The Thumb Trigger Concept Anew: Iron Horse's TOR

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The idea of a thumb trigger in place of a traditional index finger trigger has come up a number of times in firearms history (the Pieri carbines tested in France and Italy, the Winchester Thumb Trigger .22, etc). The most recent iteration (and the first semiauto one, as far as I can tell) is Iron Horse's "TOR", or "Thumb Operated Receiver". It's pretty simple in operation, with the trigger located high in the back of the grip and actuated by the thumb. It is suggested that this style will be better for precision shooting, better in cold weather, and better for people with a handicap that inhibits use of the index finger. Well, the one of those I can test out here in Arizona is precision shooting...so let's see how the thumb trigger compares to a traditional trigger, with all else remaining the same.
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[@sqeeye3102]

I'm really glad things like this exist for people that want/need them. Not every product needs to cater to everyone and hopefully this one gets some disabled shooters a chance to get into the sport.

[@Yourantsally]

Yeah the problem is when the market doesn't really have enough space for a product, a company can go under, just from the cost of production and warehousing the stuff. Small niche companies rarely work anymore unless they charge out the wazoo

[@letthetunesflow]

Unless it is run as a charity. I know people like Ben Heck make one handed gaming controllers for people with disabilities. I could see this working better if it is run like a charity, and having people support it for civilian and retired injured and disabled veterans. I think products like these are much needed in all product classes, just like cell phones have accessibility mode, we have lever door handles now installed in all new public buildings, gaming controllers for one handed use etc… I think as a society we really need to support accessibility in all areas of life. But maybe that’s just me…

[@neonshoji]

@@Yourantsally You're right, unfortunately. But then you have examples like the Sig brace which was designed for disabled shooters and then took the industry by storm. The M&P EZ found its market as well. With 3D printing technology advancing, hopefully more out of the box thinking for impaired and disabled shooters might become more feasible.

[@Kumimono]

@@Yourantsally That's the thing one sees in gadgets of all kinds. What might seem like just a novelty, or useless, lazy, for the average consumer, might be hugely useful for someone with particular issue with their hands, for example. But it's a small market, so the marketing uses really strange examples of an average Joe/Jane having way too much trouble with an easy task. A task not so easy, if you have one functioning arm. In this case, I hope the folks who get a thing like this for the novelty, off-set the costs, so it stays around for folks, who need it.

[@3ric585]

Exactly, the more options, the better.

[@yorick6035]

Respect to Iron Horse for insisting that Ian would do a video on their system, and also awesome logo. I wish them all the best

[@JohnsonLobster]

It looks like something an angsty teen would draw in his maths book at school.

[@DDdrifter]

@@TheFirstCurse1 Yes, respect to iron horse for knowing that Ian's review could end up hurting their sales of this gun to people thinking it is a gadget gun that will instantly improve their accuracy. This gun should be clearly marketed to those lacking the ability to fire traditional firearms.

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

@@DDdrifter "end up hurting their sales" That was not an option. Company knew exactly what they are doing. Thumb up, thumb down. Does not matter.

[@yorick6035]

@@JohnsonLobster now that you mention it, it does look like sometime teenage mee would draw. Perhaps that is why I like it

[@braydenh190]

Getting their rifle into the forgotten weapon system before they go out of business...can't tell if they are smart or dumb.

[@drdoom-skull2244]

In super cold environments, you could wear 4-finger mittens or the 2-finger type mittens and still be able to shoot. I think the more likely market niche is indeed people with hand problems, as pointed out by many comments, many older shooters suffer from arthritis. Also, with such a system, there is a lot of room to design grips with unusual shapes to suit various disabilities.

[@aritakalo8011]

You could, but neither is as warm as full "no-can-do" mittens. Which is why full mittens are used, issued and worn. Frost bitten index finger is nothing to sneeze at. There is such colds, that one cant just pack enough insulation, if it is supposed to fit in the web between the small fingers. Heck there is such cold one prefers to even pull thumb in to go keep company with rest of the fingers for shared warmth. People don't wear mittens, because they don't know about gloves. They wear mittens, when gloves aren't warm enough.

[@JD-tn5lz]

HahahahahahaHA. No. Obviously you don't live where or near where I do, just north of Denali. You choice is to take your gloves completely off and hope you can take the shot before your fingers (even with good liners) start hurting or numb out. Frostbite is no joke, and once "bitten" you are susceptible in that area for the rest of your life.

[@martinlarsen7354]

@@JD-tn5lz Yup - there are sections of my face (cheekbones) that is noticeably more sensitive to cold than the rest. Lived in Greenland and that part of the face was the most exposed, the tip of my nose was covered as well as my jaw.

[@johnpalmer5131]

yes, I could see where this would actually work.

[@dtgs4502]

@@aritakalo8011 This is why I wish they made aerogel gloves. I've seen ones marketed as that, but I'm skeptical given one company that uses it in their jackets with tests showing them being blasted by liquid nitrogen has poor reviews on the gloves. Although perhaps there really is no material to make mittens obsolete.

[@andrewmn3024]

The fact that you have 18 rounds through an early generation thumb trigger and it’s even comparable to a refined modern index finger trigger that you have extensive experience on is impressive. I wonder what the difference would be in a high stress scenario. Would a mash of the thumb results in as poor of a shot as a jerked index finger?

[@lvcsslacker]

I was thinking that with the thumb press, it may be a natural reaction to grip the... uhh... grip a bit harder to compensate for a lack of training on it.

[@Milvus_In_Excelsis]

Even with bias, less confidence shooting it for the first time. That's very impressive

[@Milvus_In_Excelsis]

@@lostalone9320 high stress situation you fall back on your training. What you feel comfortable with

[@DredlyLB]

Wonder how much of that loss of accuracy is caused from the forced grip angle and location, having a high and tight grip provides additional support to keep the rifle from moving, having to go way lower creates a lever and reduces stability and losing the thumb reduces pressure as well. - also, as a left handed shooter, any company that designs their brass to shoot straight back like that can go to hell

[@vidard9863]

i don't know. in real high stress not having an oppositional grip with the thumb may result in loss of control, particularly if running for cover. additionally the trigger guard forces the thumb to be on the trigger, with no safe rest i am aware of. further if i imagine lowering the rifle i can see situations where i would effectively force the trigger against the thumb. intellectually it seems like an opportunity to fumble and have some negligent discharges.

[@joebland5331]

I met a guy at a range once, he was missing his index and middle finger on his right hand and had a hunting rifle that was a thumb trigger. It was pretty neat.

[@Robbiebert14]

In very cold weather, where gloves simply aren't warm enough, seems like a real advantage to be able to use with mittens. Very interesting!

[@MrJord1994]

Till it gets stuffed with snow or mud

[@Limpchimps]

@@MrJord1994 its hunting, not a war. Why would your gun be in the snow or mud?

[@danrahn3968]

@@Limpchimps its almost a guarantee opening day for white tale deer in northern Michigan there will be snow and cold temps. Also for coyotes in January and February witch is the most prominent time they are out because of their breading time, we see extremely cold weather in the -f usually -10 to -15.

[@jeice13]

@@danrahn3968 i think he was asking why they would be on the trigger and grip not the ground

[@Crosshair84]

@@MrJord1994 If that trigger area is getting stuffed with snow or mud, then you're in a situation that would take down a normal AR as well.

[@jlchulilla]

There is another benefit: pistol grip would be quite easy to design to be quick foldable and protect the trigger during transportation

[@NamenotCrazy]

Very clever!

[@1FatLittleMonkey]

I was actually surprised that the grip didn't fold. It looks so much like it's meant to. (I also just noticed that FW's old video on the P90 bullpup is on my sidebar, and now I'm wondering what the thumb trigger would allow for that kind of rifle layout. Perhaps losing an inch of height on the lower/grips and drastically reducing projections/snags.)

[@spacewater7]

You do realize that somebody at Ironhorse just smacked themselves on the face with their palm on reading this. Oh, I'm sorry, they didn't facepalm, they used the back of their hand ✋

[@pootytang2872]

that's a really good idea dude

[@whatisbestinlife8112]

I'm actually impressed the two results are as close as they are. Familiarity is undoubtedly an issue. Uncountable number of traditional trigger rounds and the resulting muscle memory is going to produce at least a decent advantage over an entirely new finger movement by an entirely different finger and the resulting different hand placement on the grip. Especially for measured, precision shooting. Be interesting to see results for someone who has at least a few thousand (or even a few hundred) rounds more familiarity and resulting muscle memory build up with the thumb trigger.

[@Skyfox94]

It's like driving an automatic for the first time in your life (after only driving stick-shift) and trying to brake with your left foot. Not that you should try that either way - but muscle memory kicks in and if you don't actively keep it in mind you'll be eating the dash two or three times before your body finally realizes "Nope, the left foot won't do anything during driving today"

[@1FatLittleMonkey]

He was also using a very light trigger for the traditional lower, that also reduces the issues from uneven trigger pull. A novice or irregular shooter with a heavier trigger might have been a better test.

[@keptinkaos6384]

it would come down to muscle memory.

[@JesseS.]

familiarity can be a disadvantage, like anticipating recoil

[@alanp621]

I remember machining those grips when working for the company that manufactured most of the parts for iron horse. I always wondered how they would would go together when finally assembled.

[@chevyfried]

At any point did someone think to stop them and say Skeletonized bad?

[@alanp621]

@@chevyfried not that I'm aware of... we were a prototype manufacturer and we did actually play a relatively large part in it's design. I do remember remarking how uncomfortable and bulky the grip itself was. I did however like the thumb trigger, that aspect felt relatively comfortable and natural.

[@LS-jv9hp]

No one ever test it fire and notice how it gives you a facial?

[@MechanicalRabbits]

@@LS-jv9hp that only happens because Ian is left handed. If you fire this right handed you should have no issues with cases flying in your face.

[@LS-jv9hp]

@@MechanicalRabbits That should still be tested though since 10-12 percent of the population is left handed.

[@jasonsmith1415]

It would be interesting to see how a first time shooter does with both systems.

[@edwhitson9873]

That's the only true way to test it

[@alphagt62]

I was thinking, if someone got the gun away from you, they would have no idea how to use it. Hopefully you can take advantage of their confusion and act before they figure it out. Almost like a secret trigger.

[@evanf1443]

@@alphagt62 historically police officers had the same benefit with a manual safety. People who took the firearm away from them would have to take considerably more time to figure out a manual safety they weren’t familiar with as compared to a revolver, which gave officers time to act. It’s one reason officers started to move away from revolvers.

[@surfingtothestars]

@@evanf1443 most carry Glocks which doesn't have a manual safety

[@evanf1443]

@@surfingtothestars these days glocks are common but there was a time between revolvers and glocks. The 1911 was actually a very common sidearm for police for a long time. Smith and Wesson specifically designed handguns to be used as police sidearms, including designs that had a manual safety (the 4013 is an example if I’m not mistaken). And even today Glocks aren’t the only used sidearm by police, though I agree they are common. A lot of departments require sidearms with manual safeties or magazine disconnects, neither of which glock has. Wilson combat does a video detailing the concept I described in my previous comment if you want to go check that out.

[@DoRC]

I don't really see this being popular for guns but I feel like the taser company needs to adopt a thumb trigger. It baffles me while they haven't already. If the taser company had a thumb trigger it would essentially completely eliminate the possibility of a police officer accidentally shooting someone when they meant to tase them. It's kind of hard to mistake your taser for your gun when the triggers not in the same place. I actually suggested this to taser but I never got a response. Edit: before you guys go judging people who make mistakes take a look at yourself. Have you ever made a mistake? Have you ever been under severe duress? Did you act absolutely perfectly when you were? We're human. We make mistakes. We all do

[@joeojeda4651]

You underestimate: adrenaline, how under trained police are, how over worked police is and just plain old stupidity. But it might help.

[@bixnood7273]

Fantastic idea!

[@mandaloretheproud6622]

@@joeojeda4651 Except if this hypothetical police officer suffering from all these issues tries to pull his taser, but pulls his gun, he ain't firing that with his thumb so he wouldn't be able to fire.

[@KickyFut]

*This!* Absolutely this!

[@drdoom-skull2244]

Yes, in aviation, the controls are different on purpose so you know instantly what you are actioning. There is a design term for this, told me a pilot.

[@lincolnpascual]

I have a friend that could use this. He used to be a marksman, but got messed up by an explosion. Lost 3 fingers on his trigger hand, lost his left arm up to the elbow, his left eye, and his right leg up to about mid thigh. He's recovering and walking again (with a prosthetic), but he can't shoot yet, at least not easily. This would get him there since his right thumb is his only full digit remaining (he's got most of his middle finger too, thank God... you can't go through life without that finger yaknowwhatimean🖕). Wish if hard about this sooner... this would be a great Christmas present for him. I'm currently trying to build him a prosthetic attachment that will allow him to hold a rifle again with his left arm... soon as he gets fitted with the prosthetic on his arm, I can fit him with prototypes until we get it done.

[@caliberspecificreload]

Indeed! God bless you and your friend! Here's hoping for a speedy recovery, and bless you again for putting your heart into engineering something that would allow your friend to pursue his Hobby's he enjoyed before the explosion. My friends ex ran him over and he lost his trigger finger so THIS episode was immediately forwarded to him as he enjoys shooting sports as well. This may not be a mass production commercial success but it REALLY does have a profound impact on people like our friends who've been set back to a point that they can't enjoy these sports that they did before. Good on you my friend. All the best to your friend.

[@nigelft]

I honestly can't remember the channel name, but there's a engineer that made his own prosthetic hand, when he lost all four fingers on his left hand, leaving him with just his thumb. What he made is mostly based on chains (as in bicycle chains), and he deliberately went for the steampunk aesthetic, but, my God, his second iteration, after much blood, sweat, tears, and likely swearing, is amazing to the point he almost has full functionality in his left hand back ... Of course the only thing truly missing is the haptic feedback loop that is fully unconscious when, say, holding an egg between thumb and forefinger, where you apply enough pressure to not drop it, but not so much to crush it ... But, otherwise, it's pretty amazing stuff ... and a very remarkable man, as well. Hence, if he (said engineer) were a Southpaw shooter like Ian, even with his new hand, a thumb trigger would be perfect ... As for me ... I never shot a rifle, except for a .144, spring loaded, air rifle, many a decade ago. Whilst here in England, bolt action rifles are perfectly legal, what also is includes a very weird concept of the single shot M4/AR-15/M-16/AK-XX ... with, I suppose, the aim of not even having semi-auto function (although, that being said, although knife crime is pretty bad here in London, the spate of shootings that led to the ban of semi-automatic rifles, has meant mass shootings are almost a distant memory) ... aa for pistols ... the irony is what would be considered a short barrel rifle is acceptable, here, except the rules for pistols are bizzare to the point you have to see it for yourself, as it is beyond my brain to convey it adequately ... But where I was going is that, for a total novice shooter, if I had the means to be one, having a thumb trigger would be an excellent training aid as it focusing first on shot placement; point of aim vs point of impact, and the other fundamentals, before moving onto the classic trigger, and how to avoid the usual mistakes, not least that only the pad of your finger should be on the trigger. It's a reason, iirc, why the PSG-1 has such an unusual trigger ... Anywho, once I find the above engineering channel, I attach a link to that very remarkable man, in hopes it will provide inspiration to help your friend ... (OK, so once upon a time, I was nïeve to think a) I could become a doctor, and/or b) a neuropathologist, or a laboratory technician in neuropathology ... Got my Associates in Applied Biology, but life went way south (as in near Antarctic South), but that left me with an array of all kinds of text books on Anatomy, Internal Medicine, and Pathology, to mention but a few topics ... You need not say, but it very much sounds like your friend was caught in the kind of industry explosion on the scale of the Imperial Sugar Plant disaster, which quite literally blew the place apart; or, he is ex-Service whom was deployed to one of the two Sandboxes, and sadly got hit by an IED ... There is series, I think, still up here, on KZbin, called 'Taking Fire', about Afghanistan, and in particular, iirc, either US Army or a Marine base, which only had a single road as a point of access, that ran across the front of it. Their usual patrols were often to take a right out of the front 'gate', which caused a SNCO to become almost insane with paranoia, as he was constantly on the watch for the tiniest glint indicating a trip wire. Even his battle-buddy, and men below him, were worried that he was too far on edge ... if not over it ... ... but not without good reason. Their luck ranout, one day ... the lead MRAP was OK, but the middle one was hit by a blast so big, it not only toppled the MRAP over, on to its drivers side, but blew the engine to pieces, and left the front axle on the ground a few feet away. The crater left, that, what was left, indicated it was remotely detonated, was a good few feet deep, indicating that, just as the DoD were spending money like crazy, trying to.build vehicles that could withstand large detonations, the Talibans response was simply getting their bomb makes, using relatively cheap material, not least agricultural grade ammonium nitrate, to up the yields ... But I digress ... There wasn't much of the MRAP left, except what that it was, was enough that, at least, the two men whom were lost, died in one piece; a third need a immediate medivac, though, as he was in a serious, if not critical, condition ... which was tragic in of itself, as the Combat Medic whom treated him, was also severely injured during a intense firefight, not many days later ... Forgive me for going off on such a tangent, but, in reading your description of his injuries, whatever happened must've been absolutely appalling, turning his life upside down in mere moments. The fact that he's lucky to have survived, is as much a testament to the surgeons, and OR/OT staff, that operated on him, to say nothing of the physiotherapists, that helped him through some of the toughest of times (although I think the VA should be part of the DoD, not a seperate Department, fighting for the scraps left over in the Federal Discretionary Budget, along with the rest ...) And, of course, he himself. To go through that all ... brave is too small a word, although I doubt he would call himself as such. They say there's no substitute for both Character and Integrity; your friend is the living embodiment of both. If he was here, in England, he would be befitting of the St. George Cross, awarded for heroism, but without the engagement with enemy requirements that meets the Victoria Cross, our almost equivalent to the CMoH ...) [Edit: found it ... hope it helps you in helping your remarkable, if not incredible, friend ... kzbin.info ]

[@aaronholmes8568]

I hope your friend recovers well, and you are an amazing person for what you're doing to get him shooting again.

[@44hawk28]

Considering your natural unfamiliarity with a thumb trigger, I find this quite a good outcome. Especially considering that you are uniquely familiar with the trigger that you did better with. Duh. It does seem to have an excellent application towards being a winter trigger. Even the military could get into that idea.

[@rockbutcher]

There is no way that the thumb of a military mitt would fit in that slot. That is why we have trigger guards that can be rotated into the pistol grip.

[@Specter044]

@Robert Seaes The standard AR trigger guard is a plate retained with a pin on one end and a spring loaded pin on the other. A bullet tip releases one end of the plate to swing down and allow trigger operation while wearing mittens

[@Jguy101]

@Robert Seaes "Some guns" are "broken"? It's the standard design since the original M16s. I prefer the non-straight trigger guards too, integral or not, but sheesh.

[@CowboybubPercussion]

I don’t think the thumb trigger as a winter trigger is a good idea especially being theres already plenty of winter trigger concepts out there, I also don’t think that Ian, a competent shooter who has used standard triggers all his life, is a good control group for comparing the triggers for practical accuracy, I would want to see how a less competent shooter does, and see which trigger is easier to get shots on target.

[@TheZINGularity]

@@CowboybubPercussion what about the conditions where you absolutely need a full 2 finger mitten with just a thumb by itself?

[@caliberspecificreload]

A good friend of mine, his ex wife ran him over and he lost his trigger finger so I am super happy you did this Ian. I forwarded to my buddy so he can hopefully use the option of thumb trigger application for his platforms. He is a shooting enthusiast and the incident really handicapped him in the way of shooting and ability to use Various platform's. Thanks Ian! I'm so glad you did THIS!

[@HeavilyArmed]

The brass flying at your face had me laughing because as a fellow left handed shooter, I know that struggle far too well. Nice video Ian and merry Christmas!

[@bannedbycommieyoutube5time920]

Left handed? You abomination! 🤣

[@eternaloptimist2840]

I'd expect there would be ways around the problem (apart from a left handed gun) like an add-on deflector, or eye protection with added face protection.

[@ferrisbueller9991]

From another lefty, ya both are lucky your eye dominance matches your hand dominance. Way back to little kid bow and arrow me I was like, there is something wrong. Decided to switch hands on a bow and made all the difference. When it came to 22 rifle competitive shooting when I was older, I certainly wouldn't have performed half as well if I shot left handed. And even when it came to fencing competitively, it made a difference. Or maybe I was never a lefty and just cross-handed. While I can write/draw with both hands adequately, I naturally took to the left hand ad a 2yr with a crayon to an adult with a brush. But through all of this it most be noted that I could not throw a ball with my left ever, far better with my right. The muscle was always naturally bigger. After fencing, it took the asymmetry to comical heights.

[@halfknight6706]

@@ferrisbueller9991 As a fellow left handed right eye dominant fellow, yeah. Shit sux.

[@Psilomuscimol]

I am left handed and can shoot any hand

[@vivalafiaga]

Question? Wouldn't a thumb trigger also benefit elderly/arthritic folks? I feel like it would put less strain on buggered joints than a standard trigger...

[@peterbills4129]

Someone else left a similar comment, so you guys must be onto something. :)

[@davehopkin9502]

@@peterbills4129 Might well be a benefit, but would there be a sufficient market to make it viable? Seems a little too niche too me

[@anonymous2513456]

That is the only reason I can think of

[@404Dannyboy]

By the time you are that arthritic I am not sure you should be handling a firearm at all. You are more likely to be a threat to yourself than anyone else if you have that poor hand control.

[@fabiovarra3698]

it depends, some could have quite a problem to move the thumb in that position, I think in that scenario could be more useful a longer trigger or two fingers trigger

[@Larken42]

Seems like the windage may be coming from the meat of your hand expanding as you flex your thumb. Climbers use this effect to ascend cracks in rock faces.

[@why3011]

Damn, is this why my red Ryder shoots to the right?

[@cheyannei5983]

Bingo! Next lower they try should be a pinky trigger. A for effort, though!

[@SandyAndy90245]

@@cheyannei5983 a Pinky trigger would have to be so light to actuate that it would almost be unsafe.

[@comradesoupbeans4437]

@@SandyAndy90245 you actually get most of your grip strength from your pinky. though there would be other safety concerns like how you hold the rifle comfortably and normally when your pinky is the trigger. that and the fact flexing your pinky flexes other muscles in your hand would probably make it bad for accuracy

[@Larken42]

Just have a remote switch and a solenoid, say a grip safety and a microswitch for the support hand on the stock

[@matthayward7889]

Fair play to iron horse for getting Ian to test the thumb trigger (and to be fair, Ian has tens of thousands of rounds through normal triggers vs 18 thumb) but I’m still not sure it has much use outside of people missing an index finger

[@Rixoli]

Well like a few have mentioned, arthritic hands may make it easier to manipulate a weapon with the thumb as well.

[@matthayward7889]

@@Rixoli true! And it’s good they have the option.

[@jonathanlunger2775]

Just looking at it I think this prevents you from getting a pistol like grip, possibly making this an awesome option for California compliance? Not sure just a thought

[@matthayward7889]

@@jonathanlunger2775 that’s a pretty clever idea!

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

Did he say he shot the THUMB trigger 18 times or was the first 8 the conventional trigger to zero in the scope? Sounded to me like the latter.

[@anthonyjackson280]

I am not a shooter, though this is one of my favourite channels. That said I do use a lot or power tools, many with 'pistol grips'. My initial reaction seeing this is ergonomic - would you not lose a great deal of grip control because the thumb is not wrapping around fully to stabilize the 'tool'? On the few tools I have used that require operating a top button with the thumb that is what I have found. That is the concept of the 'power grip'.

[@martinleehb]

While I have no experience with real firearms (and extensive use of power tools either), I do have a joystick that require quite some strength to move. The stick have trigger button for index finger, as well as some thumb buttons above your grip. I have experience similar ergonomic issue, and find that a wrap-around thumb do help with control You normally grip with thumb wrapped around the stick, and you can easily move it around without issue. But if you need to use the top buttons, your thumb no longer wraps around. It became much harder to move the stick to the right, since you can't use the thumb to push on the side. In some games, I actually need to reassign some functions to different buttons in order to play well. One particular example is a tank simulator. Modern tank's fire control requires you to track the target for a short time, use the laser range finder, and then fire. By default, the fire and rangefinder are assigned to trigger and a thumb button, meaning I basically cannot grip with my thumb at all times. I do not have enough precision to track a right-moving target and miss quite a lot. (p.s.: A real tank's gunner control is a two-hand grip, instead of a one-hand stick. You yaw left-and-right to control the turret, and tilt up-and-down to control the barrel elevation. In this configuration you could free up your thumb without issue.)

[@jaredwright1655]

In context of the firearm, you probobly dont want to kick a door down with it. The thumb being on the backstrap and the grip veing so low ita just not going to be a "fast" rifle

[@bryceforsyth8521]

I believe this is a valid criticism; firearms are tools just like any other, though their intended use may differ.

[@tmpopescu]

Actually, shooting doesn't require a thumb grip, since sending the round down the range doesn't involve handling lasting power rotation with that grip. For a power tool, it would definitely be a disadvantage.

[@Rehteal]

Definite respect for going after a very niche part of the market, though I can imagine it being very popular with people who have disabilities or generally poor motor control in their hands. I could see it doing reasonably well financially, or at least well enough to justify the effort.

[@outforlunch1258]

Ok

[@PhantomSavage]

Well, they've got Ian to do a video on them, all they need now to be a commercial success is get their firearm put into a COD game. Ironically the very idea of a thumb operated rifle is so niche I bet gamers would suddenly want it on their real rifles.

[@StarWarsFanatic14]

Can confirm. Source: am gamer

[@Thebensupremacy]

What an underwhelming concept for a shooter unlock. "Congrats on reaching level 64, you have unlocked thumb trigger AR15 that you can't even tell is being thumb triggered because the trigger animation is never animated in games."

[@Exerillo]

I didn't know a MLB fan was a gun nut himself. Meet me someday.

[@royrogers3624]

As a gamer just no

[@royrogers3624]

@@Thebensupremacy it is actually in many cases

[@shooteveryday1841]

“Thumb triggers come and go and I’m not sure youll appreciate my review” pretty savage off the bat

[@Marci124]

On the other hand, I can't help but think of the scores of people that would even go as far as pretend to be enthusiastic just to seal the deal.

[@gregoryfolsom7882]

I think the thing people are missing is that this puts the web of the hand beneath the line that makes it a California compliant "featureless rifle"

[@richardcontinijr9661]

Wouldn't it still not be CA compliant? The trigger was moved to a higher position than a regular AR so the web of the hand is still below the trigger. At least that's what the CA DOJ will say and in CA that's all they need when it comes to gun laws. None of the courts or politicians will push back against the CA DOJ on this issue.

[@HarveyDangerLurker]

So sad and true

[@bennyb.1742]

My first thought was that this is so weird California defeat device but I don't really know. I'm not American but I really enjoy funny loop hole things regardless of topic.

[@geodkyt]

Ah, but you wouldn't even notice a grip-fin, properly positioned, as your thumb doesn't need to wrap around the grip anyway.

[@WarWolfOne6969]

@@geodkyt I wonder if the grip fin would make this even more stable ? You can rest the fat of your hand on it

[@technewb8241]

I can definitely see a use case for this in precision and cold weather. Growing up on video games gave me better thumb dexterity, and Iron Horse isn't wrong about your index getting stiffer in the cold than your thumb

[@paulkerr7320]

Laymans perspective: You shot the same rough sized group with a completely new trigger system when compared to a trigger you are intimately familliar with (WWSD). One has to consider if you practiced with the thumb trigger for a couple of hundred rounds to get used to it would you actually shoot a tighter group? I think it is worth consoideration of their claims at this point

[@Aqueox]

I love new tech.

[@juliancantarelli]

That fact that you can just by the lower is a really good selling point. I also can see this concept apply with an electronic trigger, like an old Atari joystick.

[@MobiuSphere]

I really want to see Henry over at nine-hole take this to the extended range. I think it would be very interesting to see what an expert Marksman like him thinks of it.

[@Jesses001]

I was thinking the same. Ian is a good shooter, but Henry can really squeeze out every bit of accuracy from a system. Their testing methodology also seems to help really get nitty gritty when it comes to such things.

[@ScottKenny1978]

Second this!

[@slabgizor1176]

@@iatsd you could argue that it doesn’t take 25 years of practice to have equivalent skills with it though. What percentage of that 25 years is experience in areas other than trigger control? That experience can carry over to a thumb trigger without any problem.

[@adlerarmory8382]

Henry is dedicated, he would have his finger surgically removed for proper weapon testing then have it sewn back on for the Hot Wash/AAR.

[@jimscott5673]

I'd be interested in a comparison again after a few hundred rounds. Learning a traditional trigger takes time and experience, and I would imagine this would take some experience to get the most out of it too.

[@mrjockt]

Another point is that you got very similar sized groups when using a conventional trigger rifle, which you have plenty of experience with, and an unconventional trigger rifle which you have virtually no experience with, it might be interesting to see the difference in grouping when someone who has similar experience with both types tries it.

[@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive]

Maybe introduce it to a new shooter? One who has never fired a gun?

[@mrjockt]

@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive Nice idea and worth a try.

[@jeffthebaptist3602]

This is exactly it. The difference between the two trigger systems is probably less about mechanisms and more about shooter skill. A lot of the variation in that group is shooter skill. Since Ian has far more time on conventional triggers, you would expect him to shoot the conventional trigger better. He's put the time in to build muscle memory and avoid pulling shots left or right for instance. He would really need to go through an extended training cycle with the thumb trigger rifle in order to get a true apples to apples test. I doubt he's willing to do that and I don't blame him. Since the groups were comparable, I'm not quick to dismiss the thumb trigger out of hand.

[@LUR1FAX]

So basically you'd get a novice shooter to shoot some groups with both a thumb trigger rifle and a standard rifle. That's the only type of shooter I think would have similar experience with both types of triggers, in that the shooter here has zero or very little experience.

[@its_clean]

@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive Definitely this. Good trigger control with a traditional trigger is an acquired skill that can be challenging to learn for many. No telling whether the thumb trigger would be easier, but would be interesting to see whether it could be more intuitive or have a quicker learning curve.

[@fatjeezussouthtexasoutdoor5244]

I have arthritis since my early 20's and always struggled when shooting high volumes of ammo, for instance during brm in Army BT. Over the years it has gotten worse, and trigger jobs are expensive.....I can definitely see the benefits of this thing.

[@AmstradExin]

I just wanted to write this. I don't have but I always feel a little iffy shooting with my joint close to the trigger. Having something hard pressing against it feels just unnatural to me. A Thumb's last bit is 50% longer than of an index finger, so maybe there's the reason why we don't play videogames with Joysticks anymore but with thumb-operated game pads.

[@alexandertheok9610]

this rifle gives "put a thumb in it" a whole new meaning!

[@waynemyers2469]

And you can't hitchhike with it either.

[@DersNoNem]

Reminds me of Kentucky Ballistic incident haha

[@theknifeman7097]

Scott needs this rifle.

[@strongback6550]

I think thumb trigger would be interesting prospect to explore further to see where you can develop the ergonomics. If nothing else, they seem to be perfectly functional when done right. Would be kind of funky to see a modern rifle with a Tanegashima musket style musket grip that's got a really light thumb trigger.

[@Verde_Martinez]

The group with the normal trigger is consistently low after that first one; whereas the normal trigger group is more of a steep climb. I would say that the biggest issue with the grouping is the stock on the thumb trigger and not the thumb trigger itself. Your shoulder alignment is visibly different with the stock on your normal trigger. Great vid & keep up the good work my fellow desert-dweller.

[@noremorsewoodworking2258]

I've served in some very cold winters and can see the merit of a thumb trigger in those circumstances where the index finger does indeed get very cold and stiff. But having to put a gloved thumb inside that small "cavity" is not going to be easy either, so if I were to design a thumb trigger for arctic (military) service, I'd place the trigger on the side of the handgrip, perhaps operated by a more forward than downward motion. I do however doubt that militaries will invest in special lowers (and the associated training to use them) unless perhaps in very small (special forces) numbers - all the regular grunts will just be told to wear mittens and open the trigger guard on their C7's or C8's, enabling them to press the trigger with the realitively warm index finger inside a nice, thick mitten. For civilians with various missing/disabled fingers, the option of a thumb-trigger is an entirely different matter.

[@onpsxmember]

I take taking off a 'hood' of just the thumb while 4 fingers are left in a big mitten when it's really freaking cold. Placing the trigger to the side brings a lot of issues. You still have to cover it, so you need a bubble or cage around it that's pushing against the kit while slung in front, excentric force, not ambidextrous, in the way of other controls. But I agree on the forward movement. Pushing against a button when the thumb is almost straight causes far less movement below. I guess that would be a pain to make it and the length of a thumb differs quite a bit. But with printing grips, it could be very ergonomic to the individual.

[@M60E3MG]

I’ve shot while wearing heavy winter gloves and found trigger manipulation to be the least of my problems (more so with pistols). With decent training, one should be pressing back on the trigger until the gun fires then releasing to the reset point. I don’t want to stir up a hornets nest, but I think trigger “feel” is overrated.

[@M60E3MG]

@@fuckingpippaman I like your idea. Perhaps a grip safety on the back, like a 1911. Or on the front , akin to the HK P7.

[@slavsupreme5129]

Sounds like you just (almost) exactly describes the winter trigger found on the Swiss PE-57 😄

[@ScottKenny1978]

I'm thinking just a wider trigger guard for the thumb. Bow out the sides like a chunk of pipe, instead of straight down.

[@D0P1C3]

its like scissors for left handed people 90% of population dont need them but its good that there is that choice for people who do want/need them

[@ironwolfF1]

As a lefty, having a properly operating scissor is a blessing. 😉

[@ngkngk875]

@@ironwolfF1 Im so used to just using my right now I would have to retrain my left to do stuff like that.

[@widgren87]

I can't help but think that a Thumb-trigger would be more comfortable on a regular rifle grip as opposed to the pistol here... Also that bit about thumbs in cold weather is true at least for me, my index is always the first to freeze.

[@dloobo2381]

for people with raynaud syndrome.

[@aritakalo8011]

@Lassi Kinnunen 81 well that would be design issue. Just widen the protective wings. However it does have the base benefit, that one can shoot with full mittens. Since thumb is left to it's own still on mittens. Where as one would have to use somekind of rotate away trigger guard or use less warm gloves, take off the outer mittens. I could see ot usable for example for polar bear defence rifles for arctic expeditions. Specially if it is to be equipping someone not otherwise often using firearms. Thus not having the "you are supposed to pull with index finger" muscle memory. Then again semi auto is jot usually thing for those, but well marry it with a manual bolt upper. "Polar bear comes danger close, push the button with your thumb"

[@SnivyTries]

Actually, yeah, a thumb trigger with a rifle stock (or CA legal stock, lol) would be far more comfortable.

[@Moejoedajoejoe]

I appreciate that they stand behind their product like that. They clearly believe in it. Good stuff as always.

[@Theiron2142]

I think that you have to take into account that pretty much every weapon that Ian has bought and has experience training with probably had a traditional trigger system, without alot of practice with the thumb trigger he was able to produce results that were almost the same as with the regular trigger. I think his results would be alot better with more practice with the thumb trigger system.

[@MrMoustaffa]

Cool idea, very handy for disabled shooters. I could see it giving people who wouldnt otherwise be able to shoot the ability to go to the range again. I dont see it taking target shooting by storm but I could see hunting rifles adopt it some if its cheaper to do. It seems a lot safer when going through brush or climbing up a tree stand and it takes a lot more concious effort to use than a conventional trigger. May make it a bit less prone to ND's by inexperienced or careless shooters.

[@washingtoncommandcenter5541]

I would love to try this out, to me Iron horse's "Hook" about the movement makes total sense, I feel like if you put a complete novice behind each there may be some benefit to the thumb trigger. I think It would also come down to practice for the average firearm owner just getting more comfortable with something new. I think the fact that you had such similar results having put a total of 18 rounds through it as you did with a higher-end normal trigger that you have a lifetime more experience with kind of points to its merit. Learning and getting as comfortable with the Thumb Trigger as you are the trigger you handpicked for the WWSD might lead to even better results.

[@sheldoniusRex]

Might be good for people with hand injuries. Edit: aaaaannnd Ian brings it up. As to the cold weather thing, thumb trigger works with mittens. Mittens are better than gloves at keeping all of your fingies un-frostbitten. Overall I think the market is big enough for there to exist products like this, and I'm glad the boys over at Iron Horse insisted on Ian reviewing it.

[@mjo4981]

Ian, congratulations on getting the industry-wide video noise issue under control. At last we can watch shooting videos without everybody in the house jumping at each shot!

[@jonnyares1]

I have one of these and found that I can shoot it extremely fast. I suspect that’s due to the fact that the gun recoils in the direction of the trigger press so you can get a bump fire effect only with a lot more control because the gun is fully stabilized between the shoulder and support hand. Now that I’ve had about a year of practice I’ve switched it to my go-to home defense AR.

[@Pcm979]

This makes me want to see a history of the trigger, and why the trigger we know became overall more popular.

[@oliverlane9716]

Im guessing it was because the matchlock just had a lever attached to the match that would pivot in the stock which you would pull down and back under the stock to fire. And the when flintlocks were created they copied the user procedure out of habit. I cannot see any other way of cheaply producing a matchlock and everything else has been based upon that ever since.

[@rultkiraly43]

Isn't it the continuation of the crossbow trigger? Early firearms after the "put a smoking bit to the hole in the end of the firearm" used the crossbow trigger (the big pull with 4 fingers kind) later, as the pull became lighter it didn't need the horizontal part anymore as one finger was enough. I know there were some thumb operated crossbows as well, but maybe the mechanism was harder to manufacture/implement and later it worked well enough to not think about it. Would need to look at firearms whiteout handgrip but with thumb trigger, and try them to know if they are more comfortable or not.

[@jackmcslay]

The first triggers were from crossbows, which required a lot of force to release so they were designed to be pulled by all 4 fingers like a caulk gun. Later the early firearms just evolved from that and eventually became the modern trigger. In addition, the earliest firearms after hand cannons (which had no firing mechanism, and they just shoved a lit rope into a hole) were hammer fired, and it can be difficult to design a firearm that has you cocking the hammer and firing with the same finger from a usability standpoint as it ends up with two controls at the same general region.

[@dbmail545]

I suspect that matchlocks largely set the pattern for small arms to come. The simplest matchlocks use a fuse holder that you pull back to put the fuse to the touchhole. I suspect that wheellocks used a backwards pulling trigger for continuity which undoubtedly led to the flintlock trigger. If history had been a bit different, thumb triggers might be the norm and index finger triggers the oddity.

[@dbmail545]

@@rultkiraly43 I admit that I hadn't thought about crossbow triggers simply because matchlocks do not use them. The similarities between a crossbow trigger and a wheellock or flintlock trigger are unmistakable.

[@BBossman1]

That thing is CLEARLY made to get around California's "assault weapon" ban. If I recall one of the features that make a rifle with a detachable magazine a banned weapon is a pistol grip that places the trigger below the web of the hand. That easily places the trigger above the web of the hand when holding the pistol grip. Excellent idea marketing it for "disabled" persons or accuracy enhancing rather than a CA end around...

[@rhvette]

Unfortunately it’s exactly the opposite. CA’s definition of a pistol grip is one that places the trigger ABOVE the web of the hand. Hence why there are companies making lowers with blocking bars that obscure part of the trigger so that the top of the trigger is not above the web of the hand. That said, another part of the definition of a pistol grip is a grip which can be fully encircled by the hand, hence the finned grips sold in CA, and this design could probably incorporate a protrusion on the lower third or so of the grip that would “prevent full encirclement” without actually impacting ability to control the rifle and make it not a pistol grip under CA’s definition.

[@BBossman1]

@@rhvette Color me wrong, I misunderstood all their gobbldygook...

[@ScottKenny1978]

@@BBossman1 that's deliberate on their part.

[@MrKronikDeception]

As a proof of concept, that's actually pretty good. If the fit and finish of the TCG was on par with some of the nicer after market triggers and someone spent the time to protype more ergonomic grips, this would definitely have a niche.

[@chris.3711]

My father lost part of his trigger finger to a saw many years ago. I wonder what he would think of such an interesting design. I like it because it's out of the norm.

[@joecarosella7418]

I appreciate this for cold weather ease of use. My index finger gets cold and locks up quite easily, so a thumb trigger may actually be a great idea for me for a hunting rifle. Always going to prefer finger for target shooting though, no way is a thumb trigger going to be as satisfying to pull as a finger trigger

[@diosol]

Never heard of thumb triggers. This was interesting.

[@kamikazekalamari]

I thought so too, but if you think about it then the maxim gun and most variations also had one.

[@BadBomb555]

Browning M2, mounted miniguns... generally heavy machine guns use thumb triggers.

[@kallejodelbauer2955]

@@kamikazekalamari He uses it beause it can been used for right and lefthanders. The Thumb is more Powerfull then a indexfinger,so you can hold the Gun better.If you have a Maxim you dont hold the complete Gun and you use both hands or Thumbs.Sometimes when i sprayed my Rims with Cleaner from a Spraybottle, my Indexfinger had a Pain like i am using an MG3 back in my Armytimes,but there i shot belts of 250 Shells.Armyweapons had always a hard Trigger because no shot should be accidentally released.

[@Govanmauler]

Theres a FW video from a few years back on an old school thumb trigger target rifle. Cant remember the name tho

[@Govanmauler]

Found out. Its titled - Winchester thumb trigger rifle

[@rose_city-86o51]

Oh this one was worth watching through to the end. I never knew there were thumb triggered weapons, nor have I ever thought about it. This was unique and I would love to try one out myself some day.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

You've never seen a Machine gun before?

[@michaelholopainen2822]

As a Finn I know cold weather and shooting. I love the concept and was interested of buying one of those ...until @3:40 when I saw the trigger. I assumed that it was a vertical button on surface of the pistol grip, but instead it is finger hole. How the f**k are you supposed to fit your thumb into that narrow hole when wearing thick mittens or gloves ???? I think this "cold weather" gun designer has never even seen snow. Not to mention the the lumps of packed snow hanging from you mittens/gloves. Aaaaand even if you managed to squeeze your thumb into that hole then pretty soon the hole would be packed full of frozen and packed snow.

[@jimbob3291]

Kinda makes it obsolete when you look at triggers in the snow. You can use two or more fingers on a specialist trigger with extended guard and be able to operate in arctic temps with relative accuracy and avoid the snow issues. Think they should open the walls a bit, maybe have draining ports or make cleaning it easier.

[@dragoonpreston3]

As someone who can legit drive to their address in less than an hour. I have No Idea what they were smoking when they chose to make it like that. But can confirm we do get snow here.

[@CyberChrist]

I suppose the current design had the advantage of being ambidextrous, and therefore, simpler, not to mention a trigger guard for a trigger on the side of the pistol grip might be tricky to design.

[@dallaswood4117]

We had the Winter Olympics here in Utah where this gun is built so yeah there’s snow lol. How are you supposed to get huge mittens or gloves into a normal trigger guard?

[@jimbob3291]

@@dallaswood4117 you don't, but unless your gloves are real thin, they're not fitting into that tiny little slot.

[@matrix3509]

This thumb trigger seems far more inherently safe than any traditional style trigger.

[@nucleargrizzly1776]

To me it seems that the thumb trigger would be harder to "keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to fire". Straight up and the buffer tube/stock gets in the way. To the side and a grip shift may be necessary. BTW I have *YUGE* hands with long monkey fingers.

[@TheFanatical1]

@@nucleargrizzly1776 I think the response to that would be "do not assume a firing grip until ready to fire"

[@miloradowicz]

@@TheFanatical1 I think it will be hard switching between a normal grip with the thumb encircling the handle, and a ready-to-shoot grip, since it requires bending and shifting your hand posintion, especially for those with stiff and long thumbs. Cutting out a slit in one side of the trigger box could be helpful, but it would also somewhat reduce safety. It also won't be ambidextrous anymore.

[@dbmail545]

"Is gun! Cannot be made safe!"

[@numbzinger350]

The thumb has to be intentionally flexed 90 degrees to activate the trigger. Look at where your thumb points while relaxed. That's a lot of movement before anything happens. On top of that it takes a fair amount of pressure to trip. The trigger has to be intentionally pressed. It's nothing like having a finger curled inside a trigger guard as it's an entirely different motor skill and can't really even be compared. It's hard to understand until you've actually tried it. It's like trying to explain recoil to someone who's never held a handgun.

[@thedirector1378]

Adding a thumb trigger to an AR is an intresting concept

[@pineapplesalad6494]

Thumb triggers were of course very popular in early machineguns. I could see the potential benefit in cold weather, but that particular trigger guard setup looks way too tight for winter gloves.

[@JnixMarshel]

Being from Texas, I didn't even think about that.

[@thepinkplushie]

Yeah theres much better solutions for gloves and mittens. Russia, Finland and Canada all have produced reliable and well tested options for their respective firearms (which happen to fit the most common rifle patterns, AR-15s, AKs, and the weird combinations inbetween)

[@shawnr771]

@@JnixMarshel I am from Texas and it was the first thing I thought of. A trip to the range in Yakina Firing Center in January wearing heavy gloves. It was difficult to shoot well. I had to open the trigger guard on the M16A1.

[@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive]

Still popular for HMGs and ordnance.

[@numbzinger350]

I have an Iron Horse lower. A grip with an expanded thumb guard would be simple to design and manufacture and there's nothing to either side of the trigger preventing the modified design. Since Iron Horse will read all these comments I'd watch for one to be offered down the road.

[@IncredibleMD]

One way that it seems to me they could improve this is by reshaping the former trigger area to allow you to choke up on the grip more. As it is, there's a lot of space between Ian's fingers and the underside of the receiver. Putting a simple spacer block of polymer to limit choking up to the point where your thumb is in the perfect position for the trigger would probably help the ergonomics a lot.

[@hrodga]

One thing I noticed that might account for the difference; he seemed to break his sight picture more often on the first group of shots, whether he was looking at the camera for commentary or dodging brass. Then again, there was a cut or two in the filming of the second group, so who knows.

[@roosterj2599]

This same setup is featured on most Gi Joe action figure guns. 100s of Gi Joe's and their armorers can't be wrong. Even COBRA got on board with this concept. Yooooo Joe!!!!

[@JJadx]

i see a lot of scepticism. but i really like it, especially the safety. ergonomics could be improved. it also unlocks more space to add new features.

[@RockSolitude]

I think more extensive field testing is needed to ascertain the potential benefits or drawbacks of a thumb trigger. It could be more comfortable to shoot for long periods or it might not.

[@heliosdelsol]

I personally don't like how you have to hold the grip so low. It seem like the shooter would have less control, especially if it's full auto or even just rapid fire semi-auto. I could definitely be wrong about that though. 🤷‍♂️

[@jackmcslay]

Probably, your thumb is much stronger than your index finger, making it much more suitable for extended operation

[@brettalexander220]

Watching Ian shoot ar dmr is so relaxing for some reason! Its such a smooth shooting reletively quiet gun.

[@davidedward10]

Reminds me of the phaser sidearms from Star Trek TNG through Voyager. Those had thumb triggers as well.

[@lardman5241]

My math teacher cut his index fingers off to avoid the Vietnam draft can’t doge now

[@alun7006]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for giving it a practical demonstration, Ian. I think that Iron Horse should really be pushing this as an option for people with disabilities - there's potentially a significant untapped market there, and it could really play an important part in opening up shooting sports for a lot of people that otherwise might feel excluded. Budi - recurring guest on Bloke on the Range - is a great ambassador, and it would be great to get some more people with disabilities some visibility. Maybe you (or Karl, perhaps - it might be a better fit for InRange) could try and find someone willing to try it out?

[@davewolf8869]

Man. I had to do so much tuning to find this channel. But it's finally clear now

[@AshFurAshFur]

I actually really like this style of trigger, and can definitely see it being really useful in a multitude of scenarios

[@olafervin]

I can speak from experience. I once lost sensation in my trigger finger while elk hunting at 42ﾟ below 0. I was unable to feel the trigger on my Winchester model 70. After 2 premature shots I had to aim at the animal and then put my finger into the trigger guard to fire. I think the thumb figure would have been better in that instance.

[@olafervin]

@Lassi Kinnunen 81 I was wearing light gloves, but to no avail....

[@_ArsNova]

Whether it's ultimately good or bad, I have a huge amount of respect for people willing to try weird, relatively "new" ideas, like a modern thumb-trigger AR-15.

[@alliwantisfinancialstabili7414]

I remember seeing these rifles on the walls of my local gun store here in Utah about a year or two ago and I was absolutely baffled and confused.

[@俞恩理]

Combine a thumb trigger with the hammer of a single action pistol/revolver and you get a new idea of what they call 'quick draw'.

[@vchalmel]

A.K.A. "The Baldwin"

[@jeffsimon2144]

My grandfather had a .22 LR rifle with a thumb trigger. It was pretty old and I don't remember the manufacturer, but I remember it was a LOT easier to shoot accurately than any other rifle I had used to that point. Sadly it disappeared after he died, I was hoping to get that one from the estate sale.

[@sumone1930]

I bet he had this gun kzbin.info/www/bejne/foq8e36MZ9irm9U

[@Brook_tno]

It would be perfect for ground keeper Willie. He has a crippling arthritis in his index fingers. He got it from space invaders in 1977

[@Scott-qq9jd]

Oh yeah, that was a great video game.

[@Brook_tno]

@@Scott-qq9jd video game?

[@JakeyBabesxXx]

I think the cold weather point is valid. If your in extreme cold weather youll be wearing thick gloves or mitts and you cant fit a finger in past a trigger guard so shooting mitts have 1 less finger. That meens 1 cold finger. This looks like you could fit a mitts thumb in easy.

[@gk.spinoza]

I like the Winchester thumb trigger rifle's elegant design! I recall that It was made and sold around WW1, but I should re-watch the forgotten weapons episode covering one of those rifles to refresh myself on the details

[@VoidySan]

This this is actually so cool. I would love to try one of these out

[@collinis1]

The one that I tried has a gritty and heavy trigger pull. Similar to a misspec trigger

[@dbmail545]

My expectation would be that it has a fairly stiff letoff since no shooters would be familiar with it.

[@donjones4719]

Could be "normal" variation on the production line. Or Iron Horse made damn sure everything on this rifle was in optimum condition. Very likely, but not guaranteed. I've seen Ian shoot a couple of guns sent to him by the manufacturer that had stupid problems that could have been checked out before sending. Made a Comment on this and Ian responded, saying yes, it was true, that happens, illogical as it may seem. Idk how competent Iron Horse is at making most of their trigger mechanisms good ones, but at least they're competent enough to send a good one to Ian.

[@Music-lx1tf]

I've been into firearms for a very long time. Never heard of a thumb trigger. Thanks for the info. VERY informative.

[@Glurgi]

It looks like with a thumb trigger you dipp instead of go side to side. Most shooters are used to compensate for side movement, so I think with some training a thumb trigger will start to be useful. After all, that's a pretty good group with all of 18 rounds worth of practice.

[@TheWhiteDragon3]

There's another metric that's not been discussed: it's _cool_ (or at least I think it is). Also, there's a possibility that if an individual with less-than-pure intentions managed to get their hands on your firearm, they might not know what a thumb trigger is and be unable to use it, at least for a split-second which is crucial in a gritty self-defense situation.

[@wolfenstien13]

Ian is looking really sharp holding those targets.

[@bjorntrollgesicht1144]

With a thumb trigger you can grab your gun much tighter, as you are using four of your fingers- you're basically gripping with a clenched fist, your hand is anatomically made to do that. Furthermore, when you extend your index finger, the structure of your hand is broken- try clenching your fist with only three fingers and you'll see what I mean. Also your thumb naturally points forward. On a rifle it won't work, but on a defensive, close quarter handgun it could be very beneficial- quick draw, quick target acquisition (just point your fist, it could even work without sights), hard to wrench away and good for striking, etc. It could be a very useful law enforcement tool, either in a pistol or taser form.

[@NiMi93]

I love this lower. With median nerve damage (unable to pull a 5lb trigger with my RH index finger), it allows me to operate a carbine with both shoulders. My two concerns with this product are: 1) the poorly designed grip; your hand naturally wants to choke high on it but this results in poor/inconsistent thumb placement every time your present the weapon. ie what's needed is a Houge-esque indentation to place the grip every time, and 2) the safety switch is a slide design (not everyone has a digit or enough dexterity to operate it with such fine motor movement), ie there's a reason our home lights + fighter pilot switches are designed to be actuated with the knuckle and not the tip of their finger. Even the AR safety switch uses a knuckle swipe to actuate.

[@TreacherousFennec]

honestly i can see this getting sales in california since i am sure this can be considered a Featureless Rifle, so to speak.

[@drdoom-skull2244]

What is a featureless rifle?

[@ScottKenny1978]

@@drdoom-skull2244 the Democratic People's Republic of Kalifornia has a whole list of features that make a rifle an evil assault weapon. If it doesn't have enough of those features, it's not an assault weapon and is legal for sale. It's why you see those horrible fin grips and such.

[@ScottKenny1978]

I'm not sure this would count as a featureless rifle. But it'd be worth a try, especially since Iron Horse could make a good case for it being ADA protected.

[@TreacherousFennec]

@@ScottKenny1978 that's funny af cuz those fin grips dont prevent you from doing anything you could with a regular pistol grip. It almost feels like laws are stupid enough to not to prevent people from buying military grade weapons while keeping the anti gun people silent since most dont know jack shit about weapons

[@ScottKenny1978]

@@TreacherousFennec except wrap your thumb around the grip. Yes, the laws are *beyond* stupid, but they're also up for Supreme Court review right now. 😈 At the _very_ least, the SCOTUS is going to say, "you need to read the text of the Amendment, as informed by history and tradition; and if that gives you an answer, that is as far as you go."

[@localbapeboy7881]

As soon as I saw you outside I thought this has to be tucson.. clicked on the description and sure enough

[@Misplaced_Acres]

Two observations: 1) Great mechanism to allow for spade triggers (think Browning M2) on M249 SAW or like machine guns. 2) For those ultra-neurotic about objects entering trigger reach, a blocking tab like those in SABRE tear gas will sway away fears.

[@daktari]

So, basically, the thumb trigger system is the Dvorak keyboard of the gun world. Maybe giving an edge if you only ever trained on it, kinda pointless if you have to switch all of the training and muscle memory from using the classic setup.

[@Skyfox94]

Imagine having a completely different trigger style for every type of gun (like the Dvorak layout is different for each language)

[@robertkennion9020]

More Accessability options for shooters with physical impairments is great

[@itreehorsenumber3]

Thank you for giving us your transparent opinion on the product.

[@kolestutler580]

If it weren't for the fact that hot brass kept hitting him in the face it would be easily interchangeable from a left to right handed person as well. The gun still functions of course, but it is rather interesting to think of potential design improvements.

[@davewebster5120]

Super cool concept and i appreciate them taking the risk on a deviation from the norm and bringing something different to market. I think my shooting style would benefit from the thumb movement. I'll have to check out one of their lowers.

[@dangerrangerlstc]

Interesting concept. The muscle that moves your thumb is in the palm of the hand, where the muscle that moves your index finger is actually in the forearm. I would think a thumb trigger would have a greater impact on moving the gun since the muscle that moves it is against the grip. Simple training can help get rid of any windage effects from not pulling the trigger straight back.

[@Rlogsdon100]

"Or for someone that wants to be a little bit different" That's me and I'm sold lol. This is cool

[@danirizary6926]

I saw a thumb trigger .30 carbine at a gun show back in the 1980s. IIRC it was a prototype, or low production for the military, it was one of the major manufacturers, but I can't recall which.

[@357Maxim]

I read a study saying that younger generations are doing and more things with their thumbs (a hypothesis was that was due to phone and tablets etc). This rifle might just be ahead of its time :)

[@livingcorpse5664]

And video games.

[@357Maxim]

@@livingcorpse5664 Amen XD

[@Mini1124]

I can’t say I like it, especially living in a very cold area where where thick gloves are necessary when out shooting in the Winter, this makes it impossible to use except with thin gloves or none. I don’t understand anyone saying how this is beneficial to cold environments, that “trigger well” is miniscule and couldn’t fit a padded thumb in there. It’s a neat gimmick.

[@KendrasEdge757]

I think this is great for my fellow disabled Vets who are missing fingers or parts of them, although #nubgunner does just fine without them lol and a lot better than most without any physical issues!

[@DSMattitude]

i could see this being good in cold climates. When it gets really cold gloves dont keep your hands warm, but mittens do. You could shoot this with mittens on.

[@BaseDeltaZero1972]

Classic pulp SF writer Edgar Rice Burroughs always had his "futuristic" pistols and rifles operated by "thumb-studs". Amazing to see it in real life.

[@tylerfrisk4320]

I could see this being useful I cold weather with mittens on. Then again I am Canadian so I may be biased on that one. 😅

[@Gagis]

My first thought was the same! ... in Finland. Maybe sharing some of that bias.

[@ScottKenny1978]

I live south of you guys, and it's also something that came to my mind. But most of the hunting around here is at high elevation (over 2000m, sometimes up to 3000m), so it's *cold* in November!

[@jonasga]

About thumbs being a bit more responsive in cold conditions than the other fingers, from experience this is very true. It also seems intuitive as well if you think about the mass of the muscles and tendons connected to your thumb versus your other fingers. Thumbs are just more beefy and have more infrastructure, that muscle in your palm right under the thumb is the most massive object in your hand.

[@It-b-Blair]

I feel a thumb trigger could be great on a shotgun/traditionally stocked rifle. With it being boxed in on the pistol grip, you’re also more limited in glove selection for cold weather climates like it claims to benefit in, let alone the ergonomic adjustment.