The Strikes Are Over: Is It a Good Time to Buy a Car? - AAH 670

[@kschleic9053]

@41:38 the position that the general public doesn't want EVs is flawed for a few key reasons, at least in being over simplistic. The Detroit automakers shot themselves in the foot big time by announcing their pivot to NACS before they were ready to supply vehicles with NACS ports or at least adapters. Every American consumer who is considering an EV (I'll come back to that number) is talking to an existing EV owner first, and there is an extremely high likelihood that they are talking to a Tesla owner... Those Tesla owners, even if they aren't pushing their friends to buy a Tesla (not everyone wants to be that guy) they are certainly advising their friends to get an EV with an NACS port. This has to be a big % of the flattening in EV demand for the big 3. Regarding consumer demand, it is my experience (EV owner in the mountain west) that every single person I've talked to on the subject is at least considering their next vehicle being an EV, assuming that an EV exists that meets their needs and is reasonably priced. In our area, the most commonly heard reason for having an EV isn't an environmental argument, but the idea of always leaving home with a full tank of gas! Around here is is quite common to live 30 miles from the nearest gas station, and it isn't unheard of to get to those stations and find out they aren't getting a fuel delivery until tomorrow😂

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

This. All of this.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

10000% AAH has to get panelists that are truly forward looking. They score a good guest every so often, then we get the classic car hour for a few episodes. Let's hear from real operations people, real engineers, real auto software people. Journalists aren't the doers, thinkers, creators or innovators...

[@thumper1747]

I’ve yet to experience that, but I’m looking forward to it as I’m going to buy a secondhand 42kwh BMW i3 for 50% of its original value. I’ve acquired 17 BMWs over 45 years of driving this way; depreciation can be your friend. I’m also looking forward to the occasional road trip and planning a couple stops while optimising my miles per kWh performance.

[@thumper1747]

Seems to me that many of us found this difficult to listen to, unlike reading the comments! Positive, critically thought-through observations and sensible counter arguments everywhere to be seen.

[@davidlemieux615]

I wonder if Doron, and others, listen to Tesla quarterlies? If they did, they’d know that Tesla is working hard to have a GigaFactory on each continent and sourcing these factories with raw materials from these continents… so someone is actually already thinking of this.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

😂 doubtful. They probably only read the stuff the other trade rags write. Getting everything 2nd and 3rd hand, and quoting JD Powers BS.

[@zacharyeversole]

Tesla is eating the auto industry’s lunch. Tesla makes a healthy profit even after all of their recent price drops. As people get to experience and understand electric vehicles, they won’t want anything else. It’s like going from a flip phone to a smart phone. Sure you might’ve been pissed that your first iPhone didn’t get a weeklong battery life like your Nokia brick. You still wouldn’t go back.

[@kevtheobald]

Hmm, best selling vehicle on the plant is the Model Y for 2023. Tesla sales slowed when upgrades became a known thing for Model 3. I believe in 2024 Model Y and 3 will keep high volume sales going. When Model Y gets upgrades, which some have already been added in China, the Y sales will slow as the retooling happens, but then it will keep going. Recent survey of 5000 Model 3 owners after years of ownership were very happy. Many would buy or did buy another Tesla. Provide consumers with a great product, they will buy. Mach-E was okay. Bolt is lower cost, but only okay. Model Y is not the cheapest, yet it is the best selling, even better than ICE models.

[@thumper1747]

Agree. If the Legacy OEMs wanted to compete on product quality, price and charging infrastructure, they should have formed start ups, invested in charging infrastructure and build ground up EVs and let the market determine the outcome.

[@CBBC435]

Believable to me if I saw more of them on the roads. I find it hard to believe that EVs are outselling ICEs. If everyone on the planet drove an EV the Earth would become a moonscape. Charging an EV at home is equal to running 10 refrigerators. There are no cost savings at charging stations over ICE pumps. I'm not sure why folks are eager to sit and sit waiting for charging, and fast charging reduces the life of the batteries.

[@sergiomessina2037]

Interesting to note that Brian said that the OEM's are going to tap the brakes on electrification. That's going to give Tesla and other foreign OEM's greater market share. I used to root for the big three because they were the home team, but after being bailed out and still failing to provide a compelling product for the changing market is a dealbreaker for me. Keep putting your heads in the sand and watch the change occur and wonder what happened. Imagine if there wasn't a 25% tariff on Chinese EVs, it would be 1973 all over again with the Japanese overtaking the American market.

[@Aegisx5]

They sadly wouldn't stand a chance. The US automakers got complacent and were making boring, inferior productd before the last bailout too. Nothings changed.

[@stargazer3828]

In response to Doron at 44:20 China is working on electric powered shipping vessels. They just launched the first of two 700 TEU pure electric powered containerships. Each of the ships will be powered by two 900 kW main propulsion motors. So again China is way ahead of the US when it comes to electrification on a commercial shipping vessel.

[@davidmccarthy6061]

Most countries are way ahead of the US when it comes to most infrastructure too. Probably comes from changing from a industrial economy to consumerism.

[@jmbickham]

More like cut taxes and cut budgets that were being used to pay (instead of debt finance) infrastructure projects and then cease to drive competition by allowing or supporting market consolidations (M&A)…

[@BTC_Minarchist]

Doron's comment was nonsensical. These transport ships will be carrying a full load regardless of whether they are EVs or ICE. 🤦🤦 I miss John when he's away. That's the type of comment he would call out, in his super polite way. 😉

[@sergiomessina2037]

I guess when ICE vehicles are being shipped in these vessels, they don't pollute as much as when they're full of EVs.

[@danielstapler4315]

Cleaner fuel for ships would be good. That 50 million cars for a cargo ship isn't CO2 it's non CO2 toxic pollutants.

[@davidlemieux615]

As to Nancy’s answer re Dealers and BEVs. Can it be that dealers make most money on 1) used cars, 2) service, lastly 3) new cars. The best selling car in the world is a BEV. The model Y is one of the best selling cars in the US. And yes, a Tesla owner knows he/she can rely on a great charging and ever expanding network.

[@mickeymcintire7621]

This panel was rough to take

[@cesartrujillo4190]

There goes thousands of dollars in evaporation???? It’s always astonishing to me that every time I see an ICE vehicle drive by, you are watching gallons of gas just entering the atmosphere going right into my lungs and my kids lungs. We clearly have a better way.

[@thumper1747]

As a voice that’s been shouted down by ignorant people for ten years (I had a eureka moment in 2013) I’ve noticed that as time goes by the big noisy people and their red herring arguments fall away as they begins to realise the benefits and inevitability of electrification. Clean air, efficiency and quiet. It’s all going to happen 😊

[@cesartrujillo4190]

Hi Nancy. EVs charge over night when there is excess energy. Texas clearly doesn’t care about clean air yet. As their cities get even bigger and they see more smog, they will care. Energy is getting cleaner and more reliable with renewables and grid storage.

[@thumper1747]

Reckon the close proximity of a man called Musk and his factory will change that. America should be generating its own electricity using wind and solar, surely it must be windy in addition to sunny in Texas?

[@melodyof]

You mean the grid can't handle EVs because the electric companies have been fleecing the public for decades and not improving the electrical grid. Thank god for Tesla to step into Texas and help that state out.

[@mikedx2706]

The trouble with TVs are the ones being sold by means of the dealership model of marketing. Dealers are gouging the public on the prices of the EVs made by the Remaining 3, and the factories cannot control what the dealerships do with pricing. Hence, the dealers can make or break the sales of the Remaining 3's EV products by charging huge additional dealer markup on the EVs they sell. That has hurt the sales of the Mustang Mach E, as well as hurt sales for the Ford and Chevy EV pickups. I believe that's the simple explanation for the ballooning inventory of those models, as well as the lack of a reliable and plentiful charging infrastructure for non-Tesla EVs.

[@thumper1747]

Agreed. Not only did they fail to invest in the required charging infrastructure, they also converted existing platforms. EA could have been just as efficient, reliable and ubiquitous as Tesla’s well conceived network, but instead it’s unreliable and frequently located away for highways in Walmart car parks.

[@ELCEV]

After spending some time in China recently and seeing about 60%+ of the cars were quality affordable EVs, it is only a matter of time before all the automakers will have their cars made in China with their own badge an imported into the US and other countries. In China I can purchase a incredible electric SUV for under $30,000.

[@CBBC435]

I'm all for building up an adversary's military. Not.

[@ELCEV]

@@CBBC435 Right they have 800+ bases around the world and are constantly in conflict somewhere, NOT.

[@kevtheobald]

The move to EVs is consumer driven. Most consumers would go EV if they got passed many of these myths that legacy automotive and oil companies have been spreading. Most people do not need a vehicle with 400 miles of range. Most people can recharge at home. The automotive industry has gotten complacent and just go for short easy profits. The reality is going EV is a national security and economic issue that if we throw it away for short haul profits, will destroy the US. China would love for Americans to stop buying EVs. OPEC loves being able to screw with the US economy. Energy independence is a powerful tool. Getting that tool for the US means a huge reduction in ICE vehicles usage. The government is often what forces companies to work on long-term goals. We have a horrible business mindset that is driven by Wall Street. Profits today, f**k the future, that is the Wall Street way. This "reset on EVs" extends well beyond EVs. They talked about how the automotive industry likes lower volume, higher prices. That pushes buyers out of the new car market. This is not about EVs, this is about greedflation. The Jeep dealer near my home has a dozen Wranglers with 7,899 to 9,899 rebates plastered across their windshields. Thr auto industry is doing what gas has done for decades. Raise prices until consumers cry, then back off little. Wait, then increase prices more until consumers cry again. Think about what you paid for gas in 2020 versus now. Back then it eas shocking to pay so much, now people think that is a bargin. Auto industry is playing the same game.

[@thumper1747]

Well said 👍

[@JT_771]

The shakeup that's going to hit this industry in the next 5 to 10 years ... and the number of people that still don't quite think it's going to happen. Gonna be crazy.

[@ryanstevens1855]

The ev's are coming but these queer auto journalists don't understand that most people have no interest in them. Regular people want V8's in their pickups etc. They don't wanna drive a goddamn cell phone around which is the equivalent of an ev.

[@JT_771]

@@ryanstevens1855 Regular people don't care if their car is powered by petrol, electricity or unicorn tears. They want reliable, inexpensive transportation. Likening an EV to a cell phone is quite absurd, well done.

[@gregb7353]

It's not going to be a price revolution, it's going to be the EV revolution. Most are behind and not catching up.

[@zacharyeversole]

@@ryanstevens1855I take it you have never driven an electric car before. As a daily driver they are decades ahead. Much more reliable, less maintenance, and quicker off the line. Makes driving a lot more fun. Also they cost less to own.

[@ryanstevens1855]

@@zacharyeversole That all might be true but it shouldn't be forced on people. If it was so great they wouldn't need to give big tax breaks just so people will buy them.

[@nycameleon]

The way every EV will have NACS in 2 years really applies the osborne effects to all current OEM EV's.

[@danharold3087]

We are also seeing increased activity in adding public chargers. BP's purchase of $100 million in Tesla SuperChargers. AMP's purchase by Ford are 2 examples.

[@thomas8421]

Lifelong Auto journalist hating on EVs not surprising

[@ELCEV]

Own a Tesla and you will never buy gas vehicles again.😅

[@BryceLovesTech]

I agree. My Tesla has 165,000 miles still going strong on the original battery.

[@jameshoffman552]

Replace every occurrence of EV with NTEV (non-Tesla EV) and this conversation might make sense.

[@melodyof]

🤣🤣🤣

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

Best time to buy a car is directly after laughing at these guests. Wow. Bring back John for balance.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

John is THE MAN!

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

The lack of imagination here (not to mention research) when it comes to charging in NYC is astounding!

[@BTC_Minarchist]

Why research when you can just assume and make stuff up?

[@cesartrujillo4190]

Brian, dealers need to stop in installing rapid chargers at their locations. Show people Slow chargers level two chargers. It’s the majority of the way they are going to charge at home. Focus on how easy it is to plug-in at night. Focus on load balancing and how nice it is to arrive to A vehicle with maximum range every day. If you don’t want to sell electric vehicles to your customers yet, sell them to your employees so they become experts because they live with them every day do deep discounts for employees, which they already have, so you can keep the sales prices high.

[@thumper1747]

Good points. I watch a great deal of content from Bjorn Nyland and Kyle O’Connor and pay attention to the charging issue. You’re right about level 2 and destination chargers. In Norway, all car parking spaces have such charges, as do hotels, gyms, shopping malls and even sports grounds. I’m convinced we don’t need huge, heavy batteries in passenger cars, smaller, lighter batteries that discharge efficiently and charge quickly between 20% and 80% will allow people to cover huge distances.

[@sflscott11]

There was a day, many days, that I would have been all for protecting our automakers. After their behavior over the last few years and their unprecedented fleecing of the consumer, should they fail, so be it.

[@18_rabbit]

well , some fleecing yes, due to the opportunity presented by supply chain constraints (which actually started before the pandemic, several yrs before actually) but actually the legacy yank brands cannot compete in affordable cars and regular small cars, vs the asian makers. That's reality. So GM and Ford no longer make cars for the avg or lower income person, bcuz they essentially cannot do it in any rational way, for the american price points. In other markets, they may be able to ie very low end developing world markets

[@martinmdl6879]

Automakers go out of business? So all the People who work for the car company, who work making parts, who work at dealers, who used to sell other things to all these now unemployed People; all these People are broke. That will only affect them, and not you? Be careful, you might get your wish.

[@hayduke4589]

How about that “free market”? GM and Ford knew about climate change as early as the 1960s. They have been lying to us for a long time.

[@AlanAbdo-nr6fj]

Automakers or dealerships?

[@dalazyone109]

Dealers have over priced new vehicles for decades , but now consumers aren’t going for the normal 15k and up extra charges they were suckered into paying ..

[@KsazDFW]

Where is John McElroy? You have these “experts” spouting ignorant propaganda about the falling EV demand. The dealers don’t make money on selling EVs because they cannot rip off consumers with $600+ service fees. The OEMs can’t make the EVs economically. Why would the dealers and OEM want to sell EVs? Tesla is growing while the others are shrinking. John would not let you guys get away with those BS.

[@ajaxa9]

Gary held a competition for the lowest IQ.

[@rp9674]

In spite of the disinformation, EVS are selling!

[@stargazer3828]

Agree 100%. The sales numbers and percent increase YOY speaks for itself! Those too dumb to look at the numbers spout out misinformation.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

@@stargazer3828this episode is ripe for outtakes to make fun of over the next few years. Their takes on EVs are so bad.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

​@@mrallelectriccarlunacywhy wait a year? Already aging like milk in a Florida summer.

[@stargazer3828]

@@mrallelectriccarlunacy 💯

[@scottburton414]

Nothing better than to listen to a bunch of fossils discuss the merits of ICE vehicles!

[@BTC_Minarchist]

True!

[@hornprof46]

People don't want legacy EV's. Tesla is going to have 60% of the market in 2030

[@zacharyeversole]

The Used EV market prices will definitely be coming down, especially as Tesla keeps coming out with price cuts on their current vehicles and also the cheaper model they have coming.

[@randyhyland847]

All this talk about affordable vehicles and the lack there of. Nobody wants to talk about the potential for China to come in and dominate the under 35k market.

[@rgeniec]

Wait until December. It will be a “December to remember.”

[@bumberchute]

EVs are a moonshot project- a human genome project that should be capturing America's imagination, represent the best spirit of our gritty, dig deep and transform the playing field of ingenuity - grid, semi-conductors, battery tech all inclusive. If Russia now dominated aerospace and the million tech-advantages that accrued to it because we passed on the space race because it was just too hard for us to do- or a majority of consumers didn't want it- where would we be?... in a bad place as followers instead of leaders.

[@jmbickham]

This. And whatever all this noise about the U.S. EV market and adoption rate… China is not only the leader in supply chain and battery tech, but their EV market growth is still rapidly growing. The EU’s EV market growth is still going gangbusters as well. Not to mention that European and Japanese car manufacturers have been drawing a significant amount of their profits have been coming from China… who are now not interested in the expensive, barely competitive EVs and for Japan… what EVs. ICE sales in China and Europe are rapidly declining. So Americans want to be the luddites that get left behind the rest of the world? Who is still going to be in business, have the scale to build at profit, ICE vehicles for Luddite Americans?

[@KsazDFW]

This was astonishing. Such ignorance! I cannot watch any more. Where is John??

[@kevtheobald]

I think Levin is slightly off when he says he does not see legacy builders adding factories in the US.They will add them to states where unions have little support. Toyota and Tesla did not pick Texas because of the weather.

[@davidlemieux615]

That could change with Mr Fain.

[@kevtheobald]

@@davidlemieux615 I think Fain will fade. If investments in US manufacturing shrinks, there will be fewer jobs to make union membership grow and I am sure both political parties will protect industry over workers. I would be impressed if Fain could turn Toyota's Texas truck factory to union controlled workers.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

OEMs aren’t business people that care about a profit? Since WHEN Doron? That’s all they are.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

🤣😂🤣😂

[@rodhonco5681]

So cars will be 30% higher??? Should be obvious there will be less Sales. Very simple.

[@lighthousesaunders7242]

Gary: "Today I'm going to bring in some very, very smart journalists.." WTF 😅 We can't blame the journalists for not being smart (let alone very, very smart) but we can rest assured that Gary is laboring heavily under the Dunning-Kruger yoke.

[@brilanto]

Hopefully it gets constantly harder to find misinformed and disinforming journalists, that is propagandists of their narratives.

[@hayduke4589]

Retrograde. How many years ago was this recorded? If this is what is floating around the Detroit bubble it sheds a little light on the current state of the “big 3”. Proof of what we’ve always known, they don’t want to build EVs in the US. Dealers don’t want to sell them. Post strike, we will continue to be marketed bigger combustion vehicles that are the most profitable for Detroit. All three sell affordable EVs in other markets Stellantis has many. Detroit knew about climate change almost as early as Exxon knew.

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

Sorry, but Brian Finkelmeyer is Stone Age.

[@joeperrone6677]

Seems like the even the plug-in hybrids are too expensive for most people. Our local Jeep dealer has 122 Jeep Wrangler 4xe's in stock - 1/3 of its total inventory - the $57,00 to $71,000 MSRP might be the problem. It has zero non-4xe Wranglers in stock. The also have 70 Grand Cherokee 4xe's in stock, starting with 20 $70,000 Trailhawks and and another 30 Overlands at $75,000+. While the total number of Wagoneers, Grand Wagoneers, Gladiators and Grand Cherokee L's is 18.

[@TeslaDo_d]

The 'consumer' cares about their money. The proof is when they drive a half mile and waste an additional 5 minutes to reach the gas station that sells for $.05 less per gallon. As a Tesla owner, I attempt to explain to my neighbors that their homes can dispense the equivalent of $1.50 per gallon gasoline to a car if they convert to electric. The amount of money that I save each month on the energy costs alone is more than enough to cover the slightly higher monthly loan payment. Eventually, all the consumers will realize the math and convert to electric. Right now, all they see is the entry price. It's like purchasing solar panels....big cost up front, but the monthly electric bill falls away into insignificance.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

🙄 if you make them where you sell them they don’t go on a ship. EV or not.

[@andykross7242]

Cox Automotive, you buy $10,000 of Stallantis stock and I’ll buy $10,000 of Tesla stock. In five years who ever makes more money, winner takes all.

[@thumper1747]

Nice

[@michaelnomura5196]

Just don’t put all of your eggs in one basket.

[@gregb7353]

Articles on cheapest SUV doesn't say anything about buyers wanting more affordable vehicles. It says that the 80% of the market that can't afford a new car want to know if maybe they can. Of course it's going to get a lot of views. Now those viewers might come back and buy one of those SUVs lightly used when it drops into their price range, but it says nothing about the new car market.

[@lancedoyle5026]

One of the disincentives for the dealers is EV's don't have as much required maintenance as ICE's. This cuts in to their high return recurring business. History from fleets with EV's shows significantly lower costs. No oil changes, tune ups, brakes last longer, etc.

[@ultrastoat3298]

48:46 lol we are at like 10% today. I realize it’s fun to use last year’s numbers today in a desperate attempt to make a point, but 2023 which is coming to a close is going to be at 10% for the year. Weird that it was 6%….. last year…. And 10% this year….. means EVs are in real trouble 😂

[@richardfahrney7139]

Doron. People don’t want EVs? They don’t want inferior ones. Worldwide sales continue to increase.

[@nicholasfigel4708]

It is frustrating to hear keepers of the status quo say that “nobody wants electric cars.”, when ev sales are consistently climbing, expected to exceed 1 million in the USA this year, and for BMW and Volvo, significant portions of their total sales. There is mo threat to the US auto sector; Only to the big three, and only if they refuse to engineer better modern (read: electric), vehicles.

[@rozonoemi9374]

Dealership are the big reason for low adoption of EV. If you walk-in a dealership, they will try to sell you any vehicles they have, & discourage the purchase of EV, since they want service that vehicles.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

Brian continually misses the point and parrots myopic right-wing talking points. He’s insufferable.

[@blackvr4tt]

The second half of this conversation was filled with a lot of out dated info about EVs. It was frustrating to listen to. In the future pls have an EV expert or someone with more experience in the area.

[@kqschwarz]

EVs would take off if "the government" said the sale of gasoline and diesel would be terminated Jan 1 2030. That would basically terminate the sale of gasoline and diesel cars and trucks immediately and EV sales would take off like a rocket.

[@Chickensk-y4s]

Cart before the buggy, no place to charge. Only at home

[@ultrastoat3298]

18:17 huh? What do you think chargers and challengers are lol. Go down to Atlanta and that’s all you see. Most people like getting more the 8 mpg and have their insurance cost less than their mortgage though.

[@rodrigogaya5276]

No one wants EVs! (Model Y best selling) The grid can't handle the load! (Huh?!) Classic autoline.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

Yep. This show when it gets like this tanks Barnum and Bailey ticket sales because folks can watch a circus on KZbin.

[@davidlemieux615]

Have you noticed such comments go unchallenged based on a certain host being absent?! Just saying…

[@rodrigogaya5276]

@@davidlemieux615 they have to play to the lowest common denominator. Just because they don't care to read doesn't me we havent.

[@BTC_Minarchist]

​@@davidlemieux615😊

[@ryanstevens1855]

Its a sliver of overall sales. Global warming is a hoax. Face it. Go drive your shitty battery car. I'll drive my 6.2 V8 Trailboss.

[@richardfahrney7139]

Hey Nancy the do currently make muscle cars. They are called Tesla Plaids

[@shane80002007]

38% cars sold over $50,000 but what about it you take out the top 10% of vehicle prices then what the number would be, if you look at Lamborghini Ferrari prices rises over the last 10 years that must have something to do with it

[@brilanto]

Or just Detroit 3's dealership markups...

[@pippyunicorn3857]

There was so much misleading information and statements in this episode! I really enjoy Autoline, I am a big car guy, but seriously, so much anti-EV rhetoric, and nobody saying otherwise. A real disappointment.

[@rozonoemi9374]

I don't buy a car based on its depreciation, since I keep my vehicles 8 to 10 years, already 6 years on my Tesla M3 LR.

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

Bronco is nicer than Jeep, but I want a Bronco EV.

[@rozonoemi9374]

Cargo carrier have been polluting with cargo carrier, ever since Japan has been sending all the Nipon vehicles, not just "Electrified" vehicule. Hypocrisy statement!

[@adriandelaat2905]

Not a good time to buy from big three, you would just be supporting there monster increase in wages, boycott the big three, but only the vehicles built in Canada, and USA.

[@noo4pass]

No.

[@ggffrr33]

Gary - you let Brian talk too much. Most of your shows are very entertaining, but you usually let one of the guests control the show. Don’t invite several guests if you are not going to make them part of the discussion.

[@nick0126]

jan/feb are best time to buy a car...

[@brenthill3241]

Let me guess. It's a boffo great time to buy a car. But only if it's electric.

[@brilanto]

And not from the Big 3...

[@martinmdl6879]

Automakers go out of business? So all the People who work for the car company, who work making parts, who work at dealers, who used to sell other things to all these now unemployed People; all these People are broke. That will only affect them, and not you? Be careful, you might get your wish.

[@sjvtesla]

😮

[@martinmdl6879]

If you pay me to take a 2 year old EV, I guess I would.

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

EVs make better muscle cars. There are EV sedans that step all over ICE muscle cars. The USA is usually a new technology laggard, but ICE muscle cars are on the way to extinction.

[@brilanto]

Soyboys, SJWs, trans activists, feminists, Zoomers, Gen X don't want polluting but inferior muscle or ICE cars. As long as the OEMs are not even aware of their existence, less of their needs there is no perspective of hope for a rozy future.

[@outkast40]

Most electric cars are faster than most muscle cars. Simple KZbin search for these old Tymer's .

[@orionlmcm9796]

Buying tesla , No one else is close

[@adriandelaat2905]

Remember last winter when, the Norwegian countries banned charging EVS, so there would be enough energy to heat homes.

[@gregb7353]

I can't find any evidence of this, got a link?

[@brilanto]

What a blatant and absurd lie - dare to present evidence?

[@martinmdl6879]

EVs? We are watching what happens when WOKE ESG FANTASY runs into the brick wall of FACTS.

[@2012bigPerm]

If you are an initiated car shopper like a lot of us are that watch this stuff...you'd have to be a fucking fool, a wealthy one at that, to think it's a good time to buy anything that you don't NEED. This is the worst time to buy a vehicle in the past 20+ years. Crappy vehicles are $30k, 15 years ago that got a desirable vehicle (and regular folks don't 'adjust for inflation' because inflation never adjusts for us), not something you had to settle for...Glad I had a good run while I did because my son will never experience that as things are now...not unless he clears triple what I do...I sure hope he does.