The Spirit Ashes and Co-op Argument | Elden Ring

[@ratatoskr6324]

I'm not telling you what to do.

[@catanyag]

Unfortunately for you, I watched the video before commenting so I already knew this.

[@AARon11414]

That you need to comment this is emblematic of the current state of the emotional health of *people who comment on things online.* Great video.

[@JT_No_Money]

Use whatever u want but don’t expect others to feel like your playing on the same playing field with them because the game becomes completely different when using every possible advantage available.

[@chrizzlyx]

Stop telling me what to do

[@realityvanguard2052]

Spirit ashes destroys the true potential value of what a Souls game can be. A Souls game presents you with a world so worthy of exploration, it inspires and motivates players to face-down challenges, which they themselves might have previously thought themselves incapable of overcoming. In our modern age of convenience and ease-of-use, and avoidance of "suffering" in all forms, at the expense of true personal growth, the Souls series acts as a catalyst capable of helping people realize that they can in fact overcome challenges, which they themselves believed to be impossible for them. Souls is a series that is literally capable of helping people better themselves. Somehow, when I try to explain this to people, they take it as an elitist humble-brag and nothing more, "oh you think you're better than me?". When that is only half of the message I am trying to convey, I am saying, you can be better than you are now, if you just had the motivation to try...

[@Ziostorm]

I’m not a gatekeeper. I summoned for a few bosses during my first run of Dark Souls back in the day. But I have never seen a souls game like Elden Ring where so many players I invade have absolutely no concept of how to dodge an attack or have less than 500hp at the end of the game. This is the first time I’ve seen players in such massive amounts get carried by an overleveled phantom since level restrictions were removed. Phantoms used to feel like part of the world, where a chance encounter from a player converged on your world in a time of need, yet now co-op has turned into guides, carries, and secondary markets for overpowered early game weapons. I understand the appeal of multiplayer, though I can’t help but feel something has been lost in the process.

[@Battleguild]

*Sweats nervously with my 9 Vigor and Primal Glintstone Blade caster build.*

[@IYukimuraSanadaI]

I think the main reason why you tend to see many players that lack the concept of dodging and low HP, is because ER is probably their first entry to the Souls-Borne series. I notice it is either Dark Souls III or ER that tend to be the entry for many players into the soulsborne series, hence the entire concept is foreign from their perspective.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

⁠@@IYukimuraSanadaI I guess it’s more telling how unpopular action games are now. Dodging is a part of pretty much every action game. It’s like playing a shooter and somebody you play with doesn’t understand that there’s an aim button. Or they don’t understand that shooting enemies in the head does more damage. I think to more overall action game fans it’s a bit surprising to find there’s people who don’t even understand the basics of how these games function.

[@ni9274]

Elden Ring was massively popular so it's expected that a much bigger portion of the players will be "casual", especially compared to Dark Souls games which were niche and attracted players who already like challenging games or souls games in general

[@realityvanguard2052]

Spirit ashes destroys the true potential value of what a Souls game can be. A Souls game presents you with a world so worthy of exploration, it inspires and motivates players to face-down challenges, which they themselves might have previously thought themselves incapable of overcoming. In our modern age of convenience and ease-of-use, and avoidance of "suffering" in all forms, at the expense of true personal growth, the Souls series acts as a catalyst capable of helping people realize that they can in fact overcome challenges, which they themselves believed to be impossible for them. Souls is a series that is literally capable of helping people better themselves. Somehow, when I try to explain this to people, they take it as an elitist humble-brag and nothing more, "oh you think you're better than me?". When that is only half of the message I am trying to convey, I am saying, you can be better than you are now, if you just had the motivation to try...

[@bonaquador]

I was staunchly anti-summon my first playthrough, but after using them and testing different spirits on mini-dungeon bosses and overworld encounters that don't feel that rewarding to solo, I had so much fun. Highly reccommend interacting with the mechanic in that way.

[@Romapolitan]

I have tried it, but it's just really and I mean really unfun to me. And so far having played through the whole game solo 3 times was just as fun as playing the other Soulsborne games solo.

[@hellogoodbye3786]

This, to me is a very balanced take. We don't have to strictly choose yes or know as a law for the whole game. Certain exceptions can exist. It won't be a popular opinion, but i personally prefer fighting Radahn with summons. To me it aggrandizes the experience of the festival, it's fun. Not everyone is gonna agree with that, and that's alright, but if by the end of the game we all want to kiss Fromsofts feet for delivering such a splendid experience, can we really say that's wrong?

[@buckyhurdle4776]

I only use spirit ashes that compliment my build. Like my frenzy flame build has the frenzy merchant, pyro build has the soldjars or fortune. This is way more fun. Now, I get excited when I see a 2v1 boss, because I get to use another part of my build.

[@Retro_Rainer]

​@@buckyhurdle4776 Xv1 bosses, that's when I use spirits. as soon as I realised that most bosses that are more than a 1v1 aren't really fun nor balanced, I started using them shits. they rarely complement each other, if at all. from used to be better in regards to multi bosses. I wonder what came first, the spirit summons, or the many multi bosses.

[@manuelmialdea5127]

Way too many players consider this a do or don't matter but I think the game is inconsistent on when it's better or worse. It depends, at least to me.

[@xFrakster]

Feels like most commenters didn't even watch the video. He is not telling you guys to not use whatever you deem to be fun, and he's not shaming you for using summons. So why is every single top comment about that.

[@SirSaladAss]

As Ratatoskr himself said, it's a sensitive issue, so people tend to jump the gun and let their emotions dictate their actions.

[@hellogoodbye3786]

I think it is mostly the idea, the argument itself. Most people, i think, already know, can guess, ratatoskr doesn't give a shit how john doe over there plays the game, he's just commenting on the argument. What is silly is that the argument still exists.

[@audunms4780]

because that is mutch easier than engaging with the work of ratatoskar.

[@xIQ188x]

Haven’t watch the video yet, but going by past videos I’d guess because he says one way is a more “correct” experience while stressing how toooootally okay it is if you wanna do it wrong lmao

[@failegion7828]

​@@xIQ188xaround 2:10 basically nailed it.

[@TheYoungSapling]

I think the accessibility and volume of ashes says a lot about From Software’s intent with the mechanic. They are intended to be used as a tool by players that are so inclined to use them (where allowed), or need to use them to progress. I think a lot of players really struggle with the difficulty of the game, and ashes alleviate a lot of this trouble. They’re also just fun - the variety of them, the upgrade paths, the designs.

[@Verchiel_]

as someone that just recently (past few months) really started enjoying the game despite trying to get into it since release, as a first souls like. I fully embrace them. I'm personally not looking to for the big challenge part, i don't get that "fight boss 15 times and get a huge dopamine rush looking for the next boss once i beat it" effect that a lot of fromsoft fans do. And i do in fact use the tear mimic because having another version of you is just cool. Even with it i wouldn't say the spirit ashes make the game a cake walk. Parts where spirit ashes aren't allowed aside, most of them end up dying during a fight and for certain bosses like Maliketh (the boss i got to just today), i get my ass handed to me still. Rune loss as a mechanic is another thing that just doesn't appeal to me, having to backtrack to where you died is already punishment enough for me. Though to make up for using spirit ashes and disabled rune loss, i am using a first person mod which is what got me to enjoy the game a lot more, not really feeling it to be that much more difficult.

[@keziarosenstock3153]

They definitely are very fun to play with when you’re not steamrolling bosses. I honestly love putting spells on my mimic and seeing all the combos it can do since it has unlimited fp and doesn’t have to deal with scrolling through the spells

[@Galamoth06]

Some people just want to get through the game and see what there is to see.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

@@Verchiel_ I’m confused how a first person mod would make the game more enjoyable. I’ve played a similar mod in fromsofts previous games and I found it extremely disorienting. Is it an immersion thing? Just seems like a very weird thing to make the game more enjoyable to me. Have you just not played third person games before? Genuinely a bit confused.

[@jordanparis964]

You’re meant to struggle with the game. That is a core part of Souls games. Struggling through and over coming obstacles.

[@alielsakkout7415]

i find summons way more fun to use when i'm fighting multiple enemies, but i prefer fighting single enemies solo to get into that soulsy dance and flow state that summons kinda interrupt

[@nebky]

Same, if I'm fighting more than one boss I nearly always summon. Just makes those fights way more enjoyable.

[@buckyhurdle4776]

@@nebky I summon Solaire every time I play through Dark Souls. Do I need him? No. Is O&S more fun with Solaire? Every time

[@thecobe-lee9674]

Same, I summon for ganks and particularly shitty encounters, solo everybody else

[@Kintaku]

I pretty much fully agree about coop, but find Ashes more murky. As someone who played MOSTLY blind, discovering the ashes was fun. And not using the new ones I just found would have felt like a bad way to play the game. That said, I do fully agree when it comes to single bosses, the game feels better when you get into the “dance.” But if your advice is for people to play blind, it stands to reason that the majority of player not accustomed to Souls games will end up using the ashes as a result of exploration.

[@maras00jr49]

I think it's undeniable that the game expects you to use them against double boss fights. That's how i used them on my first run. The double Crucible Knight is infinitely more fun with a summon, turning the fight into a 2v2. There are plenty more examples, that's just the first that came to my mind.

[@tristenatorplaysgames6833]

I like gank fights usually. There’s something fun about coming out on top in a 2v1

[@HeyTarnished]

This also applies to any Souls gank bosses ever, but kudos to ER for providing the option to use them as it's very cool & fun sometimes.

[@Galamoth06]

Ornstien and Smough: Are we a joke to you?

[@evanbaxter7356]

I have 500 Plus hours and have beat the game at level 1, and I definitely feel that Godskin Duo and crucible Duo are more fun as a 2v2, they were designed with the expectation that players were going to be using at least a spirit Ash, unlike ornstein and smough which were designed with a 2V1 in mind

[@maras00jr49]

@evanbaxter7356 100% This is why I have always disagreed with the notion that ER "killed" the 2v1 or 1.5 boss fights from DS1/3. ER never had any intention to implement that type of a boss fight. They created the spirit ash system and wanted a place for players to use them, and that's the side dungeons. There's a reason most of the spirit summons and double boss fights are found there, not to mention that the items to upgrade them are also found there.

[@SchroederMH]

The nuance here that Ratatoskr briefly alludes to near the end-but which I think is actually super important-is that there are so many different spirit ashes, as well as 10 levels of upgrades of each. That’s 64 types X 10 power levels. You could theoretically rank them from #1 most powerful (probably a fully upgraded Mimic Tear) to #640 (a level #1 rat ash or something). I suspect a lot of “no ash” purists will try a level 10 Mimic Tear to see what all the fuss is about, and then rightfully conclude that summon completely trivialized the boss. But many of the other 639 options do far less. In many cases, a spirit ash might live 20 seconds, and becomes a tool to get in one free heal or one free buff before it dies.

[@Galamoth06]

When I used spirit ashes, it was almost exclusively the two skeletons. Completely useless for dealing actual damage, but a nice occasional distraction for observing the boss and learning their patterns. Plus they can respawn, so if they get lucky they'll be around longer than some of the tougher upgraded spirit ashes.

[@SchroederMH]

@@Galamoth06Yeah that’s a great pick! Up until Elden Ring, I played the whole FromSoft catalog as a “no summons” guy. With ER, I was happy to use some mid-tier spirit ashes off and on. In my experience, it rarely trivialized a fight, but would occasionally work as an “I get it” button where I could clear the boss after 45 minutes with a few mistakes, rather than need to play another full hour to “show” the game I could do it virtually flawlessly. I used to enjoy the grind of learning the fight so thoroughly I could beat it in my sleep, but with a couple kids, a busy job, etc., I’m happy to be able to calibrate now.

[@BirdMoose]

I 100% feel this, my favorite summon is Latenna because she is a character with a story, but also because she forces the player to play around/ protect her due to her own lack of mobility. Weaker summons feel like a great addition to the game, its just the super strong ones that can essentially solo the game which hurt many players experience.

[@normalrachael]

@@BirdMoosethat’s why she’s my favorite too!!

[@rosameltrozo5889]

Why wouldn't you use the best ash if you're going to use ashes though?

[@Dr_Donald_Duck]

I'd argue there are areas where the intended experience IS using a spirit ash. Like shown, in Godricks Courtyard or in some Multi-Enemy Fights like Watcher + Gargoyles adds.

[@kimlee6643]

If anything, after some thought, we can argue that the intended experience is to be trapped in 2v1 fights, specifically for them to differ from any other similar fight (same enemy) that results in the prototypical 1v1. You're likely supposed to be challenged by two watchers and two gargoyles, as poor a challenge as those are. If the reaction to one godskin is a 1v1 where you never use spirit ashes, is godskin duo an implication that it's finally time to use them? At the last stretch of the game? I dunno, I find this reasoning dubious.

[@viktorthevictor6240]

​@@kimlee6643 Considering the godskin duo also lets you summon Bernahl, yeah, it's pretty obvious that's the implication. The ability to summon for 1v1 bosses is most likely just there for newcomers and under leveled players

[@puntacana7550]

Radhan is prime example too

[@user-yw5me7pb2x]

cope

[@reign1594]

I've already beaten the entire game without summons, for the rest of my runs I've used summons.

[@feldered]

I did not use spirit summons for most of my first playthrough because I played blind and never got back to church to get the bell from Ranni. Still I find that especially duo and trio bosses were originally made to be fought against with summons because they attacked you together. Then they changed it for other to wait on background to please those who refuse to use summons.

[@enman009]

Here's a fun tip: most duo bosses don't attack simultaneously when you maintain distance: only one engages after the other, but have to give them distance. Patch 1.04 introduced that change, and boy does it make the difference compared to release ER.

[@minerman60101]

The game throws that and the wondrous physick in the Twin Maiden Husks' store if you skip the main places you acquire them

[@fastenedcarrot9570]

​@@enman009 Honestly, the Gargoyles barely feel like they've changed from that while the Crystalian groups and some other duo bosses now feel far too easy. During the fight I'm actually wondering why one of the is stood there doing absolutely nothing.

[@enman009]

@@fastenedcarrot9570 Yeah, Gargoyles Duo, the worst gank in the game, is barely any different. Whereas Crucible Duo and other random combinations actually feel like they allow you to breathe. For someone that doesn't use spirits, I'm glad that they're not spamming me to death.

[@Sablemae76]

I've done playthroughs with and without spirit ashes and it's sometimes easier and sometimes not. Their health goes down faster but the bosses can feel unpredictable and chaotic. They can turn on a dime from attacking your ash to attacking you. There's a bit of a give and take with ashes.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

If you’re already good at fighting the bosses co-op can absolutely make them harder. A lot of their normal behaviour breaks and it’s also harder to position yourself correctly.

[@depalodor]

However, the give that you get from bosses having seemingly random attack patterns because multiple targets break their AI isn't worth much imo.

[@Christopher-eq1rn]

@@depalodorit’s not their ai breaking, it’s an aggro system and differing move priorities.

[@tymak_cz]

Sometimes I wonder why is this so heated topic. Obviously its important game mechanic given you by game developers and therefore use it as you want. The argument against spirit ashes most likely coming from veteran Dark souls players who want to get the Dark souls feeling and have The Dance with bosses. If you want to focus more on the exploration and lore and don't get stuck on every boss for hours, go for it and its perfectly fine. And remember, if someone tells you something like: "You have to go solo to have proper Elden ring experience." it usually mean: "You are not having MY dark souls nostalgia enhanced experience and I don't like it".

[@Spider_Gooch]

I think there’s a line between people who use mechanics in a game to engage with it in a sincere way and those who don’t. I definitely know people who used cheese and ashes to undermine parts of their experience intentionally. I felt like this originated from a notion that the game was designed to be malicious and therefore nothing was off the table. Maybe that was fun for them? I think this is very different from someone using ashes or co-op to simply enjoy the mechanic. Some of my favorite memories come from solo fights and co-op shenanigans I think because no matter how I was playing I was engaging with the game sincerely.

[@Phirestar]

I feel there’s an inherent problem with people assuming that every single person is going to enjoy the game in the same manner. Saying that, “You will have the most fun by not using summons.”, is treating human beings like they’re identical creatures that all share the same thoughts, the same feelings, and hold the same values toward certain ideas. To me, it would be no different than if I were to say to you, “You shouldn’t look up any lore videos. You will have the most fun playing Elden Ring if you collect all the items, complete all the NPCs quest lines, and piece the story together yourself.” Maybe that is the case for some people, but it doesn’t mean that everybody is going to like doing that. The mere fact that there are those who don’t like Elden Ring at all is proof itself that there’s no one-size-fits-all playstyle that’ll make the game appealing to everyone. If someone doesn’t end up enjoying the game as much as others, I think that’s perfectly okay. I myself have run into that scenario before, where I played a game that lots of people said was amazing and one of their favorite games, and I ended up just seeing it as “okay”.

[@ardgwatlol]

Worth noting that you can actually use both NPC summons and spirit ashes at the same time. Spirit ashes are only exclusive with player summons, not NPC summons.

[@balazshodossy8886]

I think in this discussion a really important factor is lost, it's not just exploration and overcomong challanges that are extremely valuable in Elden Ring (and all the souls games for that matter). My first Fromsoft game is ER, and my first character took 120 hour to play through the game, but i started (on patch 1.08 i might add) because i wanted to experience the world after watching other people's videos and lore explorations, i had less interest in thr "challenge". Since then i have more than 800 hours in the game, i finished the game (all great runes, plus whatever i feel like or i need for my build) with every weapon class, without summons/multiplayer, and i learned the rythm of the combat, and i think it's a masterpiece, but that's not what got me to play this game. I think this is the first title where the degree of freedom for the players enjoyment is higher than ever before, you are granted the tools to choose your own adventure, even on the rpice of it being less curated. In this sense i think these comparisions are pointless, because ER gives more way to enjoy it with less restrictions, even if some of the DS games can provide a better experience in some of those fields, ER is the only one that is this diverse, and i would say it gives a decent experience in all it's aspects. My poont is, let people enjoy their game how they want, and encourage them to try improve and learn as well, in hopes of them seeing the true masterpiece

[@PlatinumAltaria]

I can't believe Miyazaki keeps accidentally putting magic and summons into every single one of his games, even though you're not supposed to use the features that have always been a part of the game! Why is it that people can't just play a video game?

[@samthompson261]

I went in blind and didn't roomba, as those were Miyazaki's two pieces of advice. I used spirit ashes because when I found them I thought they were dope and didn't know about this online discourse lol. Had an absolute blast.

[@thesunthrone]

Yeah, like half of the side dungeons give you spirit ashes as a reward for clearing them. It's really weird to even try to argue that using them is against the intended experience.

[@alrightalright4585]

What does Roomba mean?

[@samthompson261]

@@alrightalright4585 going everywhere and doing everything systematically as to not miss any content, like a roomba.

[@enman009]

Ignoring internet discourse tends to be the sanest and mature way to go, since it allows you to avoid unnecessary negativity, ie: using anything other than pure melee or enjoying the bosses.

[@alrightalright4585]

@@samthompson261 Ohh, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. That's how I did my first playthrough... Never Again!

[@Battleguild]

I actually wish Spirit Ashes was a spell school rather than an area limited consumable. Though if they were to do this, the ashes would have to be readjusted appropriately.

[@zacharron]

That's a cool idea. Have a certain amount of Ashes available for everyone but make a school of magic that specializes in them and can use a larger variety of them and make them overall stronger.

[@Battleguild]

@@zacharron If they were both items and spells, I guess they could be balanced in this way: Summoning Bells as a new Caster Focus (Levels with Grave and Ghost Wort, as a counterpart to Standard and Somber upgrade materials) Spirit Ashes can be leveled and scale as normal. Spell version scales off the Summoning Bell instead. Item version is one use and lasts until defeated, Spell version stays around for only a few actions before dispersing and can be summoned again multiple times as FP permits but only one can exist at a time. Summoning a new spirit while another is active, will unsummon the oldest spirit. (Think of the Spirit Summons in Rennala's 2nd Phase.) Grave Spirit Ashes only require 1 Spell Slot, while Ghost Spirit Ashes requires 2.

[@zacharron]

@@Battleguild let's write to FromSoft about it.

[@vincentblack7032]

The game is already a gank squad no need

[@DeadpoolX9]

Holy shit a USE FOR ARCANE!

[@LAK_770]

Everyone should give themselves a chance to solo bosses. It’s always easier than it seems - what feels like total domination is often just a matter of calming down and noticing/fixing few big mistakes. The mindfulness and patience necessary for this approach seems to be rare though. Once you’re in this habit though, spirit ashes can be an extremely fun way to approach replays, adding a ton of spice and variety. Try out different ones, find favorites, buff and support them, etc. One fun activity is to try and keep your Miranda Sprouts alive lol

[@sk8legendz]

As a mimic main to solo beating the whole game my take is that The game will hand your ass to you on a platter while your +10 mimic watches in horror. It doesn't save you from being bad at the game So I don't view summons as any more helpful or putting the game on easy mode anymore than broken bleed builds. They'll carry you sure, but only so far. You still have to learn the game. RL1 wretch club looks easy by Ongbal. But id have a hard time. Likewise there's people stuck on malenia right now with their ROB and Mimic combo. Because they just never got good summons and OP weapons are like a car, they'll get you home faster than walking but if it dies, you better hope your legs work I think new players that feel helpless to advance should use EVERYTHING to enjoy this game, I think players who need a challenge have plenty of options available. And I'm glad fromsoft made it this way.

[@buckyhurdle4776]

Summoning living, breathing, human players in Dark Souls will always be infinitely stronger than any spirit ash. People have been getting carried through the entire game since Demon's Souls. For some reason, no one ever engages with me when I bring this up. I do not understand what the difference is supposed to be. If the Fromsoft game has multiplayer, you can be carried. It has always been like this.

[@sk8legendz]

@buckyhurdle4776 I agree Player summons are the real carry. I quit using them after a guy nuked malenia in front me an the other summon lol

[@lunamanson9681]

Nah sorry, the game's AI is completely geared towards the bosses fighting a single enemy. Most fights are completely trivialized by having a summon there. How do I know? I'm leveling a new character for the DLC and using summons to rush all the fights. You don't need to know patterns, you don't need to know bosses, you just summon and attack when the boss turns around. Repeat once or twice maybe if you summon dies too early. Using them is whatever, people can do what they like. But having done a run without any summons at all and now one using them, they're literally different games.

[@jackalx2154]

This comment is complete lies. If you use meta builds, cheese tactics and consumables you can absolutely shred everything with mimic tear.

[@shevankaseneviratne1724]

@@buckyhurdle4776 yeah but back then it cost rare commodities. In bloodborne u needed insight which was finite in the open world and the game's bosses werent designed around summons cuz of that. And spirit ashes dont increase boss health in elden ring. Only players that are summoned do.

[@BirdMoose]

I will say there is a huge difference between weak and strong summons as well. I think your average player would have a pretty good experience regardless of summons if they were summoning jellyfish, or clay men, or giant rats who would have a small impact on most boss fights. Even medium strength summons like Lattenna, imps, most of the soldiers, etc would certainly effect a playthrough, but not hugely. But most players I talk to who use summons pretty much use mimic tear, often after having been guided to it, or maybe another top ash like Lhuthel or Tiche. These strongest summons often play the game for you, and of my friends who have played Elden Ring, the ones who enjoyed the game the least were those who played with these strong summons. While I'm a no summoning purist for myself, the only thing I'd really recommend not using is top summons like Mimic Tear. When I played DS1 for the first time, I didn't have xbox live so I couldn't play online, and was forced to grind through the game alone. Frankly, I would have probably summoned given the opportunity and I doubt I would have fallen in love with the series in the way I did. When I try and steer players away from summons, its not pretention or gatekeeping; I'm trying to introduce them to why I love the games.

[@ni9274]

I think we need to acknowledge that Elden Ring is the type of game you can enjoy even if you don't engage with the boss fight mechanic and use cheese , there is still the feeling of exploration, the feeling of becoming stronger and beating boss with the items that you found in the world, the lore, the intricate level design.

[@KulHadar]

Serious question: If you don't summon and don't use cheese could you potentially enjoy that feeling of getting stronger and beating bosses more fully? That's fundamentally what Rata others on his side (me included) are arguing. Not that there's some mark of shame on people who summon or use cheese, but that doing so might rob them of an experience they could enjoy even more.

[@zacharron]

Or after beating their head against a boss 20 times they might just quit and never get to experience all the other wonderful things these games have to offer.

[@aureateseigneur5317]

​@@KulHadarSerious question, you understand that what you find enjoyable isn't what everyone else finds enjoyable, yea?

[@KulHadar]

@@aureateseigneur5317 Completely. I'm not demanding anyone play my way, I'm suggesting they give it a try. Because they might discover something they don't yet know they will enjoy. And if it turns out they don't enjoy playing that way then fine, they go back to what works for them. I don't see why anyone (not pointing this at you btw, just speaking geenrally) feels the need to get defensive at the suggestion they try playing a different way. It's like trying a new food, maybe you like it, maybe you don't. But what's the harm in giving it a shot? Or in asking someone to give it a shot?

[@KulHadar]

@@zacharron Only 20? Do you have any idea how many attempts I've put on Malenia, for a measly 3 wins? Jokes aside, if what Rata and I are suggesting its too much for a given person then fine, they play their way to enjoy the other stuff. We're just suggesting they try playing our way first because they might end up enjoying it, or enjoying certain facets of the game more fully. Doesn't have to be about summons and boss fights either. One of the most magical moments I had in Elden Ring was first discovering the lift in Mistwood down to Siofra River, while frantically running away from a Runebear. I refused to use any guides on the first playthrough, so it would be full of organic moments of discovery, so I could immerse myself more in exploration. And I was rewarded for doing that. Same principle applies to summons/cheese, you might find more reward not using them and winning anyway, than using them to win. It's not a guarantee, but neither is the advice a demand. It's a suggesstion for a potentially better result.

[@AZAELinvaded]

My favorite way to use Spirit Ashes is when I do a second, third etc playthrough of the game and I decide to have "flavor" company while doing so. Like, for example, I would only use Spirit Ashes that are thematically connected to the theme of the build I am using. It's cool to enhance the roleplay aspect of this game even further. Also, I like to use them sometimes on duo fights, or for an encounter with a boss type I've already defeated more than once in my playthrough, like the Ulcerated Tree Spirits. I didn't use them much on my first playthrough, not for bosses for sure, but I like them as a mechanic.

[@imhere5114]

My first playthrough I tried to not use summons but that first game is so tough. Even as someone who played other games it felt incredibly different so I started using summons and I enjoyed the game way more. I don’t understand why people feel the need to bash people for their play style

[@magicfoogieA]

Could you technically apply this sort of logic to any mechanic of Elden Ring? Let's look at Torrent: - Torrent is legitimate and intended - Elden Ring is balanced as a single player experience, Torrent is a mechanic tacked on to a preexisting structure. - Using Torrent has costs: 1. Disrupts the flow of open world exploration, like riding through most of the map without engaging a single enemy. 2. Disrupts the flow of combat and fights (in the overworld) by allowing you to quickly escape and easily outmaneuver them. 3. Torrent at least does not affect legacy dungeons. But I don't think anyone will discourage using Torrent. Or at least, I can't see Ratatoskr making that claim even though it checks off most of his criteria. --- But back to the larger discussion at hand and I'm avoiding co-op since I agree that the mechanic exists outside the intended single player experience, I actually disagree that Spirit Ashes were mechanic that was not intended to be used. Miyazaki purposefully placed the introduction to Spirit Ashes early in the game. He also did so strategically where he might expect players to circle back to in Limgrave (Kale's church) to upgrade weapons or purchase items. More importantly, their use within the game can directly impact the story and characters, allowing certain questlines to progress and items to be acquired. If I'm being honest, I think FromSoft incorporated Spirit Ashes as a way to circumvent and discourage players from relying too much on coop/multi-player by introducing a "controlled" means of making gameplay easier for casuals. I don't think it breaks the immersion of boss fights. You still get exposed to their mechanics, attack patterns, and their "bullshit" lol. But I would also encourage holding off on using them till after your first solo encounter with a boss. If engagements with a boss turns out to no longer be fun to the player, I strongly encourage them to use Spirit Ashes so they can get through the unenjoyable boss and move forward with content they might otherwise enjoy, using the controlled mechanic FromSoft introduced.

[@DoomsdayMayBeOkay]

I don't use the Ashes because i think it ruins the sense of accomplishment for me personally. Same think with DS and Bloodborne. I would never shame a player that decides to use them though...

[@juanhurtado7244]

I do.

[@rogalcorn734]

@DoomsdayMayBeOkay. It ruined the immersion for me. I remember Godfrey's speech after I beat him felt awkward, because all I did was sucker punch him back and forth with my mimic.

[@JahIthBer]

You make a lot of great points. My issue with summons and spirit Ashe it just makes the game too easy but for the 2v1 fights it even outs the odds especially the gargoyle boys. I have the same stance as you for the first playthrough you should def not use co op summons but I’m more open to spirit ash being used in a 2v1 situation. It just makes it too easy you will steam roll through all 1v1 boss fights the whole reason the series is famous is for the difficulty. The high you get after beating a tough boss is the best.the game is not designed around a co op system like you said it’s a single player game with co op added on.

[@Aldoz]

I was more or less brand new to souls games when I played Elden Ring, and so I had few reservations about using spirit summons. For me they seemed to function like a crowd control ability, often I’d meet a boss where there were several enemies in the boss arena, or just a particularly difficult boss for my build to deal with, this is when I would use summons. I saw it as a way to get some heat of my back at the start of a fight so I could better find my footing and understand how the boss worked. I didn’t really have a good understanding of how to fight bosses properly, so I think without a lot of these tools, I would have struggled to actually finish the game and all the bosses. Maybe some people think that players like how I was back then doesn’t deserve to beat the game and experience it in my own way, but I love Elden ring, and if I didn’t fall in love with it playing it like that, I might have never understood how older fans enjoy the game, and I can now enter the DLC with the same mindset as them to challenge myself.

[@tristenatorplaysgames6833]

I think they’re fine but the fact that you can get them maxed to level 6-7 so easily is really broken the bosses should auto de level your to 1 or 2 depending on what stage you are in the game

[@Kitth3n]

This was how my first bloodborne playthrough was. And it was was still challenging regardless. I think some seasoned vets forget how different souls games are and/or don’t want to admit how tragic their first runs were

[@porkwhisperer3050]

@@Kitth3n tragic their first runs were?

[@dsVektor]

My personal issue with summons is that it fundamentally changes how the bosses play. The very thing I find enjoyable, which is engaging the boss head on, is gone. You can, for the most part, simply ignore learning the actual fight itself. Another gripe is players not understanding this fact and wonderding why we think ER bosses are the hardest. No, Malenia isn't easy.

[@absoutezeo2126]

I'd like to add that spirit ashes actually have a tangible HP/FP cost, unlike cooperators. You can also only summon spirit ashes once if they die, unlike co-op which can just go on endlessly without a meaningful cooldown.

[@kingnro1]

The cost really isn't very meaningful unless you're low level

[@tymak_cz]

@@kingnro1 Its quite meaningful. For example unless you are spell caster or really overeleveled character, you can't afford the stronger summons.

[@hockeater]

@@tymak_cz And even if you can afford one of the actually strong summons most of them will be equivalent to an entire flask spent in all probability.

[@MrFool-cv5hf]

The problem with this argument is that the best summon in the game costs 660 hp, so if you have 21 vigor you can use it. And a single flask is definitely not the appropriate cost. ​@timkom2289

[@hockeater]

@@MrFool-cv5hf Sure it is. The mimic is only even strong if you've put time and effort into building a strong, tanky, well-equipped character. Further you're welcome to try it at vigor 21, be a single fart from death until you get a moment to heal, and hope nothing taps you. Or you could I dunno.... Level vigor like a sane person? Further still of course it's intended. Several of the games most extensive side quests wouldn't be gating most of the best summons, and their upgrade material, if you weren't intended to find and use them.

[@devasprime6700]

I enjoy them when they're thematically congruent with a build versus whatever the best summon is. Example; I love my Jar themed barbarian, aka the Jarbarian, so I love using Jar Warriors ashes because they fit even though they objectively suck

[@cirnobyl9158]

The melee combat choreography in Elden Ring is really well-designed and fascinating. It's incredible how nearly every move can kill you in a matter of seconds, but nearly every move can also be used as a window for aggression. That's not something you'll be able to enjoy fully if you have spirit ashes / co-op. Perhaps the loss of this enjoyment is worth it for some players as a tradeoff for getting through the game faster, but I simply think it's not worth it for most.

[@failegion7828]

It's kinda funny, i'm full board against stuff like Defender armor in Monster Hunter for first time players generally, but when it comes to Soulsborne I'm all for the if you need help, get help attitude. Thinking about it perhaps it's just a "try it solo first" approach. If it becomes frustrating than it becomes a loss of enjoyment regardless. Which a loss of such may be reduced by seeing it's just a hard boss or even completely negated by conquering said boss with a summon.

[@naruroGCS]

@@failegion7828 Some fights are not really hard, but right into the bad game design territory and even then you dont need spirit ashes. I highly recomend a melee only playthrough trying to learn how to fight every boss, maybe it get frustrating some times but when you get the combat flow some fights are just amazing in a level never seen in the series. BTW stagger the boss, hold/jump heavy/dodge attack are your best friends.

[@failegion7828]

@@naruroGCS Eh to be honest I always found the short combat times don't allow much amazement besides tight hit box trades in the soul series. Usually you kill the boss in a minute or two or they kill you. Through there is the satisfaction of taking down the boss as swift as possible. Hoping one day Fromsoft actually goes full in a monhunt type game. I'd love to experience a 15-30min slugfest with Midir or Yhorm for example.

[@Auvisome]

Nerd

[@kurisi5563]

See I'm the opposite I enjoy fights more with spirit summons because its easier and gives more breathing room

[@nadaburner]

TL:DR do what you want. You don't have to listen to the youtuber who has a platform to voice himself and other people with less presense. Listen to yourself above others when it comes to non-harmful recreational activities. Ignoring all opinions on the matter, not watching the video (yet) and quite literally speaking summoning and spirit ashes are mechanics implemented into the game for the sake of going through bosses and certain areas (spirit ashes). Not using it is somewhat similar to choosing to not use Ashes of War or Jump Attacks. All are valid choices that the developers gave us to use. If you personally want to make the game more challenging you can choose to impose restrictions on yourself but I only ask that you don't act childish and brag or belittle other's efforts and playthroughs. It's not like you paid for their game. EDIT: commenting while watching: 1:53 I am going to counter argue this by saying the early caves and legacy dungeons offer summons. This game is not easy and plenty of new players got this game as their first fromsoft experience. Because you "think so" isn't enough when the opposite can just as easily be said and the game's design encourages summons. 2:49 You don't have a statistic. Also from my experience most people are casual which is why games like CoD and Apex Legends are super popular and in competitive games there is a massive skill gap with most people being in the lower ranks Overwatch's skill ratings is a bell curve so the average rank are in the middle (Gold) instead of being bronze. 3:33 A key thing you forgot was he gave the tools for people to use and you left out "If possible" so even he's sure people will search up things eventually. You also over exaggerated your theoretical examples after. 4:04 "but that doesn't mean he isn't right" Right about what? Be more clear. His quotes state he wants people to enjoy the freedom and exploration while avoiding spoilers and guides as much as possible. Where did he say something objective? As far as I can tell it's all recommendations and opinions. 4:07 - 8:10 "just because something was there doesn't mean the core of the game was balanced around it" That's another issue entirely which is a game's balance. You went on to rant a lot about coop in general, my take is Torrent is disabled because you are meant to have help for specific areas or bosses not to be assisted the entire journey which is also why they leave after a camp or boss is cleared. 5:41 your word choice adds bias to your statement, I also ask you to list meaningful areas that are inaccessible due to lacking torrent. 6:42 I also ask for all the areas that teleport you because I've personally only experienced one and as I wrote earlier I don't think summons are meant to be active for multiple areas which the rooftop section takes you through 2 areas and is an exception. I personally think you are over exaggerating the rooftop section and from memory It has a key item for thops, a (cool but bad) crossbow, a stat changing crown that I think is NOT worth it and another with some use, a staff I don't recommend an imbued Key and a spell. Area is generally not useful unless you're a mage or want Thop's Barrier. Imbued key is useful if you want the spectacle of Farum Azule or Nokron but the only useful teleport is the start of the game in the 4 belfries. 7:21You're not meant to have a summon on you 100% of the time this was a bad faith argument against summons I think as the game doesn't want you to use them literally everywhere through multiple areas in the same session. 8:10 - 10:36 Missing secret items can be annoying, especially when you are a collector or just prefer to do everything, other players will inherently and potentially ruin immersion in many games Elden Ring is no different. I also personally know people who don't like exploring and greatly dislike backtracking so having summons to lead is nice for people with those preferences. In one my friend groups I decided to verbally give vague hints and took note of what most catacombs/caves rewards were since I explored a lot and got burnt out on them so I'll only hint towards ones with good or interesting loot. 10:36 - 13:19 Morgott specifically I know a lot of people fight early so their stats are unreasonably low to deal with him. It's less immersion breaking to use Rogier, later Nepheli for Godrick and also the spirit ashes due to narrative reasons for having them in the fight. Radahn is also designed to be fought in a massive group and bosses are designed to input read punish you for healing and catch panic rolls. The worse example is probably the player summon for Mohg that was an infamous clip. Don't know why Remnant 2 is brought up. Certain weapons, setups and spirit ashes undeniably get far more value than others especially with the right setup such as prayerful strike mimic on a tanky build + shabriri's woe. It can solo pretty much everything except Malenia but even against her mine lasted a few minutes straight tanking her hits as I sat aside. Most spirit ashes aren't anywhere near as bad but there are for sure more valuable summons just like players as some players get defeated too quickly and don't due much while others are consistent and do lots of damage or distracts too often.

[@Terminarch]

Ashes are in such a weird place. Fundamentally they are a handicap, no doubt... and potentially such a powerful one as to utterly trivialize some content. On the other hand, they also fundamentally change "the dance" to such a degree (when not outright removed) that it enables new strategies. Get a beefy summon to play support if you'd like... or maybe spec tank with a ranged summon. That's a totally different experience and I'm glad it's not limited to co-op or NPCs anymore. Opening up the player for not only cooperative strategies but also *specialized* strategies is great. Otherwise in every fight every solo player MUST be tank & dps & support. Imagine raid level content lmfao

[@kurenian]

The peak of co-op was fighting with Siegward and Anri against Yhorm and Aldrich, as well as Burnt Ivory King. There was at least a thematic meaning, character meaning, buildup to those. There was a meaning for those fights being co-op and that made them special. Quality over quantity imo from a thematic perspective. Would also be cool to have invaders invade during boss fights a la looking glass knight.

[@Jbswe]

Champions of fia are real players

[@forkbundle3073]

Before Elden Ring released, I had played dark souls 3 for a ridiculous amount of time. Truly, I had to have clocked 10000 hours in that game. I played it so much that I hated it and never wanted to see or hear from it ever again. I can still see the layout of every map in my minds eye, I could draw a map for you of every level and how they connect. So, with that being said, I was pretty confident that I would not have trouble with Elden Ring. I was sure that it would be easier for me than most people even if I was a little rusty. I was wrong. WAY WAY off wrong. I struggled to fight even basic enemies, I didn't know their attack patterns or any of their moves yet. I spent at least half of the game using the starting straight sword the mage gets because for some reason I couldn't find any weapons. I swear I went into dungeons and fought all sorts of enemies but nothing ever dropped a new weapon my character could use! Every tough boss fight boiled down to me scrounging together as many advantages as I could just to barely scrape by and get to the next area. Oh and you know when I got that mimic tear I brought that dude to EVERY boss. any time they would let me summon him he was coming out. With all that being said, Even as an experienced player, Playing Elden Ring was like playing my first dark souls all over again. It's important to remember that new players are not going to understand how leveling up and upgrades work. They very well may have one 300 damage magic infused straight sword for half the game. And about 30 vigor? We didn't know how much we'd need back then. Especially towards the end of the game holy geez Maliketh hits hard. Just remember that for a new player, things like steering their character and leveling can seem incredibly difficult. I do not blame anyone for leaning on Omen killer Rollo for the whole game, as I did. That's how I beat Malenia, Rollo squashed her and I spammed sword of night and flame AoWs at her. And you know what? I still felt accomplished and celebrated when I beat her.

[@MegaLotusEater]

You had 10,000 hrs in DS3 and struggled with basic bosses in Elden Ring? How is that possible? I can't fathom it.

[@bustword]

Hot take but for most boss fights you don't get that feeling of a dance at all. There is only a few bosses where their move set was good enough that I want to go in solo and experience the "dance".

[@smoop365]

Elden ring was my first time playing a souls like, I used summons throughout the game and didn’t use a guide and it still took me like 175hrs, it also got me used to the mechanics of the game, like training wheels, now on my second play through without and still recommend summons to people new to the game bc of its crazy learning curve

[@PiiskaJesusFreak]

Good video! I'd like to add that there are some (not many) bosses that seem to be balanced around summons, namely Radahn and Godskin duo. Plentiful npc summons are provided with Radahn so that you can face him at lower level than otherwise, and Godskin duo doesn't seem to work very well together, making playing with spirit ashes feel a lot more natural at least to me.

[@subject8776]

I used spirit ashes on my first playthrough when I hit a wall against Malenia, I then got lazy and used it against Mohg and Elden Beast too. The victories against them didn't feel that satisfying so I played through the game a second time without any spirit ashes or npc summons, me against the world. That felt right to me.

[@okrelayer]

Something else I wanna add about spirit ashes is that why are there some bosses you CANNOT use spirit ashes for? Unless I miscounted but there are 16 unique bosses in elden ring you can’t use your spirit ashes with. You’d think that maybe from software wanted to leave some really challenging bosses where you can ONLY solo them. However most of the bosses (evergauls) you can’t summon for are way easier than any of the main story bosses solo. My theory is that fromsoftware balanced the game around solo areas, as well as areas if you choose you can use a spirit ash. Which makes me truly feel that ashes were designed to be a core part of the game. I beat orphan of kos on my 2nd try, and I find many of the main story bosses in Elden Ring way harder than anything in the previous games. It sucks because I think that the game cranked up the difficulty too much solo, but spirit ashes makes it too easy lol. So I’ve been trying different spirit ashes that are maybe less effective than the meta ones. With all this said, it’s clear that fromsoft made Elden Ring from the ground up with spirit ashes in mind. Weather bosses were made with ashes from the ground up is up to debate. Regardless, me and my ash boys will be ready for the dlc lol

[@LycanDreams9159]

My memory is famously poor but I do remember there being an interview with Miyazaki or some other dev saying that they went out of their way to include more aoe attacks on bosses to balance them around ashes. You can see this best in the first major boss godfrey who is almost all aoe. It’s literally all over the bosses in this game. You can argue that maybe fromsoft didn’t do a good enough job at balancing for ashes but I think it’s disingenuous to say that there was no accounting for ashes. In my first play through I used mostly wolf ashes( because I’m a degenerate furry) and they were so frail I more often than not went out of my way to get back Agro from the boss so that they could last longer. It was a challenge all on its own to beat a boss with even one wolf alive. The fun of hunting with the wolves is better than worrying about the lost purity of the one on one dance when most ashes can’t last a whole boss fight anyway. Of course I know most ashes are stronger than the wolf ashes and I would agree with you in telling people to save legendary ashes like mimic tear or the headless mausoleum ash for a second playthrough. Normal ashes though I do not believe warp the fight enough to warrent treating them like mimic ashes.

[@rogalcorn734]

They should have done it so that if you use spirits, the bosses move faster and have bigger AoEs. And if you don't use spirits, then they could have tuned them to be more forgiving. Definitely could have balanced them better, I agree. Maliketh and Godfrey in particular. They move so fast, hit so hard (yes I had 56 vigor), have long combos with infinite stamina, and massive AoE's compared to previous games. It feels like they thought everyone would fight the last few bosses with summons, and had to hastily up their difficulty in response.

[@marcosramos5117]

Summoning or not it’s a mechanic in the game and gamers should let gamers game however they wanna play. What I do miss though is how invasions worked in DS1 with how Humanity ties into it.

[@adamm5054]

If you buy the game, you have the rest of your life to play it how you want. You can do a challenge run, no summons, summons, no coop, coop. Why be so emotionally charged over something that can be played so many different ways. If you're that charged by it, i suggest you get some fresh air.

[@KevinChiX713]

Agreed I can't stand this whole discussion

[@serjofcinder8925]

There's also a third option which I recommend. Play solo and don't use summons until you get really frustrated. The game is meant to be challenging but also fun yet even annoying at times. If the challenge becomes so annoying that it puts you off continuing, that means you've reached a point where frustration overcomes the fun you experience and here is where I'd use a spirit ash. Also for double bosses, fuck double bosses

[@Sir_Vaza_JTV]

Very true, especially the last part lol

[@AirRice]

This is my line of thought. I'll meet the game halfway as much as possible, but bosses like fortissax not even allowing you to lock onto the feet? twin gargoyles with the same kind of insane flurry attacks? fucking crucible knight duo? godskin duo?? I'll fight bullshit with bullshit of my own, thank you very much.

[@robertwalton434]

Sunbro here. Rata lumped in looking everything up on fextra to co-op. Often the players that need the most help are struggling because they looked stuff up, but can’t distinguish between good and terrible advice. Common noob set up: Radagon sorseal, powerstanced rivers with moonveil, heavy armor (at the cost of fat rolling). I’ve even seen people use carian retaliation on the bell long after the damage was patched. There’s a certain brand of noob that need sunbros for endgame. Am I going to use ashes in the dlc? No. Am I going to carry people that can’t dance? Yes.

[@Knucklebreaking]

THIS! Idk why he didn't tackle things separately. I understand his argument about how coop might be tacked on but Spirit Ashes in particular are VERY in depth and a lot of nuance between them, not to mention there's a extremely high chance that blind players will run into them at some point. A lot if not most of the mini dungeons have rewards for them and they have their own upgrading system. You can even argue that they have more to them than even the flasks. Also playing multiplayer blind with friends or anons is VASTLY different than looking up guides. Your experience will massively change in both scenarios. As a guy that's played with anons your still going to miss a lot and it's up to luck at that point. Playing blind with friends also doesn't add a lot of the issues he mentioned.

[@PinkTuskedMammoth]

I think it should be the other way around, the game (while it's not the hardest one at all) is still somewhat difficult. Especially for people who choose not to run magic. So I think if they want to use the spirit ashes on their first run, by all means, try them out. If you want to challenge yourself later down the road on another playthrough THEN start placing arbitrary rules on yourself like not using spirit ashes or co-op summons. I just think it's weird to suggest that people play the harder way first when that has a MUCH bigger chance of scaring the new people away than to play it the way the game was delivered.

[@Knucklebreaking]

Also if you know literally nothing about the game, you're more likely going to use the summons rather than not. This is probably the only game series I know that actively discourages people from using mechanics in the game. Looking at this from a non souls perspective it doesn't make sense.

[@-TriP-]

I started playing on launch and for most of my first playthrough my character was pretty much a jack of all trades master of none. I experimented with all the different mechanics -- magic, skills, spirit ashes, crafting, etc and if an NPC summon was available I would summon them because in DkS2 and one time in DkS3 there were rewards associated with this and I wanted to be as thorough as I could. I wanted to experience everything the game had to offer. Then for my second playthrough I did a level 1 run using only melee. I guess what I'm saying is that personally I think it's more important to get to know the game in its' entirety before you set yourself a difficult challenge. I know several streamers that only ever do speedruns of ER and yet know _nothing_ else about it, which I find a lot sadder than someone relying on help to get through it.

[@edward.constantine]

I have the true answer to this argument: Play how you want. The fact that this is even an argument that people are having is freaking asinine. People need to grow up, for real. It's a video game. Holy shit. No one cares how you play it. It's not real. It's fake. It's for fun. I feel stupid having to say all this, but unfortunately some of these man-children need to hear it.

[@GILGAMESG069]

I don't care if you use spirit ash summons because I myself use them in some niche situations, I just find it funny that people try to pretend that it's not a totally different experience and even worse calling you a toxic elitist, not for shaming them for using summons but solely because you pointed it how different the game is with them which is ironic because they treat anyone who dosen't use them as a tryhard elitist which is just as toxic Actually taking your time to learn the meticulously crafted boss encounters is now seeing as way for "losers" to prove themselves because of some inferiority complex and not at all because they simply find it more fun This more than anything they do in game is the negative effect of spirit ashes on the community

[@RLQFK]

It's just a way for spirit ash users to protect their fragile ego, if you point out the literal objective reality that summons and ashes make the game 100x easier they'll call you a toxic gatekeeper.

[@SleeplessSpecter]

Game goes from the hardest From Souls game except for Sekiro, to the easiest Souls game by a mile. And people will gaslight you into believing they had a similar experience

[@Galamoth06]

​@@RLQFKliterally, objectively 100 times easier? I'm surprised that your math on that came out to such a rounded number, because my figures have it at a 287.3689% reduction in difficulty. Out of curiosity, which formula are you using to define this objective conclusion?

[@thewretch4081]

True, the difference of using spirit Ashes and not using them is night and day

[@Sirfortune881]

You people realize that the game is so terribly balanced that you practically need the ashes to progress is some situations and yes it is elitist as you see he in fact uses them in the video lmfao and I know you used one at meant once don't be fucken assholes cuz your litteraly makeong people shun these games your your retards so.i wouldent expect morons to understand and no its not balanced around one player idk where people get that

[@mralabbad7]

In my first playthrough, i used a summon every fight and the strongest weapons in the game and every cheese under the sun. . . and I BARELY finished the game in 100+ HOURS! Every fight was hours of dying because i didn't know anything about levels or rolling or dancing or anything. I finished the game underleveled and skipped every unnecessary boss to save time which made it harder for me to find runes and get stronger😂 After a couple more playthroughs, i tried to solo every boss and it didn't even take as much time now that i have a lot of experience to fall back on and I certainly enjoyed my solo playthrough more because of it. My point is, a noob may have problems an experienced player won't even know/remember exist, so they don't have the same needs or wants😂

[@absoutezeo2126]

My suggestion to friends for a first playthrough is that spirit ashes are 100% on the table and even encouraged, but only use them when you're really, really struggling. If you use them all the time, you never get that one-on-one experience you need to understand the timing and hitboxes of bosses. As for co-op, I always recommend people do their first playthroughs alone and then co-op and invade as much as they want afterwards. It's very easy to have your PVE experience tainted by some cheeseball nonsense otherwise, usually a cooperator using some level 700 build or just straight-up cheating with exploits. Having one good playthrough that lets you experience the intended story and immersion is always worth it. P.S. While I do recommend using spirit ashes as a way to help when someone hits a wall, I actually recommend simply leaving and coming back later first. Elden Ring is an open world game, and there's no reason to get yourself stuck (unless it's Malenia lol).

[@Proxy1199]

Or use npc summons for Radahn’s fight - think that fight is actually tailored *for* multiple summons

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

No. You are supposed to hit walls. You are supposed to struggle. You are supposed to lose. If you just summoned every time you hit any kind of adversity you are missing a fundamental part of the Souls experience. Unless you are stuck on a boss for 4+ hours and have gone somewhere else and came back, tried different weapons etc. THEN use summons.

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

@@BusinessSkrub As I said, it is an integral part of the Souls experience. One of the main reasons, if not THE reason that Dark Souls took off is because of the difficulty. Without it, it wouldn't be the same game, and wouldn't have garnered the same type of success that it had. Sure it is not everyone, but it is undeniablely a core part of the series, and serves to enhance the story and world. If someone is playing Elden Ring because of the hype of being a GOTY and all the critical acclaim around it, they will often be disappointed if they just end up using summons and breeze through. If players are happy using summons then great, I just know that the majority of players would have a better experience embracing the struggle. Ya know, the main fucking message of the Souls series.

[@BusinessSkrub]

@@shinyhydreigon7257 no, you don't "know" that. You THINK your experience is the best kind, and therefore everyone else must experience it your way, or else they're having fun wrong. The most important part of souls for me is exploration, lore, and world interconnectivity, which is why ds1 will be my favourite game of all time forever. The games are difficult enough to the point to be rewarding, but if someone can't or doesn't want to do it on their own, they gain nothing by internet cave trolls telling them that they're doing it wrong.

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

@@BusinessSkrub god I love how defensive you people get by a fucking opinion. The difficulty creates immersion, same with all the "obtuse" mechanics and storytelling. Demons Souls would have washed away if it wasnt as unforgiving as it, and all of Souls are.

[@stevemichael652]

Spirit summons act the same as coop phantoms in bosses in that they split aggro and take that dance away from you and the boss.

[@iampain5737]

Co-op Mod was the best thing that happened for the co-op side of things for this game.

[@-Mothy-]

Specially because it gets rid of invasions. I just want to play with my friends without having some red cunt coming uninvited and interrupting us

[@ggwp638BC]

I don't think Spirit Ashes are a "tacked on" function, nor even an extension of NPC summons. While yes, in the base game you can't use NPC summons with spirit ashes, that restriction was entirely dropped in SoTE. Secondly, it's not entirely correct to say Elden Ring bosses were not designed for 2v1s. Yes, their AI malfunctions a lot, this is more of a case of From Software sometimes missing the mark they were aiming for, than a design choice. In fact, when you carefully inspect the deliberate design choices for these bosses, particularly the bosses beyond Limgrave, you see they have several countermeasures against groups - more AoE attacks and animation reading for healing, projectiles, spells and incantations. As per usual From Software fashion, they expanded this even more in SoTE, allowing bosses to change targets even in the middle of the animation, and target the player even if they are not attacking, and as a result allowed for NPC summons and Spirit Ashes to coexist. Thirdly, Spirit Ashes are awarded so early you are likely to get them before you can even level up, and they are given to you with Torrent, which is at the core of the game's exploration. Furthermore, they are an upgradable equipment, and Ghost Gloveworts are often rewards for exploration, in the same vein as Smithing Stones used for weapon upgrades. If we do not consider anything we know about summons from older games, all game literacy tells us that the devs see Spirit Ashes as a core gameplay mechanic no different that weapons, consumables, flasks, and so on. You may not like what this means for boss fights, but there is no argument to say they weren't intended as a core mechanic that also can't be used to disqualify weapons, spells or incantations as intended gameplay mechanics. Ultimately, the argument here only stands on the notion that Elden Ring is meant to be played as Dark Souls, even though it is clearly not. - But some Spirit Ashes are OP I mean, some weapons and builds are OP. Mages can one shot bosses with very little setup before they even get in range for an attack. Bleed melts through everything. You can get an incantation for Scarlet Rot very early on that turns solos several bosses by itself. Elden Ring is a game about being THE Elden Lord, several bosses even congratulate your strength. It is fully a power fantasy and you're meant to be OP and broken. And summoning minions to your aid is also a part of that. Of course there are some cases that do affect the gameplay a bit too much. OG Mimic was way too overtuned, even today it's still is above the curve, but playing with the other spirits ashes is really fun and brings a lot of variety and new tactics to the battle. - But Spirit Ashes make the game easier So does leveling, so does upgrading your weapons, so does using throwables and consumables, so does everything else in the game. It's kind of the point. Spirit Ashes are an intended core part of the game, and it's up to you if you don't want to use them, and that's what is good about From Software. Of course, not using them means you're raising the challenge for yourself, much like not using Torrent significantly increases the difficulty of certain fights and makes exploring harder, but it still is your choice.

[@Derpdeder_]

I always play solo on a first playthrough, however in Elden Ring you can't get organically invaded as a solo player so co-op is my only option. it's a shame but it's the only way I can get the Fromsoft experience I want. so therefore I like to explore in co-op and then do the bosses solo first time.

[@buddymaniac1992]

Why not just use the taunters tongue, there you have your solo invsions.

[@GreatWhiteElf]

​@@buddymaniac1992I'm assuming because it's not organic? I understand where OP is coming from, but it's hard to put into words. Like getting invaded during coop feels more natural

[@heyhoojoe]

Taunter's tongue exists for exactly that reason! So players like you, who like being invaded can get them at all times, but others don't have to.

[@rawrxdtonepforme9360]

​@buddymaniac1992 because the taunters tongue removes the invasion timer like the dried finger and turns all multiplayer slots into invaders when solo. which is a completely different experience from random solo invasion. It's not even remotely the same. In previous games, you'd get invaded once every 15 minutes weither you won or lost, and despite there being the same time limit, it was relatively unpredictable. With taunters tongue, you know you will be invaded at all times and by multiple people. It's more of a race to finish the area than a one and done.

[@rawrxdtonepforme9360]

@@heyhoojoe no it exists to be the dried finger of this game. It does not exist to replicate the experience of random solo invasions. DF and TT work literally the exact same. An invader once every 15 minutes is completely different from an unending horde of invaders with no cooldown.

[@janmoryn8164]

Love how the day progresses in the scene with Church of Elleh as you come closer to the end of the video, nice touch!

[@seracris8357]

In the original Dark Souls summoned phantoms couldn't heal using the estus flask(healing flask). They could only be healed if the host used his own flask to heal. I think this was a good mechanic to prevent summuns to play in a carefree way because they actually had to avoid getting hit by enemies. You also had less maximum hp than usual as a summon. All that is missing in Elden Ring if you ask me. Coop would be suffering by introducing these mechanics but that would be a sacrifice worth for a better single player experience, which this game is at heart.

[@Galamoth06]

There were also healing miracles, but I get what you mean.

[@Grimbonez]

The one thing that always made me feel like the game was in some way balanced around ashes is the dmg/hp values. In ER dmg values seem off the charts, both you and bosses deal extremely high damage, and have relatively small hp pools. Er bosses can sometimes feel like glass canon battles. Ashes on the other hand have STUPID high hp, to the point where some max level ashes can survive multiple waterfowls where a player struggles to tank even 1. This can been seen as early as margit vs jellyfish. Only way these values make sense to me is if the values were made with ashes in mind as an “easy mode”. If ur struggling against a boss, u can hire a bullet sponge to tank some of the hits for you.

[@starchaser1135]

It’s already in the game, so people are free to use them. BUT just because the dev put something in the game, doesn’t mean it is above all criticisms, from a design standpoint. Much like how we criticise features in other games, I think it’s okay, healthy even, that we discuss how game design can be improved, even by a goated developer like FromSoft.

[@MasterDuelCentral]

Fromsoft put this feature in to compensate for their own poor boss design in elden ring.

[@poiumty]

@@MasterDuelCentral I don't think so. I think the boss design is only poor if you consider that the default way to play is without summons. And even then, it's far and beyond most bosses in most video games. If you take into account that the game was most likely designed with spirit ashes/summons in mind... no.

[@MasterDuelCentral]

@@poiumty Oh yeah! I actually agree with you, actually that's kinda the point I'm making just said differently.

[@Aftokraftor]

@@MasterDuelCentral this is the last place I ever expected to see you also I agree some bosses are so damn overtuned feels like queuing into snake eyes for the 57th time

[@MasterDuelCentral]

@@Aftokraftor I stream ER from time to time so shouldn't be too surprising. Will be streaming the elden ring dlc when it drops for sure

[@jvnells8]

Two things can be true at once: Spirit Ashes can be a natural progression of a mechanic that already existed in previous souls games, and they can also be used to appeal to a more modern, casual player base. Personally, I think it's more of the latter and less of the former. Also, two other things can be true at once: co-op can be something the devs want you to use on your first playthrough, and they can be badly implemented and destroy the experience. Personally, I think Fromsoft has lost their way in much of their modern game design, and this is evidence of that.

[@fernandofaria2872]

I agree with you that, potentially, a player will have a more fun and rewarding experience when not using spirit ashes. But i disagree that Elden Ring is not built around multiplayer and ashes. They balance their weapons around pvp, for example. I just think From Software does a poor job at balancing that. Every FromSoft IP had an aspect that contributed to their identity, separating them a bit from Dark Souls. In Bloodborne, it’s the rally mechanic. In Sekiro, it’s deflecting, or ressurection. In Elden Ring, its ashes. Are you meant to use them? Well, obviously. As you said, Miyazaki didn’t create this whole ass mechanic for you to simply ignore it. That being said, there are huge problems with it, and it’s part of the reason why i don’t like Elden Ring as much as their other games. Personally, i don’t use them because they break the boss AI. That betrays Miyazaki’s famous principle of providing more or less the same experience for all players, by not adding difficulty options (something i completely agree). Now, whether you consider ashes a difficulty slider or not, they DO make the game a completely differrent experience, _even more so_ than their previous titles (heck, i’ve never seen a summon solo a boss). The worst consequence, IMO, is that they have now contributed even more to this braindead “git gud” discourse, dividing the already toxic fanbase even more. I soloed every FromSoft boss and personally have absolutely no problem if you choose to use an *intended* mechanic, even though i believe it was poorly implemented. And thats the problem with it, isnt it? If you agree that you should ignore them, then its objectively a bad mechanic in the first place. When i got my hands on the game for the first time, I wanted to engage with that mechanic myself, if not for their ineptitude, in not knowing how to design the bosses around them. There was SO MUCH they could’ve done with it, even making bosses _harder_ if you use a summon, for example. What i mean is different interactions, like finding out that Margit gets stronger and faster when poisoned by the jellyfish, or Godfrey having a different moveset if you summon the bird (that lion could finally actually do something), or a banished knight turning on you if you summon one for the fight with Niall. It would be SO much fun to discover those 🤔… they could even make more overworld puzzles using summons, like the jellyfish one in the Mountaintops. I would be willing to wait an additional year in development to have that; it would certainly contribute to make Elden Ring more distict than Dark Souls. Here’s hoping that if we get to fight Miquella in the DLC he could have a mechaninc like this, making your summon turn on you 🙂

[@Noizzed]

For me the biggest problem with spirits don't have to with the spirits themselves, but with how the enemy targetting system works in such an extremely predictable way, where enemies change target upon being hit. It makes it easy to do hit & run where you just wait for the spirit to hit the boss, and then you're basically invisible for some time. The boss should target based on more factors, such as who is dealing more damage, or focus on who is hitting them the most, or change target less frequently, or a mix of all.

[@noanswer1864]

Considering what you can do to any boss yourself if you are willing to properly prepare, use all the summons you like. 90% of the summons you receive will only be good for pulling a bit of agro before they pop. Some are quite strong, but you get them later. The people saying otherwise either ignored them all from the beginning, or they don't want you to have any backup when their failed arena fighter ass shows up in your world to R2 spam at you. If you're not planning on PVPing, ignore every last one of these people. Play with your friends. Summon your favorite spirits and empower them to their fullest. Explore the map, and enjoy the world. There's as much to the exploration and sight-seeing in this game than there is combat.

[@dgalloway107]

They are a fun addition to a game that is either "deal with unfair boss animations and attack chains that never let you do anything" or "have something there to occasionally draw damage." For instance. In zamor ruins you are either going to be using spirits or multiplayer summons, or you will be having to slowly kill them one by one, because there is no normal character (not level 350+) who is going to be able to take on more than one of those at the same time. Even though they put multiple in the same spots. So your choices are either pick them off slowly, drawing them one at a time, or get some help so you can actually use the combat mechanics of the game. Because 2 zamor knights on 1 player is a player that is dead or fleeing. Like it or not, Elden ring was designed to fight alongside allies, and was not designed for solo. You can do it, but you are being actively punished by the game for doing so. Just like in Dishonored 1 where the game seems to want you to try not to kill things and yet it gives you all the tools for killing, and then fucking sleep darts. So nonlethal runs NECESSITATE playing in a way that avoids combat, as your in-combat options for nonlethal are sleep darts and if your out of sleep darts and have to use your sword then tough shit, run ruined, start over. You CAN technically do a nonlethal run of the entire game, but will that nonlethal run allow you to use most of the game's mechanics? No, it wont. So in Elden Ring, you CAN beat everything solo. Ive even done it. But you are actively choosing to make the game harder by doing so, as the enemies/bosses in this game do not have stamina bars, and you do. If you get unlucky with the moveset, they may even continuously attack, giving you no opportunity to get a single hit in, forever, until you die. With spirits or summons, that infinite attack chain can be drawn towards another, but if your solo your only option is to keep dodging anytime you are close enough to attack. I found that even if i try to dodge everything, the moment that I attack WILL be the moment I get hit. Because like i said, stamina is only a thing for players, not bosses or enemies.

[@minerman60101]

The "endless attack chains" thing misunderstands how you're supposed to approach bosses lol. Sitting and waiting for them to finish is just going to leave you bored and dead. Instead you need to figure out where the mid-combo openings are and take full advantage of them. The more you use your full capabilities of positioning and jumping in addition to rolling, the more such openings you'll be able to eke out. The Zamor ruins suck though I fully agree there.

[@david_kingori]

​@@minerman60101or even as they charge the first attack.

[@Smaxy_]

Just use a throwing dagger to lure a guy its not that hard.

[@DarkAsDeath]

Tbh at first I was like. “Why tf do we have these” Now I’m like. “Omg I hope the dlc has more of them so I can do cool combos and fight along side amazing looking allies.”

[@Sir_Vaza_JTV]

I didnt even know I could summon help my first playthrough 💀 Would totally have pulled some summons out on malenia

[@Firechub3229]

This is worded so perfectly. People get way too offended when you tell them the game isnt meant to be played with summons

[@-TriP-]

I hope that in future games they'll give bosses additional fighting styles to specifically use if you bring summons, like switching up the AI to use more/new AOEs or something.

[@DionPanday]

Youd think after 7 games in the series they’d have enough time to figure that out but they don’t

[@aureateseigneur5317]

​@@DionPandayWhy do you assume they are even trying to?

[@DionPanday]

@@aureateseigneur5317 because that’s what you do as a developer, you improve on things that were bad or mediocre?

[@aureateseigneur5317]

@@DionPanday You have to think they were bad or mediocre to think they need fixing. You thinking they are bad or mediocre doesn't mean they are, or that the developers agree with you even remotely. Gamers have a real self centering problem where they think the way they feel is how everyone else feels or should feel. That's not how any of this has ever worked. FS and most of the fanbase don't find these things remotely "bad or mediocre" so they don't get changed. Your personal preferences for how systems should be isn't some kind of iron clad law my dude. Get over yourself.

[@DionPanday]

@@aureateseigneur5317 bro what are you talking about, stop glazing your favorite multi million dollar company. They don’t even know you exist and you’re sucking them off

[@cantrip7]

While explaining how co-op wasn't well considered because it isn't holistic with exploration, it felt like you could flip the conclusion with the same examples and say these are strong points of design that lead players naturally to a use co-op to for specific challenges instead of general exploration. And I think the enemies are better suited to multiplayer than people think. Like, bosses have wider attack arcs than ever, they switch aggro more smoothly than before... I both help people in co-op a lot and went through a seamless co-op playthrough, and I'm regularly impressed by how the game handles multiple players, especially relative to older games like DS3.

[@ksw8514]

My problem with spirit summons, just as NPC summons in older games, is that they mostly just turn the boss fights into an unpredictable and chaotic mess. Unless we get more control over them, I don't think I'll ever understand their appeal as a gameplay mechanic.

[@andrewkelly1337]

Well the chaos can harm or help you but it does make every fight go differently

[@travtravhaha]

I always looked at it as, you can play however you want. Obviously. Everyone is allowed to have their own experience and if they want to find the easiest way to breeze through the game then more power to them. I really don't think there's any need to complicate the discussion beyond that. However, if I could impart any wisdom to new players, I would tell them to avoid relying on the ash summons and co-op. Both things are great tools if you're struggling, but you really should try to play the game first before defaulting to them. You will never learn how to play the game well if you constantly rely on those training wheels. If you don't care and just want to beat the game, that's fine too. But if you have any intentions of engaging more deeply with the game and "getting gud" then you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot if you rely on spirit ashes and co-op summons to beat everything.

[@Grayald]

There IS no argument. They're there to be used. Use if you want. Don't use if you don't want. Those who use them don't care about people who don't. It's the people who are against them who are screaming and acting like fools.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

The developers clearly expected some people to use them, or at the very least know about them as you can get the bell incredibly early, as well as a cheap summon that every build can use in the wolves. Much like consumables, spells, ranged weapons, Ashes of War, even friendly players are all there to make the game as easy or as hard as you want to make it. It's the devs giving you another tool in the toolbox, it's up to the player if they want to fill that box with hammers and start looking at every problem like a nail.

[@VaneWalker]

I don't think every Elden Ring boss fight is an example of exemplary from soft standards. As someone who's solo'd all of them, I like having the option to trivialize some of the more annoying or gank-ass fights you can stumble into in this game. In some cases it makes the fights more enjoyable. One example is the boss fight before the Lord of Blood's Exaltation talisman. Brother F' those dogs and F' that reduvia nerd. I'm going to summon my 3 boys, the lone wolves, and they're gonna bite some ankles.

[@evanbaxter7356]

The perfect solution is to do multiple playthroughs, you miss out if you never used the ashes at all, but over relying on them does make it too easy for a lot of players. Like the last couple bosses were definitely too easy for me the first time I beat the game because I was using mimic tear and it was pre nerf lol

[@evanbaxter7356]

Additionally some cool things people don't seem to bring up much is how the game does a great job of forcing you to sometimes not use the summons, so a person who is having too easy of a time with them may notice the difference and then stop using them. And for the people who do use them, there's a sort of "skill expression" that the ashes have where you can choose different ones who excel at different roles depending on what playstyle you are going for or even just really goofy ones for the hell of it

[@boshwa20]

Me and my friend did our first playthroughs along side each other. Elden Ring's coop system was one of the most frustrating things we had to deal with. I really hope Fromsoft updates their multiplayer for the foreseeable future, because when SOTE comes out, im already seeing me and my friend connecting/disconnecting just so we can explore the game The multiplayer mod on PC is the greatest thing to come out of for Elden Ring

[@bmardiney]

Without the seamless co-op mod, my wife would never have even bought the game and I wouldn’t have ever kept playing it past Lirurnia. I don’t think FromSoft makes very good games, frankly, and the only thing that makes Elden Ring fun for me is playing co-op.

[@absoutezeo2126]

If you have to mod the game when they've made so many improvements since the DS1 days, this just isn't for you. Find something that is because you're preaching to people who will never have the same preferences as you.

[@boshwa20]

@@absoutezeo2126 Fromsoft's online capabilities have not changed at all

[@Vipertooth007]

@@absoutezeo2126If your plan is to play the game fully with co-op, the current system is bad for it. Then again, it wasn't designed in the way people want to use it. Hence seemless co-op mod.

[@Battleguild]

​@@absoutezeo2126 They've made improvements since DS1, yes, but they've also let go of good improvements along the way. DS2 is a famous example for being the best Caster experience in the Soulsborne series. While Elden Ring did spells really well, it dropped the ball pretty hard at everything else involving Casters compared to DS2.

[@UnknownJudgment]

I think there is a fundamental difference between the "cost" of using summons for areas vs. summons for bosses. The solo experience of an area is a limited commodity, so to speak. The feeling of encountering new enemies, trying to anticipate and deal with unexpected ambushes, and managing one's resources to reach the next shortcut or rest spot can only be fully experienced on a first, blind playthrough. Summoning help that trivializes these aspects ensures that one never has a chance to have that full experience for the area in question (and it's part of why I prefer not to be summoned to clear areas). For bosses, on the other hand, there is always an opportunity to revisit them on another playthrough and fight them solo for the "intended" experience when one is good and ready to. It is not limited in any capacity since the experience is contingent only on the boss and the player's willingness to engage with it rather than on the player's lack of knowledge. It's exactly why challenge runs are so appealing - they call for players to learn bosses on a deeper level and allow one to experience that "dance" all over again, even having fought the boss normally before. This is why spirit ashes are such a well-realized mechanic; they let struggling players seek help against key foes without robbing them of what could be an enjoyable experience of traversing an area blind.

[@vlanson6529]

I never understood why this became an argument in the first place. Summons are an optional feature, so why people started getting mad at that is beyond me.

[@sandros1884]

Perhaps they saw a ton of lets player youtubers/streamers using them in their playthroughs. It's admittedly very boring to watch a lets player summon an ash immediately in boss fight, without even trying solo first (like jacksepticeye). There's no reason to whine about how others play, but i totally see where the frustration comes from.

[@buckyhurdle4776]

An optional feature thats been there since Demon's Souls, mind you. The only ashes people consider using are the absolute strongest, tiche and mimic tear, and they still suck compared to an experienced player. You can be carried in every single souls game that has multiplayer, so I don't see how spirit ashes changed anything. Spirit ashes are just weaker sunbros

[@rogalcorn734]

@@buckyhurdle4776 They are the exact same. Some people hate admitting that spirits are a form of "help" and get defensive about it, and insist it's a tool in their arsenal, and not just an offline sunbro

[@La0bouchere]

There's a nutpicked argument of "people who use summons are inferior players". So when someone says "I recommend playing this way because it'll be more fun" people insert the nutpick instead and then react to that. The result is that tons of people think everyone is saying people are inferior for using summons when it's actually just a handful of trolls on the internet, and most people are just giving recommendations on what they think will be the most enjoyable thing for people to do.

[@inkscript483]

My personal policy about Spirit Ashes is that I don't use them if it's a 1v1 Boss Fight. However, if it's a 1v2 or 1v3, then the Ashes are coming out. In Souls, take Ornstein and Smough for example, there's cover and differences in how the two move and attack that makes it a fair fight. Elden Ring, however, you get matchups like Godskin Duo where both come at you aggressively nonstop with tons of overlap in their attacks. Since Elden Ring handles 1v2s and 1v3s poorly compared to Souls, I think using Ashes is fair play.

[@MadProphet1306]

I love this style of video, it's well structured, you state the arguments that support your claim clearly (so there's no room for needless interpretation). It's a shame that people still seem to miss the point, and are responding to what they think you actually said

[@McDudes]

just do what you enjoy most and you can always go back to do it the other way. Be it without or with summonings

[@pingpong5877]

Remember folks, if the devs put a mechanic in their game, it's a feature that CAN be used. But if you installed an easy mode mod, then you're NOT playing how the devs intended.

[@kayhaich]

Yeah by the way this guy speaks, you'd think that this game wasn't developed by Fromsoft, who think about every single element of their games.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

@@kayhaich he’s saying fromsoft gave you an effective easy mode that’s probably less fun than the normal mode for most people. You do realise that an easy mode isn’t the core experience any developer expects you to have. It’s effectively an accessibility option.

[@kayhaich]

@@porkwhisperer3050 dear oh dear...I know what he's saying, but I don't personally agree with what he's saying. You don't compute fun in terms of difficulty. Fun is fun. Some people think a challenge is fun, some people think saving time from the grind in a game is fun. Generally most people don't compute work to fun on their time off work though. The developer wants you to buy and enjoy the game, and I honestly think they just do not care whether the player does it on easy mode. It IS an accessibility option, sure, but you guys are getting it twisted.

[@porkwhisperer3050]

@@kayhaich An accessibility option is designed to be used obviously. We (me and Ratatoskr) are both arguing that most people will enjoy the game more without spirits or summons if they gave it an honest shot. Your conclusion that most people don’t find “work” fun after working is pretty clearly wrong. You know most people enjoy a sport of some kind, or exercise, or any skill based hobby. The main reason suggesting people don’t use spirits (at least at first)is a good idea is people are bad at putting effort into things for a reward later down the line. Especially when they don’t know that reward is there. Sure if you’re going to quit the game or you’re not getting any dopamine from killing some challenging bosses without spirits then go ahead and use them. The thing is a lot of people will miss a huge part of the game (the action mechanics) what they may enjoy if they spent the time to interact with it. If they use spirits they may just not even get the chance. Or at the very least they won’t experience the action mechanics at their best.

[@kayhaich]

@@porkwhisperer3050 why don't you go play the game how you like without cramming your views down everyone's neck? Oh and stop pretending your annoying opinions are somehow fact.

[@SilverNightbane]

IMO, the game gives you various tools, how you use them is completely up to you. So long as you're having fun, who has the right to police people into not using something that is in the game. At the end of the day, it's just a video game for entertainment purposes. If they wish to challenge themselves, they can just try it again without the spirit ashes.

[@masonreith2382]

I appreciate your videos. After what I saw from you today though, you have some pettiness in your heart. It’s hard to see. Other people have ideas and your gut instinct was “no that’s stupid”. I appreciate you passion but also think you need to check yourself. You aren’t special, nobody is. Don’t expect things, behaviors or insights from others that you might have. It’s a two way street. We are collaborative as a species. Be kind, respectful and less animalistic.

[@MrJay-be9wh]

This is a loaded question for so many reasons 1. The spirit summons are all different and have different functions 2. The amount you level them changes their utility a lot. 3. The level of a player matters a whole lot in this. I've beat every boss in the game solo and with ashes. It's so contextual that it's such a mixed bag. In some cases, you can be leveled too high and the ash can be over powered and leveled so high that it's overkill. In sone cases it can be just right. In some cases you can be leveled so low that the summons are that thing that is just getting barely giving you the breathing room to have a chance to win. When I first played, I got to Margit and Godrick so early, that I was damn near getting one shotted by everything. I don't care enough to do hitless runs, so that under leveled jellyfish was giving me just enough breaks to the point where I had to engaged the battle a totally new way I wouldn't have if I solo'd it (which I later did) by timing things so that I was able to utilize the summon effectively. I had to be cognizant of when the summon would pull aggro and then once it did, I had a limited amount of time before the boss got there, because it wasn't going to survive long. It was actually funner than my second play through on a new character when I just went to those guys at the appropriate level and it was a normal fight. Fully leveled Tiche and Mimic are the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

[@grayjedioutcast3550]

Yes. Use them if you need help. That's what they are there for.

[@aroudingo]

Basically, play how you think is fun. Argument over…

[@theworstcatholic7247]

Here's the thing. It makes the game easier, arguably trivial in many circumstances, summoning can legitimately be nigh the equivalent of handing the controller to your older brother if you want it to be (Let Me Solo Her got famous over it.). Then there are other bosses like the twin crucible knights, gargoyles and godskins that feel like they are balanced around ashes (or just not balanced at all really). It absolutely makes the game significantly easier. People shouldn't rag on others for using summons (lest it be playful banter) but neither should summoners be disingenuous and act like there is no difference at all between the experiences and many will recommend trying it solo because of that.

[@MasterDuelCentral]

I dont like rata's take on this bc he basically ignores the fact that elden ring bosses are unfun and poorly designed much of the time.

[@depalodor]

@@MasterDuelCentral I think you can count the truly poorly designed bosses on two hands. You don't have to inflate that number to make your point. Much of the time the bosses are very doable and fair as a solo player I'd argue.

[@MasterDuelCentral]

@@depalodor being able to count poorly designed bosses on 2 hands is a comically large amount

[@MasterDuelCentral]

@@depalodor I am not inflating numbers by the way. I know people like to think they know better than fromsoft but it's pretty clear to me that there are 2 mains reasons spirits are in the game. 1. When the playerbase fades over the years, people can still get some help on tough bosses. 2. They were a way to address the poor balancing and often poor design of bosses within Elden Ring. (and I also think these balancing issues stem from the open ended nature of elden ring making it harder to predict how overpowered/underpowered the player character might get by a certain part of the game) Doable, fair, fun, well designed are all subjective at the end of the day. I'm confident that the majority of players (unlike what rata is suggesting in this video) would MUCH RATHER have a summon or a spirit aid them when fighting say... Commander Niall, or the gargoyles.

[@fahimtajwaar2521]

@@MasterDuelCentral I find a lot of the times there’s a strong correlation between people calling a boss “poorly designed,” and people having a skill issue

[@Plight_]

Multiplayer co-op is just genuinely fun despite the imbalance. The bit where you talk about co-op seems to me like a problem with the system itself not a fault of co-op. They didn't have to block co-op in the rooftops and such. Overall i feel like these systems help others get into the game that wouldn't have otherwise If they enjoy the game but don't want the solo experience and get frustrated with the dance and would rather trade aggro back and forth with summons or other players more power to them. I don't summon personally but i do enjoy putting my summon sign down and helping players with whatever they're doing. The experience is different than single player but it's definitely worth having. I'd to hate to people keep to themselves because they believe it's the improper way to play. Just the other day i got summoned into a world and the Hosts name was Crazy Cat Lady, a nude old woman aimlessly running around with a straight sword and torch. Had me laughing the whole time. I'd miss out on people like that if I didn't engage in co-op. Not many people finish the game let alone play a second time.

[@DennisEngelhard]

My current MO is that I only summon for Godskin Duo and Gideon, because if Fromsoft doesn't put any effort into a boss, neither will I.

[@amwazdraws6890]

Same. I use them against Godskin Duo and the Gargoyles.

[@naruroGCS]

godskins are really not that hard, just kill 1 first and then the fight is a 1 vs 1. every time one is getting revived, kill the onther one(repeat). But ngl i still find the move sets and hitboxes anoying af

[@SandyCheeks1896]

If fromsoft doesn’t put any effort into a boss Virgin: Then neither will I ☝🏻🤓 😏 Chad: Then I will put in maximum effort and prove my superiority 🗿

[@minerman60101]

I love Gideon tbh*, each of his spells requite you do dodge them differently and it was one of the more unique fights in the game in my RL1 all bosses playthrough *I have never fought the version of Gideon who has access to the triple rings spell

[@zack_feldman]

I feel like monster hunter handles co op beautifully. The monsters are built for handling two players at least, and function decently with three and four. What would you think about in future fromsoft games, if they have bosses specific AI for when there are multiple players? Benefit? Unnecessary?

[@BotBoy-un3pz]

There's so many bad bosses in this game I usually use them in most dungeons just to get through them quicker, and hold back from summoning for the good bosses.

[@aaronapitius4775]

I think theres also an element of fun for the RP aspect of some Spirit Ashes, For example when Latenna asks to come with you. summoning her as your main summon can make it feel like she is really accompanying you to the haligtree. Or if your doing a Blaidd cosplay the wolf summons can compliment the RP of your build, Finlay can compliment a Malenia or Cleanrot knight build, or the Redmane soldiers compliment the Radahn build. Theres so many examples of certain ashes just feeling so immersive when played with a matching build or playstyle

[@vincentblack7032]

Hey man, i understand different levels of play. But having summons that can complete do a boss for you on your first play through cheapens the experience. People say twin bosses that gank you sucks and are some of the worse bosses. But then turn around and do the same thing with the mimic tear or tishe. Play how you wanna play and beat it with summons if you want but hiding in a corner while the mimic face makes every fight into the a gank session

[@kayhaich]

How exactly do you know in which specific context a player is using summons?

[@vincentblack7032]

@@kayhaich when did i say i did ? The “Summons that can solo a boss” argument doesn’t depend on context. And the boss gank comment refers to ppl who use those summons mentioned in the prior statement. If it doesn’t apply to you then it’s not you. I just think that it can be agreed that in a game where you are challenged to beat a certain challenge, that if you have an autonomous item that can play the game for you at a negligible cost that it cheapens the experience some. But again play how you wanna play

[@Planetside223]

I barely beat the game even with the ashes. And without them, I would’ve 100% had to look up guides and spoiled myself. I thought that’s what Miyazaki intended with his quote and adding an optional way to help when the game gets really tough. And I thought that what the co-op aspect was to. Both are really only supposed to be used when you run up against a wall so tough that it’s either look up guides or quit.

[@Dr_Donald_Duck]

Elden Ring has bad single player balance. OP weapons. Bosses with low stagger thresholds who are easily kited. Ashes of War that give 200-800 poise with 300+ motion values. Items that trivialise encounters. And buff mechanics where you can reach ng+7 damage during the mid game of ng. Elden Ring's main challenge lies in acquiring the knowledge of how its system work.

[@ilias-4252]

Very well said. That's also the reason looking up guides is a form of cheating, even if a good number of the playerbase doesn't view it that way.

[@kayhaich]

Elden ring is a game with features designed by fromsoft. Do you think a game with such an advanced understanding of how little things can be interpreted into bigger ones wouldn't have intentionally designed a game like this for a broader audience after putting so much effort into it? Like just maybe they want it accessible to casuals without putting in an easy mode? Just stop. Stop gatekeeping. It's painful.

[@Smaxy_]

Its already very hard to avoid cheesing the game unintentionally so adding summons on top doesn't help. In my first playthrough despite avoiding all obvious cheese tactics (summons, magic, block etc) I used a cheese build by accident (ps great weapon jump attack spam) and I'll never get my first experience back sadly...

[@kayhaich]

@@Smaxy_ Sad story. Not really the experience of most players across the spectrum, for whom the game was designed for as a base average. Maybe next time use a steering wheel controller blindfolded or aim to do a level 1 no-hit run blind, maybe just congratulate yourself on what an exceptionally skilled gamer you are.

[@Smaxy_]

@@kayhaich its not about being a skilled gamer or whatever its about having a great experience. You only have one first playthrough. One.

[@chainclaw07]

14:40 - however with the limited amounts of npc summons in earlier installments the devs told the NPCs story through where they appear whilst spirits just can be used anywhere or at least any boss...

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

I think some level on "toxicity" about Summons is good. I feel like too many players in Elden Ring think that they aren't capable of beating it solo, and resort to summons without truly giving themselves a chance to get better and learn a boss. My first playthrough in DS3 I knew about the stigma of summoning phantoms, so I didn't touch it, I didn't want to be a bitch. Is that a toxic mindset? Sure. But did it drastically raise my enjoyment of the game and series? Without a doubt. Its like you said in a video before ER came out. In our moments of weakness, whether it be getting stuck on a hard boss, or level, we are likely to choose the path of least resistance. But if we put some sort of barrier to that easy path (stigma), we are more likely to keep pushing forward and we get to dance with the boss. Most people who use Summons are only robbing themselves of an amazing experience.

[@Tyanus2]

Yeah that was my experience, I was surprised after I finished my unspoiled game by how many people said that Maliketh was hard meanwhile I just nuked him with my sorcery while my mimic tear was aggroing it. I wanted to do another play through with pyro and no summons but pyro spells are late game and I didn't have another 250h to play it again xD

[@sinsofthelastdawn8942]

(This doesn't mention any dlc spirit ashes) It's important to preface that you dont _have_ to use the most powerful spirit ashes if you don't want to have them essentially take credit for the fight. There's a reason there are 3 different tiers of spirit ashes, the ones at tier 3 obviously being the best. Tier 1 is your helpful, but not entirely reliable category of summons, though I suppose there are a few that make an exception. This includes the Putrid Corpse ashes, which fulfill only the intent of drawing attention and having a lot of health per individual summon. Then you have the Fanged Imp ashes, which do good blood loss buildup, deal magic damage with their pots, and are decently agile, but they suffer from being easy to kill by not having an ton of health and are also easy to stagger. In other words, Tier 1 is meant to fill in a niche, something that adds some level of a very specific kind of support. Tier 2 is a mixed bag, some being little better than Tier 1, while others teeter towards something alike the ability of Tier 3. The Avionette Soldier ashes are an example of one that is more like Tier 1, as they are essentially an alternate version of the Fanged Imps. They move around a lot more, deal fire damage instead of magic, and have better range. However, their movement greatly depends on their attacks, rather than their evasiveness, and have the downside of malfunctioning upon being hit at times. Same goes for the Marionette Soldier ashes, though these are better because of their ranged specialty. Also in Tier 2, you have the Crystalian and Leyndell Soldier ashes, which excell at defensive capabties while making good effort at using counter attacks as their sole method of offense. They are good, until their defense is broken, at which point they are minced meat. Good for trading aggro, but cannot consistently rely on their own power to save themselves, or you. You still play a magor role in how the fight goes, as it is almost entirely up to your strategic thinking as to how you decide to fight alongside these ashes that dictates how effectively the both of you synergize. This tier is what I recommend to those who want a noticable amount of assistance, but not so much that they don't feel as though they are the side character. Tier 3 is the utmost assistance, excelling at most roles they are given. For example, one of my favorites, Ancient Dragom Knight Kristoff, is amazing at pretty much everything but building up status effects or dodging, since he just isn't capable of any status effect buildup, and while he can evade, it's not nearly as effective as ashes like the Fanged Imps in Tier 1, or Black Knife Tiche in Tier 3. However, he as an absolute truckload of health, blocks attacks often, deals lightning damage, knocks enemies onto the ground, and generally comes in clutch for you when you need it. In my opinion, aside from a decked-out Mimic Tear, he is the best one in Tier 3. He's got all the range, the damage, the health and the defense you'll need for most of the game, save for a few bosses that simply focus on any one of these aspects more than he can, like Placidusax. Imo, Banished Knight Engvall is a good substitute for Kristoff if you don't have him yet, and Engvall is the best for accesibilty at Tier 3, as he lies in one of the first catacombs of the game and is a pretty reliable option until you have progressed far enough to obtain Kristoff. Even then, Engvall remains a good balance of evasiveness, health, and damage for most of the game. To finish off the point, we have ashes like Oleg and Tiche, which specialize in damage output. While Oleg does exceptional raw damage, and has lengthy attack strings, he never dodges out of the way and can easily get bullied in a corner if he doesn't out-damage his opponent. Tiche is somewhat similar, except her agility is the best out of any summon in the game, and she does most of her damage from her ranged Destined Death attack. Her health is good, but not great. Oleg has a little less than Engvall, but the difference between the two is still noticable. Finally, we have arguably the two best spirit ashes in the game for their sheer capabilities: Mimic Tear and Dung Eater. We all know what makes Mimic Tear good, and Dung Eater fills in the role of being _like_ Mimic Tear, but doesn't rely on your build and setup being good to play his part almost equally as well, at least before you start getting into high enough levels that your character suits most, of not all build setups. Thanks for reading this far, let me know your thoughts on the spirit ash mechanics and whether or not my input was valuable.