The state of Rotation

Submit Clips here: forms.gle/Gwxa...
Main Channel 👉 / mbtyugioh
VOD Channel 👉 / mbtvods
Twitch 👉 / mbtyugioh
Twitter 👉 / mbtyugioh
Patreon 👉 / mbtyugioh
Discord 👉 / discord
#Yugioh #MBT #Clips

[@cototo]

id love to see more of an evolution of the play? like week one decks, week two techs and so on, jumping into games without knowing what's being played is fun but it'd help build a narrative for decks

[@jonas13579-u]

I agree! Everytime i see a rotation original deck, i always think: what does it do? why would people use it instead of x deck?

[@seanh2785]

This is a great idea!

[@RocketCrafting]

Yeah honestly my issue with this rotation series is that i feel a disconnect with each format. When he announced the series I thought we were going to see the progression of it more. Would love it

[@munchrai6396]

I love this idea as a way to emphasize how much different a deck could play without all their support. Whether its simply a weaker shell or an entirely different playstyle like we've seen from cards like Beetrooper

[@haydenz0]

Like having what RJ did for JJ when talking about decks and techs in the format

[@dnafunnymoments2069]

I feel like there might have been less comments saying salads ruined the rotation format if not for the structure of the video. They are heavily implied to be a problem at the start of the video, creating an impression of the format being in a bad place, despite it just starting out.

[@laserwolf65]

I also want to point out that the video on Rotation as a "deadly sin" of card game design doesn't actually argue that games shouldn't have rotation. Its argument is more along the lines of "ask yourself why you want to introduce rotation, don't do it too early, and be careful about it." It points out that some games have had great success with it, while it has killed other games.

[@aidan8578]

it is aimed primarily at people making new tcgs, or people interested in the way that process works. a significant amount of it talks about things like “what happens to your invested paper players when their collection isnt legal anymore” or other concerns about keeping interest in a fledgling competitive scene. it has very limited relevance to an online only unofficial alternate format for a 25 year old game.

[@UncleJrueForTue]

That may be true but, it's much easier to win an argument by deciding what your opponent is arguing before entering the argument.

[@aidan8578]

@@UncleJrueForTue in this case the issue isnt that theyre mischaracterizing their opponent its that theyre mischaracterizing their own witness

[@UncleJrueForTue]

@@aidan8578 Except instead of simply stating the irrelevancy of the witness' argument from the commenter, just trashtalk the commenter for trying to involve a witness. If they have a problem with it they should have commented better. My thoughts on rotation format remain the same: - Give it some time - Introduce more playable, low powered archetypes - Allow for a bit of generic support to underpowered summoning mechanics(ritual, xyz) to justify investment cost If they do that, format should be fine and all these "bad" comments can shove it. It's not the end of the world if it suceeds or fails and the most important thing is to learn from any failures. I disagree with MBT on one front: Archetypes and Rotation Archetypes are very hardbaked into Yugioh, and formats that rotate they typically use generic support for players to elevate their deck's them/strategy. Yugioh clashes with that since support can comes out randomly for any archetype that's very much busted, but otherwise trapped in a more busted game.

[@Andy_ARBS]

@@UncleJrueForTue Ooooh he repeated what Joseph said! So brave.

[@Momo_pstat4]

Balancing a game is much harder than people realize. U’ve picked a really tough thing to do and have done a great job. Keep up the good work!

[@Akario3]

I just want to see MORE matches tbh. Because only seeing 3 or 5 matches doesn't paint a clear enough picture of what's going on in this format.

[@U1TR4F0RCE]

I think that one thing that doesn’t help for the situation of people complaining is that Salad like Skystriker or Invoked is a deck/engine that has been around for a while and was competitive for long enough that it can be annoying to see.

[@timelordomega5914]

I think whats tripping up commenters is the fact that the videos have been pushing salad into the main narrative since many people at the start were (imo rightly) worried about salad always being dominant and not allowing new strategies to rotate in and out of the format. Its easy to talk about the hyped deck of the format and highlight them, it creates an underdog narrative for salad’s opponents. Since the videos highlight salad, people talk about salad. Since so many people talk about salad, its more worthwhile to include salad in the videos… looping around itself to a frustrating degree. With salad taking yet another hit, it would be a good clickbait to include something salad related. I personally hope that isn’t the case, as I want these videos to talk about rotation exclusive strategies, such as the earth floater decks, Iris control, and Dino synchro, and how decks are affected by the upcoming rotation. Looking forward to seeing how it goes!

[@tanthientruong3820]

His videos make Salad look like Ishizu Tear

[@mozata6838]

I feel like comments are never gonna be good for this series cause the moment-to-moment drama in the videos boils down to who's winning, and the audience will continue to hyper-focus on that. If your stated goal is to introduce a more approachable version of the game, I think presenting the duels as teachable moments rather than pure tournament play would go long way towards that.

[@strangevol5264]

Yeah, and if the goal is to make the mechanics easier for new players to understand, why not have beginners be the duelists? A literal Junior Journey, if you will, where new players learn their decks and the mechanics with help from, like, a coach. I feel like that would add a layer of depth to the series, and give possibly more content, by talking about the participants’ journeys.

[@meathir4921]

If Rotation YGO was meant to be easier to get into, it fell flat on its face. Watching the tournament footage and seeing Beetrooper full combos… how is Rarran gonna understand how to do that? So that design goal is already out of the window.

[@geek593]

@@meathir4921 "Okay Beetrooper is an advanced choice. Maybe try Iris Control or Blue-Eyes instead." It's just like every other card game with a limited set of deck choices. I'm not going to recommend Runecraft or Forestcraft to someone trying to learn Shadowverse when there's Sword or Dragon sitting there with simple play lines and win conditions that reward fundamentals instead of knowing combos.

[@meathir4921]

@@geek593 Did we watch the same video? Most of the tournament had decks on complexity equivalent to at least 2015ish YGO.

[@jeffreytam7684]

@@meathir4921I would argue that "2015 ish YGO" actually means the design brief is more or less being met-MBT has said several times he doesn't want this to be goat or goat adjacent games where you set one and set 3 backrow. If the goal is to make *Current Yugioh* more approachable by taking modern cards and building a lower power environment for them, then that means seeing decks go through combos and relatively complex interactions should be expected.

[@achehex]

Kohdok catching strays cus other people misunderstand what the set rotation sin was :'c

[@Yusodus]

Ironic that MBT complains about people not understanding a video and then he says that lol

[@metelmanJames]

"but it's actually much easier to win an argument if you decide what your opponent is arguing, before you enter the argument" that's funny because that's what joseph literally just did a few minutes prior when he brought up world chalice as a potential link deck, claiming it was a boring combo pile that u-links. as if that wasn't something you could prevent by hand selecting the cards they're allowed to use, just like they've done with literally every other deck for rotation series. i hope salad wins again.

[@kindlingking]

Yeah, that moment was weird. And I'm pretty sure he played World Chalice in Duel Links and knows that at it's core the deck is just a midrange that bricks on vanillas.

[@aidanquiett668]

Not sure "I can just power creep it" is really a good defense for a format specifically meant to stop power creep. The "worst comments" honestly just feel straight out of the rotation discord, cause we've been saying this stuff there since day 1

[@solobugg5087]

How come MBT goes from talking about how, because of the ability to pick which cards are being released in the sets, they can decide the power-level of those decks (3:44), then goes to talking about how World-Chalice is a bullshit 9-minute combo deck (4:33)? If you have the capacity to designate the power level of decks and what cards are available, you can then design the playstyle of those decks to not be those long combos, especially when a deck like World Chalice probably was never meant to be "Mystical Shine Ball Turbo", no?

[@samedwards3186]

Not being able to make new cards is the biggest hindrance to a hypothetical rotation format to me, needing to work with the existing card pool to try and make some kind of coherent sets and power level is an insane task.

[@ciarangallaghercg]

I don't think it's an insane task, it's just a task that will take time. My knowledge in Yu-Gi-Oh is very poor and even I can somewhat identify the key cards that make certain strategies too powerful and complex for people to play with/against.

[@SeraSmiles]

Yugioh has a super long history that could allow for a lot of varied rotation sets & power levels. Putting the core set immediately into the link era power level wise is the real thing that limits how much you can do.

[@ciarangallaghercg]

@@SeraSmiles I assume maybe you're coming from an unknowing position but if you watch the original rotation video or this video to the end MBT explains that the idea of this is to have a deck that is playable from each different type of summoning mechanic so as to create a good base for players to understand. Basically Joseph wants rotation to be a good way to learn about modern Yu-Gi-Oh without having to understand the entire absolute madness that is modern Yu-Gi-Oh

[@SeraSmiles]

@@ciarangallaghercg Oh no, I fully understand what MBT's goal with the format is. I don't even disagree with his intention. It just lessens the amount of space he has to work with a lot.

[@aaronarceneaux1564]

@@SeraSmilesi mean if the best link was something like decode talker it wouldnt be bad

[@HavenKhaos]

So I would like to present a counter to Mr. Bee Tee's arguments about say... Salad over Code Talker 1. Code Talker is every summoning Mechanic Response: So is Salad, you know the answer? You don't include the ones you don't want focused on. 2. Code Talker is degenerate 9 minute+ combos Response: So is Salad you mitigate this by including the cards you want to 3. Salad teaches the Link mechanic with no weirdness Response: Salad's whole gimmick is resummoning its links to gain extra effects, a mechanic unique to Salad and you not giving a shit about it doesn't mean it's not highly unique to itself Response 2: Your decision to use Normal Pendulum, a deck that see's no play and completely killed the mechanic stone dead in rotation shows your focus is not on "The deck playing like the deck should." or even the deck being viable 4. Rotation introduces artificial limitations in power creep Response: That's flat out incorrect, I have previously pointed out that not only do Pokemon and MTG, card games with rotation, still have absurd power creep even among its own formats, it also suffers from degenerate feature creep with the additions of keywords, out of game mechanics or "The brand new Pokemon type that's worth new prize cards that will now form the backbone of the meta and make the old meta look tame in comparison." You are simply wrong. 5. Salad's inclusion means in future sets you can shift it to a synchro deck for example Response: That is the same for Code Talker. 6. MTG players are fine with a single deck dominating every tournament. Response: When was the last time you paid attention to competitive Magic? Because... no that is not true at all. In fact the year I quit just stone dead "Fuck this game" MTG was because every deck you played against was the same bullshit and it dominated worlds that year and nobody was having fun. That is why the most popular forms of MTG consumption are DRAFT and COMMANDER. A limited format which is a different play environment each time and a casual format in which everyone is running vastly different singleton bullshit. 7. Any Pendulum archetype will be one set long with no generic support. Response: I understand you're trying to stop the Pendulum Pile happening, but you failed the imperative of "Teaching the mechanic to new players." Which was a failed goal from the start because the issue with Pendulums was never that people couldn't ever understand how they worked it's that they didn't care. Like Links are way easier but I saw way more people including myself drop off at MR4 just because "This new fangled mechanic makes my brain hurt hobble hobble old man." Even though Links are super easy Conclusion: You like Salad, so you chose Salad. You didn't like Code Talker, so you didn't choose Code Talker, you're too scared of the Pend Magician pile and the obsession with "Simple" Pendulum that you chose the absolute worse representation and essentially keep Pendulum isolated from the entire rest of the set. You appear to have been out of MTG for so long that you are disconnected with the actual feelings of that games player base.

[@geek593]

Salad has literally never been a 9 minute combo deck. But I agree with not adding what you think causes degeneracy. There are a lot of niche bad Code Talkers that can limit the end board. Also Pokémon hasn't power crept anywhere near as hard as Yugioh. That's total cope. Number inflation and multi prizes have happened to increase the pace of the game but effects and complexity haven't gotten significantly harder than late WotC era.

[@HavenKhaos]

​@@geek593 Power Creep and feature creep are two separate but related things. All card games need something new to get players to buy the new cards, those that dont die in a ditch because despite what MBT thinks no one actually buys MTG when then the MTG cards are weak or low power. The big one for me is always Ixalan. Ixalan was a low power set especially compared to what came before it and what came after it. And do you know what? It sold like shit. Players don't want to spend money on packs of a card game with the intention they aren't getting a new experience. It's what killed Moncolle back in the day, brief history lesson, Moncolle was one of Japan's premier TCG's it was basically the most popular if not second most next to Pokemon and is responsible for a lot of design even in Yugioh's manga like all the Duelist Kingdom weird field stuff? That's just Moncolle. Then rotation happened and it didn't innovate or give anything new to chase for the new cards... so it died immediately because it didn't innovate. Pokemon TCG when it did its rotation also saw a drop in sales for effectively the same reason, that being that the new cards in Advance weren't anything special. See this is why Pokemon always adds a new card type, Vmax, Gmax, Tag Teams. It's not the strength of the cards that's the important factor, it's that it's something new, something the old cards didn't do. Where cards can no longer have more power to make you chase, cards have to be new shiny gemstones to make you chase, and still need to be stronger. Companions, Energy, Adventures. All new mechanics designed to wow you to make you go "Damn these new cards don't do what old cards did." Now in limited? Not a big deal. In Legacy/Vintage/Modern, how many keywords do you have to remember? How many game state variables? The initiative, day/night, dungeons, the monarch, things that would be Master Rule changes in Yugioh are set-by-set additions in Magic. No the cards aren't as OP power crept as Yugioh, but the feature creep? Tell me a set that isn't adding a new keyword or 6. Anyway this is more to clarify what I meant there. I fully admit that while Salad can combo off, it is historically not a "9+ minute combo deck" in any way.

[@3417gekkou]

You're spittin bro hell yea

[@DuskoftheTwilight]

As far as the overall point goes, I think there's three basic statements to make: 1) the nature of Rotation is that the thesis of the format can't really be tested until we get to the first actual rotation set where non-core cards are out and we see what happens. 2) given the thesis you're stating here, I don't think the thesis is very well stated within the video itself. 3) I think people are clowning about Salads in part because it's the Link deck of the format, meaning it's the example of the game's most recent summoning mechanic, and seeing the link deck win over and over makes it feel like older decks or decks focusing on other mechanics don't have a chance, and given some of the theses a viewer could come to about what the point is, I can understand that being disappointing.

[@luminous3558]

I think the issue is just how bafflingly bad every other core set archetype is. Salad is one of the best link archetypes ever made and even its bad cards are pretty insane. DM is not a real deck even at full power, same with blue eyes. Normal Pend is just way too weak and would only fit if the core set didn't have archetypes at all and instead was purely toolbox. The ritual archetype needed to function with minimal support and shinobird just doesnt. Utopia is the other deck that isnt terrible and it would be fine if the rest were better.

[@flogos989]

@@luminous3558this shows that you have never played the format Utopia is garbage, it cant even actually do this thing it says it does consistently Blue eyes is the second best core set deck, it has a good salad MU and plays well into the top decks

[@victikirby15]

1:07 LOOK GARY THERE I AM! In terms of my comment specifically, I don’t think Salamangreat being in the format is a bad thing. I just think it’s funny seeing Joseph come to the same realization that the Duel Links devs came to: even without its powerful end board bosses from the TCG, Salad is just such a powerfully consistent engine with enough room for strong non-engine that it can easily dominate in a more limited format (although to Joseph’s credit, it’s not nearly as strong here as it was in DL)

[@jonniespectre2662]

As someone who also plays other card games, to me a core set is typically defined with a collection of low power but accessible tools to be the building blocks for expansion sets. While I understand that YGO is a game purposefully designed around archetypes, I think its important to take into consideration by what way these archetypes CAN exist. For example, Blue-Eyes as of right now is just Blue-Eyes. But if given the right tools, Blue-Eyes can become a part of a generic dragon deck or a rank-8 strategy. Earth Box is a fantastic representation of a limited format deck in my opinion. As an archetype, it is narrow enough to where you can't use just anything in the deck, but broad enough to include a strong selection of tools while also being available to new additions as cards come and go. Where things go wrong is with the inclusion of certain choices into the core set such as HERO and Subterror. There is a lot of discussion about Salamangreat but conceptually I think it is fine albeit with its own issues. The problem I have with Salamangreat is that the archetype doesn't provide any generic tools for other link strategies to really pull from. Also you can't argue that Sky Striker is a bad choice for the core link archetype because it breaks the rules of link summoning while Salamangreat Sanctuary is right there. Granted Sky Striker also should not represent the core link strategy for far worse reasons. Overall, I think that rotation has been a noble cause and a fun format, but given the lessons we've learned so far, I would very much be in support of making sweeping changes to the core set.

[@Shade_Daemon]

I think the best choice for a link deck would've been Orcust, splashable yet gets locked on its own plays, can realistically only make links, their cards care enough about positioning your arrows and they have no weird mechanics other link decks don't have(ofc we don't bring XYZ girsu here) and just let's u have a lot of synergies with other decks later on(livetwin would've been my second choice)

[@jonniespectre2662]

@@Shade_Daemon I disagree. I think that Orcust has a lot of the same problems that Salamangreat has in regards to being part of a core set. Many of it's cards need interaction with other "Orcust" cards and xenolocks you into darks. The only place where it is better than Salamangreat is that there is far superior support for dark monsters than fire monsters. Not to mention it is a far worse representation of a link deck. The power of the deck sits heavily with Dingirsu and the only in-archetype link monster you're making most of the time is Galatea. There is absolutely no world where Mermaid should be legal and without Phantom Knights or Raid Raptors, what are you really linking into? I don't think that looking at archetypes that were good in the TCG/OCG is the way to approach creating a new format. Again, I think the goals of a coreset should be to provide low-power but accessible tools where expansions can pull from. Personally, I believe the way to represent link summoning as a mechanic is to start with a pile of generic cyberse support. Think of cards like Lady Debug, Flame Bufferlo, and Cynet Mining. Historically, generic cyberse piles are not very good until you get into specific archetypes, but that is the point. You can start of by specifically curating a link climb strategy for the coreset. Give it enough tools to be able to end of something decent, but not too much to where they're u-linking. Then later, as archetypes such as Salamangreat, Code Talkers, @ignister, and Mathmech come and go, they have tools that they can pull from.

[@r3zaful]

​@@jonniespectre2662you see There's a thing called legend anthology format in md, use it as the basic of rotational format, even amazoness suddenly become decent in that format.

[@haydenz0]

HERO I like in the core set because each rotation block can make different versions of HERO (including ones that have never existed before), but I think the core set needs more decks in general. Why is HERO the only fusion based deck? If there's 2 DM nostalgia bait decks, I say there should be 2 decks per summoning mechanic. And instead of just picking anime protagonist decks, decks that actually represent what would be good for a rotation block can be picked (or at least share the spotlight). I understand this would be difficult with Ritual and Pendulum, but those are really hurting and need help.

[@haydenz0]

@@jonniespectre2662 I agree with that sentiment about Cyberse, though I would include the Code Talker support cards (except Codec). This would allow Code Talker to be a strategy (without the u link as Codec is banned). And since Code Talkers are rather generic, they support any future Cyberse link decks. Salad isn't a bad second pick. I'd personally like the core set to have 2 decks of each mechanic.

[@nassuman]

Kohdok's 7 Deadly Sins vid is pretty bad to use as an argument against rotation in Yugioh's case because the Sins he mentions are specifically for games that have too limited a card pool. Yugioh does NOT have that problem at all.

[@DuskoftheTwilight]

I was thinking that Marincess could have been an alternative link deck for the core set that demonstrates how link summoning works with a simple line of in-archetype link climbing, but then there was the comment about wanting an archetype with lots of cards to work with and that can theoretically play in different ways and...yea, Marincess doesn't really fit that bill 😅

[@DoctorOaks]

I had considered if Crawlers wouldn't be a bad archetype for the link mechanic. I think that it could work going into the next full rotation. I think that the other decks in this rotation's core set are a power level above it. So if the power of the next fill rotation starts slightly lower, then I do think that Crawlers could be good. It also fits in with the idea of mixing them together, like B-Trooper + Crawlers

[@IC-23]

I think it should have been world legacy, you're working with Vanilla monsters so even though they're spamming monsters you can focus on what they link into instead of the 5 vanilla monsters on firld. the deck is lower power level and doesn't inherently cheat the link mechanic...

[@haydenz0]

Marincess is too restrictive but also has either 1 card combos or completely useless cards. It lacks "mid power" cards that Rotation is trying to base itself on, on top of its restrictiveness.

[@SloopYGO]

its really hard to make your own format, but i think mbt has done a pretty good job. i think some people just expected it to be flawless and the perfect way to play yugioh which is just not realistic, especially when were what 2 sets in?

[@Sniperfuchs]

I feel like 50% of these complaints are literally "This Yugituber who doesn't have a couple dozen paid game designers at his disposal (like Konami would) didn't design the perfect rotation format 2 set in, so it is clearly a terrible idea". I get the arguments against rotation, but that shit is just embarrassing cause there is no coherent thought besides "rotation bad" in those comments.

[@robertbauerle5592]

The format is also infinitely more healthy than modern yugioh. Like yea salad is the best deck, but its so far from being oppressive, and the way it and other decks interact is so much more healthy. There's no gatekeeping hand traps like ash blossom and maxx C, there's no auto-win board breakers like evenly matched or duster legal that also gatekeep decks out of the format. This is everything I want for a yugioh format.

[@geek593]

I think the idea that it's supposed to be flawless is absurd. But for what it it's trying to do it's very, very, very good.

[@haydenz0]

​@@Sniperfuchs I think rotation doesn't work because the idea of a core set is confusing for a game like Yugioh where archetypes exist, and MBT's Rotation format shows this pretty well. Shinobird is getting its AGOV cards in the next set, but once this rotation block ends, Ritual becomes unplayable as the core set didn't provide a playable Ritual deck. It really calls into question what the purpose of a core set is, and if every Core Set decks are meant to be viable during every Rotation Block or not. I don't think there's a clear answer on that, which is why I feel the idea is poorly executed.

[@Sniperfuchs]

@@haydenz0 it has unique challenges in YGO but I really don't think it "doesn't work". The difficult part is definitely designing core sets because you want to leave enough room for those archetypes to grow while also making sure they are not the only ones played. They don't have to exist, but at the same time a core set is a concession to people who want a more predictable format. Even if something from the core set might not be meta all the time, at least it gives people a deck to come back to for longer, which I think is the intention. This also depends on what a core set is even supposed to be, because some card games always stick with a very basic core set that never changes, others change that one up too on rotation. You could even keep a core set for 2 rotations to give even more longevity to those people who would like that as aforementioned. Each of these options has very different up- and downsides. To be honest, I think the main issue of this current format is, as MBT says, that link summoning has so drastically changed this game that link archetypes (and maybe also pendulum) should be "visitors" that come in with sets and not with a core set just because of that. Yeah, that sucks for people who like links, but it might avoid bigger issues down the line. A ritual archetype instead would probably keep the balance a lot more stable. Although it's also fair to say that yes, Salamangreat has topped again, the format does seem diverse and Salamangreat does not seem to be anywhere near Tier 0 (although probably above the rest). This is already getting very long but I want to add 1 more thing: You say rituals will be irrelevant again once the Shinobird stuff rotates out again. I wanna push back on this a bit because 1) from my point of view there is no issue with leaving 1 summoning mechanic out for a rotation. 2) nothing stops MBT from including some of the same and/or some other ritual support down the line again. Yes, this puts into question "which of these can/should be in the core set" or "should a core set exist then", but I don't think this is proof that rotation doesn't work, which was your premise (although you might have also worded that a bit more strongly than you meant it).

[@haydenz0]

You cant say Code Talker is a bullshit 9 minute combo deck cause a few minutes ago you said "we can choose what cards are available in the format". You could just not give them Cynet Codec, forcing them to play lower to the ground. I still think Salad is a better choice, but you gotta remember your own logic.

[@Yusodus]

i like mbt but 15:35 lil bro didn't even watch the video and makes a generalized statement about it which completely misses the point, so just like the commenters he hates :) ironic also 8:15 "but it's actually much easier to win an argument if you decide what your opponent is arguing before you enter the argument" IRONY

[@SmugsfromSplit]

As some one who has been playing and running low power alt formats for several years now, I suggest Zefra for the Pend deck! The deck can operate on many different axises, and doesn’t really do anything unfairly You can even JUST have it be a deck that cooks with the field spell and providence, and the deck is still good enough Love the vids, keep it up broski

[@duncanclarke8752]

I would prefer Solfachord cause it has enough inside its own archetype that it could exist as a control deck with its resource recursion and unique interactions.

[@XKrules]

I'm definitely in the camp that Salamangreat was a mistake even still, but I think if Salad had started at a lower power floor with more room to bring in salad support in the rotating sets I'd have had less of an issue with it. And I do really need to disagree with "code talker is just a balls to the walls combo archetype and every summoning type." Those things are true of modern code talkers, but in a limited environment where you get to choose the included cards, there are SO many options for Cyberse as an archetype that you can limit it into something that you'd be able to bring in something like Salad or Marincess in a rotating set. I've had a lot of fun messing around with lower powered versions of Cyberse decks, and I think it isn't fair to the Cyberse card pool to just assume that because the modern deck is one thing, it can't be something else in a limited environment. Tools like post-errata Firewall, Cyberse Accelerator, and Underclock Taker, things that actually care about their link arrows, would probably be better for teaching link summon as a mechanic than... Salad, who sits on a single link monster and will cheat link mechanics for additional effects, while barely every interacting with what actually makes link monsters unique: link arrows. Though I do understand that it would be significantly more work to hit the right balance when you're working with an "archetype" of effectively over 300 cards versus the 50-ish Salad cards, and while I can't see into the heads of your team for this, I'm fairly confident the way I'd approach building a rotating limited format is very different from the approach that's being done behind the scenes. Nothing's managed to really grab my interest about actually playing rotation itself beyond "oh, the 40 card goodstuff pile looks more fun than most of the other core set decks." And the first set didn't add any decks I was particularly excited to actually play. Also, it's worth mentioning, I think anyone trying to say a KZbinr's series experimenting with a rotating card pool proves or disproves the theoretical concept of Rotation as it would apply to Yu-Gi-Oh! commercially is full of shit because at the end of the day, it's entirely up to how Konami would actually execute a rotating format. What would change about set design and product releases is what would actually determine the success of introducing a rotating format. I don't think it'll ever happen, since it'd have to start with the OCG, but if it did I don't think I have enough faith in Konami to believe they'd succeed at making sets that would appease both the primary playerbase of eternal, and the secondary playerbase of the rotation, at least not without a lot of growing pains that investors could potentially see as too much of a risk. It's not a silver bullet, it's not an instant overnight solution to the game's current problems, it's an option that would have to be considered and executed carefully. I have a billion other thoughts on this but I can't get them nearly coherent enough to offer much more on a completely separate argument than where I started.

[@italianradio6148]

Wait, people watched 7 deadly sins and thought he was saying rotation was bad? He says in that video that rotation is nuanced. That's the point of the whole video...

[@U1TR4F0RCE]

Yeah, like Kohdok’s video was great but it very much was not Set Rotation is bad. It was set rotation as a default can kill new card games especially when the designer doesn’t think about it. The combo of the rotation ygo not being a game that is trying to sell cards and not rotating all of the cards at once makes it not as relevant. In some ways mbt is following the video unintentionally with using the rotation to have the rotating sets themed around the various anime incarnations.

[@MBTYuGiOh]

this video is recommended TO ME as a reason why rotation is bad

[@Yusodus]

Ironic isnt it, MBT complaining about commenters not understanding his video and then he himself a) complaining about the video and trashtalking the creator b) not watching the video and c) completely missing the point, but his echo chamber of a chat obviously wouldn't criticize him for that :) (tho some did call him out on it)

[@dimmusdongus6596]

It's also specifically in the context of a smaller, younger game and not the literal most popular card game

[@YukiKazami]

@@Yusodus I think it's a stretch to say he's actually trashtalking Kohdok, it's just an expression of frustration that people keep throwing that Deadly Sins video at him without actually, you know, paying attention to the video's lesson

[@zurajanaisephirothda3886]

To start with, this is not a "I hate a Salad" or "I hate Rotation" comment. Personally, I would have preferred a version of Marincess over Salad but without Crystal Heart and Wave, to turn it into a big bungus staple trap control deck. Marincess does combo and link summon a lot just like Salad but the mechanic of equipping Links as equip-cards compared to reincarnate Link Summon is in my opinion easier to pick up from a new player perspective.

[@Stalutes64]

Part of me wishes the core set was just staples that defined the baseline power level of the format and then each set could be groups of various archetypes and standalone cards that work well with the given or counter the given archetypes in the set.

[@VerdantMushroom]

In defense of Kohdok, the guy who made that seven deadly sins of TCGs rotation video, he was more criticizing games that did it too early in their lifespan and killed off their playerbase, and does mention various upsides of having rotation. The most prominent downside mentioned in that video is loss of value in player collections, which isn't relevant playing on simulators.

[@snes90]

I'll admit that I forgot the point of this was to entice new players. When the series is partially pitched as "fixing a problem in YGO" I think we all think of power creep, _which conversely_ often translates into a stagnate meta where one or two decks win everything. No, it's not accurate to your goals, but I understand the leap in logic.

[@MrGshinobi]

I like the idea of rotation but i think MBT is not supporting the format enough for it to develop properly, what i would have liked to see is WEEKLY tournaments with better prizing and a faster release schedule for new sets (im not asking for big core sets every week, instead they could add small aditions to spice up the cardpool every two weeks or so). And i also would have liked to see better videos on it, i don't want to see only ygopro replays, that gets boring fast, i want to see more indepth deck profiles or discussions about the format/the decks/cards that are in the format, i want to know the developers intent in adding specific cards and decks, if you expect the format to develop fully on it's own without developer support and just some ygopro replays to show for it the format will not survive for much longer. All of that being said i also understand why the format has been put on the back burner for mbt, i get that he's sick and prioritizing his own health is always the right thing to do, so i don't want to come off as overly demanding and rude when i do get why things have turned out the way they have.

[@hyperlink6547]

the only issue with such fast card releases is that a format needs *some* time to settle. If you release new cards twice a month, nobody has time to brew, test, and decide on what new cards are actually useful. Additionally, if this were any other card game and you had to pay for these new cards and new releases, then it would lead to wallet fatigue (a real thing) and that would kill the game in the long run. Slower, larger releases has been the norm for a reason, it gives people time to use their new cards and learn what is or isnt good, and lets people who arent necessarily competitive still have incentive to buy products (If yugioh had 20 dollar box sets every 2 weeks along with their current system, nobody aside from hardcore fans would be buying anything) So while rotation isnt a paid format, i think sticking to the same idea of slower larger set releases helps to reduce as many variables in this experiment as possible.

[@trexdrew]

The reason people are saying “this proves rotation isn’t the end all solution” is because you’re still having to basically make a banlist. Instead of just fixing it with a list you’re altering the core set’s list. By doing that though you just have the same thing just with different steps as we do in the main format. I do appreciate what you’re trying to do though, but it does seem like it’s time to say “hey this is in fact pretty similar to just having a list”.

[@luminous3558]

To add to this and to preempt the "but he is just one guy and there isnt a team of designers with him" he A does have a few people who help him curate the pool and B even MtG has moments where they are forced to ban stuff most recently the rotation with oko, field of the dead, Uro, companion etc. Having a banlist is much more important to balance the game than rotation.

[@trexdrew]

@@luminous3558 it kind of feels like a list is inevitable no matter what right? Because if you keep changing the core set and don’t lock it in forever it seems really precarious like the TCG on the eve of one. Everything is always up in the air and you never know what decks is going to stay legal.

[@AlphaSquadZero]

I am going to be real here, the replays are about as decipherable (the game play, not the layout) as most tcg replays. Lots of cards moving, sometimes they are able to get to the blowout bosses sometimes they don't make much of a board and I couldn't tell you if they misplayed or not.

[@TheLordMagmar]

Salad is also a long combo heavy link deck, you could have made exactly the same decisions for any link archetype as you did for Salad, probably easier than Salad since Salad's whole thing is it's weird double-summon combo plays. Which aren't particularly standard for links in the first place. Edit: MtG also shows that rotation doesn't actually do anything about powercreep/mechanic creep. It slows it down a little, but it doesn't stop it. The only thing that stops it is conscientious design work against it. Which rotation doesn't do. People are frustrated with the whole logic because they don't necessarily care about the complexity, they do care about their being a top deck which is an issue a lot of existing yugioh players have with modern yugioh. Diverse formats are cool, but Salad being the top deck every time makes it look less diverse visibly no matter what argument you make. Editx2: I would say that Rotation can work, you've got some interesting ideas. I think the issue is that Salad is a huge lightning rod, and your double-sided treatment of it compared to other decks feels weird. You want Salad to flex into other summoning types but other link decks doing that is a problem. Pendulum in this very video you say can't have any crossover/generic support but other decks are allowed that.

[@somewhatomega]

Late to the party but: rotation feels like a concept that was labbed out and tested exclusively on Discord, and all the audience saw was a curated snapshot of weeks, if not months, of community effort -- without any greater analysis about the health of the format, how decks were being played, and so on. MBT essentially structured the entire series as an exhibition without analysis. Perhaps the perception of Salamangreats wouldn't have been what it was were more effort put into *showing* that it wasn't this dominant archetype crowding out every other. You can show a pie graph of the top cut, you can continue to harp on how "Salads aren't nearly the problem people say they are," but without providing a proper window into the community for the viewing public, you're not saying anything of substance. You're essentially saying, "Well, you all would know better if you were active in the discord/in my rotation development team/knew what our intentions for the format and current sets were," and he was right -- but the audience isn't your testing community. Even if he had been on the ball and more involved in this project, there were serious presentational flaws from the jump that MBT never improved upon, and seemed to ignore any criticisms of.

[@MadRubicante]

Something I'd like to see is more in-depth discussion of how the various decks work, and more importantly, the principles of what a deck needs to *do* in Rotation format. Also live commentary of the tournaments, like MCS/Chalislime!

[@chrisjones6792]

Back in the day MTG had a format that was considered at the time to be miserable because one deck was like 2/3 of players in every tournament and didn't have any bad matchups. (I'm talking about og Jund) In the years since, with the benefit of hindsight, that deck and that format have been rehabilitated a bit. Thing was, the deck didn't have bad matchups, but also didn't have a lot of one sided matchups. We're talking consistent 55-60% win rates, so even though you were probably going to lose, you were almost always still playing a game of Magic. It was also dirt cheep; the best cards in the deck were uncommon, and that ruled. A lot of people got bored of the mirror and bailed on the game entirely for a while (and participation in events did bottom out and worry people at the time) but because the best deck was cheep, a lot of new players were able to pick the game up and get a taste of competition. Then the next format was dominated by a much more OP deck that cost approximately 11 million dollars (Cawblade) that, while you could build a deck to counter it, won against most decks upwards of 66% of the time. What I'm saying is, formats are nuanced. You're tackling something big, and you're doing a good job. Don't listen to bad comments.

[@dimmusdongus6596]

Personally I got burned by LoR's disastrous rotation which was presented as something that would diversify the format. MBT's is a lot more honest with its goals and didn't delete an entire format from the game so it's Good

[@luminous3558]

It would delete an entire format if it was official and the mostly supported format with eternal getting at most a 3rd of the tournaments it gets right now.

[@francescolofaro8258]

Legends of Runeterra Is a joke.

[@patchworkgolem]

@@luminous3558 Or it would be like MTG, where the company can count past 1 when it comes to formats and supports multiple ways to engage with their card game.

[@geek593]

@@luminous3558 You can support multiple formats with the same card pool chopped up in different ways. Most games have unlimited formats and limited formats, whether it be draft or rotation. If a format is supported and given a push people will play it. See: Edison, Goat, Speed Duels, Master Duel, and Duel Links. If a standard rotating format became the premier format of YCSes and regionals you bet your ass people would hop right over. If people can show up to play in 2018 Gumblar format they'll play anything.

[@kindlingking]

​@@patchworkgolemWizards are not a good example of a company properly supporting multiple formats at the same time.

[@geiseric222]

Wait this whole thing was about making the game more approachable? That’s extremely funny in how that didn’t work

[@bluedemontr-whisperofwind-2296]

Oh c'mon kohdok isn't a nobody

[@lordquaz7154]

The one thing a lot of people are doing with the 7 deadly sins by Kohdok is that they are purposefully misquoting it. Set rotation is only a "sin" when it is badly implemented or is used as a right of passage. It's not a takedown of rotation as a whole but more so a criticism of how some modern games use it. I do recommend you give the series a look, it's pretty solid over all.

[@reisen4963]

You did not just say mtg players dont think a format is bad if the same deck wins over and over

[@UncleJrueForTue]

"Can cards not be good?" is a classic argument for any card that has been banned from standard, modern, commander, pioneer, etc.

[@jefftigers103]

Not trying to minimize Joseph's points, I still believe in rotation, but I still think it's funny were still having the Tearlament argument.

[@thedilfs]

Honestly from the duels I watched salad was a great power level to compete with the other decks while not being too dominant. Oroshi seems like a bigger problem to me, being a big body that comes back over and over and also contests the opponents interaction before you make your plays

[@Tangerinian]

do you have any info on how many new players have been playing rotation? Part of the point of rotation is getting new players into the game, it would be valuable to see how succesful this format actually is at that

[@Neoboo297]

It's interesting, so many card game players consider a format a failure if the same deck can win multiple tournaments in a row. That diversity of a Top cut does not mater if the winner is the same winning deck from last time. I think your views on Tear was a great example of this rift in players. You enjoyed playing Tear, felt the mirror match was incredibly skill testing, and didn't care if the format had one clear best deck, because it was an enjoyable mirror match to play out. While other players who didn't enjoy, or couldn't afford Tear (which at least isn't a factor in a fan format like this) hated the format and felt it was a failure of Konami's that only one deck was winning the top of the top tournaments. It's the dichotomy of people who rate the success of a format on Fun vs Diversity. If I had to hazard a guess, I think the source of many of those comments are people who are frustrated that the official game format has been perceived to be dominated by only one top deck at a time for the last few sets, looking towards this custom format as an escape from that, then being frustrated when the perception presented in the tournament recap videos is that once again they have found a format where there is one best deck and every other deck might be able to put up a fight, but can't take the top spot.

[@Aaronrules380]

I think the diversity of the format is warped in the context of something like rotation series where it’s a small fan run thing with nothing at stake. If there was a large prize money than I’d bet a lot of people who had chosen other decks would have played salamangreat. You can see the same thing with tcg tournaments MBT has run which are significantly more diverse at top cut than regionals and YCSs

[@lokozlols2906]

I don't think salad was a bad pick at all but i don't think the reasoning behind not picking world chalice as it's a dumb combo deck makes any sense, you control the power of the format simply don't give it the tools to U-Link i'm not saying like of mbt is a dumb idiot because world chalice would be so much better of a pick or anything but i personally believe world chalice would be a great pick.I think world chalice would be a good pick because it's a lore archtype and i know some people don't enjoy lore or don't really care but also for new players and even some yugioh players that play today really enjoy lore the branded and world chalice lore are well liked and if someone came into the format with the knowledge of this i think it would feel cool for them to pick up the lore deck and say hey i know them!.I also think world chalice would be a good link deck as a pick because it does what links do it link climbs and i don't think it's an unfair link climb the tools given to world chalice itself is nothing impressive that deck has what legal in the tcg in archtype World Chalice being a once per turn extra deck bounce oh shit that's crazy i think if you gave world chalice link climbing tools in archtype and then maybe put like Fire Wall in (with errata of course i don't know if i even have to say that) but the deck could end on from 1-2 bounces and maybe an extra deck bounce which seems strong but that's like max endbored no disruption and all that.I'm not writing all this at all to be mean or say your choice in salad is bad i personally enjoy salad and i think it was at the very least top 3 picks but prob higher but i do think your thought process with world chalice was flawed by tcg brain i would enjoy to see world chalice added at some point because i do think the deck is fun and can be balanced.Thanks for listening to my ted talk

[@ctusiard9755]

Oh, that's mean to Kohdok.

[@jeffreytam7684]

Can't wait to see where the concept goes-I haven't been able to test/play much recently, but I'm a firm believer in this project and want to see it succeed, and regardless of the outcome, I'm excited to see it explored. I remember getting into an argument with someone when you first introduced the idea for Rotation, either in YT comments or on Twitter, and it really hammered home to me the idea that there are people so stubborn, malicious or catastrophically unimaginative that they will invariably shoot the idea down. *Ignore them* and do the best you can to build a format you think is good.

[@Npi13O7]

Question: For the link deck, why not Sunavalon, not like Plant link with all their stuff, but more like basic Sunavalon, the one at the beginning that ended on a link 4 with a trap card, and other cards...

[@codynelson7575]

There are some many better links decks to use, he just likes Salad, nd has to defend rotation because he realized that it doesn't really work but he already made the series

[@abdurachmanromzy4778]

Plant ptsd perharps? Although the board was too easy to be reset or maybe its already planned but being halt by release schedule Otherwise its just wumbo combo deck(like code talker),which actually not super interesting to watch

[@geek593]

Sunavalon is a xenophobic plant deck. If he ever wants to add "Plant" as a category maybe it would be something to think about.

[@MomirViggwilv]

"Code talker is every summoning mechanic" bro you can just not include the cards that fascilitate the other mechanics. You yourself said "wouldn't it be cool to make salad a synchro deck for some formats," well you can just do the same thing for code talker? One format put in Proxy F Magician and some of the fusions.

[@HellfireBowsa]

So, as the HERO player that made top 8 in the most recent tournament, I want to say a few things: 1: Yes my wins were blowouts. HERO is still really good at OTKing, especially with Stratos in this new set. It helps that I was on an extensive Iris package to help with bad matchups or if I ran into interaction. 2. As for the issue of a Link deck, I feel like MBT just forgot Sky Striker existed. A lot of the unfair stuff they did in the TCG was a result of non-engine that would not exist in rotation, they're relatively low to the ground ATK wise, and operate on a unique axis compared to the rest of the decks (being a burn deck will do that to ya). I can understand if he has the philosophy that a burn/mill focus isn't healthy for the game and that's why, it's just what I would have done. 3. I feel like the problem with Salad is that it's the archetype that can get away with playing the least amount of engine, giving room for techs and the few handtraps that we have access to.

[@HellfireBowsa]

Quick Edit: I meant to say Trickstar instead of Sky Striker for point 2. Wtf was my brain on?

[@codynelson7575]

I love that he says "its easier to win an argument if you decide what their arguing" Then assumes people are arguing "why is salamangreat good" and not "Putting Salad in the core set was a bad decision, because you've had to ban cards, change cards, and need massive power creep"

[@Ragnarok540]

I don't have any issue with rotation as a secondary format, in fact it would be very interesting since it would make a lot of pack filler cards playable. The thing is that is very hard to balance around links. Is kind of weird to me why is Almiraj in the format, sending Resonance lnsect from the field to the graveyard in the very first turn sounds exactly like what you don't want in this format.

[@BlindOracle00]

rotation formats are the perfect place to bring banned cards that are only broken cause of 10+ years of card design. glow up bulb would be great in a supplementary set and then you just rotate it out if you want link 1's in the next set. but by having link 1's in the core set, good cards from 2010 like gub or level eater wont even be considered.

[@mangamanzx]

Honestly Joseph I'd like to point out that Salamangreat being the best deck is a problem specifically because it is a core set deck, because even if cards will rotate in that beats Salamangreat, those same cards will rotate out, Salamangreat will always be in the format. A core set of cards in a game with rotation is designed to be the baseline of the card game, the standard, safe staple cards that don't leave in the face of an ever changing cast of cards that come and go. It's why every game with rotation that has a core set fills the core set with generic good stuff cards that can go in a wide variety of decks but aren't the cards that make any one deck dominant. The fact that Salamangreat is the best deck before you rotate is very bad because the base power level of your format is "Salamangreat is the best deck" and that means as better decks rotate in and out the same deck always has the chance to return to being the best in any future format. Sure you can ban some cards to keep it manageable but if you hit Salamangreat too much then you lose the point of having Salamangreat in the core set in the first place. Honestly I'm not saying that rotation in itself is a mistake but how you have set up rotation with the core set being a collection of full decks that are strategies all on their own as opposed to generic playstyle enabling tech cards that players can fall back on as metas change between formats was a bad idea. PS: I'd suggest actually watching the video "seven deadly sins of trading card games: rotation" and you'll see that Kohdok actually does discuss the pros and cons of rotation and why and why not you should use rotation in your card game. Also for reference the full sin is "implementing Rotation before your second year"

[@Rairiky]

Just a few points: i know it's tough to balance pends but i still think solfa chords or abyss actors should be the generic pick,very xenophobic, not too strong but actually are designed to gain advantage by pend summon and beating over boards but,very important, actually have synergy with each other,bricking with the wrong monsters doesn't teach you anything Sounds crazy but I'd experiment with true draco as a way to teach tribute summon, at its core is a very cool,flexible deck Not sure why the hit but kohdok is excellent there is reason even pro designers ask for his advice,highly recc watching his rotation video not what you implied here This format is in many ways an analogue of duel links but there is a big difference:best of 1+ the order being decided for you completely changes deck building and what's playable, take into heart that fact when you seek imput from that game P.s. i said i wanted the coin flip cards! Supremely based choice to introduce desperado love it

[@dinkusoninkus]

I think a lot of the discourse comes from a misunderstanding of the premise, believing that if rotation exists it has to always be completely balanced. Also loved the insect decks, I enjoy the idea of worse or rogue level decks finding a place in a format that they normally wouldn’t.

[@Evil_Florida]

Tbf you did kinda signal to your audience that Salad keeps winning last battle and it did seem like there was some degree of frustration over it

[@Andy_ARBS]

Well you know, it is probably a combination of previous video comments and maybe some hidden comments from the discoed that really ran the narrative of this vid. Salad winning is probably the worst thing to happen for this vid because annoying comment andies have a stick they can poke with.

[@Evil_Florida]

@@Andy_ARBS I know, I just think it’s kinda a dick move to dab on your audience for something you were also doing. I like MBT but I think he was being a bit too childish towards the criticism

[@theermac6024]

My view on it is this: As much as Joseph does achieve his goal to make the game more comprehensive, it shows how volatile the concept of rotation is, specifically in yugioh. If Salads were as represented, or even more, BUT were not from the core set, then all is good. You don't like it, but you can wait until it gets rotated out. But because they are a fundamental part of the format itself, it's either a banlist, or the format is forever bad, until a new core set is released, which kills the hype. Yes, it is doable. No, I do not trust Konami to pull it off in a way it won't crash and burn immediately, due to 1 single over-centralizing deck in the core set.

[@dingding12321]

I think Salamangreat is just overpowered for this format haha. Other decks are cool, but Salamangreat cards are just over the top here. I wouldn't mind seeing it entirely replaced with something else.

[@IamMullet]

Needlessly rude shitting on Kohdok like that especially when he's not even against rotation!

[@aldinlewis5579]

I will say one thing that I think the format succeeds at, it is very easy to follow. I’d be curious to see how people less experienced in yugioh would view it but at least for myself I was very surprised at how easy it was to follow what was happening. My only criticism is that I’m worried that the format is just overall at too high of a power level. Admittedly based on what the design goals for the format are (trying to make links a dedicated part of the format) it might be at the perfect power level for that goal but as a personal taste thing I can’t imagine a good volume of cards being able to keep up with a card like gizmek orochi (don’t get me wrong it’s a very cool card, it’s just also a very generically powerful card). Overall I’m very excited for the format and I really think regardless of execution it is the best way to try and approach the issues that yugioh has at the moment. I can’t wait to see what’s in store for the future sets.

[@dionysiosbbbb]

I think this series is cool. I've never been more excited to see Earth insect/beetrooper work so well!

[@the_real_rush]

the only real issue i have with the rotation videos is that id like to know a bit more about the decks. i dont follow the format outside the videos on your channel, so a better idea of what decks are doing and how the format has developed would be really beneficial imo

[@Kat-dn5um]

you bringing up duel links set design made me realize that DL really should have used set rotation

[@metalmariomega]

My favorite thing about Links are how they're both less AND more complicated than any other mechanic. The summoning conditions are all specific to each card, so you have to keep track of every single relevant one that can threaten to be made by a board, specifically because all you need to do is have the cards face-up on the field in order to get to your Extra Deck picks. There's also the positioning game to take into account, you can have all the materials you need on field, but if the Link arrows or MZM positions are off, you're going to have to Link off something you didn't originally intend to. Both of these are also the reason something like Sky Striker doesn't work as a Link representative for this format. On top of cheating the Link rules by having both a Main Deck monster AND a Quick Play Spell that turbo out Links, cards like Zeke and Widow Anchor screw with positioning to make it frustrating for other Link players to make boards. Not to mention how the deck's main way of Link climbing to boss monsters tends to be stealing other peoples' Link monsters, rather than an inherent climbing process of its own(which CAN be done but requires too many specific cards to do before Engage pluses get to what's needed about 2-3 turns into a game, at which point the deck's already close to winning if it can ward off an OTK). And for balance reasons I doubt either Engage or Linkage would be included in the deck's initial release into Rotation unless it could be justified by a release timing alongside other decks that equate or eclipse at least Salamangreat in power, which hasn't happened as of yet.

[@AlchemicalLove]

I think Gouki would be a pretty fun link representation or maybe vandread? not sure if there is enough there to make it work but they are fun lower powered archetypes, that all said Salad is fine too.

[@geek593]

People would have rioted had Gouki been the rep but I think it's the right choice. Don't print Isolde or Powerload Ogre and the deck does exactly what the link mechanic wants to while being a battle phase focused Warrior deck, something that's missing from the core set. And if not in the core set it should absolutely be considered as a link addition later.

[@bagorngo]

Vendread is closer to ritual, methinks.

[@AlchemicalLove]

@bagorngo it can go either way but that's totally fair to think it ritual with lino spice

I think the comments focused so much on Salad performance was because it was presented at the start of the video as the "problem" and the whole narrative in your video itself was around Salad. So there should be no surprise what commenters focused on, you control the narrative.

[@otterfire4712]

as unlikely that MBT sees this, Symphonic Warriors would be a cool Pendulum archetype for rotation. Predominantly levels 3 and 4 with tuners, they have a decent range of options and their effects lets them play with the pendulum zone for it's plays.

[@Kaiyuni]

I would like to see Albaz (not branded, Albaz) be used in rotation. I think his super poly and card advantage gimmick is actually super cool and if you only use the earlier branded/albaz cards (pretty much the pre-branded fusion stuff), then suddenly the deck feels to be about the power level of this format. I'm talking about the ones that say "if you discarded this card because of albaz, add it back". Bouncing albaz on/off the board with end phase effects and eating your opponent's guys to make big cool dragons with bits of card advantage on the side is just neat to me. It's got an extra layer of interesting because before Branded fusion, branded opening, and the original lubellion, you didn't get fusion locked by albaz. So he could actually support other archetypes and set up cool synchro/xyz plays or what have you.

[@wolfgod6443]

I think the takeaway is that many people didn't want to see a link deck keep winning. I think a lot of the complaints about rotation have really just been using the format as a scapegoat for their bigger issues levied against modern Yugioh. I'm certain you'd see less complaints if BLEW was winning all the time, but BLEW and Salad are not the same. Salad has a modern record of victories across multiple formats, and represents the most recent summoning method. BLEW is a yugiboomer deck with cope support...And is the most popular and iconic archetype in all of Yugioh, so it kind of needs to be good because the average person is going to gravitate towards it before anything else. I think there are many people interested in the concept of rotation as a way to see new and exciting decks and strategies. Salad > BLEW is not new and exciting, that's normal and boring. I am in the camp that Salad cannot be removed, nor replaced. Links are a part of Yugioh's DNA and no deck strikes as good a balance as Salad does, and that just might make it worse. If Salad is the best option, but so many people hate it, does that mean links are simply terrible for the game's health? I don't think it's about rotation or Salad. I think it's about link summoning as a foundation of the game.

[@shadowgasher3708]

Rotation will fail in yugioh because of 2 main reasons 1. cards are not made equal, some cards/combos are just magnitudes better than others 2. artificially setting which group of cards can be used translates to you set the top deck. If you ban every deck stronger than salad then salad will be the top deck. Even if you rotate the cards your just forcefully switching out the top strategy. Rotation works for magic because: 1. they only have 5 card groups, for example almost every red card can be played in every red deck. 2. card power is relatively the same across the 5 colors. All colors have cards/strategies that read win the game. first gen blue eyes deck will never beat fist gen tearalaments deck but first gen red decks can sometimes beat current day black deck

[@CorpCoCEO]

I want to start by saying that I really like rotation both what has been releasing for it video-wise and just conceptually in general, and that I think you are succeeding in what you want to be doing with this series. I also think that guy who said the core set should be more generic (or at least less strongly archetypal) is right, *not* because the current format isn’t illustrating the point of the series but because I think expansion sets could produce more interesting stuff if the core set didn’t have archetypes that that the expansion sets had to fight *against* for viability instead of being able to enhance the cards in the core set and play around with them in interesting ways. It would still be proving your point, it would just be a bit more dynamic while doing that

[@geminimaxxim]

The most exciting part of this discussion, to me, is the possibility of custom cards to supplement the later formats. This might be a little specific, but I'd love to see them somehow craft a competent Spellcaster Synchro deck that makes use of things like the non-Pendulum Endymion cards, without just ending on generically powerful cards like Tempest and Arcanite.

[@Megawile345]

I think Qliphort without towers could be a good pendulum archetype. Qliphort Genius has good link arrows, and has an effect that teaches you to summon to link points. The main deck monsters effects are simple but in lower powered format can be very impactful.

[@misterghen287]

I've said this before but the only reason I don't think rotation works for yugioh is because the game it self is beyond redemption. I don't believe a smaller meta can be balanced so long as any deck can make powerful link monsters cause then it's just a contest of who makes links the easiest/fastest ergo salads performance, but as MBTs goal is too make the current game accessible for newer players he can't not include links. I truly applaud MBT for this undertaking and hopes he proves me wrong.

[@luminous3558]

Links aren't an issue. Nothing about salad is problematic because its a link deck, the deck is good because it grinds like a modern deck and old decks cannot keep up. Links are the easiest ED mechanic to learn as a new player.

[@patknack7368]

Looking forward to the new set to see what new decks come out from it. I do hope that since machines were confirmed that the set will be nature vs tech themed. Sylvan, Ritual-Beasts, and Simourgh vs Barrel Dragon, Wind Up, and Ancient Gears.

[@broelocklite3875]

i hope we can see more of the evolution of decks as sets come out and what people think is good at first and what people decide to play by the tournament

[@spicymemes7458]

Im convinced Joseph is just Kyle Gordon's Clark Kent

[@29azure33]

Rotation yugioh is the only reason i am back in a yugioh mood. My friends and i are slowly getting back into ygo because of it. We are still mainly Vanguard players. But the lower power level just makes it fun.

[@munchrai6396]

I think my biggest problem for most of this series is distinguishing these less powerful shells from their more powerful wholes. If the deck plays exactly the same but slightly worse then I don't feel I have any reason to play it, but if the playstyle is diversified, intentionally or unintentionally then there's a bit more potential. I like how Beetrooper was only given fusions to give the deck an entirely different identity, while still keeping many of the generic cards that would still make it interesting

[@doorto6152]

12:00 speaking of zombies, a benefit to rotation format is that you can include a fan favorite card like Zombie World in a set where tribute summoning is not competitively relevant. Where the zombie type shift is restrictive but not game winning.

[@helper19g75]

Honestly more formats would be great for Yugioh especially if other formats can be lowered powered while still releasing cards for that format. Like commander for magic something that changes up the format that also gets cards released for it specifically. Something that give archetypes that just never get any love some attention

[@Frogleeoh]

I think the general concept of rotation can definitely make for a good alternative format, but the execution of this particular iteration feels unsatisfactory. People will say "the rotation hasn't happened yet!" but that's kind of the point. Not only has the rotation not happened yet, it's not going to happen for quite a while as we are only on the first rotation set, yet the games are already displaying an alarming level of complexity. Forget Salads for a moment, just look at Beetrooper. Being able to consistently turn on Nibiru, and often even going much beyond that, is not exactly what I would consider a comfy base level of complexity.

[@dansantos9475]

I think this video is a really cool look at how nice it is to have developer feedback. I played since day 1 and I will admit to being an early critic about some design decisions. (Mainly roar and gizmek orochi) Hearing from MBT that his goal was primarily simplicity and not reducing power has been very nice and clarifies a lot of the decisions made. I was a little sad to not see code talker up to decode talker but if you compare how code talker and salamangeat cards work code talker can be much more obtuse on how it can be successful. I personally am looking forward to future sets and seeing what sets come next.

[@unknownberserker8464]

Maybe this is just personal bias but I think live twin would be a good link-sh deck to add, without the absurd amount of hand traps live twin doesn't have as nany interaction point outside of the links, maybe trouble sunny removal is pretty strong but without the target in deck it could be more balanced,

[@coreyyotto]

I think the problem with wanting an isolated "Link deck" in the core set, just because link summoning is such a powerful mechanic that permanently increased the power level in the game. There's no way to balance it if the "Link deck" is the only deck with access to the mechanic. I think it would have been better to have generic links and expand to have tribal link monsters

[@ChipoSkippy]

I'm prefaceing this with acknowledging I am not a competitive player at all. To me Rotation should make it to where a deck that tops or wins consistently in one set should never even get close upon the next sets release. Either by making everything that made the deck win illegal for the next round, or introducing archetypes and toolbox cards that make the former top decks obsolete. If you can make a consistently winning deck out of a stable core set and just adjust it with every new set release, I feel, that the idea of rotation becomes moote. Everyone should be starting from the ground up every time a new set is released. If I'm talking out of my ass or it's just not feasible for what I've said to be implemented then oh well, but I did want to at least make my take known.

[@danehagen4343]

Considering most of the format revolves around existing cards with known power levels, wouldn't a duel links styled ban list (Only one limit one, two limit two, etc.) Be a viable method of checking a deck's power level?

[@Iliaas]

I've always thought a banlist of this type would be a super viable method, kinda crazy that no way ever tried to do something like that, though I can see why.

[@awesomerdenu16888995]

I guess the only other link deck (I can think of at any rate) that MIGHT be more manageable than salad would be like live twins sans like trouble sunny? Though idk if having a resource loop around 21 1 card combos that make... 2 1100 beaters that can special each other for csrd advantage/pop effect i am honestly unsure if that is 2 good or bad in rotation considering ive only seen the vids on youtube

[@awesomerdenu16888995]

Like on the one hand one cards combos are probably a problem in thus type of format? On the other I don't think there's really any lvl 2 generic support in it rn and the 1 card combos are incredibly telegraphed/negotiable by like lost wind going first

[@InfernalEnby]

honestly, I've been really liking the rotation matches so far, they look like a lot of fun

[@ProBAgar]

Salad being in the core set isn’t the problem. archetypes in general being in the core set is. Why would i ever pick up the new decks when I know they’re toast in 1-2 years? I’m just going to play Salad or Blue Eyes. You power creep the engine? 1. You’ve already screwed up your advantage of not needing to power creep, 2. The decks that power crept salad will cycle out, so it’ll come back eventually OR you have to keep the format at a constant power level which keeps those decks weak, and 3. People will just use it as a side engine because buying the new cards just wouldn’t be worth it if you could. You should have ONLY put low-mid power staples in the core set. That’s what the core set is meant to be. The whole series is pointless on this one fact alone.

[@squidge477]

Links are so inherently insane I'd be interested in creating a "modern" format without them or with very toned down link monsters. I kinda liked how "combo" decks back in the day really had to be thinking about lines, infernity had to pop their owm cards to free up space because of how XYZ monsters are ballanced. With crazy links in the format the meta becomes "spam out guys" and any deck with great feild presence and no locks will make the same generic monsters. Rotation is very close to being that, but not all the way.

[@VooDooSaurus]

I'm a MASSIVE fan of rotation, really enjoyed the last video! Seeing other formats for yugioh, especially as myself whos mostly a Standard MTG and hearthstone player, i love the idea of rotation, as it really does keep things fresh

[@DarkKnight179]

The problem I see with rotation is that the thesis seems to misunderstand why cards get more complex? Its not because of power, or needing to compete with previous sets, weve had really complex old decks, and we still get really simple decks now. The reason is because we have pretty much made almost all the ways you can make a deck that is simple. If you want a new exciting deck, youll have to go for a more complex mechanic. And rotation just ... cant solve that? Unless you just print decks that arent interesting, youll still have the increase in complexity. Its why magic has had that same increase in complexity.

[@arjanzweers6542]

While I love the idea of a set rotation series, I can't say that it's executed well. Instead of having core archetypes, you should have core generics only. The biggest appeal of a set rotation is that it can allow archetypes that have never seen competitive play and allows formats that play widely different in terms of win conditions. By having core archetypes you run the risk of gatekeeping certain archetypes or decks, and as you might be noticing, it is a lot harder to properly balance entire archetypes in a format than it is to add or remove a single generic card. Well you are still early in Rotation so let's hope you are able to figure it out and make it work properly. I do understand the big gripe people have with Salamangreat. It is a 2019 meta deck, and there are options that would make a more balanced link deck. First ones that come to mind are World Chalice/World Legacy and Cyberse goodstuff. With Cyberse especially, you have a variety of options of how you want them to play, and are easier to balance as their cards are easier to replace. Then there's the issue that your archetype picks in general do not appear to be that well balanced to eachother. People see Salamangreat, one of the best link decks as the Link pick and then they see Draconia, one of the worst pendulum decks as the Pendulum pick. Seeing such a disparity makes people question your choices. I sure did. In the end the problem I see and what is probably generating a lot of the negative comments is that the power level you set for your core archetypes is simply too high and you should have aimed lower. With the cards you have picked for your core archetypes, they just see a nerfed version of modern Yugioh that can also be achieved with a big banlist. To convince people of set rotation, you would need to show them a Yugioh that plays completely different from modern Yugioh where you set up disruption to stop your opponent on their turn. Keep the disruption limited to traps only for a while and have go-first decks focus on building defensive boards instead, using cards like Utopia, Stardust Dragon or Decode Talker, monsters that interact with your opponent's board when they interact with yours. Don't have every deck be able to OTK on the follow-up turn but have decks play a grind game with a resource loop and out advantage the opponent as their win condition. Have beatdown be a viable strategy as well and not just go-second OTK. If you show them that and show that those decks can win, then I'm pretty sure you will be able to sway the opinions of a lot of people on set rotation, or at least silence the critics to a certain extend.

[@tumage8592]

I love how Josef really got Into CEO mode there

[@shuttlecrossing1433]

I will admit that as a Yugiboomer I agree with your take that "Yugioh is archetypes" but with a huge asterisk. Archetypes that function primarily by referencing each other by name shouldn't exist, but archetypes that reference each other by game mechanic are fucking awesome - Ghoti specifically wants to banish fish and use them to synchro and almost NONE of them actually use the word "Ghoti" in quotes to reference any card other than themselves. The latter allows me to use niche generic cards to cool effect, the former says I must include specific cards because the archetype engine says so and that sucks ass when trying to build a deck around a fun card with an otherwise interesting effect. My frustration is more that "Breaker the Magical Warrior.format" is more interesting because my opponent doesn't start with the exact same extra 15 cards in their starting hand every game. Companion in MtG was fucking awful and Yugioh is just that but a literal order of magnitude worse. If extra deck summoning was actually a big deal and that wasn't consistently doable in some form every duel, I'd like it a lot more, but Link monsters literally just ask you to put 2 bodies on the field and suddenly you can summon almost anything you want if you jump through enough hoops, Synchros give you way too many ways to put the exact levels you need on the board for a trivial amount of setup, and most XYZ monsters ask you to simply put two monsters of the same level out. It's not fun. At least early Synchros were complicated enough because arranging the exact levels wasn't easy and special summoning the exact ratios took several turns to set up. Also, side note, any format where trap cards aren't viable is ass. When a format exists in which trap cards are playable - but not necessarily because the traps are good, rather that the format isn't so powerful, fast, or spammy so that they aren't worthless - that's the best kind of Yugioh that exists as it tends to have the most interaction between players. By far what I like most about Rotation is that Wing Blast is viable. The goal should be for us to be seeing much, much more of that. I hope you read this, because I think you're onto something that appeals to even the most anti-modern-day-Yugioh player out there.

[@darkking4979]

I think your doing a good job it looks fun so far and I've been enjoying the episodes. Hopefully I'll be able to see the life points next time lol. Hope evil heros can make it in eventually love those

[@gavrail9568]

I’m not a blue eyes player but I will say there is at least variety of blue eyes decks but salad is some variant of heatleo sunlight wolf pass but i really don’t think having a deck be top for a full series is no different then normal yugioh saying rotations better is kinda a failed argument my fun with yugioh is having a bunch of different decks to play and being able to use both old and knew, Meta and rough vitiaty and interactivity makes things interesting hell this is coming from a guy who likes gusto, striker, runick, and sisters to name a few yea some of these are shit but at least there fun to play/watch

[@JohnBluemon]

I personally think that Links should have been used like Pendulums are in rotation. Like Joseph has said, they are hard to build around.