The Ultimatum #18 - (Shanique & Randall Fight) - Therapist Reaction

Dr. Kirk Honda reacts to The Ultimatum (Netflix). Includes clips from The Ultimatum.
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Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
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[@mariahburns1900]

I think Shanique was feeling insecure and resentful of Madelyn and wanted to hear Randell say something negative about her to make Shanique feel better and less threatened. Randell has expressed a lot of criticism toward Shanique, but she hasn’t heard him criticize Madelyn and that feels very threatening to her, as if he likes Madelyn more. She is asking him to say something critical of Madelyn to help her regulate her insecure emotions.

[@calliew311]

But, it's really difficult to point out probs of the person they spend 3 weeks with because they were both new and learning things about one another and also on their best behavior.

[@mariahburns1900]

@@calliew311 Yeah, it wasn't a rational thing for her to request. Just explaining what I think the emotions were behind it, definitely not defending it.

[@BarbaraThorndyke]

The hidden question was "what are Madelyn's flaws because you have nothing critical to say about her ever?" It sounds ridiculous saying out loud but I think Randall understood it which is why he brushed it off.

[@sarahsmith3682]

Oh that makes so much sense!!

[@xxxmochibaby]

Yes this is so obvious. I don’t understand how he doesn’t pick up on these glaringly obvious nuances sometimes. It’s frustrating and concerning from a therapeutic standpoint imo

[@eh1126]

@@xxxmochibaby i was thinking the exact same thing lol it’s so obvious that she was getting triggered because Randall was refusing to say anything bad about Madelyn.

[@libertyclaudia2451]

@@xxxmochibaby I think it's because he pauses and comments and praises and comments and sometimes doesn't react to the entire contextual conversation as a whole. Sometimes that misses nuance but sometimes it allows him to break down very specific details other people might brush over. You win some you lose some

[@sunnypie2]

@@xxxmochibaby In my opinion I think he’s pacing himself in the therapist chair and how he would question a couple if they were in a room with him. So it’s more of a professional analysis rather than a friend talking to them

[@alice4artz]

About the "Dragging someone on this show" thing that you've mentioned a couple of times in these reactions - from an interview that April gave it sounded like that's not exactly what happens on this show. She said the producers actually found her on social media without knowing anything about her relationship and then put the idea of the ultimatum forward. Both partners obviously had to agree and sign the contract. From what she said it sounded like she hadn't given an ultimatum before the show. That could explain why the apparent "ultimatum-givers" on this show seem to get angry at their partners even though they gave the ultimatum - they probably went into the show thinking they would come out strong and still in love (that's also something April mentioned) but instead they feel betrayed because the other person is really getting into the other connection. This sounds pretty plausible to me, because how in the world would the producers find actual couples who have given an ultimatum and would be willing to go on a reality TV show?

[@sunnypie2]

Wow didn’t know that. I got the impression Jake was looking for an escape route. So it didn’t matter. And she knew he was y into it. But he wanted a baby with her. So that got me confused

[@calliew311]

Ok, but they knew at the end of the show they would end up engaged or going their separate ways. At least that's what Nick and his wife said several times during the first few days with the people. So, why would they want to go on a show and put their relationship under this type of stress? I would never do that.

[@alice4artz]

@@calliew311 When I watch the show it feels very scripted and heavily edited to me. So I wouldn't really be surprised if the cast members were only acting very serious about it but thinking "Nobody can force me to say broken up after the show" and "Nobody can force me to get married if I get engaged". I think that's what happened with Shanique and Randall, didn't it? They got engaged on the show but then broke up after and now they're back together but not engaged. Obviously I don't know what they were all thinking but it just sounds more plausible than people willingly putting their relationship under this type of stress and taking the outcome seriously - I totally agree with you, I would also never do that

[@iusescotchtape]

When I watched the show, I felt like Shanique would have confrontations with her partner when she was drinking. She seemed tipsy in this scene. (I'm not excusing her actions) I think she works hard to seem composed and doesn't address issues when she's sober. When she's drinking, her insecurities surface. That's why there's always so much alcohol available on reality shows. I also think that's a part of why she isn't making sense in this argument.

[@calliew311]

100%! Same with Madelyn. Let's get them drunk then make them talk about awkward things!

[@magikenzee]

Oh wow the preoccupied attachment example was literally just me 😅

[@honeycrawford3198]

Shanique thinks Randall is idealizing Madeline and hypercritical of her. So she's trying to lead him to some fair criticism of Madeline to make her point. She could stand to be more direct with her feelings, but I think that is the gist of it.

[@dedu98]

Thanks Stacy and Kirk.

[@moraewe]

I listened to your videos and podcast throughout my pregnancy. Now, your videos and podcasts are the thing that helps my newborn fall asleep. Many thanks to you from a tired new mom and a new little deserving listener 💚

[@sylviaalvarez2626]

ooo I'm pregnant right now, I sure hope my baby will fall asleep to Dr Kirk once he's earthside!! Then we will both be nice and soothed! Lol

[@hollyblair5778]

This is so incredibly frustrating to watch. She won't just say what she's thinking and feeling ("I'm scared you like her more than me.") and is hostile and shuts down because he can't read her mind. I used to do this and there was almost an exact sentence I wanted them to say but I wouldn't give them any hints towards it. It's an impossible game to play. I've also been on the other side of this and dated people who did this and it was so anxiety inducing and you feel like you're walking on eggshells. I think she *is* acting childish. It's probably not helpful in the moment to connect with her but I totally understand why he said that.

[@eh1126]

We could say the same thing about Randall not being able to pick up that she’s feeling insecure because he’s willing to criticize her in front of her family but has zero negative things to say about Madelyn. It was incredibly frustrating that he didn’t pick up on that lol

[@Sweetestdiva14]

@@eh1126 but why should he have to “pick up” on what she’s trying to say when she’s typically very straight forward with what she wants to talk about?

[@calliew311]

@@eh1126 and I think it wouldn't look good to Shanique's family if he went in there talking mad shit about a woman none of them know, because they would think, I wonder what he was telling her about Shanique and their problems? Or I would be thinking that.

[@BarbaraThorndyke]

@@calliew311 I think there's a difference from an intellectual criticism (she's a morning person and I'm a night person) and talking shit (she's super annoying in the morning).

[@unicornL]

So is it weird that Shanique kinda did something physical w Zay, but is acting super insecure w Randall? It's a weird double standard from Shanique tbh.

[@bigpapi88]

cant wait for when he covers episode 10, you know its gonna be spicyyyyyyyy

[@dahliaholm3637]

i thought it was pretty obvious that she was 1. trying to get him to actively think about negative qualities about her so that the negatives about her are more on the forefront of his mind and 2. seeking reassurance that they he doesn't think she's perfect

[@Ava-zy4rr]

That was my first read on that too. She is likely trying to make him "realised" how flawed Madeleine really is, to keep him from putting her on a pedestal, because it probably feels like there would be no chance to compete with that... And there is a real threat of that happening, with a new, exciting person vs the established but problematic relationship. It's really sad to watch her almost creating the very problem she is trying to avoid or solve with the way she goes about it.

[@onedirectionlover317]

I think Shanique hurt by the criticism she's receiving about things she needs to work on, and since she feels Randall is more into Madelyn, she wants to hear that he can criticize Madelyn too, and not just Shanique, because if he can only criticize her but not Madelyn, then he evidently prefers Madelyn (or she could accuse Randall of having rose-tinted glasses about Madelyn and of unfairly criticizing Shanique from that perspective). Like oof, if he can't say anything negative about Madelyn but will tear into Shanique about her flaws, then ofc she'd be insecure. How could she NOT be? And while ofc he knows the negative side of Shanique more b/c they've been together longer, what partner wants to hear their SO compare them to someone else and praise that other person? Everyone should realize that ofc they'd have fewer negative things to say about a new person, and saying that "this new person is better" to a current partner doesn't help. Yeah, the longer I watch this, the more I see Randall as incredibly insensitive. To say that in front of her family? Like....that's just next level awful. Might as well end it, at that point, given how little respect he clearly seems to have for her. No wonder she was so bothered. I mean, I'm not saying she addressed it in a functional or healthy way, but frankly I can't imagine any self-respecting woman standing for that.

[@ahmorgan]

This is stupid, she wanted them to go on the show. Why is she focused on him saying "negative" things about Madelyn? How does that make her relationship with Randall better? Just more proof how immature Shanique is

[@tereza8052]

@@ahmorgan Just maybe consider that she went there because she was hoping he would realize he wanted to marry her - instead, he connected well with Madelyn. Of course, it's hurtful to her (I'm not saying she's reasonable, but I have compassion for her).

[@ahmorgan]

@@tereza8052 I did, until she started cursing and getting aggressive. Very unnecessary. If a man reacted that way we the viewers would call that person abusive. Justifiably so

[@tereza8052]

@@ahmorgan True, the aggression was uncalled for!

[@calliew311]

I disagree. I would be unimpressed if my husband and I went on a show like this and he was just trashing the other woman. I understand what Shanique was trying to do, but Randall doesn't even know Madelyn, not really. Why would he have anything bad to say about her? And she should have owned her feelings instead of playing games. She could've said, "well, you are always criticizing me (because that's what she thinks) and you have no critiques for her, and that hurts my feelings." Instead, she wants him to cut Madelyn down and talk shit to make her (Shanique) feel better. That's a different kind of fucked up. They both are not ready for marriage. He could've also been a lot more attuned to what she wanted because it was super obvious.

[@jamie6639]

I love when you explain more in detail about the attachment styles based on some models in the reality shows. Thank you!

[@roryspickett9881]

I guess this into the ratio of positive interactions. Let's say the ratio is 15 positives to 1 negative. Then slowly tackling the one negative over years is doable. But if it was a reversed ratio then that's a huge amount of work over years. For Randall what is supposed to do here? He's being backed into a corner on all fronts in every conversation.

[@poponachtschnecke]

It surprises me how innocent Dr Honda can sometimes be in assuming the best of the people he's watching. Maybe it's because I've got insecure attachment issues, but I saw what Shanique was trying to do in this episode and the other one in which she says she said she expected Randall to essentially isolate from Madlyn in a corner.

[@shannontrent3702]

Truth! And also the way her family was reacting to what Randall would say. I don't think he was naive at all. I think he was being honest and her mom would trigger Shanique further by echoing what he'd say. No wonder Shanique was so insecure. He would just say "We didn't have a sexual relationship, but connected emotionally..." Her mom would make something of everything he said "Oooohh, Shanique, he said he enjoyed his time with her". Ok?

[@hollykerosec]

I’m wondering if for her, when she started asking things like “what can Madelyn work on”, it was her passive way of looking under the hood of his brain and seeing what SHE herself could work on, but it’s too scary to be vulnerable and ask that right out.

[@missincognito2666]

He’s asking what do you not like about her? And he’s not answering the question which makes her think he believes she’s perfect lol

[@dahlia8027]

I truly don't understand the appeal of Randall.. he's one of the most boring and emotionally dumb guys I've ever seen.. She's gorgeous and can definitely do better, why on earth is she attracted to him of all people?

[@esseff]

Can you please watch “I love a Mama’s Boy” and give us your analysis?

[@calliew311]

PUH-LEASE!

[@Kieslowski1]

time stamp for tiktok 30:44min

[@titanfa.1763]

When i do behaviors like these It's usually because i feel like if i ask directly they would just say that there is nothing to worry about and hide or not be self reflective enough to give me what i need to know So sometimes i feel the need to play an interogation game to force them to be truthful indirectly

[@andra9601]

Their arguments are a part of why I don’t want to be in a relationship that I keep trying to make work. It’s so stressful to be that way with a partner. Not trying to make the shoe fit anymore. I probably should not have this mindset, BUT I find it hard to imagine that my next relationship will have the vibe that these two have in terms of how they argue. And I have disorganized attachment but gained a lot of security over the past many years. So I could not go back to those arguments. Nope. Wishing the best for them though!

[@jclyntoledo]

You can find someone who has a lot of self awareness and is more of the secure attachment style. That's also a way someone can learn to be secure. I think I also have a disorganized attachment style based on what I know from my early childhood and how I used to be in romantic relationships/dating. I personally don't invite anyone into my life who fights dirty and isn't aware of their emotions or at least have the knowledge to know when to ask for some space to self reflect/think.

[@andra9601]

@@jclyntoledo true! I could. One of the main things about coming from disorganized attachment is that there is a fear of the attachment figure, and that can translate into fearing the partner. I still notice it for myself with people I get close to, so I’m not sure if it’ll ever go away. My speculation is that people with disorganized style have complex fear that is made up of fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, fear for their lives and fear of not existing/ being rendered invisible. I think that being in relationships with very secure and very consistent people would be best. I tend to think that people like that are more simple and basic and that feels relaxing to me. At the same time, I often wonder if being with someone who is earned secure (coming from any of the insecure attachment styles) would be best.. because I sometimes find secure people clueless and everything needs to be explained to them because they don’t have the know how or the hyper vigilance to pick up on potential red flags. Anyway, I am complex enough, and I don’t think there is room to date someone who has my issues or similar issues lol.. so it has to be someone who is very secure, or very earned secure. They would also have to be much more able bodied than me (I have disabilities) but not be someone who is totally ignorant to what it feels like to have health issues because people like that tend to be very ableist and they don’t even know it so it would be a lot of me having to explain to them all the ways in which they are ableist. 🤭.. and I’m also non binary and ace and neurodivergent so I have my work cut out for me. I get tired just thinking about dating tbh. I just tired myself by writing about it, hahahah! I hope you get into your healing journey if you haven’t started yet because attachment is soooo important. It’ll be a decade or more before you come out on the other side, depending on what you have going on, but it’s worth putting the effort in, consistently and doing deep dives at least by annually. Wishing you all the best!

[@poponachtschnecke]

I like how Shanique's shirt is just embracing the design flaw of shirt pucker, and making it the theme.

[@fruityeva]

Thank you for this video!🤗👏

[@Minagirl2000]

I think Shanique wants to know, if Madeline and her have the same things to work on and if so, she probably wants to know why Randall still favours Madeline, if she has similar things to work on?

[@tereza8052]

I think she just wants to hear that he doesn't think Madeline is perfect...

[@belladonnabudgets7362]

Ah, so the comparisonitis in Shanique is the issue, but it wasn't directly stated by her at the beginning.

[@ahmorgan]

@@tereza8052 Why does that matter though?

[@tereza8052]

@@ahmorgan Well, considering Shanique might feel pretty insecure now, so she is just looking for some kind of reassurance... we cannot know obviously what's in her head :)

[@ahmorgan]

@@tereza8052 but her aggression is completely uncalled for. If I was Randall that would be the end of any conversation with me. Who tolerates that kind of disrespect. Her insecurity is no excuse to treat him poorly. Too many men think it's acceptable even cute to deal with that kind of stuff.

[@kathelinetabuteau5309]

The last two minutes of this video would make a good “short” video.

[@c4arla]

a lot of ppl wont listen to you talk about your feelings

[@luizabakumenko]

Randall doesn’t understand that at first when you meet someone it always goes smooth and there are no problems. But after time you get to know a person more and things can come out, things that you didn’t expect. It’s like that honeymoon phase. But it doesn’t last forever. 3 weeks is nothing. You need like at least a year to be able to see things clearly and to understand if the person is suited for you or not. enough.

[@lyciumchld]

Appreciate the examination of attachment here. I'd been guessing that Shanique may have disorganized attachment and Randall may be a bit dismissive.

[@magnificentmarbles]

Thank you for this video, one of your best yet! This was really helpful to me to get an understanding of how one would work through these issues with a partner and has given me a lot to think about in terms of being honest about what I’m feeling and not coding it in terms that make me feel less vulnerable

[@abandonablesnowman]

Shanique doesn’t need to worry about Madlyn. Girl missing a whole vowel in her name

[@ahmorgan]

This is such a strange thing to be caught up on. Why do you care what Madelyn needs to work on? How's that going to help you in any way? Does him saying Madelyn needs to do (x,y, and z) make Shanique feel better? If so, that is pretty dumb

[@lavinder11]

Getting him to admit that Mad isn't perfect. He'd been comparing the two of them for the entire show.

[@calliew311]

@@lavinder11 which person on the show wasn't? They all did, that was almost what the show was about, keeping your current partner with the flaws and all (with hope of working on said flaws), or seeing if the grass really is greener on the other side.

[@martynaylfa1423]

I did it like recommended, he reassured me and I calmed. Well and later I found out he was cheating on me all along.

[@calliew311]

At least you did what was right. Some people are shitty and cheaters, but not all people cheat. So, next time, you'll still be doing the right thing, with hopefully, the right person!

[@Michele_224]

When you say "you need to be functional" are you saying be rational?

[@legzfalloffgirl5148]

I think he means helpful for the situation.

[@kristinrodier2217]

Functional is about the couple meeting each other’s needs.

[@magikenzee]

I need you to tell me something she's bad at or a reason why you don't want to be with her because I know a million reasons why you don't want to be its me and a million reasons why you think she's so great. Is what I thought she wanted to say

[@studiorestard]

Is this show worth to watch? I tried to, but it seemed so fake (=too american for me, sorry). I did like Love is blind.