Top 10 WORST Smash Moves (That Used To Be Great)

[@MockRockTalk]

Thanks for watching everyone, and let me know what your list would look like! There are a few moves I'm expecting to see pop up a lot in discussion, some of which I had my reasons for not including. I'll respond to some of the common comments below: *Mario's up tilt:* This move is definitely a lot worse than in Smash 4, but some of its dropoff in use also comes from the nerfs to his down throw, which sends people more horizontally than in Smash 4. Down throw combos were a big part of why up tilt was so notorious. *Corrin's Dragon Lance:* While this move is definitely worse overall, it _did_ get the ability to properly cancel it (a great buff) and still has a lot of other good uses, not enough of a gap for the list imo. *Sheik's forward air:* This one pops up a lot and I'm actually surprised to see it, the Melee variant was certainly ridiculous but it's still a fantastic move in Ultimate. *Insert X throw here:* If I allowed throws, this entire video would just be a bunch of Melee and Brawl throws. *Ike's forward air:* I don't think the gap is big enough, it's still a giant, fairly safe sword arc that's great in neutral and for edgeguarding, it's just worse at killing from the stage. Does that suck? Yes. Do I wish it still hit like a truck? Yes. But it's ultimately mostly the same tool. *Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape:* Yes, I know in Brawl there was a glitch that allowed you to infinitely disappear, but that wasn't legal in competitive play so it's irrelevant to this list, which is based on competitive singles. -Main channel: kzbin.info -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock -TimeBolt affiliate link (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/

[@abbe1255]

I feel like melee Marth’s dash attack doesn’t deserve to be on the list. Yes it has som use in combos but its not that prevalent. Something like melee Marth’s grab or puffs back air would fit better imo

[@IntenseSad]

I definitely think move that could've been included is Wolf Back Air, while the move is still good it went from 90% of Wolf's gameplan in Brawl to mainly a more generic killing and combo finisher bair

[@yolochip4889]

@@IntenseSad The same could be said for Dedede's bair, though it's at least one of his few moves that CAN be safe on shield today.

[@nellerboo]

Rest????

[@Benjawin6671]

What about Smash 64 Falcon Punch?

[@ilyesbelaidi2111]

Can't forget about mario's up tilt. This move used to make you start the game at 40% but now it cant hit even when you are near it.

[@thunderfister7536]

no joke I dropped Mario in ultimate because of this. His up-tilt was so fun to use in smash 4.

[@peregrinehawk8363]

Mario up tilt: here's 40+ damage, oh, you died, here's 40+ damage again.

[@milesweckerle]

Just about to say that

[@randomness9721]

I mean its still fairly decent but yeah the move got nerfed hard lol

[@sixarmedpsycho_9]

@@randomness9721 To the point where I barely use it.

[@jorgecaimanque6951]

Maybe Sakurai meant Wario's punch is meant to give more feeling of impact rather than literal strength? That's what the comically sized fist makes me think

[@CoinBox170]

No he literally meant to make Wario more viable. He said that his new Fsmash didn't force his hurtbox forward like in Brawl, making it better. Needless to say he was trippin

[@TrueBruceTube]

@@CoinBox170Wait I thought he removed trippin

[@flamingpaper7751]

In Smash 4, Ryu's Shoryuken (a frame 6 move) was frame 1-6 fully intangible and was transcendent, and was also less laggy. Smash 4 was also the game where Rage was notoriously overtuned

[@gbx4858]

“Haha you got hit by my frame 2 utilt, now you’re dead at 50%”

[@VB3Pac]

Shoryuken is still a very good move though

[@flamingpaper7751]

@@VB3Pac It's really good now, but it's not a frame 1 combo breaker unchallengable kill move that kills at 60 if you have rage

[@flamingpaper7751]

@@gbx4858 Kind of crazy how Ryu got so many beneficial changes in Ultimate yet his Smash 4 counterpart is still better because they overtuned the few tools he had

[@VB3Pac]

@@flamingpaper7751 Though in Ultimate, he’s a much more fluid character because he actually plays neutral instead of playing like an ape.

[@bokobo6295]

Hearing you talk about smash is really entertaining, so much so that even without a top player perspective, a standard smash ultimate tier list would be interesting! (For me. To watch. Maybe a boring project for you)

[@Choochinc]

Ultimate Marth dash attack is such an immensely awful move. Slow startup, very laggy, and is even harder to tipper than his other moves. Sour spot is so weak that you get punished for hitting it and tipper has zero combo potential and isn't nearly strong enough to compensate for everything mentioned previously. To me, it sits right next to Yoshi egg roll as a move that you just shouldn't use.

[@isuckatnames6033]

"Who's the wet noodle now, huh?" Roy probably

[@ssbplayer8117]

i know i’m late (3 months after the video upload), but here is what i think: it could be good if it was at least a better kill move with tipper, and if the sawer(?) spot was powerful enough so that we don’t get punish every time without it being too rewarding.

[@illford]

@@ssbplayer8117 nah just revert the angle. The angle was very beneficial to Marth and helped his gameplan

[@ssbplayer8117]

@@illfordfor juggles and combos ?

[@ameliabaroni2650]

@@ssbplayer8117 yep

[@dc_dachi]

ZSS down throw was nerfed pretty hard between 4 and Ult. It went from one of her best combo starters into… a pretty worthless throw. Most ZSS players prefer to use f-throw and b-throw now to get positional advantage and start tech chases.

[@Sickmmaner]

Every time I see Marss play he does down throw up smash up air to start a stock AT LEAST TWICE a set. Seems like a free 40% to me.

[@inediblemangoes7797]

@@Sickmmaner That's a di mix up and even then usually not true. But it is somewhat of a 50/50 (kinda as I think floaties can jump out) as to whether they air dodge or not cause then you can punish with nair.

[@kestrel7493]

Throws probably weren't included to avoid a list of chaingrabs

[@jeepers3222]

@@Sickmmaner I’ve never seen him downthrow except to kill with it fit a challenge on elite smash 😭

[@HiImAiden]

Surprised Shiek F-air isn't here. The angle it sends at in Melee gives me nightmares.

[@kestrel7493]

Sure, but it's now a super fast, super safe combo starter and opener for kill confirms. Its still one of sheiks best moves just in a different way

[@ShallBePurified]

Sheik's fair was changed a lot and has a completely different function, but it is a stupid good move at doing the new function it was designed for.

[@dc_dachi]

Sort of like Luigi Fair, I don’t think Sheik’s new fair is a strict down grade. In exchange for it’s kill power, the move is now a phenomenal combo extender and poking tool.

[@beanmaster4680]

I read that as shrek

[@nightey975]

Bruh Sheik’s f-air is very different in the later games. But right now, this move is MINUS 2 ON SHEILD, and is a fantastic & spammable combo tool. I do now know how you considered Sheik’s f-air to be on this list.

[@billybill1270]

One notable limitation to the recovery prowess of melee ganon's wizfoot and sm4sh's dropkick is that they aren't reversible, so if you're launched offstage facing away they're effectively no help to you. Still leagues better than ult wizfoot, mind you.

[@papersonic9941]

Tbf that wouldn't be as big an issue in Ultimate, because you always face the way you got launched.

[@MrGameguyC]

Not really a firm upgrade. Yes Melee aerial ver is better, but Ult has its major pros as mentioned in the video. If it was a combo between those two high points, then yeah much better.

[@inediblemangoes7797]

@@papersonic9941 This one fact is both useful and so infuriating since moves that do barely more than flinch you causes you to turn around so you go from inputting a good backair to a shit fair at times. I wish they put a minimum cap as to what turns you around.

[@Sticker_By_NCT_127]

Easiest trade off of my life

[@SNoodleJuJu]

Shoulder Bash as Wario’s dash attack makes a lot more sense since it is a RUNNING TACKLE. But the giant punch is so slow that it’s just MEH… Good shield break punish though!

[@illford]

Tbf Shoulder Bash in theory should be his Side B in reality

[@ExaltedUriel]

@@illford Project M Wario represent

[@VarsVerum]

This may have been addressed already but is there any particular reason why these videos aren't on the main channel? They have the exact same production value and range of topics :o

[@SSM24_]

He's said in the past that these videos take a lot less time to make than main channel videos, on the order of a few days rather than a few weeks. And I honestly think "the exact same production value" is a little disingenuous - these videos are clearly meant to be somewhat lower-effort, and I think saying that they're the _exact_ same quality as main MockRock videos somewhat undermines the amount of work in production and editing that goes into main-channel videos.

[@MockRockTalk]

Pretty much what SSM24 said, the first part of the AMA I uploaded last month on MockRock covers the philosophy behind MockRockTalk if you'd like more details.

[@VarsVerum]

@@SSM24_ I meant the production value thing as a compliment lol

[@SSM24_]

@@VarsVerum I know, and it certainly wasn't meant to be a knock against these videos - they clearly still have a lot of care put into them. But saying it like that can also easily make it feel like all the extra effort that goes into main-channel videos doesn't matter. I dunno, I'm probably thinking about it too much and either way probably shouldn't be speaking for other people so eh.

[@Casino220]

@@MockRockTalk I actually have seen every video of your main channel since smash 4... but never knew this one existed??

[@TheAntiburglar]

I yearn desperately for the Ganondorf that is truly new and awesome while not knowing exactly what that would look like in the slightest lol. In other news: I like the facial hair :D

[@RealityMasterRogue]

-projectile -float -trident Honestly, dedede is a good starting point; tennis orbs are like gordo, ges got a big weapon that expands at the tip like a hammer...

[@vaderwalks]

I'm torn between desperately wanting a rework for Ganondorf and wanting to leave him alone because he's such a blast to play. That said, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[@TheRedCap30]

@@vaderwalks Maybe give him a stance mechanic?

[@SamuelTheAdept]

maybe just give him an energy ball that you can hit back like tennis but it’s slow so it’s a good spacing tool. Though in my personal opinion Ganon should stay polarizingly low tier like Mac, because if we give them too many strengths… they may become Melee Jigglypuff. Still Ganon should be slightly buffed.

[@OldManTastic]

His normals could stay mostly the same, his specials could use a full rework

[@OrigamiAhsoka]

One more thing to add about peach’s down smash in melee: if you were very close up (close enough to get all the hitboxes to land), it would break a full shield uncharged lmao I also feel like 99% of bayonetta’s moveset could be on here tbh

[@WaveAqualei]

Nair and Upair could be yeah, but the rest of her kit kinda stayed the same

[@OrigamiAhsoka]

@@WaveAqualei Practically everything was nerfed to high hell except maybe like forward tilt

[@WaveAqualei]

@@OrigamiAhsoka her moves have more endlag and landing lag but her damage output and launch angles stayed the same for the most part

[@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764]

@@WaveAqualei would be horrifying if they added her sheik's weaknesses too

[@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764]

@@OrigamiAhsoka kinda, i don't remember well, but couldn't pre patch bayo's fair kill at the center of the stage at high percentage?

[@ameliabaroni2650]

6:47 Fun fact: Fox in Brawl had short hop triple laser that could autocancel in a short hop like in Melee, so it was just as nimble. It was Smash 4 that completely gutted lasers

[@givecamichips]

It's really funny how with Smash 4 Cloud they took Shulk's massive but slow nair and just made it as fast as a normal nair. Marth Dash attack and Roy D-tilt both deserve their upwards knockback angles back, just for some variety. Actually, Roy's jab does a similar thing now as his Melee D-tilt. Mach Tornado is okay as an auto tech chase and lets you escape from some out of shield options.

[@Band36Alt]

The shulk reason probably was because they were running low on space for the game

[@sarasaland4709]

Can we talk about how Wizard’s Foot used to not have the sweet spot ON the foot? My friends and I called it Wizard’s Ankle.

[@lthc_hiryu]

Dedede back air. Used to be one of Dedede's most dominant moves in Brawl, in 4 onwards it's a sluggish worse version of his forward air.

[@randomness9721]

to be fair, thats basically a whole different move from brawl to smash 4

[@cheesebossfinch8071]

Fair point, one correction: forward air is a worse version of back air, not the other way around. Dedede back air reaches farther, hits harder, and is safer on shield than forward air. Fair is a decent edge guarding tool, but as far as neutral is concerned back air is just 100% better.

[@lthc_hiryu]

@@randomness9721 Fair point, but Snake's down smash was covered in the video and that's as different of a "new move" as you can get.

[@lthc_hiryu]

@@cheesebossfinch8071 My bad, I haven't touched Dedede in any serious capacity since Brawl.

[@zestycheese6555]

Actually that’s not that true since d3 fair has faster startup and aerial endlang and you wouldn’t want to stale d3 bair because it’s a great kill move so you shouldn’t use it neutral and instead use nair

[@pika4668]

I didn't know that about ganondorf! it'd be so cool if his down special reset jump, you could do lots of funky stuff with that.

[@anothenblue2630]

IIRC, Falcon's did the same thing. I'm pretty sure it was an oversight, but it made the move far more interesting, still had its fair share of risks (you move down while using it and your ability to gain height even with restored jump was still very limited, so, you're merely stalling your fall rather than actually moving up) and helped the characters with recovery.

[@Sticker_By_NCT_127]

They should have kept it if Ganondorf is a character that canonically flies

[@Ven-zg3fj]

love the vid! in terms of other lists I'd like to see, I would love to see a video of the best move reworks in terms of design. You mentioned Snake's old down smash in this video, which is what gave me the idea. I would love to see a list retrospecting on moves that have gotten largely reworked like that one, ZSS's plasma wire, Shiek/Zelda's down specials, and other moves that have physically changed over iterations of the game.

[@TheGameMan76]

Now this is a great idea

[@Galaxia_EX]

I wish I could move this comment up. Excellent idea.

[@henkiestudios5117]

1:56 You actually made that video now

[@SUMDUMMEH]

I definitely question the decision to have two moves from Fox while leaving witch time as an honorable mention, but nice list and great video man

[@MaxWelton]

I think Falco’s dair used to have no startup, but it’s still a threat and devastating upon the spike sweetspot.

[@lightbrand_]

It used to have a 5 frame startup, be active for 19 frames and spike through all of them, have a massive hitbox and kill super early in melee… it’s not even close

[@wigglytuffenjoyer]

Great list! Although I personally would’ve addressed Jigglypuff’s back air too. Yeah it’s still solid, but compared to the meta-defining spacing and combat tool it once was, a laggy turnaround bair just isn’t as good in comparison

[@bobroctopus2210]

laggy? it's -2

[@randumo24]

I would say that Rest is the one that should be on this list. It went from legitimately terrifying VERY early kill option to so weak that her smash attacks rival its power.

[@Tristan02539]

@@randumo24 i agree. You could literally kill with rest at 0% in melee

[@happymonkeyfish]

Jigglypuff in general is a shadow of their former self, weaker rest that only kills off the top (also doesnt always star KO which sucks) Back air is worse, pound is more situational although its still an okay combo starter. Up throw now goes way too high and basically has no function except to reset to neutral. Down throw is also neutered now even though it seems like it can be a combo starter sometimes but is unreliable

[@sizzledrizzle104]

It really is a shame that they didn't pull from some of the custom moves from Smash 4 when making Ultimate, there were some really cool/great ones.

[@willycheez7218]

They did

[@willycheez7218]

@Roger Loe And Shulk

[@Virtual_Rays]

@Roger Loe His Monado Arts in Ultimate are essentially the Hyper Monado Arts custom move.

[@willycheez7218]

@Roger Loe Ye he just got Hyper Arts

[@goGothitaLOL]

@@willycheez7218only Palutena’s and Mii’s tho

[@givecamichips]

Here's my list of moves that used to be insane that are now just okay: Marth Dair, used to have a spike for the whole animation instead of a single frame. Sheik Fair, just ridiculous angle and hitbox. Ice Climbers Dsmash used to have both of them hit both sides. Roy's Counter used to have the same multiplier as Arsene and sue to the invisible ceiling glitch sent at a very advantageous angle most of the time And Falco lasers, and mentioned in the video.

[@kestrel7493]

Marth dair is still super easy to hit, sheik fair is crazy busted as ever, just different Icies downsmash just used to be better as a sopo when you're lost anyway against a good player Also the crazy inconsistencies of Roy's counter makes it so I wouldn't say its too large of a downgrade

[@goGothitaLOL]

is Pyra's down-air comarable to Marth's melee down-air? sounds familer

[@givecamichips]

@@goGothitaLOL Marth's is better. Every single frame has a spike, instead of 'just' the first half. But yes, that's the closest since Melee Of course, you had to get the tipper, but his tipper is pretty big compared to Ultimate as well. And with universal hitlag higher in Melee, it was easier to combo into.

[@givecamichips]

Sheik's ftilt > fair used to kill Falco at like 50% at ledge

[@bigchunguskeanureeveswhole1143]

@@givecamichips i think the tipper also outprioritised the sourspots

[@AlmightySock]

Gotta say, I'd love a list of like "Top 10 disappointing ultimate changes" where you just go off on the moves or design features that you dislike on a personal level, viability and power be damned.

[@CourageHound]

Slight correction at 6:47 . Fox was still able to cancel his lasers in brawl; letting him get off a lot of free damage much the same way as in melee. In brawl he could even laglessly triple laser in one jump. But yeah, every game after brawl, then he lost that flexibility

[@heliodorable4612]

if ultimate's ganondorf simply had better tools for recovery, such as the old wizard's foot you mentioned, he would be such a more viable character

[@elmaionesosexo]

if Ganondorf was actually Ganondorf and not shitty Cap. Falcon...

[@zombieraddish]

@@elmaionesosexo he was a bad captain falcon in melee and he still was significantly better than he is now. I honestly think part of his design philosophy is to just make him strong and bad, I don't get it.

[@elmaionesosexo]

@@zombieraddish i could get that, but they never seem to go to anything apart from, shitty Cap.Falcon

[@zombieraddish]

@@elmaionesosexo Project M gave him a float mechanic and his backhand reflector from OOT. It was a pretty elegant way of making him stylistically a lot like his actual character. Wish we could have those in addition to the sword stuff he has in ultimate

[@elmaionesosexo]

@@zombieraddish i would've prefeer redisigns for him and Sonic instead of the FP 2 honestly

[@sarasaland4709]

Another good choice is Mario’s up tilt. Infamous in Smash 4. Borderline doesn’t work in Ultimate.

[@realchezboi]

Marth’s DA sour spot should be the scoop and sweet spot be a kill move, think that would be cool

[@milesweckerle]

I'm fairly surprised Corrin's counter isn't on here. Could kill Bowser at 0 with a fully charged forward smash in smash 4, and in ultimate it got nerfed hard

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

True. In ultimate it's practically useless unless MAYBE for a counter juggling option but even then it's risky to go for and down air is easier to land and also autocancels early for a stall and fall making it relatively safe as long as you do it high up, so why not just use that as your counter juggling option. Corrin's counter in ultimate is trash at doing pretty much the only thing counters are widely used for in this game, edgeguarding.

[@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764]

@@JacobPDeIiNoNi It was kinda a dumb nerf, considering the utility of the rest of counters, especially the dlc

[@RoyalKingOliver]

Bruh, it took me a second to figure out what was different over MockRock’s background and then I realized he had not published since December. The red and green bg is back to green and yellow. I miss red but the yellow looks NOICE

[@MockRockTalk]

Ngl, I thought the red looked pretty great as well, but the green/yellow combo is way more on brand!

[@AmaneKoruba]

What. I am SHOCKED that Corrin Side B was not mentioned at all and especially not on the list. I think it’s a bigger actual nerf than a couple of the things on the list. Corrin used to be considered one of the best characters in the game back in Smash 4, but the new one in Ultimate tanked her so much, it just looks janky how little she goes.

[@Canadiansamurai]

How could they nerf my dragon princess???

[@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764]

Yeah, weird how they nerfed Corrin, some of the nerfs were unecesary considering the buffs they give to other characters that counter that...

[@Paraster]

Personally, I always thought Reflector having such an absurd amount of power outside of REFLECTING was kinda dumb anyway, so I have no issue with its nerfs.

[@letsmakeit110]

problem is fox has very little use for a reflector. You'd rather just run and jump around the projectiles and not be stuck in endlag. So either the move needs to be replaced wholesale, buffed significantly so fox can use it, or given some utility aside from reflecting projectiles.

[@peppy619]

@@letsmakeit110 that's true, I wonder, what would you replace the reflector with?

[@dc_dachi]

While Shine was super overtuned in Melee, I don’t necessarily agree with this. I think giving moves multiple purposes is way more interesting and deep than giving a move only one strictly defined use-case. Falco and Wolf in Ult are good examples. Both their shines have useful applications outside of reflecting projectiles without being broken. Fox really doesn’t, and he’s not a character that really needs a dedicated anti-projectile tool in the first place which makes the move a little underwhelming.

[@honathan2135]

@@letsmakeit110 reflector is more of a mixup for projectiles now

[@gloop2701]

I mean to be fair shine is never really used as a reflector in melee except for very niche cases. The main thing making it so good is being able to jump out of it and if you got rid of that it would completely gut the move and the character for that matter

[@Xferno1623]

The great benefit of Fox neutral B is it resets moves going stale so when you take a stock you can spam out 9 lasers in time and the rest of your moves are fresh again which is really good for rushdown

[@kingdedede5570]

you have to hit a move for it to stale

[@MeesterTweester]

I'm surprised Kirby's up tilt didn't make the cut because it was a behemoth in Smash 64, it still works in Ultimate so I guess that's why

[@gameboyn64]

Cloud used up B out of shield for the 9000 time: "I'll stop when you let buffered nair hit a grounded opponent right next to me"

[@wor2xfs250]

Nice haircut Mock looking nice

[@PLAYER42_ready]

What I expected In this vid: META KNIGHT

[@ShinSHOGO]

I’d had mentioned Samus’s Missile/Super Missile from Melee to basically all games after. What used to be one of the best projectiles in the game, could be lagless, came out very fast, and could kill horizontally And now it’s pretty much none of those things, and hasn’t been those things since Brawl.

[@papersonic9941]

On the plus side, Charge Shot got buffed to the fucking moon, and pretty much does Missile's old job. Ultimate Samus with Melee Missiles would be insane.

[@willycheez7218]

@@papersonic9941 She'd legit be like top 10, maybe 5. Already a top tier without it

[@ShinSHOGO]

@@papersonic9941 What baffles me is Mimi Gunner Missiles are super strong, fast, and recover way better than Seamus. While also having a comparable Charge Shot.

[@dyldragon1]

Sheik F-Air. It's still got combo-ability and is definitely not a bad move in Ultimate, but it's an insane move in Melee.

[@kimashitawa8113]

I was suprised when i saw that it wasn't listed. Sheik could kill very consistently with her f-air in previous games and now she can only kill through confirms. That is a massive power-gap.

[@kestrel7493]

Going to just repeat my reply to another comment here: but it's now a super fast, super safe combo starter and opener for kill confirms. Its still one of sheiks best moves just in a different way

[@Cristeve]

Now Zelda is in a higher tier than Sheik, oh, the irony

[@TheDukeOfLukes]

@@Cristeve Sheik is better, and this is coming from a Zelda main.

[@dyldragon1]

@@Cristeve Not true at all

[@ThatGuyThomas]

THAT CUT THO 👏👏

[@letsmakeit110]

problem with run and gun fox is 1.) holy hell does laser have a million frames of endlag now; and 2.) fox lacks anti approach tools. like if you try to dash grab fox he has to run away or jump. He doesn't have a big f-air or dtilt to challenge with. So immobile Fox just loses neutral, and being cornered sucks.

[@brutal_lui]

I like how they changed Mach tornado, as a Meta Knight main. You can combo into it from a ladder if you are close enough to the side blast zone and sometimes in that situation you’ll die if you up b because you won’t be able to make it back. It also can destroy small projectiles(even tho he never had problems with them). Very cool move. *MK B META*

[@shattermelon496]

My problem with it is that it acts nothing like a tornado anymore

[@firestorm3k882]

@@shattermelon496 They should've made it a multi-hit like in Brawl & 4 but made the final hit kill instead of making it just a single hit kill move

[@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764]

@@shattermelon496 it feels so weak without the multi hits, doesn't help it doesn't have enough knockback to compensate it

[@SuperSaga2191]

I'd like to remind everyone that shine is a reflector

[@dreeg1896]

I think one of my favorite smash moments is a Brawl Doubles match where all 4 Meta Knight click Mach Tornado, all using it for a different purpose. One is recovering, one is edge guarding, one is applying pressure, and another is trying to get out of disadvantage. Just goes to show that game was DOMINATED by Mach Tornado.

[@RacingSnails64]

Holy shit, how have I never heard of that melee Ganon down b property?? That sounds awesome!! And funny, Peach's down smash in melee sounds like how people use Bowser's up b 😂

[@kestrel7493]

Yeah, a basic counter hit... but peach down smash can do 60% if the opponent tries to crouch cancel

[@MrGameguyC]

Remember when people said Kirby's Down Air was worse than his Hammer even in the context of his kit? Strange times.

[@perriwinkleiii5361]

Weirdos

[@teeby2037]

Its def not as bad as hammer but its.. really bad.

[@MrGameguyC]

@@teeby2037 Eh. Not conviced.

[@teeby2037]

@@MrGameguyC alright

[@staticchimera44]

Still is lmao.

[@M4RZ1P4N]

Snakes down smash change in ultimate confuses me so much. you're taking a trap/zoner character and taking away one of his best neutral tools that corresponds with his other smash attacks' aesthetics (all heavy military weapons with niche uses) & replacing it with falcon's very simple down smash. why?

[@guacodile2528]

Cuz he already has tones of trapping tools and his new down smash still tie into his moveset very well due to how many setups there are to it

[@willycheez7218]

It's because he's a cool character, which isn't allowed in Ult

[@guacodile2528]

@@willycheez7218bro I know you will say that whenever you can regardless how unrelated it is to the actual conversation

[@willycheez7218]

@@guacodile2528 No you don't, you don't know anything. And am I wrong? They nerfed him on purpose

[@kestrel7493]

@@willycheez7218 yeah, most of snakes kit is worse than it used to be. Maybe because he no longer has a 10 frame jumpsqaut. Melee bowser had 7 frames. Snake lost an entire bowser worth of slow from his jumpsquat, making it as fast as melee fox's. This gives him far more mobility and removes what may have been his biggest weakness. Also they turned side b from borderline useless to a better edgeguarding tool than some entire characters. Snake is still really good, and very cool to watch imo

[@OldManTastic]

I think Arcthunder deserves mention. It used to be the only reason to play as Robin

[@karisasani7006]

13:58 You should've mentioned they basically turned it into its Dreadful Tornado variant from 4 in Ultimate.

[@mordeymay3739]

Samus Dash attack should’ve been at least an honorable mention. What was once a fearsome combo starter became a generic kill move at high %

[@willycheez7218]

It's still broken tho so nah

[@wishbushwashbosh6443]

I think a more accurate title for this video would be Top 10 most NERFED moves in Ultimate. Saying WORST is kinda harsh and inaccurate.

[@plet0707]

To be fair, exaggeration is a good way to be noticed, and he is trying to make living off this stuff. Besides that, this is also a sorta tie-in to a previous video that had a reverse title of this one. I'm not saying you're wrong, I honestly agree with you, I'm just thinking about why he probably did it.

[@wishbushwashbosh6443]

@@plet0707 That does make sense. Although, it’s still technically a step closer to Clickbait.

[@TheGameMan76]

"Top 10 recoveries that should be better" sound great. I can think mac, ganon as obvious ones and maybe some characters like dk even.

[@king_alloy]

All, or at least almost all of these, will be heavies. He's already mentioned in his heavyweight videos multiple times that if heavyweights are trading speed for survivability and power. Having a bad recovery takes away from the design. The biggest offender for me are the Belmonts as they have some pretty canonical insane movement, at least in the case of Richter.

[@unoriginalmoniker2625]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd say Jigglypuff's recovery should be better. As a mostly edgeguard centered character, I don't think Jigglypuff gets enough height.

[@BlitzkriegOmega]

Seeing this gave me a really dumb idea for a Smash Ultimate Mod: *Peak Ultimate*. basically, it would be a mod that would use the absolute best versions of every character's kits. Brawl Metaknight, Smash 4 Bayo, Melee Fox...the list goes on.

[@lightbrand_]

I’m sure it would basically as hard as making an entirely new game… which imo makes it kind of impossible to happen

[@MrGameguyC]

-Mario's Up-Tilt (Sm4sh) -Dedede's Grab (Brawl) -Corrin's Dragon Shot (Sm4sh)

[@kestrel7493]

Mario up tilt is a good point, leads to nothing now and used to be amazing With grabs though you'd just have A list of chsingrabs so I'm glad they're not on the list

[@MrGameguyC]

​@@kestrel7493 I'm not talking about chain grabs. Brawl DDD's grab had really good range and frame data, especially for a super-heavy. It was like a quick tether-grab & one of the best in Smash history. Now in Ult it's just a standard, slow heavyweight grab. Not bad, nor remarkable.

[@Lunch_ROK]

Technically not a move, but ICs’ grab singlehandedly made them top tier in both Melee (before wobbling was banned) and Brawl and while their grab in Ult can still lead to death at 0 under the right hands, it’s significantly harder, especially since the second IC can’t grab anymore

[@davidramsey8525]

loved the video! always exciting to see your uploads

[@oireal7261]

Honestly surprised that Little Mac's KO Punch wasn't mentioned. In the transition, it lost KO power, had it's animation redone which hampered both it's use in combos and as a recovery tool (as well as lead to niche situations where you'd end up off-stage due to his jump), and the speed of the game makes both holding onto it/keeping it extremely difficult. Great vid though!

[@MaxWelton]

Dude. “Shine” is called Reflector. I don’t know where the shine comes from

[@lightbrand_]

Bruh everyone calls it that what’s the point of being a smartass?

[@jangamecuber]

Everyone calls it shine because shine is less generic than reflector

[@griffwilson5932]

Little Mac’s D-tilt used to be awesome in smash 4, as it was one of his best combo tools. Was butchered pretty darn bad in Ultimate. 1: Had less knock-back, making it easier to combo into other moves. Has more knock-back now in ultimate, but is still his weakest tilt attack, and is almost impossible to kill with unless the opponent is at EXTREMELY high percentages, so what’s the point anyway. 2: Had 6 frames less ending lag, making it so that it could not only combo into itself, but gave him several kill confirms and true combos. 3: Sent the opponent straight up instead of at an angle, again, making it easier to combo into other moves without the opponent escaping.

[@littlemacisunderrated412]

Haven’t watched yet, predicting ganon up air Edit: wizard’s foot? Are you kidding me?

[@camusreviews6877]

Kinda surprised that Corrin pin wasn’t on the list. Like wizard foot still a really good move in Ult and it got some buffs, that said in 4 it just shut down the majority of the cast by itself. That move was the Min Min arms of Smash 4, it single-handedly gatekeept so much of the cast and was one of the best neutral tools in the entire game.

[@rouge-ish324]

And oh man did it get gutted. I still have muscle memory of flying across the stage with the kick portion of the move and now it doesn't go nearly as far

[@mitchmediak]

Top 10 underrated/ underused moves

[@darkcoco827]

I’m glad witch time was in this video. If you don’t know Bayo that well witch time is gonna feel useless so you have to really think fast on what to do while it’s in use. Mind you it’s probably one of the riskiest move to use because if it doesn’t land, you’ll get punished for sure

[@roamingtheinternet8652]

Exaclty, it doesn't work when the little flash appears, it's so short, and you'll get punished really really hard for using it. Hell it completely shuts down if used against multi-hit attacks

[@Geneolgia]

Fun fact about Cloud's nair, in Smash4 the hitbox didn't actually cover the whole sword, its huge range came down to Cloud effectively stretching his arm, in Ultimate it was nerfed like the video says by changing the animation so that he awkwardly retracts his arm that way the Buster Sword doesn't reach as far, now, the hitbox still doesn't cover the whole sword so you could say the move is "double nerfed" making it way less effective, if the hitbox was fixed but animation kept as Ultimate's it would be a better move but still nowhere near as amazing as it was in Smash4.

[@DauntlessBlade___]

Melee Ganon could do WHAT!

[@Ridlay_]

You bringing up custom moves was quite interesting, honestly if we ignore the egregious collecting of them it was a sick mechanic and had a lot of good fun, much like RoA’s Abyss Runes (which also happens to have an annoying collection process, albeit less so). Also you forgot to mention Kirby 64 Down Air was a shield breaker too, iirc the down air locks them into shield then you just link into like up tilt and boom, no shield.

[@kyrillgill9112]

New MockRock video goes live, time to scroll through both his channels to see if there is anything else I can watch even though I've seen every video.

[@supmaboy]

Falco has arguably the best actual reflector move in the game? Did I hear that correctly? 9:27 That no invulnerability, one directional, no momentum stall, doesn't even stay on his body (for the metric ton of projectiles that bounce/ curve/ apparate/ come from above/come from below/ boomerang around/ can be controlled/ come diagonally/ are smash attacks/ can circle you/ can be planted in the ground, gets even worse in mid air, smaller than wolf and fox's, with the smallest hitbox you've ever seen, 44 frame commitment with a whole 11 frame unprotected pose at the end? That reflector? *busts head through your computer monitor* ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT

[@Moon-uq6ob]

I would put meta knight’s mach tornado at #2 and put fox’s shine at #1. My reasoning is that you could actually SDI mach tornado towards the center and pop out and take minimal damage. Shine in melee defined fox’s neutral, combo, and kill game though and was probably the best defensive tool in melee. I also think that shine is a more useless move than mach tornado in ultimate since you can still use mach tornado to kill and recover while besides for reflecting, shine has almost all of its utility taken away with the removal of it being jump cancelable besides killing with shine spike really deep offstage.

[@MockRockTalk]

There's no #1, the list isn't ordered

[@Rizzy_K]

I hate the fact that fox hasn’t been able to cancel his laser animation since brawl

[@Jeremonkey90]

I’d say you can also use Mach Tornado as a decent panic option too avoid your opponent when you’re landing.

[@thanatosonpluto5098]

Honestly I am fine with Ganondorf having a bad recovery, what I wish they would have done with wizard's kick is make it projectile invincible so he can close in on zoners easier.

[@ExaltedUriel]

The guy really just needs *some* kind of buff for being so immobile. At least give him Tough Guy armor like Bowser or super armor on more moves than just Warlock Punch and Flame Choke. For being so strong and imposing he feels practically helpless when any moderately fast character easily turns him into combo food.

[@Sticker_By_NCT_127]

He should have an excellent recovery in my opinion, he's literally the heavyweight that canonically flies

[@maxlimit9129]

"In Ultimate I feel like they maybe went too far [nerfing Cloud's nair]" YOU'RE PREACHIN' TO THE CHOIR HERE BUDDY

[@Sabbathfaax]

Clouds finishing touch was nerfed even more imo. It went from a fantastic combo finisher from falling up air and unquestionably THE best move in doubles to basically a slightly better falcon punch you have to charge

[@Sticker_By_NCT_127]

The fact that he's still top tier even with the nerfs show how broken he was

[@Sabbathfaax]

@@Sticker_By_NCT_127 the movement engine, better recovery, and nerfed shields also buffed him to be fair.

[@Sticker_By_NCT_127]

@@Sabbathfaax that's true, but would his sm4sh recovery be better since he had limit more often? (I'm not sure since I don't own Smash 4)

[@Sabbathfaax]

@@Sticker_By_NCT_127 can't always have limit to recover.

[@Sticker_By_NCT_127]

@@Sabbathfaax definitely not all the time, but more often than in ultimate since I believe there wasn't a timer on limit?

[@SketchBookShortFilms]

Something worth noting is systemic changes seriously hurt the usability of Fox's Blaster and shine and Peach's down smash BEFORE direct nerfs were applied. I get some of these systemic changes, though I'll never agree with them, but I'll honestly never miss a mechanic quite like how I miss land canceling projectiles. I would have taken incomparable nerfs to all zoners if using projectiles felt as good in UItimate as it did when playing Samus or the spacies in Melee. Would have been a really cool mechanic to expand on.

[@couldbecharles2607]

You would actually usually want to use back-air out of a meta knight bridge combo because of it's more generous knock back and confirm potential but other than that I was pleased by how in depth the meta knight section was.

[@glob-zt5ci]

11:33 on the topic of moves that deal loads of damage randomly theres smash 64 yoshi dair which deals 56% if you get all the hits (which is not common) and now deals 35 out of a full hop and 28 out of a short hop (with freshness bonus but its almost always fresh)

[@guacodile2528]

It was also frame 4 in smash 64 and frame 16 in ultimate Although in ultimate it gained an Autolink angle which makes the ultimate version connect more reliably (still a big nerf tho)

[@sagacious03]

Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

[@perriwinkleiii5361]

Kirby's down air actually combos into many moves. Jab, down tilt and grab if they end up in front, up tilt if they're behind, and forward tilt for either side. Upwards of 160, comboing down air into forward tilt or up throw on platforms confirms into kills

[@teeby2037]

Dair will never combo into grab with the landing hit. Jab is weak, uptilt doesnt kill confirm outside of weird platform shenanigans. Dtilt is practically useless out of dair. Only good move is Ftilt which is pretty okay. Its an awful combo move.

[@staticchimera44]

To add on, SDI makes comboing with this move way harder, due to Kirby's lack of range. Ftilt is also not a combo out of dair for many characters since dair is only +1 and +2 on heavies.

[@RabanoDoom]

Absolutely blown away that Falco down air isn't on this list

[@curiosityman3704]

6:47 It's not a huge deal, and I assume you didn't know this, but Fox actually *didn't* lose the ability to Cancel the End Lag when landing with Lasers in Brawl. He didn't lose jt until Smash 4. In fact, because of how significantly floatier Brawl was, Fox could actually perform 3 Lasers in on Short Hop, while being essentially lagless. Although it did not go *all the way accross the whole screen* so in that sense it was still *slightly* nerfed compared to its predecessor. Oh and yes, in Smash 64, Fox actually *also* has the ability to cancel Lasers End Lag via landing with it. He essentially had the ability to Short Hop Double Laser in a way akin to Falco's Short Hop Double Laser in Brawl.

[@lightbrand_]

In brawl fox couldn’t alter his drift while using lasers tho, same for falco which I think makes them quite a bit worse

[@curiosityman3704]

@@lightbrand_ I think that does hurt for both Fox & Falco in Brawl, but it's not nearly as huge a nerf as Smash 4 onward where you can't cancel the Lag upon landing anymore.

[@freeformboozler]

I know you said you didn't want too many moves from this era but Puff's nair in Smash 64 was basically Cloud's Smash 4 nair. The hitbox is the size of Ness and has such a huge disjoint that it just immediately cancels out so many other moves.

[@Cristeve]

I disagree with Kirby's Down Air, it is (sadly) one of his few combo tools and it's extremely easy to spike or dump your opponent off-stage with it because of the multi-hit, i also disagree about Peach's Down Smash because it's still an annoying out of shield option that can't be spotdodged However, i agree with Fox's moves, they suck, he definitely deserved the nerfs, balancing a game needs hardly nerfing some characters and now, ironically, there are more Zelda and Bowser players than Fox players lol

[@staticchimera44]

Wdym dair is one of his few combo tools? You can combo better with the rest of Kirby's aerials. Also it's not really that easy to spike with dair if your opponent knows how to stall or recover around you.

[@Cristeve]

@@staticchimera44 But Kirby could also wait until they can't stall anymore, like, literally anyone who wants to spike

[@Teknanam]

But its still way worst than his 64 D-air and its still not a great D-air. Twice as slow and much more inconsistent in everything from spiking, comboing, and pressure. Being on this list doesn't mean the move became bad. It just means they got nerfed hard from where they once stood.

[@staticchimera44]

@@Cristeve Alright then, let's wait until they can't stall anymore. Uh oh... they did an early up b when I wasn't expecting it. See the problem here? The majority of characters in this game can not only freely stall for a decent amount of time, but also recover quickly. The fact that dair is frame 18 also means if a character like Mario simply does DJ up b when he sees that you aren't using dair straight away, your dair WILL NOT come out in time to contest him. You HAVE to dair pre-emptively in order to catch any (quick) immediate recovery, of which there are many. Instead, why not try and go for a bair? Frame 6 and hits far away enough for a successful gimp. Why not try and go for a fair? Frame 10 multihit that covers space for a long time and also does quite good knockback. Why not go for a nair? The strong hit can hit far away while the weak hit can combo or gimp outright. Kirby's dair is simply too exploitable offstage, although I will concede that it is an optimal edge guarding strat against certain characters.

[@Cristeve]

@@staticchimera44 Thanks for the half-bible

[@impreza316]

i don’t think snake should count. it’s a completely different move. also, i think his brawl down smash would be completely OP in ult because of the different ledge mechanics when it comes to trumping and invincibility

[@Teknanam]

Why not. They are both his D-Smashes and one is clearly better than the other.

[@OldManTastic]

That's like saying Zelda down special used to be better

[@acewylden3766]

Really enjoyed this, as I do all of your content. You're very analytical but opinionated as well and you balance that well

[@Zeekfox]

I certainly expected to see Bayonetta somewhere in the video, but I'm surprised there was no mention of her up air. Originally, that was the finisher that basically caused low percent combos to kill, because Bayonetta would have already created so much height through two kicks and two twists. So any move that caused an upwards knockback after that was just ridiculously powerful. The solution ended up being that her up air was given more of a horizontal knockback so that it could retain its damage and hitbox, but wouldn't KO off the top anymore.

[@slukass9631]

Discovered you from Shorts. Thanks for making these videos. Quality content.

[@ohnoesgoes]

Wario's forward smash in brawl was similar to his dash attack in ultimate...I'd say that was the best iteration of the move because of how fast and powerful it was (despite the pitiful range).

[@wilhelmtan5301]

doesn't it have super armor also

[@ohnoesgoes]

@@wilhelmtan5301 yep! Overall a fantastic move

[@ExaltedUriel]

Kind of disagree on Snake's down smash, yeah it's more boring but I personally much prefer its functionality to the landmine. It does decrease Snake's control of the stage but in my experience Snake lacks good, quick kill moves outside of his aerials or up-tilt. F-smash is incredibly slow, up-smash is situational, for my money Ultimate's down-smash is the best in most situations where you can't land up-air, back-air, or up-tilt.

[@artimist0315]

I really wish they bring back the old mach tornado, I know a lot of people didn't like dealing with it, but it made fro a much more fun and interesting character, now it's just one of those pecial not special move I really don't like it.

[@iBenjamin1000]

this is the second video I've seen in as many days, where in talking about peach in a video, the commentator has played music from super princess peach and I'm just caught off guard from someone playing anything from super princess peach

[@10types]

I'm definitely happy that fox's shine isn't what it was in melee. That move was one of the most obvious flaws in the game

[@lightbrand_]

Have you actually played melee?

[@10types]

@@lightbrand_ I've been playing since i was 5

[@Mr__Jack]

Honestly, most of Luma's moves deserve a mention, specifically his Smash 4 gentleman, up air, and down air. These moves all came out ridiculously fast for just how much knockback they did. This is especially prevalent in the case of Up Air where Luma was notorious for taking stocks ridiculously early towards the top blast zone with a single Up Air.

[@dylanwong2939]

I don’t like how Marth Roy Lucina lost the ability to air stall with side B. And I wish Doc’s cape also stalled in the air since it would help his recovery even more

[@hat_n_bow8073]

I have been for the last few weeks going on youtube to look at a new video and now its here

[@actuallynotsteve]

MockRock getting in shape? Nicely done my dude

[@Metalc]

Wdym I thought he was always in decent shape?

[@actuallynotsteve]

@@Metalc Huh, maybe it's the haircut?

[@LilT2o00]

As a Snake main, nerfing his disjoints hurt far more than the downsmash ever could. Up tilt specifically was the biggest L I felt personally that shit used to be massive. It's still good/kills but losing the hitbox and disjoint in it was terrible

[@thepikawott]

Great video! Looking clean af too