this discussion a really important factor is lost, it's not just exploration and overcomong challanges that are extremely valuable in Elden Ring (and all the souls games for that matter). My first Fromsoft game is ER, and my first character took 120 hour to play through the game, but i started (on patch 1.08 i might add) because i wanted to experience the world after watching other people's videos and lore explorations, i had less interest in thr "challenge". Since then i have more than 800 hours in the game, i finished the game (all great runes, plus whatever i feel like or i need for my build) with every weapon class, without summons/multiplayer, and i learned the rythm of the combat, and i think it's a masterpiece, but that's not what got me to play this game. I think this is the first title where the degree of freedom for the players enjoyment is higher than ever before, you are granted the tools to choose your own adventure, even on the rpice of it being less curated. In this sense i think these comparisions are pointless, because ER gives more way to enjoy it with less restrictions, even if some of the DS games can provide a better experience in some of those fields, ER is the only one that is this diverse, and i would say it gives a decent experience in all it's aspects. My poont is, let people enjoy their game how they want, and encourage them to try improve and learn as well, in hopes of them seeing the true masterpiece

[@mralabbad7]

In my first playthrough, i used a summon every fight and the strongest weapons in the game and every cheese under the sun. . . and I BARELY finished the game in 100+ HOURS! Every fight was hours of dying because i didn't know anything about levels or rolling or dancing or anything. I finished the game underleveled and skipped every unnecessary boss to save time which made it harder for me to find runes and get stronger😂 After a couple more playthroughs, i tried to solo every boss and it didn't even take as much time now that i have a lot of experience to fall back on and I certainly enjoyed my solo playthrough more because of it. My point is, a noob may have problems an experienced player won't even know/remember exist, so they don't have the same needs or wants😂

[@simonwood635]

Elden ring was my first time playing a souls like, I used summons throughout the game and didn’t use a guide and it still took me like 175hrs, it also got me used to the mechanics of the game, like training wheels, now on my second play through without and still recommend summons to people new to the game bc of its crazy learning curve

[@devasprime6700]

I enjoy them when they're thematically congruent with a build versus whatever the best summon is. Example; I love my Jar themed barbarian, aka the Jarbarian, so I love using Jar Warriors ashes because they fit even though they objectively suck

[@ksw8514]

My problem with spirit summons, just as NPC summons in older games, is that they mostly just turn the boss fights into an unpredictable and chaotic mess. Unless we get more control over them, I don't think I'll ever understand their appeal as a gameplay mechanic.

[@andrewkelly1337]

Well the chaos can harm or help you but it does make every fight go differently

[@subject8776]

I used spirit ashes on my first playthrough when I hit a wall against Malenia, I then got lazy and used it against Mohg and Elden Beast too. The victories against them didn't feel that satisfying so I played through the game a second time without any spirit ashes or npc summons, me against the world. That felt right to me.

[@VaneWalker]

I don't think every Elden Ring boss fight is an example of exemplary from soft standards. As someone who's solo'd all of them, I like having the option to trivialize some of the more annoying or gank-ass fights you can stumble into in this game. In some cases it makes the fights more enjoyable. One example is the boss fight before the Lord of Blood's Exaltation talisman. Brother F' those dogs and F' that reduvia nerd. I'm going to summon my 3 boys, the lone wolves, and they're gonna bite some ankles.

[@Peroshy]

TBF a lot of these fights are only so mediocre due to Spirit Ashes existing. There is no way we would have the Godskin Duo in its current implementation if Spirit Ashes were not a mechanic.

[@serjofcinder8925]

There's also a third option which I recommend. Play solo and don't use summons until you get really frustrated. The game is meant to be challenging but also fun yet even annoying at times. If the challenge becomes so annoying that it puts you off continuing, that means you've reached a point where frustration overcomes the fun you experience and here is where I'd use a spirit ash. Also for double bosses, fuck double bosses

[@Sir_Vaza_JTV]

Very true, especially the last part lol

[@AirRice]

This is my line of thought. I'll meet the game halfway as much as possible, but bosses like fortissax not even allowing you to lock onto the feet? twin gargoyles with the same kind of insane flurry attacks? fucking crucible knight duo? godskin duo?? I'll fight bullshit with bullshit of my own, thank you very much.

[@Kolket1389]

The problem is, in my opinion, that some bosses are balanced with ashes in mind and some aren’t.

[@hulkmt]

that seems like the case tbh

[@juanhurtado7244]

No. People literally beat this game solo without lvl up and on ng+7 or hitless. That's just an excuse to not learn the fight.

[@La0bouchere]

@@juanhurtado7244 That's boring af though, and memorizing dodge timings isn't learning anything

[@okrelayer]

Something else I wanna add about spirit ashes is that why are there some bosses you CANNOT use spirit ashes for? Unless I miscounted but there are 16 unique bosses in elden ring you can’t use your spirit ashes with. You’d think that maybe from software wanted to leave some really challenging bosses where you can ONLY solo them. However most of the bosses (evergauls) you can’t summon for are way easier than any of the main story bosses solo. My theory is that fromsoftware balanced the game around solo areas, as well as areas if you choose you can use a spirit ash. Which makes me truly feel that ashes were designed to be a core part of the game. I beat orphan of kos on my 2nd try, and I find many of the main story bosses in Elden Ring way harder than anything in the previous games. It sucks because I think that the game cranked up the difficulty too much solo, but spirit ashes makes it too easy lol. So I’ve been trying different spirit ashes that are maybe less effective than the meta ones. With all this said, it’s clear that fromsoft made Elden Ring from the ground up with spirit ashes in mind. Weather bosses were made with ashes from the ground up is up to debate. Regardless, me and my ash boys will be ready for the dlc lol

[@GILGAMESH069]

I don't care if you use spirit ash summons because I myself use them in some niche situations, I just find it funny that people try to pretend that it's not a totally different experience and even worse calling you a toxic elitist, not for shaming them for using summons but solely because you pointed it how different the game is with them which is ironic because they treat anyone who dosen't use them as a tryhard elitist which is just as toxic Actually taking your time to learn the meticulously crafted boss encounters is now seeing as way for "losers" to prove themselves because of some inferiority complex and not at all because they simply find it more fun This more than anything they do in game is the negative effect of spirit ashes on the community

[@RLQFK]

It's just a way for spirit ash users to protect their fragile ego, if you point out the literal objective reality that summons and ashes make the game 100x easier they'll call you a toxic gatekeeper.

[@SleeplessSpecter]

Game goes from the hardest From Souls game except for Sekiro, to the easiest Souls game by a mile. And people will gaslight you into believing they had a similar experience

[@Galamoth06]

​@@RLQFKliterally, objectively 100 times easier? I'm surprised that your math on that came out to such a rounded number, because my figures have it at a 287.3689% reduction in difficulty. Out of curiosity, which formula are you using to define this objective conclusion?

[@thewretch4081]

True, the difference of using spirit Ashes and not using them is night and day

[@Sirfortune881]

You people realize that the game is so terribly balanced that you practically need the ashes to progress is some situations and yes it is elitist as you see he in fact uses them in the video lmfao and I know you used one at meant once don't be fucken assholes cuz your litteraly makeong people shun these games your your retards so.i wouldent expect morons to understand and no its not balanced around one player idk where people get that

[@JahIthBer]

You make a lot of great points. My issue with summons and spirit Ashe it just makes the game too easy but for the 2v1 fights it even outs the odds especially the gargoyle boys. I have the same stance as you for the first playthrough you should def not use co op summons but I’m more open to spirit ash being used in a 2v1 situation. It just makes it too easy you will steam roll through all 1v1 boss fights the whole reason the series is famous is for the difficulty. The high you get after beating a tough boss is the best.the game is not designed around a co op system like you said it’s a single player game with co op added on.

[@absoutezeo2126]

My suggestion to friends for a first playthrough is that spirit ashes are 100% on the table and even encouraged, but only use them when you're really, really struggling. If you use them all the time, you never get that one-on-one experience you need to understand the timing and hitboxes of bosses. As for co-op, I always recommend people do their first playthroughs alone and then co-op and invade as much as they want afterwards. It's very easy to have your PVE experience tainted by some cheeseball nonsense otherwise, usually a cooperator using some level 700 build or just straight-up cheating with exploits. Having one good playthrough that lets you experience the intended story and immersion is always worth it. P.S. While I do recommend using spirit ashes as a way to help when someone hits a wall, I actually recommend simply leaving and coming back later first. Elden Ring is an open world game, and there's no reason to get yourself stuck (unless it's Malenia lol).

[@Proxy1199]

Or use npc summons for Radahn’s fight - think that fight is actually tailored *for* multiple summons

[@BusinessSkrub]

Some people aren't interested in the intended experience. Speedrunners, for example, don't generally engage with a game in the normal, intended way that everyone expects. They still enjoy themselves. People can use summons and still have a great experience and have a experience that lets them feel fulfilled, especially if they couldn't progress the game otherwise for whatever reason.

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

No. You are supposed to hit walls. You are supposed to struggle. You are supposed to lose. If you just summoned every time you hit any kind of adversity you are missing a fundamental part of the Souls experience. Unless you are stuck on a boss for 4+ hours and have gone somewhere else and came back, tried different weapons etc. THEN use summons.

[@BusinessSkrub]

@@shinyhydreigon7257 imagine, for just a second, that different people have different reasons for playing games? Some people aren't trying to push themselves to their absolute mental limit every time they open their pc/console/whatever. Some people live hard lives or work long hours and just want to fuckin chill and explore and play a game for fun. I can't fathom how it's so hard for you people to see that YOUR experience isn't what everyone wants lmfao

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

@@BusinessSkrub As I said, it is an integral part of the Souls experience. One of the main reasons, if not THE reason that Dark Souls took off is because of the difficulty. Without it, it wouldn't be the same game, and wouldn't have garnered the same type of success that it had. Sure it is not everyone, but it is undeniablely a core part of the series, and serves to enhance the story and world. If someone is playing Elden Ring because of the hype of being a GOTY and all the critical acclaim around it, they will often be disappointed if they just end up using summons and breeze through. If players are happy using summons then great, I just know that the majority of players would have a better experience embracing the struggle. Ya know, the main fucking message of the Souls series.

[@PiiskaJesusFreak]

Good video! I'd like to add that there are some (not many) bosses that seem to be balanced around summons, namely Radahn and Godskin duo. Plentiful npc summons are provided with Radahn so that you can face him at lower level than otherwise, and Godskin duo doesn't seem to work very well together, making playing with spirit ashes feel a lot more natural at least to me.

[@pingpong5877]

Remember folks, if the devs put a mechanic in their game, it's a feature that CAN be used. But if you installed an easy mode mod, then you're NOT playing how the devs intended.

[@kayhaich]

Yeah by the way this guy speaks, you'd think that this game wasn't developed by Fromsoft, who think about every single element of their games.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

@@kayhaich he’s saying fromsoft gave you an effective easy mode that’s probably less fun than the normal mode for most people. You do realise that an easy mode isn’t the core experience any developer expects you to have. It’s effectively an accessibility option.

[@kayhaich]

@@porkwhisperer3050 dear oh dear...I know what he's saying, but I don't personally agree with what he's saying. You don't compute fun in terms of difficulty. Fun is fun. Some people think a challenge is fun, some people think saving time from the grind in a game is fun. Generally most people don't compute work to fun on their time off work though. The developer wants you to buy and enjoy the game, and I honestly think they just do not care whether the player does it on easy mode. It IS an accessibility option, sure, but you guys are getting it twisted.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

@@kayhaich An accessibility option is designed to be used obviously. We (me and Ratatoskr) are both arguing that most people will enjoy the game more without spirits or summons if they gave it an honest shot. Your conclusion that most people don’t find “work” fun after working is pretty clearly wrong. You know most people enjoy a sport of some kind, or exercise, or any skill based hobby. The main reason suggesting people don’t use spirits (at least at first)is a good idea is people are bad at putting effort into things for a reward later down the line. Especially when they don’t know that reward is there. Sure if you’re going to quit the game or you’re not getting any dopamine from killing some challenging bosses without spirits then go ahead and use them. The thing is a lot of people will miss a huge part of the game (the action mechanics) what they may enjoy if they spent the time to interact with it. If they use spirits they may just not even get the chance. Or at the very least they won’t experience the action mechanics at their best.

[@kayhaich]

@@porkwhisperer3050 why don't you go play the game how you like without cramming your views down everyone's neck? Oh and stop pretending your annoying opinions are somehow fact.

[@Phirestar]

I feel there’s an inherent problem with people assuming that every single person is going to enjoy the game in the same manner. Saying that, “You will have the most fun by not using summons.”, is treating human beings like they’re identical creatures that all share the same thoughts, the same feelings, and hold the same values toward certain ideas. To me, it would be no different than if I were to say to you, “You shouldn’t look up any lore videos. You will have the most fun playing Elden Ring if you collect all the items, complete all the NPCs quest lines, and piece the story together yourself.” Maybe that is the case for some people, but it doesn’t mean that everybody is going to like doing that. The mere fact that there are those who don’t like Elden Ring at all is proof itself that there’s no one-size-fits-all playstyle that’ll make the game appealing to everyone. If someone doesn’t end up enjoying the game as much as others, I think that’s perfectly okay. I myself have run into that scenario before, where I played a game that lots of people said was amazing and one of their favorite games, and I ended up just seeing it as “okay”.

[@grayjedioutcast3550]

Yes. Use them if you need help. That's what they are there for.

[@fernandofaria2872]

I agree with you that, potentially, a player will have a more fun and rewarding experience when not using spirit ashes. But i disagree that Elden Ring is not built around multiplayer and ashes. They balance their weapons around pvp, for example. I just think From Software does a poor job at balancing that. Every FromSoft IP had an aspect that contributed to their identity, separating them a bit from Dark Souls. In Bloodborne, it’s the rally mechanic. In Sekiro, it’s deflecting, or ressurection. In Elden Ring, its ashes. Are you meant to use them? Well, obviously. As you said, Miyazaki didn’t create this whole ass mechanic for you to simply ignore it. That being said, there are huge problems with it, and it’s part of the reason why i don’t like Elden Ring as much as their other games. Personally, i don’t use them because they break the boss AI. That betrays Miyazaki’s famous principle of providing more or less the same experience for all players, by not adding difficulty options (something i completely agree). Now, whether you consider ashes a difficulty slider or not, they DO make the game a completely differrent experience, _even more so_ than their previous titles (heck, i’ve never seen a summon solo a boss). The worst consequence, IMO, is that they have now contributed even more to this braindead “git gud” discourse, dividing the already toxic fanbase even more. I soloed every FromSoft boss and personally have absolutely no problem if you choose to use an *intended* mechanic, even though i believe it was poorly implemented. And thats the problem with it, isnt it? If you agree that you should ignore them, then its objectively a bad mechanic in the first place. When i got my hands on the game for the first time, I wanted to engage with that mechanic myself, if not for their ineptitude, in not knowing how to design the bosses around them. There was SO MUCH they could’ve done with it, even making bosses _harder_ if you use a summon, for example. What i mean is different interactions, like finding out that Margit gets stronger and faster when poisoned by the jellyfish, or Godfrey having a different moveset if you summon the bird (that lion could finally actually do something), or a banished knight turning on you if you summon one for the fight with Niall. It would be SO much fun to discover those 🤔… they could even make more overworld puzzles using summons, like the jellyfish one in the Mountaintops. I would be willing to wait an additional year in development to have that; it would certainly contribute to make Elden Ring more distict than Dark Souls. Here’s hoping that if we get to fight Miquella in the DLC he could have a mechaninc like this, making your summon turn on you 🙂

[@Eeiiaane]

I'll summon whoever I want, whatever I want, whenever I want, I'm living and playing peacefully on my own this is coming from someone that has been playing the soulsgame for a long time from the start..

[@SoulsNThings]

I bet you're one of the ones that read the title, watched 15 seconds and then commented

[@kayhaich]

@@SoulsNThings and here you are gatekeeping and telling others how they experience anything. Oh the irony.

[@SoulsNThings]

@@kayhaich Neither Rat or I are gatekeeping anything. Guess you didn't watch the video either.

[@kayhaich]

@@SoulsNThings "Rat and I" LOL. "you probably didn't watch the video" is also such a dumb take. I honestly did NOT need to watch the video, because its obvious it's a clone of a hundred other videos released 2 years ago, but I did. Yes I watched the video and I didn't agree with its prescriptions, or its passive-aggressive side swipes at how fans digest the game, then backtracking and then insulting peoples intelligence in saying that's not what was being said. This is why it evokes a powerful emotional response from many viewers, because it's insulting to 99% of people who actually watch the video and who are active gamers making their own choices with how they choose to play well-known games. It's such an obvious play for views and relevance, when the audience is already well-established.

[@SoulsNThings]

Leave it to an "active gamer" to get so upset when someone makes a video stating their opinion on something lmao. Jesus bro get a life.

[@ggwp638BC]

I don't think Spirit Ashes are a "tacked on" function, nor even an extension of NPC summons. While yes, in the base game you can't use NPC summons with spirit ashes, that restriction was entirely dropped in SoTE. Secondly, it's not entirely correct to say Elden Ring bosses were not designed for 2v1s. Yes, their AI malfunctions a lot, this is more of a case of From Software sometimes missing the mark they were aiming for, than a design choice. In fact, when you carefully inspect the deliberate design choices for these bosses, particularly the bosses beyond Limgrave, you see they have several countermeasures against groups - more AoE attacks and animation reading for healing, projectiles, spells and incantations. As per usual From Software fashion, they expanded this even more in SoTE, allowing bosses to change targets even in the middle of the animation, and target the player even if they are not attacking, and as a result allowed for NPC summons and Spirit Ashes to coexist. Thirdly, Spirit Ashes are awarded so early you are likely to get them before you can even level up, and they are given to you with Torrent, which is at the core of the game's exploration. Furthermore, they are an upgradable equipment, and Ghost Gloveworts are often rewards for exploration, in the same vein as Smithing Stones used for weapon upgrades. If we do not consider anything we know about summons from older games, all game literacy tells us that the devs see Spirit Ashes as a core gameplay mechanic no different that weapons, consumables, flasks, and so on. You may not like what this means for boss fights, but there is no argument to say they weren't intended as a core mechanic that also can't be used to disqualify weapons, spells or incantations as intended gameplay mechanics. Ultimately, the argument here only stands on the notion that Elden Ring is meant to be played as Dark Souls, even though it is clearly not. - But some Spirit Ashes are OP I mean, some weapons and builds are OP. Mages can one shot bosses with very little setup before they even get in range for an attack. Bleed melts through everything. You can get an incantation for Scarlet Rot very early on that turns solos several bosses by itself. Elden Ring is a game about being THE Elden Lord, several bosses even congratulate your strength. It is fully a power fantasy and you're meant to be OP and broken. And summoning minions to your aid is also a part of that. Of course there are some cases that do affect the gameplay a bit too much. OG Mimic was way too overtuned, even today it's still is above the curve, but playing with the other spirits ashes is really fun and brings a lot of variety and new tactics to the battle. - But Spirit Ashes make the game easier So does leveling, so does upgrading your weapons, so does using throwables and consumables, so does everything else in the game. It's kind of the point. Spirit Ashes are an intended core part of the game, and it's up to you if you don't want to use them, and that's what is good about From Software. Of course, not using them means you're raising the challenge for yourself, much like not using Torrent significantly increases the difficulty of certain fights and makes exploring harder, but it still is your choice.

[@chickensofdeath490]

“We don’t want people to look things up” makes the most obscure, unhelpful and terrible quests in any video game.

[@Knucklebreaking]

It's for replay value but fair fucking point lol. The Ranni's Dark Moon puzzle was awfully designed imo.

[@Jannfndnanakid]

NOOOOOOOOOO I NEED TO DO THE HECKIN QUESTERINOS

[@eduardofreitas8336]

THIS. This is my pain. I want to do everything blind and I end up missing all the side quests

[@BirdMoose]

I will say there is a huge difference between weak and strong summons as well. I think your average player would have a pretty good experience regardless of summons if they were summoning jellyfish, or clay men, or giant rats who would have a small impact on most boss fights. Even medium strength summons like Lattenna, imps, most of the soldiers, etc would certainly effect a playthrough, but not hugely. But most players I talk to who use summons pretty much use mimic tear, often after having been guided to it, or maybe another top ash like Lhuthel or Tiche. These strongest summons often play the game for you, and of my friends who have played Elden Ring, the ones who enjoyed the game the least were those who played with these strong summons. While I'm a no summoning purist for myself, the only thing I'd really recommend not using is top summons like Mimic Tear. When I played DS1 for the first time, I didn't have xbox live so I couldn't play online, and was forced to grind through the game alone. Frankly, I would have probably summoned given the opportunity and I doubt I would have fallen in love with the series in the way I did. When I try and steer players away from summons, its not pretention or gatekeeping; I'm trying to introduce them to why I love the games.

[@jamesshaver2376]

I used them my first play through. It was the best time I ever had playing a game. On subsequent play throughs I don’t use them anymore. I say play how it feels right to you. There is no right or wrong way to enjoy a game

[@unit38421]

The way I see it, by giving players options, you give them the freedom to play the game in the way that's the most fun and the most fulfilling to them. I didn't use spirit ashes for my first playthrough for the same reason that I never install mods on the first playthrough of any game - I want to full experience before I start making changes to it. I stongly encourage everyone to beat every boss without summons at least once, but if summons is what it takes for someone to enjoy the game, why wouldn't they? Certain bosses aren't that rewarding to fight, especially the second time around. I've beat Malenia solo with a light load dex build and it was fun to succeed, but I'll happily admit that I'll probably never do it again without a summon. I know I can manage the fights without, and that's enough for me.

[@stevemichael652]

Spirit summons act the same as coop phantoms in bosses in that they split aggro and take that dance away from you and the boss.

[@-TriP-]

I hope that in future games they'll give bosses additional fighting styles to specifically use if you bring summons, like switching up the AI to use more/new AOEs or something.

[@DionPanday]

Youd think after 7 games in the series they’d have enough time to figure that out but they don’t

[@aureateseigneur5317]

​@@DionPandayWhy do you assume they are even trying to?

[@DionPanday]

@@aureateseigneur5317 because that’s what you do as a developer, you improve on things that were bad or mediocre?

[@aureateseigneur5317]

@@DionPanday You have to think they were bad or mediocre to think they need fixing. You thinking they are bad or mediocre doesn't mean they are, or that the developers agree with you even remotely. Gamers have a real self centering problem where they think the way they feel is how everyone else feels or should feel. That's not how any of this has ever worked. FS and most of the fanbase don't find these things remotely "bad or mediocre" so they don't get changed. Your personal preferences for how systems should be isn't some kind of iron clad law my dude. Get over yourself.

[@DionPanday]

@@aureateseigneur5317 bro what are you talking about, stop glazing your favorite multi million dollar company. They don’t even know you exist and you’re sucking them off

[@janmoryn8164]

Love how the day progresses in the scene with Church of Elleh as you come closer to the end of the video, nice touch!

[@ianthorpe1925]

The gate keeping nerds in this fandom crack me up. Play the game however you want. It's not that serious.

[@UnknownJudgment]

I think there is a fundamental difference between the "cost" of using summons for areas vs. summons for bosses. The solo experience of an area is a limited commodity, so to speak. The feeling of encountering new enemies, trying to anticipate and deal with unexpected ambushes, and managing one's resources to reach the next shortcut or rest spot can only be fully experienced on a first, blind playthrough. Summoning help that trivializes these aspects ensures that one never has a chance to have that full experience for the area in question (and it's part of why I prefer not to be summoned to clear areas). For bosses, on the other hand, there is always an opportunity to revisit them on another playthrough and fight them solo for the "intended" experience when one is good and ready to. It is not limited in any capacity since the experience is contingent only on the boss and the player's willingness to engage with it rather than on the player's lack of knowledge. It's exactly why challenge runs are so appealing - they call for players to learn bosses on a deeper level and allow one to experience that "dance" all over again, even having fought the boss normally before. This is why spirit ashes are such a well-realized mechanic; they let struggling players seek help against key foes without robbing them of what could be an enjoyable experience of traversing an area blind.

[@Grayald]

There IS no argument. They're there to be used. Use if you want. Don't use if you don't want. Those who use them don't care about people who don't. It's the people who are against them who are screaming and acting like fools.

[@HeyTarnished]

Amazing video! I always found it puzzling whenever I hear that "ER's bosses are designed with spirit ashes in mind" because this is an absolutely Schizo take, I mean summons have always existed in previous Souls entries, you could invite other players to help you in your world, but now they made it easier, Ludwig from BB had 3 summons very close to his fog gate, does that mean he was made with those in mind or that "the game expects you to use them?" No, absolutely not, it's optional, like any build or any magic/melee weapons or any OP consumable (like Beast Blood Pellets) the game throws at you, most of what I see are those who call themselves "Souls vets" their egos were hurt so they convinced themselves that the game expects you or demands you to use them to play it "the intended way" whatever that means...

[@seracris8357]

In the original Dark Souls summoned phantoms couldn't heal using the estus flask(healing flask). They could only be healed if the host used his own flask to heal. I think this was a good mechanic to prevent summuns to play in a carefree way because they actually had to avoid getting hit by enemies. You also had less maximum hp than usual as a summon. All that is missing in Elden Ring if you ask me. Coop would be suffering by introducing these mechanics but that would be a sacrifice worth for a better single player experience, which this game is at heart.

[@Galamoth06]

There were also healing miracles, but I get what you mean.

[@Grimbonez]

The one thing that always made me feel like the game was in some way balanced around ashes is the dmg/hp values. In ER dmg values seem off the charts, both you and bosses deal extremely high damage, and have relatively small hp pools. Er bosses can sometimes feel like glass canon battles. Ashes on the other hand have STUPID high hp, to the point where some max level ashes can survive multiple waterfowls where a player struggles to tank even 1. This can been seen as early as margit vs jellyfish. Only way these values make sense to me is if the values were made with ashes in mind as an “easy mode”. If ur struggling against a boss, u can hire a bullet sponge to tank some of the hits for you.

[@BusinessSkrub]

If they're there, they're meant to be used if desired. Whether you do is up to you as an individual. There is no "should" or "shouldn't". Just, that you CAN. I have ADHD, autism, and ZERO patience. If a boss is taking me more than a handful of tries, I'm likely using a summon. Not because I'm incapable of eventually getting it, but because it's no longer fun to keep trying at that point and I'd like to continue playing my video games to relax, not to compare and contrast my experience to everyone else's, thank you very much.

[@depalodor]

This video is not about comparing yourself to others. It's about maximizing the value of the experience Elden Ring gives you. It tries to encourage you to do things by yourself and overcoming great feats with your own mental prowess and dedication, which eventually leads to a sense of accomplishment and experience that can't be recreated otherwise. This mentality adapted from the game even translates into IRL for some people to get new motivation and generate extra willpower. I think anyone can benefit from trying this approach, regardless of your situation. Just because it is desirable and readily available to use the red button to nuke the boss and eliminate any challenge or extra value you would've gotten otherwise, doesn't mean that you should. Just because I have a desire to eat pre-portioned junk food every day because it tastes better, is easier to come by and I am bad at cooking, doesn't mean I should. Maybe I should try cooking for myself, because in the long run I will get better at something I've failed at before and get extra value out of the food.

[@BusinessSkrub]

@@depalodor your idea of 'maximizing experience' and mine are different. That's the primary point. I have 11k+ hours in ds1, and I've still never nor will I ever do a challenge run with sl1, or no hit, etc. It's not worth it for me, and I don't care to do what other people do just because they enjoy it. I play games for fun and to chill out. You play to make yourself miserable until you win, we are not the same 🤷🏼 Also, if you genuinely think summons just insta kill bosses and make the game moot, you've quite obviously never used a summon and have absolutely no experience with them, and so your opinion on them is worthless.

[@cjgeminitarot6836]

@@BusinessSkrub right, “red button to nuke the boss” bro no summon does that.

[@doriangray1935]

7:01 I like how hosts just give up as soon as their phantoms die🤣

[@starchaser1135]

It’s already in the game, so people are free to use them. BUT just because the dev put something in the game, doesn’t mean it is above all criticisms, from a design standpoint. Much like how we criticise features in other games, I think it’s okay, healthy even, that we discuss how game design can be improved, even by a goated developer like FromSoft.

[@MasterDuelCentral]

Fromsoft put this feature in to compensate for their own poor boss design in elden ring.

[@poiumty]

@@MasterDuelCentral I don't think so. I think the boss design is only poor if you consider that the default way to play is without summons. And even then, it's far and beyond most bosses in most video games. If you take into account that the game was most likely designed with spirit ashes/summons in mind... no.

[@MasterDuelCentral]

@@poiumty Oh yeah! I actually agree with you, actually that's kinda the point I'm making just said differently.

[@Aftokraftor]

@@MasterDuelCentral this is the last place I ever expected to see you also I agree some bosses are so damn overtuned feels like queuing into snake eyes for the 57th time

[@MasterDuelCentral]

@@Aftokraftor I stream ER from time to time so shouldn't be too surprising. Will be streaming the elden ring dlc when it drops for sure

[@dsVektor]

My personal issue with summons is that it fundamentally changes how the bosses play. The very thing I find enjoyable, which is engaging the boss head on, is gone. You can, for the most part, simply ignore learning the actual fight itself. Another gripe is players not understanding this fact and wonderding why we think ER bosses are the hardest. No, Malenia isn't easy.

[@Fallen-Asura]

This is a hard one for me. In the past two weeks I have beaten the game 3 times to prep a few characters for the dlc (game isn't that long if you know where to go). I don't personally like to use ash summons but I will occasionally use an NPC summon. For example, I usually npc summon on Radahn not because he is a hard fight but because I love the spectacle of the army of characters I like fighting him. Or Melina with Morgott because she is my favorite npc. I have also done a RL1 no summon run (which was miserable). I always find myself having a blast up until around mountaintop of the giants, and its because I think right around there you can tell that the game starts to become really balanced around the idea of you having high level summons as companions. Specifically with bosses like Godskin duo, Mohg, and Malenia who are really oppressive and have some cheap gimmicks. They also just have a metric ton of health and if you aren't over leveled or using a specific build it takes forever to chip them down without summons. I feel like right around that point in the game I lose the "souls dance" style of combat where you have this great interaction of dodging and weaving, learning mechanics, learning when to trade hits, etc., and instead it becomes a "I sure hope she doesn't waterfowl at point blank" or "Man it sure would be nice if Mohg stopped surrounding his entire body with bloodfire so my melee build could hit him." Bosses at end game have very strong and fast attacks that have almost no punishable window afterwards. You never really get "your turn." This in my opinion was made this way because they just assumed everyone would have a spirit summon to back them up, do damage, take hits, and distract the boss. The problem for me though is then that the solo player loses out on exceptional fight design because bosses aren't designed to be fought solo. So every time I think to myself "Man I really don't think Malenia is a well designed boss" I have to stop myself and remember it wasn't designed to be fought solo like I want to. It can be done and it can even be mastered, but as a whole it doesn't feel nearly as "souls-like" as a lot of the other bosses from the game or series. And that's the reason I would never put someone down for using ashes, they were designed to be a something the game was balanced around. The old-head stubborn souls players like myself are the ones who just don't want to change.

[@sibby_547]

Couldn't have said it better myself. I didn't use spirit ashes for most of my first playthrough, and I found most of the bosses to be balanced pretty well. Then, suddenly, I got to endgame and I felt like all of the bosses got turned up to 11. I've beaten every Fromsoft game since Demon Souls, but I don't claim to be the best player. I don't do lvl 1 runs or anything like that. In Elden Ring's endgame, I felt like I was in this place where I wasn't good enough to beat the bosses solo (without beating my head against the wall with 50+ attempts of misery), but when I used Spirit ashes it made the fights so easy that I felt unfulfilled when I won. Everything was always too hard or too easy, no sweet spot. Really soured the end of the game for me to be honest.

[@Smaxy_]

Malenia is the perfect example of a fight that was not intended for summons though? She get staggered by every hit so as soon as you use an ash or a summon she becomes a living pinata. There is not a single boss made with summons in mind, except maybe duo bosses. Still I beat all of them in my first playthrough without cheese or anything. Because this is what the game is. Gitting gud.

[@sinsofthelastdawn8942]

(This doesn't mention any dlc spirit ashes) It's important to preface that you dont _have_ to use the most powerful spirit ashes if you don't want to have them essentially take credit for the fight. There's a reason there are 3 different tiers of spirit ashes, the ones at tier 3 obviously being the best. Tier 1 is your helpful, but not entirely reliable category of summons, though I suppose there are a few that make an exception. This includes the Putrid Corpse ashes, which fulfill only the intent of drawing attention and having a lot of health per individual summon. Then you have the Fanged Imp ashes, which do good blood loss buildup, deal magic damage with their pots, and are decently agile, but they suffer from being easy to kill by not having an ton of health and are also easy to stagger. In other words, Tier 1 is meant to fill in a niche, something that adds some level of a very specific kind of support. Tier 2 is a mixed bag, some being little better than Tier 1, while others teeter towards something alike the ability of Tier 3. The Avionette Soldier ashes are an example of one that is more like Tier 1, as they are essentially an alternate version of the Fanged Imps. They move around a lot more, deal fire damage instead of magic, and have better range. However, their movement greatly depends on their attacks, rather than their evasiveness, and have the downside of malfunctioning upon being hit at times. Same goes for the Marionette Soldier ashes, though these are better because of their ranged specialty. Also in Tier 2, you have the Crystalian and Leyndell Soldier ashes, which excell at defensive capabties while making good effort at using counter attacks as their sole method of offense. They are good, until their defense is broken, at which point they are minced meat. Good for trading aggro, but cannot consistently rely on their own power to save themselves, or you. You still play a magor role in how the fight goes, as it is almost entirely up to your strategic thinking as to how you decide to fight alongside these ashes that dictates how effectively the both of you synergize. This tier is what I recommend to those who want a noticable amount of assistance, but not so much that they don't feel as though they are the side character. Tier 3 is the utmost assistance, excelling at most roles they are given. For example, one of my favorites, Ancient Dragom Knight Kristoff, is amazing at pretty much everything but building up status effects or dodging, since he just isn't capable of any status effect buildup, and while he can evade, it's not nearly as effective as ashes like the Fanged Imps in Tier 1, or Black Knife Tiche in Tier 3. However, he as an absolute truckload of health, blocks attacks often, deals lightning damage, knocks enemies onto the ground, and generally comes in clutch for you when you need it. In my opinion, aside from a decked-out Mimic Tear, he is the best one in Tier 3. He's got all the range, the damage, the health and the defense you'll need for most of the game, save for a few bosses that simply focus on any one of these aspects more than he can, like Placidusax. Imo, Banished Knight Engvall is a good substitute for Kristoff if you don't have him yet, and Engvall is the best for accesibilty at Tier 3, as he lies in one of the first catacombs of the game and is a pretty reliable option until you have progressed far enough to obtain Kristoff. Even then, Engvall remains a good balance of evasiveness, health, and damage for most of the game. To finish off the point, we have ashes like Oleg and Tiche, which specialize in damage output. While Oleg does exceptional raw damage, and has lengthy attack strings, he never dodges out of the way and can easily get bullied in a corner if he doesn't out-damage his opponent. Tiche is somewhat similar, except her agility is the best out of any summon in the game, and she does most of her damage from her ranged Destined Death attack. Her health is good, but not great. Oleg has a little less than Engvall, but the difference between the two is still noticable. Finally, we have arguably the two best spirit ashes in the game for their sheer capabilities: Mimic Tear and Dung Eater. We all know what makes Mimic Tear good, and Dung Eater fills in the role of being _like_ Mimic Tear, but doesn't rely on your build and setup being good to play his part almost equally as well, at least before you start getting into high enough levels that your character suits most, of not all build setups. Thanks for reading this far, let me know your thoughts on the spirit ash mechanics and whether or not my input was valuable.

[@Dr_Donald_Duck]

Elden Ring has bad single player balance. OP weapons. Bosses with low stagger thresholds who are easily kited. Ashes of War that give 200-800 poise with 300+ motion values. Items that trivialise encounters. And buff mechanics where you can reach ng+7 damage during the mid game of ng. Elden Ring's main challenge lies in acquiring the knowledge of how its system work.

[@ilias-4252]

Very well said. That's also the reason looking up guides is a form of cheating, even if a good number of the playerbase doesn't view it that way.

[@kayhaich]

Elden ring is a game with features designed by fromsoft. Do you think a game with such an advanced understanding of how little things can be interpreted into bigger ones wouldn't have intentionally designed a game like this for a broader audience after putting so much effort into it? Like just maybe they want it accessible to casuals without putting in an easy mode? Just stop. Stop gatekeeping. It's painful.

[@Smaxy_]

Its already very hard to avoid cheesing the game unintentionally so adding summons on top doesn't help. In my first playthrough despite avoiding all obvious cheese tactics (summons, magic, block etc) I used a cheese build by accident (ps great weapon jump attack spam) and I'll never get my first experience back sadly...

[@kayhaich]

@@Smaxy_ Sad story. Not really the experience of most players across the spectrum, for whom the game was designed for as a base average. Maybe next time use a steering wheel controller blindfolded or aim to do a level 1 no-hit run blind, maybe just congratulate yourself on what an exceptionally skilled gamer you are.

[@Smaxy_]

@@kayhaich its not about being a skilled gamer or whatever its about having a great experience. You only have one first playthrough. One.

[@TinfoiledTarnished]

Elden Ring was my first fromsoft game and I loved it so much that I've gone back and played almost all the other souls games as well. I'm not a competitive person, so I get no feeling of accomplishment or gratification from beating bosses or participating in invasions. I like games for story, exploration, and beautiful scenery/world building. So I don't think I'll ever do a run without co-op or ashes. I only co-op with my brother and only in very specific areas so my sessions with him have only ever been positive. They're also some of my favorite memories. He's my favorite person and this game and co-op created some really happy bonding moments with him. Especially since he was familiar with these games and was excited to teach me the mechanics. It probably sounds stupid to the get gud brigade but I look forward to exploring the dlc with him (and Tiche).

[@theworstcatholic7247]

Here's the thing. It makes the game easier, arguably trivial in many circumstances, summoning can legitimately be nigh the equivalent of handing the controller to your older brother if you want it to be (Let Me Solo Her got famous over it.). Then there are other bosses like the twin crucible knights, gargoyles and godskins that feel like they are balanced around ashes (or just not balanced at all really). It absolutely makes the game significantly easier. People shouldn't rag on others for using summons (lest it be playful banter) but neither should summoners be disingenuous and act like there is no difference at all between the experiences and many will recommend trying it solo because of that.

[@MasterDuelCentral]

I dont like rata's take on this bc he basically ignores the fact that elden ring bosses are unfun and poorly designed much of the time.

[@depalodor]

@@MasterDuelCentral I think you can count the truly poorly designed bosses on two hands. You don't have to inflate that number to make your point. Much of the time the bosses are very doable and fair as a solo player I'd argue.

[@MasterDuelCentral]

@@depalodor being able to count poorly designed bosses on 2 hands is a comically large amount

[@MasterDuelCentral]

@@depalodor I am not inflating numbers by the way. I know people like to think they know better than fromsoft but it's pretty clear to me that there are 2 mains reasons spirits are in the game. 1. When the playerbase fades over the years, people can still get some help on tough bosses. 2. They were a way to address the poor balancing and often poor design of bosses within Elden Ring. (and I also think these balancing issues stem from the open ended nature of elden ring making it harder to predict how overpowered/underpowered the player character might get by a certain part of the game) Doable, fair, fun, well designed are all subjective at the end of the day. I'm confident that the majority of players (unlike what rata is suggesting in this video) would MUCH RATHER have a summon or a spirit aid them when fighting say... Commander Niall, or the gargoyles.

[@fahimtajwaar2521]

@@MasterDuelCentral I find a lot of the times there’s a strong correlation between people calling a boss “poorly designed,” and people having a skill issue

[@Planetside223]

I barely beat the game even with the ashes. And without them, I would’ve 100% had to look up guides and spoiled myself. I thought that’s what Miyazaki intended with his quote and adding an optional way to help when the game gets really tough. And I thought that what the co-op aspect was to. Both are really only supposed to be used when you run up against a wall so tough that it’s either look up guides or quit.

[@BotBoy-un3pz]

There's so many bad bosses in this game I usually use them in most dungeons just to get through them quicker, and hold back from summoning for the good bosses.

[@PortlyPete]

imagine caring what other people think

[@shybandit521]

Spirit ashes don't make the game so easy that it loses the potent challenge that draws the average person to play the game, as most people will never learn where to find all the best upgrade materials or all the best ashes to begin with. If someone reaches Maliketh with +3 Wolves or a +4 Jellyfish, its not gonna trivialise it unlike the average experienced player's +9 Mimic Tear or Tiche. That will always be important to consider. With the speed of bosses in this game, it will often be just the edge needed for new players to turn the "Dark Souls char vs Bloodborne boss" dynamic into something just fair enough for them to beat on their 5th try and not be a wall so big they give up. Spirit ashes are honestly balanced around not using the wiki or tier lists or online maps, and I think thats a fine way for them to exist.

[@user-js4iw9rz2w]

For what it's worth, I recently played through Elden Ring for the first time (also my first souls game in general) and had Mimic Tear +9 by Maliketh. It didn't trivialize the fight but it only took me maybe 5 or 7 attempts to beat him with the mimic, whereas some of the harder bosses I encountered before acquiring and leveling up the mimic tear would take me like 20-30 attempts. In retrospect, I think I would have had a more rewarding experience not using summons but they weren't game-breaking either.

[@VolliVolliVolli]

Have no idea why people get offended on their own behalf when someone is criticizing a game. I personally think spirit ashes ruins the game, in fact if it didn't exist we wouldn't have this conversation right now. My biggest problem is the idea of not having a "shared experience" between the fanbase. Depending on how you approach the game, the difference between using spirits are very significant, to the degree that the game doesn't feel the same at times. In comparison to normal summoning, spirit ashes doesn't even multiply the HP for bosses, while also being much more consistent than actual real life people. For some weird reason many people take offense to this, eventhough I'm in no way telling people how to play. One thing I'll always advocate for in terms of how people play games (if anything), is to play games blind. I certainly think it's more rewarding to find the mimic tear on your own and discover how strong it is, rather than search for all possible glitches and cheeses to just give a bad faith review. I still enjoy the game due to playing on my own. But if we're talking about the game on a community front, it's certainly not the best it could be. The shared experienced aren't really there. In comparison to other games like monster hunter or even the older From Software games, where there would always be some sort of comradery in conquering the same challenges. If spirits didn't exist, we would go back to the debate of easy mode instead. Which in my opinion was a very vague take for the souls games in the first place. I really don't see the appeal for an easy mode on a game where the story is very cryptic. It could even be possible that the very players that are purposefully cheesing this game, are subconsciously getting some sort of gratification on the fact that the Souls games are known to be super hard games by the public. Anecdotally speaking, I experienced most people that advocated for easy mode never was interested in the franchise in the first place. In the way that these people called quits after not being able to defeat the 3rd boss, just to criticize the developers like no other.

[@Derpdeder_]

I always play solo on a first playthrough, however in Elden Ring you can't get organically invaded as a solo player so co-op is my only option. it's a shame but it's the only way I can get the Fromsoft experience I want. so therefore I like to explore in co-op and then do the bosses solo first time.

[@buddymaniac1992]

Why not just use the taunters tongue, there you have your solo invsions.

[@GreatWhiteElf]

​@@buddymaniac1992I'm assuming because it's not organic? I understand where OP is coming from, but it's hard to put into words. Like getting invaded during coop feels more natural

[@heyhoojoe]

Taunter's tongue exists for exactly that reason! So players like you, who like being invaded can get them at all times, but others don't have to.

[@rawrxdtonepforme9360]

​@buddymaniac1992 because the taunters tongue removes the invasion timer like the dried finger and turns all multiplayer slots into invaders when solo. which is a completely different experience from random solo invasion. It's not even remotely the same. In previous games, you'd get invaded once every 15 minutes weither you won or lost, and despite there being the same time limit, it was relatively unpredictable. With taunters tongue, you know you will be invaded at all times and by multiple people. It's more of a race to finish the area than a one and done.

[@rawrxdtonepforme9360]

@@heyhoojoe no it exists to be the dried finger of this game. It does not exist to replicate the experience of random solo invasions. DF and TT work literally the exact same. An invader once every 15 minutes is completely different from an unending horde of invaders with no cooldown.

[@tylersimmons6524]

I agree. I played my first playthrough (mostly) blind. I did look up how to get the statue in Leyendell to reveal the secret after hours of trial and error. I usually try to defeat bosses without ashes. But I have a full time job and kids and a house to take care of and a social life and other hobbies. I had over 120 hours and many months in my first playthrough, I couldn't be bothered to beat my head against a wall for 3 hours when I only get 3-5 hours a week to play. I'd be beating my head against a wall for a week or more, with no progress. Sometimes that meant going to other areas to level up. Sometimes (Maliketh) that meant ashes.

[@DennisEngelhard]

My current MO is that I only summon for Godskin Duo and Gideon, because if Fromsoft doesn't put any effort into a boss, neither will I.

[@amwazdraws6890]

Same. I use them against Godskin Duo and the Gargoyles.

[@naruroGCS]

godskins are really not that hard, just kill 1 first and then the fight is a 1 vs 1. every time one is getting revived, kill the onther one(repeat). But ngl i still find the move sets and hitboxes anoying af

[@daveyjoneslocker4703]

If fromsoft doesn’t put any effort into a boss Virgin: Then neither will I ☝🏻🤓 😏 Chad: Then I will put in maximum effort and prove my superiority 🗿

[@minerman60101]

I love Gideon tbh*, each of his spells requite you do dodge them differently and it was one of the more unique fights in the game in my RL1 all bosses playthrough *I have never fought the version of Gideon who has access to the triple rings spell

[@edward.constantine]

I have the true answer to this argument: Play how you want. The fact that this is even an argument that people are having is freaking asinine. People need to grow up, for real. It's a video game. Holy shit. No one cares how you play it. It's not real. It's fake. It's for fun. I feel stupid having to say all this, but unfortunately some of these man-children need to hear it.

[@1.25-dihydroxycholecalciferol]

As a DS veteran, using co-op and ashes is a way to make a hard game more enjoyable, which could give the player the opportunity to try challenging their skill on their own later on. It wasn't until I completed the game with my mates that I did a whole run on my own and I got it done 100%, it's really cool. Besides, ashes can be a co-op for people who play offline or have no one else available.

[@jvnells8]

Two things can be true at once: Spirit Ashes can be a natural progression of a mechanic that already existed in previous souls games, and they can also be used to appeal to a more modern, casual player base. Personally, I think it's more of the latter and less of the former. Also, two other things can be true at once: co-op can be something the devs want you to use on your first playthrough, and they can be badly implemented and destroy the experience. Personally, I think Fromsoft has lost their way in much of their modern game design, and this is evidence of that.

[@Mennenth]

here's my thoughts I've seen Malenia criticized as "a sekiro boss but you dont have sekiro tools". my response? "sure, but you have ELDEN RING tools". spirit ashes are one of those tools. same with perfumes (the bubble one that absorbs a hit is very nice while you are learning a bosses patterns). same with using throwing items to prevent a mobile boss' posture damage from recovering. That last one in particular is fascinating; I see so many people wanting to live out the Guts fantasy of "big sword go clang"... but then they miss out on how Guts has ranged weapons too. They stick to big sword only and then complain they cant stagger the more mobile boss' because they can only get 1 hit in and then there is a bunch of downtime. My response to them? Idk dude... be resourceful like Guts actually is? Jesus... But back to the topic of spirit ashes... I dont see them as an easy mode, though they have the potential to be as a reward for exploring to get all the upgrade materials. There is no shame in using them. They are a tool in your arsenal. To carte blanche reject ever using them because of some hardcore Gamer™ego shenanigans is silly.

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

I think some level on "toxicity" about Summons is good. I feel like too many players in Elden Ring think that they aren't capable of beating it solo, and resort to summons without truly giving themselves a chance to get better and learn a boss. My first playthrough in DS3 I knew about the stigma of summoning phantoms, so I didn't touch it, I didn't want to be a bitch. Is that a toxic mindset? Sure. But did it drastically raise my enjoyment of the game and series? Without a doubt. Its like you said in a video before ER came out. In our moments of weakness, whether it be getting stuck on a hard boss, or level, we are likely to choose the path of least resistance. But if we put some sort of barrier to that easy path (stigma), we are more likely to keep pushing forward and we get to dance with the boss. Most people who use Summons are only robbing themselves of an amazing experience.

[@Tyanus2]

Yeah that was my experience, I was surprised after I finished my unspoiled game by how many people said that Maliketh was hard meanwhile I just nuked him with my sorcery while my mimic tear was aggroing it. I wanted to do another play through with pyro and no summons but pyro spells are late game and I didn't have another 250h to play it again xD

[@magicfoogieA]

Could you technically apply this sort of logic to any mechanic of Elden Ring? Let's look at Torrent: - Torrent is legitimate and intended - Elden Ring is balanced as a single player experience, Torrent is a mechanic tacked on to a preexisting structure. - Using Torrent has costs: 1. Disrupts the flow of open world exploration, like riding through most of the map without engaging a single enemy. 2. Disrupts the flow of combat and fights (in the overworld) by allowing you to quickly escape and easily outmaneuver them. 3. Torrent at least does not affect legacy dungeons. But I don't think anyone will discourage using Torrent. Or at least, I can't see Ratatoskr making that claim even though it checks off most of his criteria. --- But back to the larger discussion at hand and I'm avoiding co-op since I agree that the mechanic exists outside the intended single player experience, I actually disagree that Spirit Ashes were mechanic that was not intended to be used. Miyazaki purposefully placed the introduction to Spirit Ashes early in the game. He also did so strategically where he might expect players to circle back to in Limgrave (Kale's church) to upgrade weapons or purchase items. More importantly, their use within the game can directly impact the story and characters, allowing certain questlines to progress and items to be acquired. If I'm being honest, I think FromSoft incorporated Spirit Ashes as a way to circumvent and discourage players from relying too much on coop/multi-player by introducing a "controlled" means of making gameplay easier for casuals. I don't think it breaks the immersion of boss fights. You still get exposed to their mechanics, attack patterns, and their "bullshit" lol. But I would also encourage holding off on using them till after your first solo encounter with a boss. If engagements with a boss turns out to no longer be fun to the player, I strongly encourage them to use Spirit Ashes so they can get through the unenjoyable boss and move forward with content they might otherwise enjoy, using the controlled mechanic FromSoft introduced.

[@awdgaray]

It's a pretty easy question to answer. Souls games have always been meant to be played cooperatively, hence summons. However, in the lifespan of the games, summoning ends up becoming a problem with the waining player pool. The Ashes is a pretty brilliant way of getting around that Miyazaki's statement is about lore not literally playing with others.

[@vharuv4651]

I don't use spirit ashes because they feel poorly implemented and poorly designed. They have limited player interaction and imo, remove autonomy from the player. If other people want to use them, then that's fine, but I feel pretty meh whenever I pick up 'another' generic spirit ash. At best, for me, they serve as a sort of bestiary. At worst, they're a means for the game to play itself. I don't reduce it down to something like 'easy mode' or 'hard mode', because I don't care about those things. What I do believe is that in a large amount of RPGs I've played, some of the most lazy and tacked on mechanics have included an autonomous companion. Pets and 'summons' on the other hand, often bring some type of behaviour manipulation to the table, or customization. All you can do with spirit ashes are upgrade them, essentially. A large, overwhelming number of them are pitiful to the point they are not worth using. I've used them for the sake of experimentation but I've never used them in a boss fight and I've never felt like I've needed them in a boss fight. Some fights do clearly seemed designed around the idea of you using a braindead autonomous drone to fight with you, but I think those are often poorly thought out. I've killed every multi-boss in this game, back to back, just by learning timings and how to build - that's part of the appeal, for me.

[@tristenatorplaysgames6833]

As someone who played elden ring on the seamless co op mod it was awesome. It was so much fun exploring the world with my friends. Why was this fun versus the standard summoning experience. We were at the same level. The summon system is okay but it should be that spirit ashes are capped. So if you fight margit you can’t have anything above a level 1 summon and if you do it automatically drags them to level 1. This is would allow them to be cool tools to use to help give you an edge on the bosses The easy way to balance bosses in co op is every time you hit a hit a boss theres a 50% chance it’ll aggro on you this way a player will never know if a boss will continue his chain on him or hit his friend.

[@thegitgudgrrl]

Generally, in life, I don't know why a certain group of people think THEY can set the standard for how other people should play and the keyword here is "play" a video game. I use all the tools, engage in the community and that is the way I have fun playing these games, it is not my place to tell anyone that my way is the only acceptable way.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

Yep you’re right. At no point in the video does he say anything like that though so I hope that isn’t an actual criticism of the video.

[@jmiquelmb]

People are weirdly defensive regarding receiving advise. If you get upset because I suggest you how I think you should play, I don't know why would you get upset or feel offended, as long as I have been respectful at all times. Like, it's just a game. Why would you take gaming advise so personally. Of course I don't have a right to force people play in a certain way but that's completely different to telling someone how I think they'll enjoy the game the most.

[@La0bouchere]

Most of a game designers job is to figure out how people should and should not play their games though. Most people on the internet are completely wrong and dumb when they talk about this, but there are actually ways to make a game better or worse. That applies to anything that changes gameplay, whether it's a feature a developer is adding or a feature a player is choosing to use.

[@haunter4764]

I think it's worth mentioning that the game is filled with mini dungeons and re-used mini bosses, especially gank encounters, that a dozen or so hours in, the spirit ashes become a no brainer :D, and strategizing what set of spirits to use in certain scenarios freshes things up. Now for legacy rememberance bosses and most of the game, I'm staunchly no co-op / spirit ashes type of guy

[@depalodor]

Absolutely incredible how some people here typed a comment not 5 minutes after the video released about their stance on this topic. Even bringing up arguments and logic that are being addressed or even entirely denied by the video and thus should make you think if you came into this in good faith. Because they didn't watch and came into this with their mind already set in stone. Sad that we can't have this discussion like normal and maybe come to a better conclusion than the both horrible extremes that dominate the discourse.

[@kayhaich]

Thanks for telling us how to think about how we view things on the internet...the irony that this guy is trying to gatekeep and you're doing the same thing about commenters as a commenter is top tier comedy.

[@depalodor]

@@kayhaich yeah this is the same problem all over again. I'm not telling you how to think. I'm just asking you to watch the video before commenting on its content. This is like making a book report on a book you didn't read. Like reviewing a game you didn't play. I'm not telling you how to think. I'm asking to think before you type.

[@kayhaich]

​@@depalodor I watched the video. You are unable to tell me how to think, but you do have the ability to annoy me. You did that admirably, top credits to you. It's annoying me that you keep trying to tell me how to think, whilst simultaneously denying it. Saying "Should make you think" in any sentence is indicative of someone being forceful as to how you think people should be thinking, then you say this. This is telling people how to think. It's aggressive persuasiveness. You won't in turn understand or be persuaded to my own point, and I'm not interested in anything you have to say, so just leave it there and don't bother replying.

[@depalodor]

@@kayhaich lol

[@zack_feldman]

I feel like monster hunter handles co op beautifully. The monsters are built for handling two players at least, and function decently with three and four. What would you think about in future fromsoft games, if they have bosses specific AI for when there are multiple players? Benefit? Unnecessary?

[@leonardoguerra9913]

The whole point of souls games is overcoming seemingly impossible challenges trough sheer effort and memorization of boss patterns. The feeling of satisfaction that characterizes them comes from the sensation of your sweat and tears finally paying off as the boss falls to the ground. And the bosses in elden ring reflect that, as they are, for the most part(not including ganks or duos) intended for a solo experience(the A.I i mean, you can kite them while your summon or coop aggroes it for you). So yeah, they are a mechanic in the game, but a poorly implemented one. Many players that would actually feel that winning sensation miss it because they have the option to skip it right there, and that’s sad to me. By the way, for people who are gonna comment that they like steamrolling through the game, i say: play a different game. And i say this in the least mean or condescending way possible. I don’t mean you enjoying those types of games is wrong, but i’d like it if souls kept their core identity intact. And the response we have to this mechanic, wich in my opinion is imbalanced and not well implemented, is gonna be felt by from believe it or not, and it’s gonna influence next souls games. Thx for the attention♥️

[@knusperkeks2748]

1.) Create enemies so fast that just facing them is a chore. 2.) Create Spirit Ashes that help deal with these enemies, at the cost of the intended boss experience. 3.) Call it a job well done.

[@anonymousperson8903]

Skill issue.

[@bediahvandougaljones]

For the first playthrough I think it’s definitely important to play solo. After all the first play through is the best exploration experience and you can’t explore at your pace if you are playing with others. Of course if you are having so much trouble with a boss you feel like you’ll never beat it, then go ahead and summon for the fight. It doesn’t matter that much. Especially for the first play through, it’s most important to be able to experience as many things as you possibly can. Make a messy as hell character that’s all over the place. Use everything you can and settle on the things you like most. Then I recommend doing a second play through armed with the experiences you made and truly learn the boss fights. At least that’s how I did it. Made an op wizard the first time play through and steamrolled everything. Then I made an arcane build focused more on occult damage than status effects. And from there I just focused on learning the bosses, how to parry, as well as what can be parried. I can say that because of how I played on my first play through that the boss fights were a little underwhelming (except for malenia). But the experience itself was phenomenal. And then it felt like I had an entirely new game to play on the second play through. After all I had to mainly relearn a lot of things because believe it or not, op wizard build makes you not very good at the game when all you have to do is comet azur. Tldr: play first play through for the exploration and experience. Second play through for the rich combat and boss fights.

[@NUMBER1CLIMBER]

For me, spirit ashes making the game harder because they make bosses unpredictable. I'm the type of player who studies and learns bosses movements, so most of the time o predict the bosses actions. However, with spirit ashes it is different. Bosses are acting totally unpredictable.

[@JKKoneofakind]

Here's my take on this whole thing: Player summons are fundamentally different than NPC summons, and Ashes of War summons are essentially parallel to NPC summons. The reason Player Summons are different, is the intelligence behind them. You can summon a real player, and they can do a number of things to fundamentally change your playthrough, usually amounting to operating as a security detail that doubles as a tour guide. You summon the wrong magic user in Elden Ring, they can turn around and 1-shot Mohg if they were feeling up to it. Humans break the game. I consider NPC summons as fundamentally different, and that has a lot to do with Solaire and his quest line. To progress his quest properly, you have to summon him for Ornstein and Smough, meaning you can't really fight O+S solo unless you forgo Solaire's Quest, and as someone who is very OCD about collecting things in my playthroughs, this means I can't really fault someone for summoning him to fight O+S. This actually applies to alot of NPC summons throughout the series, who have to be summoned for particular fights in order for quest progression. An NPC summon still draws aggro, sure, but they don't have the intelligence behind them a real player does to know when to force the bosses attention off the host. In fact, bosses like Raime, The Fume Knight, are actually harder in some cases with summons. In Bloodborne, if you are offline, you need to summon certain NPC's on your way through the game to get Vermin to drop so you can progress Valtyr's Questline. For someone new at the game, whether it's Elden Ring with it's spirit ashes, or any souls game or bloodborne, I think they should avoid summoning human player characters, while NPC summons and Ashes are open-game, and up to the player to decide. No, you don't need to summon Black Iron Tarkus to kill the Iron Golem, but you should, because Black Iron Tarkus is an absolute chad. For a first time experience, with an exception to real world player summons, I think every tool should be openly available. I still think people should not summon actual players for their first experience with these games, as their intelligence and knowledge of systems can too easily and too quickly break the game. Also, as far as Ashes of War go, I highly recommend the two skeletons ash you get from the Tibia Mariner in Limgrave, near where D is chilling pre-roundtable. They respawn like skeletons are want to do, and since they drop aggro after falling down, they are likely to get back up unless the enemy is dropping big aoe's. They don't do much damage, but given the right circumstances, they can be even tankier than Luhtel, The Headless.