The TOP 10 SMASH MOVES (That Used To Suck)

[@MockRockTalk]

Thanks for watching everyone! As mentioned, there were easily enough move candidates to make a sequel video to this if the demand is there. Let me know what you thought, as well as other moves you'd like to see covered! Also need to issue a minor correction for Luigi's dash attack: I knew that it had the same flaw in Smash 64 as well, but some comments have mentioned _that_ was the game where the hitbox was actually coded in, my mistake! -Main channel: kzbin.info -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock

[@awesauce1]

Clouds blade beam should’ve been on here. It’s a crime that it’s not on here

[@nerdcedric]

Yoshi f-tilt. I mean it's by no means a broken move in Ultimate, but considering how utterly pathetic it was in previous games I consider it to be on my list

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

Yoshi ftilt is kind of a weird case because it was pretty good in 64. Good damage, low ending lag, + on shield and it could lead into combos (which other ftilts could not). In Melee, the move largely suffered from the new engine, having less consistent combo potential overall, in addition to having less range and naturally being way worse on shield. The move got a range buff in Brawl but it suffered from having lower damage and being in an engine where it could not reliably combo. Then S4 took that ftilt and gave it less damage, less range and way more ending lag.

[@mtoi7341]

Wonder if there might be a main channel mockrock video concerning which move a character needs reworked, rebalanced, desperately upgraded, overly nerfed- kind of combining the top 10 moves that should be deleted and this one.

[@heliodorable4612]

would love another video of this! as someone who only knows the other smash games casually, it's super interesting to hear about all these technical things and compare them to ultimate

[@waffleman8053]

Pokemon trainer has had the biggest glow up in smash history. In Brawl they were the one of the most gimmicky, messy and nonfunctional characters in the series, to one of the best and interesting characters in Ultimate. Definitely the most improved character in the series.

[@vaderwalks]

Tbh Pokemon Change itself could be on this list.

[@elmaionesosexo]

@@vaderwalks Ivysaur could've been in here alone, if you're wondering about the character, the channel Big Yellow did a great video about him

[@MeesterTweester]

Palutena improved the most from first appearance to Ultimate. She went from low tier to Top 5

[@castform7]

The only character I think contested them in literal brokeness is Melee Kirby.

[@josephtpg7329]

Pichu went from an absolute joke, to making a joke of us all.

[@azurecerulean1279]

i feel like zelda's din's fire or phantom slash should be one, especially phantom slash. It went from one of the worst projectiles in the game that had low health, a cooldown, and wasn't even that dangerous to one if not her best neutral tool

[@elmaionesosexo]

yeah i agree...tho i think they over did it

[@MeesterTweester]

She could still cover ledge with it. Din's Fire has been bad though

[@mythalieon7829]

Agreed

[@gameboyn64]

Dins fire is still bad. It's only usable because of the limited air dodge mechanic. Phantom slash is definitely better than before but is just ok. It's kind of mediocre in neutral being slow, inconsistent, short ranged, and committal. It realistically works as a ledge trap to make your opponent panic. Once you get a good feel for the move, you probably shouldn't be getting hit by it that often.

[@symtrick4782]

@@gameboyn64 it has a nuke sized hit box i am a zelda main and phantom is busted especially with the reverse phantom where u place it infront of you

[@perturbo4253]

I wonder how many people will mistakenly think you were charging Ivysaur's upsmash

[@shiffpup2529]

You mean at 11:43? I've played a lot of Brawl, but... was that his down smash?

[@azurecerulean1279]

@@shiffpup2529 no, its just upsmash was so laggy that the uncharged version looks charged

[@guacodile2528]

@@shiffpup2529 He swings a vine at both sides of him. Another pretty bad move and, unfortunately, still continues being kinda useless in ultimate lol.

[@castform7]

Wait that wasn't charged. God, how did PT function in Brawl.

[@go4cyclone]

@@castform7 it didn't

[@TheCreatorF.M.]

Bowser as a character has just gone nowhere but Uphill since his debut and I for one am very proud of him!

[@castform7]

Considering Melee Bowser was his beginning, there was nowhere to go *but* up.

[@goGothitaLOL]

@@castform7*Melee and Brawl Bowser

[@FirethornYT]

I am so glad they changed him so that he doesn't just use head, shell and claw attacks. His leg moves are now some of the most satisfying moves in the game.

[@dogboyton3166]

⁠@@castform7Ganon’s had the opposite evolution. He peaked in Melee (and wasn’t even that good) and was bottom tier ever since

[@jonathanlgill]

Some I'd mention: DK Hand Slap (Down B) Pac-man Down-Air Pokemon Trainer's Down-B Zelda's Phantom Shulk Back-Slash (now a recovery mixup, also Ultimate doesn't automatically turn characters around upon being hit, so that's a shadow-buff to Back Slash) Mario Up-Smash

[@letsmakeit110]

I'll vote for Peach bomber.

[@minimik75]

Bowser jr neutral b

[@zeospark9715]

@@minimik75 Wait really? I find that attack to be a bit useless because of all of the startup lag it has. It has a lot of ending lag too allowing fast characters to take advantage of him. Reflectors would have a field day with him as well

[@andymcclurg9916]

Yeah, Zelda Phantom went from the worst projectile to one of the best

[@TDG386]

Phantom use to be Sheik, which is good. Mario Up-Smash was only bad in brawl never again

[@sarasaland4709]

I think all of Ivysaur's moves could fit in this list.

[@nightey975]

That’s why this list ain’t ordered bucko.

[@LilyWater84]

I think Jrs. Cannon ball deserves a slight nod. That move went from AWFUL, slow, punishable, committal option to a threat offstage & shield breaker. If anyone ever tells you in that matchup “just shield the cannon” do not listen to them. It has a second hit box while falling meaning past 1/2 charge shield just gets eaten, or it pokes and shoots you into the air. Oh ya and like I said offstage threat it kills if it lands and really limits your options to avoid it

[@charKT-7461]

It wen’t from awful, slow, punishable to awful, slow, a little less punishable

[@YounesLayachi]

It got better but so did every other projectile in the game. In fact the cannonball is lagging behind even more now

[@Kenorbs]

9:33 You forgot to mention what the most impactful change was, the endlag. All of Kirby's dash attacks have had really punishable end lag in the past, and if you shield it you can get a giant punish. Because dash attack in ult crosses-up shields and only has a bit of endlag (it's techniqually -31 on shield but between the massive distance you get and a few other factors it's pretty safe, especially compared to most dash attacks) you get a super good move. Also, if you time the startup properly, you can catch roll away with the weak hit, which can combo. So basically instead of a completely useless move that did literally nothing, now you have a move that kills if you get hit, is safe on shield, and covers retreats in a way that puts you in a really bad spot. The killpower is really only a small part of the upgrades to the move.

[@zernek9199]

The dash attack bug with Luigi is actually in Smash 64, the Melee devs likely thought it was intentional and left it in. Unless Melee also had the same bug present in which case that’s kinda funny

[@SpaceFrog999]

This is true, he says that the final hit was mistakenly not triggered for the move in melee, but actually that was the case in 64, and the melee devs didnt notice and never even coded in a final hitbox. Therefor, melee luigis dash attack is TECHNICALLY working as intended. It was just intended to suck.

[@MockRockTalk]

Yeah, a few people have pointed this out, I did know 64 and Melee both had that functionality but got my wires crossed on the hitbox coding. Pinned a correction to the video, thanks!

[@YounesLayachi]

What you call "melee" is just a 13 month upgrade for the original smash, they named it "deluxe" like mario kart 8 deluxe is to the original mk8. That is to say, it is normal to have a lot of elements reused between the original game and the deluxe version.

[@zernek9199]

@@YounesLayachi code has been reused in every smash game lmao but yeah Melee was rushed as hell. I wonder what it would be like if they had the time to properly "finish" it.

[@rocketleax5]

@@YounesLayachi I'm pretty sure Melee is the only game that did not share code with it's previous game, since the formats of the consoles were entirely different, the 64 code was unusable for the GameCube so they had to redo it on the fly.

[@kuramisaga]

now you've got me interested in the top 10 worst smash moves that used to be good..

[@jonathanlgill]

Falco Laser, for sure.

[@dush.1746]

Marth throws

[@guacodile2528]

@@jonathanlgill Falco laser is still a good enough projectile, just nowhere near as crazy as it was in Melee and Brawl Unless you are talking about the smash 4 incarnation

[@Rarest26]

Both shines (thank goodness for that though), Mach Tornado, Bayo as a whole… even some less extreme cases like Shoryuken or Cloud up air. There’s a good amount.

[@jonathanlgill]

@@guacodile2528 "Crazy" to "good enough" is still a considerable drop.

[@genericchannel4910]

Well, Ness players did press the B button, but the stick moved too.

[@jmurray1110]

Not really in melee he had no good specials The best you had was up special but that’s due to its recovery and a glitch with down smash

[@justafan9206]

@@jmurray1110 *up smash, if you're referring to the yo-yo/jacket glitch.

[@jmurray1110]

@@justafan9206 yah but specifically yo-yo jacket PK thunder

[@justafan9206]

@@jmurray1110 I know.

[@DeronHargrove]

I genuinely feel that Ultimate did an amazing job with characters. Even with my minor complaints about the game and its decisions, Ultimate is easily one of my favorite Smash games

[@mordeymay3739]

Why isn’t Lucas PK Freeze here? It went from literal garbage in brawl in Smash 4 into one of the most devastating edgeguarding tools in Ultimate!

[@Kragglover2003]

^^^^^

[@MT_Rift]

Probably for redundancy because of how similar it is to PK Flash. Though I’d argue that PK Freeze has been buffed more

[@mythoughtsexactly2145]

Maybe its because compared to PK Flash, it is a better edge guard move since it freezes the opponent. In PK Flash's case, it isnt Ness's reliable kill move so its just useless a lot of the time

[@psiforce8342]

PK Freeze was a viable move at least even before Ultimate, most especially compared to PK Flash. It's not a bad move since it has a really fast charge time, but the rewards makes the move feel niche. The best u can do out of PK Freeze is following up after the enemy is frozen, notably going for PK Thunder 2. So it did have some use, hence why it doesn't suck when compared to PK Flash. While it did get better in Ultimate, when compared to how PK Flash is now, PK Freeze still feels niche since the explosion is a lot smaller than PK Flash and it barely goes high, so it's easily avoidable unless ur character has legit bad recovery

[@dmitrimatthews7898]

Honorable mention: Snake’s jump. I know this isn’t technically a move change, but jesus, 9 FRAMES of startup in Brawl? Not serious about this btw

[@TheTrueBrawler]

You know how it's rumored that Snake used to be a heavy in Brawl but was scaled back at the last second due to the fact that his hitboxes barely seem to match his animations and the fact that he has the 3rd highest weight in the game? I think I finally understand why he may have had the slowest jump squat (not even as a tie) in that game.

[@guacodile2528]

No offense but what would he have to talk about this lmao. Literally the only thing they made was make it faster and that was the case for EVERY smash ultimate character (snake was just the most predominant example)

[@dmitrimatthews7898]

@@TheTrueBrawler Yeah Snake was a heavy with dumb disjoints, but having to wait 1/6th of a second to LEAVE THE GROUND kinda blows. I personally never played Snake, but any time I’ve tried him out in training, all 2 times I’ve done that, it’s felt like the most clunky thing in basically any smash game.

[@dmitrimatthews7898]

@@guacodile2528 Fuck I forgot to say I was joking.

[@jmurray1110]

Well I’d say he’s just end up going on a tyrade about down air again And I’m up for it let’s hope it’s in the sequel

[@inkyrain3844]

8:43 I was waiting for a bit to see this on the list, and imo you didn't really do this move justice, so here are some reasons why Kirby's dash attack is truly insane in this game: -As you said, the kill power has been kicked up a notch, killing Mario at around 100 at fd ledge with decent di. This is better than his bair, fair and nair. -Comes out on frame 9, which is as fast as sh bair -Lingers for forever, both sweetspot and sourspot -2 frames a decent amount of characters, which combined with the first 2 points makes it very good for hitting opponents at ledge -The sweetspot can be a combo ender out of fair and nair, and the sourspot can combo at mid percents itself -Seemingly very random on shield, sometimes it crosses up sometimes it doesn't, making your opponent have to play a guessing game at times This is a move I really enjoy using, maybe because it's easy to piss people off with lol

[@Noob-uz6by]

Links up b is so good now and can actually be considered a recovery instead of link extremely awful up b in smash 64 just a honorable mention that should been included, also Luigi's dash attack in smash 64 is even worse than melees version.

[@Rat_the_Renegade]

Link's up B has been one of the weirdest moves throughout the series. In Smash 64 it went practically no where, it might as well have made him lose height. In Melee it traveled much further as well as the grounded version being a solid KO option and even semi spiking with the tip of the sword. Only real issue is if someone shields it by ledge he could fall off the stage into free fall. In Brawl it went back to being awful. It covers more distance in the air then it did in 64 but it still barely goes anywhere. Sm4sh is where I'd argue the move was at its best cause even though it's pretty much identical in Ultimate Sm4sh Link could do Jab Jab Up B as a KO confirm.

[@YounesLayachi]

@@Rat_the_Renegade are you sure link can't grab ledge from grounded up B ? DK and koopa can, iirc

[@Rat_the_Renegade]

@@YounesLayachi I dont know Melee well enough to say but any video I've seen of it happening he doesn't. I've only played Melee a couple times so.

[@aquatic4699]

Omg, when he said "I know most of my audience hasn't played brawl" I had never felt like more of a boomer in my life

[@SharKing319]

Correction about Luigi's dash attack: it was Smash 64 where it had a final hitbox programmed in, but said hitbox never came out (Samus's up air also had this same problem in the same game). For some reason, the Melee version still doesn't have a finisher, and it's often speculated that the devs thought Luigi's dash attack was supposed to be like that because of how it was in 64. Of course, we don't know that for sure, and it could just be something related to Melee's rushed development for all we know.

[@raffskid857]

4:20 it was smash 64 where it was coded in but not present. Then the devs saw that glitch and thought it was intentional, so they made it like that in melee as well.

[@DaRealJake]

Exactly.

[@castform7]

Looking at just Ivysaur made me remember just how much of an absolute glow up the entire Pokemon Trainer team got in Ultimate. These guys struggled back in the day.

[@typhlosion7872]

Pika back air from Melee to Sm4sh was always ok, but in Ultimate, it is insane. From one of the most nerfed moves to one of the best moves

[@FirethornYT]

Also, don't forget that Melee Kirby DA ran off ledges.

[@nightey975]

11:30 is a fantastic speech. Mockrock really sounded angry there.

[@doggo4078]

To me I think little macs side b got a brilliant change over the change over with it still having flaws but not putting you into special flaw is brilliant

[@gameboyn64]

But not getting it back when you get hit sucks. If you get knocked off stage while using it, good luck making it back.

[@doggo4078]

@@gameboyn64 terry and his side b is what little macs should have been honestly

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

@@doggo4078 Forward special or back special?

[@doggo4078]

@@LloydTheZephyrian huh?

[@MaybeeBizarreSummer]

I did NOT know Ness could combo off of PK Flash now, that’s awesome as hell. That clip you showed gave me chills.

[@Growmetheus]

For a guy with only 15,000 subscribers, your intro is absolutely stunning

[@MockRockTalk]

Lol, KZbin has been my full time job for a couple years now, this is actually my second channel and the intro is the same between both of them, appreciate it though!

[@velvetbestwaifu]

I'm amazed Phantom didn't make it here Was one of the worst projectiles in Sm4sh (along with Din's Fire which...she also had) that now had tons of utility added to it, from neutral to KO's to even a combo move thanks to the new delay on the full charge

[@kimotokirby1601]

I think it's bc in 2 games in a row, was just ''i'm so bad that i will turn into a better character''

[@runningoncylinders3829]

"Luigi can really scare his opponent." My, how the tables turned!

[@ccmonty994]

9:09 dont forget that it didnt stop at ledge so if you used it you would just shoot off

[@anacobra558]

it's carzy how a game with 89 characters (could say more because miis) is one of if not the most well balanced fighting games especially in comparison to it's roster size

[@elmaionesosexo]

of course its going to be if the game limits what you can do

[@genuineangusbeef8697]

Luigi dash attack is also missing the hit box in 64

[@elliotanderson324]

This second channel is so good. Keep up the lists, excited to see the sequel

[@jakec3172]

Speaking of up bs that were bad… Link from smash 64 vs link in ultimate’s up b is insane.

[@Gingerbreadley]

When you look at moves that still suck pls look at ddd forward smash it’s still missing damage values on some of the soft spots which because of their priority it means if you get touched by the whole attack you still take 0% if you are hit by any of the soft spots.

[@GameWheelReal]

I think a tier list like this, but with characters would be really interesting. How the smash team handled some characters in one game to a next is mind-boggling to me.

[@certainpeople159]

this channel is super super underrated. I hope you grow soon

[@newtonthenewt1400]

Luigi's soundtrack from Strikers playing during his part of the video was a nice touch!

[@MockRockTalk]

Mario Strikers Charged has one of the most randomly great OSTs ever released

[@dabluepittoo-aqua4213]

Honestly a major complaint I have about Project M is that it doesn't actually try to improve moves like these, rather replace them so that they're identical to moves other fighters have. Pikachu's Bair is a good example, going from a unique spinning multihit to yet another strong back kick. It just sucks away each fighter's individuality IMO, with Bowser's fire breath even being one of those affected. In Project Plus he got a fireball projectile which I would have understood...if they didn't replace Charizard's fire breath too. Now Bowser has a generic projectile which I don't understand why they didn't just buff fire breath like Ultimate did.

[@jstar3382]

Yeah but also that's a whole hell of a lot of programing and would be difficult for them to do

[@dabluepittoo-aqua4213]

@@jstar3382 Replacing a move seems like more work than just buffing it in many cases, but I'm not a game dev so I don't know what I'm talking about.

[@Netophile]

Im honestly surprised pk freeze wasn't on the list, it bassically had all the same problems as ness' pk flash and then in ultimate, pk freeze became one of his best edge guarding tools

[@Kragglover2003]

to an extent but pk thunder is more consistent, same for bair but yea pk freeze got hella buffed and actually can be used offstage and kill

[@Geneolgia]

Luigi's dash attack was broken since Smash 64, it lacked the last hitbox, most likely an oversight, and it was kept like that in Melee because again probably an oversight.

[@alicon852]

I'd love to see a "worst moves that used to be great" list, because I think there are a lot of really interesting cases of.moves just getting completely gutted inbetween games

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Rest might be a contender. It's still decent, but before Smash 4 it was the terror that defined puff. Smash 4 onwards, it has the dubious honor of being a move that's usually disadvantageous on kill, and often barely functions as a suicide move. Fox's shine post Melee. It's pretty hard to use it as well as in Melee.

[@lucasdellamaggiore]

​@@aprinnyonbreak1290You could use it to air stall in Brawl by spamming it, so it was definitely useful there, even if it was knowhere near as good as in Melee

[@HEHEHE_I_AM_A_MASKED_WARRIA]

The coding error for Luigi's dash attack was in 64, not Melee. The final hitbox just doesn't exist at all in Melee, likely due to the devs thinking the 64 error was deliberate.

[@leftoxfluxinton3388]

An actual move of Pac-man's that also went from garbage to great is his Dair. It was the only move I actively avoided using in smash4 because you would get absolutely nothing out of it but a small amount of damage cause it was impossible to connect all 4 hits on somebody. Then going to Ultimate where it's one of the most oppressive moves to use offstage ledgeguarding and will actually connect all hits

[@miimiiandco]

Mii Gunner's Stealth Burst used to be depressingly slow, but now its really quite fast. If you want to edgeguard without doing anything, this is your move. It also left you in free fall, which is just sad. The amount of times I used this rather than up special is sad.

[@ieatcereal4dinner489]

Always a good day with a MockRock upload, great videos to just rewatch or listen to in the background.

[@seansquiers6506]

Yes

[@jakeoloughlin8381]

So true. I have listened to some of his videos like 5 times

[@seansquiers6506]

@@jakeoloughlin8381 Same

[@AwesomeMooseSmile]

Soaring axe kick is another great example. I went from a mediocre up B to one of the best out of shield options in the game.

[@SkeletonSSBM]

None of this makes sense

[@charKT-7461]

It’s a decent OOS option, but there are certainly many way better up-B’s for that

[@AwesomeMooseSmile]

@@charKT-7461 I mean it's basically cloud's but it kills more consistently and reliably.

[@NiklasGlm]

I'm sooo glad to have a tool like Bowsers' flamebreath on his Kit

[@cjlite0210]

Forget Brawl Tripping, going into freefall after charging a charge move was the WORST mechanic in Smash Glad it's gone now XD

[@Hennu_TRM]

Why is no one talking about Link's remote bomb? That move is now a really good tool with a lot of creative uses while it was mediocre or just bad in every other smash game.

[@Kirby18]

Some other moves that I would put would be: -Ike's Up B -Pikachu's Back Air -Samus Up Air -Wario's Dash Attack -Zelda Down B

[@kimotokirby1601]

Zelda's down-b doesn't count bc in 2 games was just ''oh you are winning, i'll turn into a better character''

[@Kirby18]

@@kimotokirby1601 Yeah that's true. I was mostly referring to the phantom

[@kimotokirby1601]

@@Kirby18 I know, that shit was awful.

[@__gk___]

I have just watched a bunch of your videos bro and I have to say that you speak so so well. Keep up the great work!

[@alabph]

Related to another comment about PT’s glowups from brawl - ult, I think making a list of biggest glow ups in smash would actually be super cool.

[@GabrielTheMagolorMain]

I think Pac-Man's grab is the most interesting. Kind of a sum up of his buffs as a whole

[@JacobSC_]

Kinda shocked that Bowser's down smash wasn't here but no move I see on this list I disagree with so whatever. Maybe for Round 2 it'll pop up

[@robohex6]

Really shocked that Jigglypuff's Sing wasn't mentioned. That move's amazing in Ultimate

[@jokermain6665]

Casual players be like:

[@bobonana8367]

The best use for it is to ledge cancel it but in melee it was actually better for that method since you could infinitely keep putting them to sleep by continually ledge canceling it. That was patched out in later installments thankfully.

[@lostanimeworld11]

If they wanted to give DK a dash kick, they could've just used the DK64 attack.

[@BigGnome]

You mentioning how a lot of your audience never actually played Brawl makes me feel old wtf

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

I still feel like Bowser should have his Neutral-B changed to a fireball based on the "Fire Shot" custom move instead, because besides potentially being more useful it would also differentiate him more from Charizard who basically has a worse version of the same move and simultaneously add a reference to one of his most iconic moves. He's only breathed a solid stream of fire occasionally, but even as far back as the original Super Mario Bros. he's been shooting those fireballs. They could even let you adjust the height of it before it straightens out by tilting up or down during the start-up to let you cover characters with low crouches or the air respectively while referencing how in a lot of his older 2D appearances he'd shoot the fireballs at one of three set heights.

[@HiImAiden]

I love the Christmas lights behind you

[@simeonellinger2064]

Bowser's command grab comes to mind

[@SpeedfreakUK]

Megaman’s fair deserves an honourable mention

[@onlookerofthings6029]

Luigi's dash attack was missing the final hitbox in Smash 64 too, they made the same mistake twice

[@WhitePointerGaming]

Samus' up throw. In previous games it just seemed deliberately coded to just never kill. In Smash 4 you could be standing up the top platform of Battlefield with full rage and the opponent at 200% and it *still* wouldn't kill. Awful, useless move. But in Ultimate it's actually a legit kill throw now which is fantastic and has REALLY helped Samus become a more viable character. Not to mention it actually has a great new animation now. Also on the subject of Samus, she was the ONLY character with a charge move that couldn't charge it in the air! For four games! They FINALLY gave her aerial charging in Ultimate which increased the utility of the move immensely as well as finally giving her access to movement options like b-reversing and wavebouncing. Partial charge shot itself became a combo starter which gives the move much more utility as well, to the point where you almost never want to actually charge it to full anymore.

[@teddypanda9068]

Awesome video. I hope to see more in the future!

[@eonamiella2124]

Just sucks that vine whip just doesn't grab the ledge sometimes

[@qua_xor3348]

Luigi killing women so easily is so baffling to me.

[@Aurora_FGC]

If we are basing this on release ultimate then pichu's ftilt would be up there

[@10types]

Is it just me or does ivy up b always miss the ledge and you just die

[@0yaSumi6908]

Yeah, it has really jank detection. I've learned that it's best to try to use vine whip while next to, not under the stage. If under the stage, vine whip, then quickly switch to charizard and use his extra jump, then up B

[@JMTCorp.]

Even though Robins Arcfire was buffed in an update, i believe it went from a underwhelming move to one of robins best moves in many situations and i find myself able to do alot with it now than ever before, especially shenanigans at ledge

[@jstar3382]

and arcthunder went from a crazy confirm to basically useless

[@ThundagaT2]

@@jstar3382 I miss the old Arcthunder

[@Rean.Schwarzer]

I genuinely can't believe how much that range buff on Arcfire in 6.0.0 improved the move. It's got a lot more application for covering your recovery or as a full stage neutral tool, on top of its absurd combo ability it's always had. Though it is still a really committal attack, especially now that you can just swat away the fireball unlike in Smash 4. Just a shame it came at the cost of gutting Arcthunder. You can still get some stuff off it, but it's way stricter and requires very tight spacing so that you can chase after it, which is a far cry from basically being half of Robin's gameplan in 4, especially with his crazy Down Throw. At least its damage became absolutely monstrous and still a useful neutral tool, but even the buffs to Thoron really don't make up for losing one of Robin's best kill setups.

[@sonickhable]

Man watching smash 4 knock out feel so slow now

[@SJMan2022]

mewtwo side b in the air in sm4sh IS my favorite smash move in the series as flying through the air with a reflector is fun to me

[@st4pps]

Rivals of aether kirby is proof of concept of how creative kirb's moveset could be

[@Jarekthegamingdragon]

It's amusing to see how many buffs PM did first in almost the exact same way...but still better than ultimate. Like dk's da rolling off ledges.

[@RedBoi88]

if there's gonna be a "moves that used to be good but are now bad" list, I would personally put Pac-Man's up-tilt on there. Back in Sm4sh it was a good combo started, but in Ultimate it CANNOT hit anyone on the ground, it's basically an anti air now and it sucks

[@brandongordon4019]

This is always a fun concept to discuss. I think another thing that would be fun to discuss is how someone would change a character if they could, because everyone would (usually) have very different answers, which is really interesting

[@bruszan]

Yeah I agree, in my case I don't like much how characters like puff and roy are in ultimate, but that's something many people can argue about

[@RacingSnails64]

I think Pacman's grab definitely counts as a move. Grabs are part of your moveset after all.

[@amateraceon5202]

I'm going in expecting Arm Rotor from this

[@mordeymay3739]

Wrong

[@Hyperneosonic97]

Another move I think is an honourable mention is Sonic's Homing Attack. In Brawl and Smash 4, the move just straight-up sucked due to way too long start time (Plus _fixed_ start time) and unreliable targetting, plus an awkward amount of power leaving the move unable to start combos or kill, even at full charge. In Ultimate, the move got heavily buffed via being able to be released earlier and better tracking. The fully charged variant of the Homing Attack also gained a lot of kill power, making it a kill move, albeit a somewhat unreliable one, but for Sonic, who struggles to kill, that's still a welcome addition.

[@dc_dachi]

Sonic’s Homing Attack could definitely be on here. Homing Attack was a pretty mediocre move in Brawl/Smash 4 that you saw only occasionally as a landing mix up or for edgeguarding, but it’s now a core tool in his kit. Having its startup and endlag shaved off, combined with better lock on, more damage, and better KB growth allows it to be used as a combo starter, burst option, edgeguarding tool, ledge option, cross-up, and even straight up kill move.

[@Andres183_]

I thought switching pokemon (idk what its called) would show up tbh, if it were faster and in the air it wouldn't have helped ivysaur's up-b but it would've meant you didn't have to use it as much

[@researchinbreeder]

Probably not on the radar when this was in production, but Little Mac's Straight Lunge (Neutral B) seems like a contender nowadays. The move was essentially non-existent in Smash 4, only being used as a shield break punish like a slower, weaker Warlock Punch whose only saving grace was that you could cancel it after nearly a full second. In Ultimate, strong Mac players have begun abusing the various changes. Between games, as well as in a patch, the time before you can cancel the charge was reduced. This gives is mix-up potential, especially since if you *do* throw the minimum charge it actually has some power behind it. The other main charge is that the heavy armor during the charge was improved (again, both between games and in a patch). This makes Neutral B one of Mac's most important tools in some matchups, especially with combo oriented characters like Pikachu, Joker, Sheik, and Mythra running around. As for it's full charge, it seems to kill earlier? That might just be confirmation bias though, since Mac can consistently fish for shield breaks in Ultimate thanks to Down Forward Smash being buffed.

[@elizatindall1519]

I'm surprised you didn't put dark pits silver bow on here. Maybe it wasn't as much of an improvement as some of the others on the list but having less lag, more damage and being a consistent edgeguarding tool is very nice

[@ThouzandWattz]

Wario's dash attack? 👀🤔

[@KanaIzumiya]

"I know most a lot of my audience never actually played Brawl" I don't know why, but that made me feel kinda old.

[@thatoneperson6332]

I'm surprised you didn't talk about Dark Pit's Silver Bow

[@TerryVide0z]

0:57 I always thought it was “PK Thrust” because it sounds like ness is saying PK Thrust

[@DrMd-jr3xt]

This is a cool video! Only thing I have to say is no pichu on this list?

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

Other moves that would’ve made the list IMO is Sonic Homing Attack Pokémon Trainer Down b Palutena auto reticle or any of her specials besides teleport Mario Up smash

[@KingdomHeartsBrawler]

Dedede's Inhale. As a Dedede main, it bugged me how slow and relatively useless his Standard Special was (especially when it came to how he would always swallow things). Combine that with Gordos being reflected by everything and it would seriously mess him up. Come Ultimate, though, Inhale has been made into a move with much-appreciated counter potential. Now Dedede can reflect projectiles instead of automatically swallowing them, giving him a defensive edge.

[@mrmrpineapple6542]

I always knew snakes side b was bad in Brawl but I have the best memories making the rule that my friends and I could only use that move.

[@oliviawallace3636]

Not true on Luigi's dash attack: the coding issue was in 64 where if you change one piece of code the final hitbox appears; the lack of final hitbox was mistakenly believed to be intentional by some of the melee Dev team which is why it ended up how it did in melee, and then it was finally fixed in brawl

[@chefdunsparce4254]

Brawl Pokemon trainer is a life of pain and suffering

[@MittensInc]

I always enjoy watching these types of videos will doing the ironing. Keep up the great work

[@Croove55]

Sing going from "I wish I could disable the game from reading up+ " to potentially useful is an enormous jump

[@Croove55]

Actually, thinking about it again, the funnier part was that the custom variants in sm4sh were somehow so much worse

[@zeckemyro7031]

I'll add Luigi DTilt as an honorable mention because it spent 4 games being pretty much garbage to one of Luigi's most useful tools in Ultimate. I LOVE my DTilt!

[@PomadaGaming]

Luigi dash attack and pokemon trainer down b im expecting

[@renegade6578]

Shulk's manado arts basically went from unreliable items to insane and lethal tools that make him extremely dangerous. Not only can you freely choose the art you want, you can cancel them at any time and select them WHILE in hitstun. Not overhyping him to be like the best character in Ultimate like most people believe I do as a Shulk main, but damn is the improvement a godsend.

[@kevandre]

Highkey I loved Ivysaur in brawl, she was one of my very best ones back then lol. Moreso in PM but in vanilla brawl too

[@Thyfrogcatcher]

In brawl I didnt want ivysaur to be top tier, i just wanted her playable. Ultimate comes along and makes it part of a top tier team to make up for brawl

[@elmaionesosexo]

how do you know its a she?

[@Thyfrogcatcher]

@@elmaionesosexo venusaur has a seed in its flower. If you zoom into ivysaur flower, you will see it has the same seed. Also in brawl in Japan I guess they refer to it as a she in some media, though I personally never seen it, so its hear say. These are the reasons some people believe it is a she

[@elmaionesosexo]

@@Thyfrogcatcher oh ok then, pretty cool