The Treaty of Algeron

Star Trek The Next Generation Season 7 Episode 12 The Pegasus

[@Grayfox988]

In reality Worf didn't really give a damn who was in command, he was only waiting for a "please"

[@caveymoley]

PMSL

[@kylepederson9420]

That reminds me of Pulp Fiction where "The Wolf" was instructing them how to clean up the car with the dead body inside. Vince says "A please would be nice..."

[@hmartinspliff]

Fire photon torpedoes, Mr. Worf................... *_PLEASE!!_*

[@robjackson5245]

@@kylepederson9420 Don't mention that dumb movie please. Movie that thinks Nuyoricans and Italians are white with Frank LOpez English accents and that Spaniards are non-white with Latin Englis haccents when it's the opposite.

[@TimmyTurner421]

@@robjackson5245 One of the best movies ever made

[@hancock63]

Starfleet sure has a lot of rogue admirals causing trouble for the Federation.

[@attiepollard7847]

If your not section 31 then these admirals should not be going rogue that much.

[@Maniac536]

I think the writers said there might’ve been something bad in the water over at starfleet command

[@novaiscool1]

@R2 D2 it is the duty of officers to adhere to the law. He had every right to go against the admiral in this case as his actions were criminal, and endangered his ship and crew. Plus if my understanding of military justice is correct the admiral is responsible for the deaths aboard the Pegasus as they were lawfully committing a mutiny.

[@Stinger913]

R2 D2 The NSA spying on American citizens was a legal secret until it was blown. Same with the Pentagon Papers. Should they have not been exposed for our benefit? Legal or illegal?

[@jamescarter5042]

That's why Picard never got promoted to Admiral. he would never become a rogue.

[@tentringer4065]

The look of realisation of Picard's face when Riker says 'cloaking device' is just top notch acting from Patrick Stewart.

[@jordanmicahcook]

I’ve never seen anything less from him, he was the best actor on this show, with Brent being a close second. But honestly this show was filled with high quality actors, which is one of the biggest reasons it became the legendary classic it is.

[@kielmeakin4901]

J Cook clearly not watched the new show then

[@juliankanar387]

@@kielmeakin4901 Data was still Data...Riker was still Riker in all of his glory. But Patrick Stewart's addons ruined a lot of Picard's parts. Just like in Nemesis.

[@makasete30]

Mikhail Feofilov I’m waiting for Q to turn up and say it was all because he let Rafi call him J.L, and mocks him because admiral Clancy tells him to shut the fuck up, twice. Picard says he never wants to become that loser, Then Q snaps his fingers and we get a better series.

[@theenglishalpinist5031]

@@jordanmicahcook You're dead right. Some episodes were decidedly feeble in plot and sci-fi ideas, but the acting saves those episodes. This one however was a good episode in every way!

[@Glitcher2000]

In the words of Isaac Asimov, "Everyone knows that no treaty has ever been kept once it begins to work against the national interests of the more powerful signatory."

[@ryans756]

Thankfully, as thought-provoking as that might be, it's also not true. Treaties are often signed IN SPITE of being against the national interests of one signatory, for the greater good. I mean, the entire European Union, while not officially "a treaty" is exactly that.

[@Azrael1486]

​@@ryans756notice Brexit and other countries trending to do the same. Because the nonstop immigration is hurting the interest of their countries. Now they're pulling out

[@TheMelnTeam]

@@ryans756 Treaties that are signed that way are *usually* signed as a tradeoff. It's not quite accurate (in most cases) to say it's against national interests, but rather than on balance, the signatory evaluates the outcome of signing the treaty to be favorable compared to not signing it. If you're getting more important national interests served, you can reasonably opt to cut lower priorities.

[@Spearca]

​@@Azrael1486Brexit has been a disaster for the UK in several ways. The country is poorer with the loss of trade. Losing EU resident workers has undercut healthcare. UK voters now say (by a margin of about 5-3) that Brexit was a mistake.

[@johndoeboston123]

Asimov was talking about treaties between hostile nations. A better way to phrase it might be, "Peace treaties only work as long as the opponents stay roughly equal." The EU is more like an alliance. It is a trade and regulatory convention between friendly states with shared interests, which is quite different.

[@hfar_in_the_sky]

*The real reason for the The Treaty of Algeron* Romulans: "Look, being 'the race with cloaking technology' is one of the only things that sets us apart in this franchise. And it's bad enough that we have to share it with the Klingons. We're keeping our hat and you're not getting it."

[@therearefourlights6926]

Probably. Honestly no sane person would agree to this unless they lost the war and this was a concession. Star Fleet is so bad at defense it's depressing. They would probably pick Mon Mothma to be in charge... Do you remember that Picard's first act as captain of the Enterprise was to surrender the ship to the first race he encountered (yes it was Q but he didn't know that). He also wanted to surrender to the Ferengi the first time he met them... and this is the Federation's Flag ship! They go down from there.

[@swishfish8858]

Even then, the Klingons only have it because of a script error in Star Trek III. Kruge's ship was intended to be a stolen Romulan ship but it became a Klingon ship somewhere in translation.

[@emileroberge9459]

There are Four Lights The enterprise isn’t a military ship but a scientific/exploration vessel, the lives on board are more important than beating the ferengi.

[@therearefourlights6926]

@@emileroberge9459 She's both, a science ship and military ship. At that point in time she was the most powerful and technologically advance ship the Federation had. Their flagship. And if handing all that over to an unknown advisary is seen by them as no big deal it only serves to point out how bad Starfleet was at the military role. If Starfleet wanted to focus solely on science and diplomacy that would be fine, IF they had a force dedicated to actually defending the Federation. They don't, Starfleet is all they have. Yes the lives of the crew are important, but are they more important than keeping the Federation safe from potential enemies? An enemy would study their ship and learn its weaknesses to use against the rest of the fleet in a war.

[@jsnrvst]

190 countries on Earth have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Fewer than 10 of these have nuclear weapons, everyone else has agreed not to develop them. Was that stupid? Was that "being bad at defense"?

[@KOBUN40]

Geordi will know what to do with the device. After all, he spent a whole episode invisible like that.

[@Coolman13355]

If I remember correctly this was before Ro went Maquis. Imagine him filling her in.

[@jaco5187]

I love how Data looked at Worf to see if he'll follow the Admiral's orders.

[@lisasimmons5362]

Me, too. Astounding moment in the episode.

[@shandorunia]

The bit that I find funny is how Riker raises his eye brows when Pressman says he is taking command. It's like an "oh really, thats interesting" sarcastic sort of look. Whilst Picard says nothing lets the scenario unfold in full confidence and then once its sorted he just picks up the conversation like nothing happened. Subtle detail done to show that nobody was ever going to revolt against Picard... And he knew it.

[@iami3rian394]

Worf's face..thet msm thought he had any pull on the bridge.

[@andrewwilmshurst2793]

I love Data's face at 1:10. It's like he's about to say 'I'm sorry, but you just broke a fundamental law of the federation. What makes you think anyone is going to obey your orders?'

[@davidhabert]

I like how Admiral Pressman said to Commander Riker after he reveals the cloaking device to Captain Picard "You've just ended your career Will". The only thing I can say to that is, Wrong mate Commander Riker has just ended yours.

[@Foxhound3857]

Will just saved his career, and his conscience. There's a good reason he made Captain himself.

[@davidhabert]

@@Foxhound3857 I totally agree with you. 100%

[@2centschange]

Not to get too political, but the admiral is a lot like trump. He got away with something he wasn't supposed to so thinks he can get away with anything just by throwing his rank around. Didn't work well for him (and hopefully won't for Trump).

[@davidhabert]

@@2centschange if you're looking at it from that point of view. I also agree with you.

[@l337pwnage]

What the hell are they on about? That's not a "cloaking device", it's an interphasic travel adapter. They aren't "cloaked" in normal phase, they just aren't there to be seen. Easy breezy, no treaty violation. Just like when they took in those Romulan POW's, oops, I mean "disarmed combatants".

[@KingoftheJuice18]

Those treaties have a lot of subclauses. I'm sure that's covered.

[@stephandolby]

Presumably, anything that renders a vessel undetectable on sensors as well as visually would be in violation. Disguising a vessel and its occupants as something else, however, doesn't appear to be an issue, though that's likely through a combination of masking/faking sensor readings ("nobody here but us Koberians").

[@shindean]

That's a loop hole with the same result of using the device for nefarious means of cloaking. Unlike our society, these people are smart enough to prevent loose wording and exploitation of the law.

[@stephandolby]

Well, one renders a ship invisible to everything, the other changes what it is detected as. It's likely that the latter would be seen as being against the spirit of such a treaty rather than a flagrant breach.

[@Slixer]

one thing I noticed is that it's only wrong if Picard doesn't back it.

[@Syndicalism]

As punishment for the admiral, he was exiled to some mysterious island on Earth and given a new identity of "John Locke". His disappearance was covered with some story saying the plane he was on crashed in the ocean.

[@philippebarillecavalier9275]

Never realized, it's him! Well done.

[@metal87power]

he was sent to the past that's why he was so cranky towards other passengers

[@joshuawells835]

While the Federation may have made an error in not utilizing cloaking technology widely adapted by the Romulans and Klingons, Starfleet has pretty much been the pioneers of how to detect cloaked ships anyway.

[@benjaminoechsli1941]

Yup, and people have pointed out that they're so darn _good_ at detecting cloaked ships because they've had this disadvantage for so long. Imagine what they could do if they got cloaked vessels _now,_ especially ones that phase through solid matter!

[@metal87power]

space is wide and empty. what's the point? @@benjaminoechsli1941

[@TheRaven5005]

Lol Worf simply folding his arms is basically him gesturing "fuck you" to the admiral. Hahahahahahahahahahaha

[@MrDibara]

@Leo Peridot I guess that shows how different our modern society and the utopical Federation society really are. And their culture too, since I'm pretty sure we are much more synical and realistic then the people raised in the Federation's society. _(not that individuals like Pressman wouldn't exist, but unlike in our world, they would be the minority in that world)_

[@girlgarde]

Yeah, Worf's loyal to Picard and is going to take his side over some rogue admiral. While Worf may agree that the Federation should be allowed to use cloaking devices to counter the Romulans, he isn't going to take part in breaking the law to do so and will side with Picard to uphold Federation law.

[@ricksimon9867]

"Mr Data?" "Bitch, what do you want from me? I just heard about this device for the first time like ten seconds ago!"

[@sabiondo1629]

I love how confident Data is that the phase/cloaking device can be integrated with the Enterprise despite not seeing or studying it yet. Never misses a chance to say theoretically.

[@MrDibara]

Well, I wouldn't say "confident". I'd say Data was just stating a fact. Until further analysis to determine more, the device _can in theory_ be implemented to the Enterprise if it was able to be implemented on the Pegasus. But that's why he said "theoretically", because he couldn't have any actual certainty until he analyzed the device himself. _(well, with LaForge's help too, of course)_

[@sabiondo1629]

@@MrDibara The way he used theoretically was weak. New never before seen tech. Add to the fact that it's been lying around unused. A good response would have been. "I would need to analyse the device before I can decide if this theoretically would even come close to working." Hell but theoretically I can upload a Window virus to some unknown alien operating system.

[@MrDibara]

@@sabiondo1629 I don't think it is so baseless as you make it sound like. The device had already been used on the Pegasus, which despite its malfunctions _did_ make the ship phase through an entire asteroid. And the Pegasus is no alien ship with unknown systems. It is an Oberth-class Federation ship, with systems that might be very similar to the Enterprise's Galaxy-class ones, only more outdated. So with all that in consideration, it's not unreasonable for Data to say that it is theoretically possible. It somewhat worked with the Pegasus, despite the malfunction. So with a lot more care and study, it should theoretically also work on the Enterprise to 100% if analyzed correctly. Again, *theoretically.* It is not a word he simply threw out for habit, there was a basis for its possibility: the semi-success on the Pegasus.

[@MMuraseofSandvich]

1:15 You know your attempt to commandeer the _Enterprise_ is doomed when Worf folds his arms.

[@jeffclark1129]

In one private scene between Commander Riker and Captain Picard, when Riker is asked why Admiral Pressman is looking for the Pegasus 12 years later, Riket says "I've said all I can, sir." Picard had a sixth sense about his Commanding Officer and he was essentially correct. Riker may have been aboard the Pegasus during this incident which killed the crew, but Picard knew his "Number One" would not DELIBERATELY betray the Captain, the Enterprise crew for Admiral Pressman's benefit.

[@jrvthatsme]

Kahless himself might have a slim change of getting Worf to act against Picard, but there's no way anyone else could.

[@MRJK87.]

The only time he went against him was when he suspected he wasn't Picard.

[@KABZProductions]

Sisko could. Too bad he wasn’t in first contact.

[@stephenjenkins3995]

@@KABZProductions It would completely depend on what,the disagreement would be. Worf is scared of Sisko but he respect Picard tho most I'd say.

[@cgyphan3uf]

Q could make him strip naked and dance around the bridge

[@williamsweeney3215]

@@stephenjenkins3995worf isn’t afraid of anyone but holds certain individuals in higher regard than others. Afraid? No. Respects? Yes.

[@paladinr3016]

"ITS ILLEGAL AND VIOLATES A TREATY THE FEDERATION SIGNED IN GOOD FAITH......how do we use it?"

[@josephmassaro]

Yes, but they got roped into their current predicament due to duplicitous motives. Do you think Picard would have agreed to these orders if he knew the truth? No, he'd be make a lot of noise that would bring unwanted attention.

[@russell2952]

If you're going to ask someone to take the captain into custody start with Data. There's a teeny tiny chance that he'd do it. Worf, on the other hand, wouldn't do it with a gun to his head.

[@charleskuckel3173]

Picard is correct in stating that the treaty was signed by The Federation in good faith. In the military, there's NO pick and choose which regulations or which treaties you want to obey! However, the Admiral is ALSO correct when he asserts The Federation gave up a strategic point when it agreed to this. I'm surprised that he DIDN'T mention ALL of the violations the Romulans had made EVEN after the peace treaty was signed. NO two wrongs DON'T make a right. I'm NOT justifying the covert operations either NO matter how necessary they were. However The Federation was being penalized for following the letter of the law!

[@robvanriot]

"Data, is this possible?" "Fuck me Captain, I haven't even seen it yet. What am I supposed to base this hypothesis on? Wild guess? Yeah, fuck it, why not. Let's give it a crack."

[@waltobringer2928]

Anyone who has ever been in the military can tell you the you don't get to pick and choose what rule or law to follow and what to toss aside. Picard was correct.

[@Revkor]

correct only because of a flawed treaty. one which the Romulans have been willing to break

[@az21bob666]

there are a lot of treaty I dont like, BUT you break one, other countruy will not trust you, and for start trek, they might have 100,000 treaty with worlds, if they find out you broke one, you have milllion of plants pulling out of the federation.

[@Revkor]

@@az21bob666 I go on the point that treaty should not exist. a foolish move by the feds.

[@Sigurther]

Also, disobeying an unlawful order is pretty much a given, especially one that stands to start a devastating war.

[@Revkor]

@@Sigurther yes but poor Riker was fresh out of the academy which ill trained him. my core issue is that the teat should not exist

[@duranfanvr882]

Definitely one of my favorite episodes of TNG, so many great moments in this one!

[@macklee6837]

"You've just ended your career, Will" I love that line

[@06bigd2000]

It was demonstrated in the earlier episode ‘The Defector’ that the Federation had an advantage due to their alliance with the Klingons. Pressman broke the law was simply trying to excuse himself.

[@walterdayrit675]

I guess that admiral kind of LOST his way?

[@magonus195]

Yeah he really couldn't LOCKE it down.

[@alexanderg1935]

Boooo. Get off the stage!

[@half-lifescientist1991]

Walter Dayrit Even having not seen Lost in years, about a few minutes into the episode suddenly my brain was like "WAIT A MINUTE..."

[@charlesaguilar1708]

He picked the wrong crew to do his secret "dirty work" and retrieve the device from the Pegasus.

[@kbanghart]

"don't tell me what I can't do!"

[@iago318]

1:09 Riker's look when Pressman says he's taking command of the ship xD

[@Free.Spirit.Rebel.]

"is that so? " look is classic

[@Oceanic2409]

"I subscribed to this channel in GOOD faith!"

[@Oceanic2409]

this channel wasn't good... ITS BLOODY GREAT! DO MORE

[@mikeb53]

Treaty of Algeron: The Federation will not have ships that can cloak. USS Defiant: And I took that personally!

[@JnEricsonx]

Well, that's why they had a Romulan aide on there.

[@ArmyJames]

Pressman looks more like an insurance broker than a Starfleet admiral.

[@Foebane72]

1:55 Love the musical homage to V: The Final Battle near the end, there! Same composer, of course he would reference his earlier work!

[@lamueldagon7618]

Yes absolutely, i loved V so much. Xxx

[@Edwards-Videos]

1:17 Mr. Worf crossing his arms. In other words, 'Admiral, you're a fool1'

[@fantasymeditationandsleeps5341]

I absolutely love that the close captions calls it the Treaty of Al Jarreau!😀

[@over50gamer]

I love how Worf says NOPE at 1:15

[@paulaldo9413]

Yeah, and not saying anything that would've gone on record.

[@zerg9523]

This is the best comment section ever - people talking about the politics of star trek more than actual politics... finally, ive found my people.

[@scottgurstein]

Braaaahahhaaahaa!!! That's because what used to be "actual politics" years ago is now just made up propaganda and fake news.

[@kbanghart]

@@scottgurstein propaganda has always been around

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

@@kbanghart Greek propaganda was so good, many actually believe the Battle of Thermopylae was just 300 Spartans holding off the entire Persian army millennia later.

[@kbanghart]

@@DrewPicklesTheDark or just like to enjoy it as a historical fantasy.

[@TimmyTurner421]

@@DrewPicklesTheDark Maybe it happened

[@Mark73]

That's the best that Worf has ever looked when he wasn't kicking ass.

[@shadowkill546]

The treaty was the correct choice, since it lead to non-hostilities, which in turn could be used to built an actual relationship with the Romulans. People are saying the Admiral was correct, but that's shortsighted. Perhaps, without that treaty, the federation would not have achieved the level of security it's at now. Overall, the goal of the federation is not domination, but peace and security. It's better to achieve that without conflict.

[@robertmoore6149]

One also has to wonder the price the Romulans had to pay to get that. Both sides get peace, yes. But the Federation certainly would have extracted something in return.

[@Suisfonia]

While a good idea yes, it is also a good idea to develop said tech on the side - since you know that peace will not last forever. That way there when the treaty is eventually broken by the other-side, you have the tech needed to combat the coming threat.

[@robertmoore6149]

@@Suisfonia The other thing that needs bearing in mind is that the Kitomer Accords was signed 19 years prior to this treaty. So maybe the Federation could get their hands on Klingon tech? Or buy it off the Ferengi? Or simply make knock off copies they captured? Lots of possibilities.

[@Suisfonia]

@@robertmoore6149 That is very true, while I doubt that the main federation would do it, I'm thinking more Section 31 would get their hands on such things since they fall outside of Federation Law.

[@BHRamsay]

This comment has ironic meaning in light of the first few episodes of Picard. Romulan reaction and perhaps over reaction to federation technology is a backbone of the series storyline

[@iliakatster]

Just realized, they're in an asteroid. If the structure of the chasm falls apart (in microgravity, somehow) there's not nearly enough gravity to cause a "collapse", more likely the asteroid will break apart into pieces that would end up just floating away from each other.

[@Regfife]

And possibly into the Enterprise. It's true that a collapse wouldn't mean debris falling "down" in this case, but they couldn't predict how it would come apart, which is the real danger.

[@MrDibara]

@@Regfife _Yeah, there's only so much physical mass that those shields can protect the Enterprise from._ And that's a *biiiiig* asteroid they're in. :\

[@sarcasticguy4311]

Shields are also down inside the asteroid and activating them would be a serious problem for the area around them.

[@claymenefee6999]

"You just ended your career" Remind me again what Rikers rank is in Star Trek Picard. Lol

[@harmonbrentdm]

Captain

[@jesse_cole]

Admiral: "Can't you see the potential?? We NEED to be using this device!" Picard: "No! This is against all our dearest principles!" Riker: "So, I think we can use this thing..." Picard: "Yes, of course, make it so."

[@danielmaster8776]

Worf simply crossing his arms in response got a laugh out of me.

[@jasongooden917]

A phase cloak would make a ship invincible to torpedoes

[@latinoguy483]

The romulan commanders face when the enterprise decloaked in front of them must have been an oh shit moment. Sela said it best "humans have a way of showing up when you least expect them" even sela knew how dangerous humans can be. Fortunately for the rest of the aliens in star trek the federation envoked rules to restrict ourselves or handicap depending on your view from us becoming to aggresive and powerful.

[@spaceidiot200]

for real though, a matter phasing cloaking device sounds OP as all hell

[@springtrapstarwar5557]

I have to agree with the admiral. The treaty was a mistake. It forbid the federation to build clocking device.

[@cid2852]

Really seems to me like Pressman was just a scapegoat here anyway. Yes, he was captain of the ship where the experiments were taking place, and he obviously believed in the cause and all (not to mention the whole mutiny thing, how most of his crew got killed, etc), but Starfleet Intelligence knew exactly what was going on the whole time. It's not like Pressman was acting alone. A lot of Starfleet bigwigs were involved. I think that was one reason Picard wanted to intentionally decloak in front of the Romulans, because it otherwise might've been his ass (and probably at least Riker's ass as well) if Starfleet managed to keep everything under wraps. The only other option Picard had to get out of the asteroid was to accept "help" from the Romulans. Which meant Picard and the entire crew would've had to abandon the Enterprise (in which case the Romulans could've captured not only it but whatever they salvaged from Pegasus as well), get hauled off to Romulus as "guests" for a while, and probably anal probed or mind conditioned or something before they got to go back home.

[@IronicHavoc]

You should still disclose that you're violating the treaty then.

[@kellyberry]

Dude Starfleet is allowed to build clocks so they can tell time unless the Romulans hate clocks its Cloaking they dont want starfleet building

[@faytneris]

Same thing happened later when they got Voyagers ablative armor and transphasic torpedoes but due to some stupid treaties they never used it !! ... how could you sign away your most powerful defences? ...

[@terrythompson7535]

The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. No good people should ever limit their defense capabilities.. I can't possibly see what benefit would be so great to trade for that they would hamstring themselves.

[@Cherrie549]

Of course first person to give suggestions is Worf and he’s instantly shut down

[@calebjanus2000]

That was always hilarious.

[@ryans756]

That's because his suggestions are usually the standard Klingon notion of "Well why don't we try shooting it?" :) There's more to life than shooting things, Lieutenant. Now, Mr Data...

[@Sigurther]

I mean, the Federation could have just developed the phasing device, that still would've given them a huge tactical advantage over the klingons and romulans. Imagine whole fleets of phased ships just running through defensive lines and obliterating enemy installations, or phased torpedoes traveling through shield and ship, de-phasing and then detonating. It would have been brutal.

[@porksterbob]

The issue is that arms races rarely stay one sided. When the us developed atomic weapons, the war department thought that the Soviets were a decade behind and that nuclear weapons required strategic bombers to drop them. The Soviets exploded their first bomb only 3 years later in 1948. The first functioning ICBM was developed in 1957. The federation was able to deal with the cloaks of the romulans and the Klingons. In canon, the romulans have fought the Klingons repeatedly. There's no reason to think that the romulans wouldn't be able to use similar counter measures for cloaked federation ships.

[@therearefourlights6926]

I think the cloaking effect is directly linked to the matter phasing, so you couldn't matter phase without 'cloaking' it. Basically the sensors scans pass through the ship the same as matter does, rendering it invisible as a by product.

[@readermike8355]

They do, this is the basis for the tech behind Voyager's transphasic torpedoes

[@Neo-vz8nh]

But the Fed do not want war. They dont like to use force.

[@swishfish8858]

Exactly what porksterbob said. Do you seriously think that Starfleet would be phasing past enemy lines and detonating invisible torpedos for more than a year or so before the Romulans either totally counter that technology or push their own offensive research to a point that decimates Sector 001 before Starfleet Intelligence even knows where the first warbird came from?

[@McCaler]

That does raise a good question. Klingons have cloaking technology and so do the Romulans. Why not the Federation?

[@Cailus3542]

McKellar Politics, probably. Romulan and Federation diplomats compromised. The Federation gave up cloaking technology and in return, they probably got some substantial concessions from the Romulans. Starfleet (especially the more militant folks) would’ve hated losing such a crucial capacity, but they got overruled.

[@novaiscool1]

Old fan theory is that Klingons traded some weapons tek and some ships to the Romulans in exchange for cloaking devices.

[@AdmiralKarelia]

@@novaiscool1 Romulans gave the cloaking technology, Klingons gave the designs for the D7 battlecruiser, which was far and away superior to the Romulan Bird of Prey.

[@saadqureshi7127]

Defiant was the only ship to have one. But was shared by the romulans. This phasing technology could have saved so many lives in the Dominion war.

[@jcb3933]

That also means that they get to develop better sensors to detect the cloaks. Didn’t they have gravitic sensor grids around their border in order to detect cloaked vessels?

[@LTDANMAN44]

that treaty has kept us in peace for 60 years!

[@johndoeboston123]

..... said Denmark in 1939

[@max__pain]

It's amazing the Federation survived as long as it did with stupid agreements like that

[@josephmassaro]

On the contrary. Lets assume the Federation didn't sign the treaty. Do you suppose the Romulans would simply sit by and watch the Federation level the playing field? They would be pressured to develop even more advanced weapons or even mount an invasion before the Federation had a working device they could employ aboard all starships. The Federation ceded an advantage to the Romulans, but it also relieved a need for the Romulans to escalate.

[@Revkor]

@@josephmassaro Rommulans can't do much. especially with the Klingons siding with the feds

[@josephmassaro]

@@Revkor That's assuming the Klingon/Fed alliance was formed before the Treaty of Algeron. It wasn't The treaty was made in 2311 which precedes the Klingon/Fed alliance which occurred after the betrayal of the Klingons by the Romulans in 2344 and the subsequent loss of the Enterprise-C defending Klingon ships.

[@Revkor]

@@josephmassaro which makes the treaty even more stupid.

[@josephmassaro]

@@Revkor You're not really making an argument by saying it's stupid. Give me reasons, sir.

[@airliner7478]

Captain Picard is one of the few people I've ever seen on TV challenge his superior to his face when said superior does something wrong... Most people would be too scared of "pissing off the boss" to say anything.

[@steelsith2579]

I really would’ve liked a follow up episode on this

[@rarevhsuploads4995]

If you watch the last episode of Star Trek: Enterprise it sort of expands on this episode.

[@atkin207]

I wonder if this is how Section 31 got around.

[@MRJK87.]

Without a doubt

[@skynetprime82]

So that would mean that the admiral himself (and riker inadvertently) was a member of section 31

[@robertmoore6149]

In Enterprise, Agent Harris talks about how it isnamed after Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter. So goes back right from the very very beginning. Before the events in Enterprise even.

[@aidanwow1593]

It would make sense given how Sloan seems to appear and vanish. Either a personal cloak or he is beamed to a ship using the cloak.

[@alexio1942]

​@@aidanwow1593 a lot of star trek is derived or inspired by actual events in human history just altered enough to make it 'new and entertaining' star trek is pretty much a show about human history

[@originalbadboy32]

1:11 - Love data's expression - its like 'oh shits just got real! - wheres my popcorn!'

[@Cjnw]

Normie

[@healthandsurvival4461]

I love the year of your clip!!

[@ZzCanonBull]

Starfleet engineering is the best. No half assing it! *Engineer:* I mean, yeah we could make a cloaking device. Anyone can do that. Just hear me out....PHASE CLOAKING!!!

[@ClarinoI]

I just realised, with the destruction of the Romulan Empire, the treaty of Algeron is no longer valid, so in Star Trek Picard this technology could be seen on Federation star ships.

[@scottgurstein]

We have a lot of episodes ahead of us to see if this turns out to be true.

[@rjframe4410]

in star trek online you see the federation with alot more access to cloaks, but most of the time they don't use them, there are many ways to detect a cloaked vessel in the STO universe, but also in STO the romulans made a new empire, and started over after hobus. Theres a ship you can get with this very cloak on it.

[@ClarinoI]

@@rjframe4410 STO isn't canon. Besides, I'd expect the engineering division of Starfleet could come up with a variety of ways to counteract detection methods. We'll have to wait for the second season of Picard to see.

[@tylermills79]

As of the last episode of the first season of Picard the treaty is still in effect. The federation claims the android planet in accordance with the treaty of algeron and places it under the protection of Star fleet.

[@christianfreedom-seeker934]

The Romulan Empire was destroyed for the “reset” which I think was a bad plot decision IMO!!

[@svensorensen7693]

Phase cloak is one of the coolest ideas in Star Trek and they never went anywhere with it.

[@jcb3933]

The ability to phase is a powerful enough weapon. They didn’t need the ability to cloak.

[@jonathonbartos3061]

I feel the cloak just naturally happens with the phasing tech. You can't have the phasing without the cloaking effect.

[@austinfaust3374]

Data: Hmm yes adapting a prototype device to arrange the matter of our entire spaceship to be incorporeal should take a few hours Sir. Picard: Make it so.

[@micheljavert5923]

The writers of TNG and TOS do a really great thing here with the show's universe. Starfleet is chock full of great and excellent professionals but that doesn't mean that every man jack one of them are necessarily good people (which is a condition forced by the demands of narrative storytelling). You could argue all day about the moral, ethical, and practical reasons for violating and upholding the Treaty of Algernon. But at the end of the day, the Admiral just isn't a good officer or person. What has always made Star Trek such a good series over the years is that it depicts a organization that has trained its people to recognize when someone shouldn't be in charge of a paper bag, let alone a starship in the middle of a deadly crisis. That is to say: Great and excellent professionals that are good people.

[@szahmad2416]

Thanks. In reality, it's often very hard to figure out who's who. If the admiral had some situational awareness, he'd adopt the tone, posture and language of Picard instead of being an ass. But that's the other thing about being a presumptuous arrogant prick from a bygone era: you kind of lose touch with actual reality and how to influence people.

[@kellyberry]

Riker's Starfleet Friends helped him stay out of Jail because he came clean and told the truth while Admiral Pressman did not come clean Im guessing he losy his Admiral rank Jail Time Probably I noticed that When Picard went to get Riker out of the Holding Cell Admiral Pressman wasn't seen in the other cell maybe he was confined to Quarters under guard?

[@Sigurther]

Nah, Federation was pretty similar to modern day militsry, and the writers made that clear. He probably got assigned to a desk job pending early retirement and the whole thing was brushed under the rug after some tense explanations to the romulans. I suspect they were too busy dealing with the impending supernova of the star near Romulos to get too upset over it.

[@phoenix20401]

my guess is picard would have also called in a few favors as well, probs got riker off with a serious reprimand

[@Akuma2000]

the treaty AL Jarreau, you gotta love youtube subtitles, I knew the federation was moonlighting with the Romulans.

[@pitodesign]

"You just ended your career Will." "I can still become a pizza baker."

[@johns250]

Picard: "It's illegal to use such a device, goes against the treaty, etc." Also Picard: "Can we use it? Make it so."

[@r0bw00d]

Fuck survival, am I right?

[@Beyondthe5thPanel]

John S it was used to ultimately show the enemy on the other side what they were up to and they cooperated fully with that enemy once they exposed themselves. Captain Picard wanted to, in good faith, show that they intended to fully abide by the treaty by exposing what the admiral had hidden years prior. Also, if they didn’t equip the vessel with the cloak, and run the test as they did, the entire crew would risk being court martialed and likely stripped of rank and their commission, because they ultimately had no proof, aside from the device, of what the admiral was seeking to do. Remember, he had friends in high places and would be willing to do anything to hide the evidence, including lying and stripping them of commission. They needed that proof and needed that to show the enemy so that they didn’t risk the federations defenses

[@deanladue3151]

No choice. But I would have gotten the hell out of there while still under cloak. The Romulans wouldn't have been able to prove anything about how the Enterprise escaped from that astroid. All they would have for any sort of proof is the wrecked USS Pegasus. But still would've arrested ADM. Pressman for violating the Algeron Treaty

[@nick0875]

I mean they could just spend the rest of the episode waiting around till they all starved to death since they couldn't get out normally.

[@jamesnealii8370]

He had very little choice but to use it All legal methods of getting out such as phasers would have cause the cavern to collapse as data clearly Said the only safe method was the illegal phase cloaking device Picard made a pragmatic decision in this case and then once they wore safely out he proceeded to expose the illegal cloaking device in front of the romulans and placed admiral pressman under arrest for violating the treaty

[@fencserx9423]

At the moment the admiral openly disobeyed a treaty, every officer on the bridge had a duty to disobey his orders.

[@Marinealver]

The Treaty of Alegron is always a funny plot device on why the Federation don't have cloaking technology when they already stole it from the Romulans (The Enterprise Incident). It is so one sided that it makes no sense, Federation remains at a tactical disadvantage without the Romulans adopting the same disadvantage, and they both give up territory to act as a buffer that the Romulans with their cloaking technology constantly violated. When you examine it closer it is just stupid, they should have made some technobable on how a new sensor technology makes TOS cloaking technology useless and have the romulans develop singularity cloaking technology that acomplish the same thing but is much diffrent.

[@SpeedyEric1]

And shortly after this, the Dominion showed up, and the Romulans help the Federation with their cloaking tech to be used on the USS Defiant.

[@thomashewes5924]

Which they could of done without the romulans far earlier if they kept it a secret

[@benjaminoechsli1941]

Excellent. The second-ever Federation-Romulan co-venture.

[@scottmatheson3346]

The Treaty of Algeron? They made a treaty with a rat?

[@Dragonrose36]

That was AlgerNon, not Algeron. :D

[@HeathenGeek]

and he was a mouse

[@fibnotnow3392]

Maybe it's a flower.

[@leons.kennedy6710]

The first book that made me cry manly tears.

[@Atrenu]

His brother's wicked smaht

[@oldtwinsna8347]

Fun fact: Data said "theoretically" three times in this episode when being asked questions.

[@luvmenow33]

The whole idea of a higher rank taking command has worked what twice? Both in TOS and both almost got the ship destroyed.

[@legothoron1]

Commodore Matt Decker?

[@Apple_Teck]

Many Bothans died to bring us this information,..

[@Artisan1979]

1:16 turn on the man who stood with him facing dishonor from his people for an admiral who committed treason 12 years ago? No chance in hell of that happening.

[@KingoftheJuice18]

The one dislike is from the great-great-great-grandfather of Admiral Pressman.

[@Gamble333]

LOL at the black guy at 0:52!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@Gizziiusa]

i see locke is even stirring up trouble in the ST universe too

[@nucflashevent]

You know, I don't think it's recognized that the Federation didn't just match the other groups in regard to cloaking, they surpassed them in Federation Ships equipped with such a device could not only avoid detection, they could literally pass through solid matter...something as far as I'm aware none of the other cloak tech possessing civilizations can claim.

[@primeobjective5469]

2:10 -- "Make it so."

[@mattsmedley.onehandedgamin9029]

Its the "A" Team, just in space 🤣. Their trapped somewhere, cue the music & build something.......😀

[@LordyT34]

"Any attempt to cut through the rock could cause the chasm to collapse" In space?

[@joemunch58]

Picard. It's illegal! But study it, so we can use it.

[@tablesalt2628]

I wish politicians had half as much credibility as Picard

[@tedlington]

1:07 Riker is like “This bitch is crazy”

[@deathstrike]

Admiral Pressman: "That treaty was the biggest mistake". Captain Picard: "THAT TREATY Admiral, is why we are able to have this conversation instead of a long and bloody war with the Romulans. Who are you to decide Admiral Pressman? What rules and regulations we are to follow? No Admiral, I will not just sit by, and watch as an institution I have given my life to protect is simply tossed aside when it becomes...inconvenient." Also, later it was established (non-canon) that the phasing cloak was a derivative of research the Klingons had conducted. They had also developed a prototype. However, just as the events that transpired on the Pegasus, the Klingons lost several ships due to the plasma conduits detonating. So they decided to abandon the project. This is speculation, but it could be that during the exchange of Federation and Klingon technology after the Khitomer accords, that the research might have been either acquired by Starfleet Intelligence, or by the shady Section 31. Either way, the cloak was deemed a failure by both factions due to it only having a total of about 20min useful cloaking time before it gets dangerous. For proof, did you notice that when the cloak engaged? It had the red glow typical of Klingon impulse and warp engines? (Blue for Federation, Green for Romulan). Either way, it was a hell of an advantage, and the Federation may have made it work. It is still in existence, as there is a shot of it from Picard at the Daystrom facility. It's merely stored. Of course such a useful device would never be destroyed by the Federation. So my guess? Admiral Pressman was simply "reassigned" and again the truth was buried. Until the day the treaty no longer applied.

[@tomb7942]

Its not a cloak, its a phase alteration device. Now the treaty isn't violated and all is well with the galaxy.

[@bobbastian760]

There's no way the federation would have signed a treaty that put it at such a crazy disadvantage.

[@mikepowell8611]

I actually agree with the Admiral tbh. Of course we're gonna develope cloaking thats a no brainer. But its gotta be done quitely and it shouldn't be deployed. But researching cloaking is far to vague of wording and far to restrictive to scientific development. What if we want to test our sensors at detecting a cloak? Are we gonna let the Romulans and Klingons run off with an entire field of military science.

[@ladydara7446]

It's not a cloaking device at all. It's a totally different technology, a phasing machine. No treaty violation. You're welcome.

[@ProjectAchieva]

MAKE IT SO!

[@katynewt]

The Treaty of Algeron is the sort of treaty you sign if you've just lost a war. Pressman was wrong to break the agreement, but the Federation was wrong to sign it in the first place…

[@dragonknightleader1]

Perhaps that's how the Neutral Zone came to be in the first place. The Federation tried to colonize those planets, the Romulans objected, fought a war that was largely a stalemate. The Romulans forgoed (forwent?) occupation because they have other threats like the Breen and created the Treaty of Algeron to end hostilies.

[@marcziegenhain8420]

"Signed in good faith."

[@charlescooney9281]

The federation tries to keep the peace.

[@Damien3210]

If this happened in real life, politicians would spend months if not years haggling about "While it does cloak the ship, it's not a cloaking deivce, it's a matter phase shifter, that, as a side effect, cloaks the ship, therefore, it's not a cloaking device, here's a few planets in the neutral zone you can have and lets forget about it"

[@Artisan1979]

2:14 They all probably went into the separate corners. God knows I couldn’t take several hours of listening to the admirals ranting and raving about that device.

[@brad4571]

God damn treaty of Algeron!

[@Ry-ss5dz]

I think it would be funny if the random blue shirt in the background tried to help the admiral arrest Picard, only to get vaporized by Worf

[@rex290]

Picard going public with the cloak to the Romulans, later one, is probably one of the things that made Pressmen's threat to Riker utterly meaningless. Pressmen and his friends would have been sacked/charged with crimes by the non-involved SF admirals to save their own skins. No time for petty revenge on Riker.

[@canadianbeeph]

Worf is so badass.

[@gabrielhowardMKE]

Jean Luc was so legalistic at times it was disgusting - he was such a dichotomy of a character - preaching to "Q" that there can be no justice if all laws are absolute, yet often times strictly adhering to the absolute legalism of Starfleet.

[@adrianbooth438]

The admiral is played by the same actor who played Joe White in (the newer) Hawaii Five-0!!

[@vguyver2]

I remember him best in the suspense horror film "The Step Father". Others remember him as the Locke from LOST. Great actor, full of charm and sincerity in his roles.

[@marcw6875]

He played Alexander McSween in "Young Guns" as well. ;)