The ten-year legal battle over an umlaut

[@gast9374]

brewboss brings it to the point!

[@lonestarr1490]

Nice one!

[@compphysgeek]

two points

[@minirop]

"the two dots mean nothing in America" all metal bands when they arrive in Germany: "why do they pronounce our name incorrectly???"

[@mizapf]

If it is a part of your language, and has even a grammatical impact as in German, it is almost impossible for a native speaker to ignore it. So you see Mötley Crüe and involutarily read "/mœtli krye/" in your mind. The same happened with Sacha Baron Cohen's film "Brüno" which people in Germany pronounced with the umlaut (which sounds somewhat French), like /bry'no:/ instead of the intended /bru:no:/.

[@minirop]

@@mizapf I was thinking about Mötley Crüe specifically. I read an interview from them saying they were surprised when the audience was chanting they name wrong during a concert.

[@not-a-theist8251]

queensrÿche

[@popogast]

@@not-a-theist8251 Motörhead.

[@uncinarynin]

@@minirop If they use dots they better know how it modifies the way their name is pronounced! I always say Mötley Crüe with the ö and ü.

[@hansberger4939]

you re the only vlogger of this immigrant to germany topic that is reaching real depth in insight.

[@gerdforster883]

Having been to the Hofbräuhaus and knowing Dresden, I guess this is one of those cases where both parties should be found guilty.

[@rewboss]

It's a civil case: there's no "guilty" and "innocent" here, just a "this is what needs to happen now".

[@hansberger4939]

@@rewboss a very German reply. How long have you been here for?

[@johaquila]

@@hansberger4939 Or a very English one: assuming that it can't be a joke because it comes from a German. Or a very meta one that combines English and German humour but in this case is too dry to really work on the Internet: Pretending to assume that it can't be a joke because it comes from a German.

[@beeble2003]

@@hansberger4939 Sinec 1993, he says in another video that I watched earlier today.

[@hansberger4939]

@@johaquila why didnt you listen to him?

[@Sleeping_Insomiac]

Trademarking common words should have never happened in the first place.

I agree. And I'm looking at you, Microsoft, and your windows.

[@minirop]

@ Apple, blackberry, raspberry pi, a French telecommunications company is called orange (like the colour, not the fruit)

[@sion8]

You know colors are also trademark-able as well among other things. However, yes, but supposedly they have to be clearly marked as such hence ™ as a symbol.

[@maclypse]

Right? Wouldn't it be nice if the courts would just acknowledge that hofbrauhaus and hofbräuhaus are too generic to be trademarked? Considering how many hofbräuhause Germany has, this trademark should never ever have been allowed to begin with. As a similar example, most countries would never allow a trademark on "Grand Hotel" since every city has at least one of those. Simple solution: invalidate the trademark. Done. How does that drag out 10 years?

[@naruciakk]

To be honest, I don't see that argument. I mean, the word might be common in one market, but its usage be quite unusual in the other. A greengrocer's named “Apple” is definitely not to be mistaken with a computer company “Apple” (or with another greengrocer's in another town), but another computer company with this name - certainly is.

[@PauxloE]

Near my place of work (near the Berlin Ring-Bahn) there was a small restaurant named "Burger-Ring". After complaints, they've renamed it to "Thron-Burger".

[@ppd3bw]

A restaurant in my town, specialized in cutlets, called itself "Schnitzel und Schampus". They were forced into a lawsuit with the owner of the brand "Champagne". They renamed into "...und Scampi" but closed soon after.

[@YPOC]

Für mich ist der Unterschied eigentlich recht klar, zumindest im direkten Vergleich: Hofbräu-Haus ist das Haus, dass *das* Bier des Hofes produziert. Hof-Brauhaus ist ein Brauhaus eines Hofes, das *irgendein* Bier produziert.

[@palomino73]

So halb einverstanden; "Höfbräuhaus ist das Haus, in welchelm lediglich das Bier (das Ge_*bräu*_) einer Brauerei mit höfischem Bezug ausgeschenkt wird, eine Prdoktion an diesem Ort ist so noch nicht indiziert - in einem Brauhaus hingegen - mit oder ohne "Hof"-Präfix - wird nur gebraut.

[@arthur_p_dent]

@@palomino73 eins ist jedenfalls klar, YPOC hat die zusammengesetzten Substantive richtig aufgedröselt - es kann nur Hofbräu-Haus bzw Hof-Bauhaus sein, denn die Komposita "Hofbrau" und "Bräuhaus" gibt es nicht.

[@orange13]

@@palomino73 genau so sehe bzw. verstehe ich es auch. Dennoch geht es ja um das Wort ansich und ohne Bindestriche. Und vor allem, wie rewboss ja erklärt hat, in einem internationalen Kontext, bei dem diese Feinheiten der deutschen Sprache nicht verstanden werden

[@fraso7331]

Irrtum. Die Vorsilbe "Hof-" stellt einen Titel dar, der der Funktionsbeschreibung eines Betriebes vorangestellt werden durfte, wenn es den Hof des jeweiligen Monarchen belieferte oder vom Monarchen besonders ausgezeichnet werden sollte. Die Bestimmungen differierten natürlich, damit es nicht zu einfach ist und nicht überall war die Vorsilbe geschützt. Daher ist das Hofbrauhaus wohl auch nur mit Ortsangabe markenfähig, wie bei Hofkellerei und Hofschneiderei. Das Problem mit dem Hofbräuhaus ist, dass dieses klar mit München verbunden und damit als Marke zugelassen wurde. Nun ist Hofbrauhaus sehr ähnlich. Und da gibt es das Problem, dass Marken sich unterscheiden müssen und die Verwendung in Dresden sich ohne offizielle Bestätigung kaum auf eine lange Jahrzehnte unterbrochene Tradition berufen kann. Wegen der Rechte der Bundesländer als Rechtsnachfolger der jeweiligen Fürstentümer sowie verbriefter Rechte einiger Bistümer dürfte es noch komplizierter werden, wenn die Richterin eine klarere Norm sucht. Es könnte nämlich sein, dass der Name in Dresden gar nicht geführt werden darf. Dann bräuchte sie gar nicht erst auf das Markenrecht eingehen. Wenn es da in Sachsen was gibt, könnte es der Richterin die Arbeit erleichtern, während es die Erklärung verkomplizierte. Und der Freistaat könnte sogar den Titel als staatliche Auszeichnung wieder einführen oder auf staatliche Betriebe beschränken. Denn Hofbrauhaus ist ein Homonym ("Teekesselchen"). Und da könnt ihr wieder über Etymologie diskutieren. Aber dieser Beitrag ist so schon zu lang.

[@hansberger4939]

Das "Hof-" bedeutet nicht Teil des königl. Hofes oder sowas, es bedeutet "Hoflieferant". Und wer vor 100 Jahren in D mal das Privileg hatte, einen Hof beliefern zu dürfen, der gibt heute noch damit an. BtW: natürlich gibt es ein "Bräuhaus".

[@LordLanghaar]

Im pretty sure those two words were created in two different ways. Hofbrauhaus is a Brauhaus specified with Hof, so a special kind of Brauhaus. Hofbräuhaus, is a Building for Hofbräu, so that the Hof just describes the Bräu and not the Haus. You can see it as Hof-Brauhaus and Hofbräu-Haus

[@ardenitalia]

Hof here refers to (different) royal courts, so Hofbräuhaus is the (a?) building where the royal beer is brewed, while Hofbrauhaus is a beer brewery with royal assent. Semantically it's the same thing since in both cases you have to brew royal beer in a royal brewery. That paired with the fact that the words are really really similar, even if differently derived, make the linguistic case pretty weak, sadly.

[@hendrikhardeman9832]

@Lord 🤦🏻‍♂️ You don't speak German and you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

[@LordLanghaar]

@@hendrikhardeman9832 tut mir leid, ich bin deutscher Muttersprachler. Ich war nur so frei mich der Sprache des Videos anzupassen. Und warum ist in deinen Augen meine Aussage falsch?

[@hendrikhardeman9832]

@@LordLanghaar Brauhaus = Brauerei Bräu = 1. Bier 2. Brauerei Ein Hofbräuhaus soll ein Gebäude für Hofbräu sein? Und was wäre der Zweck dieses Gebäudes wenn es keine Brauerei ist?

[@LordLanghaar]

@@hendrikhardeman9832 Mein Punkt ist aber, dass die Wortherkunft sehr verschieden ist, nicht die Bedeutung, die ist eh verschwommen. Da beide Wörter aus jeweils 3 einzelwörtern bestehen ist hier die Reihenfolge relevant, in der diese zusammensetzt wurden. Und die ist unterschiedlich. Das eine basiert auf Hofbräu, einem Getränk, das andere auf Brauhaus, einem Gebäude. Du könntest es auch so sagen. Das eine ist die königliche Biermanufaktur, das andere ist das Gebäude des königliche Bieres. Am Ende kommt das so ziemlich auf dasselbe raus, aber eben nicht ganz. So wäre zum Beispiel jede Biersorte, die aus dem Hofbrauhaus kommt eine königliche, beim Hofbräuhaus kann dagegen nur Hofbräu hergestellt werden.

[@AleaumeAnders]

Video suggestion: rewboss singing all eurovision grandprix winning songs.

[@dansattah]

I would love to hear his version of "Hard Rock Halleluja"!

[@AleaumeAnders]

@@dansattah Or Wadde hadde dude da :D Or even better: "Rewboss hat euch liiieb".

[@ElectronTinkerer]

Better even, he sings all the Finnish ESC contributions as HaPe Kerkeling once did.

[@popogast]

Please don't!

[@fnaaijkens69]

And here am I, thinking it's Hofbräu-haus and Hof-Brauhaus. A haus (also Ausschänke) where you can get a royally acclaimed brew, and a Brewery (Brauhaus) that has a royal recognition "royal" brewery.. sssnot the same!! 🎉

[@uncinarynin]

.... before I start to sing: "In München steht ein Hofbräuhaus, Oans zwoa xuffa!"

[@ronaldderooij1774]

In the Netherlands it is also confusing. Some companies have an addition to their name "Hofleverancier" (supplier of the court). But it does not mean it supplies the King's court. It is just a matter of appreciation by someone that the King approves of. We also have a prefix to a companies' name "koninklijke" (Royal) which means the same, except that it is the King/Queen that personally has to approve. So it is deemed a bit more honourable. By the way, the Royal Dutch Shell was just stripped of "Royal" because it moved its HQ to the UK for tax reasons.

[@marcelldavis4809]

This reminds me of the dispute between the two Budweiser breweries (one American and one Czech), which has been ongoing since 1907. While the former trademarked the name "Budweiser" in 1876, the later is actually located in the town of Budweis and has been brewing there since the 13th century. Both have exclusive rights to the name "Budweiser" in different countries around the world. Another similar story of two companies with an ongoing dispute about the same name, and maybe closer to this channel's theme, is that of the two pharma companies named Merck (the German Merck KGaA, called EMD in the US and Canada, and the American Merck & Co., called MSD in the rest of the world). Both were once the same company, but the American branch split of in the wake of WW2 and became an independent company that is now about twice as big as its twin.

[@johaquila]

There were several such issues in Germany after reunification. One of the most important was the company founded by Carl Zeiss in 1846. Shortly after the Second World War the company was mostly carried off by the Russians, and the remainder was socialized by East Germany. However, Jena had initially been occupied by the US Army, which deported the management and much of the leading staff of the company westward before the exchange of territory that simplified the occupation zones and brought Jena under Russian influence. That's why in 1946 the old management started a new company with essentially the same name in West Germany. After reunification the split was a problem for the short time until, like most East German companies, the East German Carl Zeiss was destroyed to get rid of competition. West German Carl Zeiss approached the problem by buying important parts of the East German one. Nowadays they have part of their semiconductor branch in Jena. (The East German Carl Zeiss had already built East Germany's first computer in 1955.)

[@TheBlackForestClockShop]

I traveled to Czechlivokiak (at the time it was) in 2000 where I first heard of the parallel. I think the brewery that brews the best beer should hold title rights and in my opinion it's unmistakably the Czech brewery. American Budweiser company doesn't even come close! Perhaps Anheuser-Busch should consider taking up dispute with bottled water trademarks. lol

[@Hand-in-Shot_Productions]

I'm aware of the American Budweiser, but I didn't know about the Czech one! Are they going to settle their dispute any time soon? Also, if any of you are wondering, the German Merck's (founded in 1668) "EMD" acronym stands for "Emanuel Merck, Darmstadt", while the American Merck's (founded in 1917, during World War I) "MSD" acronym means "Merck Sharp and Dohme". Curious how the spinoff becomes much larger than the original! Thanks for the information!

[@publicminx]

apropos: all those famous Czech breweries were also found by Germans back then which could already recognized by names like Anhaeuser-Busch, Lager, Budweiser etc...

[@andyarken7906]

Then there's "Champagne" as the champagne from France, and the wine from the Champagne region in Switzerland. EU forbid the Swiss people from using the name of their own region to name their own wine. Both are a bit different from Hofbrauhaus and Hofbräuhaus of course, because the names are actually identical.

[@piotrsajuk6435]

Now that's something interesting to watch at 1 AM before sleep! Definitely an interesting story, thanks for sharing it

[@martj.1350]

At least for me as a Bavarian there is a difference between „Brauhaus“ and „Bräuhaus“. Brauhaus obviously means brewery, while „Bräu“ is Bavarian for „brewer or owner of a brewery/ i.e. publican“ (this meaning is even on German Wikipedia). So „Hofbräuhaus“ literally is the “Royal court brewer’s house” not the “Royal brewery”(Hofbrauhaus). Granted, it’s a linguistic detail, but then what isn’t ?

[@ppd3bw]

Good explanation - not many native German speakers know the difference (me included). Still the name is a registered brand now long since and a copy with only a small variation is an infringement without discussion.

[@countluke2334]

Doesn't convince me. That differentiation is so marginal it makes almost no difference at all. I think it's the Bavarian dialect which sometimes has a slight lautverschiebung, and especially so in favour of umlauts.

[@yusoirate]

Agreed. I'm from a small village with a local brewery in Lower Bavaria. The brewery's owner is commonly referred to as "Bräu". To an extent that most people wouldn't call him by his given name but simply call him Bräu. "I went to the pub with Bräu last night", everybody would know who you're talking about.

[@sleepingcity85]

But "Bräu" is not (high) german, its bavarian. Nobody outside of Bavaria somebody would use it in the way. The question would remain if "Brauhaus" would not mean the same as "Bräuhaus", since the "Brauer" is the brewer. "Brauhaus" could be the exact same meaning as "Bräuhaus". Our "Brauhäuser" (plural, just to confuse english readers) at least work the same as the "Bräuhaus" in Munich. Just without the Ä. After all, there is another word for brewery "Brauerei" and we dont use that as synonyms to "Brauhaus". In a "Brauerei" beer is geetting brewed, in a "Brauhaus" brewed beer is getting served, mostly produced in the same building/nearby (but thats not a must tbh).

[@sleepingcity85]

@@yusoirate Yeah and in the rest of the country that is called "Brauer".Which result in the combination of "Brauer" + "Haus" = "Brauhaus".

[@robertnett9793]

To elaborate a bit on the 'Hof' part of the word. As Andrew said it was part of a royal court. That's right in a way, but a bit confusing. So here goes: courts need stuff. Clothing, cutlery, tableware, beer of course and so on. And craftsmen, tailors, brewers who were chosen by their respective court to deliver their goods there, were allowed to put the 'Hof' in their name. To emphasize they were official suppliers of their king, count or whoever was in charge there. Which implies their goods were pretty high quality. In some cases it were businesses directly controlled by the court, sometimes it were contracted craftsmen.

[@Danny30011980]

In UK the royal family also have their trusted court supplier businesses. In the discussed dispute that HB is creating I can only say also Saxony once probably had a court with August der starke ruling and under the points you mentioned, if some business delivered goods to the court they would qualify to use the term "Hof" in their title

[@robertnett9793]

@@Danny30011980 It's been a while, but yes, Saxony had a court. The question is, if they were a trusted business by that court...

[@muellerhans]

Well when you explained that the founded in the 19th century thing was misleading I understood why the judge suggested a name change.

[@johaquila]

If I understood this correctly, the claim wasn't that it was founded in the 19th century but that it was founded in 1972. I.e. in East Germany.

[@Hand-in-Shot_Productions]

This is an interesting legal battle! A Court Brewery versus a Court Brew-House... over one letter! Thanks for the information! Also, nice singing at the end!

[@jhonbus]

It seems to me an even more flagrant infringement than your Burger Queen example. Like opening a burger place called MacDonald's instead of McDonalds.

[@relgeiz2]

"Burger Kong" might be a good analogy. Or "Bürger King".

[@x42brown]

In Scotland there have been more than one argument of reasturants and chip shops named MacDonald's and the burger chain. None of them were burger bars and at least one of them was over 100 years old.

[@bluebillbo]

In Ireland there is a long established burger chain called "Supermac's" who were sued by McDonald's and won.

[@seneca983]

On the other hand, MacDonald and McDonald have an identical pronunciation unlike Brau and Bräu. I wonder what would happen if you named your burger place "Donaldson's".

[@rogink]

My favourite rip off takeaways: McTuckys and Kansas Fried Chicken. I'm sure I passed a 'King Burger' fast food gaff in Manchester once.

[@risvegliato]

I seem to remember something similar between Budweiser (the USA fizzy lager) and Budweiser Budvar (Czech i think)?

[@talideon]

Budvar is just the export name. In the Czech Republic, they use the proper name. US Budweiser is basically a bad knock-off of Czech pilsners by a bunch of Germans who nicked the name. It's one of the things in the world that would've been very different had Czechoslovakia not ended up behind the Iron Curtain.

[@seneca983]

And it depends on the country which company is allowed to use the name "Budweiser".

[@nlpnt]

@@talideon Anheuser-Busch has been wanting to buy the state-owned Czech Budweiser brewery to get clear name rights for 30 years but the government won't sell - Czech never went through a period of ideologically-driven privatization like eastern Germany did and its' consistently run at a profit to taxpayers.

[@tzveeble1679]

Brauhaus is an industrial installation. Bräu is both, production and social venue, like Stieglbräu, Müllner Bräu, usw.

[@tobiw2179]

I think the exact linguistic difference lies in the evolution of the compound. Stemming from the root brauen, the äu is only necessary with a certain vowel in front of it in a compound, such as in Hofbräu, the brewing department of/associated with an aristocratic court. If that brewing department has a pub, this would add "-haus" to the compound: Hofbräu-haus. On the other hand, Brauhaus just means brewery. If that is associated with a court for some reason, you may add "Hof-" : Hof-brauhaus. As the Hof- is a later addition, it doesn't seem to have caused a vowel change in the already existing compound. So the difference is which part of the word is the primary and which is the secondary compound, which one was only added later to specify the meaning of the existing compound.

[@talideon]

So, „Hof(brauhaus)” vs „(Hofbrau)haus”

[@Galenus1234]

I think you are on the right track to analyze the two words in two different ways as (Hofbräu)haus and Hof(brauhaus). I only differ from your opinion on where the umlaut in HofBRÄUhaus comes from. Rewboss mentioned the origin of several umlauts as being the result of a neighboring vowel influencing the original non-umlaut vowel. But I don't think that this is what happened here. A "Bräu" is something that has been brewed (from German "brauen"). Both verbs are regular in contemporary German and English respectively (brauen, braute, gebraut; brew, brewed, brewed). But in Old English "breowan" (breaw, browen) was a strong verb. As far as i could find out brauen was a strong verb, too, in Old High German. So I suspect, that the mechanism behind the vowel change from brAUen to BrÄU is the same that we also see in English "song", with stems from sing (sang, sung).

[@ShadrolGER]

It is that one uses the verb and the other uses the noun derived from the verb to form the compound with different meaning. So we have "Hofbrauhaus" which is "Brauhaus" with the "Hof" added to "Brauhaus" which is formed from "brauen" ,the verb 'to brew', and "Haus". So the house in which brewing happens belonging to a court. So the 'court brewery'. But the "Hofbräuhaus" is "Hofbräu" with "Haus" added to it. "Hofbräu" being formed from "Hof" and "Bräu". A "Bräu" being either a "Gebräu", the brewed liquid or in Bavarian relating to the person dealing with "Gebräu" as a "Bräu" is a tavern keep or a brewer/brewery owner. So the "Hofbräuhaus" is the house in which "Hofbräu", the 'court beer', is found or is run by the "Hofbräu", the 'court brewer'.

[@tobiw2179]

Thanks for clarifying that. I guess I'm just one of those native speakers who never actually thought about how vowel changes work. With the the noun/verb difference included, the two are even more different than I thought.

[@sleepingcity85]

@@ShadrolGER thats not correct. The court brewery would still be the "Hofbrauerei" and not the "Hofbrauhaus". The latter one is the house of the brewer. It was common that the brewer welcomed guests and he would certainly dont welcome them to a (pure) factory. Your "Bräuhaus" is just a vowel change sound shift in Bavarian, thats all. Its literally the same meaning.

[@qwertyTRiG]

With IDNs, you can actually have most of the world's letters in domain names now. Yes, including Arabic, Cyrillic, and certainly German. But again, people may not know how to type them.

[@rewboss]

Well... kinda, although expecting non-Germans to install an international keyboard to be able to type "hofbräuhaus.de" or whatever is unhelpful. It's not the real domain name, though, because that can only be ASCII. The actual domain name would be "xn--hofbruhaus-u5a.de". IDNs add an extra overhead, because they have to be converted to ASCII.

[@qwertyTRiG]

@@rewboss And observe that KZbin didn't recognise the IDN and automatically make it a link, but it did recognise the punycode.

[@sion8]

@@rewboss I have a regular English (U.S.) virtual keyboard on my Android device, just by holding down some of the letters one can have Ä or Ç without installing anything new. I'm sure there are many people in the English-speaking world that don't know they can do that right now!

[@roland3668]

Your explanation is missing one point: 1. "Hofbräu" is the brand name of the beer. An abbreviation of Hof(ge)bräu. It means Beer brewed for/by the royal court. So Hofbräu-Haus is a house of the Hofbräu beer - a place where you can drink this beer. 2. "Brauhaus" is a place where beer is brewed. And Hof-Brauhaus is a brewery of a royal court or even of a farmyard. (Notice the two meanings of "Hof" - not sure if this is important in this case. And notice the difference between the brewery and a house where you can drink a specific beer.) So, it is definitely two different words with two different meanings. But of course there is a high risk of confusion when you connect the words to one word, which is quite common in German, and the only difference are two dots. A tricky case. Not easy to judge. But I guess HB will win because the property worth protecting is valued much higher.

[@blackraveness]

My respect for fighting through this tongue knotting text. 😃

[@jensschroder8214]

There was the company Carl Zeiss Jena and one Carl Zeiss West. When Germany was divided , the company's western branches had the name re-registered, but shortly thereafter the company was re-established in the eastern state. Carl Zeiss Lena used a different brand name because Carl Zeiss west was suing the other company. It was about the name and patents. In 1986 the companies finally came to an agreement. After German reunion Carl Zeiss West took over the company in Jena.

[@aksenov007bond]

Does anybody know what is the court decision?

[@enochliu8316]

They settled before the decistion was made.

[@christiankastorf1427]

"Gebräu": a brew. That word is mostly used to show contempt for any disgusting, evil smelling and obscure liquid that you are offered. "Was ist denn das für ein Gebräu? Igitt!" And nobody will ever say "Bräuhaus". A brewery is either a "Brauerei" or a "Brauhaus". "Hofbräuhaus" simply is the traditional, old name for that Munich institution.

[@christiankastorf1427]

Myth goes that many years ago a company that pumped out cesspits and sewage tanks happened to get the telephone number 4712. It decided to paint its tanks in a distinctive greenish colour and wrote the numbers 4712 onto their sides in beautifully styled white numbers. Some people in Cologne went to court and won.

[@sion8]

Huh?

[@michaelgrabner8977]

In Austria the term "Bräu" is refering to a "Brewer" = to a person and not to a "Brewery" = a location which is expressed with "Brau" and I think in Bavaria as well... So technically a "Bräuhaus" = literally "the brewer´s location/house for selling his brewed beer publically to end consumers = basically the term for "beer tavern run by an actual brewer" and technically in theory his brewery which is then a "Brauhaus" can be located anywhere but usually just purely out of convenience it is almost always at the same place - but because of the titel "Hof" - "the brewer" is also endorsed by the royal court in order to supply the royal court as well....and a "Hofbrauhaus" is technically just a simple brewery endorsed by the royal court for supplying the royal court but it is no "beer tavern"....I mean solely based on those terms and their actual meanings.

[@compphysgeek]

I would have thought Bräu comes from Gebräu

[@pla1nswalk3r]

I'd argue that it's not the problem of the Hofbrauhaus that the Hofbräuhaus uses its copyright inconsistently. So what if you use hofbrauhaus in your URL in played that don't know about Umlaute? That's not your copyright, is it?

[@rewboss]

This isn't about copyright; it's about trademarks. The rules are different.

[@omp199]

@@rewboss It doesn't make sense to me that the Hofbräuhaus, having trademarked that name, should also have rights over the name Hofbrauhaus, which even I, as someone who only studied German for one year at school thirty years ago, can see is a different word altogether. In the video, you seem to argue that part of the reason is that Americans might get confused. But that would apply to everything.

[@ppd3bw]

It was published recently that the dispute was settled, but no details were released. The (original Munich) HofbrÄuhaus gave a statement that they were happy with the solution found.

[@connectingthedots100]

Dresdener Brauhaus is so much more contemporary. I really think Hofbraeuhaus is so generic it should not be be copyrighted.

[@rewboss]

It's not copyrighted; it's a trademark.

[@Oddn7751]

your window view looks so much like my window view that it's actually freaking me out

[@isaacbobjork7053]

In Sweden we use åäö and often on flight tickets and other papers for use in other countries it is spelled aa ae and oe. My and my brother's surname is Bobjörk. When we were in Wales slme years ago we had rented a car over the internet. When we met up with the nice Irish gebtleman att the car rental in Holyhead he had trouble with figuring out why the name was spelt different in the car rental papers and the passport. He called his boss and after a while he said "Ah there is no E in it!" And we could go on our merry way to Llanberis and take the train up Mount Snowdon in time.

[@studiosnch]

Back in the mid-2010's, there was a chain of tech stores here that sold pretty much anything computer-related called "CD-R King", named as such since they originally sold recordable compact discs. Then lots of imitators came after, one of the most memorable to me was this local store calling itself "DVD Queen". But then cloud computing and larger mainstream stores like Octagon Computer and Micro Valley came, and so CD-R King (alongside its cheap products) and its million copycats became busted.

[@ohauss]

If the brewery was founded in 1872 but ceased to exist a century ago, then apparently, it barely lasted 50 years - so it's a bit of a stretch to call it a "local tradition".

[@Matahalii]

Fun fact: Hannover's most popular brewer was: Cord Broyhan. This looks like a combination of "Brew" and "Han" for Hannover, but he had this name before he studied brewing in Hamburg before 1524.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

I assume he also wasn't wearing anything made from cord.

[@eisikater1584]

Couldn't resist singing: In München steht ein Hofbräuhaus, oans, zwoa, gsuffa ...

[@wernerhiemer406]

"...luja, luja" on a harp in heaven by a guy named Alois.

[@bm5931]

The actually absurd thing is beeing able to trademark such a generc word as "Hofbräuhaus".

[@hansberger4939]

or microsoft.

[@omp199]

@@hansberger4939 Since when was "microsoft" a word?

[@SomePotato]

I always thought Bräuhaus was only a regional or older form of Brauhaus. And while I do love a good, traditional Brauhaus, it seems nowadays any Gaststätte can call themself Brauhaus. Tourism tipp: If you visit Cologne, visit the Päffgen Brauhaus. It's probably the most traditional Brauhaus in Cologne, serves good, hearty food and Päffgen is the best Kölsch beer you can get. Plus you can only get it fresh on tap here and in a handful of other places.

[@MetallicMutalisk]

In Finnish, ä and ö (and indeed, å, which is from Swedish but never used) are different letters altogether and I always found it simpler than the German way. The alphabet actually ends "x y z å ä ö", the three extra letters at the end.

[@not-a-theist8251]

Hooray and up she rises Hooray and up she rises Hooray and up she rises Early in the morning

[@gustavgans3760]

Shave his belly with a rusty razor Shave his belly with a rusty razor Shave his belly with a rusty razor Early in the morning

[@okaro6595]

It is enough that the trade mark is close enough to be confusing. The Finnish oil company Neste made some chocolate bars with its name for some internal event (not to be sold). This made Nestlé contact them for trademark violation.

[@BaluDerBaer933]

Haha, always entertaining and interesting videos from you! Some should every English-speaking German learner watch! ;-)

[@seneca983]

So either "Brauhaus" or "Bräuhaus" means "brewery". How can that be a part of a registered trademark for beer? Isn't that too generic?

[@tobyk.4911]

The trademark is not "Bräuhaus" but "Hofbräuhaus" ... that's surely much less generic then just Brau-. or Bräuhaus. The Hofbräuhaus in München is surely the most significant one in Bavaria... and I don't know if, before its expansion to an international franchise, the word Hofbräuhaus (with Umlaut) has been used outside of Bavaria at all.

[@PpVolto]

When the Hofbräuhaus registered its Trademark that Rule did not exist, and i think prior to the early 1600s that name was only a Title for the Brewery, that was awarded by the Ruler at the Time. No other Company was allowed to use "Hofbräuhaus" in its name when i am correct on my History lessions from 20+ Years ago. Since the Brewery was allowed to Brew for the Royal Court that then named Hofbräu, in 1520 the Ruler at the time established the Hofbräuhaus as the definitive Source of Beer for the Royal Court. Sidenote a Brauhaus/Bräuhaus was or is a reserved word for a Restaurant with a Brewery, since a Brewery was not allowed to serve food and a Restaurant was not Allowed to brew beer. Some of the older Bräuhauser where created via Mariage between a Brewers a Restaurants owners Children.

[@seneca983]

@@PpVolto Thanks for the info.

[@kieferngruen]

To call a beer Hofbräuhaus seems rather odd to me. The beer sold or made in a Hofbräu(or brau)haus is called Hofbräu. Just like for example the "Hofbräu München" or the "Stuttgarter Hofbräu". "Hofbräuhaus" is definitely the name of a house and not a beer, which I think makes it even more likely that the guy in Dresden is just looking to cash in on the famous name.

[@travelingonline9346]

Only months? This has been going on for ten years and there is no reason why it would not go on for another ten years...

[@ukraus]

Hof-Brauhaus?

[@p.9608]

Well, let us know how it ended.

[@nari5025]

just for general clarification: Brauhaus - brewery Bräu - brew (n) (Gebraeu, the thing that is brewed) brauen - to (v) brew (the process of doing it) Hof - (royal) court, also estate (!here is where it gets really muddy judicially!) Hofbräu - lit. the estates brew "the brew brewed on court" and then outsourcing became a thing hundreds of years ago brewing for the court? Höfisches Brauhaus, Hofbrauhaus (if you're doing it for them), take your pick and stick with it. Hofbräuhaus - The place where you can buy the Hofes brew (the estates brew) Hof-Brauhaus - The place where brews are made to (for) the eastate It's really not that much of a difference You're not ever selling Hofbräu (the (royal or common it doesn't matter) estates official brew) nowadays, and you are not allowed to claim otherwise.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

some have mentioned that in bavarian "bräu" is the person who brews.

[@BlueLegion]

Okay, Hofbräuhäuser can be interpreted as the plural of Hofbräuhaus but I think in this case it's the posessive. As in, Hofbräuhäuser Bier is the beer from the Hofbräuhaus.

[@oida10000]

I am amazed how you are able to be at court for 10 years without a final verdict or settlement. Well in this case I side with the larger cooperation and I would urge both sides, but mainly the Dresdner one to agree to the compromise the Judge has suggested.

[@stpeter7432]

Doesn't surprise me! The lawyers are earning fees so it's in their interests to keep the plates spinning. For the Dresden outfit, "there's no such thing as bad publicity". A dairy in Portland, Maine spent 4 years in court defending a claim over a comma (they settled and it cost them $5M).

[@mathiaslist6705]

There is no verb bräuen but a verb brauen. So I think Hofbräu refers to the drink or "Gebräu" which is served there while "Brauhaus" refers more to a house where something is brewed. Hof can refer to a farmer's place although it might be used for a king's place too. Probably the meaning behind those words does not matter for this court case at all.

[@Mishima505]

Reminds me of that spat between Peterborough United and Victoria Beckham over who was entitled to trademark the name “Posh”.

[@soundscape26]

And who won?

[@Mishima505]

@@soundscape26 Peterborough United as they had been using the nickname long before Mrs Beckham ever got hold of it.

[@soundscape26]

@@Mishima505 Thanks. Copyrighting commonly used words is tricky but I'm glad mrs. Beckham lost this.

[@omp199]

@@soundscape26 Trademarks and copyrights are different things.

[@soundscape26]

@@omp199 You are right, my bad... trademarking here.

[@hansberger4939]

Its not necessary to steal or copy exactly a trademark to get in juristical trouble. Having a too similar one is already a reason.

[@aaron9828]

Why can they have a trademark on the word Hofbräuhaus when there are other Hofbräuhäuser that existed for a long time?

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

I guess because they registered it first

Hmm, Hofbräuhaus didn't register an IDN…

[@rewboss]

An IDN isn't that useful. It just means that if you don't have a "Ü" in your keyboard, you have to either figure out how to type a "ü", or you have to know how to convert it to Punycode ("hofbräuhaus.tld" converts to "xn--hofbruhaus-u5a.tld", for example).

@@rewboss I didn't say they should be exclusively on an IDN…

[@toraxmalu]

thanks rewboss - now's the milk sour…

[@minski76]

In Dresden steht ein Hofbrauhaus...

[@reinerjung1613]

Hofbräuhaus und Hofbrauhaus are "very" different words semantically. Hofbräu-haus is a establishment (haus) that produces Hofbräu (the beer for an aristocratic castle, house or palace) while the Hof-brauhaus is a 'beer making facility' for a aristocratic establishment. So the first has an emphasis on the product and the second an emphasis on the manufacturing.

[@beeble2003]

Really surprised this has gone on so long. Trademarks are all about preventing consumer confusion and, even to a German speaker, the two names are easy to confuse. You can easily imagine a German-speaker looking at a sign and not noticing the lack of an umlaut, or seeing one version of the name, realising that umlaut-vs-no-umlaut is significant but still thinking "Wait, is that the Munich one or the Dresden one?" In contrast, your example of Burger Queen shouldn't be a trademark violation, unless you also used a lot of other stuff that made it look like Burger King. If you opened a cafe whose only resemblance to Burger King was that it was called Burger Queen and sold burgers, that should be fine. BK's lawyers might still have a go at you, and the cost of defending the case would probably bankrupt the company, but pyrrhic victory would probably be yours in the end.A better example would be if you opened a chain called MacDonald's, which is almost exactly analogous to the situation with the Bra(e)haeuser.

[@Darilon12]

Hofbräuhaus is the house of the royal brew/beer. Hofbrauhaus is a royal brewery but the beer made there is not the royal beer.

[@soundscape26]

I swear most these stories wouldn't be nowhere near as interesting if not told by Andrew.

[@JackMorty-w6i]

The Judge was smart... And the HB is a trademark that the Dresdeners name is too similar to... Love the way you mispronounce Dresden.

[@danielsuntitledstudio4225]

I'm so confused

[@John_Weiss]

As several of the comments explain, there's no such thing as a „Bräuhaus“. The word is gibberish in German. You can have a „Brauhaus“ == brewery. You can have a „Hofbräu“ == official beer [brew] of the court/estate [Hof], or if you prefer, "the offical royal beer." Which means: A „Hof-Brauhaus” is the royal _brewery;_ A „Hofbräu-Haus“ is the house where you can get the offical royal beer - i.e. the offical royal pub.

[@danielsuntitledstudio4225]

@@John_Weiss Thank you

[@chrishuhn5065]

The whole dispute goes above my head... The labels on the bottles and the packaging are different, the colors are different and the logos are completely different. And why would anyone think that a beer from Dresden is the same as a beer from Munich? When the brand image is clearly diffent? That's like Adidas sueing Asics, because they also use stripes on their shoes. They're a different ammount and bent, but they're still stripes. How dare they! Off with the imposters head!!1!

[@Weissenschenkel]

In Brazil the very same shitty move happened between Eisenbahn Brewery (owned by the Japanese Kirin) and a small family brewery named Eisenbrück (Hunsrückisch for Eisenbrücke.) Eisenbrück was forced to change its name to Altenbrück because Brazilians think Eisenbrück and Eisenbahn are the same thing... Now if my surname was Eisenhower i couldn't register a trademark for a brewery because of this crap. And we're not talking about cheap Chinese plagiarism in counterfeit gadgets which can burn into our pockets without a sign, we're talking about a local brewery that can deliver some 50000-100000 of 600 mL beer bottles a month being compared to a giant corporation which makes "Olympic pools" of some distasteful liquid they insist to call "beer."

[@friedhelmmunker7284]

I-Pod 🎶 and Ei-Pott 🐣-🍵

[@thehoogard]

"people who don't know the german language don't know this...". * Swedish noises intensifies! *

[@HomerNarr]

"Bräu" is a Brew (product). So So "Hofbräuhaus" would be "Court-brew-House" and "Hofbrauhaus" it would be "Court-brewing-House" i think.

[@HelmutQ]

Legal battles are a normal occurrence in a civilized society, not a nuisance. A means of settling a conflict, not necessarily serve justice. A feature not a bug. Let the judge do what he is paid for. It is quite unlikely that Hofbrauhaus will prevail, but even if, who cares which tourist trap wins over the other. So many more interesting questions arise in this world, e.g. whether it is ok to close somebody‘s bank account without judicial review just because he sends money to your political opponent. I‘m much more interested how the Canadian Supreme Court settles this case. Rather one trial too much than one too little

[@HelmutQ]

But definitely a nice anecdote which was fun to follow

[@janism7]

Bräuhaus is just an old way to say Brauhaus (In High-German)

[@holger_p]

I'm a Dresdener and never heard of this beer. It's nothing traditional nor popular. I could not even google for it or find a website, it always gives me the Dresden Branches of the Munich Hofbräuhaus.

[@alondro666]

I have to add that in Bavarian language the Bräu is actually the brewer itself. I don't think it has anything to do with the standard-german "Gebräu". So the Hofbräuhaus would be the house of the brewer.

[@Yourmomma568]

Hofbräuhaus ist immer wirklich Generik.

[@HalfEye79]

With these complaints about names of companies, there isn't looked for it to be exactly equal. Its enough when the names are similar. A few years ago I came along a video game company Ascon. There were legal issues, because ther was, I think, swiss company with the name Ascom. (Ascon =/= Ascom) It was forced to change its name to Ascalon.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

And then there is obviously the thing about things in the same trade.

[@juyjuka]

I liked the singing. :-)

[@polticalme1677]

A (Hof-)Brauhaus is a place where beer is brewed. A (Hof-)Bräuhaus is a place where the beer of the aforementioned (Hof-)Brauhaus is served. A German wouldn't confuse these two, but I get the point with regards to the international market. On the other hand his business is called "Dresdner Hofbrauhaus" and who would think that there's a connection to the "Münchner Hofbräuhaus"? This is utterly stupid.

[@Danny30011980]

But they are distinctively called "Dresdner Hofbräuhaus". Dreeeeeeesdner, which part of that did the Bavarians not get. Little hint, the town is indicated the name...kinda ridiculous how they feel threatened by a way smaller business that's a few hundred kilometres away

[@ryanwidjaja4252]

It is funny that in München (with Umlaut), there is a Bräuhaus. Meanhile in Dresden (without Umlaut), there is a Brauhaus.

[@GegoXaren]

So... Natural words can be trademarked? Like... What the..?

[@rewboss]

Brand names can be trademarked. It doesn't mean you're not allowed to say the word "Hofbräuhaus" any more, it means you can't sell a beer or open a restaurant called "Hofbräuhaus".

[@GegoXaren]

@@rewboss I mean, the Scrolls vs Elder Scrolls was deemed that Scrolls did not trample on the Elder Scrolls trademark.

[@HenryLoenwind]

Let me quickly trademark "youtube channel", I'll make a fortune licensing out that name. I hate those trademarks on purely descriptive names. Doesn't even matter that in this case the Dresden one uses the Hof- prefix without legitimation.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

just trademarct "react" oh wait ...

[@Grothgerek]

At first I thought it difficult but clear, because the Umlaut makes a difference, so Hofbrauhaus should have a right to its name. But after the explanation I'm confused why this is still not settled, because its very clear that Hofbräuhaus is in the right. Details and backround knowledge are important, I literally made a 180° turn and changed my opinion completly.

[@rzu1474]

Copyright is stupid

[@rewboss]

It's not copyright; it's trademark protection. There's a big difference.

[@rzu1474]

@@rewboss Ok. Both is ridiculous at times

[@theuncalledfor]

Höfbräühäüs.

[@WooShell]

I wonder whether this singing is sufficient to report a video for violence.. it did hurt my ears quite badly. ;-)

[@wernerhiemer406]

Also were pirates/sailors allowed to drink wine instead of rum? Sidenote: on that other chanty I missheard tea with mum instead with rum. Well tea is not my thing (hagebute with much sugar, if really there is only that alternative), aswell acoholic beverages, especially beer "uach". I even can't consider a "Hefe-Weizen".

[@jzno]

Was das alls kostet…

[@EmberTheShark]

For me as a German and Bavarian i think the Munich Hofbräuhaus is in the right. (Slight bias tho)

[@wernerhiemer406]

Haha like I were at the A7 driven to vacation in Nuremburg and I said: "Sie verlassen jetzt Deutschland und betreten Bayern!" (eigtl. fahren) 'You are now leaving Germany and entering Bavaria!' Correctly it was some red/white sign we passed.

[@nari5025]

For me as a German and Saxon (slightly biased too though), I think as well Munich has the right claim. IANAL the äu-au difference wouldn't be my main concern. You could be a court brewery (Hofbräuhaus), Or you could be an estate brewery (Hof-Brauhaus) claiming to be the former. It shouldn't matter after 1918, but apparently it still does wonders for marketing. And that's why I think actual ancient court brewerys have a right to defend their claim. NB: the anglophone angle of the äu vs. au difference wouldn't (shouldn't) concern a german court at all (I hope, research pending...)

[@mnoxman]

schell's brewery new ulm

[@kkon5ti]

Sing for us Andrew 🥺

[@chrishalle1982]

Stimmt Bräuhaus macht nämlich gar keinen Sinn und Brauhaus ist eine Brauerei.

Brauhaus ist nur ein Haus, in dem (Bier etc) gebraut wird. Eine Brauerei besitzt mindestens ein Brauhaus.

[@marksgraybeal]

i tink bot a glass stien at liqure store of HB brand, as often do/did buy german beers for octoberfest, all year long. our dads hometown, Pottsville, has Yeuling. usa's oldst brewery.