The synthesizer scam | How they reel you to take your money

[@EspenKraft]

"The illusion has become real, and the more real it becomes, the more they want it". - Gordon Gecko Synth manufacturers think you're a sucker. Why sell a synth for $1200 when the guy is willing to pay $5200? This is what the synth manufacturers count on when they set out to sell you their new flagship synth. Same for analog or digital synths. It doesn't matter. As long as the potential customer sees the synth as "High End", the illusion has become real and he will pay up. Same as in the Audio Hi-fi world where Hi-fi Audio manufacturers still suckers people into believing that a speaker cable costing $1000 per meter is better than the lamp wire you get for $1 per meter. Ohm's law doesn't apply to them. They think. Analog synths have usually been associated with a higher cost due to electronics inside, but new "analog" synths are in fact more digital than ever. Discrete components are not what makes up analog synths any more. Now it's all surface mounted chips and CPU's are running things. Everything is under OS control. To sucker you even more some manufacturers (of "analog synths") have a "Vintage Knob" on their synth. They do this to hide the fact that their so called "analog oscillators" are actually under so much digital control that they start to PHASE. To undo the phasing they have to separate the pitches of the oscillators, hence a "Vintage Knob". If they'd made the oscillators less clinically (truly analog) stable, this wouldn't even be necessary. It would cost more though and their revenue would suffer. They don't want that. They want to be fat and full, on your expense. Why sell a synth for $1200 when a guy is willing to pay $5200? All of the synths in this video are capable of sounding very good. As are the emulations of them in software form. In fact, they've become identical heard in a mix. The question is if you're willing to pay thousands of dollars more just to sit there at night with your pretty, but empty shell of a synth? If your answer is yes, then have fun. The synth manufacturers thank you. They even say so, in the manual. Find my music here: Bandcamp: espenkraft.bandcamp.com/

[@spencerscott2044]

Sounds like someone has never heard the names Doug Curtis or Dave Rossum before. Just stop. You keep making a fool of yourself cosplaying as an engineer. This sounds like someone trying to talk about hacking on NCIS with how much conflation you are doing with your lack of understanding of the difference between ICs, discrete designs, though hole, and SMD. You need to realize just how insane you are.

[@dmitribovski1292]

Expressive E Osmose?

[@bangmateo7481]

You forgot Waldorf Quantum and Iridium the epitome of VST in a box.

[@paleolitik9834]

I use both hardware and software voice. The two are complementary, the former for feeling and pleasure, the latter for creative amplitude and freedom. Rare are the pseudo-musicians on KZbin who produce something decent from their material. More often than not, they're not musicians, artists or creative people, but simply collectors devoid of any talent. More often than not, they're narcissists, incapable of communicating anything about their “art”, which they lack, and of which they're totally devoid. Neurosis, ego, but above all, easy money, all the more so since algorithmic community formulas based on commitment systematically over-value the most acculturated, the most follower-like, the most addicted, the most ignorant, the most liberticidal individuals. So, losers choose losers, stooges choose stooges like Leader, in all fields and on all the commercial networks we mistakenly call “social”. Most youtubers are swindlers, in the sense that they're impostors. This is very visible in electro music. The more talented a musician is, the less chance he has of breaking through from scratch.

[@EspenKraft]

@@spencerscott2044 Someone hurt you bad when you were a kid right? Why so upset man? I'm a nobody KZbinr talking about something as trivial as a synth. We're not taking blood cancer here.

[@rbos36]

Good video. Spend less on synths, spend more on escorts. Point taken.

[@Lordxfx]

: ))))

[@RudyAdrian]

FORD Escorts, I hope :)

[@rbos36]

@@RudyAdrian I hear those have a smooth ride.

[@hakonsoreide]

That is indeed the point, as long as you also have enough in your savings account for the taxidermy of your mother-in-law.

[@rbos36]

@@hakonsoreide 🤣

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

I use both Behringer and Sequential synths. I don’t use Behringer synths live. This video doesn’t address the needs of live keyboard players: We need nice keyboard actions, solid build quality, reliability, no menu diving and fast boot up times as well as great sound quality. Nord and Sequential are expensive but offer what live players need, hence they’re on stages all over the world. Many expensive synths are aimed at live players.

[@haderlumpi]

Fair point. But honestly, most synth users are playing arps at home and turning some nobs. Players who perform synths on stage are really rare imho. I mean bands have become less and less popular over the years, so naturally keyboarders even more unfortunately 😢

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

@@haderlumpi Agreed, regarding dearth of bands and live players. My point was that perhaps he’s assessing synths without considering their core market: professional musicians.

[@EspenKraft]

I'm a professional musician. I play live too.

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

@@EspenKraft ok. I respect your point of view but I’ve used a Sequential Prophet 6 and Nord Electro 5 exclusively on pro gigs for 5 years - about 250 gigs. They’re great instruments and they’ve never let me down so I don’t consider them overpriced. I used a Deepmind 12 for a while but the keyboard action is bad. If I considered something exclusively as a studio instrument I might feel differently.

[@LB-pp7pu]

@@EspenKraft Aaah, come on! You played 1 show in 20 years! ahaha

[@spahndirge]

Subscription models for software…now that’s a scam.

[@EdwinDekker71]

Waves update plan 🤪

[@marinedalek]

Fascinating to see someone who regularly drives up the cost of middle-of-the-road retro gear rail against perception-driven pricing with no sense of irony. Just to pick one of the many specious arguments here: I migrated from using solely VST plugins to using mainly hardware "scam synths" for many reasons, not the least of which is the dedicated control surface per synth. However, an unintended benefit is that recreating a sound I recorded on my KARP Odyssey reissue 10 years ago is a hell of a lot easier than even opening a project containing old, unsupported VST instruments. Hardware synths don't vanish into the aether with OS updates, the closure of licensing servers etc. It's the same reason I try to buy music I enjoy on CD rather than rely on my favoured streaming service happening to have the rights to it this week. Components age and wear out, yet the half-life of a virtual instrument is, in my experience, significantly shorter than that of a hardware equivalent. Unfortunately, this video marks a disappointing pivot from the appreciation of old, unloved gear, to poorly-supported outrage bait. Well done, I guess?

[@mitsanut5869]

Excellent, excellent comment.

[@chipchasm]

ya drive up, to half of 80s msrp

[@bobrogue]

Hey, Black Corp here. Jokers? :) Our synths definitely don't cost $6-7000. Currently, our most expensive product is a monster effects processor at $5000. Also they'd be bigger and heavier if they were clones. And we definitely don't think our customers are suckers. We are a small company and I like to think we have a good reputation for taking care of our customers when they have any issues. Mostly, at least.

[@mitchelstephen7536]

They come at night mostly. Mostly. Keep up the good work!

[@bobrogue]

@@mitchelstephen7536 Thank you. I appreciate Espen's videos, but there have been several youtubers in Europe have been mentioning pricing with VAT, etc and whatever upcharges come along with it. You can get actual pricing from our site. Announcing our gear is $2-3000 higher than it actually is turns people off from buying our stuff. It's been a tough enough market this year as it is. Apologies for the prices the work we put into them result in. We do have a sense of humor, and I can definitely be considered a joker, but we are not pricing our products in a way to treat our customers as suckers.

[@Wagoo]

His pricing is way off for pretty much all the synths mentioned in this vid - not sure if he's doing that on purpose as bait or out of ignorance Keep on rocking, Black Corp 🖤

[@bobrogue]

@@smartti1970 none of our synths are $5000. Our upcoming effects processor, Expander MK2 is. I don’t think you’ll find anything like it for that price though. Would love to know about it if you can think of one.

[@michaelgiordano2458]

As he states, I am not Espen Kraft, but I do wonder if where he's located, he gets hit with a large VAT. If you've got a 20% VAT, I presume that would put a $4500 Xerxes closer to the 6 range. But again, I am not Espen Kraft.

[@RapidFlow_Shop]

Also... I ve worked with and for some.small and big synth companies and I can tell you these companies are fighting for their survival year after year. You have just spread a ton of misinformation.

[@Trottelheimer]

Yes. This vid is pure ignorant bs. And the schmuck thinks he's being "edgy cool" and "righteous" or something. Sad.

[@AlainHubert]

In the end, it comes down to what you want and what you're willing/able to pay for it. I bought the Behringer UB-Xa because I wanted the Oberheim polyphonic OB series synths sound and, although it's a fantastic polysynth and an amazing value for money, I quickly sold it because it didn't meet my expectations. I bought the OB-X8 and it does.

[@BeepsAndBeats]

Yes and people who pay thousands of dollars for a digital synth are suckers. That’s the point.

[@sub-jec-tiv]

@@BeepsAndBeatsMany of the synths he’s referring to have analog VCOs, or analog filters (or both). The fact that he’s saying ‘anything with a vintage knob is a scam because it’s digital’, EK doesn’t seem to understand that the vast majority of analog instruments are digitally-controlled, for very good reason, like being able to carefully control pitch for doing accurate FM (which a lot of flagships do). There is absolutely nothing scammy about a synthesizer that, in its natural state, will sound so perfect that it lacks character, having some ‘slop’ coded in to the digital controls. To give people what they like about analog, with the kind of features people demand now due to using digital and software synths.

[@chipchasm]

you wasted your money, you wont get the sound. a real oberheim vst like a sem will take you there!

[@AlainHubert]

@@chipchasm When I say Oberheim, I don't mean the SEM modules, I mean the polysynths from the OB series. For the SEM type sounds I've got my good old OB-6. ;-)

[@fuseblower8128]

Yeah, a lot of them are glorified VSTs with knobs, faders and a keyboard. It's a scam. Except when it has wood sides of course. Wood sides change everything....

[@lopp3]

We love those real simulated wood grain sides!

[@gobblegobblebarfbarf]

I can hear the wood sides.... can't you?

[@mattmckeon1688]

​​@@lopp3adds natural accoustic resonance, didn't you know?

[@samprock]

I think adding X at the end is what makes them apart 😂 an wooden cheeks of course! I wonder how wise Espen felt for it! 😊

[@pablowentscobar]

It's the same thing with station wagons. You roll up in a station wagon people are like "Ugh, gross." you put some wood panelling on that same wagon, It's a whole different game. Peoples eyes fly out of their head and jaws hit the floor. it's all "Ohhh!" "Yeah!". If you know, you know.

[@sweetgoose64]

1. Workflow 2. Grooveboxes 3. Live synth players/performers. 4. DAW Learning Curve - Need I go on? This argument was cool 7 years ago, a bit late to the train on this one.

[@MyDeepGuide]

I guess the only point of this video was to gain traction and visibility on KZbin, and in that regard, it hits the mark and is a success. However, factually and argumentatively, it's very weak. If you are going to make such strong claims ("The Great Synthesizer Scam"), they need to be backed by examples, comparisons and facts. I don't disagree with the point you tried to make, I just think that it is a missed opportunity to actually make an important point stick. Unfortunately, the second part of the title "How They Reel You In" wasn't even touched upon in the video, so that part is just clickbait. I really expected something with substance here, but this wholly misses the mark, unfortunately.

[@sandkipper1]

"How they reel you in"? Consider this... KZbin, which started as a crappy website for cat videos has evolved into a money-making video-uploading-website for people who want to buy synths, and every other product under the sun. So what do some synth enthusiasts do? They set up a channel, claim it as a "business", buy synthesizers, claim them as a tax deduction, review them, get subscribers, then sell some or all of those synths for new synths. Then once they get enough subscribers they get messages from synth makers to visit their VIP launches and/or they get synths at a "radically reduced price”, “with no money exchanging hands" or on loan. This is accompanied with the lame statement: “[the company] have no influence over the content of this video and they don’t get to see the video before it’s released”. The KZbinrs forget to mention, however, that they also follow the principle of: “Do not bite the hand that feeds you”. Hence, their “disclaimer” is made in bad faith. The upshot is that manipulation to "reel you in" is at play. KZbin then gets saturated with videos of the same product. Videos that are released at a contractually defined specific time, with KZbinrs saying pretty much the same things - speaking within a safe-self-censored-boundary. The lust and buying frenzy begins - that's the result of manipulation, being taken for a ride, being mislead. Not having the headspace or the requisite diversity of opinions to think and reflect - “Is this for me?” “What are my options?” But it gets more ridiculous… “People say Behringer are bad so I should avoid them and go with Sequential, or Moog or Oberheim.” And to actualise this, Behringer products are intentionally avoided by many KZbinrs. That’s straightforward manipulation dressed-up in “good guy ethics”. The internet is now awash with “good synth guys vs bad synth guys” logic. The “good guys” seem to be (among others) the “honest and genuine” American synth companies like Moog, Sequential and Oberheim, versus the “bad guys” like Roland and Behringer, and that is highly manipulative. But does it work? Only up to a point. Behringer and Roland sales exceed those of Moog, Sequential and Oberheim. That explains why no one has taken over Roland and Behringer, unlike Moog, Sequential and Oberheim who have once again been bought out.

[@kvmoore1]

​@@sandkipper1Roland and Behringer are much bigger companies. Moog and Sequential are much smaller in comparison. Smaller companies under hardships have a higher tendency to get taken over or bought out by a large entity than a much larger company with more financial resources available to stay afloat on their own, even during difficult times.

[@jfn467]

It feels like a video created by a teenager realising his monthly allowance won't get him far, to help him regulate the negative emotions that frustration generates, and to convince himself it's for the better with plugins instead of real juicy hardware anyway!

[@b4chu5]

I don't need comparisons and examples to realize that a box with faders and knobs that's just running a software inside isn't worth thousands of dollars.

[@jfn467]

@@b4chu5 Because software writes itself? And processing platforms to run it safe and stable in that box are given away for free? Jesus people get a grip!

[@HOLODECK-MUSIC-PROJECT]

Espen turns radical into a 80s version of BadGear 😂

[@MindGap-2020]

Love it!

[@atmobeat]

At first glance, he's ticking all the boxes!

[@MindGap-2020]

@@atmobeat 🤣 Espen always ticks all the boxes!

[@MarkusGeheim]

Wouldn't it be Bad Kraft then?

[@neild4639]

​@@MarkusGeheim well played sir

[@ScottsSynthStuff]

10:01 that's inaccurate. All of the modern Behringer synths are exclusively surface-mount. There's no way they could produce the synths they do today at those prices if they were still using through-hole construction. With the move to surface-mount construction, Behringer synths have actually become far more reliable and long-lived than their previous generations of products.

[@Cubik303]

It is also worth mentioning that through-hole versus surface-mount simply doesn't matter except in terms of cost - at least in the case of synthesizers and associated gear. It is just a means of attaching (mechanically and electrically) components to a board. What people often mean when making this claim is that older, often through-hole, components from the 70's and 80's had poorer electrical performance or wider tolerances. This might (and often is) desirable in a synth circuit for sonic reasons. But that aspect is the component itself, not how it was soldered to the board. There may be other reasons to fault Behringer synths, but usage of surface-mount technology isn't one of them.

[@Synth2000]

I think that some of them are. Through hole makes things much easier to service.

[@AdamTheAd-vanc3d]

Smaller pcb traces = less inductance and noise etc. It's not just as simple as SMT vs THT. Also if you looked inside an old CS80 even the massive wiring looms would make a difference vs a modern iteration that would probably use small header connectors between boards.

[@anttihuovilainen1653]

@@AdamTheAd-vanc3d PCB trace inductance or resistance has absolutely no effect in synthesizer circuits - except for the digital control portion (where it of course has no effect on the sound, just whether the circuit works at all or not)

[@anniedarkhorse6791]

I have had a couple of Behringer Synths for years. Very reliable. No issues at all.

[@TheDams1975]

"Perception is everything" would fits well with audiophiles too :)

[@EspenKraft]

Hence why I address those in the video description.

[@meskisable]

@@EspenKraft Well there are scams in audiophile market, but there also legit gear. When you reach about 10k for a system improvements in sound quality become small and price rises exponentially. But I I heard systems that cost from 50 to 300k and they sound phenomenal. For headphones it is much cheaper. You can get DAC amp combo with headphones for about 2-3k.

[@EspenKraft]

The irony is that on some of these systems have music playing that is made on a laptop and software costing a total of $1000 or less. Audio systems costing $300K is snake oil. I've heard them as well, and even more expensive and it's totally bollocks.

[@meskisable]

@@EspenKraft Those systems is not made for music made with laptops. I had experience once when i played "beyond black rainbow" OST vinyl on audio note system. It sounded very bad(you can hear a lot of bad details), but on average hi-fi it sounded good. Then owners of that system played analog recorded jazz record - it sounded phenomenal. To me it is the same with cars. Nowadays you can get sporty saloon car that is fast and very good, but F1 car is miles of ahead in terms of performance.

[@jarls5890]

....or the Apple product in his lap.

[@linusblomberg6166]

Calling it as scam implies that there's dishonesty involved, and I don't think that is true at all. Most people are aware that much (but not all) of the sounds can be replicated in VST's, and they are also aware that some hardware give them something software alone doesn't. Like inspiration, workflow, tactility, etc, or just being able to fulfill your teenage dream of owning a flagship synth. Whatever it might be for you. Hardware is expensive because the effort and cost of developing and producing them are high, especially for small companies in high-cost countries. I don't think they would survive if they sold their products for much less. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. But you are not being scammed if you do.

[@alexandersupertramp3685]

I get the feeling that the video is trying to stir up negativity just to go viral. Instead, I encourage anyone who resonates with this video to explore the concept of user experience. The quality of a synthesizer isn't measured solely by the sound it produces.

[@marklondon2008]

That's literally the only purpose for a synthesiser. I get that people can get emotionally attached to an instrument but you can't get away from the fact that the sound it produces is its primary function. I don't care what the label says. I'd love to have a CS80 but i'm not sure why.

[@berkut6313]

You don't own a plugin, and never will. You only buy a license valid under said circumstances. If you need to meet deadlines, that's the way to go. I loved Absynth, RIP. The only good value for money plug ins are free ones: if you uodated your os and it no longer works, it did not cost you anything in the first place !

[@NothingHereButMe]

This is a really good point tbh. With everything going subscription based too 'owning' something is becoming harder. Don't pay full price for a Roland or Prophet though, they are overpriced

[@atarkus8]

That's actually what Dave Smith once said in an interview, that he went back into hardware after working on software because he wanted to make instruments that would still work 20 years from now. Having said that, once he realized how much cachet the old stuff had, the prices immediately spiked. Moog is by far the worst offender though. Charging 5k for a re-released Minimoog is insane, and is entirely a result of the sucker factor. It even used to cost 3.5k when they first tried it in 2016...

[@mdjey2]

This is why I never paid for a plugin.

[@valley_robot]

Lots of free plugins

[@Ziyoblader]

And this is why when you buy the product pirate it as well make sure you have a backup that is fixed so it does not ask you for any more money for when these corporate sleaze balls pull the subscription plan out of their butt. This is actually perfectly legal in the emulation space if you go to law school you would learn about it it's something they don't like to share too much but if you know you know as long as you have the physical copy with you and the system emulation dumping with your own data that's from your physical copy it is legal

[@runestone1337]

I was subscribed to the Roland Cloud but I cancelled it and kept my Jupiter X keyboard, TR-8S and MC-707. Just my opinion, but nothing beats the feel and inspiration of a hardware interface -- VSTs just don't do it for me.

[@TJ-bx5px]

But why can't someone start making hige end M8di controllers that are cheap, that mimic and looks like real hardware synthesizers...

[@chrislisten87]

@@TJ-bx5px there are. If I understand yout comment correctly. Called Dtronics . They have Jupiter8 and so on.

[@webtrekkeruk2487]

@@TJ-bx5px Yes, why not, indeed. In fact, many current MIDI controllers have better quality keyboards than some of these top brand synths. Also, you can use your favourite keyboard that you feel comfortable with to control many different VST instruments.

[@synthmaven]

@@TJ-bx5px Whoever ends up figuring that one out will MAKE A FORTUNE !

[@chipchasm]

ew, you like that corny gear. those ui-s would be the first to go

[@nomasters]

I remember when this guy made really interesting videos about old romplers and shit. Now he's churning out this sort of clickbait nonsense. I guess he ran out of romplers...

[@thecookreporting]

It's just baseless claim after claim without explanation.

[@worldofmuu]

Way to shit on a company like Groove Synthesis who’ve worked hard to create a niche product, continually updated it, and unfortunately exist in 2024 when even basic human necessities are expensive. Yep, just out to make money and fuck over the consumer.

[@buzzfunk]

exactly.

[@dionysiaex5538]

So its not the job of a capitalist company to charge as much as they can get away with then? i think you'll find it is.

[@genx1144]

cry harder

[@kevinslaney486]

Well....err, every company is out to make money, that is a fact. They don't do it for the love of it. But I see your point and certainly you couldmnot reproduce analogue filters on a VST

[@ageshero]

analog ‘Vintage’ knobs are awesome- don’t be silly. It’s not eye candy, it’s a fully integrated sound design feature that allows you to spread voices, knock accuracy off of the adsr, and fully change your sound fundementally with a single knob - using complex detuning.

[@pgpete]

I disagree. I have a Hydrasynth, and it doesnt hold a candle to my Prophet 10 in sound quality or the enjoyment I get from playing it. And no. - the Arturia VST of the Prophet 5 is not as good as the real thing. but these days VSTs now sate my G.A.S. appetite

[@handje1234]

Perception is everything.

[@BlackMan614]

@@handje1234 Buy a hearing aid.

[@garys-617]

And.... Espen DOESN'T have a Hydrasynth...!!??!!? Errrm....🙄🤔🤨

[@nilsvanderplancken]

The vsts sound better than the rev 4, but don’t come close to rev 1-3. Vintage synths are something else..

[@pgpete]

​@@nilsvanderplancken I own the gear I am commenting on.

[@stateazure]

Some of this I agree with (with regards to some synths being overpriced). But the 3rd Wave being a scam? That's hilarious. It's just a PPG clone? Well that's news to me! I own the 3rd Wave and the Waldorf PPG software, the software isn't even remotely close. Could the 3rd Wave be a VST? Sure, although without the analog filter. But that would be one heck of a plugin. People don't seem to realise the 3rd Wave can not only emulate the original PPG, but it can also do modern wavetable synthesis (some of the best I've ever heard), is also a very capable virtual analogue and a sampler, with a fantastic sequencer. Now times that by 4, and you start to understand what's great about the 3rd Wave. The build quality and keybed is also very impressive. It's definitely a premium and one-of-a-kind synth, and its price reflects that. I can see why some might see it as overpriced, but it's not to me and that absolutely does not make it a scam. But I'm not sure this guy actually understands the meaning of 'scam' in this context.

[@EspenKraft]

You willing to pay the price is fine by me. I don't care. I just want to warn people about spending that much on something you can get for WAY less, although not in that package admittedly. Hopefully some will see through the scam.

[@stateazure]

@@EspenKraft But you can't get the 3rd Wave as a plugin for much less - I pointed this out in my comment. You're completely out of touch/wrong about this. I OWN the Waldorf PPG software, it's not remotely the same, that's just the PPG software (which is also horrible to program by the way). The 3rd Wave is much, much more than that. It's ability to emulate a PPG is one small part of that synth.

[@EspenKraft]

Sure. I understand that not everyone will be pleased hearing they've been scammed, and you obviously don't see it that way and that's fine too. I never said the 3rd Wave isn't a great instrument, I'm questioning the price.

[@stateazure]

@@EspenKraft Nothing wrong with questioning the price, but you could do that without claiming 'scams' and stating software exists, when it doesn't. Expensive hardware doesn't = scam. Either you're misunderstanding the term, or this is intentional for controversy/views. There could be healthy discussions here about what you actually get for your money in regards to some of these expensive synths.

[@EspenKraft]

Yes, I could. But I don't do it like that. I like to word things on the more extreme side. I am here as I am in life, 100% true to my inner voice. Some hate me for that, some love me. I like that. I'd rather have some on either side of the spectrum than everyone in the middle, indifferent. I see this as a scam, you don't. That's fine.

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

The term ‘scam’ is far more relevant in the world of prestige electric guitars by Fender and Gibson. New synthesizers have research and development costs, a Les Paul is a block of wood with basic electronics in production since the 1950s.

[@MiltonGrimshaw]

And I guess that's why a Zynthian cost around $500 and is several synths, effects and a DAW in a box? R&D my arse, I own over 100 synths and exactly what Espen says is true, I've returned many of the new bigbrand synths the quality is questionable for the price.

[@dindinbre]

Cheap guitars became incredible in the last couple of years, I've had a Jackson that retails for around 130 dollars and it played better than Mexican Fenders I had a chance to try. And sound wise it sounded like an electric guitar with humbuckers.

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

@@dindinbre Yes. Harley Benton/Thomann also very good. Factory workers probably paid badly, though…I was looking at the price of the Murphy Labs, artificially distressed Gibson guitars. Ridiculous! Even standard Gibsons are the same as a prestige synth.

[@ViviSectia]

It's also more relevant in the world of guitar pedals. They literally put a new coat of paint on decades old circuits though some of them at least change a capacitor or two so it's an "new" circuit.

[@dindinbre]

@@TheExtremenarcissist yea, and when it comes to guitars, they all sound very similar if their pickup configurations are similar (it really comes down to looks and logo on the headstock), while if you want a specific synth sound, you need to have that specific synth (or something that clones it *khm khm Behringer*)

[@Reyescult]

I could not disagree with your take any more if I tried. I am fortunate enough to own many of those SCAM synths. So, you can take my opinion with a grain of salt. I didn’t pay anywhere near $7k for my 3rd Wave. It is absolutely the best sounding wavetable synth I have ever owned, and I have owned a lot of them.

[@JohnnyADi]

As an owner of the desktop module I 100% agree! All of his prices are way higher than even retail! I haven't bought a synth in 4 years till the 3rd wave.

[@dionysiaex5538]

What does "best sounding" even mean? I would guarantee that in proper double blind tests, let alone in actual tracks, you wouldn;t even be able to pick it out.

[@JohnnyADi]

@@dionysiaex5538 that's sooooo not true. I've listened back and fourth between vsts and own plenty to know it's not the same. You're too broke to know so you just assume we are bullshitting you. And you can't AB comparison like we can. Go educate yourself and go get a job.

[@kokakolagodcomp-vi2yv]

are you the guy he mentions in beginning who has all these strong opinions of his expensive gear and makes no music with them?

[@Reyescult]

@@dionysiaex5538 It means exactly what it 'sounds' like. 😊

[@larsuk9578]

Not sure what the point of this is... We are lucky to live at a time where we are spoilt for choice and there are synth for all budgets and needs. If people want and can afford a premium instrument, then great and it's good that boutique manufacturers like UDO have a market and can live off their passion. Yes most sounds can be obtained from plugins and that's great too for people who prefer that experience over a hardware equivalent, but that doesn't make hardware instruments scams, in my humble view...

[@Wagoo]

He's just trying to justify his own recent VST-centric philosophy and troll some people on youtube as he knows what kind of reactions this vid will get I'm sure some people can happily stay in the box and make music that way - but for me I always find the tactile experience of hardware vastly more inspiring and FUN than clicking about at yet another program.. something I do all day for my day job as it is. Hardware puts me in a different head-space. I'd actually like MORE VSTs to be put in hardware form. It'd be nice if some company specialized in it as a service for VST makers

[@bangmateo7481]

The point is about being scammed.

[@larsuk9578]

@@bangmateo7481 yes precisely. I don't see where the scam is. There are premium instruments and cheaper instruments. It's not because an instrument is expensive that it is a scam. Is a Steinway or Bosendorfer piano a scam because there are cheaper pianos? Also, boutique manufacturers will always be more expensive that mass production ones... I think Dave Smith would be mildly be offended to be called a scammer after all he's done for the music industry!

[@bangmateo7481]

@@larsuk9578 Are you nuts?

[@onlinescammer8291]

@@larsuk9578 your argument would make sense if a flagship hardware VST actually was akin to a Steinway compared to a common cheap piano. But today's "premium instrument" is often just a common cheap piano with expensive marketing.

[@Observe-n-Learn]

Flagship prices are being "adjusted" now, a lot more next year. Seeing many used ones being sold at $1K-$2K depreciation. When Hydrasynth Deluxe went on sale for $1500, I saw it as the bargain. Then they updated the O.S. and it is a Poly AT beast. Used synths I love are, Novation Ultranova ~$350, Studiologic Sledge Black ~$600, DeepMind 12 or 12D $500-$600, Take 5, a stretch at ~$1000... just to name some. If manufacturers want to pry $3K+ from me, the synth needs to have a lot of magic above and below the hood.

[@bukkaratsuppa6414]

I got deepmind 12d for a ridiculous bargain, new. I just cought the right moment, it's 1.5 times more expensive now in my country then what i paid less than 2 years ago. Such a beautiful synth, for so cheap! I sold my Nord Rack 2X just before, and then i felt bad for the guys who bought it, they seemed so involved with music, but that money i asked did obvisouly not come easy. I definitely should have gone down 10%, if i knew i was about to hit that bargain with Deepmind. I was about to bring it down anyway, now i feel bad, as if i ripped them off.

[@Slurkz]

Although you have a point, don't underestimate the cost of actual hardware. A case with faders, buttons, lights, controllers, I/O, power supply, mainboard and cabling is expensive. For a well built synth like the Juno X the parts-list easily adds up to $1000. And that's excluding development cost, marketing, labour, support and shipping. So the $2000 retail price for a Juno X seems not so bad after all. But $5000 or 7000 for a synth with a similar parts list? Yes: that is scammy.

[@johndeaux3703]

Why is the Juno-X shockingly cheaper on the Thomann site in Germany than what they're asking for it in the US?

[@Slurkz]

@@johndeaux3703 $1500 is cheap indeed... Beats me! I'm from the Netherlands, where it's €2000.

[@johnnyvegas2015]

Agreed 👍

[@johnnyvegas2015]

@@johndeaux3703 in Canada is very similar price to Thomann

[@Slurkz]

@@johndeaux3703 Weird... I'm in the Netherlands, where it's 2000 as well.

[@nohman2012]

I see your point, but: There is so much hate here on the internet and you use such a drastic word like “scam”. I met the guys from Groove Synthesis at Superbooth. I think they put lot of effort in this instrument. If you would have met them personally there, would you call them scammers as well? Everyone should choose for oneself if he wants to get into hardware synth. I personally think it is more musical to play an actual instrument. Only my opinion.

[@EspenKraft]

I am online as I am in real life. I have no problems meeting people telling it how I see it, but I don't have to be rude about it and just blabber on unmotivated, but in a one-to-one discussion about prices I'd have no problems saying it how it is. I've done so before as well. Some can take it, some cannot.

[@yanickborg3118]

What else do you call overpriced VST boxes ?

[@yanickborg3118]

​​@@EspenKraft Espen you've done a really great job, and you've hit the nail on the head. Controversies and backlash are to be expected.

[@prophei]

WTF are you talking about with these ridiculous prices? For example, you called the 3rd Wave a $7000 synth!! It is $3,495.00 at Sweetwater and other retailers. You are finding ridiculous prices for some of these. Maybe you would be less bitter about this if you had a better synth dealer nearby? Aside from that nonsense, let's speak for the synths made in the SF Bay area. This would include the 3rd Wave, the Oberheim, and all the Sequential synths. All of them need to be expensive to be made here. They are proudly designed and build here locally. It is massively expensive to be here, let alone manufacture here. You might think that this isn't worth it to you, but it does allow some of the most creative and consequential synth designers in modern history to still make things for us. Many live here, and all of the people working for them are here. The next generation of those synth designers are here. The manufacturing is here. Made in the USA means something to some people, and unfortunately, it can't be done very cheap. These synth makers are doing something great in a very expensive place to do it, and it gives people who are here an incredible opportunity to do great things. Some people find that worth paying for. I do. Do they make money on it, of course, but it is hardly the rape of the consumer that you make it out to be. With all your net research, I am sure you can figure out how much a simple office space or warehouse costs in San Francisco, one large enough to make a product. You should tape your jaw to your head before you do, cause it will hit the floor. If everything now must be made in some cheap shop in Asia to placate every synth snob, then let those snobs have those synths. I'll enjoy those made with far higher quality that support our local culture. It also should be mentioned that if you look at what some of the original prices were back in the day, and adjust for inflation, all of your whining is a product of how fortunate you have been with some of the cheap gear available. Note that the stuff built like the old stuff tends to have the higher price. Have you ever manufactured anything? All the metal in those cases is already hugely expensive. The use the good parts, keybeds, metals, etc. They are offering a product for those who want those things. That's not a rip off. People who can only afford software are simply not who they are made for... and so what? I'd have agreed with you about Moog. I got the 16v One and felt ripped off. The 8k it cost was simply waaaaaaay too high. It didn't sound remarkable to me, so I traded it for 3 other synths. Then I hear you comment that the Moog Muse is 5k... again, you way inflate the prices. It is about $3,495.00, on average. that's 1.5k difference! WTF is going on with your numbers? Many of these synths simply don't cost what you say they do.

[@meskisable]

In Europe it cost 6k euro.

[@prophei]

@@meskisable That sounds like European taxes and dealers making money, how is that the fault of synth designers in the USA? He showed a doubled price for the 3rd Wave, and $1500 more for the Muse. Buy them in the US and ship them to Europe then. We have certainly done that with some European gear when it made sense. Point is, taking the very craziest price you can find isn't a good point against a manufacturer who is clearly not taking anything close to that as a profit.

[@prophei]

@@smartti1970 Which is? I checked all the prices before I made the comment.

[@prophei]

To be clear, are we talking about the 3rd Wave right now?

[@mtemmerm]

@@prophei EU import taxes will take care of the difference unfortunately.

[@LevGeorge]

I'm learning to play the cello, I have now a very good cello, but that doesn't mean that one day I won't want a much better cello, just like my teacher... It's the same with pianists, it makes a difference whether you play a school, let's say, a basic piano or a Bösendorfer or a Steinway... It's about both the feel and the sound, and the differences are significant.

[@Sinesquares]

A few months ago I met Yiannis who owns Dreadbox synths and we were taking about the Korg PS 3300. When we talked about the price he told me “I could definitely build one for Dreadbox but if Korg manages to sell it at 13.000$ the Dreadbox one would probably cost 30K 😂 The point is that many somewhat smaller companies are struggling to have competitive prices and they have extremely high production costs, commissions for dealers, taxes, etc. I’ve talked with dozens of people in the music gear industry and they definitely don’t look like people who are trying to scam us to get rich. Many of them make money - it’s a business after all but not always on our backs..

[@chipchasm]

commerce is a scam by proxy. no one is even reinventing the wheel. dreadbox used to be made in greece, they got cheap and their quality went way down. don’t really f- with them since they started making money lol. parts are becoming more pricey but you are looking at 10x markup from build cost to sale cost. dreadbox isn’t getting rich because dreadbox isn’t innovating.pretty much every company is just pumping memberberries.

[@rabarebra]

I first thought you ment Yanni. You know, that old school synth artist. 😂

[@Sinesquares]

@@rabarebra 😂😂😂 haha nope

[@lesliekirkwood5081]

I definitely smell a rat here! Notice that the only synth manufacturers called out are competition for Behringer. There are many expensive hardware synths that are not called out that are entirely digital. Fact check - 3rd Wave price is $4995 and not $7000. I own one. It has analog circuitry beyond the oscillators, is not a PPG clone, but does that bit perfectly, and really makes anything I am working on sound fantastic.

[@ChrisP3000x]

Try watching the video. He calls out Behringer.

[@phrozend]

@lesliekirkwood5081. No, Espen is correct. It would cost me 73,000 NOK to order a 3rd Wave from Thomann. That's about 6,800 USD. If I were to buy it from Sweetwater for the price you suggest, the import tax would push it right back up to 73,000 NOK. Remember, not everyone live in the US.

[@chillwalker]

We talked about similar things here on youtube before. And, again, Espen, my friend, you are the GOAT!

[@southerner66]

On the other hand, remember that many of these synthesizer companies never really made that much money and were often in danger of going out of business (with Roland being the exception because they diversified). And manufacturing a synthesizer including the case, the keyboard, the control panel, the artwork, etc... is not insignificant. If you're a player who performs the controls, it matters.

[@michaelkonomos]

This is such a strange, aggressive take. First, the premise that real musicians are all software is easily disproven when you watch Cortini, Trent Reznor, St Vincent and others talk about their relationship with hardware. Secondly, “you can get the same sounds from the VST” is 90% true in the literal sound design sense, but not at all true in the actual music you make. It’s like saying that you can draw a drawing with a computer mouse just like with a pencil - you can make a mark, sure, but the mouse is a bad pencil. Programming midi isn’t playing piano. Automation isn’t turning a knob. It’s totally cool to be all digital. I use a LOT of digital synths and plugins myself. love ableton. but make a little more room in your mind for other people to have different ways of creating and please dont be so superior. sure you are a great person. just let people enjoy their own path if they arent hurting someone else

[@VincentPresley]

Yeah, pretty much all "real musicians" I know are all using a whole lot of real gear. Usually a room full.

[@maco34576]

womp womp, old man with thousands of gear and ZERO GOOD SONGS complains at man on the internet. Get a life.

[@luiscarlosec]

completamente de acuerdo y además me encanta tu buen feeling y educación.

[@chipchasm]

no one is drawing with a mouse. nice false equivalence!

[@michaelkonomos]

@@chipchasm oh everyone has a Wacom or Apple Pencil? I’m a professional illustrator but please do go on.

[@Javarrockamore]

click bait at its finest! I watched your less than stellar video out of boredom because my "vst" I was using froze up so I had to restart fl studio ... the irony. couple points. I own a 3rd wave, Moog sub37 and a trigon. I also am multi platinum , grammy nominated , top billboard producer. there isn't any plugin that sounds better than any of them. Omnisphere is the only that comes close. there is no plugin on the market that can do what the 3rd wave does. im not sponsored by them and I only bought the module. take it from a professional music producer/ engineer, songwriter, sound designer. etc. its not the plane its the pilot. So if the stuff youre making is whack then it's whack. Roland is for sure taking advantage of people and I agree they're getting too expensive. plugins DO NOT sound as good. Again my professional opinion .

[@neonether]

I'm not grammy nominated, but completely agree about the 3rd wave. It's an incredible machine and instrument. And that breath taking sound is a testament to the sheer amount of analog filters and components they packed into it. Sourcing those kinds of parts isn't cheap and there's hard data behind the cost of goods when it comes to sourcing and engineering such a machine. I love Groove Synthesis and applaud companies like that who are taking the plunge on innovating synthesizers like that, hoping to recoup their investment to bring their passion to the world. Ignore this bitter man and play on!

[@JohnnyADi]

I also agree, the 3rd wave is the only synth I bought in 4 years! Nothing sounds as good, the team is amazing. It's a 24 voiced digital moog one. And yes absolutely Roland is a scam, worst big brand synth company in 2024. That's the only thing I agree with. Korg and yamaha made vsts of their flagship instruments to now make them much more affordable for people who just want the sounds. This guy is delusional and gets all the prices way wrong. He's old.

[@nujuat]

Not that I want to defend or buy any of these synths mentioned, but knobs and faders are literally how you play synthesisers. As a more dramatic example, using an accordion vst with a midi controller is nothing like playing an accordion, even if you could (virtually) squeeze out similar sounds.

[@EspenKraft]

No, you PLAY synthesizers on their keys. How you PROGRAM a synth is another matter.

[@nujuat]

@EspenKraft even if modifying parameters in real time for expression wasn't a thing, programming is still part of using a synth, and its feel doesn't hold zero value.

[@EspenKraft]

Programming a synth was never a thing to many great players and composers of the past. It was to some. We're all different.

[@torino1138]

⁠@@EspenKraft Eddie Van Halen would like a word lolol

[@EspenKraft]

Eddie is dead. He has no voice.

[@teknokont]

Analog or digital, brand new synths are expensive for most of us, but high prices does not mean that synth manufacturers enjoy high volumes of cash flow. In fact most of the manufacturers have to face with lots of expenses, taxes, development costs etc... In this environment they have to survive and I can understand that cause I studied mechanical engineering. I don't like this situation but that's the reality of our capitalist world that I can not change. And as a musician, for years I have spent most of my savings on vintage gear, synths etc... This was a choice and, honestly, sometimes I question my journey but at the end of the day c'est la vie and life is not perfect and logical, I love music, I love my synths.

[@Bin909able]

I love your videos, but to be honest I think this comes down to complaining about capitalism. You don't have to buy that synth. Capitalism in healthcare or food is a far bigger issue..

[@mb72oz]

You are way off base here, but these kind of comments are fairly typical from someone who hasn't been involved with production of hardware devices. Do you really think that manufacturers like Melbourne Instruments, to take one example, are getting rich off sales of their gear? Hardware is expensive to prototype, source and manufacture. There is also the dealer margin to factor in, which can be significant. Smaller number of units made -> each unit is proportionally more expensive. I'm not sure what side of the bed you woke up on and thought that this was a good video to produce, as it exposes your lack of understanding of the reality of hardware production; you would have been better served doing some research first. Reach out to some manufacturers, ask them what goes into creating their devices, and THEN present your opinion. As it stands, this comes off as wilful ignorance and doesn't really fit with the otherwise high-quality and interesting information on your channel.

[@jptaylor]

As predicted by Espen, he knew you’d say this.🤣 The truth is always hard to swallow for many.

[@AudioAtmos]

@@jptaylor Predicting that someone would set the record straight takes nothing special. A very typical form of argument used these days which sounds good when there’s no one to immediately counter these assumptions. KZbin and social media is a bastion of this false debate. You’re still under the perception this video is 100% on the money. It’s not.

[@mb72oz]

@@jptaylor knowing how to use a particular tool well doesn't equate to understanding the costs or effort involved in it's manufacture. Espen is a smart guy and talented musician, but it hasn't stopped him being wrong about many things in this particular case.

[@krakulandia]

You're 100% right. I myself founded a small HW synth company and was hit in the face with the reality of how high the costs quickly climb with the products. I was shocked at how cheaply Behringer was able to produce their products. Just having the same amount of potentiometers as K-2 would already push the street price of the boutique synths with equal amount of potentiometers well past the Behringers price. Behringer has done lots of business moves which are unique in the musical instrument history: they have their own component factoris AND they build their very own town/city for the sole purpose to have its vry own ecosystem so all the money spent there won't spread outside of that town/city. This ensures the money spent there goes back to Behringer/Music Tribe. This in turn makes the losses of workforce and production as minimal as they can be in theory without using prisoners for workforce. Because of this they can manufacture their products probably at quarter of the price their competition can. Currently no one can challenge their prices.

[@FUTURSample]

I agree, it's true for new brands with new synthesizers. But the old brands have largely amortized the costs of r&d, production line, plus the components are surface welded with robots which reduces the cost of labor.

[@peteblues72]

this guy doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. He should see the balance sheet of those boutique companies and see how little profits they actually make. Comparing a hardware synth with a plugin is like comparing apples to oranges. What makes a synth expensive are the buttons, knobs, keys, casing, converters, analog components (VCOs, VCFs, etc.). You don't quite get that experience by fiddling with a mouse.

[@RKisBae]

You can fiddle knobs with a decent $400 midi keyboard, no?

[@VincentPresley]

Exactly. I can't stand vsts. I also don't like playschool toy plastic synths, mini keys, etc etc. I would say Roland's synths are the most overpriced since they're all basically midi controllers at this point but there are a lot of great synths at very reasonable prices and you generally get what you pay for.

[@dkpianist]

@@RKisBae Well yes and no. Dedicated buttons do make sense on a synth.

[@mitsanut5869]

​@@RKisBaeyes, but they are cheaply done, and they're made for different purpose. That's why they're so inexpensive. A fully analogue beast costs a lot to make, and no VST will ever sound like it. Plus, there's nothing like playing the real thing.

[@mitsanut5869]

​@@VincentPresleyI've got 7 synths, most of them very high quality. Except one that I found on used market for great price, I've always paid over 3K. Each of them is a beast I would never sell. You always get what you pay for.

[@scottmcauleysounds]

The only way I feel scammed is actually believing you knew what you were talking about. Wow. Never in my days have I ever viewed such nonsense. Seriously? I assume when you decide to sell your JP8 you will let it go for the same price as Uli's clone? (just so you are not "scamming" me?) Watched your channel for years, I am disappointed that it seems you lack so much basic understanding of synth design & manufacture, and inherent behaviours of analog synths. Everyone is entitled to an "Informed opinion". but this is so misinformed it's crazy. Yes soft synth and modelling is getting better, but they are not there yet, that aside, once the development costs of a VST are over, there are ZERO manufacturing costs, just a website holding files, no faulty parts or labour to worry about post development, no real life warranties covering repairs etc. (and where is the hands on with VST)? Im sure you'll understand that with buying the RETROAKTIV controllers for your Juno etc... Now....3rd Wave...that really made me laugh. I can 100% tell you have not even had your hands on one of these. it is not "Just a PPG", it has the best wavetable capabilities I have ever seen, the Waveforms are the best I've heard, the VA Waves are outstanding, and all this run through 24 x Dave Rossum-designed 2140 analog low-pass filters with variable saturation. It can Sample, it can be 4 independent 6 voice synths all with dedicated fx and outputs, it can be 2 x independent 12 voice synths, or one colossal 24 voice beast. Can do Binaural, It sequences, and if you can tell me which VST can offer the quality and versatility and that the 3rd wave does (with hands on) then I will eat my boots. "Vintage Knobs mean something is afoot?" - because synths are so well designed to allow musicians to have complete control (so more stable), the vintage knob is simply a way of adding further variance into not only tuning but envelope timings and various other parameters. But if we don't want that, we can dial it back. The components in old synths were far more prone to temp changes, but as the world developed so did components, smaller, less susceptible to heating up, which in turn made the synths far more stable. it was the musicians who wanted the variance/vintage back, and it was delivered. "why cant they let Oscillators go wonky, and have an autotune button?" - They do, they are analog, inherently wonky, again proves to me you haven't really played any of these synths you are trying to throw under the bus, because each does drift, and when they do, there is an autotune button to remedy. (obviously not in the 3rd wave) Prices PolyBrute 12 - You Quoted $5000 to $6000??? - Actual Price $3499 with free shipping (Way Off) UDO "Super6 Gemini" - Actually two different synths not one instrument. Black Corporation you Quoted $6000 or $7000??? - Actual Price $4299 with free shipping (Way Off) 3rd Wave you Quoted $7000??? - Actual Price $4995 for synth, or $3495 with free shipping (yet again Way Off) Poor choice of video. Enjoy the views on this one, because I feel the rest of your views may drop after this.

[@EspenKraft]

I have no JP8s to sell. I don't own any. As for your long reply, I talk about people like you in the beginning of the video. It hurts your butt doesn't it?

[@scottmcauleysounds]

Doesn't hurt me. because none of it is even the remotest bit truthful. I know what I've done musically over the years and continue to do so. I just don't demand attention for it. I do however feel this video will hurt your channel. which is a shame. best of luck sir.

[@EspenKraft]

Every time I make a video where I talk about topics that interest me I get comments like that; "This video will hurt your channel". ;-) Heard that for years. Yet, my channel is still here, alive and well.

[@scottmcauleysounds]

@@EspenKraft So is the JP8 to your left ;)

[@EspenKraft]

It's not mine.

[@jgyeaman3042]

oh how little you know about synths, I have a ton of synths in my home studio and I am highly offended sir. Let me count the ways.... 1.... 2.....3....

[@jspic4907]

Espen, I love your direct stance on things and your sense of humor. Don't change! Cheers

[@johnpaulpatton9786]

What currency are you using when quoting these prices? You are saying dollars, but if you are referring to U.S. prices, you are off by $1500 to $2000 with your numbers.

[@aquaticborealis4877]

Sounds like Canadian prices

[@Lordxfx]

Eur.

[@SixteenVoice]

This

[@SixteenVoice]

It looks like he has Mickey Mouse conversion factors. Taking Norwegian Kroner and dividing by 10. He has not seen a dollar in his life most likely.

[@LightningSpritesJetsWizard]

The Blofeld basically shows what a hardware digital synth should cost at maximum. That's technology from 2007, whose features have not been surpassed still (Hydrasynth does not match it in multi-timbrality and polyphony). It seems Waldorf keeps manufacturing it to make exactly that point. Some recent synths KingKorg Neo and Roland Gaia 2 also seem to cost hundreds of € above their feature set.

[@swid_swid_swid]

The Blofeld shows what an actual VST in a box with only 4 super cheap encoder knobs should cost. I had one, sold it - wasn’t bad at all, but did nothing for me. Bring on all the Sequentials - I use my Trigon on everything, sounds incredible. Use the Prophet and Take 5 a little less so, but there is still an enormous difference between something like that and a Blofeld, which has virtually none of the knob-per-function advantages of a hardware synth - you’re much better off sticking with the Largo.

[@TheBroDotTV]

Exactly this totally agree

[@LightningSpritesJetsWizard]

@@swid_swid_swid I agree the UI isn't that accessible. There is always hidden settings active somewhere (1-5 knob presses/turns away) you forgot were active. Things like its multi-mode and patch saving need a precise operation of knob/dial combinations, or you'll accidentally lose something...

[@jackcimino8822]

The MicroMonsta 2 would like to have a word with you.

[@gevansmd]

I own a Blofeld and it has the weakest output of any of my synths.

[@niklassilen4313]

Looks like Espen has sold his soul to the mighty click bait Gods. Oh well..

[@EspenKraft]

Ok, what title would you put on the video then?

[@niklassilen4313]

@@EspenKraft Something like this: "Do you really need to spend thousands hardware synthesizers? No!". You use words like "scam" and "sucker" which is very disingenuous. For instance the Roland Jupiter X has that lovely sequencer/arp thing that is pretty unique in how you can play with it (a bit like a Korg Karma system). Naturally it's still just a glorified computer with a keybed + knobs but still.. the way you went on about some of these was very click baity. By the way, I really do agree with you almost 100% but the way you put it with all the spliced cringy video clips in between from Wall Street is about as typically click baity as it can get. I like it when you don't try to be so "generic youtuber" and be more yourself. You've grown your audience by being yourself. Don't change now.

[@SandyZoop]

I predict there will be a follow up video revealing it was a prank or something. At least I hope so. Otherwise, well, I can just listen to some songs for a fraction of what he charges, so he must be scamming everyone, right? It’s not like the experience is different, and that he has costs including his own living expenses, the hardware gear, the value of his time practicing and writing, etc. Nope, he’s just a scam when I can just put on a bunch of MP3s for free! Anyone who hires him or buys tickets is just a sucker. Right, Mr. Kraft?

[@EspenKraft]

Then I suggest YOU make a video with that title. I do things my way, as I've always done, and always will. I'll have these words (in Norwegian) on my tombstone. I will NEVER do what other people expect, demand or desire. It's all going to be on MY terms.

[@jason.martin]

Actually Espen is stating exactly what he says in the video which lines up with the title. clickbait is when the content in the video does not reflect the title of the video at all. So it is not clickbait at all

[@albaaaaaaaable]

he's right. He's not saying that these synths are bad or that the companies are 'evil', but I never understand spending THAT much for something that is not analogue. Surely Moog knobs are lovely and some synths still feel great for the workflow, so if somebody have the money to spend they should... but a lot of the big keyboards he mentioned are flumsy on the keyboard side of things, and with midi controller getting better and better, I think is nice to spend on stuff that make sound according to it's own wiring /tubes etc. Analogue synths have great emulation software too, I just feel is a more justified expense, but if you really like the sound and the workflow and you have money to spend...

[@prinzbach]

Very courageous to speak your mind on this topic… especially on YT (and/or internet). I may not agree on everything you said but yes, you should always be mindful of how you spend your money… especially with digital synths that are available as VSTs.

[@RobertStyles-o2t]

What a load of rubbish. Hardware synths are a lot more expensive to build- not only the components but labour charges to build/test and the metalwork and woodwork too. Software synths have none of these costs.

[@colinrussell2017]

Not to mention it's really hard to resell a plugin

[@chipchasm]

the physicality is where all the mark up is! you pay 10x on a knob!

[@kennethpace9887]

Wow. Start a video saying "this is my opinion," then say "noone is going to like it," and finish off with "watch them comment..." And immediately, the comments are "ignorance!" Yes, Espen, you know what is going on. You know them better than they imagine.

[@MichaelJamesWood]

But... he was right. I'm reading it now.

[@jfn467]

He's Espen Kraft, and you're not.... 🤣🤣🤣

[@Cabong69]

Never thought about this way, but since your previous video on the topic, it opened my eyes and made me question the fact that our newest synth may not work for a long time as PCB board could get discontinued in just a few years.

[@davidkittmusic]

I have owned a lot of synths over the years and played many others in studios and while you may be right about the fuse et al the 3rd wave is a very special synth and fully worthy of its price in my opinion. it's like buying a handmade guitar by a master luthier. when you hear it with your own ears in the flesh it's a complete masterpiece and considering the prices its vintage peers go for it's a bargain. I bought the microwave plugin, it's great but nothing close. I owned a microwave 1 and have played the 10k+ wave and this thing stands up to them and presents a whole universe of other super modern possibilities. I've learned some great lessons on this channel but you are way way off in your opinion of the 3rd wave.

[@markushorn]

I have "a ton of (hardware) synths" ... and I am making music with it. I am not "outraged" concerning your opinions. I just think that you are completely wrong. And I also think that it is very sad of you not to understand, that nobody makes "a lot of money" with musical instruments. All these instruments are built by people with a lot of enthusiasm. You should thank them instead of bashing them.

[@luiscarlosec]

I completely agree, the video seems to me to be a lack of recognition and gratitude for the people who have dedicated so much time and effort to making magical synths and that unfortunately has cost some of them the ruin. Ultimately, if they make money, they deserve it.

[@jeno.javori_music]

Well, Sometimes Vst is better, sometimes not. But I think the guy has a point. You dont have to be angry on him. It is just an opinion. I have some synths also, but not every synth is as good as it seems to be.

[@jeno.javori_music]

@@luiscarlosec I disagree, I have synths and sometimes for sounbd design I use VST , couse of easy use, and what he said its the truth. Synths are now computers with a different interface.

[@johnrunnels5016]

First for everyone getting mad. He has always changed his mind on stuff, people can do that. I remember him pushing, yes, very clearly pushing for people to get upgrades on their vintage gear, then he made a video shortly after saying how it ruined the "vintage" aspect of it. I don't mind Espen's opinions, as much as his constantly contradicting himself, and never addressing it to his audience. THAT, is the unprofessional poorly executed part of all this, people have a right to change their minds, but be respectful to your audience, acknowledge you're talking out your bum most of the time, and that you likely will change your mind again, again, and again. Maybe also be aware of you're own contradictions, and not talk like you weren't the one drinking your own kool-aid just weeks prior.

[@ralpix6240]

That was great! 😄Not being able to affort that stuff suddenly feels a lot better...

[@BeepsAndBeats]

People don’t buy the synth, they buy the status

[@sub-jec-tiv]

@@BeepsAndBeats Spoken like a person with ‘amateur’ in their screen name (sorry you kinda asked for it by making a blanket generalization about a demographic you have no first-hand experience with)😉. I’m not a collector, i’ve never posted a pic of my rig anywhere. I don’t discuss my gear much with friends. I’m a 35+ year audio & music professional. I bought a Prophet X because the sound is simply jaw-dropping. The stereo Prophet filter Dave Rossum designed, is also used in believe in the UDOs and 3rd wave. When clients get my stuff, they’re often like ‘The synth sounds amazing!’ And i get hired again. I can’t speak for anybody else, but what i can say is, professional musicians are a real existing market. And these products are for them. I’m not sticking up for Roland, their flagships are absolutely overpriced, as their economy of scale is closer to Behringer, and they cut corners on build and UI. But smaller companies are legitimately just making the best-quality instruments they can. If you don’t need one, buy something else. But i will say, i sold some of my older vintage gear (which often needed servicing checkups) to buy the Prophet. And once it got into my studio, i sold 2 other synths that year, because i simply wasn’t using them anymore. Not only has that synth already paid for itself many times over, i actually reduced the amount of gear in my studio. Personally, i’m a professional user who invests in my business. And yes, i absolutely bought the synth, not the status.

[@stevec.1802]

Espen, it’s not the gear it’s the player. Great topic & presentation. This can be applied to all industries. Sheeple with resources are gullible. Excellent information- ty

[@DALTRON666]

I respect you for stating your opinion and not back down even if it ruffles the feathwrs of many. This day and age this is rare.

[@bobjoe7508]

Espen, I’m a longer term subscriber and I need to say that you seem to be avoiding responding to several key points raised by other commentators: -You were probably speaking more anecdotally in terms of prices, but they don’t seem to reflect what people are actually paying -I’m not a synth manufacturer, but there are actual synth reps in the comments pointing out that they are not ripping people off, and most synth manufacturers have very thin margins I understand the points you’re making here (and I also understand your very dry sense of humor). In the future I probably wouldn’t post these kinds of videos on your main channel.

[@alex47a659]

Will there be a story about that very high-class escort?

[@russ254]

came here to find out more xxoo

[@shapeshifta3431]

yeh, she wouldn't sleep with him even though he offered 9kusd

[@cortical1]

To me, Espen is also making an underlying point here that all of these tiny issues and factors that many people obsess over are completely irrelevant to making great music. Espen could have only an Alesis SR16, a Casio SA2, and a Radio Shack lapel mic and his songs would still sound like a million bucks. The longer you remain distracted by the gear minutiae, the longer you won't be learning to make great music. That's the scam. Plus, mother-in-law taxidermy isn't what it used to be. In the 80s, we used real glass eyeballs, no cheap plastic. 👍🏻

[@gobblegobblebarfbarf]

Yeah, you can always tell when it's the cheap plastic eyeballs. And digital envelopes.

[@fakelector]

@@gobblegobblebarfbarf True, plastic eyeballs lose their shine and begin to crack. You can use the digital envelopes to send your mother-in-law a letter after death. You don't even have to lick them.

[@gobblegobblebarfbarf]

@@fakelector ooohhh... licking the envelopes! (I thought you meant the eyeballs.)

[@arjanr100]

Who cares what Espen Kraft thinks or any other synth(fluencer)-youtuber for that matter !? My analogs sound great and (their filters) give me goosebumps(Sequential P10, Pro3, Analogue Solutions Fusebox, Impulse Command, B2600, Behringer, P800). VST sometimes sound awesome, but they never get anywhere near to this sensation.

[@arjanr100]

To add to this, Espen sits with Apple on his lap, talk about overpriced products.

[@ab521]

Last time i checked, VSTs are free. If you are going to gig with VSTs, you need to have a reliable computer, and you better have a backup. Because of VSTs, hardware synth sales are less than they use to be. If you sell fewer synths, you have charge more to make the business viable. So if you are a working musician, that total cost of the solution comes into play and whether or not it is worth it depends on your needs and expectations. Hard to make a blanket statement here.

[@motoroverflow]

Keep 'em reflecting about what really matters, my friend. I love it. 🔥🔥🔥

[@g3cd]

Sequential has perfect MIDI implementation, a perfect, intuitive user interface and still provides manuals, spare parts and software for vintage DSI synths like the Poly Evolver. This is a unique, outstanding service that comes at a premium I'm willing to pay. You could of course steal every idea and not invest in any development like Behringer, but I'm not supporting this. The Black Corporation Kijimi has LFOs for pretty much every single knob and is the ONLY polyphonic synth that does that.

[@sergiodeoliveira5358]

Not everyone wants to do music in front of a computer (including myself). I do agree Oberheim/Sequential prices are out of hand though.

[@100DollarHeadache]

I too do not want to have a QWERTY and pointer device in front of me when making music. The QWERTY and pointer are for office and gaming applications and web surfing, not making music.

[@whatsthemonsterbelow]

I work 100% in the box professionally. It's not as fun, but there's never time for hardware.

[@metatron3942]

It’s true I could make a emulation of a flute and then harass all the flute players.

[@birdie17uk]

@@CraigScottFrost Does the screen still work?

[@simex909]

I don't want to do music in front of a computer either, but I want to make music, so I use the best method (software) and tell my sensibilities to stfu.

[@iApAchy]

Important note regarding your point about the well-known session bassist. The bassist's point about the "producer switch" is he changes the inflections in his playing/playing position etc. rather than changing a tone control on his instrument. This makes the producer think he's done something more drastic when asked to make the bass sound a certain way i.e. "can you make it shimmer?" when all the tonal change has come from his skill.

[@tyunwin3858]

So much to unwrap here...... But the bottom line is simple. The level of ignorance about the MI industry and the professional music world shown here is extraordinary. EVERYONE is totally entitled to an opinion, as controversial or divisive as it may be, but at LEAST always come at things from a place of knowledge and experience. The worst thing is simply that he creates an aura of such knowledge and authority on the subject matter but hasn't the first clue of what goes into producing and bringing a synth to market and how they are then used in a professional environment. He's all of a sudden more bothered about getting the "clicks"! Up until now I've mainly enjoyed Espen's view of synths and tech, mainly because being a similar age we have had much of the same experiences when using the same vintage of synths, but I don't know what he's been smoking or why he suddenly wants to talk bollocks but so much of this video is simply rubbish. Please Espen, just go back to making videos about specific '80's synths that you've bought, OR talk to some people actually IN the industry, THEN come back and make a follow up video to this.

[@EspenKraft]

I describe you in the beginning of the video. It's spot on.

[@tyunwin3858]

@@EspenKraft I produce no music?

[@zxy7529]

@@EspenKraftWILD to say that about Ty Unwin 😂😂😂

[@joerg721]

Espen, are you alright?

[@mattevans7884]

@@EspenKraft Ty never STOPS making music. Your argument is invalid.

[@davidjoelstephens]

"...And what's up with that display? It's big if you're a BUG!" - Dead, immediately - Subscribed, proudly. Bravo!

[@dingbatjack1234]

You do realize the synths you said are not analog ARE fully analog. Every synth with patch memory has a computer…. Duhhhhh. The 3rd wave has analog filters and drive. Forgot to mention that of course 🤦‍♂️

[@denistunguz]

And so does the Polybrute if I'm not mistaken!

[@deepnlow808]

Comparing hardware and software products this way completely misses the point. It’s not about the final product. They each serve a unique purpose. It's like arguing that going paintballing is pointless because Call of Duty exists.

[@ennayanne]

but he never said hardware synths are pointless because software synths exists

[@chipchasm]

everyone has their false equivalences!

[@Flat8G]

I have 10-ish Behringer devices, so far only one has acted up slightly. Dont think the quality is that bad. I have had broken synths from many manufacturers before. 😀

[@Wagoo]

I probably own 90% of their synth hardware from early release.. the only issue I've had is a coloured knob cap coming unglued on a 2500 module.. which was a 2 minute fix

[@s.gharavi1614]

I love the Behringer gear.

[@Rayterni]

Which one acted up?

[@amethystlegion]

The best part is you can just buy two spares and still be under a grand. And they sound very, very close to the originals. And in some cases, are even better made than the originals.

[@mrkrotosuk]

@@amethystlegion HAHAHAH! You win best comment for today :P

[@exploringjapan2452]

Funny he says this with a sequential synth in the background.

[@LeoMrz]

I started playing synths last year, YT has been my main source of info but after a couple months the synth trend mafia was hard to not notice. Brands, well they gotta profit, and as a beginner hobbyist I’ve been forced to research before buying because of a limited budget, but Espen is definitely one of the few synth artists whose word I trust, mostly because he does make music. Thanks for speaking the truth Esperen Kraft.

[@whatsthemonsterbelow]

Take my advice as a composer for 25 years, you will sell all the gear other than the basics eventually. If you can make money with it, you should buy it. If not, don't. Unless it's a hobby, then that all up to you

[@pablo_costas]

I think you're spot-on about manufacturers capitalizing on perceptions of 'high-end' gear but I am going to have to disagree with the surface mount components and digital control arguments. SMT improves manufacture reliability of electronics, you can have a full analog synth with SMT. Thinking that because an analog circuit is built with THT sounds better than with SMT is getting into cork sniffing territory. Digitally controlled circuits are also a good improvement to have, the circuit does not care if the control voltage comes from your hand turning a knob or from a DAC controlled by a microcontroller/processor.

[@jason.martin]

So the digital LFOs and envelopes are just controlling the analogue OSC, its not that the sounds from the OSC gets converted into digital and runs through the envelopes then back out to analogue? just asking for more understanding on this, thanks !

[@bblix]

@@jason.martin Just controlling, generating voltages to control the analog circuitry. Oberheim Expander and Matrix 12 were among the first that used this technique. Saves money and adds flexibility.

[@pablo_costas]

@@jason.martin synthesizers stages are designed so their parameters can be voltage controlled, so it can be connected to other stages like: modulation sources or direct control, like a knob or a fader. Werther that modulation comes from another analog block or a microcontroller's DAC is irrelevant to the sound because the stage just "sees" a control voltage.

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

I find strange the notion that it's not possible to construct analog circuitry using SMD components. SMD is just a packaging size for electronic components.

[@jason.martin]

@@bblix great thanks for the reply!

[@alphabeets]

The problem with soft synths is they eventually just fail as the computers and their OS obsoletes them.

[@-KingOfKhaos]

They usually last for a generation (figure 10 years) at which point the computer itself becomes outdated. The solution is to simply hold the old version of the VST’s you really like on the older / outdated computer or Mac, and simply patch that computer into your new computer / DAW if you happen to really need that outdated VST. Everyone wins. You’d have to update your computer for other reasons anyway, so it isn’t like you would be holding onto a 10 or 15 year old computer or Mac and not be purchasing a new one no matter what. But it IS fair to say that yes, many VST’s do update and make older versions obsolete over time. The only workaround is to make sure you keep at least one version of the VST you like someplace safe either on an external drive or the hard drive of the computer / Mac that originally was able to run that synth to begin with.

[@loupasternak]

fail? lololololololooll.. you must be a hard synth seller

[@hdslave]

My oldest plugins from 2006 work just as well today as they did back then

[@chipchasm]

@@hdslaveword up doggie! im rocking some 20 year old korg vsts daily in a room filled with of hardware synths!

[@chipchasm]

@@-KingOfKhaoscouldnt be further from the truth. im starting to question if we all have anuses, because clearly we don’t all have opinions

[@kows8239]

It would have been great if you could have provided some actual data to substantiate your claim. Having built a diy polysynth the costs of electronic components can go way above 1200$ Not taking in account the design and build process. Assuming synth manufacturers are scammers is wild and disrespectful. Or did I miss something?

[@cloudseer]

Scale

[@spazkong]

I'm completely on board with what you're saying, although laughably within this context, I did purchase a Roland Jupiter X and a Behringer Poly D and bizarrely, amongst my sizable collection of real vintage synths, they have become my favourites, apart from the Korg Polysix. That's still my favourite. The Jupiter X is a quality instrument and very road ready and the Poly D sounds lovely for the price. I wouldn't buy a real Moog Model D because of the price and my infrequent usage of mono synths. It's good to share opinions of which, none of yours are wrong. Give that Jupiter X a deep dive though. I think you'd be surprised!

[@playeveryday01]

The modular folks are asking about their $999 VCO module. You also have a point some of these are scams, like the Korg Opsix SE and OP 1 Field.

[@odyconstantinou9340]

The margins are thin for hardware synth manufacturers. No boutique company is making a huge, unreasonable profit per unit. Development costs are high. A "scam" is intentional. You can't just use the word incorrectly and defend this misuse with "I'm 100% true to my inner dictionary." But why am I responding, it's obvious what you're up to. :)

[@EspenKraft]

I can do and say exactly what I want. Say my name.

[@christophertodman]

"Reply in comments with long essays" lol. Yeah that's a great line. You go boy! Had a ton, now almost none.

[@marcanglin7127]

"Your mother-in-law's taxidermy" !!!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Nenko_Music]

yea man haha!

[@samprock]

I’m sure it was a fine trolling of B manufacturer 😂

[@mmrva]

See JX-08 review.

[@clarencejeyofficial]

Couldn’t agree more. I think even my Prophet 10 Rev4 almost fits this category. Thank goodness for my 1973 MiniMoog, MemoryMoog, JD800 and DX7 as well as the old 80s samplers. It’s all about the converters and filters.

[@rabarebra]

The psychological effect of "something has value if it cost more" is known as the Veblen effect.

[@prodigalretrod]

This stance just feels a bit needlessly confrontational to me. I get the underlying message, but the word "scam" just doesn't seem applicable. The fact that some generous developers offer their plugins for free doesn't detract from the value of hardware. It's all about workflow for me, whether that's with a well-designed plugin or well-designed hardware, and we are lucky to live in an age where there is an abundance of both.

[@gasparpini]

It's not just about the sound. The experience of creating a patch in a plugin is very different from that of creating a patch in real instruments. The 3 Wave, for example, is a 23-polyphony with high-quality analog filters. It's not a scam. Most of the time, it's the real cost for a small company to produce and develop these instruments. If you can't afford it, that's fine. But calling it a scam is going too far. The way you're talking, you're devaluing the dedication someone had to develop these instruments. Please try to spread peace and good vibes. Your videos often have themes that attack certain people or companies. It's okay to have these opinions, but you could make videos that are much more enriching and interesting for everyone than one like this that will generate controversy. You have many talents with music that can help many. Peace!

[@stevesm2010]

Good Video Espen. I do agree to an extent, but whatever your accuracy, thank you for giving us pause to think and evaluate objectively.

[@alfiedj]

Great video essay. I was engaged from start to end. Made me re-evaluate pulling the trigger for a hardware synth. Thank you for saving my walllet. Much appreciated. 🙏

[@cgmatthews777]

I was wondering when someone would release this kind of video. We are at the peak of G.A.S. in the synth world, and synth prices have become ridiculous. You're right though... musicians are the easiest people to market to, and we all fall victim of it. Behringer's pricing proves it doesn’t have to be this way. Sure, it's mass-produced on a PCB in China, but does building it by hand somewhere else justify a 10-20x price hike? I got my Model D for $160 instead of paying $5K for vintage gear that's 50 years old and falling apart! Sure, the argument for R&D costs: Let’s say you spend $1M on salaries and prototypes. You could price it with a $1000 markup, sell 1,000 units, and break even (like ASM does), or jack the price up $5K and pray a few rich collectors bite (3rdWave's approach). I suppose debt is temporary and flex is forever, right? Josh Scott at JHS said it best in a video a while back: Behringer is Sweetwater's top seller by a mile. No one's saying you should make cheap junk, but when you price fairly, people respond. Great video, Espen! But we might have to fight about my Muse though :)

[@peterschroedl4878]

nearly spit out my coffee @ "save up for your mother-in-law's taxidermy"

[@shapeshifta3431]

how can you speak on whether something is overpriced without having worked for one of these synth manufacturers and being in a role where you would be aware of component/operation costs?

[@Ziyoblader]

That is irrelevant at the end of the day the customer is always right if they feel the materials are cheap compared to the other market they are cheap regardless of how it's made if it really is that hard to make the manufacturers should rethink their manufacturing process the business world is tough you have to adapt and don't stay too comfortable or you sink

[@yanickborg3118]

Because it's overpriced in relation to the market. I.e. if your synth company is working too hard to build VST boxes, and transfers your costs onto buyers, then your economic rationale needs to be shut down. Simple as that. One needn't be in the manufacturing game to gain this insight.

[@peterjones596]

Yup, absolutely! People thought I was mad when I bought a Roland MKB 300 mother keyboard "It doesn't make any sound" they said.. Then I bought an MKS 80 and MKS10, so now I've got a Jupiter 8 clone (it's not, it's a jupiter 6 with 8 voices, I've had a Jupiter 8 and it's top and bottom end really mark it out).. But now I've sold the MKS 80 and the Jupiter 8 and can clone them via software, and the difference is? Sonically, nothing worth talking about, but weight and space-wise, huge. I also now own a Jupiter 80 and a System 8, the 80 has amazing playability and will easily fool those unaware that it's a double bass, flute, grand piano, etc due to how it transfers the way you play a note, and the System 8 is great for cloning Jupiter 8's and Moogs, with the joy of tweaking those knobs live... The latest flagship won't improve your music, nor even the sounds you can make, but getting two decent synths together will definitely enhance your sonic capabilites, add a plug-in, and away you go! I've not looked on the Roland soundcloud, but if I can get a Fantom clone that's the way I'm heading, sampling is my next move, but not in thae way you'd expect... Oh, and experiment with what you've got, throw away the manual and get imaginitive, eg a roland D20 years ago.. We pitch-shifted a standard Roland handclap down using the bender . God, it's heavy and sounds like a machine gun doing a short burst.. Do you really need that new toy?

[@taxmoneyyy]

What Espen is saying is that those hardware synths are overpriced. He's not saying they don't sound great, but their prices are over the top. Discussing pricing is never an easy thing (can't simply measure it against production cost; have to factor in risk, market, demand, brand image, etc.). At the end of the day, flagship synths are luxury products -and you will never ever rationnally justify any prices for luxury

[@rabarebra]

Back in the day, these synths wasn't luxury. Prices were modest. Now in this computer-age, buying these are just dumb and ridiculous.

[@taxmoneyyy]

@@rabarebra you can't be serious? Did you check how expensive an oberheim was back in the day? Even in yesterday's money, it was 5-figure and up

[@rabarebra]

@@taxmoneyyy Yep, but in the end of the 80s people were giving them away, because the new polyphonic synths of the likes of (examples giving) DX7 and D50 was the new sh!t.

[@taxmoneyyy]

@@rabarebra They were not really giving them away and the prices you are referring to mostly owed to the second hand market. That same second hand market that was moving Juno-60s for $400 is now pushing them for $2,500 and up: should we blame people for selling at a price they can get out of other people? Again, discussing pricing is irrelevant honestly. You can't really tell what is a "fair" price for both the seller and the buyer, unless the answer is "whatever amount they both agreed on", in which case you can't blame Oberheims for pushing Ob-x8 for $5,000

[@rabarebra]

@@taxmoneyyy Prices goes up and down. Actually I don't care about hardware synths. I'd like an analogue one, though. Like the CS80. Should've bought it in the end of the 80s. Now it is too expensive because of the collectors market. Modern synths, hell no, they not worth anything. Sounds sh!t, digital and sterile. Remember Vangelis latest records how bad they sound compared to his old stuff because of the sh1tty hardware he used in the end?

[@100DollarHeadache]

Honestly, I feel a control surface is worth something over having an all-in-the-box solution. Regarding the tight tuning of modern VCO analogs, the tightness of tuning is only for the better when audio rate modulation is in play.

[@j_c_93]

Someone should just make a beautiful keyboard with a screen that just runs a basic OS/DAW, that you can load VSTs into. Basically a midi controller with a built in operating system and can run any vst. Then you can play whatever vst you want anywhere without a separate machine Maybe it already exists, idk

[@manuelwatts1864]

​@@j_c_93 - Possibly the Korg OASYS would qualify as such?

[@robertfoose9453]

@@j_c_93 Let us know if you find one...I've had the same dream for years!

[@j_c_93]

@manuelwatts1864 maybe, I'll look into it! The closest thing I know of is the new Arturia Astrolab, although obviously you can only use Arturia software. I'm imagining something that you can literally drag and drop any VST on to. A product like that could make a lot of money, I'd think.

[@TonyAndersonMusic]

I own 5 Behringer synthesizers and 6 of them have broken.

[@LunaticDandy]

I own 7 pieces of Uli gear (3 synths, 1 DM, some ER and the rest is processing gears). There's only one I bought from a thrift store (back when they made bad stuff) that does not work well anymore. All the others are impeccable. Bad luck or luck ? (I'm absolutly not a "fan" or even worst a "commercial" for this company)

[@fredrikh9299]

Wow, how did the 6th break down? Dementia?

[@reddragonrespect]

What did you with them. Even my 25 years old mixer works fine. While allen shit was already repaired 3 times...

[@TonyAndersonMusic]

@@fredrikh9299Your mom sat on it and broke it

[@TonyAndersonMusic]

@@reddragonrespectI added extra analogue tubes to it and it broke!

[@luv.matters]

Plugin prices are even more ridiculous doing the same thing lol

[@gadjox]

Some are expensive, some are actually cheap for the amount of work. Synths are cheap, some effects are overpriced af. 150$ for a plugin compressor is overpriced af, but the same for Diva would be more than reasonable.

[@luv.matters]

@@gadjox Even UAD dropped their prices dramatically cause there is no business and they are the best compared to others. However, I called it, they would drop their prices to compete with the other companies. Waves have always been king with sales only because to combat piracy and Plugin Alliance followed suit.

[@RayR]

@@luv.matters Thanks to you I found out UAD dropped their prices. They were to much for a long time...but now even with the lower prices Im really happy with my plugins from other vendors, so I don't see a need UAD anymore.

[@williammchugh4361]

Depends. If you’re savy you can get what I consider Killer Deals on vst. I bought the Arturia collection on a Black Friday deal and for $250 got like 10 different keyboards + other stuff. After, Auturia came out with an updated collection with added new keys including the Ensoniq Sq-80 (I had to have as an Ensoniq fanboy) and 3 others I didn’t have. Because I already bought the collection, they gave me an upgrade deal of $100 which I grabbed immediately. That’s $25 for an SQ-80. $25 for a CZ-1000 etc. that’s a no brainer for their quality. I do think Roland and Korg charge too much for their collections but I previously received all the Korgs with a Korg controller for free. You have to watch for crazy deals, they are out there.

[@luv.matters]

@@williammchugh4361 Ha, sweet!! I have every plugin bundle you can think of, I'm a plugin hoarder, however, I still have my dad's equipment, and they win over any plugin any day. The plugin's sound is thin and does not have that warm round low-end to the sound #bottom #lowend

[@SlikkTim]

Man, you just told rich people their pricey toys are useless, especially for what they do with it. Prepare for the hatred.

[@Mclennnan]

Finally somebody is saying what needs to be said.

[@irondragonrides]

I have a few of the synths you listed including the 3rd Wave (That I paid less then half of the $7k you quoted, btw). Of all that I had the Hydrasynth was the only one I got rid of because of the sound quality, which was not good to me, and no other reason. So the only part I agree with you on is listen with your ears. I once tried to go all software, but the interaction with the computer only was horrendous in the long run and I quickly returned to true hardware interfaces.