The Terminator (1984) Happened 3 times - THEORY

[@Kostarr100]

They should have done it as a trilogy, with the third movie set in the future war, and the ending of the third movie leading into the beginning of the first movie.

[@riffbw]

That's where I feel they wanted the franchise to go in a 4th movie (not Salvation) but 3 didn't fare so well so they got away from the plan. 3 ending with Judgement Day plays right in to 4 with opening scenes having Connor setting up the resistance.

[@rossothecrimson7]

That's what most of us wanted!

[@OGRE_HATES_NERDS]

thats what happened in terminator:genisys- the end of that movie is the beginning of the first movie almost like atar wars rogue one with a new hope

[@midnightfenrir]

Isn't this what they technically did? 3 ENDS on Judgment Day and 4 OPENS with Salvation, a movie all about JC. 3 is just a garbage movie that should have bridged that gap a lot better, and Salvation could have been a trilogy of its own. Imagine a time line where we get a trilogy based in the future war with Alien elements where the Terminators are the Xenos. Do Alien, Aliens and then Terminator.

[@jebiniv]

I know most don't agree, but I was really excited to see what woulda come out of the Genisys trilogy they planned. Knowing they sent terminators even further back, both good and bad, was really exciting, and the fact that it was a true war with the fabric of time just felt awesome.

[@kagney13]

You miss the timeline where Kyle overshoots 1984, ends up in the Old West, and lives out his life under the assumed name of Johnny Ringo.

[@walrusArmageddon]

I'm your huckleberry

[@seeingeyegod]

lol that;s perfect

[@russfoulkes5490]

I can just imagine him in a Quantum Leap style thing. "You've got to take out Ed Harris. Twice."

[@mikcnmvedmsfonoteka]

I always wanted Terminator or Predator in old West

[@JonathonConnorOfficial]

right. he also missed the timeline where Kyle Reese over shoots his target Universe, finds himself as Neil O’Donoghue; kicker; Cardinals 1984 instead, overshooting field goal target too and misses the chance for his team to go to the playoff for that season. Lives out the rest of his pathetic life drunk nonstop at the local watering hole rambbling on about killer robots from the future with thick Austrian-American accents......

[@StevenColby1994]

I can accept multiple timelines. what I can't accept is the terminator needing a laser sight on his pistol LOL

[@Stoney_Chan]

Cause its freaking cool maaaaaaan

[@nicknesler]

I mean, if a machine is going to shoot, the most efficient way to process all that is with a laser and some kind of camera looking for the reflection.

[@Trinket430]

Actually I'm pretty sure modern drones use lasers for range finding and stuff. Wouldn't be visible though

[@bastadimasta]

Modern attack aircraft and drones use laser to designate their targets. Given the terminators have lower quality sensor in their eyes, their capability of 3D mapping of their environments is limited. Target acquisition based on a inherently flawed sensor is inefficient. The most logical way to overcome this issue is to add a simple laser sight to their weapons.

[@Imperial_Cosmonaut]

@@bastadimasta robocop never needed a laser sight...

[@The_Rage_Kage]

My theory was always that John Connor was originally just some guy. Just some Resistance Commander who managed to win battles and rally humanity into beating the machines. Skynet sent a Terminator back to kill Sarah before Johns birth and Reese was just the guy sent back to save her and he and Sarah fell in love, Sarah raised John to be the future leader etc etc. A different theory I have is that Skynet went back in time more to set itself up sooner in hopes of winning the war, and killing Sarah and John was more of a bonus objective.

[@gregfalco4528]

That doesn't make sense, because the only reason the technology was found by Cyberdyne in the 80s was because the original T-800 was defeated in the factory. It failed its mission.

[@DanielS2001]

Actually, I think John Connor's real father is the guy who leaves a message on the answering machine, and that she slept with him, and he was calling to ditch her, unaware that she was already pregnant. Sarah only thinks Reese is John's father, which she plants the idea into John's head and John sends Reese back thinking he was his father, when in reality, he's not. XD

[@joby-wankenobinolan3428]

What if john wasn't originally Kyle's son but kyle coming back in time made a new john connor.

[@julianmarco4185]

Would be a giant twist. But a very unappealing outcome. But it kind of makes sense.

[@DanielS2001]

@@joby-wankenobinolan3428 Like what the above video pointed out?

[@oathborn7880]

I like this more then 2 fathers making the same son. DNA plays to much of a factor of who we become as a person for 2 diffrent fathers giving the same needed traits to form and lead a rebellion vs AI genocidal robots

[@doctornico1759]

@@oathborn7880 But actually they don't make the same son. Apparently it's Sarah's fate to have a son. But he looks very different in the various sequels, you can totally link that to the differnt timelines having Sarah getting pregnant at a different time, ending up in a different John.

[@cochiserivera]

It’s a predestined paradox loop. John Connor and Skynet are conceived on the same night.

[@coreym162]

That older John Connor with Kyle Reese picture is so heart warming. That's the sequel we all wanted. The future war. A Future War sequel would tie up all of the loose end of 1 and 2 and we'd see how the war ended.

[@OrangeGeemer]

I like how Kyle always wonder what was going on in Sara's mind while the picture was taken, it never crossed his mind she was thinking about him, missing him.

[@OfficialAndies]

The only reason the original film's timeline has become a tainted mess is because T2, I know it's a great film but the original film was a perfect closed loop, that was the whole twist

[@johnm3907]

I agree but i think 1 and 2 are the closed loop. In the second film the blow up cyberdyne yeah but that doesnt stop anything. They thought it did but they were wrong.

[@wayneberry3453]

That would make sense if not for the deleted scenes of T1. Implications of a sequel, given that JC had a low funding for 1 but amazing ideas, having made enough money, look what T1 could have been with a T2 budget... actually... no! Would have been a CGI sht shw

[@wayneberry3453]

@@johnm3907 no. It DID stop everything. T3 said no! Destroying records and research, there weren't cloud based systems to save those huge floppy disks on lol. T3 isn't cannon

[@johnm3907]

@@wayneberry3453 t3 had a different judgement day so that isnt same loop. 1 and 2 in same loop because even though they blew up cyberdyne the terminator and reese were still sent back. If judgement day was stopped the terminator would never have been sent back. It has the same loop as 12 monkeys. Cant change the future, try as you might.

[@ntdscherer]

@@wayneberry3453 cgi barely existed in 1984, regardless of budget.

[@Is_This_Really_Necessary]

My theory is there are two timelines. Timeline 1 - The Terminator. By sending a Terminator back in time to kill Sarah, Skynet unwittingly becomes responsible for John's birth. This timeline is an infinite loop, with Kyle Reece as John's biological father: Timeline 2 - Terminator 2 Judgement Day. By sending a Terminator back in time to kill John, Skynet unwittingly becomes responsible for its own destruction. This timeline stops the Nuclear holocaust from ever happening, thus permanently ending the loop.

[@CIA-m1v]

I agree. For events and the characters to sync up with future events, both films must 'always' have happened like that. If john was a different John, or Judgement day happened much later as this video suggests, the events of the films would have been impossible and therefore could never have happened. John was always Kyle's son, that's always why Kyle went back and Skynet ultimatly destroys itself. The only conceivable third film, due to this outcome is one with a different yet similar AI connected to different characters in a different future. That is where the other timeline comes in. The other timeline only comes in AFTER the events of the first two films. Logically (like the film or not) Dark Fate follows as it is an entirely different AI and resistance leader.

[@karlepaul6632]

But the moment Reese is killed, shouldn't Sarah technically become un-pregnant, as he won't exist in the future therefore John won't have him to go back in time to knock his mom up, in which case too, that would also mean John would never exist as well. This whole thing would only make more sense if the Porsche guy was actually John's father.

[@Kainlarsen]

I'm sure some viewers here might be familiar with the 'John Connor did not exist' theory; The resistance originally created 'John Connor' as a codename of sorts - either in honour of a fallen soldier who performed a single heroic act, or as a form of disinformation to hide the identities of their top commanders - in order to confuse Skynet and cause it to spread its forces thin in the wrong places. The resistance also makes known that 'John's' mother was called 'Sarah'. The machines, under the impression that 'John Connor' was the biggest threat to them, sent the T-800 back to eliminate his mother. The resistance, wanting to stop or limit any damage to the timeline, send an agent named Kyle Reese through the time machine as well. The terminator begins a process of trial and error, killing several 'Sarah Connors' before Reese is able to intervene and save one. Since this is the first timeline, things are more difficult, and Reese has to sell the story of John Connor to Sarah to legitimise his presence. This Reese is different, colder, more aloof, but eventually they fall in love and sleep together, before he is killed as they try to take out the terminator... This sets up Sarah, now pregnant with his child, to prepare for the future. She names her son John and teaches him everything she has learned. Judgement day eventually comes, and John, influenced by what he was told, works his way up to become an effective leader in the resistance. Aware that his father was a soldier from this time, he seeks out and befriends Kyle Reese, telling him stories of his mother and giving a photo of her to him. Boom. We now have the path to the timeline we see in the film, and all players involved now have a clearer objective. I may be a little rusty on some parts, or it may be similar to other theories, but that's what I heard, anyway.

[@jamesedillor6053]

Go back and rewatch it that Democratic version of terminator dark fake isn’t counted as canon

[@Garviel-Loken]

Thank God. I always think I'm going crazy when I explain to people there must be a "prime timeline" where Kyle isn't John's father and that John more than likely caused the paradox by sending Kyle back.

[@cortneyrens]

Same here! When I ask my BF “how can John Connor exist when he must’ve had a different original father??” He has no explanation, this makes sense though. Also, how can Skynet exist without the help of itself sending the machine back in time (the arm and chip Miles uses the technology from is what forms skynet) there must be another “prime timeline” where skynet exists without the help of this

[@tinytim797]

My favorite afterthought about Terminator is that both Kyle and the T-800 are the fathers of the future conflict. Kyle for fathering the human resistance leader, and the T-800 for leaving a processor that speeds up the production of Skynet.

[@SjP_92]

My thought too, it gets even more apparent through the deleted scene when sarah at the end is put in the ambulance the camera is shifted toward the building which says "cyberdyne" if i recall correctly

[@JHallenbeck]

I think Terminator is supposed to be a closed causal loop where the time travel element always happened because the past cannot actually be changed. It is an infinite loop. This of course was upended by the addition of Terminator sequels, but the first film is actually an accurate portrayal of how time travel is theorized to function if possible. Kyle always appears in 1984 to father John.

[@Richie_Godsil]

Every time I watch T1 I'm surprised how well directed, edited, and acted it all is! Absolute lightning in a bottle!

[@xicoxnicx]

If Sarah had a kid with Enrique like the screencap suggest, we could’ve got Juan Connor.

[@mossadon]

The chosen Juan.

[@nthgth]

"You're pretty jumpy, Connor"

[@GlennDavey]

How did we all get recommended this 2 year old video at the same time? The Terminator series has more legs than what movie studios think, that's why.

[@Horrormaster13]

God, I love T1 and T2 so much. Those two films are truly masterpieces. No matter how much bad Terminator Sequels Hollywood will release, those two films will always be untouchable.

[@Horrormaster13]

@BLAIR M Schirmer Here is my response to you for insulting Terminator 2: Judgement Day and I quote The Terminator himself: *"Fuck You, Asshole."*

[@theironquack]

Am I the only one who looks at the first Terminator movie as actually more of a horror movie?

[@JeffWarren47]

That movie was scary as hell.OJ Simpson was considered for Arnold's part but was considered "too nice".Nothing would be scarier now though.

[@acceptpapara]

Agreed

[@jr2904]

No, I've seen many people complain that the second movie isn't a horror movie like the first

[@zenquantum1246]

@@theironquack yep. 💯It’s a slasher movie where the killer is a cyborg

[@edwardjohnson6744]

It was way more than 3 times. Each John Conner is from a different timeline. Christian Bale, Edward Furlong, Nick Stahl, Jason Clarke etc. Different John Connors from alternate realities. This subject is addressed in Terminator Genesis. .

[@Candymantempting41]

When people or Skynet go back in time, they are choosing to erase everything that previously happened from the arrival date forward. It is a closed door, and it does not repeat. It does not create a loop, because it changes everything. Therefore, if they send someone back again in the future to undo something they experienced, it all starts over from that new point. The future is not set, because they can now manipulate time, but it all remains as one timeline, because it erases as it is used.

[@codenamegamma]

Kinda wish people would talk about the TV Show more. it really did have some great things going for it.

[@proverbednation7]

I was pissed when it was canceled

[@agravery223]

Yeah I enjoyed it!

[@stockingcore]

Gamma?

[@JamesTheDireWolf]

It got canceled because it costs too much. Everybody likes to say that Fox canceled it, but they actually greenlit another season. So Time Warner said okay you pay for it. TW was paying anywhere from 2/3 to 3/4 of the budget. Which was almost $1 million per episode.

[@YoYo-uh3xj]

@@barryallen5905 GTFO

[@amehak1922]

Cyberdyne Systems is a real company now in Japan and they make robots.

[@Ixe2077]

OH SHIT OH NO

[@21stcenturyhiphop]

@@Ixe2077 💀💀💀💀💀😂

[@trentryan27]

Did they not see the movie?

[@amehak1922]

@@trentryan27 may be, but probably not.

[@HighStakesDanny]

Cool!!!

[@williamcasadone5071]

John becoming a US senator would make him way worse and more destructive than any terminator out there

[@rodrigosoto4827]

Lol. That's accurate.

[@asktheetruscans9857]

Haha, and smarmy!

[@pliskenx51mm83]

I actually cringed when Sarah said his weapons are common sense and hope. Two things that most officials in government lack in spades as of 2021! On both sides of the aisle!

[@cjewe1z]

"I came across time for you, Sarah." One of the greatest lines of all times. Alongside "I have crossed oceans of time to find you" and "Be strong, survive, stay alive no matter what occurs, I will find you, no matter how long it takes, no matter how far, I will find you".

[@cjewe1z]

@Spaced Invaders, thank you, sir.

[@NewOrderOfAlexandria]

Just typing so I understand this Original John Connor is only related to Sarah. Kyle Reece is sent back to protect Sarah from Termination, falls in love and pregnates her with a new baby still named John Connor. New John Connor must send back Kyle Reece to secure the current timeline where Sarah defeated Skynet, otherwise she would be killed and he wouldn't be born. Original John Connor has been retconned out of existence 😂

[@Marduk401]

I feel like you didn't get what the third movie was trying to say. when they said that judgment day is inevitable in the third movie they didn't imply that there is fate. They meant that whatever you do mankind will always create artificial intelligence that will be its successor simply because humankind is thirsty for progress and advancement. Meaning mankind forges its own fate to destruction and you can only postpone it until the next scientist creates it. which is pretty much what the second movie's message is.

[@ryanstreuli9554]

Marduk401 exactly

[@homeygfunkoffacherryfruitl4971]

Yeah I always got that it was never so much "Judgement Day is going to happen at this exact date in this exact way." I was under the impression that Judgement Day was just a universal constant of any number of variables. Basically Judgement Day will always happen no matter what, it just never happens the same way twice.

[@johnboko7110]

And it's a realistic and logical direction to take

[@kelman727]

Or not.

[@KingGrio]

This theory is actually an apt justification for Dark Fate: John Connor gets killed because we're in some n-th iteration of the timeline repeating itself that has drifted too far away from John being the savior of manking, and he dies because the John Connor that saves man kind wasn't even the John Connor son of Kyle Reese but the original John Connor from the 1st timeline. And so the timeline gets all messed up and everything changes.

[@BloodTar]

Just remember, Kyle Reese responded toSarah's _So you're from the future too_ with *_"one POSSIBLE future"_* , not a set in stone future.

[@Ucan_Entertainment]

This would make more sense if Sarah was already pregnant just before Kyle time travelled back. So John is not Kyle's son but she could have believed it. She lived a rather promiscuous lifestyle.

[@joetroutt7425]

I'm from the future and Terminator 9 explains everything. I can't tell you anything though bc it will fuck up future events. Thank you and greetings from 2034

[@Y2Kr4SHM4N]

How are you enjoying Neo-Feudalist 2034?

[@constructivecriticism2568]

Damn. That’s two more failed reboots before I get a shot at it.

[@tadpolegaming4510]

@@Y2Kr4SHM4N more like oppressive, totalitarian surveillance nanny-state, but ok

[@Y2Kr4SHM4N]

@@tadpolegaming4510 Neofeudalist, totalitarian nanny state post Great Reset. They’ll tell you it’s to protect us from climate change, which is real, but it’s not the reason. The billionaires want the middle class erased and everyone poor. As the population growth isn’t keeping up with the model of capitalism. You need an ever expanding populace of poor people. Hence, a great reset to reset the debt. The poor can pay for it. The billionaires must maintain their living standards Y’know.

[@Y2Kr4SHM4N]

@@tadpolegaming4510 Did you understand what is meant by neo-feudalism?

[@muitalos]

Your timeline matches up exactly with what I came up with, branching multiverse theory makes the most sense with the different stories we’ve seen (comics/novels/games/tv show/movies). I’m really glad you made this video.

[@StarWarsStory]

1:49 "Both movies end on the note, the future is not set....Until Terminator 3 ruined it". Not true, infact - The 1st movie's time travel business doesn't change any of the events at all, in fact everything comes full circle (this is due to the movie originally meant to be a 1 off) Everything Reese describes from his future happens and it comes apparent that John has *always been HIS kid*, considering Reese mentions John is his height and that Johns father dies before the war, everything plays out as it's described and the proof in the pudding is despite all the time travel, the photo of Sarah we see from Reese's future still happens and isn't altered in the slightest. The first Terminator film doesn't have a 'no fate but what we make' ending. The 2nd one does.

[@jaysnow4074]

I like the theory that once you time travel from one universe to another, your life in that universe ends and continues into the one you traveled to.

[@Jason_Black]

My favourite fan theory: John Connor's father was the guy who stood up Sarah on a Friday night. The guy with the Porsche.

[@lycanthropus1784]

Hey, wouldn't you cancel on a date if you saw on the news that some psycho was going around slaughtering people with her name? Self-preservation, man.

[@leejones8142]

He, could have just been a date, for that evening

[@Jason_Black]

_Could have been._ Could've been her date last Friday too 😉

[@aaronequinoa77]

What if Kyle is never the father. What about the fact she could of and probably already knocked up as kyle arrived and the audience and sara always believe Kyle has to be the dad

[@MS-ns2pj]

Even in that case, Kyle changes Sara by telling her the future and starting her journey on learning how to fight. Either way, Kyle becomes important.

[@SenseiJacksama]

Thinking about if this theory is correct then technically John Connor actually killed himself by sending Kyle Reese into the past to stop himself from being killed and is replaced by an alternate john connor fathered by kyle reese. Ironically the Terminator being sent back in time to protect skynet also causes the destruction of skynet only to be replaced by an alternate skynet "fathered" by Cyberdyne.

[@LSMMIKE]

It’s a well constructed theory, but I don’t really agree. I believe the film is meant to be a causality loop. The Terminator always traveled to the past and encountered Sarah who was saved by Kyle Reese, who gets her pregnant and then dies saving her, resulting in Sarah becoming a badass who can train her son to be the savior of the Resistance. John eventually meets Kyle, keeps him close to protect him and gives him the picture so he’ll fall in love with Sarah before being sent back in time and repeating the loop. There never needed to be another father or alternate timeline because the time travel always occurred within the current one. Terminator 2 just takes a different approach, especially if we count the alternate ending.

[@sexistatheist6464]

@@leonefurlan137 The alternate ending for T2 shows an elderly, but happy Sarah, in a future where Judgment Day never happened, because of the destruction the T-800's CPU and Miles Dyson's work. John Connor is a politician rather than a soldier in this future, with children of his own. You can probably find the scene on KZbin, if you search for T2 alternate ending or deleted scenes.

[@myscreen2urs]

Like in the movie Predestination. Only less Jerry Springer-ey😁

[@Henry-jp3mc]

All great time travel stories either have causal loops or are alternate timelines. Terminator is causal where the future effects the past. Ironically the time machine built by skynet is the reason the machines can never win. Jon is an anonymous constant in the time loop and always knows what will happen before the machines do. It really is destiny because its already happened from his older POV. His mother probably told him his fathers name so he kept it a secret all the time he was working with Kyle Reece.

[@Boujonzu]

Yep definitely agree.

[@mouse2482]

The Terminator movie is predestination time loop because the photo that Kyle had in the future is exactly the same as the one taken of Sarah at the end of The Terminator. This heavily suggests that the events of The Terminator fulfilled the predestination paradox: The T-800 and Kyle Reese traveled back in time to fulfill their roles in history, not to change it.

[@parrotsticks]

The selfie Sarah took was the exact same one Kyle memorised, so obviously that was supposed to be a 12 Monkeys style ending where an attempt to change history only put a small loop in it. It was a horror movie, where human victory was inevitable, but so was the war. "There's a storm coming"

[@ntdscherer]

Minor point but that wasn't a selfie. A young boy took the photo.

[@h91rex100]

Pretty bold of kyle to knock Sarah up considering he wasnt the original father in the first timeline. They potentially could have ended up with a completely different version of john or even could have had a daughter instead.

[@mostlyholy6301]

@Robert Wilkins Or, original John Connor understood that he was not unique but just happened to have the skills needed and to be in the right place at the right time, and that he as an individual was less important than the myth of him as the great leader of the resistance, so he sacrificed himself by sending Reese back to ensure that a "John Connor" could be born.

[@Honre123]

This has been my thoughts for years as well. The fact is you can't invent yourself, so these multiple timelines make the absolute best sense. Thank you for uploading this - now I can show this to explain my thoughts on it to others.

[@whomee2]

This theory, or idea of the multiple timelines to get to what we see, was indeed examined in detail by a gentleman by the name of MJ Young on his time travel blog going back to the late 90s/early 2000s. He recently put it all together in a book. He called it the "sawtooth snap" basically doing exactly as you describe with the first timeline without Reese, then a second, and a third as we see in the movie. I find it very cool that you came to the same conclusion! Check out his website and his book! You won't be sorry!

[@TheFigure]

Something I’ve always wondered about is that the Terminator in T1 was killing Sarah Connors in the order they appeared in the phone book. Is it possible then, that the terminator killed the *right* Sarah, but in doing so, accidentally forced the last Sarah left standing to become the Sarah of prophecy because that’s the one that was left for Kyle to find? For all we know, one of the other Sarahs already had a son who was born named John - but the tragedy of losing his mother threw him off the path of becoming the future resistance leader. I can appreciate the argument that Kyle had a picture of Sarah, but he traveled to the past as a consequence of the terminator having already traveled back in time. This put the terminator on the path to killing the first 2 Sarahs, which would cause the picture (and Kyle’s memory of it) to change.

[@LexiSexi01]

TheFigure woah that’s some trippy shit

[@Napoleonic_S]

This isn't back to the future, so the photo thingy isn't guaranteed to work the same lol.

[@TheKain202]

No. They removed it along with the lets blow up Cyberdyne sub-plot, but in the script it's heavily implied that the "limited information" Skynet used to select the time and place to send the Terminator, was actually Sarah's hospitalization report after her encounter with the Terminator. It's a short removed exchange between Traxler and Vukovic. The Terminator mutilated the 1st Sarah left leg for some reason. At the end, it turns out it was trying to confirm the kill, trying to find the metal plate used to fix her leg after she was skewered with a piece of the endoskeleton.

[@baraka99]

I want to see more. I love how you say Genesis is not even considered a movie. 10/10

[@moseszero3281]

I think it makes more sense that the original timeline has no John Conner. Skynet is loosing the war so they send a terminator back in time to help them get an early advantage. Reese is then sent back in time to stop it. He does BUT has no way home so he meets and impregnates Sarah thus starting the second line where John shows up as a major military leader. The first movie is a third line.

[@martinm.1967]

good theory

[@rodogg88]

as it is in the movie is a loop and makes sense. he goes back to the past, impregnates sarah and dies. in the future, john has to send him back since if he doesnt, john will never have existed. loop closed.

[@darthbilbo]

At least John Connor didn't go back in time and father himself...

[@icarus1416]

Causality paradox 🤣

[@TekkLuthor]

John: what was my father like Sarah: he reminds me of you. He even does the thing you do with your eyes

[@rc1982]

Well... How can we know that Kyle Reese is really his name?

[@thenerddirector]

Yeah kinda like fry being his grandfather from futurama

[@druid_zephyrus]

EXCUSE ME!!!! So uncouth to say! The scientific term is: "Doing the nasty in the pasty."

[@QuakerJT]

I too had speculated that the original John Connor was not the son of Kyle Reece, but some other person who died before John was born, or was just not involved; which would explain why John's surname was Connor and not the father's.

[@Tasha9315]

Connor was his mother's lastname. He wouldn't be genetically the same person if he had a different father.

[@QuakerJT]

So?

[@Tasha9315]

@@QuakerJT So I don't think he had a different father as there's no indication there 2 different John Connors.

[@QuakerJT]

@@Tasha9315There's no indication that there's not, either.

[@Tasha9315]

@@QuakerJT Yeah, but would it make sense? It just seems odd that there are 2 genetically different Johns and they both have the same destiny while the movie never mentions the Johns are different.

[@PsychorGames]

The problem is, if you ignore every other film in the franchise, Terminator 1 is a perfect time travel film with no plot holes. If Terminator 1 is the only canon film, Kyle Reese is always John's father, and Judgement Day happens the exact same way in every timeline. It's a permanent feedback loop. There's no re-writing the past, there's no un-doing the past, there's no change whatsoever. It's a feedback loop that mirrors itself repeatedly and infinitely. Kyle meets Sarah in the past. Sarah and Kyle have John. Judgement Day occurs. John trains Kyle. Kyle enters the time machine... and Kyle meets Sarah in the past. Sarah and Kyle have John. Judgement Day occurs. John trains Kyle. Kyle enters the time machine... and Kyle meets Sarah in the past. Sarah and Kyle have John. Judgement Day occurs. John trains Kyle. Kyle enters the time machine... and That's why Terminator 1 is a perfect film. But then the sequels had to kind of ruin it (I still think T2 is amazing btw and arguably a better action film.) When they introduced the notion that the events of the future can be changed by going into the past, the perfect feedback loop was ruined and the franchise was pummeled with plotholes.

[@davidsirmons]

The only way to stop the entire sequence of events is to stop the terminator from going back in time at all. That's the real plot hole, provided there's only one time sequence, since Skynet created itself causally by time-jumping the first terminator.

[@GuitarGangsterArmi]

Psychor The Terminator is a stand-alone. There really only is one movie.

[@mr.nobody9697]

Completely disagree. That would make zero sense. Its like saying there is no beginning to any of these events but there absolutely has to be. Everything has a beginning even existence itself. Your theory is too simple and doesnt work.

[@TheKain202]

@@mr.nobody9697lmao, it's actually the only existing model implementing actual science. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle

[@raezor82]

After Kyle is sent back, what happens from the perspective of John or a fellow resistance fighter?

[@karabearcomics]

But the first movie's message actually contradicts what John has Kyle tell Sarah. The entire movie is a predestination paradox--the future is set, and they're only going through the motions to make it happen. The Terminator always went back in time to kill Sarah, leaving its arm behind in the failed attempt which ultimately led to the creation of Skynet, while their actions caused Kyle to go back to stop them in that attempt and father John, their greatest nemesis, causing them to in the future send a Terminator back, ad infinitum. It was Terminator II that introduced the idea of changing the future as a viable option.

[@lueymeteora1410]

You deserved more than 5 likes for that succinct synopsis!

[@stevesamson3940]

Yeah, the two John Connors is a big hole in this although viable, OG John Connor would have no idea that by sending KR back in time he'd be erasing himself so he'd still make that decision.

[@plissken94th57]

How about this, skynet sent a terminator to another timeline to create the alternate timeline so they have judgement day earlier than before

[@Tasha9315]

If Sarah got knocked up by someone else, her son wouldn't be John Connor. He could be named John Connor, but he would genetically different. She can't produce the same son with different men. I don't understand why Skynet doesn't find out Kyle Reese is his father and kill Kyle Reese instead of sending Terminators back in time. Would have been easier unless John knew who his father was and was protecting him.

[@myriaidee1sessh43]

I think they try that in Salvation movie.

[@h91rex100]

Yeah, kyle reese took a HUGE gamble when he slept with Sarah in the second timeline. There were a number of potential outcomes that couldve played out for example sarah having a daughter instead, or a kid with a mental disability.

[@mikespearwood3914]

@@h91rex100 do you mean Genysis?

[@johnbush5347]

@@mikespearwood3914 he clearly means t1, Kyle banging Sarah changes who John Connor is genetically

[@mikespearwood3914]

@@johnbush5347 "second timeline"...clearly T1 is the original timeline...isn't it?

[@KevboKev]

6:56 - "At some point they fall in love and BANG!" Well played, sir. Well played.

[@marcuspowell8142]

My theory is Sarah was impregnated by the guy that stood her up, on an earlier date. It was a hookup in his Porche or something. She didn’t know it yet. Riece is not the father. That’s it. “Genysis” is the only timeline that altered this theory. That was an interesting theory Cordery gave but I’m sticking with mine.

[@StrawberrySoaps]

The simplest solution is that Kyle Reese isn't the father, the father is Sarah's ex boyfriend that is mentioned earlier in the film. They weren't broken up for that long so having sex with Kyle is a coincidence for John's conception.

[@Tomoyo0827]

I would watch any future terminator movie if: 1, reverse roles, humanity lost, humans sent a person to kill the skynet ‘s creator, skynet has to defend. 2, reverse time travel, humans send someone to the past to pick something or someone and bring them back to win the war 3, post judgement day, story about how John became a leader This will be a great new trilogy

[@_wkja]

too bad even such movies would probably suck nowadays

[@cndrussty]

John's dad is the guy with the Porsche, she slept with him now he is ditching her. She sleeps with Kyle close to sleeping with the Porsche guy. Who would you rather think is the father of your child, a guy who died protecting you or the guy that dumped you after you gave it to him?

[@purpseven1854]

Except for T1 T2 and Salvation the rest are not considered as movies. Couldn’t agree more!

[@exowarrior]

I like it. Unfortunately theories are all we can manage though, as James Cameron would have to be the one to fill the plotholes properly, but your theory makes perfect sense to me. In the second timeline, Kyle would likely interrupt Sarah meeting the original father of John Connor and fate would sort itself by making him the father instead. Or perhaps there is also the possibility that with the Terminator speeding up the process of Skynet's development, fate sorted itself then as well by making John's conception also happen earlier. Maybe in the original timeline John wasn't born until much later, just as Skynet was also not "born" until later.

[@MarCuseus]

Wrong: both movies do not end on "the future is not set". Only the second one. T1 is a closed loop.

[@me4067]

MarCuseusFX Correct. It’s the whole chicken and egg concept. It’s quite the mind bender. Skynet inadvertently is responsible for the creation of itself, and John Connor. It’s fate. Brilliant stuff. But then this concept is abandoned for the sequel.

[@DeadManSinging1]

@@me4067 Actually, James Cameron intended this to be in the original film. In the deleted scenes, Sarah and Kyle decide to destroy the cyberdyne factory. That's why they start building pipe bombs and head there at the end of the movie. It wasn't his decision to cut those scenes out, which is why he revisited them in T2. He has never been given rights for a directors cut of the first film. Have you seen the ending of the directors cut of T2? They stop Judgement Day, it's clear cut.

[@me4067]

Uncle Fester Yeah I’ve seen the alternate ending of T2, that’s the real ending of the series for me personally. And even in James Cameron’s own words, T2 is the where the story ends. But even if those scenes were in the final cut, it still doesn’t change the ending of T1. That would remain the same. The T-800 ultimately thwarted their plan to destroy Cyberdyne. So it would still be predestination through a time loop. It wasn’t until James Cameron decided to make a sequel that he used the deleted sub plot from T1 to create the story for T2. In which, the theme of the story changed.

[@centurion8446]

Yeah the deleted scenes in particular spell it out, especially when they reveal the Factory with the Crushing Press is Cyberdyne and the guys are picking up the CPU to take to the R&D lab. Wish they had kept all of these in tbh

[@visageofgaming6667]

OR, Kyle Reese was never John Conner’s dad. It’s that dude with the Porsche. Probably a 1 and done kinda guy and Sara put out on the first date. Got knocked up.

[@publiusdos5925]

That would make for a good comedy skit.

[@roguerifter9724]

My theory is also that there are at least three timelines but the original timeline had no John. Reese was sent back for some other purpose, meeting and falling in love with Sarah and giving birth to John which creates the timeline T1 Reese came from.

[@tjkern9880]

I was thinking the same thing pretty much the whole vid during/after the first timeline.

[@chamoo232]

That can only work if Skynet invented time travel for another purpose. As we know it they made it as a failsafe to defeat John at an earlier point if they were losing in the future. If John never existed in a timeline then it would have to be someone else leading the victory that requires a terminator to be sent back. That would make it hard to involve Sarah randomly into all this.

[@roguerifter9724]

If Skynet invented time travel in the original timeline all it would take is Kyle's mission putting him in LA or wherever Sarah went after college. Or perhaps it wasn't Skynet trying to change history in that timeline. There was a novel Trilogy released between T2 and T3, the John Connor Chronicles. The trilogy focused on three timelines one of which was the future created by the events of T2. In that future Judgment Day happened much later long after Sarah and John were both dead. The Resistance determined that the war was a lost cause so they sent a team to try and create a future where Judgment Day never happened while Skynet was trying to preserve the future by sending a Terminator. Maybe something similar happened in the original timeline.

[@tonneblack5168]

There is only one timeline. Kyle Reese coming back in time leads to the birth of John Connor. The T-800 coming back in time leads to the creation of SkyNet. It is a "Bootstrap Paradox".

[@martinm.1967]

But then this timeline would be unchangeable but as we know: The future is not set in stone.

[@Chuked]

@@martinm.1967 the future is set in stone tho, to be in 1984 and to have a time traveling robot murder you, the future would be happened

[@DynaSuarez9999Wrecks]

I think John Connor himself gets it right in _Terminator: Genisys_. A bootstrap paradox (or causal loop or spontaneous generation, depending on who you ask) is a paradox in which a future event caused a past event. It comes from the idiom "to pick yourself up by your bootstraps", which is a physically impossible task because movement requires action from an outside force. Kyle fathered John. John sent Kyle back to father him. John is a bootstrap paradox. So is Skynet, for that matter. After all, Skynet was developed from the reverse engineering of the neural network processor and arm left behind by the first T-800. Skynet sent the T-800 back to be destroyed. In _Terminator: Genisys_, John suggests to Sarah and Kyle that they are "outcasts of time". Now I realize that applying real-world physics to an action movie where real-world physics doesn't apply is a mostly futile endeavor, but if we're going to try to rationalize this, let's at least pretend to care to answer a few questions. Questions like: who is John's original father, and under what circumstances was Skynet originally designed? What happens to the universe and its entropy when energy (the mass of Kyle and the three terminators in the first two movies) is suddenly introduced to it? There are some meta questions that need answering too. What was the T-800 supposed to do afterward if it succeeded at assassinating Sarah? Why is Connor so singularly important, as if there isn't some chain of command that could accomplish the mission of defeating Skynet anyway? The future isn't set -- but John and Skynet are. Their energies have been injected into the universe from the future. There is no future where they don't exist because they created themselves.

[@bulletproofrecon1082]

I think the reason he said the future is not set is because they gained knowledge that changing the past does not change the future, but cuts off the link from the past to THAT future. He sent back Kyle because he thought sending him back would make a better result than their first attempt.

[@macklee6837]

Connor didn't send back Reese, Reese volunteered. He even said that.

[@sexistatheist6464]

Reese volunteered because he'd already fallen in love with Sarah based on the photo John gave him. And John gave Kyle the photo because he knew Kyle falling in love with Sarah was what led to his own conception. So sure, Kyle volunteered, because he'd been primed to do so by John.

[@florinnatu]

what matters more is: Terminator has just 2 movies, 1 and 2. the end

[@DaveE7492]

I have a pretty similar theory to yourself. The difference being that instead of 3 timelines there was an unknown number of different timelines; maybe several, maybe dozens, the exact number wasn't important to my theory. The point being as you said the original timeline was unaffected by time travel - Kyle Reese wasn't John's father, Judgement Day occurs later because humans haven't got future tech to reverse engineer, and Sarah herself doesn't become a badass. Then Skynet develops the Time Displacement equipment and sends Terminators back in time to kill important characters, and the Resistance sends protectors after them. Going back in time either alters the timeline or creates a new one. The process repeats itself multiple times, which each new timeline being a bit different to the previous one until we finally get to the timeline we see in the films, which is the final timeline. And in this final timeline Skynet is never created and Judgement Day never occurs, as the characters prevented the apocalyptic future from happening ''The future is not set. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves.''

[@John-Doe-Yo]

I always tell friends whenever a movie involves time travel don’t think about it too much. Lol. Just enjoy the story.

[@CIS-m8s]

I honestly had this exact thought process for a while now, and now it's so cool knowing someone else has actually refined and formulated this into a full video!

[@darthkek1953]

Except it doesn't have to be 3 timelines. I could be three thousand trillion by now and they'd never know.

[@sharkydog6306]

Has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe everyone is wrong about who the father of John Connor is? I know we all want Kyle Reese to be his father, but honestly, who knows what Sarah was up to before Reese showed up? Maybe she was already pregnant. I mean, it's not like there was a DNA test with Maury saying, "Kyle Reese, in the case of John and Sarah... You ARE the father!" Who says everyone isn't just wrong?

[@Jim-pq9pm]

The guy who stood her up who has the Porch?

[@sharkydog6306]

@@Jim-pq9pm Who the actual father was doesn't matter. The fact that Sarah believes that Kyle is the father doesn't matter. The fact that Kyle goes back in time at John's request and protects Sarah from the first T-800 because John believes Kyle is his father doesn't matter. All that matters is that John is actually fathered by someone else and therefore there is no time paradox. It's just that we the audience are operating under a false narrative because we assume that Kyle is the actual father when logically, he can't be.

[@Jim-pq9pm]

@@sharkydog6306 Yes he can be. You obviously haven't delved that deeply into time paradox scenarios

[@vietnamd0820]

Jim Before time travel was invented, Reese couldn’t have been the father....not initially...that’s the point of the video

[@Jim-pq9pm]

@@vietnamd0820 How do you know if John Connor even existed before time travel was invented by Skynet? That's the issue. If there can be an original father for John who is not Kyle, then there can also be an original savior of humanity who is not John. Original John sends someone back to protect his mother, let's call him James Connolly. This man who is sent back is the first to alter the timeline by sleeping with James' mother, thus creating the first John Connor. Theoretically possible.

[@NinjaNezumi]

Here's the real paradox for you. People keep talking about Kyle and Sarah and their son, but as you said, he has to exist. No matter what, there will be a leader who fights the logical machines, and can out match them with illogical/no linear combat tactics. The Machines, in order to win, must invent a time machine. If they do invent the time machine, that means they are losing. If they invent the time machine, they will lose because they will be stopped. No matter what, the Machines put themselves in a logical loop. They must always invent the time machine in order to guarantee victory, but once they do, they lose because the humans will ALWAYS go back and stop them, which forces the machines to invent the Time Machine. So every time a Terminator goes back in time, it postpones Skynet's downfall, but then it also postpones Skynet's rise to power, which postpones the technology available to create Skynet, which postpones the technology available to the humans, which postpones Skynet's victory, which prevents Skynet from obtaining victory, which endangers Skynet and causes them to lose, and forces Skynet to send a terminator back in time to try to stop its own defeat, which postpones skynet's rise to power..... As Dark Fate has demonstrated - John Connor need not be the leader of the resistance. There will always be a leader. They will always rise to destroy the machines. The humans will always be on the verge of victory, and Skynet will always send a terminator back in time to stop it. It is a metaphor for the eternal battle of life and light against eternal darkness. It can never come to an end. Our future is what we decide, but we will always be on the cliff of annihilation. When we become complacent we risk destruction.

[@ResidentStump]

Something that this theory implies that I really enjoy is that John Connor himself is in a way sort of arbitrary. In the first timeline, John Connor's father couldn't have been Kyle Reese obviously and instead would have been some random. By the end of the second timeline, Kyle is John's genetic father and in that way a different person from the first timeline's John. The things all three timelines have in common are Sarah Connor and Judgement Day happens (at some point). So as far as humanity's future is concerned, John Connor could sort of be any person as long as they were Sarah Connor's child. This video was neat, dude.

[@nizz0matic307]

the first movie works as a perfect time loop, they just had to shit on that to make sequels. john knew that reese was his father, sarah told him, that is why in the future he gave reese a picture of her and told him all about her, this made kyle fall in love with her, and made him impregnate her. it's a perfect loop. they destroy that loop to make t2 obviously, but it was very self contained and john's father was always kyle.

[@seeingeyegod]

@@nizz0matic307 uh but how did Kyle impregnate Sarah the first time if he was never sent back by his own son!

[@enragedstead]

@@seeingeyegod he was always sent back what you are seeing IS the first time, its a causal loop, a paradox.

[@seeingeyegod]

@@enragedstead well that was always a problem with the original story that this video seeks to logically solve. Logic dictates John couldn't exist at all to send anyone back if he wasn't born before that in the first place. Either him or a A John Conner.

[@enragedstead]

@@seeingeyegod why would john not be born if kyle was always sent back?

[@jhamilton07]

I used to complain in comments about "plot holes" in this movie not being plot holes because it was impossible that it didn't happen in an already altered timeline because of Kyle Reese being John's father and Cyberdyne having the arm. Never fleshed it out though. Excellent job.

[@csabafacsar5562]

The problem with the first timeline is: John becomes the leader of the resistance because - by the time of the judgement day - he was in the possession of all the knowledge of how to fight the terminators. Info passed down by Kyle Reese and learning from the previous Terminators. And training given to him by Sarah because of all the assassination attempts happened earlier. This is the beauty of the whole paradox. You dont separate these timelines. There was never 3 different timeline. This is like a never ending circle. A serpent which bites his own tail... If you will... Skynet defeats itself by the fact of sending back all the terminators, so basically supporting John with all the knowledge he needs to fight them in the future. But making sure skynet will be created by the left behind parts of the old terminators. Without this knowledge John would not stand a chance against the machines even if his father was a military person on the first timeline. Too much information is missing to be able to fight the machines effectively...

[@riffbw]

This falls apart when the story claims Judgement Day moves. I'd prefer one timeline, but the instant you canonize changing a historical event because of time travel, you have branching timelines. John could always be the son of Reese, there doesn't have to be an original father. The John's existence prompts the time travel, but it's the time travel that brings his life about. PS. The potentially awesome movie they never thought of us was finding out Reese is the father and attempting to kill Reese during the War before he can be sent back to save Sarah in T1.

[@csabafacsar5562]

@@riffbw Not necessarily falls apart. So there are these constant time loops on one timeline. And what we experienced in the T2 movie is the so called "breaking the time loop" Sarah falls asleep, have got that vision which makes him realise the circle is NOT a never ending one. "There's no fate but what we make for ourselves." So she tries to do something about it and brakes the circle... So basically yes. There are two different timelines. :) But your other idea is brilliant. I have never thought about the idea of erasing the father instead of the mother. Well it looks like Skynet did not think about it either. :)

[@chestyp0311]

Was I the only one laughing my ass off at the deleted scene towards the end, no wonder it was left out🤣

[@allthingsclassicrock]

Read your comment before that scene, my god it’s terrible. 🤣 like daytime soap opera bad.

[@D_Fyre]

lol yes his face is meme-worthy.

[@erinfitzgerald9179]

Kyle Reese is not the original father. Kyle Reese and the Terminator created a ripple effect in the timeline.

[@lochofmceo]

Huh

[@justinmacarrhur1924]

Just like the ripple i did in your mom tho

[@alphatrion100]

Reeses mission should have been to stop skynet from becoming self aware and stop judgement day. Not save the mother of some resistance leader who is gonna beat skynet AFTER the Apocalyps.

[@FP194]

And that was the plot Genesis

[@brucechamberlin2545]

Well that's the Hitler paradox. If you go back in time and stop the thing from happening. Then there was no reason to go back in time to stop it, so you never went back in time to stop it.

[@vascoernesto78]

@@brucechamberlin2545 what?

[@brucechamberlin2545]

@@vascoernesto78 Google it. Hitler paradox or grandfather paradox

[@ragingjavier0075]

It happening 3 times would make sense for the second movie due to the machines knowing the second one would fail again to send a new and improved Terminator. I'd love to see a movie where you follow John ending the war for good like what Salvation tried to do because we never actually see John end the war just the event leading up to the time machine.

[@johnbush5347]

John wasn't even a high enough up in salvation for the first 3 to make sense as to why they would send terminators to kill him/ prevent his birth to begin with

[@VickStarkiller]

The only way they can save this franchise is by making yet another sequel only now, it establishes new continuity by taking place many years after the events of T2, incorporating elements of T3, and also acknowledging that T5 and T6 are alternate timelines that have been established due to the repeated timeline meddling of Skynet and the Resistance. This movie could bring back Christian Bale as Connor (cause why not? Also to acknowledge T4 as canon), Bryce Dallas Howard as Kate Connor, Linda Hamilton as Sarah Connor who is now helping to fight the war beside her son (or just kill her off and follow the continuity of T3) and Arnie returns (for the final time) not only as a Terminator but also as a war torn general who befriends John and Kyle and ends up being the one who Skynet used as inspiration for the T-800 that gets sent back to 1984 and 1997 and the T-850 sent back to 2003. Cast a new Kyle Reese. Just make a 2.5 hour Future War film that doesn’t deal with time travel outside of acknowledging certain events and just wrap up the storyline definitively once and for all. No more world-building or time travel. Call it Terminator: Final Fate.

[@huntejt]

No. The Terminator Prime timeline has no John Connor. Judgement day occurs around 2004. In about 2030, give or take, the human resistnce is on the verge of being defeated. So they send Kyle Reese into the past to destroy Cyberdyne before they create Skynet. At some point he knocks-up Sarah Connor, but then goes on to try to destroy Cyberdyne. The Terminator nd Kyle Reese mutually destroy each other. Sarah Conner raises John with the information that she got from Kyle. John Conner has an advantage now, and he is on the verge of defeating SKynet. But this time Skynet sends a Terminator back, and John realizes that this is not the original timeline. Hence "the future is not set... etc". He sends Kyle Reese (again)...

[@huntejt]

" A lot of things just boil down to coincidence in this timeline". That's a real problem. My timeline has coincidence also. As far as I can tell, all of them do. But the goal is to reduce coincidence to the absolute minimum possible. I haven't given my complete timeline, but I think it does. I may post the rest of it, but right now I'm kinda drunk.

[@bluebirdsigma]

I think John's original father would be Morsky, and the arrival of Kyle and the Phonebook Killer in 1984 caused some butterfly effect chain of events that led Morsky to cancel the date.

[@LoveToSpootch]

That's not how the bufferfly effect works though.

[@bluebirdsigma]

@@LoveToSpootch why not? Let's say the T800 stealing a car, pushing the bearded guy out of the phone, killing the gun salesman or just driving through a certain street at a certain time where nobody would otherwise leads to a chain of events that could end up causing some situation Morsky "can't get out of" and forces him to call off the date.

[@buko1988]

@@bluebirdsigma it's possible

[@bable6314]

@@LoveToSpootch That's exactly how it works lol

[@CoffeeMatt10]

My theory is he always last minute cancelled on her, and when she goes out by herself (leaving Matt and Ginger behind) meets someone else instead, maybe someone with a military background, and they end up together, conceive John and he learns military stuff from his father in that timeline.

[@anubusx]

It should of stopped at T2.

[@richardched6085]

Can't it just be a perfect time Loop? T2 is the first film where the Loop is broken. Skynet always sent the Terminator to 1984 from 2029. Kyle Reese was always sent to defeat it and Father John Connor. The real changes occurred in T2 when the T-1000 was sent to 1995 and the second T-800 sent to protect John from it. These events led to the destruction of Cyberdyne Systems Corporation and the abortion of Skynet.

[@jaxius01]

Nice video. It's a good theory. I like the three timeline aspect. I would like to offer an alternative set. Timeline 1: No John Connor. This timeline has the war bringing the planet close to the brink of destruction. With no unified leadership all the countries use their WDM arsenals at the same time. To avoid this, Skynet send a bot back to jumpstart its creation. Kyle Reese is sent to stop that. Timeline 2: Enter John Connor. When Reese is sent back he still meets Sarah in the process of trying to stop the bot (not necessarily a terminator as it isn't a combat mission), tells Sarah the fate of the world and stops the bot while dying. This spurs her to raising John to be leader not only to stop the machines but to stop us from destroying it. Humanity fairs much better with John's leadership causing him to be targeted for termination so they still create the time machine and Reese is still sent back. This timeline has his mission to protecting Sarah. Timeline 3: Terminator.... the movie That's just what was inspired watching your video. It helps me to explain a more consistent John Connor in my head.

[@jimmwagner]

Man those deleted scenes feel like something out of a soap opera

[@kennethsanderson442]

I always thought of the first movie as a closed loop. Everything happens because it always happened and always will.

[@BertonMelch]

That’s how I got it to.

[@thaisonroofing1963]

Exactly! So we only needed The terminator , Terminator: Judge ment day and James Cameron's future war :Terminator 2029 AD.

[@jamestkirkcameron9189]

I don't understand the closed loop theory. Could you explain? I am thinking like the video creator, which came first the chicken or the egg? If it's a closed loop, how does it all start?

[@kennethsanderson442]

@Testbed Elite I couldn't have said it better myself! 👍

[@tripandroctonus7787]

The real victim in all of this is Pugsly... I don't think anyone retrieved him from the apartment...

[@tripandroctonus7787]

@@simonwoodhouse1258 :O Then skynet sent him back to an alternate time....

[@kobrien4121]

Don't worry Pugsly was adopted by Sanchez and lived out his life in Isthmus 🌍

[@tripandroctonus7787]

@@kobrien4121 Good, I can sleep well tonight knowing Pugsly had a good life.

[@TaskerStreete]

Poor Pugsly, someone probably made a belt out of him.

[@tripandroctonus7787]

@@TaskerStreeteI feel like that would be a small belt. but I am unfamiliar with belt making lol

[@markraimo1283]

I always felt there were multiple timelines with the first film. Meaning it always seemed to me the events of the first film had already happened and that by the time we see it in the film it is just on repeat. Same with T2 because Kyle talks about John showing them how to smash the terminators into junk. How would John know if he hadn't already been around a Terminator before like in T2. Also the Terminator tells young John that his older self reprogrammed the Terminator to be his protector. If you go by the deleted scene in T2 where they take out the CPU chip to reset the switch. John learned about the Terminator in doing so. So I think T1 and T2 are already in a time loop by the time we see it.

[@psychoj867]

We are on similar wavelengths with this, but I see things a little differently. I see the original film as being the 4th timeline. I don’t think anyone could be John’s father besides Kyle. I see it like this: Timeline 1: No time travel, Sarah has a normal life, there is no John Connor. Judment Day is August 29, 2037. Humans use time displacement device to send Kyle back to 1984 with a message, “ There’s no fate but what we make for ourselves.” A warning in hopes of preemptively stopping Skynet. Timeline 2: No one believes Kyle when he tries to warn them. But he manages to convince Sarah. He tells Sarah Judgement Day happens August 29, 2037. They fall in love. She becomes pregnant. They attempt and fail to blow up Cyberdyne Systems. Kyle convinces Sarah to run, Kyle is arrested. Eventually he is released and together they raise John to be a military leader. Under John’s leadership the human survivors become a formidable force and Skynet is on the brink of defeat. Kyle still sent back with a warning, but this time John chooses him, knowing Kyle is his father. Skynet sends a Terminator back hoping to kill Sarah before John can be born. Timeline 3: Kyle again attempts the warning no one believe besides Sarah. He tells her Judgment Day is in 2037. Kyle blindsided when a Terminator shows up trying to kill Sarah. Much like the film, they corner the Terminator at Cyberdyne Systems, where Kyle is killed Sarah crushes it in a hydraulic press. Miles Dyson working off the recovered CPU from the T-101 advances his work by decades. Judgment Day now happens August 29, 1997. Kyle is sent back to protect Sarah. Timeline 4: The first film

[@Nathan-lt5hr]

The one thing that blows a hole in a lot of these theories is that in the first movie Kyle Reece admits he volunteered to go back. He wasn’t hand picked or anything. So John Connor didn’t send him back with the intention of making sure he was conceived. I like to think that the John Connor of the future who sent Kyle back had a different father and the John Connor we get in T2 is a different John Connor all together who’s dad IS actually Kyle Reece. The only thing left unexplained is how Sarah gets the skills to train future John Connor if she never got toughened up with her experiences with Kyle and also that photograph...

[@sexistatheist6464]

*Nathan wrote: "The one thing that blows a hole in a lot of these theories is that in the first movie Kyle Reece admits he volunteered to go back. He wasn’t hand picked or anything. So John Connor didn’t send him back with the intention of making sure he was conceived."* Kyle was hand-picked... he just didn't know it. We see this played out in Terminator Genisys. At the start of the movie, Kyle volunteers to be the one to go through the time machine. John asks "Why should I send you?", and Kyle replies "You know why. Everything you've told me about her, I know her John. Let me save her." It's revealed later in the movie that John knew Kyle was his father all along, and was presumably manipulating him with the photo of Sarah and everything he told him about her, in order to ensure he fulfilled his role in history. *Nathan wrote: "I like to think that the John Connor of the future who sent Kyle back had a different father and the John Connor we get in T2 is a different John Connor all together who’s dad IS actually Kyle Reece. The only thing left unexplained is how Sarah gets the skills to train future John Connor if she never got toughened up with her experiences with Kyle and also that photograph..."* There's also the fact that in T2, the date of Judgment Day wasn't obviously brought forward by anything that happened in the first film. In T2, Sarah mentions that Judgment Day is due to occur on August 29, 1997, which is a date she was presumably given by Kyle before he died. T2 itself is set in either 1994 or 1995, and Miles Dyson is on the verge of a breakthrough, but hasn't actually created Skynet yet, so it appears that the events of the first movie did nothing to speed up the timing of Skynet's development. That makes sense if those events had already happened in the timeline Kyle came from. It doesn't make sense if Dyson originally created Skynet entirely off his own back. There's a strong case for arguing that he wouldn't have created Skynet at all without the T-800's CPU inspiring him. As he said in T2: "It was scary stuff, radically advanced. I mean, it was smashed, it didn't work, but... it gave us ideas, took us in new directions, I mean things we would have never... all my work was based on that thing."

[@pooplord6688]

This video does kind of explain that. The movie is the 3rd timeline. The 1st timeline, neither Kyle Reese nor the Terminator are present in 1984. They get sent back at the end of the war with the machines, resulting in the 2nd timeline. In this timeline, Sarah does get toughened up with her experiences with Kyle and the Terminator, resulting in that photograph which Kyle Reese gets ahold of somehow, which leads him to go back and have an even closer relationship with Sarah in the 3rd timeline, which is the movie we see.

[@ramonvargas5928]

The Terminator (1 & 2) is like reading a book, you can take the first page of a book and move it to the end of the story, still the same story. In Terminator 1 & 2, time CAN NOT be changed, going back in time only fulfills time events. John Connor already knew that, that's why he sent Reese to make sure he's born. John did not want to change history since they won the war, now Skynet wanted to change history because it lost the war against humanity, it thought that by sending a Terminator back to 1984 it would "change" history but what Skynet did not know was that by sending the first Terminator, it fulfilled a history that was already written. Skynet took the first strike against humanity but at the end of the story, Skynet was destined to lose the war no matter what. You can not change a history that has already been written! "There's no fate but what we make for ourselves" or simply "No Fate" that was just a theory in the future to give people hope.

[@brandonprotega5175]

Best explanation EVER! Thank you!

[@sc239]

You are contradicting yourself.. If time CAN NOT be changed, Sarah CAN NOT be killed so sending Kyle back is redundant.

[@ramonvargas5928]

There are no contradictions, the Terminator predestination paradox was an integral part of The Terminator, the first movie in the Terminator franchise. There are two main examples where a future time traveler goes back intime and FULLFILLS their role in history (rather than changing it). In T2, everything went exactly has it was written in history. Besides, John himself did not want to change anything; he knew as a boy that the Resistance will win the war. Skynet was the one that wanted to change history not knowing it was just fulfilling history.

[@sc239]

The original end of T2 shows Judgement Day doesnt happen on original date.. And the actual ending heavily implies they stop it when T-800 melts himself. A central theme of T2 is "THE FUTURE IS NOT SET. There is no fate, but what we make for ourselves".. Why you left the first part out to support your argument IDK. That wasnt a theory in the future. It was a direct message from Future John to Sarah. The contradiction.. The future CAN NOT be changed, but you have to send someone from the future to fulfill time events in the past to ensure it. You are looking at it through the lens of the CHANGED future. IF T1 was a standalone movie that works, but T2 throws that out the window to explore the Future is not Set theme. Your last reply was more accurate. John knew the events of T1 lead to this timeline, so he had to ensure they happened. Its not that the future CAN NOT be changed. He is choosing not to change it at that point, because his existence means it works as planned. T1 ends with no change to future. In T2, armed with detailed knowledge from The Terminator of how the future plays out (and Johns message) Sarah Connor GOES AFTER Skynet rather than retreating to a bunker and fulfilling her role in the old timeline, and allowing billions to die. This alters the future... Whether that splits the timeline and leads to multiple futures? But T1 future is changed by the events of T2.

[@davenierop1540]

so basically in the original/unaltered timeline John and his mother had a normal live and he had a father who was not Kyle before time travel and was never around and John did go to the military to be a hero and for Miles Dyson he just work by work though year by year creating Skynet before T-800's time travel and plus when the war against machines happened Kyle just felt in love with Sarah though hearing stories about her from John since the photo of her did't happen till the time travel happened or maybe it was a different photo during the unaltered timeline

[@davidbreakspear8776]

Plot hole from T2 judgement day....in the first film Kyle explained whilst being interrogated that only something surrounded by living tissue could pass through the time displacement machine. That means the T-1000 should not have been able to make the time jump, unless skynet figured out a way to do so when creating the 2nd version of the paradoxical machine. Genesis throws an even bigger spanner in the works by adding Pops into the timeline, in whereas another T-800 is sent back to a time before the first film to protect a younger Sarah Connor, yet we never found out who sent Pops back in that film.

[@mccarthy5825]

It's explained in some material and I think in a commentary by Cameron that the T1000 can create some sort of bio field that acts like living tissue to allow time travel. Also there is only one T1000 made because Skynet is scared if it. Somewhere else In a comic I think they show a big skin egg thing grown by Skynet to sheath things sent back. And I think another one showed some prisoner who is loaded up with weapons inserted surgically and then torn apart by Terminators when they get to the past. On another note, I always thought it was a bit weird how towards the end of T2, Bob didn't care about losing his skin and not passing for human. If too much is lost they get all rotten and waxy, like in the first one. How would he know how long he has to protect John for? For all he knows he has to protect John through the nuclear war. I think in the movie we see, Bob has been given all of John's memories, like he knew that it all ended in the steel mill and when the SWAT team started taking him to pieces he just thought 'its over soon so what?' Also in the novelisation Sarah asks, before lowering him into the steel 'Are you afraid?' and he says 'Yes'. Really wished they kept that in. As for who sent Pops, that's not a plot hole, it was specifically meant to be left out of Genesys and explained in the sequel.

[@connor2222]

@@mccarthy5825 i think he looked waxy because of the makeup and prosthetics for the time. i’m pretty sure that scene when he takes his own eye out and u see him looking in the mirror, it is just an animatronic head

[@mccarthy5825]

@@connor2222 good point and they probably wrote the lore to support that. It's stated in novelisation that if a certain amount of damage is done to the flesh covering it can't heal and starts to rot. Originally there's meant to be a scene where Arnie eats some chocolate bars, wrapper and all, to sustain his living tissue. Remember the scene with the flies and smell and the 'fuck you, asshole'... Thats because it smells so bad since he was rotting. Edit: PS, have you seen the recent video where they found the animatronic head??! 😂 It's as scary as the rotting, perishing Turtle rubber heads from the 90s movies! 😂 I still have my special edition Terminator 2 disc dvd, some really cool edition of T2 with the extended and theatrical versions, tons of extras...reminds me of my favourite dvds ever... The Alien ones..wow they were unreal. And the special edition of Aliens is one of my favourite films ever. James Cameron too of course! I still love how they did so much with so little budget for Terminator. The way they shot the HKs and future war scenes... How the used that head for Arnie like you said... The stop motion and puppet work for the steel mill scenes... Just magic! The ONLY thing I like about any of the sequels past T2 was the future war scene in Genesys and the assault on that base. That actually used a LOT of stuff that was left out from the script of T2. I was such a huge fan of T2 when it came out. I was only a kid but I remember I had the Mega Drive version of the Arcade game. And I had some toys.. A half cop, half steel exploding T1000, a weird black and glow in the dark endoskeleton, a regular steel one and a T800 Arnie that half his torso popped off! for Christmas one of my presents was the 'Bio Flesh Regenerator'... You pop these solid endoskeletons into an Arnie mould, mix up this 'flesh' then press the thing and it covered the endos with flesh... Supposedly! The air bubbles were a nightmare and you had to cut all this floppy extra bits and edges away... You were left with a weird, unmoving Arnie in flesh trunks, with this sticky, flesh stuff on him. BUT the fun was damaging him... So of course I would take an arm off... Then use thumbtacks or a paper clip to simulate bullets(complete with sound effects!)... I'd get the T1000 in which had a big spike for an arm and carve the rest up! and rip the head off or something! I tried putting the proper moving T800 endo into it but it didn't fit...after a while the 'flesh' woulld dry and turn to a sort of chalky powder stuff. Eventually the two tubs of powder ran out and that was the end of that... But that was waxy as anything 😂

[@AjTolly]

I think you forgot to mention in the second timeline there is no terminator 2, terminator 2 only happens in the last timeline, that's where it ends. (ignoring of course terminator 3 and sequels)

[@PipeRetrogamer]

I noticed original John Connor's father might be that guy Sarah was going on a date with that same night (can't remember his name). My theory is that in that timeline he saw there was a guy killing every Sarah Connor in L.A and called to cancel the date making some excuse cause he got scared. Oh, and he didn't tell her because he was an asshole.

[@richardched6085]

He might have been an asshole in the previous timeline which is why Sarah doesn't name her son "John Morsky".

[@sterlingjohnson5147]

I disagree. Kyle Reese stated he was from "one possible future". The Terminator was sent from a possible future to our present; setting into motion events for that future. The destroyed terminator parts founded skynet tech. Kyle begot John. The whole point to the story is the paradox.

[@johnlee5164]

Well your right he did say that..BUT what if the "one possible future" is the one future can be present in...you can only be part of one but are able to affect others...seems plausible right? Like I can influence yours but only you can benefit from it than it changes when the ball is in your court which would validate also "the future is not set..." blag blah

[@adamstapleton9756]

I always liked the theory that Reese was never John's father to begin with, once the Terminator was sent back John knew he was screwed and essentially had to choose someone to be a different John Conner's father to insure the destruction of skynet. He chose his best soldier who could prep Sarah and in turn prep the new version of John in what the future would look like thus insuring his success.

[@akamachoman7244]

I have a big theory: so predator is conected with alien right? So imagine if after the events of predator 1 lead to the government looking for a way to beat the predators. Solution: make a killer robot based on the only person who has defeated a predator and therefore creating the terminators. At some point the terminators go rogue and we get terminator. Tadaaa

[@treedwellindude]

AKA machoman that is brilliant!

[@Ayanematrixdesigns00]

If you read the crossover comics from Darkhorse, this idea is the basis for how things end up with Aliens vs Predators vs Terminator, even with it finishing up the storyline for Alien 4. The only major difference being that androids pretty much take over for the Terminators by the time Aliens and it's subsequent movies and comic spin-offs play out.

[@Jedibenuk]

Hi. I'm Master Staff Sergeant John Candy!

[@chrismolaison9682]

If I may add one point, Sarah had a date with a random dude who she was supposed to go to the movies with, but he cancelled on her. Do you think it was because of the Sarah Connor murders on the news? Mabye he got spoked and cancelled the date. What I'm trying to say is, in the first timeline where there was no Kyle Reese or Terminator coming back through time it is very likely her date would have actually happened and quite possibly an accidental pregnancy, resulting in the first John Connor.

[@mackychloe]

Interesting.

[@kregadeth5562]

Chris Molaison very good observation ! I like the crap out of that idea. This is all cannon now. Every body take notes

[@aaronscott4984]

Who knows that is first date maybe dude already knocked her up also remember that

[@0427WowCow]

My theory has always been that the Terminator and Kyle Reese were trying to kill/protect the wrong Sarah Conner.

[@petermayer5903]

and just to be safe, Kyle knocked up all 20 Sarah Connors in the phone book

[@number3stunner118]

I'm pretty sure that Sarah Connor who looked like she was probably close to menopause...that was the original - but the goal posts were moved on the poor terminator, because "You don't mess with time".

[@diskonnektion5496]

Good effort, but in my opinion, the first movie is a time loop that has been played over and over again, possibly a near infinite number of times. The loop had once been created but it's origin in my opinion comes from a timeline that had neither a John Connor nor Skynet. In the original timeline (T0), there was no Skynet or John Connor. The original timeline is essentially our timeline without a Judgment Day happening. Sometime in the far future (possibly the 22nd or 23rd) century, a defense-system AI technology is developed, but this technology has multiple components, including those that prevent it from attacking humans or developing self-awareness. At the same time, assisted by this new AI, humanity develops technology for limited time travel. During one the time-travel experiment, one component chip is sent back in time to 1984, creating timeline 1 (T1). In timeline 1 (T1), or the Skynet timeline, the chip sent back from the far future to 1984 is discovered by employees of Cyberdyne. Unfortunately, the chip only includes the advanced AI system that had been developed in the future without any of the protective programs that would prevent it from developing self-awareness or attacking humanity. Cyberdyne uses the chip to quickly develop Skynet that is then sold to the US Department of Defense. In 1997, Skynet is given control of the US nuclear arsenal, and the system decides to initiate Judgment Day by launching a nuclear strike against Russia, which retaliates with a nuclear strike against the United States. 3 billion people are killed, and Skynet then starts manufacturing hunter killers and terminators to exterminate or enslave the survivors. In this timeline, humanity is not very well prepared against the machines and fights a very difficult war. At the same time, Skynet develops technology for time travel. In 2029, humanity, realizing that it is losing the war, decides to send a team of elite officers led by Kyle Reese to infiltrate Skynet’s base hosting the time displacement device to travel back to 1984 to prevent the appearance of Skynet. Kyle Reese uses the time displacement device to travel back to 1984, but realizing the Resistance’s plan, Skynet sends its new T-800 series Terminator (Model 101) to go after Reese to kill the resistance fighter in 1984 before he is able to stymie Cyberdyne’s plans to develop Skynet. This leads to the creation of timeline 2 (T2). In timeline 2 (T2), or the John Connor timeline, Kyle Reese arrives to 1984 with a mission to stymie Cyberdyne’s plan to develop Skynet. He is pursued by the T-800 Terminator sent by Skynet to kill Reese. The Terminator pursues Reese for several weeks, with Reese developing a plan to destroy Cyberdyne’s headquarters. In one way or another, Reese meets Sarah Connor, a lonely waitress with a somewhat lackluster love life, and the two quickly fall in love. While Sarah Connor does not believe Reese’s stories about the future at first, she finally comes to believe him after witnessing how difficult it is to stop the Terminator. She gets pregnant from Reese. The 2 eventually try to attack one of Cyberdyne’s facilities in Los Angeles but are ambushed by the Terminator. Cyberdyne’s headquarters are blown up together with the Terminator’s head, but the explosion also kills Reese. Sarah survives and gives birth to John Connor in 1985. Unfortunately, the chip from the destroyed Terminator is discovered by Cyberdyne and the company uses information from the chip to start developing Skynet. At first, Sarah Connor is oblivious to this, but she then discovers this and realizes she has to try to destroy Cyberdyne again. Knowing that Judgment Day can still happen, she starts training John Connor and imparting the knowledge she learned from Reese. Her attempt to destroy Cyberdyne in 1991 is unsuccessful, with Sarah getting placed into a psychiatric hospital and John being placed in foster care. After numerous attempts, Sarah eventually escapes the hospital in 1997, possibly just a few weeks before Judgment Day. She manages to recruit the services of one her ex-military boyfriends to take John Connor out of the foster family and escape to Mexico. Since there is very little time, Sarah focuses on finding shelter for her son rather than destroying Cyberdyne. Cyberdyne develops Skynet and Judgment Day happens on August 29, 1997. Both Sarah and John survive the nuclear apocalypse hiding in a bunker in Mexico, and both join the human resistance to fight against the machines. In this timeline, John Connor proves to know exactly how to defeat the machines, as he has the knowledge that Sarah raised him with, with Sarah received the know-how from the time-traveling Kyle Reese from timeline 1. In timeline 2, John Connor’s leadership eventually leads humanity to victory, and in 2029, Skynet is all but defeated. Realizing its defeat, Skynet send the T-800 Terminator back to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor before John Connor is conceived. This time, it is John Connor who sends back Kyle Reese to protect his mother. At the same time, John Connor discovers Skynet also sent back a T-1000 Terminator to the year 1995 to kill himself as a 10-year-old boy living with his foster family at that time. 2029 John Connor finds a T-800 Terminator in Skynet’s compound and reprograms it to then send it back to 1995 to protect his younger self from the T-1000. Thus, the time loop that we see play out in The Terminator and the first half of Terminator 2: Judgment Day is formed. This timeloop plays over and over again many times. Each time, Sarah Connor escapes Pescadero in 1995 (much earlier than in timeline 2, as she is assisted by her own son and the reprogrammed T-800 Terminator). However, since the T-1000 is hunting for John Connor, she realizes it is safer to hide in Mexico than to go back to the US to try to prevent Judgment Day. Sarah, John, and the T-800 Terminator then go into hiding in Mexico and hide until Judgment Day, with John receiving additional training in that time period. During Judgment Day, the T-1000 Terminator ends up getting destroyed in LA as he is in the epicenter of the nuclear explosion while the T-800 protector Terminator sacrifices himself to ensure Sarah and John have access to one of the most secure shelters somewhere in Mexico. John re-emerges as the leader of humanity and uses his extensive knowledge and training to lead humans to victory in the War against Skynet and the machines. In 2029, Skynet sends the T-800 Terminator to kill Sarah Connor in 1984 and the T-1000 Terminator to kill John Connor in 1995, and John Connor sends Kyle Reese to protect Sarah and the reprogrammed T-800 Terminator (this time recognizing a familiar face from his childhood) to protect himself in 1995. The time loop plays a nearly infinite number of times. Due to quantum nondeterminism, there some extremely minute differences that start to accumulate as each new time loop is played. These differences cause Sarah to experience progressively more vivid nightmares about Judgment Day while she is committed at Pescadero. At one point, this reaches a breaking point, and the neural pathways in Sarah’s brain motivate her to try to kill Skynet developer Myles Bennett Dyson, as we see in Terminator 2: Judgment Day. My theory is not perfect, but it retains the near biblical and symbolic importance of John Connor as always being the literal son of the future. A timeline without John Connor and Skynet is essentially our timeline, and a timeline with only Skynet and no John results in the annihilation of humanity, with humanity engaging a last-ditch effort to destroy Skynet before it is conceived by sending Kyle to the past. Kyle doesn't exactly succeed, but conceives a son with Sarah Connor, who, thanks to his upbringing, leads humanity to victory against Skynet by 2029.

[@andrewdopple6946]

damn, this is genius. I'm leaning more towards the three-universe theory, since I thought it up as a child about 10 years ago. But if i was allowed to retcon the entire terminator franchise, I would go this route. Make a new movie using the T1 timeline, a tv series covering between T1 to T2, and then an animated series filling the gaps from T0 to T2. Dark Fate and Genysis just written off as not-so-fan service.

[@diskonnektion5496]

@@andrewdopple6946 Thank you! Wish we could see that come to life someday…maybe a movie called Skynet about the development of that network in T1 and how it culminates in Judgment Day on August 29, 1997, with the normalcy of the first 2/3 of the movie turning into the nightmare of the flashback sequences from The first Terminator movie…if you search KZbin for Skynet EAS scenario, that’s the kind of feel and fear-inducing scenario that would be amazing for a movie I think…no Arnie, no heroes, just protagonists we can relate to, maybe something along the lines of Rise of the Planet of the Apes where a normal world turns into something nightmarish…

[@jasonleetaiwan]

But why not send the T-1000 to 1984 if they had one? Is it because they wanted the T-800 to lose and help kick start Skynet?

[@diskonnektion5496]

@@jasonleetaiwan If you are referring to the time loop we are all familiar with, it is because Skynet only produced a single T-1000 robot. It was not mass produced like the T-800, as Skynet feared the T-1000 could become self-aware and rebel against Skynet. Since only 1 T-1000 was available, Skynet decided that it was more reasonable to send the T-1000 to kill John Connor in 1995 and that a simpler T-800 could do the job with Sarah Connor in 1984. If you are referring to the Skynet timeline (T1) I proposed, it could very well be that Skynet never developed the T-1000 in this timeline as the initial chip that led to the development of Skynet was not from the T-800 but rather from the distant future. It could also be that since humanity was losing the war anyway, Skynet never felt the need to further develop its line of Terminators and hence did not invest resourced in developing the T-1000.