The Two Kingdom Paradigm & Escondido Theology

This is a lecture on two kingdom theology which discusses the Lutheran approach in relation to theologians at Westminster Seminary in Escondido, CA.

[@UriesouBrito]

Jordan, this was superb! Thanks for your academic labors!

[@frankopinions4448]

I felt this in the URCNA. This video is so helpful. I almost got to go to Escondido, but the Lord moved and changed many things. I feel like I wasted over a decade in this.

[@tropicalpines4585]

Wow. This is my first time experiencing Jordan Cooper’s KZbin comments section. Yikes! In regards to the video, this was a very helpful critique. I’ve had a hard time putting my thumb on it, but from the little I knew it did seem like R2K was taking some Lutheran terms and co-opting them to fit into a framework that neither Luther nor Calvin agreed with. I appreciated you and the man in the audience sharing that insight.

[@adrielsanchez963]

Appreciated your critique, Jordan, and your willingness to affirm some of the positives while raising your concerns. As an “R2K” guy (although I don’t like the label too much), I have a couple thoughts: VanDrunen, Horton, et al. recognize that they’re working with the two kingdoms doctrine in a different historical context. At one point in describing Luther’s view, you acknowledged that it worked in the context of Christendom, and that a part of the doctrine was tied up with that cultural context. It seems to me that VanDrunen has acknowledged this with regard to his own view (he also is clear that it’s not to be confused with Luther’s 2k, because there are differences). IMO, these differences are necessitated in part by our context. We’re all seeking to apply the “magisterial” doctrine in a context that wasn’t the same as the magisterial reformers. VanDrunen is also willing to critique inconsistencies in the doctrine’s application on the basis of Scripture. I sympathize with your concern regarding diaconal work and the church in society. I think we can see both sides of the issue here. If the church’s mandate is the Great Commission, central to which is the proclamation of the gospel, then charity severed from proclamation is a kind of Protestant liberalism. However, I personally believe that service in the community is a great bridge for gospel proclamation, and thus a way for us to engage in evangelism and adorn our preaching. The danger on the one hand is inactivity, and the danger on the other hand is confusing cultural work with the kingdom of God and work of the Great Commission. God bless you and your work.

[@lc-mschristian5717]

Thank you. Now I have a clearer understanding of the Reformed 2 kingdom teaching. God's peace be with you.

[@jdahlxn]

What resources would you recommend for: -The Lutheran approach to 2K -The Lutheran understanding of the cultural mandate/probationary periods/etc in Eden

[@NnannaO]

There are a couple of other videos on his channel related to the topic. Aside from that, I don't think I can be of much assistance.

[@josiajones9774]

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of Christ. We Christians should be getting involved in all forms of government, we should be teaching the nations and discipeling them as nations.

[@jackcrow1204]

You are assuming that revelation 11:15 is in reference to this age Some would say that is a reference to the age to come

[@josiajones9774]

@@jackcrow1204 Absolutely no assumption on my part. Jesus said that the kingdom was coming when some of the first-century Christians would still be alive. Matt 16:27,28

[@jackcrow1204]

@@josiajones9774 I believe the kingdom came in the first century You are assuming it eradicated the kingdom of this world and transformed it into the kingdom of our lord in the first century

[@josiajones9774]

@@jackcrow1204 No, I'm not assuming anything, Jesus said it would and it did. Judaism and the temple were destroyed, and Old Pagan Rome began to be overtaken by the saints thus we have Christendom.

[@NoKingButChrist1689]

Not a lutheran but I'm looking forward to listening Dr. Cooper work this out.

[@NoKingButChrist1689]

Just finished up. Thank you Dr. Cooper for the clarity. Good work

[@jgeph2.4]

Kline made this distinction before VanDrunen and in my opinion influenced his thinking . Both of which I agree with for what it’s worth . Kline would call it cult and culture describing the two kingdoms .

[@johntobey1558]

Meredith Kline taught at Gordon -Conwell Theological Seminary. This is much, much more Historic going back to the 1960's on tge South Hamilton, Massachusetts amd was popular in lecture halls at : Trinity Evangelical Seminary, Fuller Thelogical Seminary before it was ever written about at Westminster Thelogical Seminary. How could you possibly describe this without talking about Abraham Kuyper. Very , very limited Lutheran perspective here. Very poorly researched. What about James Montomery Boice. Phil Ryken, Kevin vanhoozer and DavidF.Wells Ph.d.

[@Narojo91]

I agree with your critique of covenant seminaries teaching on Two kingdoms theology, at least from the perspective of the students. as a graduate from there, it was something that vexed me.

[@drb8786]

I know this video is fairly old but could you do a rebuttal of Greg Boyd and his view on Romans 13? I believe he is a anabaptist and he holds to the view that Christians should not affiliate with the government at any level. What are you views on his View?

[@richardtallach7104]

I think Reformed Theology usually makes a distinction between the Probation of the Tree (Covenant of Works) and the Cultural Mandate. Adam's "task" in the CoW was to avoid eating from the Tree. Then Man would build a godly civilisation on Earth by following the Creation/Cultural Mandate.

[@richardtallach7104]

The Escondido Theology seems to be a reaction to Theonomy, etc.

[@marlineharrold1937]

excellent video... Thanks a lot. :)

[@pacman0712]

love the talk but I keep hearing a clicking sounds like a pen button. Very bothersome

[@dmustakasjr]

So you kind of offhand mention that John Frame did an unfair critique of R2K theology but your conclusion at around 37:55 seems agree largely with JF, abit less on the scholarly side of the breakdown.

[@origamitraveler7425]

Similar conclusions can be arrived at through different methods

[@ronniemurphy2124]

Beatitudes: Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Beatitudes: Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. ~~~~ If the Apostles did not know the difference then what did Peter Ruchman know?

[@Nnamwerd]

This seems (broadly speaking) quite appealing to me. The Church as an explicit in-group for Christians. The political/cultural/social role that the Western Church, in particular the conservative evangelical church, has played in culture in the last 40 years or so has discredited evangelical Protestantism in the eyes of many younger Christians. Thus the draw many have towards Eastern Orthodoxy. I don't agree with all of it, but I definitely see the appeal.

[@Magnulus76]

Reformed Transformationalism loses the Gospel in exchange for focusing on a "cultural mandate" and overbearing sense of Christ's kingship, which is changed from a spiritual reality to a political program.

[@scythermantis]

@@Magnulus76 Yes, I think the original commenter here was a bit mistaken to somehow compare Orthodoxy of all things; after all what was 'Christendom' and hasn't he ever heard "to be Orthodox is to be Russian and to be Russian is to be Orthodox"?

[@mitchellscott1843]

My understanding of Judaism vis a vie covenants is that the Mosaic Covenant is not a covenant with a individual person (Moses) rather all the people of Israel.

[@DrMJS]

My PhD is in Learning Sciences. I started taking and ended up dropping the 500 level basic grad course in communication. In part because the discipline of Communication used some terms we in education use, to mean something different - not ENTIRELY different, but enough that it made me dizzy!

[@johntobey1558]

Micheal Hirton was influenced by: Meredith Kline, David F.Wells and James Montgomery Boice and is friemds with Kevin De young and Rick Phillips.

[@ebiclerk6471]

Nice one

[@ThomasCranmer1959]

Should communism be the state religion?

[@adrianjimenez6034]

To the guy who comments at minute 42. Christ did die for the elect… Show me in scripture where he did not please.

[@MortenBendiksen]

The kingdom of God is within. Seems obvious.

[@matswinther8991]

Augustine teaches that there are two cities: the City of God and the Worldly City. We belong *either* to the former *or* the latter. These are invisible (i.e. spiritual) communities, neither identifiable as the church nor as culture and society. Thus, a citizen belonging to the City of God could be a cultural worker whereas a citizen belonging to the Worldly City could be an official of the church. Nobody is a citizen of both. It appears that Luther's and Cooper's teaching that we are "in both" contradicts Augustine. Thus, the two cities (kingdoms) are projected onto the worldly condition. The consequence could be that the Christian message becomes politicized and loses its heavenly mooring.

[@imageinkdesign]

This seems like a Jesuit creation. Both dismissive and watering down of Christ and God’s Kingdom.

[@CarpentersMinistry1]

I can't handle anymore Lutheran comments. Serve Christ and His kingdom not man or man's theology.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

Why are you even here?

[@CarpentersMinistry1]

​@@yellowblackbird9000 that is a great question. I'll be honest I think I probably miss typed something, cause I would have never railed on my Lutheran brethren. Thanks for commenting on it, I appreciate that being pointed out to me. Please forgive me.

[@GibborIsrael]

I TRIED WATCHING BUT ITS TAKING FOREVER FOR HIM TO BRING THE BIBLE OUT..I MEAN HOW CAN U TEACH ABOUT THINGS THAT'S IN THE BIBLE WITHOUT THE BIBLE?!

[@rorshakks]

Wow, look at that hip hairdo and beard. Kinda helps out the stuffy clerical collar. You were never Reformed, Jordan, as hard as you try to prove your Lutheran conversion was wise.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

rorshakks Very helpful comment. Thanks.

[@rorshakks]

Good, maybe we can get you back to being a regular Joe and not so much of a trend-sucking dilettante.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

rorshakks Please, insult me more. It really helps to make your theological position more appealing.

[@rorshakks]

Clearly I haven't stated a theological position. Your critique isn't relevant or interesting.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

​@@rorshakks cope and seethe, Lutheranism > Reformed.