The Truth Behind Doran Martell's Plan for House Targaryen & the Iron Throne

[@made-line7627]

Great insights as always! It's so bizarre that Willem Darry never uttered a peep about this Dornish alliance, and even more bizarre that Dany and Viserys were literally left to beg on the street, when they allegedly had an entire kingdom behind them. The whole thing is just bizarre. You make so much sense in these analyses ☮️

[@HillsAliveYT]

Thanks! And this is really the clincher for me as well. There are a lot of aspects of this whole secret pact that are very suspicious, but the idea that Ser Willem knew that Viserys and Dany had people they could supposedly trust and didn't tell them about it just does not and cannot make sense under any circumstances.

[@IndianHeathen1982]

​@HillsAliveYT couldn't it just be GRRM's gardner style though? Retcon to make the Dorne plot fit in?

[@atinity6749]

I think offering marriage deal to Daenerys is just offering a fake olive branch. Dany turns it down because she's suspicious of the deal or because she doesn't particularly fancy Quentin... But maybe time will come when she needs Dorne's aid or their allegiance but Dorne isn't willing... They can simply throw that offer back to Dany's face, tell her they tried working with her but that she refused them. How passive-aggressive of Doran, if true 😅

[@emilybroderick2421]

Yours is the best new(ish) ASOIAF channel out there right now. I'm a big fan of In Deep Geek, LmL, etc., but they mostly stick to the expanded lore (great! cool!) while you take a hard look at the plot of the series itself. Keep up the good work!

[@Rosie-yt8nd]

Either Doran is reeeeeaaaalllyyy terrible at making plans, or he's not telling the truth. but why would he send his children into danger with a lie? that's the part i just cant grasp. like c'mon dude you're literally setting them up for failure (and death). either way he is playing too cautious and that will be his fatal mistake in my opinion. like a foil to Ned who was to bold and obvious. Doran keeps his cards too close to his chest, trusting no one else with the plan, and thats why the plan will fail

[@HillsAliveYT]

Someone else phrased it really well (LOL and I might have already said this in the comments at least once), but that Doran seems like a great game player who doesn't realize that the pieces are people with their own thoughts and impulses and decision-making abilities. I think he set up Quentyn for very obvious failure to the point that it's bananas that he even made it far as Meereen, and he didn't expect Quentyn to do something so outrageously risky in the name of wooing Dany. Great point about him being a foil for Ned though, I hadn't thought of it but I think you're dead on, Ned was way too open about his plans while Doran is dangerously secretive about them.

[@Rosie-yt8nd]

@@HillsAliveYT yes exactly!! Doran fails to recognize and include that his pawns' motivations don't align with his. they *might* if he told them the truth, but the way things are if they see a better option for *themselves* they'll take it. real people are not obedient chess pieces

[@HillsAliveYT]

@@Rosie-yt8nd Agreed, and he's now REALLY learning this the hard way. It will be interesting to see how he works moving forward now that Oberyn and Quentyn are dead and Myrcella has been horribly wounded, as clearly the whole keeping shit secrets thing is NOT working out in his favor.

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@HillsAliveYT theirs a theory that he is trying to kill off his two oldest kids so the youngest can rule

[@TheGoodLuc]

What if Doran Martell... is not Doran Martell? What if he is possessed?

[@Argos-xb8ek]

Quentyn went through a gauntlet of trauma and all for nothing

[@veila0924]

That's kind of the whole point though, a subversión of the hero's journey he believes himself to be in

[@notdeadjustyet8136]

Yes, poor guy. The entire quest was an obvious disaster. I don't understand why Doran would do that to his own son

[@frankmigliore9240]

Amazing video. I fully agree. Doran sends his kids because no matter what happens, it’s a win-win, or more of a win-win-win. First of all, if neither of them marry a Targaryen, House Martell has falsely presented itself as an ally to the eventually arriving Targaryens and is playing a long game. This was his logic in sending Quentyn. He knew it would fail, but wanted it to fail safely, as he knows Targaryen egos, and correctly predicted that Daenerys would see Dorne as an ally after this. Later, once he learns about Aegon, he tells Arianne the lie of wanting Targaryen restoration so that she will think she’s in the fold and will be motivated to act on his behalf. And he sends Arianne to Aegon so he can find out whether or not Aegon is real. If Aegon is real, Doran will support him- that would make Aegon his nephew. If he’s not real, Aegon still also thinks that Dorne supports him. And if he isn’t real, and Arianne returns alone, then he gains extremely valuable insight. And Arianne has proven her loyalty and efficiency.

[@disneybunny45]

I'm in the middle of watching all of you ASOIAF videos and I'm really enjoying it. I like your pacing and voice and how you analyze the books. I'd listen to you talk about anything really.

[@trillionbones89]

Marrying his son to the Lannister/"Baratheon" daughter was a smart choice, given the lack of heir to Lannister lands. And the Baratheons are neighbors to Dorne. Plus her gender makes her move to Dorne instead of them sending away a family member. Suddenly they have a claim to two other kingdoms while not giving away claims to Dornish lands. This could be a great spring board to exporting Dornish culture and giving precedence to a daughter's claim in Westeros. This is regardless of who sits on the iron throne itself. And if they support a Targaryen reconquest Dorne would gain the most, especially with a female regent.

[@HowToPnP]

I love the idea that GRRM told us that Doran fucked up on the first page: Like the oranges, his plan is overly ripe. He waited too long and his option have rotted away. Not sure if GRRM would go for an anticlimax, but it would be funny!

[@whynotcaptaincrunch]

I think what you're saying makes sense, but I also think it neglects the textual evidence. The obvious meaning of the subtext in his chapter is that the reason his plots are all failing is because he's been overly cautious in his scheming. He did want to ally the Targaryens to overthrow the Baratheons and Lannisters, but he waited too long and now all his plotting is come to naught.

[@kahare9565]

One thing that’s probably good to mention: by sending Arianne and Quenton to marry Aegon or Dany, if either of his kids ‘win’, he guarantees a Dance of the Dragons. The way to prevent a Targ civil war is Aegon/Dany, take one out with marriage and that option disappears. It also is sending his kids to two sides of a potential civil war which is hella stupid.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah that is a very good point, perhaps a teensy way over overlooking that would be if he thought that the remaining Targaryens were going to unite to retake Westeros, but he seems a little too savvy to believe that, and given that Arianne thinks that Dany had Drogo off her own brother I definitely can't imagine they'd be banking on any familial loyalty. When you put it this way, it actually seems like there actually can be no way that the plan Doran says he has is his actual game plan.

[@kahare9565]

@@HillsAliveYT yeah the issue with thinking they’d unite is how do you unite them? Marriage. Aegon and Dany cannot co-rule (I mean presumably) and given their sexes the obvious answer is marriage. Neither has a spare sibling now to marry, etc making them basically the only game in town for Targs. I think Doran wanting to axe the Targs is way more likely than him wanting to help them. It’s hard to know what his precise plan for Quenton was because he didn’t know anything beyond the marriage. In the end he does release dragons but it’s pretty unlikely that was intended (I think?) although that does benefit Aegon by potentially taking 1-3 dragons off of Dany’s side of the board.

[@HillsAliveYT]

@@kahare9565 Yeah definitely agreed, I can't imagine him wanting a Targaryen restoration given what happened to his family before, and ESPECIALLY now that Quentyn got roasted by a mfing dragon. Given the history of the Martells and queen Nymeria, it actually wouldn't remotely surprise me if he wanted to get closer to Dany so he could kill the dragons, and if that wasn't his plan before I can certainly see him making it a priority now.

[@bensonfang1868]

tbf many lords did that during the blackfyre rebellion--Lord Ambrose Butterwell literally lost two sons--one for each side.

[@rsync9490]

Ah yes the dornish master plan.

[@tiagghho]

your channel is great, it's always good to find fresh asoif content

[@loudradialem5233]

I'm not sure what his endgame goal is, but the means to achieve it he already said himself: let his enemies kill each other while his own (family/subordinates) blood isn't spilled. Yeah, he's big fat liar, but in this one occasion he's speaking the truth because it makes sense.

[@luisclaudiogomezkarnstedt5525]

I think part of the key to the mistery it's metanarrative: what's the tale that GRRR Martin is trying to tell with Doran Martell. I think he's truly seeking a Targaryen restauration; but he's trying to be nice guy about it, so it's total foil for littlefinger, who's the other side of the coin: the manipulative heartless bastard. So Doran Martell it's the study of the cerebral, careful guy who wants to do his best, without killing more people than needed or having collateral damage.

[@nont18411]

Saying Doran Martell wants to restore Targaryen dynasty is like saying that Vladimir Lenin fights for the Romanovs.

[@meng2976]

Regarding Doran sending others to make pacts for him, I feel like his mobility issues should be taken into account here. Off the top of my head, I dont think hes capable of moving such long distances so that's why hes forced to send Arianne and Quentyn for him. As for Oberyn, I'm not sure if Doran had the same health issues at the time but I wonder if he felt it would raise too many eyebrows if he traveled himself all the way to Essos, where everyone knew the remaining Targs were.

[@johnpotts8308]

Arranging marriages through intermediaries was acceptable courtly behaviour in Medieval Europe. Catherine of Aragorn was engaged to Arthur Tudor (Henry VII's eldest son) without the pair ever meeting, as was Anne of Cleves to Henry VIII. While neither of those marriages were successful, they were seen as legitimate. And breaking an engagement was extremely serious - Richard III claimed his nephew Edward V was illegitimate because his father was engaged to somebody else prior to his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville (Edward V's mother).

[@ruddyman4928]

I always think the theories people come up with about how Doran is actually a galaxy brained genius are entertaining

[@marcusanark2541]

To be fair we only know how smart Petyr Baelish is because it is revealed to us, in-universe almost no one except Varys and Tyrion do, so it's very possible Doran Martell is a genius with a very long term calculated plan no one knows about or it is actually a red herring.

[@vortex_1336]

He doesn't necessarily want a Targaeryan restoration. He wants revenge on the Lannisters. If that means putting a Targaeryan on the throne than so be it.

[@hellsjamfleas]

I think this is very strong, also interesting. Thankyou

[@permiebird937]

Please go to Preston Jacob's channel and watch his Dornish Master plan, and Deeper Drone playlist. He covers this extremely well.

[@shimaalcarrim7949]

Love channel

[@bclr6843]

Depending on which side you take but both sides agree Rhagar cared about Elia because he didn’t try and have his 3rd child with her, knowing it would kill her

[@mayasakkal4572]

I don’t know what Doran’s intentions are, but I feel like maybe his intention was, as suggested, gaining a form of truce/ally ship with the targaryens. Because from the information we have. It seems like a basic négociation tactic. Ask for more to get to what you really want. Quentin ask for mariage, she says no, but because she doesn’t want him as an enemy, she offers something else. Like a promise? (Or a trust to then potentially stab them in the back, she wouldn’t suspect the family whose simping for her) And I wonder if you think that Oberyn was also left in the dark? Or was only told a half truth. If I remember correctly, book Ellaria Sand called him out on his secrecy and was conflicted with Doran’s « reveals ». Anyway, thanks for your vidéos! You might get me to read the books again! 😊

[@tombullard123]

I think all the marriage alliances are just plays at loyalty. He would never ship off his daughter to a son of the mad king after what happened last time. And quentins marriage proposal seems so bad it must be intentional. I think doran arranged them expecting them to fail and fall through but to keep the idea that dorne is supportive and is trying to ally with the targaryens. They would never see a dagger from the house that tried to ally itself twice with the targaryens with marriages

[@concept5631]

The Sand Snakes are destroying their branch of House Martell while Doran is literally playing 4D chess.

[@astrinymris9953]

You make some good points-- but I think your contention that marriages and treaties can *only* be made by Doran Martell personally is incorrect. Rulers sending ambassadors to other courts to treat with them is an established fact in European history, so we can only assume this to be the case in Westeros and Essos as well. So Oberyn and Quentyn definitely could have made pacts on Doran's behalf *if* Doran had given them the authority to do so. He doesn't seem to have in Quentyn's case, which supports your theory, so my objection is basically on pedantic grounds. Not hatin', just sayin'. I agree that Doran is unlikely to be all "Rah, rah, Team Targaryen" in light of his history with the family. However, another KZbinr made a persuasive case that Rhaegar had colluded with Doran to negotiate an annulment of his marriage to Elia before marrying Lyanna. This video actually has solidified that for me, because you've pointed out how much more real power Elia would have had as a princess in Dorne compared to being queen in Westeros. Rather than being the poor, cast-off wife fanon has painted her as, Elia might have been eager to end her marriage to Rhaegar and get away from her crazy father-in-law. You've also made me wonder if Doran Martell straight-up tried to kill off his son Quentyn by sending him on an impossible mission with almost no resources or support. Seriously, he could have disguised Quentyn as a wealthy merchant so that he could have traveled more safely and comfortably, and arguably just as discreetly, without torquing off a famously-ruthless mercenary company. Again, just sayin'.

[@shizachan8421]

I think he just wanted Quentyn out of the picture and make Arianne paranoid to motivate her, which is why he send him off with barely any means to negotiate a marriage with Daenerys. He expected him to fail and be stuck somewhere in Essos, dirt poor but safe. What he probably didn't expect was Quentyn overperforming, not only reaching Daenerys but then also coming up with the idea of catching a dragon.

[@mohirender]

Dany laughs at Quentin cause he's the frog prince and makes a comment on it, then asks him, "Are you enchanted my prince?" Let's not forget she's still a teenage girl who is understandably attracted to the sexy bad boy men around her, Quentin is no Dhaario. Secondly, their heir and prince of Dorne comes to offer a marriage proposal that is certainly legally binding and Quentinn has been given authority by his liege father to do so. An example could be when Queen Rhaenya gave leave to her firstborn son to negotiate an alliance with the Starks, during the Dance of the Dragons; same idea.

[@daniell1483]

Looks like someone saw Preston's Deeper Dorne series. I agree the marriage pact is very suspect and it is quite likely fraudulent to some degree. So if Doran isn't looking for a Targaryen restoration, it is difficult to answer what he really wants, and why he is even putting up this pro-Targ front in the first place. None of the other Great Houses are putting up a pro-Targ pretence, so what does this give the Martells? It is really strange.

[@hillaryslack2884]

I really don't trust Doran. He has a habit of giving jobs to his family members that end up getting them killed because of their personalities. Which means he is either a lot stupider then he tries to make himself out to be, or he is actively trying to get most of his family killed. And until he proves himself to be an idiot I am just going to assume that it's the second option. Granted I think most of Salty(?) Dornish to be untrustworthy. Almost all the stories in their history are about them not caring about the common people. Also for house Martell, why is it that they go on and on about Dorne not really having much natural resources but they always dressed in silks or cloth of gold. They have to be getting money from somewhere. Given there seemingly close connections to the free cities of Essos, I am almost sure that the Martell's are part of the slave trade. Though I really want more proof one way or the other before I really decide that is what is going on And the story about Nymeria doesn't make much sense to me. If they where fleeing the Valyrians how did they sail right past them instead of going north even if that did mean having to leave their ships earlier then they did. If they where mostly non warriors why did everywhere they land treat them like they where the stronger force and back down giving gifts and trying not to fight. So besides the Martell's and the Rhoynish really not seeming to be trustworthy do I actually have a thought about what Doran is trying to do? Well for one thing I think that Quentyn was a lot more told to get a Dragon then he was to get Danny. It is possible that he Nettles one of the Dragons and the burnt body is someone else. I am not sure how much I believe that theory but it does seem very possible. However I think that Danny is going to come back to find both the Dragons have been taken to Westeros without her. Who stole them and how is really up in the air. As for Arianne I think her story is really going to mirror her brothers. As for what Doran is doing, well he is going to lie some more, pretend he is ill when really he is way overselling it. Granted everyone around him seems to believe him. And he is going to try and kill off all his family until his youngest son is his heir. I am not really sure why he wants his youngest son as his heir, granted both his older children are a bit...foolish? It is interesting to note that if a long night happens Dorne is actually going to be fairly well off, they might even get more rain then normal. Not that I think Doran really has any thoughts about the long night, the only way he would would be if he is somehow a magical character which besides being a character who embodies the Stranger he doesn't seem to be. Plus other characters embody Death in the story without being magical.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Actually I wish I could recall where I saw this because I thought it was a brilliant assessment of Doran, but I read something once where someone essentially said that Doran is a very good chess player who fails to recognize that the "pieces" are people and thus he can't just treat them like objects that he's moving on a board, and a lot of the terrible results of his plans are caused by the fact that these people he is manipulating have minds of their own and aren't simply doing exactly what Doran wants. I'd love to have some more insight into Nymeria as well, but her escape is weirdly on brand with the Dornish, like a huge aspect of why they were able to avoid being conquered by the Targaryens was because they could essentially vanish into thin air in order to evade their enemies. I'm a tad dubious on the idea that the Martells are involved in the slave trade as well, both because it doesn't really seem in line with their morals but also because there are so many ways that they could make money through trade via the Free Cities that doesn't involve them participating in something that is a serious enough crime in Westeros that it could literally get them killed. Personally I think that one of Dany's dragons getting stolen while she's still in Essos is a little early, and I'd be shocked if Euron doesn't end up stealing Viserion (GoT isn't exactly a fountain of accurate information, but Euron killing Rhaegal so easily in the most random scene ever made me think that GRRM told the writers that Euron would be involved with the dragons that they just shoved that weirdassness into the show. My suspicion has been that Rhaegal will actually be killed by the Martells, and Viserion will be the one to "betray his family" and "go mad" because he'll be under the control of Euron). But, something I'm freaking dying for GRRM to incorporate into the story and that I was so disappointed was not a thing whatsoever was the Martell's/Rhoynar's water magic. If that becomes a factor and their magical abilities have been reawakened in the same way that the Targaryen and Stark magic has, I'll be freaking living. But even if their own magic isn't an element of the story, the very fact that it existed at one point makes me think that at least Doran and the Martells are somewhat primed to believe in something like The Long Night despite the fact that most people in Westeros would think it was ridiculous.

[@hillaryslack2884]

@@HillsAliveYT Doran just not understanding people that well might work. I am not sure I believe it, but I really don't have strong enough opinions about it one way or the other. I just think he is very creepy but I could be seeing him as worst then he actually is. I actually have very little faith in salty Dornish morals at all. The Rocky Dornish and the Danes are the only ones that seem trustworthy. I also have a lot of trouble liking a father and uncle willing to take young girls break them, and make them into very deadly weapons. And we actively see Doran break his own daughter into trusting him and only him. So the older Sand Sankes? I really don't want to know what they did to get the girls like that. Your right there isn't much to say that they are really dealing with the slave trade. It's more that it would give them a lot of money, they are in just the right spot on the map for it, and that Bodyguard of Doran. It's a likely possibility in my mind, but it could also just be my mistrust of them. As for water magic. I really want to see it as well. Though where we are going to see it I don't know. Patchface, and the Reeds are just as likely places for water magic to show up. Though it is very possible that at some point the story is going to get very magical and everyone except a few are going to be magical characters.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah, well GRRM hasn't given us much insight into the Martells and Dorne in general so it's hard to judge WTF is going on there at this point, I just like them and they excite me because A. women actually have power so we stan and B. because as soon as they became a factor it's like George was introducing nonstop Chekhov's guns with them that have to go off at some point. Everything that Elia went through that hasn't been avenged, Quentyn being killed by a dragon, the Rhoynar having ancient water magic that they used to fight against the Valyrians in Essos, these are all things that are normally introduced into a story because they're actually going somewhere so I'd be surprised if they don't. And given the whole rebirth of magic and the way that magic seems to constantly counterbalance itself, I'd be pretty thrown off if dragons coming back into the world and invading Westeros had no role in reactivating the Martells' water mojo.

[@made-line7627]

@@HillsAliveYT Great points

[@adapienkowska2605]

"And the story about Nymeria doesn't make much sense to me. If they were fleeing the Valyrians how did they sail right past them instead of going north even if that did mean having to leave their ships earlier than they did. If they were mostly non warriors, why did everywhere they land treat them like they were the stronger force and back down, giving gifts and trying not to fight." But that's not the story of Nymeria. She sailed south as it was closest, and to go north they had to go through Valyrian controlled lands or on their side (as they actually did). What gifts? They had to run to Southors from Pirate Bay bc pirates attacked them, they fled from Southors bc the land was too dangerous, they were nicely greeted on Nath, but Nath is just that peaceful (but land is deadly to anybody but them), they got a too small island to live on it from Summer Islands, then they got to Dorne. Where is here a story of great warriors? It is rather implied that house Martel won thanks to Nymeria, bc she was really smart and Rhoynar were more advanced than Westetrosi at the time.

[@notdeadjustyet8136]

Whatever his plan maybe, It'll never ever stop puzzling me why Doran would send an unprepared Quentyn on such an obviously silly and dangerous quest that was so clearly doomed to fail, and Doran should've known that. YES, Doran is known to be a little too cautious,and it'll probably be his downfall, but he's also considered to be one of the smartest players out there, whilst The Quentyn Quest shows the exact opposite. Would he really sacrifice his own son? And whatever for?

[@eric2500]

They might have asked whether their sister was OKAY with Rhaegar having another wife when she could not have any more children - as long as her kids were still legit.

[@MauroEnfermoDeLepra]

Tbh i just don't like to think about the Martells because I get angry yet again with D&D for throwing away the plotline and the extra seaspns needed to fully fledge it

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

So things to keep in mind: Rhaenys is still alive, she is hiding as Oberyn’s bastard, the Sphinx (which is a clue itself to read Oedipus about Daenerys/Aegon), Sarella/Alleras. The real Quentyn left with his mother, this Quentyn was fostered in the Seven’s side of Dorne, sent on a mission with nobody loyal to “Dornish law” side of Dorne. The only reason Elia didn’t work out is that Robert got lucky in his rebellion, otherwise Rhaegar would have removed Aerys peacefully and Aegon(Griff) would be future king, maybe even Rhaenys (likely Elia and Arthur’s kid) if Rhaegar was assassinated and Elia pulled a Cercei-like coup. Elia raising Aegon to respect Dornish law might influence him to cede throne to a all Dornish Queen, Rhaenys. Aerys wasn’t really mad, probably just a monarch. He was right Rhaenys was not a Targaryen, right Rhaegar was planning a coup, probably eventually right about Rhaella cheating, and right about Tywin and the Lannisters; his former best friend and Aerys most trusted actual son Jaime. All things to make him justifiably paranoid.

[@HillsAliveYT]

I don't know how I feel about most of these theories, but I definitely agree Aerys wasn't mad, at least not in the way that a lot of people think. He was rightfully paranoid and after spending his entire life being told he was the most important person alive, he became a truly sadistic narcissist.

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

@@HillsAliveYT did you have specific questions about the theories I could answer?

[@made-line7627]

@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 What makes you think most of these theories? How come you think Rhaenys is still alive, and what makes you think she is the daughter of Arthur and Elia? And where do you think the real Quentyn is? Obviously nothing's set in stone until the final books come out, though your theories are definitely the most out-there ones I've heard. I'm curious as to what makes you think all this. Cheers! ☮️

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

@@made-line7627 the real Quentyn is in ?Norvos? with his mother’s family, sir-not-appearing-in-this-film. As Preston Jacobs made me realize (though he doesn’t believe it or hasn’t thought of it yet) recently Quentyn is described like “young GRRM” so Quentyn going to war while realQuentyn staying home mirrors GRRM not going to war while a kid who looks just like him does. Can’t really think of a better reason for giving us the “Doran’s wife wanted to take her son” story other than that she did do that and Quentyn is fake. Especially with him giving Daenerys a hostage of Quentyn, it feels like a sacrifice pawn move; make her think she has leverage when she doesn’t actually. You hadn’t given any response to the Ramsey trueborn, so I hadn’t thought you were interested; I’ll continue the theory making after Rhaenys birth/escape. Running out of time today, be back to finish later, for now quick clues. Tywin’s not as bad as assumed (Tyrion talking to his shadow thinking it’s Tywin, but really him; “the other” psychology.) Westeros uses body doubles for Noble children: Marcella/Lannisport cousin, Bran Rickon/Walder kids (in practice ,sorta, the Miller’s kids), Joffery/whipping boy, Rob/Theon, Margaery/cousin, Sansa Ayra/Jeyne. Aegon survived then shouldn’t Rhaenys? Tywin id’d the bodies, we are told Rhaenys was “definitely “ dead… so definitely alive. Mance sings Dornishman’s Wife, possibly a song Jon had never heard, therefore new and Mance’s personal history. Lancelot and Guinevere, “A Handmaid’s Tale”, Oedipus Smell clues, Rhaenys isn’t, Aegon is. Peaches and how peaches work.

[@made-line7627]

@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 What's the thing with the peaches haha? Oh, I didn't realise you'd responded about Ramsay being trueborn, sorry! I'd love to hear more about that. I actually don't mind your theory that Rhaenys could still be alive, and potentially be Sarella/Alleras. Does the timeline add up? And I also don't mind your theory about the real Quentyn being in Norvos with his mother. The whole thing with Doran's wife just being in Norvos, with little explanation, is pretty suss. I don't agree with some of your theories, though they're definitely thought-provoking. One of the theories I'm least sold on is Rhaenys being the daughter of Elia and Arthur Dayne. What makes you think that?

[@MadameCorgi]

Dr Bashir!

[@amterasutenma2547]

What if Dorian Martell is trying to bring back the Blackfyre's and end House Targaryen with Aegon?

[@thelastbrickbender2139]

I mean I agree Doran’s plans are incredibly stupid and doomed to fail, but if as you and many others are proposing he was actually fully aware of the dangers involved and actually planned for them to fail, it just seems even more stupid for him to actually send his children on these missions and why doesn’t he at least give them hints as to his true motives, like the best outcome would obviously be them returning without success, but the others are an alliance with the Targaryens, which he doesn’t actually want and would have to find a way back out of, or far worse and more likely, his children end up dead or hostages to be used against him, like if Doran was actually this galaxy brained individual, why would he actually send his children on these suicide missions, to me the only thing that even remotely makes sense is that he actually wants them to succeed

[@williamjones1563]

There was a signed and sealed letter.

[@Blake84838]

I dislike the Quenton chapters looking back its a story about a person set up for failure failing and I don't know how interesting of a story that can actually be. While it's a clear subversion of the usual hero's journey arc it's rather ham-fisted all the way through that this is a "bad idea" At least with the Ned / Robb subversions you think they may win at certain points one never truly gets that feeling with Quenton; besides maybe joining the windblown. It also really sullies Doran as a character because how can one look at the "I can get you to Volantis but from there it's up to you" and still consider him cunning. If he's heard about danys Slaver Bay's campaign it's impossible he hasn't heard about the total war conditions it created and both the land route "Demon Road" and sea route "Summer Sea to the south of Volantis" are notoriously dangerous. It's much more likely he ends up enslaved/killed by Mantarys or basilisk pirates than ever reaches Meereen. He should've at least sent agents (that arent his core familial unit) to see if dany even intended to migrate to Westors or at least remains unmarried given that has a good chance of not being the case given medieval marriage alliance politics.

[@Blake84838]

Also rereading a Clash of Kings he seems to accept the Myrcella to Trystane betrothal (chapter 20) even prior to Renly's death (Chapter 33) which seems absurd even from a winning side perspective. Tywin prior to Renly's death and the Tyrell alliance did not seem like the winning horse to bet on. Stannis being able to simply seize the capital in Tywin's absence seems to be an accepted fact by both the lannisters and house Baratheon of Dragonstone, Renly was marching up the Roseroad with absolutely massive 80-100k host, and, all hope of peace with the Stark-Tully alliance was smashed with Ned's execution. It took several absolutely massive strokes of good luck for the lannisters to claw themselves back from this weak position: Balon directing his years-long resentment towards losing his ill-thought-out rebellion on the starks, Lysas betrayal via neutrality, the full depth of Rooses boltons betrayal, Stannis sailing for Storms end instead of kings landing, along with Renlys impossible assassination

[@laurelsilberman5705]

God every time Harry Lloyd’s face is on screen I get very conflicted horny feelings. Like Viserys is a freaking psychopath in the show, pitiable and cruel, irredeemable, and yet that FUCKING FACE😳like oh my god he is so beautiful as Viserys, and at this point I more so associate Harry Lloyd with his excellent narrations of the hedge knight series of books; he’s so charming and those books are such a delight to listen to, they really can bring me out of a slump when I’m feeling down because they’re like mini audio plays, and he does them beautifully. He’s a beautiful, beautiful man. Honestly when they showed Prince Rhaegar on GOT I was like 😐 That is not Prince Rhaegar, that’s “We have Rhaegar at home” compared to the gorgeous Harry Lloyd😂 I didn’t find him nearly as attractive, and they could have at least hidden the fact that they were clearly reusing Viserys’s wig😂 Sorry for leaving random thirst comments instead of reacting to your ideas; I really do love your videos. I’m just ovulating.

[@billychops1280]

You can’t really blame Rhaegar for not falling head over heels for Elia, it was arranged and all knew there was no love in it

[@HillsAliveYT]

Oh I don't blame him for that, I just blame him for all of his other colossal fuckups and weird as hell creep behavior.

[@billychops1280]

@@HillsAliveYT well he was definitely not normal from the second he was born, everything that happened to him in life was something no man can try to understand, he was born during a night where half his family died, he grew up to be well read but out of nowhere decided to be a warrior, he obviously shrouded himself in prophecy and magic and mystery, All and all he was a super weird guy, but had he been allowed to choose his own wife, a lot of things that happened, may not have, especially if he actually wed Cerci since the Lannisters are quite fertile and healthy (save Tyrion) plus Cerci actually liked Rhaegar so the incest may not have happened, but ig what I’m trying to say is that if you go back far enough it’s 90% Aerys’s fault

[@HillsAliveYT]

@@billychops1280 I mean we're all entitled to our opinions but to say that Rhaegar only made his bad decisions because of his terrible father or defective wife and he would have been better off with Cersei of all people is really removing a lot of his personal responsibility for being a complete dickhead to a lot of innocent bystanders in service of his own vanity at nearly every opportunity.

[@billychops1280]

@@HillsAliveYT well without his father creating all of the obstacles he wouldn’t have done a bunch of the things he did do, rhaegar was dumb in his pursuit of prophecy there is no doubt, but he was sorta pushed down that path by his father who constantly undermined everyone he saw as a threat

[@HillsAliveYT]

@@billychops1280 Yeah, well I admittedly do not like Rhaegar at all and given that he was an adult and strangely narcissistic I tend to blame him for his own actions.

[@luisa.acevedo3326]

Doran is a fool, a deconstructin of the scheming Lord. He's is going to lose everything to his schemes, after that probably go full Toad of Dorne and challenge Daenerys, this man will get a dragon killed even if it means his doom. Maybe a cousin will take over Dorne later. When you have taken the road of vengeance better dig two holes one for your enemy and one for yourself.

[@c.w.8200]

So I'm not the only one who thought it's incredibly odd that Arianne wants to be queen so badly, I'd be like: No thanks dad, let me rule my own country already, who wants to be a decorative womb?

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah it's super weird, I mean I could MAYBE get the appeal if Elia didn't exist, but when you're looking at a choice between ruling Dorne in your own right or being put in the position where you and your children could become hostages and violently die because you have almost no power, the notion that Arianne would even want to be a queen or Doran would want that for her makes less than no sense.