The Two Types Of Puzzle Games

[@vizthex]

he should've called warrior sheep "battle rams". would've made the game *at least* 15% better imo.

[@dandymcgee]

This is an extremely accurate description of what Jonathan Blow often tries to say in his many hour talks and streams, but communicated in under 10 minutes. I'm impressed.

[@Artindi]

Why thank you, I'll pretend that didn't make my head the size of a watermelon. ;)

[@SnakeEngine]

If Blow needs more than 10 minutes to explain it, then he doesn't understand his own puzzles.

[@tymondabrowski12]

​@@SnakeEngine or he's bad at explaining. I know the common wisdom is that if you can't explain it, you don't understand it, but I disagree with it. One's brain doesn't have to think in words, and translating from the mental map to language is a different skill than creating that mental map.

[@SnakeEngine]

@@tymondabrowski12 Actually no, the better you understand something, the easier and shorter it becomes to explain. You are always bad at explaining if you don't understand the thing that you are describing well enough.

[@faik...]

I think no matter how easy it is to play earlier levels, it's always a good idea to add save slots. When you want to show the game to someone, or multiple people are playing on the same machine, just replaying the levels that are already completed doesn't feel the same.

[@microdavid7098]

very interesting review. I love puzzles that are very "you think of what to do next" rather than you try to do something until it succeeds. A mix of both is usually healthy, but people usually gravitate towards the latter a lot more

[@Artindi]

Glad you enjoyed and found it interesting! I tend to enjoy that type more as well. But I think you are right, most probably do. :)

[@Daniel_WR_Hart]

The former is a skill that you can improve at, while the latter is a mindless grind

[@RobLang]

I didn't know anything about puzzle game creation (although I probably did watch Jonas's video) but I now feel like I see them in a new light. Thank you, this was a great video!

[@Artindi]

Good to hear! I feel a little validated now. :D

[@PlabsUnderscore]

Great analysis! I agree, solving a puzzle should make you feel invigorated to keep going, like a boost to your ego! it's a problem when you just end up feeling dumb or annoyed with the solution.

[@Artindi]

And sometimes it just depends on who you are, a lot of people like the more simple Sudoku like puzzles. :D Thanks for watching! :D

[@PlabsUnderscore]

@@Artindi True, you can't please everyone! Thank you for posting great content!

[@dandymcgee]

I think based on your argument, Pusheep could be fixed with better level design, right? I don't think the creator should necessarily abandon it or move on, but rather try a bit harder to rearrange the levels to create that Aha! moment. The technology is perfectly suitable to making an amazing puzzle game.

[@Artindi]

You are probably right, it may need a slight restructure in perhaps the board that is being played on, but with the rules provided and some thought there is opportunity for sure. :)

[@welkin25]

This is very enlightening and I think you nailed it. Thank you so much for sharing.

[@ink_cube]

6:50 well, about that: this genera of very casual puzzle game does exist, but I do agree that is a very small market, and if someone decides to make games in this niche market I think they should reduce their expectations, there are quite a few games like this, and from my perspective it doesn't seems like this game is a failure, just not that outstanding but still neat game overall.

[@Artindi]

Well said, the type of game you make is going to really only attract that type of crowd. :)

[@noobemath]

This video is invaluable. Thank you.

[@theothetorch8016]

This video helped me realize some things that are saving me time. Thanks.

[@Artindi]

Happy I could help! :D

[@Bronze_Age_Sea_Person]

I want to integrate some puzzle minigames to my RPG, using very simple mechanics, and your insights were very interesting. One thing I was noticing while watching other puzzle minigames in other genera, compared to the puzzle game genera itself, is how many of those puzzles not only lacked this "aha" moment, but also, if abstracted, as if you made the "Minimun Viable Product" of that minigame in your head, it was literally a middle or high-school math problem. One example are the lots of puzzle minigames in Genshin Impact, which when abstracted, they felt like variations of the Problem of Apollonius where your character or the puzzle object had to be at or near the tangent of the circular radius of another puzzle object, and some included timing as another "dimension", which you could abstract as a growing line or circle's radius. Also, it was always circles and lines, never other complicated geometrical form such as parabolas or hyperbolas or ellipses, despite them having really fun properties that could be used in puzzles. That gave me an interesting insight, What other math problems could be transformed into puzzle mini-games? How many puzzle games are just math problems with nice graphics? I remember even math exams sometimes were fun to solve back when I was in school when they had those "aha" moments, and it felt really good when I could use the solution of a previous question as a "puzzle piece" in my head to figure out how to solve a harder question, and I got good degrees to.

[@Artindi]

And interesting thought, I suppose in most logic and therefor math problem could be turned into a puzzle in one way or another, because they are basically the same thing. Then I suppose the only issue would be to make sure it was interesting, fun and satisfying enough to actually solve. Cool insights! :D

[@hungrysparrow]

If you like puzzle games 'Dungeon Blocks' adds a couple of twists to the Sokoban genre.

[@Artindi]

Cool! Might have to check it out, thanks! :D

[@vizthex]

I bought Snakebird on Steam awhile back, but refunded it because it just felt.... *off* somehow. I love puzzle games, so I knew it wasn't the difficulty or level design or anything. but now, i realize that it's because it felt "mobile-esque", as you said. Swiping to move would work basically perfectly for the game, and each level is only minute or two long (though Portal's levels are about that long at the start, but 3D games don't work on mobile so it's better for Portal to be a PC release).

[@Rikri]

The first dozen levels are short, but the difficulty ramps up dramatically past that point (to about the point of SSR, in my opinion). It's one of my favorite puzzle games, and I'd recommend giving it another shot.

[@vizthex]

@@Rikri that doesn't magically make it stop feeling like a mobile game port lol i might finish it eventually though.

[@Artindi]

What do you think? Do mobile style games do well on steam?

[@LexiLunarpaw]

When i think of mobile games I think of Free to Play Skinner box Gacha Mechanics and Hostile Micro-transactions that ruin an otherwise Great experience...

[@KlausWulfenbach]

In terms of commercial success or failure, I'd say that the biggest problem with the game is that it's a puzzle game at all. It's not that there's no demand for puzzle games, but the supply far exceeds the demand in the current market. It's the same with platformers and match-3. There are just too many indie platformers, puzzle games, and match-3 according to data mining. If Shovel Knight and Braid were released today instead of years ago, they'd be likely to fail. Celeste looked and felt just different enough to most indie platformers and had a free prototype with almost identical feel that everyone could try, so it just barely made it. Hollow Knight borrows not just from the Metroidvania subgenre but Soulslike games. Spelunky 2 is a sequel to a game released quite a while ago, and has infinite replayablity. Dead Cells is a Metroidvania and a Roguelike. It's not that an excellent pure 2D platformer or an excellent pure 2D puzzle game absolutely cannot succeed. But there are so many excellent pure platformers and excellent pure puzzle games already available that new ones are going to find it more and more difficult.

[@Artindi]

Great point! This is why I always emphasize the need for new and unique mechanics, otherwise why would someone play your game over any of the other games out there? Ya know? Great comment! :)

[@4videovideo]

I disagree about the quality that's out there. I'd say there are very, very few great puzzle games. It's just that a great puzzle game is incredibly difficult to design.

[@AhimtarHoN]

While the analysis is very good, I am quite sure this is not the reason for bad sales. 1) This is something that players discover while playing - after they already made the purchase. 2) Indie puzzle games on Steam are an extremely oversaturated market, while being among the least popular genres among buyers.

[@Artindi]

both great points that I failed to make, Thanks! :D

[@phantomcrave6525]

Where can I learn more about this? Any suggestions

[@Artindi]

More about puzzle games?

[@VerMishelb]

It's interesting how sometimes a regular player doesn't even notice the second layer you have shown. I didn't know why the first portal game was so enjoyable to play even though it looks like a bootleg portal 2 in comparison before.

[@Artindi]

Right? I loved the first portal when I played it. And the more time that passes and the more it gets analyzed, it continues to prove how well thought out it was.

[@phantomcrave6525]

the second layer "game mechanics nuances"

[@Artindi]

@@phantomcrave6525 That concept was created by me. However if you want to learn about similar concepts I would just watch all the other video essays on what makes a good puzzle. Or play some of the classic puzzle games and see if you can spot them.

[@blarvinius]

No, you are not wrong.

[@dandymcgee]

I also think the music choice in the Pusheep trailer is extremely bizarre and off-putting. When I play a puzzle game I want a serene, meditative experience, not the fast-paced, hill-billy ho-down that the music is presenting it as.

[@noobemath]

hill-billy ho-down is my new favorite word 🤣🤣🤣

[@skychan5074]

I don’t agree with your take at all. I think the no.1 reason for puzzle games (or games in general) to fail is the lack of emotional sparks. Great puzzle games can usually fulfill this requirement by either providing surprises or evoking other emotions. The herding game you showed in the video tbh wasn’t packed with any obvious emotions.

[@Artindi]

This is a great observation, and something I hadn't really considered. Thanks! :D

[@welkin25]

I think "providing surprises" is exactly what he means when he talks about the second layer?

[@EdKolis]

Maybe Pusheep isn't a puzzle game, and is instead a turn based strategy game?