The Utterly Breakable Jabul Ruins - Dungeon Design in Zelda (EoW)

[@tetra1767]

I really enjoy the Stilled Jabul Waters area, the navigation was fun! I never actually got the Crawltula echo, so I didn't have that cheese device, but the water blocks were definitely extremely helpful! Yo honestly I didn't even consider cheesing xD I don't ever really think about that when gaming, I guess I am too used to following the laid-out path! Great analysis, as always! your editing continues to impress me

[@davidbeer5015]

I think I used the Crawltula a few times, but I find myself often forgetting about them 😅

[@Spoonishpls]

This is why cheesing strats should never be counted as a negative. You choose to cheese or not. I didn't and had a blast. Those who did cheese didn't have fun. Instead of min-maxing games, just enjoy them. Don't see them as something to be conquered, but enjoyed. I knew I could cheese this dungeon or the Totk fire temple, but I didn't because I wanted to have fun, and I did. Game devs shouldn't have to put in unfun restrictions because someone can't stop themselves from cheesing. That just punishes everyone else

[@CaptBurgerson]

The important distinction between this, and say cheesing the Fire Temple of TOTK is that the way this game is designed, cheesing this dungeon can be dungeon completely by accident- which ruins it for people (as has been told to me was the case for multiple people, including other commenters of this video) The game teaches you early on to use echoes to reach new areas- that’s the main gameplay mechanic. People therefor doing that, using echoes to reach a high ledge, probably aren’t doing so with the intent to cheese the dungeon. They are just playing the game

[@EpicGamer10075]

I think this dungeon is a perfect cautionary tale about why you shouldn't have truly open-ended dungeons. We get enough openness in the overworld, and dungeons are meant to be more focused and linear. Openness *can* work in dungeons, as seen with the Jungle Temple, but a decent amount of openness there is really only there *if* you've played it before. Similar stuff with Sand Temple, with that main lock needing information spread around the dungeon, but there you still needed the most hidden echoes in the place.

[@tylerherr4288]

its a dungeon for petes sake not a department store where you can go where you need to go

[@StuartSimon]

I actually think that EoW got the balance between open world and sequential exploration absolutely correct. You could theoretically explore Faron, Eldin, and Hebra/Lanayru completely at this point, but of course you would later revisit them to complete their dungeons and post-dungeon material.

[@l9day]

When I first entered the dungeon, I activated the waypoint, triggered the foyer trap and fell, and immediately warped back up to the entry. I was halfway bedging across the hole when I felt like I would be missing something by skipping whatever the trap turned out to be. Throughout the game I avoided cheesing anything too badly just because it would be a value-losing proposition for the money I paid to play the game at all.

[@Dragynn999]

I want you to know that your Dungeon analysis videos really help me to put design ideas into words for a game that I am working on. Thanks Cap! Now... about this dungeon. Yea I share the same feeling as you since I cheesed the dungeon the first time around. Terminal Dungeons can work and I honestly would have loved if they, since they wanted to have the dungeon as open as it is, to have a gauntlet leading up to the Boss door. The Gauntlet could be incredibly hard without any pushed buttons while getting easier and easier the more buttons the player actually pushes. You know, from guaranteed game over to pushover. This would make repeat playthroughs interesting and likely spark the creativity and ambition of people like speedrunners.

[@TheIvoryDingo]

It's honestly stuff like this and TotK's Fire Temple that always make me a little sad with how good level design doesn't matter if a player has found a tool to cheese it. I understand that some find cheese tactics a "needed feature", but while I won't deny *some* wiggle room should be allowed, I don't think that that should apply to literally EVERYTHING within a game nor that it should allow you to completely dismiss entire parts of the game. I know that my stance may not necessarily be popular, but I've always preferred having to creatively use a few tools to get past a puzzle with only 1-3 solutions, rather than a bag of tools that's an ocean wide to solve problems that have more solutions than can practically be counted.

[@TrixyTrixter]

I completely agree

[@emidemi7211]

I think TotK suffers a lot more from this, though. Echoes' toolbox is big, but Tears' is INFINITELY big. I feel like, in general, Echoes is a lot more tasteful with how much cheese it gives you, which is a big part of why it feels better designed (in my opinion.)

[@tomgeserich2080]

I appreciate the burenia Soundtrack around the 14 minute mark, makes my heart as a metroid fun smile ❤

[@kaspauf06]

Woo hoo glad to see the nwxt one in this series, you do a great job with these!

[@goldmemberpb]

What they could have done was either put water falls on the walls to prevent crawltula cheeze or have it so that the big door up top needs you to press all the buttons. You then go through one big final puzzle to get the boss key.

[@UltimateTobi]

As for the dungeon order in EoW, I went with the one the journal suggested; Suthorn, Gerudo, Jabul, Eldin, Faron, Lanayru.

[@keylimepython641]

I didn't check the journal order, but my order was mostly the same except I did Faron after Lanayru. Much of my order wasn't pre-planned, but I did Gerudo before Jabul to get the soft bed, since beds are really nice in this game, and I did Faron after Lanayru to maybe give me more time to use the Lanayru echoes(Since Lanayru seemed to be the hardest place to visit for echoes without beating the dungeon)

[@tevinsandoval1904]

I was thinking as a way to prevent the cheesing would be to have a miniboss, that steals away the boss key in each room that you could encounter it in. the player fights it multiple times throughout the dungeon, and on the final encounter, the miniboss drops the key, allowing the player to enter the boss room. Having it so that the boss is encountered multiple times means that no matter how the player chooses to go, they will be forced to explore the whole dungeon to get the key. It would also help to add some more character to an otherwise lacking dungeon.

[@plasmacrowcodile9145]

@@tevinsandoval1904 We might see that idea be explored in the foreseeable future...

[@keylimepython641]

Didn't they do that with Manhandla in this game?

[@efad3215]

I think the dungeon boss works as it makes you think about your position in the arena a bit more than Talus did, as for the dungeon itself..... idk. It's nice to see an introduction to non-linearity in a dungeon, but maybe put required doors so you have to hit the switches and can't just cheese up?

[@kakarikokage2514]

I find it more interesting that people intentionally try to break the game. I prefer to try and overcome obstacles in the way they're intended. I know I can cheese things, but I'd rather not.

[@thevioletbee5879]

In this case sure. In TotK’s case, bomb flower buttons go brrrr

[@CaptBurgerson]

I agree I'd rather not cheese things on purpose, but there's an important distinction here I think. In the case of EOW, the core gameplay mechanic is to use echoes to create ways to reach new areas. That is something taught to us early on as we escape the castle, and is used consistently throughout the rest of the game. The way this dungeon is set up, that cheese can be done straight up by accident because people see a ledge, get curious, and try to use their echoes (your MAIN ability in the game) to get up there, the same way you use echoes to find heart pieces and secrets in the overworld. If using the game's core mechanics breaks the level design, then that's a design flaw imho

[@thevioletbee5879]

@ Exactly. I have a blast skipping chunks of Snowhead in Majora’s Mask by bomb hopping over the Great Bay gates specifically because it isn’t intended and I had to go out of my way to do it (plus it doesn’t skip all of the fun parts). Here, it just feels too easy. You do skips by playing the game as intended. As such any intended puzzles are no longer intended. They’re suggestions.

[@kakarikokage2514]

@CaptBurgerson I guess, like you said, on a second play through that would cross my mind. My initial thought when walking into the main room was thinking that the different colored lines on the wall are what I should follow, and there would be some sort of water level mechanic. I guess my thought process is still in past Zelda dungeon mode, where I search for a solution around me instead of using the echoes as the solution.

[@imonly1man_]

Can't wait for the "nth (or nth) dungeon" thing to start getting more out of hand post-Hyrule Castle

[@happysmilesworldandgames8755]

10:00 they could make water flow through the walls, preventing clawtulas from climbing them

[@Skip6235]

The music in this dungeon is sublime. It’s so impressionist. Very Debussy. Or, very John Williams Star Wars Prequels. I love it!

[@paulgrotebeverborg1119]

Together with BotW and TotK, water dungeons really fell off in the modern era

[@CaptBurgerson]

ALBW's Swamp Palace may have been the last good water dungeon

[@topfranluis1]

Rather Dungeons in general

[@paulgrotebeverborg1119]

@@topfranluis1 yeah true but water dungeons most of all

[@lorenabuck5841]

I think people complained too much about waterdungeons...you can see the shift in direction in mm

[@paulgrotebeverborg1119]

@lorenabuck5841 it definitely was not shifting in Majora's Mask. Twilight Princess' water dungeon is a harder one as well

[@charziz6693]

Realizing how easy the skip was in the middle of doing it normally was a crazy monent for me. The part I did skip ended up being my favourite section of the dungeon when I did go back and do it after fighting Fish from Link's Awakening 2: We Swear it's Not Easy This Time.

[@browncow5210]

I think the fact you can cheese this one is a plus. It's an early dungeon and players are still learning the mechanics. Kids likely haven't figured out yet that you can reverse bond a crawltula to scale the walls and bypass the routes, so they're more likely to play it the intended way. More resourceful players who have experimented with their tools, or players on a repeat playthrough know what to do and are rewarded for it. Speaking of the early game pitfall, you can defy Tri by placing a crate and crawltula to scale the wall back out of there, and you have just enough room to get past it with beds. Figuring that out on my first playthrough felt good. It reminds me a lot of how some stars are designed in Mario 64.

[@Vendavalez]

I don't know. Having an early dungeon be cheeseable through wise use of the tools available in the game that is themed around wisdom feels appropriate to me. And letting you finish the dungeon early by going out of your way through exploration does not necessarily ruin a dungeon experience. If anything, I am sure that whoever did it felt super smart.

[@HyruleGamer]

Excellent video good sir! 🔥

[@Tazer_Silverscar]

I... actually found this boss quite hard. Despite owning the echoes that would make it stupidly easy, I often got caught in places due to the re-shaping of the boss area, and how slow movement was in the water. I did feel the dungeon was too short, but I found the Crawltula a little unreliable as it likes to walk where ever it wants, so I usually didn't use it - which meant I didn't use it to skip the wall in the main room. And well, unless you used the water block to navigate everywhere, you aren't skipping that invisible pitfall first time.

[@diyantagonist]

If "Utterly Cheesable" isn't already on merch, it should be!

[@AnthonyDGreen]

I recommend Zora after Gerudo because it delays certain echoes and gives you more time with other echoes for traversal. And I recommend doing the ice dungeon in the middle for the second half because of thematic reasons given that more knowledge is presented to you in whichever of the three you do second. Also, Faron dungeon best for last!

[@T826-r3c]

I get how being able to cheese a dungeon isn’t great design, but I felt super accomplished after finding some obscure way of skipping sections of this dungeon

[@l-plays587]

It´s actually kinda sad. I realized on my first playthrough, that I don´t need to fall down the big hole (I used beds instead of water). And I just coincidentally found the big key first try. Then I just watered up to the door and realized...oh wait. I still need to get the remaining chests.

[@SquidInkPizza]

I felt like Gerudo Sanctum was the more obvious choice for Second Dungeon given how close it was to the inventor's house. I also had a very different view before watching this video, because I never considered the possibility of breaking a dungeon so badly

[@CaptBurgerson]

I likewise thought Gerudo Sanctum initially, and went there on my first playthrough too. But I needed an arbitrary order for the series haha

[@SquidInkPizza]

@CaptBurgerson I feel you. Glad to see more from you.

[@efad3215]

Honestly, before doing this pair I walked around and got warp points and opened up my map so I could better navigate the rest of the game. Also, I did GS first as well

[@keylimepython641]

That, and Gerudo Sanctum has the Soft Bed echo.

[@alexispetrowski3218]

I didn’t even think of cheesing it though I did use the water blocks quite a bit but I found they helped my frustration. I don’t hate that you can cheese it, I think that option will be appreciated in replays and speedrunners will love it for sure! But I also like the option of breaking up the key

[@Brockbuiltmore]

so after playing and beating Echoes last night, i liked the fact that it gave you your choice with the dungeon order over the the first 3 dungeons and the dungeons for the din nayru and farore. it didnt impose a strict order but at the same time it pointed out your options for you and let you find them for yourself. it was like a fascinating mix of link to the past, tears of the kingdom and ocarina of time all with the Switch Links Awakening aesthetic. i truly felt like making this game chibi esque like the links awakening for Zeldas technically 3rd MC appearance was a very good decision. like a reverse wind waker to twilight princess, after TOTW and BOTW, i liked the cute chibi designs of the characters in this game.

[@Brockbuiltmore]

while (spoilers) i liked Null as the main Villain and Ganon taking a Zant role in this game, i think Null as the final boss is more on those Bellum Malladus level of final boss in the series.

[@macnamaryb7773]

Yeah, this Dungeon, along with Hyrule Castle, Eldin Temple, and Lanayru Temple, really brought down any hype I might have had for the game. They all felt so small and I basically autopiloted straight through them in about 15-25 minutes each. The Gerudo Sanctum, though it didn't introduce any ground breaking mechanic, I ultimately came around to believing is a good dungeon, if only because its either a second or third dungeon. Faron Temple is the star of the show, being on par with the middle of the road Zelda dungeons from the rest of the series, which is very impressive considering its a crossbreed of old and new Zelda design.

[@GamingReinvented]

Still remember when I first saw this dungeon and the terminal setup, and worried that Echoes of Wisdom dungeons would reuse the same Divine Beast/Temple setup. Fortunately that's not the case, but it's definitely something this dungeon would make you believe if it was your only experience with the game. Regardless, the dungeon feels like it was designed for another Zelda game, one where the experience was a lot more linear and restrictive. As you said, in that case this layout would work fine, and make for an interesting dungeon setup. Unfortunately, the sheer open-endedness of EoW makes the current layout a poor fit for the game, and means it stands out from every dungeon in the game in the worst way possible. Great job with the video!

[@victoriansword]

I, ugh, died fighting Vocavore on my first play through. 😬 I was still too hesitant when it came to using sword fighter form.

[@ironencepersonal9634]

Are you sure on the boss difficulty thing? I had more trouble with the Vocavor than I did the Talus

[@CaptBurgerson]

The comments have me doubting my assessment

[@mubzytv]

Despite the 2 factors for the ordering, I felt like the Gerudo one was 2nd for me as its closer to the location. Like how Vah Ruta was closest to Kakariko Village in BOTW and Wind Temple was closest to main story line. 1st game I think we visit the Gerudo tribe so early into the game. But still enjoyed this water temple

[@Lassikko]

The pit in the first room is kind of funny because you don't even have to know it's there, you can literally just climb out of there. I assumed there wasn't anything important down there since they let you get back up so easily. 😭

[@lightblueyoshi1990]

This was the hardest boss for me. I don't know why, but the 2nd pase gave me so much trouble. I died multiple times, more than any other bosses.

[@prometheos2]

Same here; it was surprising to see someone dispatch it so easily with tools I had, while I felt like I *had* to use Swordfighter form and the game just wouldn't give me any energy back 😅

[@Vranaerys]

Haven’t played this one yet. Getting around to it soon! Maybe by the time you get through the whole game I’ll have beaten it. Love your insight into the dungeon design!

[@ham8426]

Funfact, i stumbled into this solution on my first run, i even skipped the cave section at the start by climbing back up with the crawltula, i was just dumbfounded by how short the dungeon was when i just oopsed into the key and steamrolled the boss

[@LazyGardenGamer]

Seeing the dungeon order makes me happy, as that's the exact order I did my first playthrough, lol

[@normaljune]

I thought the boss was fun, but I was doing it wrong the first time. I didn’t realize you could just pop the bits covering its weak point, so i was using bind to pull them off individually. It was a bit more waiting focused but it felt good to pull off (ha), especially when the water drop made getting that space harder.

[@DanCyan]

I was was the one who found the big key without exploring anything else (I also skipped the chase sequence by teleporting back and using a crawltula) and to be honest... It felt great, and I that's because I had to outsmart the design of the dungeon to break it apart, you almost certainly have the tools to skip most of the dungeons but you have to go out of your way to use them in a clever way to do it in a faster and exciting way, it almost felt like speedrunning.

[@Castle4473]

How many people do you know that did Gerudo Sanctum before Jabul Ruins, and the two Zora leaders act like an old married couple

[@CaptBurgerson]

While the video was premiering I ran a poll asking which dungeon people had done first, and it was about a 70/30 split with most people saying they'd done Gerudo Sanctum first, It was also less than 20 people voting though, so I don't think it's enough data to make any sort of concrete statement

[@domdude64dd]

I did Gerudo first since I considered it "fire" so it would be 2nd after forest, then water 3rd, little did I know about the gorons lol

[@dudujencarelli]

15:20 - Love the use of Metroid Dread's Burenia theme as a watery backdrop. This was my third dungeon as well. I wanted to get the boring desert out of the way first before exploring a more colorful area that's actually new to Hyrule. The dungeon might be on the simple side, but I still enjoyed it. I guess they did this way because it could have been dungeon #2 to a lot of people, and asking for a tougher water temple right at the beginning of the game (we know the water temple's reputation) would have probably made some people abandon it completely. Another reason I give this dungeon a pass is because the pre-dungeon overworld quests more than make up for it. The amount of exploration and dealing with the Zora characters and their crisis is one of my favorite parts of the game. Jabul Waters is a favorite of mine. As for echoes like the crawltula and the water blocks, here's the thing: I already had them as well, but hadn't quite learned how to use them effectively (it wasn't until much later that I figured out the water blocks in the mountainous areas). And I had a strict limit on number of echoes at that point. I didn't even think of breaking the dungeon's intended design with them. And even if I had, I always make a conscious effort to follow the game's intended path and figure out what the design is telling me to do before I look for alternate ways to cheese it.

[@skc4188]

1:19 - That was also my reasoning to go first to the Gerudo region (in fact, that was also why I went there first in Breath of the Wild after talking to Impa and Purah. =P)

[@1996Stein]

A higher quantity of well hidden small keys and well placed locked doors would solve so many problems

[@Fixti0n]

So i too visited the Gerudo Desert first, and i picked up the flying tile while i was at it, and during my time there, i started to use it as a quick form of travel, its easy to use and goes pretty fast, and it is airborne. So when i came to the water dungeon, i was already in the habit of flying any line longer then a few steps and thus missed the pitfall in the first room, then i came into the large room with the four faucets and wondered if the game allowed me to just walk up there, indeed it did. But then i was stopped by the boss key, so i though, ah, i have to get the terminals to get the boss key, so i went to the rooms in a clockwise fashion because am vanilla. Imagen my surprise when i on my first try going in blind, beat the dungeon by only visiting three rooms and solving a whole whooping 0 puzzles. I get wanting to have an open ended dungeon design, but i think they forgot about the third dimension.

[@Shannon-igans]

I enjoyed the temple, and like you say the boss Vocavor is more annoying and tedious than difficult. I ended up just loading up on Salted Milk smoothies so I could just go direct with SW form after throwing a shark to help me. Also at 15:11 is a very cool idea and after 2 of my own full playthroughs I'm still learning new cool stuff!

[@DennisComella]

Not only did I use the crawltula on my first playthrough, but I skipped the initial chase sequence by warping back to the entrance after falling. I ended up going back to explore after I realized that I broke the sequence.

[@crinklyonion1410]

Very good video! I love listening to you analyzing each dungeon. I remember really enjoying this dungeon, but it is definitely one of the worst water dungeons.

[@ashleycurzon6348]

I did this dungeon second as zoon as possible, at that point i was still figuring out how to play the game properly so the thought of cheesing the dungeon never crossed my mind. It may not be a great dugeon but compared to botw amd totk it was a breath of fresh air and a partial return to form.

[@LovePeaceSpirit]

Everytime I see a Crawtula now I just think of you saying Spooder 😂 I was definitely surprised by how easy I found this dungeon

[@Quintingent]

Yeah, this was the one dungeon I found all the major cheese strats for myself. The floor trap I simply warped back up and then used beds to cross, and since I had Crawltulas I was able to easily climb up to the upper level. However, since I picked the path with the boss key last it didn't actually help me much XD I will say that I'm not opposed to such cheese strats existing. In theory they can make replays more interesting by letting you use your prior knowledge to your advantage. But the key there is knowledge. It should not be obvious how you can skip them. The floor trap ALMOST does this right, since a first time player will definitely fall for it, but the warp point being right there means it's trivial to undo this 'mistake'. Similarly, the boss key being in one of the paths did mean that I couldn't utilise my exploit, but that was due to poor luck.

[@shadenox8164]

I wonder if maybe they made this dungeon first while they were still realising how much power Zelda had in navigation. It would explain why this one stands out like this. We know they aren't always made in the order played.

[@ClayByDallin]

well I’m apparently an idiot 😂 I never even considered using the crawltula or water blocks get up to the boss door

[@noirknightzelgius384]

Funny enough i skipped the foryer trap with tile echo cause something about the empty hall said trap, then soon as i got the key i used the crawlchila, i kept think "no way they let this work" while it is a bit unfortunate you can just say "no" to the temple it does feel like it reward your creativity and wisdom.

[@LooseAsADEUCE]

I wouldn't necessarily call any boss in this game "hard", but I definitely had more difficulty with this boss than the Talus or even the boss of the Gerudo dungeon. As for the cheese factor, Idk if my brain just doesn't work that way but I never even considered trying to skip the central mechanic lol

[@aetherial87]

They could've added some spike strips (or something similar) along the rims of the upper platforms to stop wall-crawling. Otherwise just make sure the high difference is enough the water block can't get you there and that would eliminate the skipping problem in the central room.

[@glaceonmage]

If you did Gerudo first, you'd still be able to skip it with platbooms though.

[@aetherial87]

@glaceonmage hmm, true. I didn't use platbooms too much so I'm not sure what their limitations are.

[@SusieAndrieux]

Somehow i manage to miss the moltula before going in this dungeon...and i did it third x) And also for some reason i completly forgot about the existence of the water block during ALL the dungeon...so with my incredible stupidity i manage to not break AT ALL the dungeon

[@Dman25]

I think my personal experience with this dungeon is something that really stuck with me about the game. After realizing what kind of potential the crawltula had, it was easily one of my most used echoes throughout the game. I ended up getting stuck in the lower left area because I didn't realize you were able to bind torches (which I think could've been better indicated by the game), and reacted by deciding to come back. Because of how open the game was by nature I assumed that *surely* going to check out the upper areas was relatively intended, right? I'm pretty sure I straight up missed the boss key on my first pass through that room, and ended up playing through the whole dungeon, but learning that the water really was just for vertical traversal (which the game already put effort into *showing you* how to do in an easier way) was profoundly disappointing. While this is probably the worst example, I don't think it's the only place in the game like this either. It sort of feels like a kind of design flaw that has started to leak in more and more since BotW. It feels like the devs have half given up on accounting for what you do and don't have to the extent that their intended solutions have gaping holes that make them much less satisfying in my opinion. I still enjoyed the game, of course, but I feel like the Zelda team values BotW far too highly in their current philosophy. It's sort of becoming finding enjoyment despite the BotW DNA for me. But anyway, there's the end of my lightly salted personal story/series retrospective lol

[@user-sr9hy6qp6k]

I might be a little late, but once your finished with echoes of wisdom, could you go over the Minish cap. Temple of Droplets and Palace of Winds are some of my all time personal favorite dungeons and I would love to see what you think

[@CaptBurgerson]

I do plan to get to Minish Cap eventually, but my plans right now are to do the Oracle games after EOW

[@eeveestar6826]

But why would you want to ruin your dungeon experience by skipping over it? I didn't even use a Crawltula

[@CaptBurgerson]

I wouldn’t want to, but someone might see a ledge and try to use their echoes to reach it, as is the general gameplay style of the game. The game has trained you up to this point to use your echoes to build new paths, and reach new areas. You can’t fault a player for following their curiosity

[@tarnw3301]

I think it being skippeable is good. Just put some hearts, some clothes, an item, and people will explore the dungeon just because it's worth exploring.

[@Jack-h9j3r]

You should’ve released this video at the same time as gerudo

[@bugpowderdust8736]

Yo Capt, what are your top ten dungeons in the series?

[@CaptBurgerson]

That is too big of an answer to give in a YT comment haha

[@ShadowWolfTJC]

So, which would you rather prefer? Echoes of Wisdom's Jabul Ruins, or Ocarina of Time's Water Temple?

[@CaptBurgerson]

I am, and have always been a staunch OOT Water Temple enjoyer. It is a fantastic dungeon that gets way too much flack

[@Lessinath]

@@CaptBurgerson based (I am also an OOT water temple enjoyer)

[@ShadowWolfTJC]

@@CaptBurgerson Fair enough. :)

[@DrakonLameth]

So you're telling me that over 30 years since the first Zelda games with water dungeons (LTTP's Swamp Palace and LA's Angler's Tunnel, '91 and '93 respectively), and they still can't make a water dungeon that plays well with both "dungeon" and "water themed" in a way that doesn't have issues?

[@CaptBurgerson]

Idk what you mean. Both the swamp palace and angler’s tunnel are great. Water dungeons really started feeling disappointing to me only recently, in BOTW, TOTK, and now here in EOW

[@gregmasciola3332]

Like others said, they should have made it so that the spider can't scale these walls due to the water. They could have also made it so there's a trap door in the ceiling that stays shut until the water fountain reaches that height. While I definitely enjoyed this game (and am already starting a second playthrough), I kind of felt like all of the dungeons, other than the Hebra one, were kind of mediocre. Almost like they just made the first draft but didn't have anyone play test them.

[@NIMPAK1]

I was honestly INSANELY disappointed in this dungeon. Just the simple inclusion of some locked doors would've gone a long way. It also exacerbates a general problem this game has, how echoes are balanced. The strandtula echo isn't even particularly hard to come by for the majority of players unless you intentionally avoid it, yet it utterly destroys the design of this dungeon. It wouldn't even be that hard to balance the game better, just limit the amount of echoes you can get early on. You wouldn't even need to sacrifice that much exploration either, just lock more areas behind needing specific echoes similar to Hebra, like imagine a really deep canyon that requires something like the flying tile to traverse and design puzzles with the assumption that you at least have something that lets you travel long distances. That said, there's still some pretty good dungeons in this game. My favorite being the one for the Deku area (I forget the name). That one did a good job letting you traverse it in multiple ways while still making you explore most of it. The only "problem" I had with it is that I already had so many echoes going into Manhandla it was hard trying to find the exact echo that the non-flammable heads were weak to.

[@jarondratmans]

I feel like the Zelda team is afraid to make a real Water dungeon anymore… it’s kinda sad bc I think they’re typically pretty cool.

[@logansmith2703]

You're definitely wrong on the difficulty of Vocavor. Also I don't give a flip if someone could accidentally figure out they can cheese it. The vast majority of people who do will simply choose not to OR only cheese as much as they find fun. I think you're making a much bigger deal out of it than it actually is.

[@CaptBurgerson]

I found it very easy, but you are right that my experience is not universal. Overall, it has very little impact on how I enjoy the game as a whole, but given that the subject matter of my series is level design, I wouldn't be doing my due diligence if I didn't talk about such a massive design flaw. I don't expect everyone to agree with me about how they feel about it, but if it's there I'm going to include it in the video. You don't have to give a flip, but I'm gonna write my script how I feel

[@AnthonyDGreen]

Even without the water block you can skip that section with the flying tile. I fell through the floor once when I was taking a peek and when I fell I just turned it off and went to sleep. I did all the terminals but did check with an earlier save if I could have skipped with Crawtula. I was *pleasantly* surprised that you could and didn't penalize the developers for sticking to their principle of freedom. As you say, it only matters if you can't guess where the boss key is and I play the games to enjoy the content, not skip it. A tremendous amount of content in most Zelda games is skippable. Sometimes dungeons or mini dungeons or rooms or gear. I don't hold that against the games, I love it. Why would someone go through the boss door without finding all the treasure chests? There could be good loot in those rooms! It's not "breaking" anything. And it's good for replays. I love the first Dark Souls, but will skip large sections of it on NG+ and NG++. I skip almost all content in BotW Master Mode and even cheese the divine beasts a little, especially Vah Medoh. Or a better example, I *love* the lead up to Zora's Domain in BotW. It set high expectations for adventure in my first playthrough. And the game *encourages* you to do it and the rain funnels you into doing it on foot. *But* if you decide to explore Akkala first you can use Cryonis to climb the waterfalls there to the north side of the domain and paraglide down and completely skip the gauntlet of Electric Lizaldos and the introduction to Price Sidon. You could ride the updrafts just south of the Reservoir or the cliffs to the East and approach from that side. If you bought electric arrows from Laurelin as I did you don't even have to fight the Lynel. I wouldn't make a review of BotW stressing that the Zora quest was badly designed because a tiny fraction of players might skip half of it (and that half is fantastic). I did accidentally skip the Mineru Dragon Sky Isles quest because I was just messing around in the storm and accidentally ended up at the end without doing the Zonai ruins stuff at all. But I don't frame that as one of my many complaints about TotK. I disagree with framing this hypothetical as a negative, but if someone actual had the experience you described of "accidentally" ruining the dungeon for themselves, then I'll adjust my opinion from new information. I didn't personally get the TotK memories out of order but I know people actually did.

[@CaptBurgerson]

"A tremendous amount of content in most Zelda games is skippable" In most Zelda games, that skippable content is SIDE content, not the main dungeons. And the main stuff that is skippable, like getting out of Ordon Village early in TP, tends to need to be done through glitches or unintended exploits. BOTW having a lot of skippable content is an outlier. That game handles exploration different. BOTW is *not* most Zelda games. (And that's not a bad thing, I love it) I agree I'd rather not cheese things on purpose, but there's an important distinction here I think. In the case of EOW, the core gameplay mechanic is to use echoes to create ways to reach new areas. That is something taught to us early on as we escape the castle, and is used consistently throughout the rest of the game. The way this dungeon is set up, that cheese can be done straight up by accident because people see a ledge, get curious, and try to use their echoes (your MAIN ability in the game) to get up there, the same way you use echoes to find heart pieces and secrets in the overworld. In fact, I've heard from multiple people that this was the case for them, that they did find the boss key early by accident. They weren't trying to skip stuff, they were exploring the paths available to them, using the main ability. If using the game's core mechanics breaks the level design, then that's a design flaw imho

[@AnthonyDGreen]

@@CaptBurgerson ok. If you say people were impacted then that's that. The like first thing I did with Crawltula was scale Eldin before I'd even gone to the castle. There wasn't much going on there but mini games but I've heard that some folks used the echoes to get to regions before they were under threat and unlock waypoints that they then used in the second half of the game to just skip the region. I absolutely like that they're getting better at the blend between openness and classic gameplay and hope they continue to iterate without giving up on either. But I'll definitely concede that your multi-part lock or key design is a much better than what they did. I know I can use rocket-shields and that damned ascend-recall trick to cheese all the TotK shrines and again, I concede that it does diminish the fun for me. Your only point I disagree with is BotW being an outlier moving forward. I think they'll play with it but open is the future for a bit, they just need to get better at it and your criticisms are constructive to that purpose. ❤️

[@CaptBurgerson]

@AnthonyDGreen on that last note, I only mean it’s the outlier counting games *so far* in that there are fewer game currently that fall into that design. Going forward, u agree that they’ll continue trying to keep things open as you say

[@SailorDisco]

I spammed this fight with the might sword ended the fight way too quickly

[@PtyPro]

Unfortunately, navigating the dungeon is far too easy. The dungeon gives the illusion of having a complex layout due to the central room, which connects to numerous different paths. However, each of these paths is separate from the others, and they essentially consist of straightforward routes leading directly to the button that raises the water level. There’s no real need for critical thinking to solve the dungeon’s layout. The only exceptions are a few puzzle rooms, but even those can be bypassed or cheesed with minimal effort. In comparison to traditional Zelda dungeons, which were true navigation challenges or puzzlebox requiring you to think of the dungeon as a giant interconnected puzzle, Zelda Echoes of Wisdom falls short. After completing the game, I realized I could easily turn off my brain for every dungeon except Farron’s dungeon. While not the best, Farron's dungeon came closest to the classic Zelda dungeon experience. The other dungeons felt more like extended dungeons tutorials that keep introducing mechanics without ever fully pushing them to their limits.

[@Ballofchaos]

To be honest I liked this dungeon since I did it legit and didn’t cheese it lol

[@tylerherr4288]

im gonna pull up my sonic gamer card and say this i really hope they dont start over using side scroller sections in future games (nb4 zelda 2 remake and the game is 90% side scroller lol)

[@pedrohenriquemonteirodacos3224]

You take so long to post a new Dungeon Desing, what hapened?

[@CaptBurgerson]

I made another, unrelated video after my Suthorn Ruins video, and then got slammed with IRL stuff around the holidays. I understand people get excited for new video releases, but please remember to be patient as I'm a human being with a life outside of KZbin, and good quality content takes time. Hope you enjoyed the video nonetheless