The Survivor Problem | Town of Salem

Thumbnail artwork by @atsekabe
Ah survivor, probably the least liked role in town of salem. In this video, we’ll discuss the unhealthy way it affects the game and why it should be removed altogether
ShadowBeatz reference video: • Town of Salem - Using ...
(Recognize anybody in this one?)

[@D0omsday779]

I actually love playing the aggressive Survivor. My normal plan revolves around actively trying to get myself confirmed and then happily joining any dogpile that's occurring. The playstyle is simultaneously much more fun than sitting around and, from my experience, actually seems to win more often than being passive. I'm one of the only Surv players I've seen that actively asks TI's to check me cause, quite frankly, if I wasn't a surv it would look REALLY sus.

[@encyrpticcodes8035]

I usually claim Mayor as surv, play super agressive D2, and watch as maffia who atacked me gets confused over why do i have defense. Then i out them, town hangs them, and then i come out as surv. Then they hang me anyways :(

[@VagueCastle649]

Oh man it would a real shame if someone were to... douse you...

[@killerwolf9409]

@@encyrpticcodes8035 that’s likely because they may think you are a role such as arso or exe, or it’s an evil majority

[@artsyvids2563]

i tried that i was hanged for being annoying by some asshole

[@killerwolf9409]

@Zypher the only way people won’t think you’re evil is in a classic game with a confirmed invest, but nobody really plays classic game modes.

[@SinCitysOnly]

I play Surv the exact same way as ShadowBeats does. I flat out admit it, I tell everyone I'm voting every day cause ending the game faster is the best way to play as Surv. And in the three games I've had of Surv since using this method... it's worked.

[@zweis]

This shouldn't work because Arso has the exact same wincon

[@lorathian]

You don’t even need to declare you’re gonna be aggro lmao There’s an art to being a pushy and aggressive surv and generally speaking, if you can’t keep yourself from looking scummy or getting destroyed by something stronger than your vest, that’s honestly on you (unless the dusa or whatever that got you wasn’t paying attention, but that’s a whole different problem lmao)

[@Folktales000]

Survivor needs more impact in the game then the kingmaker at the end of the game. Something like giving survs more interesting tools to complete the "simple" goal of SURVIVE. Like make it so that the survivor role comes with a different mechanic like hiding instead of putting on body armor. You could choose to hide during the day and you'll be unable to hide the next night because you were too tired. And when hiding, any attacking role who attacks you will find you're missing but all investigative roles will still be able to investigate your house for information. This would be better as it gives you a surefire way to confirm yourself. Its just that to confirm yourself to town, you need a vigilante to come kill you. This would force the survivor to try to find ways to side with the mafia, coven, or another neutral more often since they are always guaranteed to have a killing role on their team that may confirm you to them. ToS could also just make another role to replace the survivor role like something from the mod community could become a real role.

[@doomyboi]

Survivor could get a secondary ability like that one Mafia role in BetterTOS has, hiding at another player's house 2 times per game. Between protecting oneself and redirecting to someone else a couple more times, that might help shake things up a bit.

[@TarsonTalon]

I have the PERFECT way to spice up Survivor: In addition to the vests (reduced to 2), the Survivor can be a visiting role that can stay at someone's house for the night, and converse with the occupant. This opens up the potential for a lot of chaos, as the Survivor can't confirm someone's identity, but can have conversations that people won't know about because they don't see whispers during the day. This could also encourage town to interrogate the survivor for leads, rather than simply lynch them.

[@comet.x]

survivor just couch surfing sounds hilarious ngl

[@spookyperson7096]

I don't get it. Aside from you now can easily confirm the survivor, what is the point if the occupant can just ignore or tell the survivor nonsense?

[@xylo2051]

would this be equivalent to a role block for the person being visited? i feel like this would suck as other roles have their own shit to do at night and could prob distract them or stop them from talking to their factions at night? and that would immediately confirm surv which would be a free win by after confirming yourself just do nothing, visiting houses would also HAVE make you be doused, ww rampaged, and maybe even maf/coven killed since youre with them or else theres no consequence. that's the stupidest change ive ever heard of... and 2 vests?????? games go to day 8+ sometimes thats hell, i dont see one actual positive change you suggested.

[@noahthesk]

@@xylo2051 being confirmed it doesn’t stop you from being murdered or geting hung

[@xylo2051]

@@noahthesk WHY WOULD ANYONE ATTACK OR BOTHER A CONFIRMED SURVIVOR? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

[@citrisaurora1182]

Town lynching surv is one thing that has been around, but now more evils have taken to wanting surv dead even if they are working with that evil. It's become this role that the community jumps on, often ruining it for both the surv and the factions distracted by their presence.

[@VagueCastle649]

I think there was this one game where the mafia decided to rb and kill the d1 surv claim.

[@petermelang6695]

The last time I saw a surv claim getting lynched is ages ago. I push them every game I'm town, but the rest is always like "leave surv alone". Most of these games end by surv siding evils.

[@citrisaurora1182]

@@petermelang6695 it is true that the lynching has become less, but, in my games, it is far more common for them to be killed at night, in late game, when evils know their role and they are less likely to, or have no more ability to, vest.

[@Reynnan123]

​@@petermelang6695 so true survs will ALWAYS side evils no matter what and then he ends up siding evils in a situation town would win if he died

[@noahthesk]

@@Reynnan123 not always i’ve seen a few people including myself trying to help the town and then we still get killed for it I thought the survivor just wants to survive not get murdered by literally every single role in the game

[@ye5170]

My problem with survivor isnt the role itself its the playerbase. Survivor has a very normal concept for a neutral in deception games but it just doesnt fit in Town of Salems gameplay. But the playerbase ruined the survivor role. Evildoers instead of getting a good claim to deceive the town since Survivor doesn’t fit well in Town of Salem they Will usually claim survivor. Back in the day in TOS there were much more survivor claims. Atleast every game 1 maf and NK would claim it guaranteed. To counter-act this Townies decided to hang any survivor claim. Not all townies but most of them to stop them from being a late game evildoer. This includes real Survivors as most of the time Town wont bother to check you. Some townies even organized Escorts and Vigilantes to whisper eachother and kill Survivors. Overtime people stopped claiming surv that much but its still a problem. Survivors just get lynched nowadays and usually they are real. It also makes it worse that Mayors and Jailors have taken a liking to claiming Survivor to help them live. Influencing evildoers to kill Survivor Claims. Thats why I refrain from ever fake claiming survivor as any role. Of course the problems not fixed and the Playerbase will decide. I want to hear your take on this problem Ada. Maybe it will be more about the gameplay or the deception. But im now happy people are realizing that the Survivor Role has major problems around it. Cant wait for the Video! Also im very passionate about Survivor. Idk why I like the role so much. Im just a fan of Neutrals who work for them selves. Some good, some bad, and others outright chaotic. It makes Social Deception games the way they are. Thats why im not happy that the Survivor role is having a lot of problems. Everygame I have spared any survivor or checked them to confirm a Survivor claim instead of hanging. 75% they are real and yk what the other 25% is. If you are reading this Ada im sorry for making this way to long!

[@QWxiZX]

> Evildoers instead of getting a good claim to deceive the town since Survivor doesn’t fit well in Town of Salem they Will usually claim survivor Just push and hang them, lol. > This includes real Survivors as most of the time Town wont bother to check you No, that's happens only to those who decided "NAH, I'M NOT TRYING TO LIE TO PEOPLE WHILE BEING NEUTRAL, THAT'S BAAD, I WILL CLAIM MY REAL ROLE TO EVERYONE".

[@VagueCastle649]

Honestly, Pirate is pretty much a better true neutral role than surv since you can actually *DO SOMETHING*.

[@cinnabunz1532]

I agree with you neutrals are my faves, I do feel like they've been neutered recently (sobs in arsonist) but it is still fun to be a wild card in some capacity. I love playing jester especially as a chaos gremlin and getting voted just because the town thinks I'm an evil who doesn't know how to play.

[@noahthesk]

same I absolutely love the neutrals

[@MrJoshy]

As a survivor, I often finding my self fake claiming and act townie while pushing people and voting. If I find myself to be a kingmaker, I often will try to side the person who would of won if I wasn't there. Even in one of pipe's video, I ended up not voting in a kingmaker situation along with another confirmed surv and let pipe kill off the final Townie

[@kevintrang6447]

And then evils attack you because you sound seemed like a townie, then are voted up

[@noahthesk]

@@kevintrang6447I don’t say a word for seven days for some reason the mafia attack me (I did everything to prove im notTown) lose because they needed my vote then scream at me for not saying shit but yet maf killed me :/

[@Zero2x0]

I remember playing Survivor getting lynched by another player who pushed me pretending to be Exe who turned out to be another Survivor. Sometimes the plot twists don't make any sense, but that's at least more fun than saying hey I'm Surv check me.

[@gavino5505]

Funnily enough, there's a chance that if they removed survivor, survivor would still be a common claim. Soon, jesters may start fake claiming the now removed survivor, and it would work like a charm as town points out how survivor no longer exists. If that became the go to for jesters, evils would start claiming survivor all over again to make town think they're jest and to leave them alone. Granted that's only in games where jailor doesn't exist, but still kinda funny to think about how that might happen.

[@averagemicrosoftpaintenjoy7115]

well tos 2 is now a thing

[@cursedhfy3558]

That's where the "innos are sus"meta comes into play. When town has little to no info, lynching the jester makes sense. Especially early game it eliminates the potential evil and at worst lose an unconfirmed townie. Evils who inno are sused out and therefore forced to guilty.

[@lastresort1plays]

The problem with surv’s is the games community, and lack of ability to confirm a surv it feels like as opposed to mafia or blood on the clock tower which have similar roles it’s extremely difficult to confirm a surv as such.

[@HoodTrampoline]

Because of your comment, I have discovered Blood on the Clocktower and will be watching multiple videos on it for the foreseeable future. Thank you

[@AmGaming-qd8vo]

Personally, thats the joy of playing Survivor. If a survivor was easily confirmed, its ability to win is basically guaranteed. I see why you dislike it, but personally I find it enjoyable. I will actually argue its harder to confirm roles in BOTC, since in TB, there are only 5 characters that can see someone's true role, and 5 who can check a class/team.

[@noahthesk]

@@AmGaming-qd8vo I have been confirmed before and slaughtered the very next night vigilante werewolves vampires Mafia and Neutral Killing‘s: Arsonist werewolf keeps fucking me over occasionally serial killer but mostly Mafia

[@AmGaming-qd8vo]

@@noahthesk And I get why you hate it. Doesnt happen much to me, but I see why you hate them.

[@noahthesk]

@@AmGaming-qd8vo Also I hate Mafia because I become it way too damn much

[@ShadowBeatzInc]

I'm kinda torn on this. As you and others said, I think the main issue with Survivor is more of a community meta problem rather than a role problem, by which I mean they're kind of expected to be seen and not heard, and that's not a fun role to play in a social deduction game. Like you said, fake claiming really isn't a great option, and so your only real choice is to claim surv day 1, but the second Pestilence appears you're on the chopping block which is again, not exactly a fun scenario to be in. There's really no reason for a Jailor not to execute you night 2 either, barring a really good lead on another evil. Lots of scenarios where you just lose for doing nothing because of the amount of evils who fake claim your role and like, what can you do besides just take the L? With that being said though, survivor does have the advantage that those fake claiming evils do not: invest results. Get someone to check you. People are suggesting ways to give survivor a way to confirm themselves but I think that's ridiculous. No role should be given an "auto-win" feature, which confirmed survs essentially have unless there's a Hex Master or Arso in the game. You should have to earn it. The way to win as survivor currently is the way that you win as every non-town role: a silver tongue and being able to read the lobby. Learn how to say the right things and get yourself confirmed, or at least do your best to lead the suspicion off of you. Town likes to lynch surv claims with no leads, so make a lead. Call out someone who's quiet, point out a weak will, anything. Is it going to work every time? No. Nor should it. But there are better ways to play survivor then cowering in a corner going "uhh guys... I'm just going to abstain so I don't make anyone angwy" I don't necessarily think that the existence of Survivor in the game is a bad thing either. Yes, losing a game because a Kingmaker survivor who did nothing all game just decides that you lose is frustrating, full stop. But at the same time it adds a potential win-condition for a faction that normally wouldn't have one (think 4 town with no TK). Yes, people do fake claim surv a lot, but I (personally) enjoy the risk management that that brings. If you're town, do you hang the surv in case they're NK? If they are actually surv then you've just given the mafia another day without losing a member. But what if the surv IS mafia? Or coven? Decision decisions... Also, giving night immune evils a way to explain their night immunity isn't exactly a bad thing I don't think. Without survivor, what do they do? Say they're BG and that they vested for no reason? What happens when they get attacked again? Say they weren't attacked and that mafioso was just AFK to explain no red kills? I guess you could argue that any other role who gets attacked has their game end right there so it makes sense for the NK's clock to start ticking, and even IF they claim surv they're probably dying anyway, but the main point is that it gives at minimum plausible alibis to roles that don't have teammates. Okay I said I was torn but I just gave 3 pro-Surv paragraphs so maybe I'm not as torn as I thought... I wouldn't hate it if Surv was removed from the game (I think when NB was removed from Ranked years ago I think it made it better, for instance), but I also don't think it's *quite* that bad.

[@xylo2051]

amazing

[@ethurus3811]

I feel like Pirate has the same problem as survivor could. Pirates really just slow the game down until they won, then become the king maker as no one wants to waste a night killing someone who has already won and causes a lot more of these kingmaker situations. I swear half the games you play survivor it always ends with either the town outing all the mafia or the mafia getting majority, especially with the "lynch all survivors" mentality it's caused the role into having to having to claim Psychic to stay alive just that much longer, as any other town role is suicide if you get checked. So in my opinion Survivors are only forced into this kind of game play you described because of how people treat them. Amne is also a neutral but never gets pushed so hard even tho it can choose to be Town or Evil, Amnes are always just going to remember the winning faction, which makes it so much harder for the comebacks everyone enjoys. Least with Surv they have the option to turn around and vote aganist the winning faction.

[@corpserule1582]

I think an interesting take on survivor would be the ability to "pick a side", this is a nighttime ability where you choose a living player to "join". At the beginning of the next day, it announces to the town that "A survivor has decided to join {Player Name}". From that point on, that player will join the target player in nighttime chat. If you don't pick a side before the game ends, you lose, you must also survive and win your faction's win condition, if that player is a jester or has already won, the survivor will become a jester Otherwise becoming an extra vote and nighttime chat partner of the target (marking a strategic difference between 2 serial killers, and one serial killer and surv on a team). The consequences of this, is that claiming to be a survivor as a defensive idea, would be quickly cut through in the same way as amnesiac. "if you're survivor, join the jailor, or we hang you", they also don't have an elevated win rate from picking "the best side", as they also need to survive in addition to fufilling the win condition of the target. The ability to confirm themself might come at the cost of one or two of their protects, as every other faction that was betrayed, is likely to want to kill them, but if they feel like the survivor is always protected, they probably wouldn't want to attack Anyway, It just came to my mind and i thought it was cool.

[@smightercal]

I think it would be interesting if when you're attacked while vested, you know who attacked you and then you can either message the person who attacked you, or try and get them lynched

[@Drago_Whooves]

maybe even go beyond just knowing attackers by seeing all visits to you ? maybe even have a permanent defence like exe?

[@DespOIcito]

or even just have the attacker get a unique message which tells them youre a surv? if they know youre a surv it means they can contact you and doesnt give surv an unfair advantage of knowing a killing role

[@Mech3001]

Well… People already say that surv is easy to fake as arso, and that would just make it even easier

[@vunivenor5994]

​@@Mech3001 yea, the idea is very interesting, but if not done correctly just makes surv the ultimate arso fake claim, which just makes the situation worse

[@xylo2051]

thank GOD you dont have influence over tos roles

[@Predated2]

I think survivor should be able to see who moves where each night. It's a huge list to keep track of, but it would basically give the survivor information that no other role truly has. Spy comes closest by seeing that maff and coven have visited, but Survivor would actually see who visited who. This would give the survivor the ability to deduce through movements which side has the best chance to win. But here's the kicker, they have to pick a side before they can speak. This includes talking to jailor, medium, being put on trial. With VFR being as popular as it is, this can force a very early forced surv claim. And even after claiming, the survivor works like Mayor: not being able to send or recieve whispers, forcing all information to be public. The faction they pick wont know that they picked it. But the survivor will be part of that faction. To make things interesting: once the entire faction has been whiped out, the survivor gains 3 votes and can still win for that faction(if the rest doesnt find out). Fun fact: if you pick a faction that doesnt exist due to a misclick or you simply having been fooled, you still get the 3 votes, but it would be very obvious that you picked wrong Basically, you are thrown into the match with the only task being "survive by any means possible" rather than "yknow, just chill the next 15 minutes". You would still be the kingmaker, but your decision is much earlier in the game, you can play risky and claim d1(but people are definitely going to check), or safe untill you are forced to claim. No one has reasons to throw you out on a whim untill you are given 3 votes(aka, indicating you are the last one of your faction left). Its a big rework, and there would need to be some tweaks to work with neutral factions, as a WW dying leaving behind a survivor with 3 votes can be a bit OP, but honestly, I dont think thats too much of an issue either. If the survivor can survive the entire game without being forced to speak, they also win, but that would basically never happen.

[@mostlymadd248]

That sounds interesting

[@Reynnan123]

so basically amne + mayor?

[@xylo2051]

not even reading the rest of this until i say this but a few things HORRIBLYYY WRONGG with this i cant even call it an idea cuz of how stupid it is LMAOO. 1. makes tracker useless 2. how would this be a "survivor" anymore if they're keeping track of all this info? and then boom everyone is practically confirmed or sus by day 2 3. i feel like this would benefit town 99% more than any evil making them a legit target which gives you so much risk and little reward. atp its a job to course through all that info, assuming the surv doesnt just LIE???

[@xylo2051]

curious to know what you think "survivor" means, this sounds like the concept for the most overpowered, game ruining, unlikable role ever.

[@Predated2]

@@xylo2051 1. You're assuming survivor sides with town(if they do, they are pretty much dead) 2. They literally cannot talk untill they pick a side. No one is confirmed or sus untill they do. If they do pick a side, they will quickly die and then lose if they obviously picked favourites. Their job is to survive, they will lose if they die. 3. A survivor who can talk is a survivor who has picked a side, once they picked a side, they are dangerous to everyone, because they will always have to claim they sided town to not be voted out, but that makes them a huuuuge target for evils. It's a very OP role change, but one that has very little chance of surviving the entire game. It's still the case of "if there are no sus, vote the survivor", but for different reasons. It's the survivors job to lie to their teeth to everyone, without messing up, untill they can publicly be safe. Funny thing is that I havent mentioned the survivor having vests at all. Making it a bit ambiguous if they would have it. I personally don't think they would, or if they would, only while they are still truly neutral and haven't picked a side yet.

[@InFluxCapacitor]

Playing Survivor aggressively makes me wonder... What if Survivor's goal is to survive up to a certain point? Like say half the players are dead, therefore you escape the village by then. When the next day rolls around, the Survivor is gone and there's a special message saying they have absconded. Removes chances of King Makers (maybe even add spicier king makers by trying to kill evils or town before you go) The weird part I wanna add is maybe they have one ability to use each night as the following ONCE: -Frame -a special douse/hex combo that notifies both HM and Arso -Transporter -Reveal a role + track + lookout -Vest And maybe an innate Spy tracker too, reason being that you can side with *anyone* with that info. It sounds a lot like modded but fuck it, why not chaos from a True Neutral.

[@airmanon7213]

This I think turns Surv into Neutral Chaos. Just saying

[@InFluxCapacitor]

@Airmanon which is why the latter half is food for thought. I do abide with how the Survivor's win condition should be to win earlier than others just as an experiment Then the devs revert that win condition so that the Community is primed to play Survivor that way.

[@Reynnan123]

PM but better

[@Mr60Gold]

When I get Survivor I do whatever, I will make deals in whispers, be aggressive and explain that I do not care about who they are, I just want them dead. Do I get lynched? Eventually, yes, I think I only won one or 2 games as survivor but if you play survivor as a wild card, they are much more fun to play (btw I play exclusively all any where people take the game more casually most of the time so that helps) Solid video btw.

[@cyanideytcuriousseadoggo]

That does make sense. Since your just trying to live until the game ends getting someone voted off every day is good when it won’t lead to you dying or being voted off yourself right after as your bringing the game to an end faster

[@erikm8373]

Really, any surv fix is almost always going to be completely redesigning the role from the ground up. Personally, I feel like Surv would be more interesting if it leaned away from "just a guy trying to live his life, he doesn't mind who wins so long as he's alive" and was more "crazy doomsday prepper who doesn't trust anyone," with the goal of getting rid of anyone who would threaten you, by any means necessary. I'm not sure what kind of abilities would lean into that fantasy, but I imagine you could think of something. Anything is more interesting than current surv.

[@kemosonicfan123lbp]

Isn't that just vet's thing minus the doomsday prepper part?

[@noahthesk]

that would be very interesting if the survivor had the ability to just get rid of anyone they deem a threat to themselves

[@shopnil4]

I still feel the role of a true neutral role can work and be very interesting in a game like Town of Salem, but it definitely needs a lot of workings.

[@theprettypetard2524]

honestly i think the issue is mainly people not actually understanding roles and not being very creative with their play style. people usually end up following the meta way to play too closely. there will need to be a many brave one dying repeatedly becaus people are to stupid to understand their new strat even when explained. many years ago i had one very weird strat for playing medium to make it actually fun and good but i nearly always ended up getting lynched becaus nobody could use their brain to understand what i did. the strat was basically to fake claim multiple roles to force people to claim publicly. once i got a solid claim i would admit to lying and just wanting them to claim and them go with my next fake claim to get another to claim. if i got a sketchy claim i would push to lynch and also admit to lying right before the verdict. the idea was to basically force everyone to claim so the liar could be more easily spoted while painting a big target on my uselless anoying medium back to protect more usefull people. if pushed hard enough i would claim my actual role and explain what i was doing but i usually got lynched for having lied becaus that is what jester do. weirdly enough people thought i was actually jester and where actively lynching me for some reason.

[@sureindubitably3771]

I like that the lore was the survivor was a bg and failed to protect the rest of the town to evil, leaving him paranoid and the last surviving town member. But people treat surv as an evil magnet and every single time sides with evil

[@ayzix-polytopia3854]

How I play surv : dm a random person d1 and tell them I’m siding with them whatever they are. Honestly the most consistent and fun way of winning I found. I also have a fake claim if the person I’m siding with is evil. It’s basically an alternate version of ga

[@supernovaaaa16]

what i usually do as surv is fake claim invest, whisper ask people for roles at the start of each day, and just “confirm” everyone who tells me any claim at all. it doesn’t always work, but i always have a blast sucking up to everyone

[@PikaPower7777]

ShadowBeatz is the perfect example of a good player who gets screwed over by a terrible meta…

[@O-01-04]

Survivor is actually my favourite role to play in Town of Salem, alongside Jester, Amne and Guardian Angel. I still do the "Hey, I'm Survivor. TI on me to confirm my existence please" instantaneously because... Surv, and I want myself confirmed ASAP to not get thrown under the bus as a fake claiming NK later. but I find playing Surv just kind of fun because at the end of the day I just wanna be the guy on the end screen like "gg lol", and trying to convince town to NOT instantly kill you despite it being the safest play is also fun. Like, I recently had a game where it was 1 Pest, 2 maf, 2 Town, and me. And I convinced Maf + Town "Hey, the Sherrif Claim is the pestillence, it shows up for Invest Results so it's VERY likely them." which everyone else jumped on (INcluding the invest in the game who never once checked me to make sure I was a true surv the whole game which I don't get but whatever) I also like working with the TIs to confirm my existence for the sole purpose of being able to ACTUALLY play Town of Salem instead of being like "Welp, I die now because I can't be confirmed." Regardless I tend to join in on dogpiles and play aggressively to some extent, but whenever I'm on the stand in those situations I'm like "Yeah it's the safe play, I don't blame you, but I AM Surv and you should go for someone else." You still 100% die because it's better for evils to lynch you so they don't get voted up as quickly, and Town has no reason to let a surv win unless they know the surv will side with them later, which is very likely to not happen considering all surv cares about is reaching the end of the game.

[@Bob_Bobinson]

1) This is the best point here. I won't contest it cause it's true. 2) I mean you shouldn't be claiming survivor in the first place. I swear claiming survivor is the ultimate noob trap. That being said people still do being boring is fair. Though that's the playerbase to blame. 3) That's because people play him in a boring way. People need to stop just claiming survivor and doing nothing. Tho the point about people lynching active survs is sad. I wish I could get a surv like shadowbeats in my game. 4) Yes you can and you should be. Sure you probably can't make more complex claims but simple ones still works. A role like sk can also get attacked at night and yet they can claim a town role. Tho if the chance of getting attacked is that much of a problem you can claim to be a vested bg. Not the best claim but it's still an option. TDLR skill issue.

[@snarkventuregaming4746]

I've found the best way for me to get wins as survivor is to claim it day 1 and then actively participate. Town usually has majority early on, and you have defense for 4 nights. By helping town, pushing non-claimers, reminding the town of leads, bringing up dead players' wills and the like, you reduce the chance the town kills you and the mafia can't really do much about it. And unfortunately, if the town doesn't have the game well in hand by day 5, they usually aren't a large voting block anymore. This leads you to being able to abandon the townies and side evils as your defense runs out. I get the impression this MAY have been the original intent of the role. You also have the added benefit that evils might actually waste time attacking into your vests thinking you're either mayor or jailor faking survivor and if you announce that immediately it can make you seem more legitimate.

[@cyanideytcuriousseadoggo]

True. The surv wants to end the game asap while balancing that with not dying

[@andrewsheiman8574]

One of my favorite survivor moments was rolling Surv in All Any, groaning, and then getting bitten day 1 after I decided to not vest. Immediately I thought, "ugh, vamps", but then I thought, "wait this is 10 times more fun than Surv". It just sucks to play as Surv. I think there's ways to fix the role, but I'm not sure if it can be done while keeping it totally neutral. One idea I had was to give the surv 1 or maybe 2 vests instead of 4, but when a surv successfully blocks an attack, it reveals their role the next day (think Mayor). So as a surv you can try to bait yourself into getting attacked and vest at the right time to confirm yourself, and it would also decrease the likelihood of surv fake claims (since evils have reason to attack a surv claim jailor to confirm the surv, and for NKs getting attacked would expose them as a fake surv). At the very least it would be more interesting gameplay than "vest 4 times in a row and hope the game ended and you were handed a win in that time".

[@solarstorm5242]

When I land on survivor, I NEVER claim it day 1. Reason? It’s boring, and I myself love to hang surv claims due to how boring, unimaginative and not trustworthy they usually are. Instead, I claim a town non visiting role than happens to land in the same claim list as a survivor (Which is Psychic) Doing so usually allows me to stay alive easily until n4, at which point in CAA, I try to scumread to find a faction that I can win with. I usually go for who merits it the most. I am more likely to side with a WW than with coven or maf if they did not confirm me and backed me up. Idk, it just makes the game more exciting

[@generalgoldstar7760]

Idk why ive only come across this video now but I have to say that surv is on of my favourite role which comes from my radical way of playing it. If i am Surv I always go for the boldest claims possible. I go for Stuff like jailor, mayor or spy and will try to lead the town but "pretend to be horrible at it" and basically lead the town into their own doom and try to control the towns lynches to bring myself into a kingmaker situation or one where someone needs a surv to win at which point i reveal and give them the option to either trust me or guarantee a loss. Youd be surprised how often this works and I cannot imagine any more fun way to play surv

[@jumnei5159]

3 reasons why you should always kill surv claims. 1: look at them. "I'm surv day 1. Would you give me a free win pretty please?" 2: no, look at them. "Sorry, but I'm going to side with the (other) faction." 3: did you LOOK AT THEM!?! "may God have mercy on your soul Surv claim. We couldn't find a will. Surv claim role was arsonist."

[@UsainWolt]

If we had to think of a solution for survivor, I think either giving it a way to confirm itself (just as amnesiacs, guardian angels, and pirates) or giving it a way to acquire information. Giving it a self-confirm would stop evils from defaulting to it as a fake claim, and giving it information would force fake survivors to at least participate in the deduction portion of the game while also allowing real survivors to have an impact on the game (to speed it up or support another faction). They could also lie about their information, if they wanted to work undercover with an evil faction. Just a thought. It's funny, because pirates usually make for better survivors than survivors themselves. People are more willing to trust them since they're easily confirmed and they can pal around with other factions better because they have a win condition that isn't contingent on another faction. Survivors do, too, but you see weird, niche scenarios where they are forced to side one way or another, or have to die in the crossfire if they choose to side with the wrong team (like guardian angels). Removing survivor won't solve the issue of lazy claims entirely, I can see a world where they default to "amnesiac" instead. But without some kind of change, I agree they're in a sad spot right now.

[@missmorbid1439]

I agree with your take on pirates, and I would like to add that people also like pirates more because they can actually help whoever they side with in a way other than being an extra vote by RBing/killing targets. I would disagree on your take that amnesiac would be the new survivor. I very rarely see a fake amnesiac claim work out unless the town is really dumb. This is because they just say “Remember X role or we’ll kill you”. Claiming amne might work in certain scenarios, like if you’re an arso about to ignite, but it’s not a viable long term strategy.

[@UsainWolt]

@@missmorbid1439 I have to agree about your stance on pirates, actually. Pirates have additional utility in the way of being a roleblocker, but beyond even that, just that fact that they aren't going to turn out as an arsonist or some other silent evil makes them a lot easier to work with. It's really hard to be sure the survivor is actually a survivor without some circumstantial proof, everyone being outed, or some consigliere/potion master checking them out for themselves, unless they were a guardian turned. Being able to roleblock and sometimes even kill a player can really swing a game, but that could also work against you if the evils would rather waste time to avoid pirate shenanigans entirely, so it's a double-edged scimitar to have that power. Amnesiac isn't a "survive to the end" claim, but neither is survivor. It's a panic claim with low effort and little need for a will, and would probably be as effective as a vigilante claim where early game, you might get a pass (up until the point where an important town dies), but late game, you get hit with the "you should've acted by now" quip. It's not meant to survive, just to relieve the VFR pressure by claiming SOMETHING during the daytime. Survivor claims don't survive very often, yet people still use them, so clearly it's a stalling tactic. The only reason survivor works any percent of the time is by preying on the players' empathy, because the survivor, if real, is 95% likely to guilt trip you if you get them killed. However, I completely forgot executioner exists, which would be the far more obvious and safer transition for the former lazy survivor claims to migrate to, since they keep the defense, and the only "work" they need to put in is attempting a mislynch or saying "easy win" when a townie hangs. (Plaguebearer also fills a similar niche, and can be interchangeable with a fake executioner claim in certain circumstances.)

[@doomyboi]

Maybe survivors know exactly who attacked them each night they get attacked while vesting?

[@UsainWolt]

@@doomyboi That would just make them look like arsonists, which again, serves for a lazy survivor claim and really doesn't help them work with evils. Even if you tried to whisper that evil, they still might lynch you thinking you're an arsonist. If you want to go the "identify who visited you" route, perhaps something the way of trapper, where you know the exact roles of people who visit you. But truthfully, I think there are far better solutions.

[@missmorbid1439]

@@UsainWolt I have to disagree with the idea that survivor isn’t a “survive to the end” claim. Most people who claim survivor on D1, (real and fake) are generally left alone until there are no other leads or there’s evidence against them. Unlike with survivor, claiming amnesiac D1 is a terrible strategy, especially if it’s fake, because you’ll be expected to remember townie as soon as one dies, which will probably be N1. For a real amnesiac, this might lash them to a sinking ship, and a fake amnesiac will be immediately exposed. I hardly ever see anyone claim survivor on the stand because nobody believes a survivor who doesn’t claim D1, but people claim amne on the stand all the time to buy themselves more time. Hell, I’ve claimed survivor as mayor and survived to the end of the game just to reveal in a 1v1 multiple times. It’s my go-to mayor strategy because of how fun it is to pull off. Whenever I see someone claim amne as town, I will tell them to remember a town role immediately or get killed. It doesn’t matter if the only dead townie is medium, confirming their role and having a confirmed townie is more important than whatever the role’s ability is.

[@ninenineninenine407]

I think the fix is to give it PM-style abilities to where it can help and hurt factions. Gives more incentive to kill it but also more incentive to get it on your side. Also gives the player more stuff to do, and gives fake claim possibility. Whenever I play as survivor I usually act like jester and cause chaos even though it's less likely to get me the win, and I think giving survivor more of that side of gameplay would be interesting.

[@immortalaxolotl]

Honestly, maybe the solution is just to have survivor kind of like pestilence where you can't actually roll it, you can only get it if you are a GA and your target dies.

[@Moleoflands]

Or have Exe become a surv if their target dies

[@airmanon7213]

​@@Moleoflands Right now, Exe becomes Jester if their target dies.

[@tarquinioprisco8459]

@@airmanon7213 which is way better and has way more sense

[@artsyvids2563]

I find a little extra success by complaining about my role at the start, then if juggs/arso/ww are voted out, saying i now feel safer saying I'm surv, which does my sense really

[@suzytalks4778]

I usually side town whenever I play surv tbh and I always either vote inno in case of actual reasonable town role claim (such as jailor, mayor, transporter, escort, medium, vet, lo, spy, or a tp claim) or if I suspect that someone is a jester, but I am willing to guilty sus claims that come off as mafia, coven, or nk like openly claiming vigi (unless if said vigi is actually confirmed), sheriff claims (which are usually fake and arguably the easiest role to actually fake claim as), psychic claims (unless if the psychic claim is actually being aggressive and playing like an actual town role such as asking for people in their visions for roles and such), etc. Alternatively, survs should try fake claiming like claiming TK, psychic, sheriff, or some other town role and try to vote with majority.

[@Its.LunaGames]

Alright, I have been summoned. Adagia you mentioned survivors I'm here now (Been watching for a bit now, just don't comment much) I've played quite a few survivor games (Roughly 30 atp) and I'm currently working on a mini-experiment where I'm playing 100 surv games & documenting the results of each game. Excited to watch the video!

[@Heeruza]

I’m sorry that sounds SO boring playing 100 surv games , but hey if it’s for science it’s worth it.

[@Its.LunaGames]

@@Heeruza Honestly not the worst, I can just chat with people in whispers for the majority of the game

[@airmanon7213]

Good luck!

[@ZaTrapu]

How to win as surv: roll GA and wait F situations where you target die and it's out of your control

[@nick335online]

whenever I am surv, I find it kind of fun in a more chaotic way for my playstyle, as I claim a TI role, favorite being phy, and either try scum reading evils to have town trust me, and try to botch it to have evils question if I am a bad townie or purposely evil, granted this playstyle doesn't work silver and below I think

[@nonse121]

Imagine survs win condition is surviving till the end of the game, unless, when u get attacked but your vest saves you, you recognize the faction of the attacker and you need to team with all people against them?

[@kromb5952]

1.Reason i love kingmakers 2.Reason important for survivor. he will try hide role for survive. 3.Reason survivor most pleasant role . You can try build a team for survive. You can work with everyone. 4.Reason. Yes you can if you play smart.

[@atmosdwagon4656]

If I were to try and mount a defense for Survivor to work through the matter...(don't judge until you read to the end) 1) Of Kingmakers and madmen. Most situations in which a survivor becomes a kingmaker would have ended in a draw otherwise...and nobody likes draws. Kingmaking is a function of the logic of how social deception games work more than anything. That said, the one place where "kingmaking" is inexcusable is when a survivor bails out a clear loser for their bad play and gives them a win they didn't deserve. (which isn't kingmaking, but spoiling) And no, that does not describe all 1vs1 scenarios with a survivor mediating either. Consider two cases: Case a) Mafioso vs Doctor in a 1vs1 with a survivor. Town clearly lost here, but if the Survivor sides with the doctor to lynch the mafioso, then all that occurred is that mafia was denied a win they earned. b) Jailor (with no exes) vs Mafioso with a Survivor picking the winner. A genuine kingmaker scenario that otherwise would have ended in a Draw. I really don't care all that much about who wins in that case either way since someone is always going to be disappointed or salty at the end of the game regardless of who the survivor picks (especially if they abstain and force a draw; people hate kingmakers right up until it gives them a fleeting chance to win. I've read more than enough post-game chat to know this.) ii) Having a role that creates easy claim space for basically any role in the game is not necessarily a bad thing. Having weak claims available is a function of weak roles and nothing specific to survivor. Sheriff was an incredibly weak role and the original whipping boy of ToS that you lynched when the leads ran dry back before survivors existed. (browser game days) Survivor also uniquely creates fake claim space for power town roles (Mayor and Jailor especially) because of its true neutrality. (though this can also backfire spectacularly; but risk is part of fake claiming, period) VERDICT: Survivor would need a new ability to be worth including going forward and for the single biggest argument I can make against them: They are INCREDIBLY BORING TO PLAY. Optimal survivor play is scumreading for voting blocs and sitting on your ass at night, hoping evils don't accidentally kill you...or for the game to forestall enough that you get lynched "just to be sure". Replacing them with another true neutral role would be tricky, but I still think there's value in having at least one such role in the game because of the unique claimspace it creates. (even if it is weak claimspace)

[@ass-master-deluxe]

1. survivors are revealed to the town on day 10 like a mayor would with their role displayed next to their name 2. survivors cannot vote on days when the game would normally end in an autowin without them.

[@xylo2051]

1. that sounds so pointless, yk how rare it is for the game to make it to day 10? let alone a surv make it to day 10? 2. so just getting rid of the kingmaking part making it even less important? atp when i role surv i might just claim and watch a yt video cuz what else could i do?

[@ass-master-deluxe]

@@xylo2051 it gives town a certain way to prove surv claims. getting to day 10 is supposed to be hard for a survivor so they need to rely on chat play to get there. once the kingmaker ability is semi-removed from survivor, it makes it completely useless to town so it promotes fake claiming town roles and will change up the meta in an interesting way. nks will be more wary of claiming surv because it becomes a true neutral in the endgame and town will have a greater distaste towards the role. all in all, this will make surv require more skill and manipulation to win rather than some bitch ass ww claiming surv d1 and watching a "yt video cuz what else could i do?"

[@xylo2051]

@@ass-master-deluxe the endgame is day 6-8 ???? Again yk how RARE it is for a game to go to day 10. Nk’s will still claim surv because there’s no reason not to??? And if you take away the king making ability than surv is POINTLESSS and even less entertaining to play

[@briansouthparkstudio1357]

being a jest and claiming surv can also be a easy win though sometimes leads to death just because of point two

[@KnightAngelGN]

A part of me LOVES surv, a true neutral role that goes with the flow, I guess I like it because I can mess up with people freely and have the excuse that I don't give a damn about who am I talking to, if I die I was only a surv, if I make someone die, well.. Good for me, Im just a surv and your town is dumb. More over me liking the role and having a Bias, just like how much I laugh when doing the town's exe, yeah the role is just not healthy.

[@QWxiZX]

1. I like kingmakers, and that's fun for me. When im not sure - i'm asking for a joke from both factions and i'm choosing which if funnier, but in the most of the games - i find a ally from the middle of the game, or someone was edgy/pushing me, so i choose to hang them. 2. Don't claim survivor. Claim psy, claim sheriff, don't claim survivor. Why would you claim survivor, that's dumb, you will be hanged. 3. I like playing as surv, push people to make game faster, i love to constantly try to scumread people and not hang them, but make them my allies! That's very fun for me. 4. That's not happening with me. You're saying like survivor have a certain problems, but it's subjective. Surivior - ony of my favorite roles for being chatty, having a choose and a unique gameplay.

[@justingerry97]

Honestly the one thing that I would say would help surv is if it had something akin to vet, just basic defense, basic attack and hits one person who visits that night (like the ambusher ability) or only attacks when they are attacked.

[@boredfangerrude8759]

The thing is, a kingmaker is actually not a bad thing, the issue is just its been poorly executed. Honestly, back in the day, it was a blessing to have surv around as it gave you something to claim when you're WW or arso and if you can win them over, it can give you a chance at winning when your evil team has had nothing but bad luck all game. Town doesn't need a lot of luck to win, they get too much information so victory is pretty easy for them but it feels bad when you lose because you feel entitled to winning as town but the surv sides with the evil team. But that also applies to evil teams like mafia in which, everything is stacked against you to a rather unfair degree and when surv sides with town which, they usually do, it becomes just another thing against you and makes you resent them and the role. I'm not sure if Surv can be saved, maybe make it into its own neutral faction but at one point, it did make the game far more fair between mafia and town.

[@sanga1380]

Thanks for making this Ada, I usually just talk with people and make friends when I role surv. I stop playing the game as surv and start playing it as me. I’m just talking to people maybe throwing in some random whispers.

[@rudybomba2]

Easy fix to make Survivor role more dimensional: Survivors wins alone! When game is ending, if there is another Survivor fake claiming, you both lose. Now claiming Surv D1 is risky, Survs are rewarded in being aggressive. Can also equalize by reducing number of vests and allowing you to know how many visitors you had when you were attacked while vested (or know one/all attacker's identity)

[@Toombe]

Thanks for shouting out my boy Persephone

[@TabbuEme]

I like to let the losing party win as Surv, DO THE IMPOSSIBLE SEE THE INVISIBLE ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWAH

[@KiraAPK]

The problem is how a bulletproof best can save you from a head injury but not from a vampire bite

[@Adagia]

It does shield from vamp bites though. You only get converted if you don’t vest.

[@KiraAPK]

@@Adagia but I- What did i- *My life is a lie*

[@KiraAPK]

I could have SWORN vamp bites go through vests Wow, I know disguiser mechanics better than surv mechanics

[@Adagia]

@@KiraAPK I’m sorry to give you this shocking revelation ahaha

[@KiraAPK]

@@Adagia I HAVE FAILED MY ONE PURPOSE IN THE STEAM FORUMS D:

[@duckgamer7095]

I don't like killing Survivors, but at the same time you have to consider that they might be evil. Which is why, if nobody else asks, I will always bug a Survivor as Spy, because if they get attacked, the message that appears is unique to Survivor (and Bodyguard, but if a Bodyguard vests and gets attacked they would also need to be confirmed) - as such, you can actually confirm a Survivor this way

[@rockyclouds2]

My way of playing survivor consists of the following stages: Stage 1: Ah heck im survivor. Stage 2: DONT CLAIM DONT CLAIM DONT CLAIM DONT CLAIM DONT CL Stage 3: have I been checked or whispered for my role? If not continue Stage 2, if yes explain why I haven't claimed survivor yet. Stage 4: KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT KEEP YOU MOUTH SHUT KEEP YOUR MOU All while I'm voting with any dog piles, rarely vesting. End game stage: claim out loud hey I'm survivor, first faction to whisper me/in majority I'm siding with! Good luck! (Basically turn it into who has majority/who whispers first). It's aggressive yes, works? Sometimes. But it makes it more fun atleast! It keeps my stress high, and removes one way I'll be yeeted skeedeted from the game and into dead chat.

[@Kukilet]

I recently played an interesting surv game. I was witched N1, and someone wispered me asking if anything happened to me. I said I was witched, he was tracker and saw the visit. We voted out CL, his last words confirmed me. So I was confirmed surv, but vanpires were attacking me every night, so I started agrresive voting, beacouse I didn't want to be converted. One person claimed BG and said he would protect me if I side town. I made the deal, and wasn't attacked anymore. The "bg" turned out vamp, and vampires won. I won with them as surv.

[@_Lazarus_]

Btw fakeclaiming psychic as surv gives you plot armor and you win 90% of your games. I checked it

[@olivialambert4124]

I felt a little sad about the removal of Surv for ToS2 as I like the role. Getting to play whilst having nobody to disappoint and no big responsibility is nice. But you make an excellent case for why Survivor is simply a poor choice for ToS and why it shouldn't exist. I'm no longer upset about the removal.

[@AmGaming-qd8vo]

As someone who always fakeclaims as pirate and never sides as town, I can enjoy playing an evil Survivor claim. I agree with most points in this video, however while half of the town cannot be (reliably) claimed by survivor, there are roles that are undeniably amazing for a survivor fake claim. Psychic is easily a perfect survivor fake claim. They do not visit, can be "confirmed" by invest, and if an evil attacks you and you live, your survivor claim may hold a bit of water if you claim late... and all towns are dead. Retri, Medium, and Sheriff can also be claimed and believed, even though Investigators would see through them. I see survivor more as a mayor-like role, where you wanna try to control the day in a way you wont get killed at night. Then again my favorite role is Jester, so my whole opinion may just be invalid. (Plus, Survivor is the closest thing to a Exe/Pirate who has already won, and can just cause chaos as they please)

[@Game-Grimoire]

Ngl, playing survivor feels like playing spectator mode and whether you win or lose is pretty much down to a coin flip, but either way its incredibly unsatisfying

[@Kirby-vd7hw]

I have never claimed survivor as survivor, but I have definitely fake-claimed all TI roles, arsonist, and some other neutral roles, a lot of times. I disagree that survivor is boring as hell, as long as you make it fun.

[@YanYanicantbelievethistakenffs]

My go to sometimes is "Im surv. Ill vote whoever has the most votes. I always guilty." Then get immediatly attacked, it works for not getting linched fast tho. Otherwise i do the "i am surv ill side to whoever speaks next" then follow that. Or dont claim surv and claim any other role.

[@ethanvon222]

overall as survivor I just go after anyone who exists and pisses me off, and I almost never get pushed. Also I fakeclaim psychic all the time or just fakeclaim amne

[@genesisosuna]

3:03 unless you're shadowbeatz And yeah I had watched the video that you referenced from shadow a while ago and I know you were Inkling, he pointed it out at the end of that game I'm pretty sure

[@aptokro3005]

Survivor New Ability Idea You may choose someone during day once. You become their alignment. (Survivor Needs To Have The Alignment Of The Person To Win Along With Surviving Until The End)

[@asonofliberty3662]

Eh 99% of the time why not just remember town? Gives town 1 free confirm.

[@aptokro3005]

@@asonofliberty3662 makes sense but you will also need town to win so you want to wait and not reveal until you are sure of the good team. Now that i look at it again this seems like more of a tos 2 thing since most confirmed townies are powerful and don't want to reveal. Would be an ok way to bring the old amnesiac

[@galactick3816]

The main issues with survivor is the lack of ability to prove yourself as surv. Other neutral roles have their ways (amne literally screams what role they remembered, GA's protection shows up for everyone) only surv can hope that all the coven and maf investigators find them immediately, as well as town confirms them. but then there's the neutral role - surv can win with anyone so they will naturally switch sides as needed and will try to end the game quickly. I thinit would be best to make survivor not be able to spawn into the game but keep the GA mechanic, and maybe add a rule that if amne doesn't remember a role by certain day (Day 6 seems good IMO) they turn into surv - which again would be anounced as if they were remembering a role. Possible fix would be to change the vest into "hide at other player's house" ability where the player in question would be notified theat a surv hid at their place. Could work the same and give basic defense, or the surv would get killed if the target they hid at was attacked, but if someone tried to attack them dirrectly it would do nothing. That way survs would have a way to confirm themselves and wouldn't be forced to be so passive since the other factions would be able to trust that they are actually a surv.

[@xylo2051]

defeats the point of surv. if you can easily confirm yourself then its a free win. that would be less fun as youre almost guaranteed to win as long as youre smart??? its towns own fault if they fail to lynch a fake surv and sometimes is the crucial part of an NK, maf or coven win. survs not being like the rest of the confirmable Nb's is GOOD and separates that role instead of it just being a reskin or a worse version.

[@galactick3816]

@@xylo2051 I never said that it should reveal the identity of the surv only a message along the lines of "Survivor has hidden at your house" would show up. Faking surv can still be done and it would actually force evils to come up with fake claims. Or the only way they can be confirmed would be if a visiting role tried to visit the person who they were hiding at - get normal results + "You found traces of survior hiding here." Either way in its current state survior is shitty role because it's so easy to fakeclaim due to it not being able to confirm itself in any way.

[@iwersonsch5131]

actually here's a completely half-baked idea that I just came up with on the spot. Might be completely OP or useless or toxic or whatever - Up to 4 times in a game, a Survivor can visit someone else - The player you visited will know they were visited by a Survivor - If someone attacks that player's home, you die. If someone attacks your home, you don't die but you will know that someone tried to attack you - You don't have any bulletproof vests - A GA turned Surv can't visit

[@iwersonsch5131]

reasoning behind it - gives you a way to confirm yourself, and forces evils to claim something better (it's almost impossible to say you went to dead people, unless you're exe!) - gives you agency at night beyond just "will i be attacked?" - incentivizes you to build trust with a player during the game, setting up an expectation for who would win the kingmaking in the end, and making the kingmaking feel more fair that way

[@meleamendez6221]

Soo you basically have a sleep over at someone's home

[@iwersonsch5131]

@@meleamendez6221 Yes, as a survivor who seeks to hide from danger.

[@TheRevivist]

Surv claims are iffy. They can be fun but also not fun. I once claimed Surv as Veteran. I made it quite convincing by saying things like "TIs check me" "I'm voting majority idc who wins." So much so, I even guiltied town members. The goal here was to save my alerts till end game and kill all the evils. It's a rare strategy I use time to time and it doesn't always work. It's so satsifying when it does work tho. I do agree that the role should be removed entirely OR it can be reworked. A rework idea would be you can reveal yourself as survivor for the entire town (just like a Mayor does) but you lose all your vests. So you're at the mercy of any and all killing roles. It sounds far fetched but it's kinda hard not to when the role is complete ass.

[@noahthesk]

rework idea for survivor: if you get attacked you’ll defend yourself by killing whoever attacked you you also will get powerful defense I know this is unbalanced but need to give them something to survive

[@RoderickEtheria]

Play the Survivor as a Jester. You can come out later that you don't want to die.

[@yigitali_kurt1662]

I never claim surv as surv,it gets you killed and now you can actually play the game. I ussualy claim tracker or retri, since you have vests and can afford to be attacked at night. Only bad thing is maf outing you as immune in death note.

[@user-pf6ib1ln1r]

Claimin pb as a surv in a juggernaut game is quaranteed win

[@callmeShore]

This whole video. Yes. YES. YES! I don't have to say anything but you nailed my thoughts EXACTLY! I just troll as SURV. Gotta get some fun.

[@essidus]

Thanks for the video! I always appreciate your game insights

[@thethunderchieftain5464]

Hey,Adagia!There are actually two Town roles you can easily fake claim as Survivor,and that is Psychic and Medium Pyschic is very easy to fake and is also a role that matches the Survivor's investigative results:Survivor/Vampire Hunter/Amnesiac/Medusa/Psychic. A bonus is that you can get tracked at night,and the Tracker will see you going nowhere,thus confirming you,and you can easily prove this way you are not Medusa aswell. Claiming Medium day 1 will usually make you look more legit to the Town,and evils(Mafia atleast) don't usually bother going after Medium claims,because they are weak claims that can get lynched during the day or they are useless roles if every dead player leaves. Also,if watching Pipe taught me one thing,that is how to make fake dead chat. :P

[@YayapLives]

While it wouldn't fix everything, an interesting 'fix' would be to make it so that no matter how survivor votes they actually always vote guilty. They're still be king making in terms of who gets voted up, but they wouldn't be able to hide as passively as normal, evils would have to commit more to the claim, and jesters would appreciate it :p

[@dumbprotogen4487]

well, how im said in one game [2] Protogen : fake claim as surv die [2] Protogen : tell you surv die [2] Protogen : cmoooon You have died!

[@Ranluinar]

I very rarely claim surv as surv day 1. I also tend to play a teeny tiny bit aggressive.. and push votes away from me. Believe it or not, it tends to be more believable to come out and say "Okay. I was faking. I'm surv." after being caught as fake.. and I have lived from having to do so more often than I have died from it But what I'm hearing you say is that.. Survivor itself is actually not the problem. It's Kingmaker situations (which involve more than survivors), the community always pushing towards metas, lack of creative/critical thinking from players, and that people are way too happy to fake claim surv and expect to get off the hook for claiming it While most all of these problems have some roots that run under the survivor role. Survivor itself doesn't sound like the problem in this.. Evils are also taking to killing survivors (even 100% known survivors) simply to be rid of them for the lols, or even to be toxic.. let alone because of kingmakers situations. I think the real meta (Most effective tactic available) has actually already switched from being claiming surv day 1 to basically any other method and there are just a LOT of people who are slow on the uptake.. primarily because Claiming surv day 1 was such a stupidly easy, braindead, and simple thing to do and it can still lead to a win sometimes even today. So if there's a 10% chance that they'll win doing something while expending zero effort, they'll do that over the 50% chance of winning by giving it all they have. (Chances of winning are definitely just numbers I made up to better show that people will be more prone to take lazy strats.. Especially if at one point that strat was solid for getting them a win) Being real, nothing can be done about the kingmaker situation aside from creating a sort of sudden death system or forcing neutrals to have to pick a side after a while.. Could be done by having a "Town Submits to x" "Survivors follow x" "Killers take over the town" or something to that degree that comes up under certain circumstances.. However the Kingmaker stuff is.. quite honestly an integral part of AA and CAA.. It's an expected thing to happen if one side isn't just completely dominating.. It seems it was entirely within the developers mindset to create these sort of situations to make social networking have some added importance. No leads, hang a surv? Just don't claim surv. If you do, you're at fault if town decides you need to go, if you do decide to do it, keep those votes away from you by any means necessary because you've opted to mediate for your life on a daily basis from that point onward.. Really wish the hissy fits and tantrums would stop when people get lynched because of it. Have seen people stay in matches just to cuss someone out for lynching a surv claim.. And this person in particular wasn't even a survivor, they were godfather.. I guess they just wanted to maintain the status quo of claiming survivor day 1 as being a working strat. Survivor is boring to play because people expect to play it in its current known meta.. Otherwise, you can pretend to be whatever you want. Yeah, there's some things that if you get called out for doing wrong, you'll probably get lynched.. Everyone assumes you're only able to claim psychic as a survivor (Which does work well).. You can claim just about anything as one though.. One thing I don't recommend is to claim Mayor during the day, you'll probably be asked to reveal.. You just have to keep rolling with the punches and playing the game.. You can't simply just lay down and give up for one thing not having gone your way.. Being called out as fake, doesn't necessarily have to lead to death, especially if you can convince others there's better targets for lynching. Something to note: Metas are constantly shifting and changing things, especially in a game like this.. a new strategy may be discovered/dug up from the past and work exceedingly well and then be countered by the next day and do exceedingly poorly. The way a true meta may look isn't a simple strong standing strategy that works for every single lobby.. It's a changing and rotating format and there's so many variables to take into account for it in a social deduction game, that most don't even bother to try and keep track of it and often instead opt to take on the "Easiest effective tactics" as opposed to the "Most effective tactics" That's why the day 1 survivor claim has been such a strong staple for a very long time, because it's simply put, the easiest to do as survivor (Or evils), requires no work, and has an okay chance to work. It also has MORE effectiveness as an evil (evils usually have extra survivability and/or a faction to help you) which is why you often see everyone opt to lynch them out ASAP. What I strongly dislike about the day 1 surv claim strategy is that it removes control away from the player by a large degree, you're placing your chances of making it through the day in the hands of other players, while you actually have a stronger chance of surviving over most other roles at night(4 vests can help you a lot, but do nothing if you get put to the stand). It's why I won't claim surv as surv day 1 ever. At least definitely not as survivor.. Maybe as jailor or mayor..

[@jurrassicjonas3332]

Agreed Fake claiming when you are survivor is not only more fun but also a viable strategy if not the optimal strategy. Claiming to be survivor later in the game isn't as bad as people think it is. Especially if you are working with a faction that needs the extra voting power and cannot risk voting you out.

[@Shurukkah.]

Remove surv as a base class and give GA turned surv a single vest. Now to claim surv you gotta fake GA first.

[@daweird1z]

I almost won as a BG claim with mayor in game because I had claimed TP and not bg so town almost let me go but then I claimed bg who was chaining instead of on mayor and got lynched

[@Justin-T]

I'd claim Exe and say a random number is my target, usually they'd leave me alone or vote me anyways

[@duo1666]

Survivor exists almost purely to have something pretty much anyone can easily claim and thats that. Targeting an unknown survivor is almost never the best play to make, but its also never a bad play as any faction, as they are confirmed not to be town anyway. Jailor exes a surv? Well, they confirmed it was surv for information, and didnt lose their other 2 exes. Sure, jailing literally anyone else and possibly getting an evil exe out of it would be much better, but the surv definitely isnt town (or if it is a town role, it will be easily confirmable next day, such as mayor.), so there is no risk involved.

[@lynxie27]

A role that just wants to live as wincon is fine, but it needs more abilities than to copy the basic defense a neutral killer already has every night. Alchemist in throne of lies has infinite heals, 2 attacks per game and is a better role. The heals help confirm as a townie role, and the kills can be used to help evils win faster.

[@ominousflames14]

I would want to hang all survivor claims as town. Not only is it lazy for evils to choose, but most of the time survivor feels obligated to side with evils in the end, because they are "only alive" cause said faction knows they are survivor and won't kill him. Though there is the occasional backstab, 99% of the time a survivor will side with anything BUT town, usually the evil faction or a neutral killing whom they feel sorry for.

[@tntcraze8157]

If i play surv. I dont just claim surv. I am aggressive as hel. By that. I push. I try to get people out. I never side anyone. I never die. Somehow. Either that or i fakeclaim ret, med, psy, or something like that. My playstyle of being a surv is much funner than just well doing nothing.

[@Willdroyd]

i always try to fake claim survivor, atleast i fake claim Tp and say i self healed and i try to be aggressive, because i always wanna play Town of Salem not Watch KZbin Simulator

[@ShugoAWay]

1 is a good thing usually it means both sides had skill 2 then hang the surv claims if you don't trust em 3 not a real problem just a skill issue 4 Then be aggressive

[@lunapain3449]

I completely agree, literally almost every game you join has an evil role claiming surv d1 and it’s boring as hell

[@boevoikrikun]

There is nothing wrong with survivor. All the problem is the community cliches. Only actual problem with the role for me - it's always very annoying to lose to an evils fakeclaiming surv. Therefore I always attack surv claims when I have powerful attack. Ironically, I never killed an actual survivor within last several months. When I roll surv i play as if I'm NE or NK without an ability to kill. I always fakeclaim and try to look as townie as possible. If I'm attacked - I defend myself by words in chat. If town doesn't believe me - bad luck, I would have been lynched if I was NK. It can be fun to play surv if you don't put you in the frames the community wants you. Also, a surv is only annoying when he's like "I'm staying neutral doing nothing" "I'm not voting because I'm a surv" "I'm abstaining because I'm a surv" Nobody likes players that do nothing, and survs like these just blatantly cry "LOOK AT ME IM DOING NOTHING LEAVE ME ALONE". And actually there is a way to solve the "Survivor problem" and it's big ToS content creators. They have a surprisingly big influence on the meta of All Any. For example, when Pipetron made a video when he fakeclaimed GA for a DC'd target as an NK, literally every All Any game for the next month featured a "GA for a DC'd / dead N1 target" claim. Shadow Dior promoted alternate ways of playing surv, basically banning claiming survivor in his lobbies. It would be good for the game if other content creators showed the community the fun non conventional ways of playing an active survivor, breaking the current community frames and showing more fun ways to play the game. Especially Pipetron as people often copycat him in All Any lobbies.

[@Darkpq1742]

Golden Rules of Survivor (Imo): *NEVER. claim day 1. If you do you deserve to die because thats literaly the evil meta in Aa/Caa modes. (Like comon what did you expect? Arso paranoia not kicking in when game is slow? Evils thinking you are Mayor/Ww? comon you play the game and you know how the comunity thinks..So play around that! and remember AMNIES WILL ALWAYS GUILTY YOU IF YOU CLAIM SURV. because if amne remembers surv THATS A FREE WIN.) *Side a Faction early in the game. (Decide if you are only gonna go for a surv/Neutrals only win, Mafia or Town, If that factions thinks you are loyal to them you are more likely to be defended by them. Ofcourse if you know how to scum read that evil in the first place..DONT CLAIM SURV AGUIN. claiming surv activates the instinc of paranoya of betreyal) *If "Invest" Ig WHISPER them to confirm yourselfe. That way town will be less spectical (If you are in Caa be mindfull people could think ur dusa..Be carefull and try to be seem USEFUL) * Use a lot of Whisper manipulation, Dont be Anoying, Have good Charisma but dont be those players like "oh NOooO im sorry :(" thats makes u a literal target for cold hearted people. *Know your place. Actually risk to do some plays for the faction u are going to side..If they like you or they think you are carrying them you are basically a guaranty ally you will be safe from them. *Dont stay silent. *NE and NB are your friends. Neutrals tends to help Neutrals out when they seems trust worthy. Use the Other player trust for your survival. *Dont use the Vest early game. Use them Late game/Mid game. If you die like N1-3 thats fine you are not wasting your time.. But whats the point if you survive lets say N6 aguints a Desperate mafioso/Pois who needs a Kill and who better than the surv claim? Because everyone knows SURVS ALWAYS WASTES THEIR VEST. Think like If you have the Veteran role and not like a Comon bird. *The later the game the more powerfull you are, But you also want to END THE GAME AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. (Depends a lot on the lobby and the faction YOU want to side.) For me Survivor is the LITERAL easy-est Role in the game apart from Jester, If you lose it means you blundered somewhere or just bad luck..Mainly skill issue do. AND DO MATH AGUINTS VAMPIRE GAMES FR. Dont waste a Nigth when you think vamps could convert you when they are literaly in cooldown.

[@G.Aaron.Fisher]

There is actually relatively simple fix to the role that checks almost all the boxes. Make survivors spawn in at 25% of their current rate. This would reduce the credibility of any survivor claim so dramatically that not even survivors would be incentivized to claim surv anymore. The only bad thing I have to say about this solution is that it's a bit of a cop-out since it's half fixing and half deleting the role.

[@G.Aaron.Fisher]

For the record, I really like the Survivor playstyle in other games. In Throne of Lies, the survivor role is called Alchemist, and it actually has limited killing power. In exchange for only having two vests, it also has the ability to attack twice in a game. While Alchemist still plays kingmaker, it's in a much more proactive way. They're incentivized to figure out everyone's role, and coordinate strikes to end the game quickly and decisively.

[@nikifor69]

REALLY unpopular opinion, but I do like Surv for its passive gameplay. I don't play ToS so often but when I do I like chilling and being passive as surv without all these nervous fakeclaimings as evil or figuring out who is who as a townie. I was lucky enough to get into not-so-aggressive lobbies who even let me do so (I was never hung as surv truly an achievement lmao). I completely understand all these problems around survs but I still like the opportunity to chill a bit between usual games

[@AVRose47]

I really think being aggressive should make more sense to people. The whole point is to survive to the end, so why wouldn't you want to try and make the game end as quickly as possible?

[@dr.chalmers7923]

I think a cool rework would be to keep the goal but change the role. REWORK: Survivor -> Incarnate Goal: Live to see a quiet town. (AKA the game ends) Faction: Neutral (Benign) Defense: Basic for one attack (like witch) Attack: none Description: A Moon God avatar who desires a sleepy town will move the stars to make that happen. Abilities: During the Day, before voting phase begins, the Incarnate may reverse time to the previous Day’s end. - This revives & reveals all players killed from the original Night (the night that was reversed), and removes all effects added from the reversed night (and vise-versa). I believe this will allow players to make more informed decisions, effectively ending the game prematurely. It may also be frustrating to play against, but it still allows the Incarnate to make alliances, and to be ruthless like a pirate in order to end the game.

[@mostlymadd248]

Yeah it might be frustrating to play against so if this get put in the game the role would probably only get to use that ability once or twice

[@aeoniangears372]

If Surv is removed, what do we do with GA? Have them become Amne? "The trauma of losing my charge has destroyed me. I don't even know who I am anymore" I guess we could keep Surv as something just for GA to become when their target dies, but then there's the problem of achievements.

[@tarquinioprisco8459]

I completely disagree 1) I don't care about the existance of kingmakers, I like being one, I like begging for my wins when I'm not, it's part of the roleplay in a roleplaying game 2 and 3) the fact that some people play the "surv claim day 1" hoping the town will always have leads and not hang the surv claim is such a risky and boring playstyle that if you get lynched you kinda deserved it, you were handed the role that can claim anything, you are a jester with bulletproof vests and you claim your role??? you are asking for town to lynch you. 4) yeah, evils are gonna attack you and out you to town, that's why you gotta play smart and let evil know you are not a threat, not by telling them directly but by claiming a weak town role like sheriff, psy or med, posting daily so that you are not the sussiest person around to be the one lynched but sus enough so that evils never attacks you maybe an invest will check you and you may claim survivor then and in case you mess up you have vests you can be everyone's friend or everyone's enemy, topple factions, form allegiances, break them, you are a beast, you are the survivor also, if you removed survs you are making evils' life way more difficult by removing the easiest (but riskiest) role they could be claiming survs having no info is a weakness for survs but a strenght for anyone claiming to be surv, it's like a mayor with no reveal button, you don't really need to keep a will

[@VagueCastle649]

How does removing survs make evils' life more difficult? If anything, it encourages evils to make better claims rather than default to "d1 surv here".

[@tarquinioprisco8459]

@@VagueCastle649 it makes their life more difficult because they have one less option, the one where you can't mess up your will it encourages them to make better claims because you gave them no other choice

[@VagueCastle649]

@@tarquinioprisco8459 I don't see the issue here. If it forces evils to be less LAZY about their claims, then all is well and removing surv is an overall good choice. Also, I immensely dislike kingmakers. All the effort in the world to win a close match amounts to nothing when the surv sides with the opponent who did nothing all game. All because the surv is friends irl with the opponent.

[@tarquinioprisco8459]

@@VagueCastle649 if someone is friend irl with someone else their role is not the problem anyway, surv is a role that even if it's not town, town doesn't necesserely want dead it adds a layer of complexity all by himself if you remove it you either have more stale gameplay were alleances between factions are less likely, or you need to find a more complex mechanically speaking substitute the fact that, as an evil, it would be way easier to simply never trust someone who is not in your faction makes the game more linear, so more boring you are removing the least treathening to town (and everyone for that matter) not town role, the consequences would be enormous also, surv is not easy to win nor a garantueed loss because of the existance of arso, the other side of the coin surv is a pretty well balanced role

[@VagueCastle649]

@@tarquinioprisco8459 The amount of complexity surv brings is the town deciding to keep them alive or not. The pirate is essentially a better survivor and more often, brings the complexity you claim is in survivor. Because pirate has more value to any faction since they can offer more than a simple extra vote, and can very easily confirm themselves. Also the friend bit was just an example Would you really hinge all of your efforts to win a close game on a kingmaker who has an extremely high chance of giving a pity win to the "afk until day 5" sk? That's one of the reasons why tis has only two factions (BMG even makes it a point that "King Maker positions oftentimes led to unfun game outcomes").

[@killerbean6254]

I usually play survivor like an exe who’s already won. Cause some chaos, have some fun. Push on the most dumbass basis possible.

[@Kronosfobi]

For a month I used WW, Arso and Jailor scrolls just to kill survivor claims. Because majority of the time, Survivors side evils or outright fake. Which I found it to be so annoying I had to hunt down all PB, Surv and any Neutral claims day 1 (with the exception of GA for obvious reasons)

[@mcbeaty3971]

Kill all neutrals, stop sparing GAs

[@AP-xr2yi]

Survivor is only distrusted because evils like GF (most likely mafia to claim surv), all NK and PB will/have claimed it and made it untrustworthy as it's a lazy claim for evils to get a free win. I think it's problem is in the defense of those claiming it. As the mentioned roles all have basic defense. I believe looking at things more realistically might help a bit. GF should have basic defense, strong attack, meaning if GF attacks Arso then Arso should go down as they rightfully should have a basic defense with the unstoppable attack. If GF attacked SK then they get the immune message as I believe SK should be stronger than a GF hence SK should have a strong attack and defense. Of cause if SK has a strong attack then WW needs a stronger defense as well as Jugg most likely both of which should take out SK. PB should still have basic defense. In other words: Arso falls to GF who falls to SK who falls to WW/Jugg (survivor should be included here limiting the evils claiming it) and Pest takes out all.

[@PuddleOfCats]

Survivor being boring has lead me to claim some incredibly bs role I can't prove and if I win, yay, if not? lamo hope I caused some chaos