The Tiktokification of Goth and Punk

[@krysiss]

I'm pretty sure I f**ked up the Thatcher bit because UK politics are funky but this video is meant to be a quick history lesson for anyone who found goth and punk from TikTok 👍 I just uploaded a video on The Cure's love songs for anyone who wants to check it out. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5uZmJ-QlrVgpacsi=h3OnJV7Q0tmAC5Gv Edit: I had to cut a part of the video at 6:56 bcz it got copyrighted. Here is the full Sex Pistols interview that I'm referencing: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqWrgZuMna9qiNUsi=Hk-_TKjXTGiIWv87

[@behelit1997]

Even iron maiden hates Thatcher

[@SabracadabrO]

Bruh,where did ya get these takes??,it was alot simpler,it was JUST A FAD,that lasted longer than most..

[@SabracadabrO]

Man!!,”cash from Chaos”Mclaren was THE primo capitalist,even if his wife Westwood was hardcore Marxist,There was no definitive politics till much later..,Sex Pistols was ALL about the ca$h buddy..

[@teethgrinder83]

Yeah you did kinda fuck up Thatcher-take it from a Scot who was born in 83 and so has had to deal with the shit she kicked off since I was born. An amazing Scottish post-rock band called Mogwai wrote a song called "George square Thatcher death party" (George square is a large area in Glasgow) and it was prophetic because there was indeed a huge party there once she died lol

[@teethgrinder83]

​@@SabracadabrOI dunno about it being a fad-punk has had a HUGE influence on amazing bands even if punk itself was pretty short lived. Minutemen was highly influenced by punk (and also kinda were punk-as well as hardcore/post punk/intersesting beats and manage to fit utterly amazing musicianship into 1.30min songs). They helped influence Skint when recording Spiderland, a seminal Maths rock album and so on and so on. So while punk was a short lived fad it definitely wasn't irrelevant that's for sure and so definitely worth talking about. Now if you meant this whole tiktok thing is a fad then I apologise for my rant and I'll just agree because I honestly don't know and don't care much because I'm 41yrs old and never use the app lol

[@frankheffleyofficial8806]

the issue with short form as a whole is it removes context and value from everything. people complain about their favourite music becoming big on tiktok because it brings hundreds of thousands of ignorant people who don’t appreciate the music at all, and are purely there for the aesthetic. it just dilutes art

[@Concertjunkie0066]

Perfect summary

[@lilsussi]

exactly

[@barrypops7499]

or they don't even appreciate it, it's just used to fetishize and mock.

[@markcummins4037]

"omg let people enjoy things!!!11"

[@EyeDaWitchfinder]

Yeah I used to not understand gatekeeping until I learned about the type of people the gate actually keeps.

[@Raymundo_2112]

The fetishization of alternative women is one of the most annoying and disgusting "Jokes" And i'm glad to hear someone talk about it

[@Ball_hog-m2e]

Did not expect to see Raymundo in this comment section lol.

[@Phobe6656]

why after 2 months you are still unoticed, lol

[@k-leb4671]

I'm not as bothered by it, but yeah it is weird and frustrating how obsessive a lot of people (primarily internet-goers) have been over goth girls since the early(ish) days of the internet. I guess it started with a bunch of kids cartoons and movies in the 90s and 00s that had "goth" characters with stereotypical, dolled-up designs that a lot of boys got crushes over.

[@morbidhime]

If someone's fetish is a whole group of people then I think that's messed up..

[@roberth4395]

@@k-leb4671 as a grown up man all I can say is "Oh fck off!" You kdis should not write anything on the internet before you turn 26. What the hell are you talking about! Attractive men and women was always preferred by literally everyone including babies! What fetishization? If you know that you are attracted to a hair colour or a skin color or a certain height, or muscularity, or bodyfat percentage or highness or dept of voice, or to confidence or to the lack of it etc, that is not fetisization! That is the person knowhing what they want and what they like! This "goth fetisization" is a dumb kid thing that does not exist. Everyone who participate i nspreading this lie is basically craving attention. and this bs keeps coming back again and again and agian it is just rebranded. Grow up you all. We older folks were here when you guys parents were not even alive and we know that you are wrong, we lived the birth of all the subcultures that are around here and we were just as stupid as you guys are at your age.

[@lucymillard1230]

Had this 20 years ago. Goth women always get harassed. It's not fun. Goth men generally risk getting beaten up instead. This is why safe venues are important. You can also buy fast fashion used or second hand to make goth clothing - you don't need to buy goth labels. Make your own stuff, much closer to a punk anti capitalist philosophy.

[@krysiss]

It's really sad to see that we've barely made any progress in 20 years but you can't change homophobes I guess.

[@gzuskreist1021]

lol you are such a victim.....

[@kaelell4697]

@@gzuskreist1021my brother you have a warhammer pfp, and from that comment alone you probably think the imperium are the good guys

[@JeremyLevi]

It's not new, for sure. It's just the ease of keyboard warrior harassment online that's way more in your face, but at the same time way less physically threatening.

[@chrisk5985]

​@@gzuskreist1021cringe

[@julianvn2k]

I do want to quickly add that early punk and post punks obsession with N*zism was never about the politics, but rather about the shock value. In the 70s and 80s anything about WW II was very taboo and kept hidden from the younger generations. This obviously just made those young people more curious and fascinated. Bernard Sumner explained this in his book (hes the guitarist from Joy Division & New Order)

[@krysiss]

Yes I knew about that but I didn't wanna mention it bcz I would sound like I'm making excuses for n@zis. That part of Punk really hasn't aged well.

[@julianvn2k]

@@krysiss thats true alot of it aged VERY poorly

[@homuraakemi4559]

What about skinheads? Working class pride and racial pride

[@julianvn2k]

@@homuraakemi4559 Siouxsie Sioux hates n*zi skinheads so much that she wrote the song Isreal just to piss them off. Real skinheads dont hate or disciminate

[@emzetkin1100]

​@@homuraakemi4559 Nazis ain't skins, skins ain't nazis. Real skins listen to reggae and have more diverse friends than their punk counterparts.

[@ChristianBoragine]

postmodernity is basically cosplay everything

[@haxio17]

100% Everything how I grew up is being imitated now By people I usually would never pay attention to Idiots Cosplaying everything

[@TheYoungKilljoy]

It's like the concept of hyperreality, where you have the ultra processed version of an original concept/experience/object, that ends up becoming a caricature and contains nothing from the original concept. Many of these alt kids want to be perceived as alt and follow the "alt guidelines" to achieve this. Instead of just living by their own terms and then finding out that they have something in common with other people to form a new group.

[@ChristianBoragine]

@@TheYoungKilljoy I don't know if you are familiar with Lacan's theories, if you try to read something about the Mirror Stage and Fredric Jameson's subsequent considerations on the formation of the ego in post-modernity there are many ideas to broaden the concepts you are saying. There is also a paper by Jona Peretti on the subject which is interesting.

[@waanaabe-4795]

And I take offense with people dressing up as Doms than crying foul., "shocked" at the effect of displaying themselves as something sexual (they claim they are not) and not taking an inch of responsibility out of ten feet of freedom we've gained over centuries. We used to get ARRESTED for way less.; for some of us, it was protest and we laughed. Don't act "as the world should be", act in the world as it is. Provoke is that is what you want, but then kick ass rather than cry. No one is making you wear anything. Read the room.

[@Biouke]

Post-modernity to be precise.

[@mnky75]

TBH Goth, Punk, Metal, Alt Rock and Rock have been slowly commercialised to a point that it's now just Pop with a bit of Guitar.

[@haxio17]

It has been commercialized for Decades Those from the OG Eras laugh at it

[@IGNEUS1607]

Get off Spotify and find some real underground music then. This is not the case, your music taste is just more mainstream than you'd like to admit...

[@RoryLynott]

True. Gimme Danger.

[@jay-uu9vj]

olivia rodrigo

[@SpilledMug]

​@@IGNEUS1607 just listen to some video game osts then?

[@LeuLeumas]

"Yeah I am goth" >travis scott plays in every post

[@draco_1876]

Travis Scott is unironically better than any goth “music”

[@LeuLeumas]

@@draco_1876 Completely different genre and personal preference aside. The goth culture is based on the music

[@GeosNotHere]

@@draco_1876get some taste LOL

[@arguably8390]

@@draco_1876 your parents should have used rubber

[@spikey0245]

@@draco_1876eww

[@fishboi7425]

I think the biggest issue with modern punk is people care more about how they are perceived and how they look instead of the actual politics and scene of it. Putting on a studded leather jacket and eyeliner doesn’t make you “punk”

[@RevStickleback]

Punk doesn't have to be political, and 'the scene' is usually their contempories that they play gigs with. They might have different attitudes to bands from 1970s London or New York, but why wouldn't they? They don't personally know those bands. They've never sat around and socialised with them, and discussed the world with them. And they have different life experiences to them. It creates this damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, where modern bands are criticised for 'just copying' older bands, or not being true to punk, because the don't look/sound/act like those older bands.

[@DrunkyPunky]

Dunno I’ve heard loads of things like this recently think this seems like an American thing. The punk scene over here is still pretty grassroots and DIY. Could be totally wrong tho

[@robertrada4783]

They’ve always been poseurs.

[@RevStickleback]

@robertrada4783 In the USA that kind of look was not really the style for punk, so there's an attitude that if you dress that way, then you are more interested in how you look. That attitude though is about as universal worldwide as the mm/dd/yyyy date format.

[@DrunkyPunky]

@@RevStickleback That makes sense I guess where as over here that was kind of the “style” all through the hayday

[@sc6658]

I’m such a big post-punk girlie and yeah I’ve not seen much if anything promising when it comes to modern punk/goth types. The amount of people who give me weird looks when I say that goth is a music and literary subculture over anything and that someone who wears cargo shorts every day is more goth than someone doing full Siouxsie Sioux cosplay if the former listens to the music and the latter doesn’t is just WILD.

[@haxio17]

It's wild that people are still cosplaying how we grew up

[@day-yw9nu]

​@@haxio17 they are Shein goths

[@MIZZEN561]

What do you think of the rise of Eastern European post-punk bands like Molchat Doma?

[@ghostdagreat]

It's so lame how many you her punks and goths are insecure about not dressing for the subcultured (I see a lot of them asking if they can count themselves as punks on punk accounts), when by being actually involved in the culture they're more alt than any of the people dressing up for tiktoks.

[@muppetry1]

Just like slc punk( the movie) message

[@AnthonyfrmYO]

I think tiktok has a lot of people dressed up like Punk Rockers but know nothing about it . Cultural appropriation !

[@krysiss]

yesss

[@sawtooth808]

On the up side if it motivates the under 18 crowd to listen to Joy Division, Bauhaus, Love and Rockets, This Mortal Coil (okay that one is too much to ask), Sisters of Mercy, and Jesus and the Mary Chain (they’re not goth, but they’re a damn good band) I’ll take that as a win

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

I always say that when an ad has a Garage Rock sounding song or people being fake like you're saying. "DON'T APPROPRIATE MY CULTURE!!!"

[@AmeKeith-y2f]

oh especially when they purchase their outfits from scummy mass production things. Using the fashion, to me, isn't appropriation, but using it from scummy brands AND calling yourself a punk/subculture decended from punk/punk attitudes is truly cultural appropriation. It isn't fair that because something is a sub culture they get to treat it like a joke. We're not actually gatekeeping, we're more than happy to show you how to be part of the culture. It's not hard. BUT IT IS A CULTURE- it has rules!!! ffs...

[@birdsarerathercool]

@@AnthonyfrmYO first time in history it didn't happen to black people surprisingly, although it wouldn't surprise me if capitalism hasn't done it to other people before

[@LexiTheSaneLeftysCrustyWorld]

This has been happening for 40+ years. People complained about Hot-Topic in the 90's. The Dead Kennedys made fun of it in the 80's "Come get your clothes at Circle A". Everything gets sold out & commercialized pretty quick. The label "grunge' got tagged onto plenty of clothes descriptions in like ads for Kohls or Shopko. But what would I remember?

[@sawtooth808]

Never mind that a lot of people wore plaid flannel in Seattle not because it was fashionable, but because it was cold and damp in Seattle.

[@LividImp]

@@sawtooth808 It was a thing even in hot southern California. Flannels were blue collar clothes that last forever and were the height of unfashionable before Nirvana. You could pick them up at thrift stores super cheap (along with torn jeans). I remember buying them for a dollar each. Then grunge happened, and suddenly you have department stores selling flannels for $100 and selling pre-ripped jeans. I almost shit myself laughing when I first saw that.

[@haxio17]

Hot Topic 1988

[@vvRADOvv]

everything is not just some relative cycle. this is fake. full stop

[@RH1812]

As an old person…it seems to me, from the 60s to the 90s, youth culture evolved, each sub culture growing from another. Punk to New Romantics, to electro, to acoustic etc. the growth of the internet has created a world where folk can play dress up. We seem to have lost natural subculture and gained an homogeneous blob

[@clvrswine]

Well said. I love Synthpop and Twee at the same time. Not at all a blob! Fcuk, I listen to the worst Country when on vacation. I miss being a strict Subculture, if only to goof on other genres.

[@zerir.3726]

It's very fascinating to watch us (young people in this situation) who meet up in real life and slowly almost create it again... and then lose it. its very frustrating

[@Wolkenwandererr]

the early 2000s had internet but there was definitely an actual subculture and it felt natural. The Mayans were just right, world ended in 2012. Never felt the same since

[@plebisMaximus]

@@Wolkenwandererr I've been saying that for years. The world ended in 2012 and we've all been in hell since lol

[@ivetteromero3771]

I'm a woman and for quite some time I used to dress in a punk/alt fashion style and enjoy the music, but i stopped becuase i often felt like i was a walking fetish for some men around me. So I decided to stop dressing that way to LITERALLY not be targeted. Plus as a black woman i honestly felt under represented and never fully "looked" the part.(also english is not my first language so my bad if there are some errors)

[@Nas97.]

I totally relate as an asian man. People assume we dont fit the aesthetic, even if we have the look and no more about the music and history than most of the fans nowadays. The underhanded racism in the rock community needs to be talked about more.

[@CaribbeanGlow]

As a black woman and a goth and metalhead, I never let "lack of representation" hold me back for the past 20+ years ive been heavily into it. In fact I would say there is tonsss of goths "of colour" I saw throughout the years and way more today but unfortunately alot have shoved rap into the music and just like it for the aesthetic. Even in the 2000s I found tons of black goths, emos, punks, scene kids. When I go to the club, tons of black goths. I honestly think the obsession with representation just is an unhealthy obsession with race which is very American and just hinders everyone from doing things they like. What if you had no "representation"? Will you just never get into the things you like? Stop letting the made up concept of "race" that slave masters made hold you back.

[@PunkMarioBros]

It annoys me because I’m a teenager into punk and emo, but I wear a punk band shirt and I’m called a poser by men in their 50s and 60s, I wear a Rites of Spring or My Chem shirt and get called a poser by men in their 30s and 40s, I really can’t win with expressing my musical taste in my fashion

[@AnthonyfrmYO]

@@PunkMarioBros just do and dress anyway you seem fit . As long as you are not hurting anyone no one should give a fu(k what you are doing . Keep your head up .

[@PunkMarioBros]

@@AnthonyfrmYO thanks man

[@Shmeethesquealing]

Rites of spring mention

[@dinsfire8489]

You're experiencing what old goths & punks experienced in their own culture, disdain for expressing themselves. If anything it should make you feel closer to the ones that paved the way for you. Think of it as an honor not to be accepted by society, it's the true punk fashion. Fuck what anyone thinks about you anyways, you've got nothing to prove to them or anyone. Just do you. Cheers

[@mjh5437]

It was no different for the hippies and punks of the 1960s-1970s...if they don`t like it you`re probably doing it right.

[@williamgeorge2580]

Nothing as punk as censoring the word "sex"...

[@sawtooth808]

Blame KZbin’s algorithm for that one 🙄😞🤦‍♂️

[@daybit1961]

### pistols

[@MachFiveFalcon]

@@daybit1961 Pistols can have high capacity magazines, so more like: ### #######

[@daybit1961]

@@MachFiveFalcon oh yeah, my favorite punk rock band - ### ####### and Vib####s!

[@JayBigDadyCy]

​@@daybit1961😂😂😂😂😂

[@behelit1997]

The life cycle of a metalhead is basically -> Born -> Start listening to rock -> Be a rock fan -> Be introduced to the internet -> Be ashamed of being a rock fan because of the internet -> Start listening to other musical genres -> Stop being a metalhead -> 14 Years Later regret your decisions -> Become a metalhead -> Die

[@krysiss]

happens to the best of us 😔😔

[@behelit1997]

@@krysiss talk abt it lol

[@krysiss]

@@behelit1997 might do a video on ozzy some day

[@soulbrother5435]

lmao thats literally me. I went from listening butt rock to being hipster (rym-core etc.) and to being extreme metalhead

[@behelit1997]

@@soulbrother5435 same, I went through everything basically

[@Josh.V]

As a metalhead I fucking hate how my generation fetishizes the fuck out of subcultures such as goths.

[@Josh.V]

Also Fuck TX2.

[@haxio17]

I hate how you all imitate how we grew up

[@Volzotran]

​@haxio17 if you ain't the same age as ozzy Osborne then you imitate as well

[@TutankhamaruCapac]

@@Volzotran More like if you aren't Ozzy Osborne since he was the first one to get copied here so...

[@honigdachs.]

@@Volzotran Incredibly idiotic comment.

[@visualthings]

I'm an old metal/punk gravitating around goth and industrial: Basically, every genre gets gentrified at some point (even before TikTok, you had people who embraced the visual aspect of every genre only for attention and vanity). You had fake hippies, fake punks, fake goths and so on. I just think that some genres are simply not totally compatible with some cultures (that's why country music doesn't have a lot of traction outside the US), and maybe Goth culture is just something that doesn't work in most of the American culture. Besides the look, there was always this melancholic aspect of goth as well as a certain intellectualism. Look at the influence of literature, fine arts (art nouveau, pre-raphaelites like Rosetti) and German expressionism on goth music, and you see something that clashes with a lot of American popular culture. Goths had to face a lot of sarcasm and silly jokes even in England and Germany (where the goth scene was huge). Don't get me wrong, there are true goths in America as well as significant bands, but Goth in the US was culturally bound to fail.

[@krysiss]

Yea I think capitalism is a big part of American culture so Goth was always destined to fail there.

[@haxio17]

It was already appropriated in the 80s

[@sinclairnoire]

I've always wondered that as well. Goth from the USA here and being an articulate or perceptive personality here pretty much gets you ridiculed into oblivion. Political extremists pretty much bully anyone well reasoned into silence here. It's a country with so many layers of irony. Your generational inheritance pretty much predetermined many outcomes but we're told any dream is possible. A country built off of slave traders and ruthless industrialists but we're told it's history is about the working farmer man's revolt against an oppressive colonialist empire. A county that champions freedom but subjects it's citizens to an unprecedented level of cultural and religious control. Just so many layers of irony here.

[@chrishenniker5944]

Country is really popular in England, Scotland, Ireland and Australia. As far as the art movement that influenced the goth subculture, I’d also add Dada, Surrealism, The Beats, Theatre of The Absurd, Fluxus too.

[@whatwedointheshadows3349]

power electronics.

[@syd3552]

Dude. I really resonated with this video. First, as a goth woman myself, it is genuinely scary seeing so many people fetishize us because they assume we fit into some kink of their’s based simply on how we express ourselves. Just because I’m goth doesn’t mean I give you the consent to sexualize me or objectify me in any way. I think I speak for a majority of goth women and femmes when I say that I don’t want anything to do with someone who only wants me because they think they can get away with more around me. Second, LOVED the dive into the history of punk and goth, I think you summarized it in a way that’s great for people who don’t know a ton about those subcultures. I loved the emphasis you put on the art and the music behind them, which (although many forget in a world so focused on aesthetics) is at the core of what it means to be alternative. Along with political ideas of course, but those are often expressed through the medium of the art. Great video! Can’t wait for the Robert Smith face reveal btw lmao Edit: fixed my shit grammar

[@krysiss]

I'm literally Robert's son, you'll see

[@screamingapple6195]

Ain't you a nonbinary?

[@syd3552]

@@screamingapple6195 my gender is pretty fluid! Generally I am perceived as a woman and use she/her but I also sometimes use they/them and will play with my gender. Plus, haven’t updated my bio in years lol. Hope that helps with any confusion :) edit: updated it

[@Jroc84]

Everyone wants a goth girl until they have to listen to the music. That's what I say. They like the look and fetishize it but they don't care about the music or culture of it.

[@clvrswine]

Sorry, but 99.99% of Goth chicks are in a transition phase. They don't really connect with the music, but they do connect with the look. Most Goth females don't know shit about the music. They are just conforming and trying to get approval from other, similarly dressed women. Again, they have no real passion for the music. Being "Goth" was an easy way to get some level of acceptance. These same acceptance seekers abandon the genre and move into Rockabilly / Punk / pop-Punk (yikes!) or other niche (and tattooed) genres, again, for a deep need for acceptance.

[@randomguyontheinternet7940]

You hit the nail on the coffin, One thing I want to add on is how much labels (not record labels, but pinning down definitions) have absolutely fucked creativity and have made subcultures like Punk, grunge, and goth into commodified fashion movements. These are no longer communities pushing important messages forward; and by the time grunge came along the media knew exactly how to undercut the movement by turning kids like Kurt Cobain into massive stars. Kurt Cobain is the amalgamation of punk culture to me, and it is also maybe the ultimate contradiction of it. He wanted to be famous so desperately and had a hard time covering the whole "I dont wanna be famous" mask he held up until he eventually realized that fame does nothing but neuder creativity and pacify important messages on it's own- because thats how the machine works. He conveys the personal plight and emotional honesty and the activism through his feminism and satire of idealistic conservative ideals. Labels give a personal attatchment to something, eapecially when it means something directly like Punk, or Alternative. When the idea of alternative or punk music becomes a formula creativity is lost. One could call many old blues and folk performers the true original punks of modern culture, they spent their lives improvising performances, writing songs in protest, all with a strong grip on their souls and emotional honesty. But if punk can only be fast power chords than oh well there goes that. Personally I entirely disregard Punk and Alt as genres and more of an ethos, these are defined by being defiant and challenging and should always be evolving. Its strange how genres blend and mix more than ever yet have never ever had stronger walls built between them by mainstream media than back when blues music wasn't allowed to be sold in most towns and it took Europe for America to realize they had a moneymaker to betray. Jazz or Funk can be just as Punk as Richard Hell, the future of Punk newds to take advantage of our knowledge of modern civilization and holding eachother to higher standards, not in checklist form, but in our ability to stand tall and change as people for the better if we want true liberation, and not just another label to comform to. We need strong communities, and maybe that does mean taking advantage of social media but we should seek to engage with our minds rather than become more mindless slop. You know we're in dire times when even Hip-Hop is struggling with comformity. Loved the video im gonna check out those bands you mentioned at the end. I still gotta listen to more Cure and Susie lol.

[@krysiss]

I think you're absolutely right. Only recently did bands start identifying with one singular genre because of social media and trends but the greatest bands back then never identified with anything. The Cure is the best example of constant creativity so I think you're gonna love them. They became an iconic Goth band but they ever called themselves Goth, it was just a title given by the fans.

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

Nah not true. Go underground, son. It's still as real as it ever was.

[@randomguyontheinternet7940]

@SartorialisticSavage65 I don't remember if I said this anywhere above but I agree. Hard-core's still fucking massive too, maybe more than ever before.

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

@@randomguyontheinternet7940 I agree. It's (Hardcore) impossible to keep track of. Wayyyyy too many bands in everyyyy city. I Don't follow it that closely but I've been to the few random ones at divebars here in pdx. I really seek Garage Rock/Budget Rock/Power Pop/77Punk/Rockabilly/Surf/Etc but also the neo-garage and Post Punk Garage Rock stuff. I never run out of shows to go to every month.

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

@@randomguyontheinternet7940 Absolutely it's hard to keep up with it all. There's way too many Hardcore bands PER CITY. I keep up with Garage Rock/Punk/Power Pop/Surf/Rockabilly/Budget Rock/Etc and I never run out of stuff to see monthly both old and cutting edge.

[@ghosthuntuk7457]

glad to hear someone talking abt how the tiktokification and corporatization of punk is antithetical to the movement

[@clvrswine]

Name a single Punk band you listen to. I doubt you can.

[@DeaDiabola]

@@clvrswine Not accumulating the punk points you think with this comment, my man. Been in both the scenes for decades and it's disappointingly hilarious to see that people are still policing other people when they have 0 reason to suspect they're a poser

[@GFEBMX]

"yes thats right punk is dead it's just another cheap product for the consumers head"

[@GillOnGames]

I haven't gotten to that part of the video so I don't have context on the quote but aside from 'tik tok punk' there are so many amazing bands putting out music right now like The Story so Far, Heart Attack Man, Drug Church, and Koyo just to name a few. If anything, punk that isn't this mainstream machine gun Kelly ass punk, is absolutely thriving right now

[@kaelell4697]

@@GillOnGamesrefused is a good one, cyberpunk 2077 is a game that really got me into “punk” culture, johnny silverhand is a character that somehow connects with me in a way i really dont understand maybe its because hes bpd coded

[@ioakimanderson3601]

Bubblegum rock on plastic transistors. Punk became a fashion like hippy used to be

[@GillOnGames]

@@ioakimanderson3601 Not really sure whats bubblegum about a band like Drug Church, or even Heart attack man, but whatever you say lol

[@Smoke.stardust]

@@GillOnGamesdollhouse is an obscure ass band

[@darthfluffy216]

postpunk doesn't mean "came after punk"... post- in art indicates deconstructive intent

[@Mars-sq6kq]

holy shit this explained a lot

[@BananaPhoPhilly]

Yep. Just like post-grunge, it was almost a subtle parody/subversion of the genre that inspired it

[@clvrswine]

@@BananaPhoPhilly Wrong. Post-grunge doesn't exist, if only because "Grunge" is not a genre.

[@rhonwenbaker2448]

"deconstructive intent" I love that phrasing.

[@eightcoins4401]

Post punk also started at the same time as hardcore punk. Its because everyone was sick of the braindead frat boys in Sex Pistols and didnt wanna be associated.

[@ethrixhd7081]

I just wanna say, censoring the word sex is exactly part of the tiktokification of this. And also goes against what these early punk bands were trying to do... Aside from that, amazing video, you earned a subscription from me

[@Eirik_Bloodaxe]

Why are we censoring the word fetish too ?

[@deliciousstrawberries]

​@@Eirik_Bloodaxe youtube might not like these kind of words haha

[@animationfiend5499]

But would you rather have the video be restricted, limiting it’s message? It’s a trade off.

[@jacquelinealbin7712]

The goth scene is thriving rn, lots of amazing bands in the scene, internationally too. Twin Tribes, Nox Novacula, Urban Heat, Aurat, Rosegarden Funeral Party, Vision Video, Then Comes Silence, and Crist vs Warhol are all recently-ish formed bands that are active in the scene. Local goth nights are pulling decent numbers, but the fanbase is aging, average age at the events is usually in the late 40s. But it's fun, and not all cringey pop-punk from tiktok.

[@Anonymous-wb3nz]

Yes! I'm a Goth DJ and I can vouch for this.

[@oneirosmorpheus]

I agree and I'm happy to see this too. I went to Darker Wave fest last year and I was hearing many older couples enjoying so many bands they never heard of. They appreciate that the new bands coming out are keeping the torch alive of groups influence of 80s music post-punk, goth-rock and new wave.

[@xnocturne1334]

There’s a deathrock revival coming soon. Look i to the debauchery of the SoCal mince and “punk” scene, and you’ll see how goths will emerge once again from these ingrates.

[@chrisk5985]

Nox Novacula is fantastic! I drove 4 hours a few years ago to see them live and they are incredible performers with incredible music

[@EvelynSucksAtLife]

Twin Tribes is really awesome

[@KornKobb]

My main problem is the misrepresentation and the s*xualization TX2 does, yeah, you can find goth girls hot but you don’t just scream goth dommy mommy for a bit and promotion of your songs 💀

[@KornKobb]

He just uploaded a video on instagram showing how little he knows about goth…

[@sophiepooks2174]

@HarlanDraka666 Yes I would be reaching for my taser for sure, same as if any predator came at me in a hostile manner just as a precaution.

[@mauswaffles]

dudes like 30 too like his embarrassment rubs off HARD.

[@Whitehorse_crimefighter]

I was talking to someone bout this recently. There are a lot of young kids coming to local punk rock shows where they've been missing for years. I highly suspected tiktok people were telling people to go to local shows or something.

[@lilyjun3]

honestly them encouraging to support your local scene instead of just going to big rock concerts like deftones for example is way better than them not being involved at all, everyone should support their local music scene

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

Nope. I have goals.

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

​@@lilyjun3Indeed.

[@Rowlesisgay]

"You pretending to be ironic and making shitty meta jokes doesn't really fix any of this"

[@plebisMaximus]

real

[@KironVB]

Zoomers have no real subcultures/counterculture. That's the issue, they have no connection to these scenes, as the scenes have been driven extremely underground due to various reasons (noise complaints, venues closing after 08, police targeting) and you need to know some old 40-60 year old crew member to even know where the gig is, or the scene is functionally dead. Subculture to Zoomers is almost entirely aesthetics and fast fashion and nothing else. You are a Pixie hippy girl one month, then a Goth girl the next then a Grunge head the next, do you even listen to the music? Not really beyond maybe some pop version of it that was top 10 charting. Zoomers literally have no counter-culture or subcultures really at all, Rapid Social Media proliferation and Zoomers massive aversion to Gatekeeping means that any unique organic "scene" that arises, is quickly eaten up through Tik Tok as a fad then spat out and forgotten about 2 weeks later, so Zooms really have no chance of having a serious Sub/Counterculture of their own developing. Only scenes that are still healthy, are ones that literally went into hiding and gatekeep heavily and keep their presence pretty much off the internet, like the Doof Scene. Everything else gets commodified before it even has a chance.

[@sporovid5856]

I think you hit the nail right on the head. I’m annoyed with all of anti gatekeeping rhetoric. You need a reservation to stay at a nature park, right? Because otherwise the park would get trashed by tons of people. That’s why gatekeeping is a good thing.

[@RabbiB0Y]

Ok boomer

[@haxio17]

@@RabbiB0Y Boomers are the OG Punks and Goths lol

[@haxio17]

@@RabbiB0Y That's who you all imitate

[@edgy55]

*if you know when to do it. I agree that a certain amount of gatekeeping is ​perfectly ok if you don't want your genre to devolve beyond recognition but it's important to realize that doing it too much can in fact be extremely toxic and elitist (looking at you Maximumrocknroll)@@sporovid5856

[@sologemeni]

I'm really glad you spoke my mind on the subject, I've been frustrated with this for months on end. "goth" is now so sexualized it's, just like you said, pretty much a pornographic search term at this point, with alternative TikTok e-girls wedging themselves into the scene and fucking it all up for everyone. like, holy shit, can't you all just STOP MASTURBATING?! Caroline Carr is one such example, literally the Avril Lavigne of the genre, watered-down, missing the mark, and lacking genuineness. not to mention that I'm straight-up tired how 90% of self-professed goth fashionistas are actually just alternative, while half of the 10% actual goths have now started gravitating towards body-tight fashion with the sexualization of genre-specific elements like fishnet now taken to an extreme. even the newtrad makeup style is increasingly sexualized. frustratingly, I'd say the grand, grand majority of "goths" are just alternative people who got the label slapped over them due to an early childhod rife with sexualized goth female characters and now roll with it - to the chagrin of actual goths, or people that have a vested interest in the culture and what "goth" represents as a political movement. so, thanks Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon, I guess

[@danielsmokesmids]

are you mad that they’re getting more attention than you? womp womp

[@XXTH3ST4RXX]

@@danielsmokesmids clearly you didn't watch the video

[@sologemeni]

@@danielsmokesmids should start showing my tongue and wearing tight corsets and ripped nylon stockings then. thanks Caroline Carr defense league!

[@XXTH3ST4RXX]

yep, it's sad that everything is just an "aesthetic" now, with no regard to the actual roots

[@krysiss]

yea its really sad

[@frankfurhter]

I'm 18, realized I was a goth when I was 16 when I started getting into Alice Cooper, Type O Neg, Siouxsie and Ghost after a long teenhood of being infected by the metalhead virus. I hardly play into the fashion, my entire wardrobe is practically the same as Wolverine's, yet everything else about goth culture speaks to me on a spiritual level - the art, the literature, the music, the fashion, all of it. Having autism and some physical disabilities makes it difficult for me to seek out real-world communities and there isn't even much to start with in my area of London. As such, my only exposure to other goths in person has been almost exclusively through girls I met in college who watch too much tiktok and think that all it's about is Tim Burton and Deftones. I met maybe one person I could say is a genuine goth and she was a horrible person who ruined my friend's life, so I haven't exactly had the best time. It's becoming increasingly difficult to relate to or find kinship with other people my age because of how disingenuous social media has made us. I remember being attracted to goth women ages before it became a mainstream porn trend, because obviously I'm gonna like people with similar interests to me, and now I can't even suggest that without people thinking I'm a creep brainrotted by a popular fetish. Having to explain to people that goth is not simply an aesthetic or a fashion trend and is in fact an entire art culture is like teaching calculus to a brick wall. I've got a horrible case of bad luck where everything I get into seems to get bastardized shortly afterward, and this is the final straw for me. Can't have shit here.

[@christophbethe7871]

You literally didn't mention even one band that could be considered goth besides Siouxsie...I mean deftones and Ghost??? Really?

[@frankfurhter]

@@christophbethe7871 Was that literally all you looked for? I didn't even say I listened to Deftones, personally I hate their music. I'm not gonna list literally every band I listen to so I can appease gatekeepers lmao

[@FuriousIdea]

CORNY

[@petonchiospataponchio366]

I get that it was likely just an off-hand joke, but did you really need to talk about the "metalhead virus" in a comment lamenting your frustration with your subculture not being properly appreciated? (I highly appreciate both punk and metal btw)

[@frankfurhter]

@@petonchiospataponchio366 It was meant as a joke lol. I've got nothing against metalheads.

[@JayGrrl]

The Damned really got glossed over for Sex Pistols; like Dave Vanian is our gothfather and it relates to both of the main genres you discuss. Especially the future 'look' of goth; there is also a big significance missing for the Batcave's influence on style.

[@amnm920]

It's probably because The Damned were way less controversial and considered a bit cheesy in comparison.

[@deno7343]

@@amnm920 Still... The first Punk band from the first wave to release a single, to realease an album and to gig the US...

[@washyourmouthoutwithpope1334]

was looking for this comment

[@kimberlyvespa]

Exactly! Great live! I’ve seen them twice. Eighties on their Fuck Off tour! Lol! Then early nineties.

[@mjh5437]

Speaking as a 60-year old Londoner who used the go there a lot,The Batcave club didn`t have any ""influence on style"" whatsoever,it was just a place where people who already had the punk/glam/goth style went to get drunk and dance and pick up girls/boys and ideally get to jump the bones of someone similar at the end of the night lol

[@LividImp]

I'm an old school punk with an old school goth wife. I have to say you've got a lot of this correct, and that is a rarity on social media. The big one most people don't seem to get nowadays is how "post-punk" wasn't really a genre, it was just an extension, a maturation of the punk scene. I never even heard the term "post-punk" until maybe the 90s? Most people either just continued to call it punk, goth, alternative music, or sometimes new wave (but that was generally for more mainstream leaning bands). At least in the US the scene was still pretty small even by the 80s and people in it really didn't need to describe the genre you listened to, you'd just talk about bands. That's a lot of what patch jackets were all about. They weren't these stupid fashion accessories you see on r/punk for insecure teens to pledge their allegiance to the trend. It was a way to advertise to the other punks in town that you existed (because there might only be a few of you). If you saw a guy with a set of bands you loved, it was an instant friendship. Anyway, I need to stop or I'll write a book about the old school scene. I feel I have to point out some of the things you got wrong though: 1. People really didn't care about politics that much back in the 70s and 80s. At least, not in the way people do today. Most people were pretty apolitical back then and that especially holds true for the early punks and goths. The politics angle mainly started with Regan and Thatcher, and by that time most considered punk "dead". It was really more of a social movement. People were just sick of the radio being nothing but progressive rock and yacht rock bands. Really no different than what happened with the grunge scene years later and no one sees that as being political. It was really about breaking social conventions. Sexual liberation also wasn't really held up high, again it was more a side effect of breaking the social norms. Some bands (like the Clash) were explicitly political, and a lot had obvious political leanings, but it would have been considered weird to be as tribal about politics as we are today. People would have seen you as some kind of zealot. 2a. All the nazi arm band and fucking kids thing was mostly just trolling (before trolling was a term). It was just a way to upset the old folks and keep the squares out of the scene. It was a tongue-in-cheek joke. Very few actually believed any of that nonsense, and once they revealed themselves, they got run out of the scene to form the white power music thing. Again, most people just didn't even care that much about politics and both the far left and the far right were so few in number as to be negligible (at least in the US). The punk movement was really just more anti-authoritarian in character, and both sides are very capable of becoming authoritarian. 2b. As an aside, Johnny Lydon is his own case. He clearly has a penchant for just riling up people to a point of self-destruction (which, to be frank, is pretty punk). I don't know how seriously I'd take his MAGA T-shirts and rants. He's always said shit that pisses off even his most diehard fans. He's probably the most love/hate artist out there. Being as anti-Trump as I am, I was super disappointed in seeing him wear that, but I also don't see him pushing the worst of the MAGA rhetoric these days. But if he ever goes full blown MAGAt, then I'll be the first in line to knock the rest of his teeth out. 3. Making money wasn't so much of a punk social taboo, it was changing your music to fit with social norms that was taboo. That's what "going mainstream" implied. No one cared that much if you were successful. No one really gave the Pistols or Dead Kennedys any grief for selling a lot of records. Some of the biggest criticism was leveled at bands that tried to go mainstream and failed. So it wasn't about success. But to get back to agreeing with you, yea this latest incarnation of mainstream "punk" and "goth" is an abomination. Sometimes when punk gets popular I get excited for the future of the music, but these days every time I check in on r/punk I just want to burn my record collection to the ground and pretend I was never involved in the scene. It's heart breaking for this old man.

[@haxio17]

You never heard it by the 90s ? Then you aren't an oldschool Punk

[@haxio17]

'' The politics angle mainly started with Regan and Thatcher, and by that time most considered punk "dead". It was really more of a social movement. People were just sick of the radio being nothing but progressive rock and yacht rock bands. Really no different than what happened with the grunge scene years later and no one sees that as being political. '' Clueless

[@LividImp]

@@haxio17 Never heard the _term_ "post punk" dipshit. And yes, you clearly are clueless, but I'll forgive you anyway.

[@AbnerAgogo]

If you think that it was stupid for punk to hate the “mainstream” then you don’t understand anything about punk except what you read online. As someone who was there, I can tell you that punks entire reason for existing was to rail against the mainstream- and all the music that you’re talking about that people love and venerate, wouldn’t exist without that despise of mainstream culture. It is literally the essence of punk.

[@haxio17]

Yeah And all the Normies Cosplaying how we grew up

[@Daturadatura]

❤ exactly.

[@Lilylilza]

As someone who is a part of gen z and considers myself a part of the goth subculture, i really enjoy learning about punk and goth history (even as far as the poetry and architecture!) And the fact some people consider themselves punk, goth or alternative and have no clue about the subculture make me so mad, not all of us are like this!!

[@coolthings_1]

The whole "Goth Mommy" thing is weird af I wonder how many of these girls have been objectified just based on their aesthetic

[@sol9059]

Isn't that part of the moviment?

[@Red_Star_robin]

Online: yes many Irl: probably only the really weird people I can imagine litterally saying that in public face to face without the fear of getting the daylight knocked out of them by the person they objectify

[@ducko5404]

I hate the term aesthetic so much because of the internet. Everything is ruined.

[@lleheer752]

@@sol9059 are you retarded quick q

[@Struggler3831]

@@sol9059man what

[@thatkidd2851]

I think another problem is people are too scared of offending other people now so they avoid controversial topics while trying to cater to the mass opinions

[@TemporalMatador]

it's like how you can't even ask questions about jews or their involvement in various aspects of life without being targeted as a nazi racist, despite staggering amounts of evidence of problematic behavior on their part. you'll make more friends keeping the status quo.

[@sarakshik]

I feel like not just the music but also the clothing style have both become ultra clean. I didn't know how to put it until I heard you and realized that this is what was bugging me about tiktok goths, punks, emos and so on. They look the way I would've wanted to look when I was a teenager but those clothes didn't even exist/couldn't afford them so we had to do with what we had and looking back I think that defined the style even more than these carefully curated outfits and tiktok trends and everything

[@chrisold97]

Alice Cooper was a band, and later he changed his name to

[@ToungesandTeeth123]

As someone who is relatively young (18) and got into the subcultures before the most recent resurgence of its popularity it’s been interesting watching my peers either try it on and leave it or genuinely become interested in the scenes as someone who didn’t have the privilege to express my interest in the scene through my appearance until recently my interest in the music and history of the scene has made me appreciate the resurgence as it allows more people into the scene and allows it to grow and evolve but it’s also shed light on certain problems like the consumerist culture which has been emerging for some time as well as the lack of experimentation and people feeling the need to fit these cookie cutter looks and sounds of goth and punk and the heavy dependence on labels which I really dislike

[@bigb5681]

Honestly as a brit you can just describe the 80s as "fucked" and every Englishman scotsman irishman and Welshman will just simultaneously nod in silent agreement

[@mjh5437]

Honestly (as another Brit) compared to the 2020s the 1980s in Britain were sheer paradise.

[@RevStickleback]

@@mjh5437 I don't think anyone working in industrialised Britain in the 80s would agree. People were rather more concerned about losing their livelihoods, and their future, compared to the stress caused by some brown people arriving in small boats.

[@OnaOmaOla]

@@RevStickleback You mean losing their entire country, culture & safety. 90% of those coming being men from misogynistic cultures, suppressing wages & glutting the housing market so no working class person can afford a home. They'd f'n hate you and think of you as an elitist automaton for the handed-down globalist establishment thoughts you're reflecting.

[@whssy]

This Brit, nodding in silent agreement. Luckily I got out in the mid-90s and moved to Scandinavia (growing up in the 80s, that was always my plan to get away- that's how s..t it was). Missed the Blair years, which would have probably been endurable. But when the Tories got back in again, I knew it was all over. And TBH every person I know who is still stuck there says the 10s and early 20s were far worse than the 80s.

[@CommanderWar64]

Fetishization of aesthetics is not a real problem. I think it’s a problem to harass people on the street, that’s always been an issue. At the same time, you bring up the sexual liberation, but that isn’t a real, definitive part of the current status quo, that exists on a personal case by case basis. Not everyone will be as progressive on that topic. People are attracted by aesthetics because it’s a way of expressing yourself and aesthetics say a lot about you, including political opinions and moral values. That’s why “posers” and commercialization of aesthetics are so frowned upon, they devalue those avenues of expression. Aesthetics exist as a way for people to relate to one another, so I think it’s perfectly reasonable for people to think that aesthetics are attractive as they serve as a sign of common ground. This is, however, all a result of our ever-diminishing social cohesion; we feel more connected to ideology or aesthetics over nuanced individualism.

[@SeanHartnett-t8c]

true.

[@SOBEKCrocodileGod]

As someone who grew up loving pop punk and emo and seeing all the “REAL punk” elitists hate on that music and fashion or outright mocking me for enjoying it (it didn’t matter that I liked the “REAL” stuff too, they considered it a sin to enjoy the pop stuff and didn’t want me to like the stuff they like too), seeing the cheesy attempts at reviving it and “DID I JUST WRITE THE SONG OF THE SUMMER???!” shit, I cringed and thought “Am I going through the same thing those punk elitists went through seeing the pop punk bands I love blowing up?” lol

[@haxio17]

And we still think '' emo '' is the lamest sh it on the Planet lol I do laugh that those imitating our Goth are now pissed off they think they are being imitated lol

[@SOBEKCrocodileGod]

@@haxio17 it’s a vicious cycle lmao Also to be fair, a lot of the bands considered part of that scene hated it. Gerard from My Chemical Romance said “emo is a pile of shit” lmao

[@RandomizersTV]

They hated the cultural context those bands were in as opposed to how they sounded, pop punk sonically was a thing since the 80s and was accepted, it was when bands starting appearing on MTV cribs and overlapping with celebrities, it got TOO big more or less and it drew in the wrong people I love 90 and 2000s pop punk but I guess I can understand the hate to an extent even though it wasn't nearly as egregious compared to now

[@SOBEKCrocodileGod]

@@RandomizersTV yeah nowadays I better understand the anger that many punks felt towards pop punk and mainstream emo, but I still hate elitists who shame those who enjoy it and I don’t feel any regret or embarrassment for enjoying it myself (other than the few MGK songs I enjoy lmao)

[@moonshine5198]

and i will defend and gatekeep emo until i die

[@redsinsaneurbex7691]

Meanwhile Twisted Ecstasy released a whole ass Goth album 2 years ago ad no one gave a Figurehead. Algorithm's fecked aha

[@evanseurkamp6086]

The Fontaines DC praise at the end was awesome to see, my brother and I play in a post-punk band and love Fontaines (as well as all the old bands you mentioned). Fontaines definitely do this genre justice nowadays!

[@timurtheterrible4062]

Hey man, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the subtitles. It's a detail that usually goes unappreciated but it really helps a lot of people. Thank you.

[@krysiss]

Thankss, I know I have some subs whose first language isn't english so it helps them out. I mostly do them because my mic isn't always 100% clear and it just makes the videos better tbh.

[@timurtheterrible4062]

@@krysiss Now I'm one of those subs! My first language isn't English either.

[@TheLokiBiz]

Also, this video needs more Nick Cave/The Birthday Party :P

[@awesome6323]

Alice Cooper used to be the name of the band in the 70s. Later their singer Vincent took the name as his stage name when he went solo.

[@sophiepooks2174]

Yeah he always was a snake, horrible man, great showman but a douche in real life.

[@krovlood]

I am gonna say this: sexual liberation will inevitably lead to fetishism

[@purpledefaultpfp6233]

I can see why you would say that

[@Starrypaws64]

Hot take but it's true

[@RandomizersTV]

People aren't ready for that discussion

[@LilFeralGangrel]

What is "fetishism"?

[@tostie3110]

Didn't that already happen in the weimar 20s, or is that not the same as what you seem to insinuate?

[@vampireoomf]

You are god's bravest soldier for posting this truly I tried to say something similar to this on tiktok (complained about being the only 'alternative' person in a room not wearing microtrends) but woke up to like 60 comments calling me an insufferable narcissist freak (even tho i literally called myself a freak in the post) and that's why i have no friends ??? strange people

[@haxio17]

Why is your avatar styled like Our Parent's Cultures when we were little ?

[@vampireoomf]

@@haxio17 i do not get this comment sorry my avatar is just a comic panel i like

[@protectandsurvivelivinghis3206]

this is how these utter twunts took over alt scenes in the first place, when they first started appearing at metal shows in probably the mid 2010s rightly a lot of us were not very welcoming (and rightly so) and told them to get fucked, as more flooded in and started to try and alter the scene to fit their lifestyle and beliefs (even at the expense of the scene not being the thing it once was that attracted them to it in the first place) they started using the term "elitism" to describe anyone that wasn't happy with the situation, In the end I got bored of it, I haven't been to a metal show since before the pandemic, I wandered off, binned my shirts, binned my patch vest and these days you wouldn't know from looking at me I was ever into metal at all. the scene these days isn't just dead it's gone green and it's started to smell.

[@gx1tar1er]

The Doors were one of the biggest influence on goth rock as well.

[@Anonymous-wb3nz]

Joy Division and Bauhaus were the first Goth bands....

[@mjh5437]

@@Anonymous-wb3nz UK Decay came before both.

[@Anonymous-wb3nz]

@@mjh5437 UK Decay isn't Goth, so irrelevant.

[@sophiepooks2174]

Nikko was the first goth queen mother along with Carolyn Jones. 😀

[@Anonymous-wb3nz]

@@sophiepooks2174 no, Joy Division and Bauhaus were the first Goth bands. Nikko was Gothic, not Goth.

[@HellNation]

I'm glad my fav genre is grindcore and that will never be big on tik tok. We're safe

[@o.siouxsie]

You'd think dungeon synth was never gonna get viral yet here we are. You're never safe lol

[@Starrypaws64]

Fr 😭​@@o.siouxsie

[@Marpai14]

@@o.siouxsie Shit's scary, man! They're coming for dsbm, too.

[@sophiepooks2174]

Don't be too sure, the lines get blurred very easily today with SM everyone has a camera, in 1990 many never thought underground rave would become commercial corporatized kiddycore EDM five years later.

[@Okbuddypal]

Don't jinx it

[@salwa5476]

I love how raw this video is. No fancy lights and professional micorphone, no clickbait - just straight to the point. Keep it real

[@b.w.22]

Hey man - enjoying this video! A few notes: First, the word “detrimental” means something negative, something which takes away or holds back. Second, I think the throughline from Punk to Goth goes more through the Damned than any other early “big” punk band; people most often point to their looks, but also the way Dave Vanian sings is foundational. Another important link is Stiv Bators of the Dead Boys, a band promoted heavily by Hilly Crystal of CBGB, who came to the UK and started/joined the Lords of the New Church, a band that really hit the different marks of what later “goth” came to embody. Finally, I think it’s important to credit NY’s Glenn Danzig and the Misfits for a very early macabre, “spooky horror” influence, along with a singing style a bit like Dave Vanian’s. Great work!

[@spudeism]

Modern punks be like: "Hell yeah I am an anarchist!" "Anyway here's a list of things that you are not allowed to say"

[@krysiss]

I'm not an anarchist because I am above the age of 13. Sorry you can't say slurs :(

[@deadinside9565]

@@krysiss Wow. [do not recommend this channel]

[@sawtooth808]

@deadinside9565 If you think that the idea of being “free” is “walking into a deli and urinating on the cheese” you, my “friend” (used very loosely here) are in for a rude awakening.

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

Nope. That's actually the opposite of what's going on at least most in the real punk scene... They're tired of censorship on the left just like most people are becoming.

[@heyfella5217]

hardest pill for people to swallow is that anarchist punk is very literally about being able to say/wear whatever you want, but with the understanding of consequences that may arise from the words you choose to say. I do NOT think thought and speech police are able to be punk, but that's just me personally.

[@heibk-2019]

Punk becoming removed from its original meaning has been going on for decades, its not really something new. A great example of this is the formerly anti establishment practice of ripping holes in Jeans, becoming a fashion that companies deliberately produce. "Capital has the ability to subsume all critiques into itself.", a quote from the game Disco Elysium comes to mind. Happens to plenty of counter cultural movements.

[@treesurgeon2441]

It was never subsumed. The "counter culture" was always a boomer myth. The culture doesn't reward people who actually stand against its interests. They were always pushing on an open door.

[@SeanHartnett-t8c]

true.

[@Shimamon27]

That little note about a big punk band being fully made just to sell a fashion... Becoming a core band for the movement... That concludes everything from the start. It's all just riding the wave of "look at us breaking the rules!" That's exactly what Tiktokers are doing... They just break the stuff older generations appreciated by taking a dump on everything it was. There's little to complain about really... That was the original intent of the whole "off beat" movements - dunking on the past and focusing on their bottom desires.

[@randomfcounter1930]

the punks crying about their ideals being desecrated is sure a thing isn't it?

[@ooo0o0o0o0o]

My Chemical Romance is NOT GOTH! If anything they are influenced by the later Emo movement but they don't even do that great of a job at that.

[@emzetkin1100]

Remember kids: It matters how you look, it matters what you wear, the image is the attitude from the boots to the hair.

[@RevStickleback]

Funnier still is the hardcore guys knocking punks who like the 'classic' look, saying 'it's not about how you look', before adding 'in our scene it's not fashion - we all wear x, y & z' not realising that that's just as much a look they've adopted.

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

I think that depends on the individual. I'm highly influenced by 60s Mod and 70s-Now Mod Revivalism and so fashion was always a piece of it. Can't be denied. But lots of Punks in the 70s through the 90s didn't have the typical look. Some were just nerdy and plain. That's fine. The Gizmos wore bellbottoms and t shirts and they were a great Midwest band!!

[@LividImp]

@@RevStickleback Ok, but to be fair, the punk movement was very much about things being very stripped down and no frills. If a person is spending thousands of dollars on clothes and spending hours to do up an 18 inch mohawk, then that person definitely doesn't get what punk is. They're just another glam metal guy at that point. Plus, the early scene was very much about being individualistic. If you are just picking your clothes and hair out of a catalogue, then you've definitely missed the point and should expect criticism. People used to make their own individual looks, patching together various styles and second hand clothes. Pretty much every one looked a little different (or just looked like regular people with no discernible style at all). A far cry from the mall punk uniform of today. With that said, yes it is true that the hardcore guys often fall into their own version of conformity too, and it is just as annoying.

[@RevStickleback]

@@LividImp Are 'mall punks' really a thing? Are there really people dressing like punks, who have no interest in the music? It might be a USA thing. I do know that in England, from almost the moment punk gained popularity, there were apparently people who were turning up to shows, who weren't there before, imposing their rules on everyone who got into a punk a week after they did. I do think that women who opt for the 'classic' punk look tend to get a lot of crap about it, for being too clean etc, for buying their clothes (with no proof that they did) and a general lack of appreciation that women do tend to put a but more effort into their appearance, and hygiene, than guys do. As for the woman being talked about in this video, I don't know enough about her to comment (I'd never heard of her) but the odds of her making a living from punk aren't great. There just isn't much money in the genre,

[@LividImp]

@@RevStickleback Absolutely they are a thing. They might know a few bands, always the most popular ones, but they never understand the essence of the music. It's just a fashion thing, and it seems to happen once a decade or so. I don't have a problem with only liking the Ramones, the Clash, Sex Pistols, whatever, and not knowing about the deeper scene. Everyone starts off with a single band, and it will most likely be the most accessible bands. What I hate is the incuriousness and the phony transitory nature of their fandom. It's no different than if you listened to a single Bob Marley album and then ran out to purchase a whole Rastafarian look, never diving deep enough to understand what it all means. You know most of these kids will move on to whatever the next trend is in a few months. But I love getting new people into punk. I'm practically a punk rock evangelist. But you can absolutely tell who has a genuine curiosity and who's just a drive-by trend chaser. And no, this has noting to do with sexism, men get challenged just as much as women do. People just ignore it when it happens to men because there is no political points to be scored. The punk scene was just a bunch of misfits. You would not reject anyone for bullshit reasons. Women, minorities, trans, everything was always a part of the scene from the very beginning, and anyone saying otherwise doesn't know the real history. What happens is one of these phonies tries to get into the scene, people smell a rat, treat them as such (usually without outright saying it). The phony isn't going to admit to even themselves that they are a phony trend-tourist. Instead they cope by making up a narrative about how they were rejected for [insert demographic here]. And how can you even defend yourself against such accusations? It's basically accusing people of thought crimes with zero proof.

[@Gothidote]

Thanks for making this video. & as a Goth Guy myself, I will say, it sucks how TikTok/TikTokers came along & just made Punk/Goth their next Stepping Stone to help “solidify” their fake persona. Like, yeah some Memes are funny, I’ll give em that. But after awhile, it gets watered down QUICKLY. Especially, when it comes to Goth Women. Yeah, you can like them & find them attractive, sure. But to Fetishize them, is a whole other story. Especially, with the whole Pegging thing. Like no, stop. Goth Women just wanna be themselves & have fun. As well as us Goth Guys do. See, so many of these Normies wouldn’t have a problem getting a Goth GF, or a Goth BF, if they just looked at us like HUMANS. As opposed to, their own Personalized Sex Fetish. We’re human just like you. & talk & walk, just like you. But with TikTok, it’s just a travesty. & you can tell too, WHOS Who, & if they’re a Real Punk/Goth or not. It seems like everything that gets Sexualized, gets Fetishized. & there’s nothing we can do to stop it, when we have Dumbass people on these Platforms, just using our Subcultures as crutch, to make them Big & profit off of OUR Lifestyle. It sucks what we’ve come to nowadays. But real recognize real. & these fakes, DEFINITELY don’t look familiar. Especially, on TikTok!…

[@freshskittles92]

the most punk shit you can ever do is be your fucking self

[@samuelwynn737]

I have just given up on my hope for any authenticity with people around me. It’s best just to live in my own little world and love what I loved

[@lexwhy554]

I thought this was gonna be just another video talking in circles how tiktok is cringe, that I could listen to as background noise while I sew, but I ended up stopping it multiple times to google stuff, scroll wikipedia, add new genres to my spotify library, and add runway videos to my 'watch later', and I'm far from being new to the scene. I'd never connected that Vivienne Westwood the fashion house and Vivienne Westwood of the sex pistols fame is the same person for whatever reason? Naither have I really sat down and listened to glam punk or proto punk. Hyperfixing on 'whats wrong with this culture' makes it easy to forget that just learning about it is way more fun. Great essay dude thank you.

[@Heyyouxo]

The TikTok Goth kids aren't going out to Goth Clubs. They aren't going out to events or meetups. They're just sitting on TikTok regurgitating the same old bands from the 80s and being massive elitists. I reassure you, the IRL Goth community is still very exciting and innovative. Please, just go out to a Goth Club. It's the quickest way to get away from TikTok Goths.

[@RevStickleback]

I remember hearing some guy say how proud he was of gatekeeping, and how he'd harass 'mall punks' and posers who went along to punk show in the clubs he went to. It made no sense. Nobody who doesn't like punk would be going along to small punk shows.

[@peyton_0826]

the tiktokification of alternative and grunge is painful as well.

[@v4ndelion]

FR like wtf is grunge y2k fairycore

[@RuneGoblin27]

i agree, i have hated watching people do “grunge haul” videos. grunge was born out of the need to wear clothes to the brink of their ability. The creators of the subculture were broke to death/blue collar workers who were angry and hated the system. Social Media defeats the point, we cant even afford thrift stores anymore because people are buying every little thing to try and fit the ‘look.’

[@Zeitgeist6]

0:28 well that's easy. TikTok. That app needs to burn in hell.

[@mjh5437]

It is awful,all that kind of infantile stuff originates in Japan which has a seriously warped and depraved culture beneath the idealistic futuristic facade.

[@BESSECMMA]

Goths and Punks Before 2024: AGAINST MAINSTREAM Goths and Punks 2024: FOR THE MAINSTREAM!

[@jackyhyurane7362]

hell nah , watch the german bands toten hosen and die ärzte , they call themselfes punks but in fact they are rich mainstream suckers and this started way back before 2024

[@wyrhem]

Thank for the video! As someone without tiktok, unaware of some trends going around me and people's joking comments, i appreciate you talking about issues like these, and elaborating. I found it interesting and not just that it gave me more music to look into, but gave me something to think about as well

[@DiscoVolanteOU818]

for the life of me i cant remember what song this is 0:14

[@purpledefaultpfp6233]

Dude ikr I swear I've heard it so many times but I can't remember

[@krysiss]

How Soon Is Now? - The Smiths

[@treesurgeon2441]

Listening to young people explaining previous eras of music and culture on the Internet is like listening to a blind person explain the color red to other blind people.

[@krysiss]

i tried my best 😭😭

[@hotmultimedia]

@@krysiss I think it was a okay video. Remember that people "in the middle" of something always have a different view of it than someone looking at it from the outside. And often that view is also limited since it's only one person at one time at one place.

[@Bedroomfloorguitarist]

One of the best more recent punk bands definitely has to be destroy boys

[@heyfella5217]

their newest album kicks ass!

[@Bedroomfloorguitarist]

@@heyfella5217 frr i cant wait for funeral soundtrack #4 !!!!

[@8L00D_M00N]

Anyone who likes Destroy Boys has the best music taste

[@Bedroomfloorguitarist]

@@8L00D_M00N oh fir sure they are the best band

[@CosmoEiris]

DESTROY BOYS MENTIONED‼️‼️‼️

[@just_like_heaven_87]

Honestly most of the tik tok punks and goths have no idea about the music or history. They just have the looks, I don’t look as ‘goth’ as them but I have been immersed in the culture since I was little through my alternative family and research on the internet. It’s honestly sad to see what the culture has become

[@White_Owl-d9b]

Punk and goth had become what it despised.

[@SamiHynninen-kh3dz]

I would LOVE to see that whole The Cure live footage. I am a rather old fan, but have not seen this before.

[@krysiss]

I got lucky bcz I found a clip of it on twitter but here's the full concert, amazing performance kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXiyc42ofLxkl5osi=qxdXvquCEvxvsGEr

[@SamiHynninen-kh3dz]

@@krysiss Wow!!!! Thousand thanks for noticing and replying! I really appreciate your kindness. This looked superior already on the clips you had there. Can't wait to see the whole think. Deep bow.

[@Ranger3-75]

"Okay, I'm uploading a video about 'The Tiktokification of Goth and Punk'...so anyway, let's talk about politics I wasn't alive for and know little about!"

[@kingpluto555]

As a fellow post-punker, it concerns me to see post-punk and other genres being ransacked by a community that doesn't care to understand them. It's all about "uwu aesthetic" and cramming together ideas for Pinterest feeds. If I were to see someone fetishizing stuff like Ian Curtis' dancing, I would promptly get a lobotomy. Sounds insane, but anything can go wrong on TikTok. Ian didn't die for cringe.

[@greghauser742]

Well said.

[@romeister]

1:59 aww man i was so excited

[@vika.the.kittycat]

I remember a guy slowly driving next to me in his car and asking me to give him a bl*w job... I even have experienced some man mistaking me for a pr*stitude. I mean - I´m kinda used to these things since they´re not happening rarely. But I just wanna say that it is sad how some people (mostly men) perceive us. Just because I dress a certain way does NOT mean I´m an object. Like bro, I was just trying to get the groceries done...

[@anqareliouth2921]

An astonishingly accurate video. I hope it blows up so that people can learn from it, there's a lot of good stuff to learn from this video. Well done.

[@krysiss]

thank youu 🙏🙏🙏

[@AshWilliamsGirthyBoomstick]

Commercialization and Tiktokification of alt subcultures is kinda why i stepped away. I felt like i no longer belonged and that it wasnt about what it used to be about. Between that and me slowly growing more comfortable with my more masculine side and rural roots, i made the switch to being a greaser for certain after just being vaguely into it for a few years. I wish luck to the real ones during this trying time of goth and other alt subcultures being trendy

[@laxoth]

yeah i made quite a rant lmao We do not need to "bring back punk and goth bands", because they never disappeared. Subcultures are still alive, always were alive, and will be alive. Our music is still made (yeah its almost never that good as the cult bands of the 80s, but all retro music is merely a copy, sometimes made with real love for the original and sometimes soulless) but it was never the thing. Its not possible to make 900k followers on tiktok nor money on actual (post)punk music. It was actually easier then than now for many reasons but even then only few bands became legends from much larger scene (compare popularity of Joy Division to, for example, S*x Gang Children). But the fact that there is not a single success story similar to those legendary bands doesnt mean that genre is dead. If you live in a city anywhere in the West you can easily find a club where punk/goth/metal gigs take place, and thanks to the spotify you can discover amazing music from all around the globe. Its easy to find modern goth bands, I will name only those from my country, Poland, because they make amazing music too but no one outside of Poland will ever hear of them: Miguel and the Living Dead (deathrock/psychobilly), Schröttersburg (postpunk of different kind on almost every album), Wieże Fabryk (cold wave), Allarme (no wave), Nameless Creations (deathrock), Marie Laveau (deathrock), Eat my Teeth (deathrock), Natures Mortes (goth rock) and KSY (goth rock). The thing is not that subculture was taken by cringy people with no imagination, its that appereance was taken from subculture by cringy people who know how to make money on fetishes of our generations, and people who meme about gothgirls arent interested in actual goth music (or any alternative music for that matter) other than those few bands that made they way to the mainstream in the 80s because it is as radical as hc punk or black metal (but in other ways). Edit: I am not mad about tiktok goths or punks, because they are not part of subcultures and thats precisely the thing. Actual goth subculture, centered around the ideas and music is totally different thing from tiktok people, we only share same aesthethic. My problem is when this internet phenomena is seen as the actual subculture.

[@DelightSkull]

If anyone wants some new age goth bands heres a few: This Cold Night My Mannequin Dues Faust The Kentucky Vampires Twin Tribes Horror Vacui If anyone wants to add more, feel free, even better if they don't have a lot of listeners! This sub culture is open, and not meant to be gatekeeped as well as misrepresented.

[@Apolloius]

Molchat Doma? I remember seeing them on goth band lists. I’m a fan of them lol

[@purgatorymorgue]

i love horror vacui

[@Brody-Andrson2010]

I hate how kids at school act like they are like straight punks by listening to… enema of the state by blink 182 and wearing baggy pants. Idk how they think that way. I am inspired by the Misfits and Black Flag btw.

[@Happyradio1234]

I love the Misfits!

[@simonunge6911]

no hate but you sound insanely pretentious

[@Booo883]

@@Brody-Andrson2010 dead boys, the zeros, 999, slaughter and the dogs, the boys, chronic gen, eater, the stranglers, all great punk bands! OG legends

[@paulie6446]

​@@Booo883👍

[@lurkio804]

"I hate everyone saying they're punks when they only listen to the most entry level band... I only like the most entry level bands btw"

[@dumpsky]

very well done! the only thing is usage of genre terms, which can be confusing sometimes as some terms come from the actual era and some were made up in retrospect. while "punk" is actually pretty much a genre, in a sense that you can musically define it to a large extent, "post-punk" is not, as it's merely an umbrella term for anything a little cheeky in the wake of punk, except mainstream pop. it only way much later became synonymous with the sound of Joy Division or Gang Of Four, etc. same goes for "proto-punk" obviously. also the term "goth" was usually rejected by most bands which nowadays represent original "goth". in these times, "goths" were already considered "posers" by more punky folks, which is probably one of the reasons for the "deathrock" genre. (P.S: i actually wrote this 2 seconds before you explained post-punk... lol)

[@krysiss]

lmaoo, yea I know Siouxsie and The Cure never called themselves Goth which is so funny bcz its the most goth thing they could've done

[@andyxstitch]

You should do a video about the gentrification of crust and anarcho punk and how it has been turned into a trend to cosplay poverty which undermines the struggle and movement of the people who started it

[@pl9nningforburial]

subculture has fallen millions must pose

[@haxio17]

Since the 90s

[@tja9212]

9:00 - i wouldnt jump straight into black metal. the most important british genre that got inspired by punk was the new wave of britihs heavy metal, which used classic metals virtuousity but mixed it with the raw elegance and core values of punk, which then formed a rich and young subculture, which then reinvented metal , which also got down and sold out heavily. great video and a great point. very refreshing, thank you.

[@michaeldejong2700]

the bands from the nwobhm are hardrock bands and they have nothing to do with all that metal or punk rubbish

[@lizchesley6028]

I feel like they’ll say “ugh, we were just kidding” when getting pushback but are really just being harassing.

[@rionka]

Thank you so much for these subtitles, its extra helpful ❤

[@atomicmodreviews]

The Chats are a great example of a successful modern band that has the original punk ethos and sound

[@ouriiangel]

loved this vid, this channel is so underrated

[@krysiss]

thank youuu

[@lydialoud]

I tried to use TikTok once a few years ago, but I absolutely hated the format. It seems to be like a big giant cancer on global culture

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

13:32 the fursuit part makes me think it really is just a joke cuz nobody outside of furries really asks for fursuit duets

[@krysiss]

i think she was a furry herself

[@mikususins1767]

I don't think you can see real goths nor punks on tiktok

[@Rugmunchersauce3]

My thoughts exactly. TikTok is so unPunk and dumb.

[@clvrswine]

Name ONE Punk band. I doubt you can.

[@mikususins1767]

@@clvrswine GFY

[@mikususins1767]

@@jamad-y7m kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqvLp3-qor2Kf8Usi=2W5-zA-L9eqr5PgR The band is still active today.

[@PeteWentzlivesinmycloset]

@@clvrswine name one reason i shouldnt smack you in the mouth (:

[@StruggleoftheOutsider]

It's over.. and I know people have been saying its over from the start & I never wanted to hear that either.. but Post Covid, As a counter culture, or a scene, or a community, or any kind of Evolving musical / artistic network that extends beyond you and your immediate friends.. It is over. As anything more than a historical reenactment of past nostalgia fading into the concrete of the past.. It is Over now. For sure. I don't like it.. but it is what it is. Make something new.

[@EvankHorizon]

The gatekeeping and refusal to move forward that some goths have is amazingly cringe. Goth is a lot more than a handful of music bands of the 80's. But some people completely fail to understand that.

[@206hxcx]

i dont have the time money or sanity to give a fuck anymore, i just pretend tiktok doesn't exist. it has zero effect on what ill say, dress like and listen to. seems like that's a good idea, after watching this.

[@TheGabbaGhoul666]

Bauhaus’s “Bella lugosi’s dead” came before joy division and Siousxie and the banshees what are ya smoking brother

[@Akeche]

14:00 They turned into conservatives because the world changed for the worse. "Punk" is no longer punk, it is no longer the counter culture.