The TRUTH About the Soleil Controversy || 🏳️‍🌈 SRPG Sapphics 🏳️‍🌈

[@maxyaju4293]

"Hey Intelligent Systems how about you add some ideas from non Fe Kaga games and develop your own twist on it?" IS: "Understood, let's do our own version of drugging a girl's drink" "..."

[@clammmin3098]

I genuinely loved soleil when I played Fates as a 12 year old. It made me happy to have a playable girl so honest about her attraction to women, and her dad being completely ok with that. Plus her sprite is top tier.

[@HolyAlondite]

Honestly, what gets me is that, like you said, the entire issue could've been solved by having Kamui just.....tell Soleil about the potion they found and then she agrees to try it out as a exercise. Which feels both better AND more in-character for Corrin/Kamui imo, since it feels more in line with their usual level of impulsiveness

[@floris1111]

Soleil is quite a fun character if you're able to ignore half her supports (:

[@oddpanda4470]

Which ones

[@AudreyII970]

I already do this for half the Fates cast 😊

[@mauricioalvarezpino1818]

@@oddpanda4470 Ophelia and Corrin are a good start

[@oddpanda4470]

@@mauricioalvarezpino1818........................................................

[@LP-zn8sc]

Wait people read fates text when they play? I thought we all just skipped everything like with engage.

[@MegiDolaDyne]

Soleil's whole concept is based on the "schoolgirl lesbian"; this very outdated Japanese idea that lesbianism is just a phase that a lot of girls go through until eventually they "grow up" and marry a man. It's gross and it's absolutely fucking wild that it made its way into a Nintendo game.

[@juicyjuustar121]

the worst part is this kind of culture exists in the west as well, though admittedly not to the same extent. it definitely used to be more prevalent, but theres this idea that all girls are into other girls when theyre young and immature, and that they grow out of it eventually. its not like there arent some fringe cases where this is true, but as with all generalizations its disgusting to push them onto people who it doesnt apply to, and extremely harmful to make it the sole portrayal of lesbianism in your game/story/whatever (rhajat exists but.... i refuse to comment on rhajat)

[@nerdyspinosaurid]

how is it wild that the company that is consistently very conservative has an outdated shitty stereotype in its products?

[@danielstandart880]

I suppose it's less important that the other topics here but like. Is the idea of "a drug that makes you see others as the opposite gender" not just the wildest concept? How does this work even slightly? What happens if you use it on a non-binary person, or even just a drag queen? What does Forrest look like? What an insane thing to put in one conversation and not explore, at all.

[@nahte123456]

I mean Awakening had Henry just randomly swapped bodies with Sumia. Magic in FE is just weird some times.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

Drag Queens becomes Drag Kings, obviously

[@azurastellav6564]

Honestly, I'd have much fewer problems with Soleil's depiction if she was allowed to have a wife and the conversion therapy wasn't ever a factor. Side note, the roofie-ing was yikes no matter how you slice it.

[@arikaaa69]

I think the issues with Soleils support with m!Corrin would mostly be solved if instead of drugging her, he took a gender change potion to look like a girl. That or just make the drug thing consensual. Edit: Soleil should also be allowed to marry girls, including f!Corrin and other 2nd gen girls By the way it's written, the whole drug thing isn't supposed to be a big deal, but its baffling that one in the writing team realized how analogues the powder thing comes off as the kind of drugging that leads to SA

[@dyrr836]

I'm glad you brought up the fact that Japanese audiences didn't enjoy it either. Every time a localization cleans something up you hear that same bad faith argument, as if the entire country of Japan and everyone who plays games over there is a deranged otaku with no standards. Same deal with Engage localization fixing the Anna support.

[@DaniDoyle]

Its low key racist too, since the argument is basically "all Japanese people are actually homophobic/racist/insert other bad traits". While there are obviously cultural differences across all different cultures, the way people portray Japanese culture (often to defend stuff like this) is just gross and quite inaccurate

[@dyrr836]

@@DaniDoyle Yeah, for sure, that's what I was hoping to say but didn't really know how to phrase it. It happens a lot with gay/trans characters especially because somehow people have deluded themselves into thinking that it's a "Western ideal" that exists nowhere else in the world.

[@crystalqueen9711]

@@dyrr836 Propaganda. The reason is right wing propaganda

[@blueizumi]

@@dyrr836 It was so creepy the lengths some male gamers went to defend this controversy. I remember I stopped watching some channels and stopped hanging around some websites because of it

[@abbieburton2794]

I will say ; I really like niles and I like that you can mlm with him. sure, it's kinda rude the only gay characters are scoundrels and murderers. but honestly if they were gonna write a bisexual flirt character like niles at the very least they went all the way. not that all of fates' characters were so lucky...

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

I’ll never understand why Soleil isn’t allowed to S-support any of the girls.

[@damediadora4160]

Because I wasn't around when the originial discussions happened, I always forget that this support tends to be the main thing that gets brought up regarding Soleil and not say, the rewriting of all her S supports to be platonic (with the exception of Corrin and Forrest) (I presume this was also due to backlash from Japanese players, but I don't quite know). I don't really think Soleil was written (or localized) to be bi, rather I think the tought process of her character was "what if Laslow had a child who was also into women but that child... was a woman" with the essential joke being that a woman chasing after a woman would be ridiculous. You're not supposed to take her affection towards women seriously, which is probably why only three of the japanese (and therefore still romantic) S supports even feel the need to mention her stated attraction to women. In the Kisaragi support she says "I used to be the type to get excited by hanging out with girls but talking with you day by day I started thinking only of you" and in the grey (asugi) support she goes "I'm happy, happier than receiving affection from any girl". Only in the forrest support are her feelings for girls somewhat placed on the same level as her feelings for a man, but that is also so that she can assure us that she falls in love with Forrest as a man (lest we start getting ideas that maybe there would be something queer about their relationship, because remember, this man who dresses like a woman is a man, trans people don't exist!). In principle there's nothing wrong with the character archetype of straight girl who chases after girls like her flirty father but it only really works as an archetype if there's actually bi and lesbian girls around and given that Fates either has one obscure bi character (syalla) or just a woman who happens to be able to marry a woman (rhajat) (I don't count avatar copy-pastes as meaningfully queer in any sense), it's just kinda homphobic

[@moch1675]

I say this as someone who genuinely loves Fates, I kind of hate just how horribly Fates treates gay characters! It just feels really bad. :c And from my perspective... I feel it's particularly bad for saphic ones, the way the only female same sex marriage is with a second generation child, which makes it almost hidden, and how the game treats soleil.. It just, feels really bad. In a way, I'm truly glad that three houses did it better. ^^

[@nahte123456]

So Soleil is an...interesting character in some supports. First while very clearly sapphic undertones the supports always keep a layer of "not gay, but just likes cute", she also keeps talking about puppies and things in small conversations in much the same way. Her supports with Corrin are also just...not well handed. Since the drug doesn't actually do much to Soleil I do think it was genuinely not meant to be taken seriously, Corrin is consistently showed to be super kind and the drug doesn't effect Soleil outside of the gender thing once she knows what it does. It's not GOOD, but I don't think it was ever connected to actual drugging someone when writing and I'm willing to take that as a simple mistake in framing. I don't blame anyone for hating it, but I'm willing to take it in good faith as just a fuck up. Like as a comparison if you remember back in Awakening you had Henry body swap with Sumia. At the end of their B Support Henry says he'll have Sumia using hexes easily and when she asks him to explain he just says she'll see. And at the start of the A Support he's body swapped them both so she can use his magic and he can fly her Pegasus, and she spends most of the support complaining about it. I think it's the same general idea, some kind of magic used to 'help' by someone to excited to really explain themselves. I think they are meant to be taken the same way, just the use of drugs is not a good substitute for magic.

[@nerdyspinosaurid]

tbh the nonconsensual magical body swap is also uncomfortable, whether it's directly a drug doesn't really matter.

[@nahte123456]

@@nerdyspinosaurid also fair just that it's not as immediately uncomfortable, a lot of people just forget the support. It's not as immediately ick, which leaves room for people to accept it as "humor".

[@2thDkae]

I will say, it sucks that Soleil has a body swap support too with Ophelia, except WAY FUCKIN worse because she literally runs off to "look for a mirror". Let the silly pink hair bi woman be normal please, IS 😭

[@nahte123456]

@@2thDkae Also true, although it really wasn't a smart idea from Ophelia, and it does end with Soleil learning so you at least have the comfort of it's MEANT to be wrong and learning not just being creepy.

[@2thDkae]

@@nahte123456 Yes, that is the one positive i suppose 😂 I wouldn't say Ophelia is to blame necessarily, but yea it you're right, bodyswapping as some kind of punishment for being a creep isn't exactly an effective strategy lol

[@villiamt1969]

I want to add idk how I feel about them making most of Soleil's S supports platonic or otherwise "non marraige" in the localization. It really adds to ambiguity on whether she's meant to be bisexual woman with a preference for women or a lesbian who can be "turned". I'm not saying actual bisexual people are attracted to everyone but this is more of a flaw of the game system being if it can "technically" happen it is allowed to happen romantically speaking....unless you're Soilel. Like, her existing S supports being MCorrin (Avatar biases) and Forrest is its own can of worms.

[@kityanokurane4394]

I've always gotten the feeling that Soleil was originally intended to be a lesbian by the writers but they were forced to make her bi to fit with the heterocentric game mechanics. She's a useless lesbian in my heart.

[@neongrey333]

Yeah, like, I'm sure the original thought process in the writing is that it was a funny bit and no one ever thought of the implications, which is pretty shitty, but it's a different kind of shitty than conversion therapy. If you mentally yank out 'he drugs her drink, surprise!' and replace it with 'a funny bit happens and now soleil genderswaps everyone', then it's a cute bit of supports. Shame you have to do that. And like it would have been absolutely trivial to just swap out like two textboxes and have f!corrin be like "well I'm a girl, how do you feel about me". I guess the conceit of her not being able to marry f!corrin is that soleil probably isn't able to deal with it but like come on, that sucks, let me kiss girls in conquest

[@Laurmachi]

Yeah I… never liked Soleil much at all. Even this support aside, I really hate her attitude towards Ophelia (which has to be huge since I don’t care for Ophelia either) and how she has zero S supports with women. Like don’t get me wrong, with her behavior keeping her away from marriage is a good thing… but it also just feels like such piss pour representation. She’s in my bottom 10 of the whole series because of it.

[@glitchwarrior7270]

Soleil is a fun character. I just wish she were handled better. The fact of the matter is, IS took her obsession *way too far* as with just about everything in Fates.

[@hectorlackless]

Ironicaly they missed to take said obsession to the logical end of having S same sex supports

[@calamitous_Calamitas]

I married Soleil im my first Conquest run because she is a silly and loveable goofball. I was NOT ready for the japanese B Support.

[@OrigamiAhsoka]

My honest reactions: C support: aww that’s sweet of corrin definitely not bad B: holy hell It would’ve been so much better if he asked her first 💔 It’s honestly cool that Japanese audiences disliked it too

[@swoobatfan6606]

This wouldn't be an issue at all if the writers showed that Soleil agreed to do all that. I'm sure that most treatments wouldn't be effective if they were done by surprise.

[@ghostrouxinol6169]

I personally never liked Soleil. She keeps harrasing females units even when they ask to stop. (Eg. Ophelia.) But i wish she could have Same Sex Support.

[@the_beans_man1524]

Am I crazy for getting her S support with Forrest because he was the wifiest marriable person in my army

[@Laurmachi]

Yeah I… never liked Soleil much at all. Even this support aside, I really hate her attitude towards Ophelia (which has to be huge since I don’t care for Ophelia either) and how she has zero S supports with women. Like don’t get me wrong, with her behavior keeping her away from marriage is a good thing… but it also just feels like such piss pour representation. She’s in my bottom 10 of the whole series because of it.

[@jdpfeifer93]

i definitly enjoyed soleil as a character, and not to try to downplay the concept at all, but i have to wonder how different the drugging would have been recieved if it was something like it was corrin asked someone to cast a spell/hex on soleil to get the same qaffect, as opposed to spiking her drink

[@SweaterPuppys]

It’s not my place to speak on the actual support conversation itself however the controversy surrounding it is almost sorta nostalgic at this point I remember seeing it all over serenes forest but the support wasn’t even translated in my patch of the game

[@FailLincs]

That B support threw me for a loop

[@prestononuselogu9973]

Same

[@csrjjsmp]

It’s insane to talk about what was “rumored to be” in the game and that getting “confirmed” when the game was literally released and publicly available

[@redmagusmorgan]

just wondering - how was this translated?

[@dogenjoyer2480]

very gay 10/10

[@nerdyspinosaurid]

Oh, it's just about a thing I actually hadn't heard of. Tbh I thought this video was gonna be about more general stuff than this one Japanese support, since I've weird some drama about Soleil's writing in completely different supports that stayed in the localized version (or, are in it, technically I don't know how accurate any of them are to the original)

[@jewels936]

Despite being a creep in certain supports, I remembered really liking Soleil, especially her paralogue and relationship with Laslow.

[@jierdareisa4313]

I love ALL Dani Doyle videos!!!! ❤

[@Sliathedarkfox11]

2:43 Wait what, Why is Sigfried green and Xander is able to use it as a Wyvern Lord?

[@DaniDoyle]

This is from Heart Seal Swap where all units started in their heart seal classes and their personal weapons are changed to be usable in those classes (Takumi Ryoma and Xander get lances, Leo gets a Dagger)

[@lordmudkip7344]

Feels a bit weird to compare the spiking the drink with the weird drug to the spiking the drink we have in the real world, it's not really on the same level, although the fact that Soleil falls in love later is a very yikes and reinforces that reading. But at best it was irresponsible that no one noticed the similarity. If it was a fangame made by an unaware teen it would be something, this Fates was made by a professional team of adults. They should be aware of the similarities that exist with something very bad that exists in the real world. The drug could have easily be taken consensually or at the very least with a warning, to put it more towards "medicine that tastes bad so I have to put it in your juice", instead of being closer to a rape drug

[@DaniDoyle]

I mean, it is quite literally putting a drug in someone's drink without their consent which later results in them falling in love. The comparison is right there. I don't think it's a weird comparison. Things don't need to be identical to be compared and found similar.

[@lordmudkip7344]

@@DaniDoyle yeah of course, but like, if a parent puts medicine in a drink it's not the same as spiking. But it ends up with the falling in love thing, which makes the comparission much more fair. When you were talking about the B support it felt a bit like you were minimizing the awfulness of spiking drinks, although later it made much more sense

[@twingames8499]

Nice vid

[@17Master]

All I can think is that there is enough to give Fates' writing flak over without misrepresenting it. And that we can do better as a community than harassing the messenger.