The Vow Season 1 Q&A - WTF is on my Mind?! PODCAST - Episode 4

[@allthewrightbooks]

When Bonnie exclaims "I have to tell the REBELS!" made my heart sing! She is just amazing and the strength it must have taken to wake up and then work to save you and others is just a luminous example of what love truly is. We need more people with hearts like Bonnie!

[@esval3054]

She was clever and Mark was dumb. The fact that he chose Keith over Bonnie is unbelievable and shows what a crappy partner he can be.

[@champigranja1179]

@@esval3054 I don't think Mark was dumb at all. He earned millions while being in the cult, recruited thousands of people because he got profits. He manipulated people to stay, like India. He knew that India was working FOR FREE at the cult and the second she got a good paying seasonal job, Mark called her and wept begging her not to go. That's shitty! It's just hard to believe that he wasn't aware of what a scumbag Keith really was. Kissing everyone on the lips was a big old red flag everyone chose to ignore,and so was being surrounded by women only (Mark was the only male friend he had). Mark didn't complain because he had too much to lose and that's exactly why he decided to ignore Bonnie and take that hairy, short and manipulative cave troll named Keith's side. I don't buy that little "it wasn't me" face.

[@shellypardy3491]

​@@esval3054He needed time to work that out. We all have different ways of trying to solve relationship issues and keith clearly was still trying to be a homewrecker if you compare keith to someone like david miscavige , who wrecked two of tom cruises marriage, mark processed all the past events with keith. It took time and frustrated Bonnie, but when he left to be with bonnie it was when it needed to happen i guess. That started a ripple effect of people leaving and keith losing control.

[@TaurusWitch29]

I think about her saying that all the time, randomly in random times, every day at least once 😂

[@TaurusWitch29]

​​@@esval3054 I don't think it's fair of you to judge. Have you ever chosen a romantic partner or best friend over your parents? Or siblings? Or best friend? It's not fair to condemn someone for making a choice. They've even said she was slowly saying things, she didn't just come right out and say "he's brainwashing all of us, we're in a cult" she took her time and had patience with him. The end result obviously shows that they handled it the way they, as a couple, should have handled it. Have you been in a high controlled group? Have you ever chosen someone else over another important person, but still maintained relationships with both like he did? It seems to me like it's relatively common to choose a friend over a boyfriend or family member. It's not exactly string him up behavior, it's a conversation and honesty that needed to be added and it was. It's not like he was doing the things Alison was doing, or Lauren, or Nikki. He needed proof and he got it. I just don't think you should be hurting people with your words because you feel like you wouldn't make a decision like that, but chances are, you already have and just not realized it. Maybe instead of trying to make Mark feel bad, you should look internally and find out why you're really angry and who in your life you are angry at, and have that conversation with them instead. 🖤

[@OwningAuthenticity]

11:40 "Some people shouldn't wake up, it'd be too shattering." That's a stark truth right there.

[@debythomas11]

Bonnie is the real hero in this story. Thank you for listening to her and having the ability to change your commitment to Raniere and see the truth.

[@rosecoloredtimes]

When Keith was teaching you about empathy. Later you realized “oh this is what you were teaching yourself so you could appear human.” Woah. These videos are soooo interesting

[@JeanineMarieCompassion]

I am a trauma therapist who works with people who have suffered narcissistic abuse. Listening to your channel is very helpful!

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

Trauma therapy how do you get over the fact that a surgeon can get away with hurting you no justice at all so I’m glad these folks got justice I worked at Jenny Craig it was kind of like a cult in my world fell apart and once you were out you didn’t hear from anybody again and what is a crime here or is it was a business and he was the human resource department were Nancy Salzman and Laura Salzman or Lauren Salzman do they have human resources diplomas is that legal I mean there’s a multi level this case is like an onion unbelievable can you tell me Anything about trauma therapy in terms of massages puncture spots that sort of thing

[@smintedinc2482]

❤definitely

[@StLProgressive]

I started watching your podcasts after watching The Vow, before season 2 started. At first I didn’t understand why the story of this horrific cult had caught my attention so deeply. I think I’ve finally figured it out after listening to your podcasts. I was in a high control religious group in the late 90’s for about 3 1/2 years, the International Church of Christ. It was what they called a ‘discipline movement,’ where the entire point seemed to be to grow the membership so they could browbeat you for your tithe of 1/10th of your gross income. That was part of it, but the bigger part was the divorce I had just been through. My ex was a covert/vulnerable narcissist, who emotionally abused me for almost 30 years. I didn’t even recognize what he’d been doing until the day he seemed to change overnight, he’d cheated and wanted a divorce. What you said about not recognizing the man I’d spent that much time with was a total lie is true. It broke me. I won’t go in to all the details. It was 3 years of hell. Raniere reminds me of him so much. Ughhhh. At any rate, your podcasts and The Vow are helping so many people like me. I’m so sorry that you and all the others went through what you did. I’m so glad that Raniere will spend the rest of his life behind bars.

[@JB-vm4mq]

I’m so thankful that you & Bonnie were brave enough to face that beastly company. You saved lives. Bonnie is my hero!!

[@nanainamerica]

I've been lucky enough to never have been in a cult, but I was in a romantic relationship that was very harmful in a similar, albeit small-scale way. A cult of one leader and one follower. Watching the vow woke me up in my relationship, when I realized Keith talked so much like person I was dating. I realized I was attached to someone I was also scared of, and the longer I was in it, the more I felt confused, chronically stressed, and the more I lost myself. I agreed to things I was uncomfortable with, more and more, and let myself be treated in a way that would have seen crazy six months prior. It legitimately scrambled my brain, and it took three tries to leave. When I would try and end it, he would convince me it was my own limitations/behaviors/beliefs holding me back - and if that didn't work, he would promise exactly the things i wanted when i tried to separate from him - and then they would quickly flip again once I was back. His words hooked, and kept me there, and it was so, so miserable, and he was also like a drug I thought I needed/wanted. Eventually I learned there is a sort-of support group made up of his ex girlfriends, who all went through some version of mini-hell, and are all smart, high-functioning women - women who are willing to make themselves uncomfortable in order to grow, and women who give people the benefit of the doubt/are quite empathetic. We wondered how to warn other women, but dating apps give men like this zero accountability - they can date many different social circles and no one ever knows/they don't have social consequences, they just move on. Mark - Your podcast are reflections are so interesting to listen to. You are so warm and wonderful. 'What the Bleep' was my favourite movies in my first year of college, and contributed to ongoing interest in the overlap of science and the spiritual. I'm so sorry for what you've endured, for the pain and harm inflicted on you, perhaps because you were the most curious+open minded+ compassionate+empathetic+growth-and-purpose-oriented of all the men. I'm sure you know all of what's in this article already, but check out this author+article (norasamaran.com/2021/01/14/new-post-in-progress/). She's a Canadian academic who writes about attachment theory, safety, coercive persuasion, narcissism etc. Might be good for your film! So excited to hear you're making that! Thanks for your vulnerability and honesty, it's so helpful.

[@wealthwithtess]

Wow this is me too. I just went through this last year and have had the same experience. Thank you for sharing this. Makes me feel less alone.

[@reminded]

I feel similarly. Emotional abuse and cults are so similar, it seems to really be about scale. I went through an emotionally abusive relationship a few years ago, and it amazed me when watching The Vow and similar media (like Scientology and the Aftermath) how similar the coercion and manipulation is to what I experienced. Obviously it's not exactly the same, but there are remarkable similarities.

[@interrhian6065]

Would love to hear you recap the entire of season 1 too Mark please! I admire you and your survivor family more than I could ever articulate. Sending love and good energy to you all

[@JeanineMarieCompassion]

Also, I love your insight at 26:00 about Keith trying to teach you what he lacked in himself-brilliant! I’ve been a therapist over 30 years-that was a deep insight!!!

[@markvicente7]

Thanks, Jeanine. It completely blew my mind!

[@JeanineMarieCompassion]

@@markvicente7 keep up the brave and important work!

[@monica_richardson]

Did most people stop working regular jobs ? Oh you just answered this !! Sad about all this going on in Mexico !

[@catnmouse482]

These videos are so valuable and wow, what a lightbulb moment when you said that you realized that Keith was teaching others about empathy because he had to learn it himself in order to look and act human to others. Those sentences hit me like a ton of bricks!!!!!

[@user-zq5eb2hj9o]

Towards the end it seemed Keith was feeling more and more emboldened which makes you wonder how far he would’ve gone had this organization not been exposed. I believe more sadistic forms of torture of women or possibly even taking their own lives or taking the lives of others as a requirement as a show of loyalty. Either way I believe there would’ve been a lot of deaths at the hands of this evil man

[@markvicente7]

Exactly right. Very perceptive. That's why we felt it was imperative to bring it to an end!

[@jackiejns983]

@@markvicente7 Thank GOD you helped end this

[@lunarikariko981]

Gina Hutchinson supposedly “unalived” herself bc of what Keith Raniere did to her. It was ruled a suicide but the facts seem really sketchy around her death.

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

your insights into narcissism and narcissistic abuse are so astute. your descriptions exceed those of professionals and youtube charlatans alike. you're very observant. you put language, simply, to things i've been trying to circumscribe for years. thank you.

[@TaurusWitch29]

I had no idea that you had a KZbin channel, and I'm a huge fan so I'm going to have to go binge every video now. And I'm obsessive compulsive so I really will lol. Im crazy for the metaphysical and outer space and different densities and quantum physics and cults and conspiracies and secret space programs and aliens and channeling and all that, so that's partly your fault and 'What The Bleep' lol. Im so excited! And I really appreciate you being so honest and its truly inspiring and respectful, and absolutely relatable to those of us who have trauma. Thank you. And Bonnie! Gosh I love how beautiful she is on the inside, it 100% makes her shine so much on the outside. I fangirl over her because she is amazing. I'm embarrassed to admit how many times I've watched The Vow, but I walk at least 12,000 steps a day and I have all the episodes downloaded on HBO and I rotate it with a few other shows about fundamentalist religions. I enjoy it because of the long form content and its about something I'm interested in, so I think the phrase "because I want to let the rebels know" at least once a day lol. Okay I'm sorry for rambling, I just was so excited to see you have a channel and I have so many episodes I can binge! 😊🌛🖖👽☄️🔮

[@OwningAuthenticity]

The moment in season 1 where you take your gut feeling to Nancy and say "everyone's too nice/happy, you all have an ulterior motive." You had the truth.

[@missssophisicated6742]

Everyone seemed too happy, huggy, and nice which automatically made me get my defenses up..while I watched the series..

[@hortenciaisas2579]

Thank you for your openness and honesty!

[@nicolerenee7025]

Words can’t describe how proud I am of you! You are so brave and such an inspiration for facing off this jerk! I pray for your continued healing. It’s never easy to heal from trauma like this.

[@daintyhippie]

I love your podcast! Thank you for posting them on KZbin!

[@florgarza6409]

I have such respect for you Mark and all the other people that defected and spoke out, it is not an easy thing to do or to even considering doing, so kudos to you guys and do not let those that are still under the spell poison your awakening and for the ones that do not believe you guys or have attacked you guys, I hope that they never have to go through anything like you have other wise they’ll have to learn first hand how it feels or maybe will not even realize that they are in a freaking hole… blessings for your bright future 🙏🏻💕

[@debbiemoran2876]

Mark I appreciate your authenticity. The Vow has me glued as I have been a self help addict for decades wandering from workshop to workshop. I was really wondering if any of the curriculum was truth..If people stopped at the 5 day would this have been a positive experience free from the scandals that happened after? ...I recognize the non attachment from other spiritual practices and yes my guru was also brought down in a sex scandal. I appreciate your podcast separating truth from bull shit. The more you can clarify that the more grateful I will be. Thanks Mark.

[@flyingcolors21]

Even people who've got similar experience on a much smaller scale can still learn so much from these. So many people have 5 or 10 or 20 years of experience dealing with this kind of thing. We really never stop learning how to be safe and heal do we...

[@kulaniwarner7262]

Well said. I'd love to hear some of the "that's a story for another time" discussion. Thanks for posting. Edit: YES to the episode response videos!

[@lisbethsalander1723]

I just realized - you were thinking like a true scientist when you were questioning Nxivm's teachings and you were on the correct questioning path of critical thinking (ask any life long scientist). until Nancy Salzman EM'd you with her so-called "Objectivity" of their untested subjective assertions . My heart goes out to you. Glad you woke up in a giant massive way to take them down as one of the crucial leader. You are doing a great service to many people you would never know. Waiting for your book and documentary.

[@raynehell1217]

Despite his claims to 'objectivity' and a scientific grounding, Keith's prison phone call podcast focuses on whether people like or hate him, as if such simplistic emotional reactions determine their view of his guilt or innocence. Watching the Vow, I found the opposite was true. I warmed to his seemingly calm, smiling, softly spoken demeanor. It was easy to see how he seduced so many. But as evidence mounted of the harm he'd directly or more often indirectly caused, that likeability seemed superficial

[@lisbethsalander1723]

@@raynehell1217 His soft spoken - approachable demeanor and speaking about joy.. was kind of confusing to me too.. until the Whistleblowers like Mark V. blew the cover out .. he deserves all 120 yrs.

[@bethbaugher7027]

Thanks for sharing your story and letting us all see how easy it would be to fall into this trap. You are a good man and have many supporters! Sending you the highest healing vibes through this process.

[@MsCCarolinee]

Sending lots of positive energy from Serbia! What a thought-provoking, surreal and edifying documentary. Thank god there is justice sometimes! You exude wisdom, experience, talent and goodness!

[@monica_richardson]

The story about the beheading in Mexico is horrific . Will anyone ever tell that story . Great video and love to hear you explore all aspects of this story .

[@ninagiacomo]

wow, to see you saying you feel neutral about him gives me so much hope for myself and what I feel about the narc who abused me. thank you for the inspiration 🌱

[@esval3054]

I don't think he's neutral. He is literally doing a podcast to complain about Keith.

[@laurecuvillier]

Mark, I can’t wait to see your movie on narcissists.

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

thank you for sharing your experience. it's very helpful.

[@iam-explorer]

I am glad about this podcast here with texts, so I can translate it better to my own language. Thanks!

[@jackiejns983]

Sorry for so many comments. You said something very true - you don't want to keep bonding on trauma. Support groups shouldn't become entire life. Thank you so much!

[@smintedinc2482]

🎉 you might still be dealing with feeling insane at times but at least “on camera”, your dignity and humanity is exemplary- thank you for sharing and taking us through such a comprehensive account of your experience on so many levels - “Cults of one” are also exceptionally damaging - you raise and discuss and reveal so much of the struggle and aftermath - you’re helping to heal many even outside of cults, it’s toxic business, Domestic Violence, Toxic Relationships, parents and families - the seen and unseen … I would love to see a deep dive and breakdown on the parallels between seen / unseen and a detailed breakdown of the manipulation “tech” - extraordinary- thank you. A Adelaide South Australia

[@UdoADHD]

@26:20 WOW!!!!! I have never realized this! I’m thinking about Scientology - how the lessons in that cult are so… like rudimentary lessons in how to engage with others humans and what you just said describes that so well, too!!!

[@lucylufrank3770]

Fascinating - thanks Mark

[@markvicente7]

Thank You Lucy.

[@OSUalum41]

You took a bad thing and made it a good thing, Mark. Not a lot of people who can say that. Stand tall, brother.

[@jackiejns983]

Vow2 is fascinating. SO good to have all these cult docs. As we watch, we see so many similarities in all of them. Also, very satisfying to see Creep KR get locked up. Bravo

[@raynehell1217]

So many did so much damage to far more people. But so far so few have been brought to book, and even top-level abusers like Bronfman, Mack, the Salzmans and Russell got token sentences compared to Rainere's

[@OwningAuthenticity]

I can only imagine how lonely it is to be a whistleblower, or the amount of courage it takes. It's so huge and I hope you look back on what you did as a massive service to humanity. 🙏💛✌

[@thebiggreenengine]

In Australia, a good majority of shows from HBO including The Vow are one a streaming program called Binge. That's how I watched the Vow.

[@muddywitch9016]

The Vow has helped me realise I grew up in a high control environment. My mother and 4 brothers certainly had/have strong narcissist traits. I ended up marrying a narcissist. My last job had such a narcissistic environment I was off sick with work based stress for 18 months.

[@elfurlong2152]

I've listened to both series. Indeed, I've just bought the first series, mainly to go back and start again with a diff head if you like. Maybe it's too late but, I too would love to hear you break down each episode like you have with season 2. I appreciate however. That it maybe too much for you. Regarding ESP.... that I have seen on film... I can see how people were drawn in. I can see how the modules would help many. I can see that many def experience a big feel good factor.

[@danijadedd]

Seeing you use (what I think is) an SM7B mic is making me feel better about swallowing the price tag on the one I just bought. If it's not... this is the one time where ignorance is bliss. 🤭

[@markvicente7]

It's the SM7! The poorer cousin of the one you got. But yours must sound amazing!

[@flyingcolors21]

I'm wondering...if prison guards were mandated to take training in manipulation prevention (to the level that would be required to keep your head on straight while being anywhere near KR or similar...maybe I'm being naive)...would that give criminals like KR less access to continuing their activities while in jail?

[@LindaSaffioti]

So lucky you filmed all this

[@lperez123]

Mark I just watched the Vow season 2 and wow what a crazy story.

[@markvicente7]

Imagine living it… 😉

[@lperez123]

@@markvicente7 Am I the only one that thinks that the Vow 2 portrays Nancy as a victim. I feel she’s as guilty as Keith is. Am I thinking wrong?

[@suswik3682]

Quick question, who actually filmed Season II? It confused me at one point. Especially Nancy's moments on camera. Gosh, the remaining loyalists reminded me of the Manson following..just no singing. Horrific yet so very sad.

[@lisbethsalander1723]

If you all didn't stop Keith when you did he would have had almost 100 women lined up to be branded with his initials in a concentration camp fashion, and his sentencing would still have been 120 yrs-unfortunately no sentencing can go beyond that. You and your team of whistle blowers did yourself proud despite tremendous resistance from some of the very people you had tried to rescue. I love to rewatch episode 9 of the VOW 1 just to share the unbelievable win of his arrest!

[@MeganSin]

I’m someone who finds cults and cultic abuse stories highly fascinating (I think probably because I’ve always been an outsider looking in) and I think what you guys and anyone who helped the fbi put him away are very brave and courageous. And I’m glad everyone who has left are doing better and the ones who haven’t are sadly cautionary tales.

[@bruceparker805]

Everyone finds them interesting. I can dine out on my cult memberships anytime I choose

[@kashesan]

The shot of the flies dying on the gymnasium floor (at the Lake George Y trip) was very haunting and creepy. And then the phonecall.

[@Gypsyohara]

I have two questions that the season 1 of the vow. Wondering if you can shed some light on. During the first season, it's shown that Bonnie is talking about there were some things that she noticed "some things" with which she had issues. Was the thing that set her off seeing the "I love you, master" or was it something else? Also during season one there is a clip of Raneire talking about "raping a baby" and that he could make it a "very rapable baby" . That clip was cut off at that point. I'm wondering if there is a more complete example of that clip. I'm wondering if I'm missing something in that context...feeling some dissonance involving this clip. Thank you.

[@kashesan]

Just rewatched The Vow-wondering if the people with Tourette's will or have relapsed like the panic attacks resumed after leaving and learning the truth about the cult?

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

i thought about this. if he actually cured Tourette's Reniere kind of deserves the nobel prize. lol

[@florgarza6409]

I have conflicting feeling about the new season letting Nancy talk about her not knowing what was happening, seriously!!??? How could’ve she not know what was going on???!! I really don’t believe her!!! I can’t understand how many other people still believe in Keith even though Allison, Nancy and the other ring leaders pleaded guilty and all their dirty secrets came to light…that is mind boggling to me 😢

[@florgarza6409]

@UCXR_D7h-XJmKPwluSEWYXlw you are right I was thinking the same, it seems like the producers are now on her side or at least making look like another victim and don’t think she is one at all!! To begin with, she is the one that created all the teachings, she is the one the studied neurolinguistics, she maybe followed Keith into using them in the wrong way, but please don’t even try to tell me that she never knew what Keith’s intentions were, she was right next to him since the beginning, he was already a fraudster and had another company that came into the scrutiny so I don’t give her the benefit of the doubt, she had more than enough time to find out who he really was, she does not get compassion or pity from me

[@jackiejns983]

@@florgarza6409 I like hearing the other side trying to defend themselves. That's interesting in Vow2. They all seem narcissistic

[@raynehell1217]

By making plea bargains, Nancy, her daughter, Alison, Clare and Kathy avoided many of their screts being exposed. Does Keith really deserve 120yrs, when the worst these women get is Clare's 7yrs? Only 2 others got prison: Alison 3yrs, Nancy 3.5yrs.

[@raynehell1217]

@@jackiejns983 In authoritarian regimes, there's typically numerous people below the leader who fancy their chances of taking over, and seek to exploit weaknesses to increase their chances. The narcissitic leader seeks to play them off against each other, exploiting their inflated self-images, lessening the likelihood they'll be abe to effectively unite against him. There are similarities between NXIVM highups reactions to the cult being exposed and fracturing, and the Nazis at the end of WW2

[@andrewdeen1]

the new season is a disgrace. just a vanity piece for nancy and the 'nxivm 5' girls. makes me physically ill watching them make lauren out to be a victim when she was literally in charge of keeping a girl confined for two years.

[@nothingworksworks3511]

Cult whistle blower here- during court the entire side of opposition was FULL of ppl I thought loved me, was ONCE so close to and had even helped emotionally/financially etc. My side was nearly empty...was really painful, but had to tell myself that -I- had dignity and hadn't committed crimes, but the COLD HATE...that was unanticipated...felt so much shock/anguish at the time. (prevailed after long 6yrs, THAT phase of extrication = a HILL. I think I too am emotionally arrested to pre cult. NOT easy- relate w you!!)

[@raynehell1217]

Every kid should watch Rosemary's Baby before they're of age to pave their own path

[@terrifromthegoodplace]

It’s interesting that KR had you transcribe the story the guy realized the mentor was the psychopath… that’s literally the theme of Thomas Harris’s books silence of the lambs and Hannibal… basically it’s exactly Hannibal lector and Will Graham’s relationship

[@bruceparker805]

“99% cult members are amazing people” Exactly. So where the heck do you go to meet them? I have found no where better than you guessed it…a cult. Do not underestimate this.

[@jamiekozimor6877]

Is it difficult to separate the beginning where a group of altruistic people were deeply bonded in a united purpose to what it eventually became? Have you still been able to experience the good part of “community” through the work you are doing now? It must be so difficult to ever trust a ‘group’ again. Thank you so much for your transparency.

[@jackiejns983]

Glad you're all out of that bs. I have a hard time looking at you go along with the SOP abusive horrible mysogynistic stuff. But I'm glad you're free of that lunatic.

[@jackiejns983]

I mean hard to see in Vow 1 - or Oxenburgs Seduced doc, where they talk about the SOP bs more.

[@jackiejns983]

Also, your wife is quite the hero. Her instincts were right on. That was so hard to watch - you trying to believe her and not sure -- SOOOOOOOOO glad that jerk is locked up

[@janerikmellesdal3868]

Thanks! I still cant believe all this happened..

[@nannybananers]

I would love to know if there are other predators in nexium ? Or do you consider the all survivors ? NANCY ? ALISON ?

[@esval3054]

Nancy, her daughter, Allison, Claire and all the women who were on top of the pyramid. They knew everything, they knew Keith was evil and they exploited other women. Even Mark must have known something. He was Keith's best friend.

[@purifierphoenixthemecca]

As soon as you hear a title, you should bounce, as soon as you see a heirachy you should bounce. I don't like titles because people feel entitled. Glad you made it out and exposed this, glad this didn't turn into another Jonestown because that's probably where it was leading as KR was teaching to go against your better nature in every way he could think of.

[@jackiejns983]

Or if you hear SUPPRESSIVE or TECH.

[@jackiejns983]

Or requiring COLLATEROL

[@dreamzofhorses]

Your description of KR sounds like a sociopathic personality too. What’s the difference between that and narcissistic personality disorder?

[@roxy5154]

Hang on...I thought you were talking about my experience in Scientology.

[@shellypardy3491]

I can almost feel what the anxiety would feel like to be not only in the same room as keith but in a courtroom. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Do you think even then he was trying to manipulate you in front of the judge? Did the prosecution witness his behaviour there... I'm assuming he went on the stand.

[@PippiPippi98765]

I'm conflicted about this second season. Nancy for sure was in denial for a lot of years and I believe she was a victim to some degree. The more different people speak outside of The Vow the more it had come to light, NS also was a unpleasant person who made people feel deeply ashamed. Furthermore, I'm struggling with the dilemma between some of the high level esp-people as fx Nancy Salzmann - I do believe she had a lot of selfish interest in closing her eyes for the benefit of her own company and power position. Before Pam died KR made NS make breakfast to him and sit and talk with him - while he knew Pam was extremely sick, in fact dying, laying in bed with her own feces all over the place. At that point Nancy did acknowledge KR didn't care one bit about any of them, she told. Then why the h... didn't SHE become a whistleblower and why didn't she ran out of there as fast as she could? That would have made serious damage to the hole organisation. She had so much power and didn't use it. She new a lot of really bad things was happening too, also about the sex misuse of young girls, she knew KR wasn't honest, in fact the opposite, but choose not to act on her knowledge anyway. In part she is a victim, she has her own life story with certain traumas, I get that. I tend to believe that isn't the only explanation for supporting KR unethical behavior by omission. I do believe she did nothing for selfish reasons too. Psychologically she rolled down the curtains, there by blinding herself and did nothing, and then she is representing herself as a victim in the Vow supported by the director of the Vow Jehane Noujaim (you-tube video link below). Now, that's an ethical problem!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/sInaZ6d_qqioqK8&ab_channel=Variety

[@melniee2551]

It didn't look like KR was living a lavish life - either in where he lived, how he dressed, etc. Where did all the millions from the Bronfman's go? Or the money NXIVM was taking in?

[@MimilenaL]

Do you think the Matrix and NXIVM "educational" materials are still being used outside the US? Do you think it's still being used in schools, Intensives, being offered, etc. in Mexico? Do you think The DOSsier Project women are still performing and recruiting as organized previously? 🤔

[@hhpc7977]

The pre school still open. It’s called Rainbow kids

[@jenniferbaumgarden9293]

Do you ever fear that Claire will just pick up where she left off, harassing you guys when she gets out? She still has millions upon millions of dollars at her disposal and could very well use it to go back to making your guys' lives Hell. She is the only person left that can do any real damage. KR and his deadenders are toothless without her.

[@markvicente7]

Yeah. I assume as soon as she gets out, she will pick up where she left off.

[@nanainamerica]

@@markvicente7 Woah really? Shouldn't prison offer her deprogramming to minimize her chance or re-offending or something?

[@jenniferbaumgarden9293]

@@markvicente7 That scares the shit out of me on your behalf!

[@jenniferbaumgarden9293]

@@nanainamerica Claire refuses to disavow KR so deprogramming wouldn't work🤷

[@ellenriemann576]

Hopefully she'll be put right back in if she continues to go after people.

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

You know what I noticed about the DOS women that came on Nikki and Michelle on the Val season two episode one the bow VOW they all said they were seekers insecure and that seems to be a main theme so although everybody thought they were big and strong when they went into that group they weren’t they were already suffering from childhood abuse low self-esteem but for him to get 120 years I mean come on it’s already 68 or something like let him out when he 75 or 80 for god sake‘s what are you gonna do then

[@dirikilewis8755]

Mark Vicente

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

And I also wanted to say that your wife Bonnie is the one who woke up first you said you said that and your marriage survived it which goes to show the level of love and love always conquers evil is the lesson so think of that it is horrifying however one thing I learned from being in that wheelchair and being betrayed by those who I thought would take care of me and I am from Canada by the way are used to live down the street from Sara I think that’s pretty funny I don’t even know how I can call her Sara I don’t even know her I went into Nexium once and I thought wow these people are strange because I was trying to leave Jenny Craig but anyways your wife Bonnie I wish she would sing again and I want you to know that I bought her elbow me and I remember watching the valve for the first time and thinking where have I heard this voice and I had one of her first CDs I think that was released and I thought she’s an up-and-coming singer she’s amazing so I don’t know how those other comments got taken down but I can’t articulate in this current moment the things in and comments and thoughts that I articulated in the last comment because I babble sometimes and try and look at this way anybody who’s that sadistic and people who are glaring at you they are projecting just like you were saying projecting going all over the place and you’re not a victim you survived it you outsmarted him you all dead oh I was just gonna say I wouldn’t announce that for India Oxenberg and and her mother to let people know that prince Charles is their fifth cousin because that would mean that Andrew would be their fifth or sixth cousin as well and I wouldn’t want to have any relation with prince Andrew and the Jeffrey Epstein thing Ghislaine Maxwell that’s pretty horrific to

[@computerchip127]

what about keith renerie's 9 million dollars in the bank. what happened to that money? nancy had half a mil in her house. did she get to keep it?

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

Sarah Edmondson and her husband should do a podcast about Jenny Craig I wrote a whole thing about Jenny Craig and how it’s a cult and it’s not on here anymore Jenny Craig is a cult I worked there for 15 years and I was shattered when I left and after I watch the Val Vita 0W I realized it was a cult big time there was a picture of Jenny Craig on the wall we didn’t have to bow and say thank you Jenny Craig but it was still messed up and that would be a really good podcast for them to do a little bit Kulti I don’t know where thatComment went that was the first comment that I put up and it was gone maybe Jenny Craig has Internet trolls there a cult and they should be exposed

[@computerchip127]

his gpa 2.26 - you were following 2.26

[@caiterlandson7473]

Not saying KR was a genius but a lot of extremely intelligent people do poorly/mediocre in school.

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

How can Nikki Klein say that she knew what she was signing up for and she had a very clear sense of herself which I’ve heard her say that in prior interviews she was on three other interviews talking about this before the Dawson and got together because I was in a wheelchair for a year and it took me five years to get back to work that’s how much damage I had to have six surgeries so I’ve had time to study all this stuff and and watched the vowel a couple of times I’ve noticed things that I didn’t notice the first time I watched it but how could Nikki Klein say that she was really clearheaded and strong when she’s signed in but in this episode say that she was insecure and seeking and didn’t believe in herself and although she was on television she didn’t feel that she was getting traction Think people forget what they were like before they got into the group and the tech teaches you to overcome your intuition and therefore you lose but that guy that suffered from Tourette’s how could he not let go why would he want to suffer from Tourette’s again if that was the way that helped him live normally do you know he’s the one person I was the most worried about you know you start to care about the characters you see on TV and I listen to all of Sara‘s podcast when she was in Vancouver in that tiny little apartment of hers I remember because I lived there and why yeah anyways I hope you do comment back

[@cam_2022]

I agree Keith was born the way he is. My sister is a sociopath narcissist. I have been her target since birth. As an under 2 year child, my sister would take me out of my crib and hide me. Nobody thought this was odd or tried to protect me.

[@nikkinorton8310]

I was married to a bookie. It sounds like the same abuse.

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

Also your wife Sara are Bonnie Bonnie your wife Sarah said she you were her second husband I have no idea what that supposed to mean but whatever I get that but Jenny Craig used to have mystery shoppers that would go in to see if we were using the dialogue correctly and I lived in Vancouver and North Vancouver she should go to one of the centres for a consultation and I’m telling you I’m not gonna write anymore about a comment or write any more comments about Jenny Craig because every time I do they go down

[@SaintVodou]

Luckily the World’s Smartest Man had his pearls of wisdom videoed for posterity, greatly aiding the prosecution…nothing like the horse’s mouth convicting the horse’s ass…

[@kellywinsor5051]

I find it mind boggling that the women were attracted to Keith Reniere

[@markvicente7]

There weren’t.

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

Doing a podcast after each episode I think it’s a great idea because I’d love to know your thoughts on Nancy Salzman and the daughter like that must be for those two mother daughter relationships are so difficult anyway did Nancy know about the her daughter Lauren and Keith rainier he like why did these women find him attractive oh my god he’s gross and I hate to say that sorry universe but he’s not a very physically attractive man and neither I think what makes him so unattractive is his personality his narcissism and he’s sick don’t worry about his betrayal because he’s a malignant narcissist is spiritually damaged how can you dislike somebody that spiritually damaged do not take him to heart but I get it I get it that’s easy for me to say but I didn’t have a 15 year relationship friendship with him so I don’t know how that would feel but I know what it felt like when my best friend of five years slept with somebody I cared for very much that took me a year to get over so it happens but this this isn’t the worst thing that’s ever happened to people people have survived the Holocaust I survived a wheelchair and being Gaslite it by the very peopleThat was supposed to be protecting me and they didn’t except for the doctors who then fixed my leg and got me walking so you know I felt like I was betrayed by my own country in a way so this is all interesting and I really do think that it’s necessary I just hope that everybody can MoveOn and be happy and I don’t think he should be in jail I don’t think Allison Mark should be in jail I don’t think any of the women should be in jail and I don’t I don’t think he should be in jail for 120 years it sounds a message I’m not sure I have to think about it more but I’m glad that you’ve got this platform for conversation and I hope you do comment back

[@jackiejns983]

KR is gross. His pathetic midnight volleyball. Gawd.

[@margotchanning1822]

My partner turned out 2 b the devil. Was with him for 10 years. I trusted him with my life. He abused my daughter in the worst way for 6 of those. Can't trust anyone.

[@CFAshow5359]

Keith must have been allergic to showers. At least in the 80s and 90s he had a more polished appearance and you could observe how his glibness and calm articulacy lured people into his orbit but during the heyday of NXIVM he was unhygienic, lazy, childish. Guess once his focus shifted from conning folks out of their money to tormenting women sadistically he didn’t see the point in pretenses. Speaking of, did anyone else get the impression that Raniere was perhaps m*lested by his mother? He shows many signs, not to mention in an interview with Grace Park he mentions that he was considering running away from home at age 14. Undoubtedly, Keith is a monster, and having an unloving, abusive mother isn’t any excuse for his vileness, but in Ep.1 of S1 of The Vow there was a strange moment near the end of the episode where I think Keith was approached by Mark and it looked like he was on the verge of tears. Disconcerting seeing pure evil look like he’s struggling not to cry… it’s so tempting to wonder whether there was a moment where a wall was breached somehow? Or maybe just having a bad day and caught at the wrong time. Either way, Keith obviously needed an EM more than anyone, and it’s the only footage where he seems even remotely human. Otherwise cold and reptilian despite his best efforts to radiate warmth. I think it’s just hard to believe and accept that this wickedness really exists in the world so I can see how people like Mark and Bonnie with worldly, noble intentions project their goodness onto others. It’s true that we don’t see others as they are, we see others as we are. I cannot imagine the mental and emotional fortitude extricating oneself from a cult takes, and to be willing to relive it all to broadcast awareness and potentially save others from a similar fate… props to Mark and all survivors. What a story.

[@philosopher2king]

Keith is a person after all, so I'm sure he had feelings, what he didn't have and didn't cultivate was actual empathy. Or he had empathy to the extent that he needed something of someone, then they became just things. I am SURE he had bouts of uncontrollable crying on occasion - people like him are needy AF, which is why they get obsessed with obedience and the promise (vow) from people not to leave them ever. Keith didn't know it, he thought he was smarter than everyone and pulling one on everybody, but he was his own worst enemy. Stupid enough to think he could do this and never pay the piper. Now he has the rest of his life to think about that in a long federal sentence (no parole) Enjoy prison, Keith!

[@CFAshow5359]

@@philosopher2king​​⁠It seems he had sufficient cognitive empathy but was wholly lacking in compassionate feeling. L Ron Hubbard was apparently known to shut himself up in his room and sob with any implosion to his fragile ego. Keith’s prison nickname is “Crybaby Jane” because he is sometimes heard spontaneously crying, for seemingly no reason at all. He’s tried to appeal his case multiple times, though I’m sure he knows it’s a losing game - his biggest fear, as a narcissist, is fading into obscurity. At the very least, fighting his conviction gives him an audience (his attorneys). Funny thing about narcissists is they don’t fear abandonment so much as losing receptacles for their disavowed shame, or their “supply” of adoring sycophants. I assume that’s what distinguishes these people from, say, something with a borderline personality organization. It looks like Keith will remain remorseless and unrepentant for the remainder of his days.

[@champigranja1179]

Mark was way more involved and now's playing the victim (we get it, nobody wants to go to jail): - He recruited thousands of people to NXIVM and earned great money from it. He doesn't mention this in the documentary, he just wants to be the "altruistic guy". - He was practically Keith's shadow and was probably the closest person to him. He followed him everywhere with his camera FOR 7 YEARS but, strangely, never noticed anything weird about Keith? Unless he's blind or suffers from Alzheimer, he did, but had too much to lose and decided to play dumb. - Mark also manipulated people to stay in the cult, such as India. India had been in the group for too long and was still working there FOR FREE. The moment she finally got a well paying seasonal job outside NXIVM, Mark called her in tears (WTF?) begging her to reject the job. That was just a shitty thing to do! - The worst part is when he totally gaslights his wife when she tells him about Keith having branded, food deprived slaves. Even if he was convinced this wasn't true (which I doubt) the right thing to do was taking some time off with his loved one. His behavior proves that he was terrified because he knew too much and could get legally fucked. Plus, with what face you acknowledge to your wife that you have been supporting a depraved leader all these years? He was being cautious and the moment everything was exploding, he decided to change sides and take legal actions against Keith.

[@hhpc7977]

You’re forgetting one big detail. He was also part of another cult called Ramtha during 10 years too before NXIVM 😵‍💫 he was already a cult survivor way back and the fact that he ended up in another cult makes me even worried about him

[@mariohood789]

✨ 𝐩яⓞ𝓂𝓞Ş𝐦

[@monica_richardson]

I hope he gets his due in prison . Im sure he will - he's such a bully and more. Calling people himself and master Im sure the tough guys in prison will teach him some lessons. WOW " from the mission statement There are No VICTIMS !!! WTF total lie. of course there are perps and victims.

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

Mr. Vicente my name is Lasher I talk into my phone so it’s actually LASHA and I used to work at Jenny Craig I worked there from 20 to 35 and they had a picture of Jenny Craig they had these meetings all over the place and oh my gosh you want to talk about a little bit Kulti I got laid off from there because I wasn’t indoctrinated I always pushed against what they said and the reason that I got laid off is because I did not fit in to their repertoire and I didn’t realize till after watching the Val the vowed that Jenny Craig is a cult because when I laughed it took me 12 years to get my life together because I would try to implement what I learned at Jenny Craig at other businesses that I worked at and they didn’t understand what I was talking about and I still struggle with it and I actually sued the company and one like one as in yay yay I’m a winner but at the end the lawyer got most of the money and I was jobless and it’s taking me almost 15 years to get my life back together and this didn’t have anything to do with sex calls or anything like that this organization was mostly run by women and wow I really hope that Sara and her husband I don’t know his name Anthony nippy yourself and I remember Bonnie I bought her album in Vancouver in 2002 or three God damn I wish she was singing again you better get back to your filmmaking and just forget this and honestly nobody speaks up I guess Jenny Craig I have no problem doing that and I have proof behind it So you or Sara or somebody looking to Jenny Craig for their podcast a little bit Kulti

[@hhpc7977]

You crazy mam?

[@hagar9842]

Hello! I am watching season 2 right now. Am I the only one who feels zero sympathy for Pam Cafritz? She seems like a monster, as bad or worse than Raniere. And she knew it.

[@raynehell1217]

He may well have murdered her, which makes him worse

[@hagar9842]

@@raynehell1217 I honestly believe he did. But also? She bankrolled him first. She made him seem acceptable to others. Even though she knew he was attacking children--children she helped groom for him.

[@raynehell1217]

@@hagar9842 Under his influence. The common denominator is his demonic power over people. No way is she worse, however compromised and corrupted. Myra Hindley did terrible things to kids, but without the malign influence of Ian Brady, she'd never have gone as far as she did

[@hagar9842]

@@raynehell1217 I get that perspective, and I admit that I do not have all the facts and may be wrong. But I actually get more Paul Bernardo/Karla Homolka vibes here. She was "under his influence," sure, but she kinda seemed to get off on bringing him more victims and helping him groom them, whether they were full grown women or little girls. There was no way she didn't know what she was doing, and that it was wrong, when she helped him groom that 12-year-old dog walker he assaulted, for instance. To me, she was a submissive who voluntarily gave herself over to his every whim as a sexual act, even if it meant turning off her own moral judgment and responsibility in order to do so. You don't get to do that and then still be the "oblivious victim." She seemed to know what she was doing, she seemed to know it hurt others, and she either didn't care or she liked it. That's evil.

[@raynehell1217]

@@hagar9842 He's a high functioning psychopath preying on people's pain, emotions, weaknesses, resentments, ignorance etc. and exploiting them. She's a lesser evil, rather than not evil

[@barbaras178]

Are you going to pay any of the tens of thousands of dollars that you made to the victims your direct actions, as Keith's right-hand man, caused? You ruined lives just like Keith and the fact that you keep profiting from that is very disturbing.

[@raynehell1217]

Don't shoot Mark, he's only the film-maker. From 'What the #$*! Do We (K)now!?' to glorifying god-on-earth Raniere to 'The Vow', that's entertainment

[@conniggit]

My favorite part was when you and Bonnie were in the coffee shop and the girl said "oh yeah I had a meeting with them, I knew it was a cult right away" and you two were like...uhhhhhh.

[@geraldinecarleton1203]

Tell Sara that there is a Jenny Craig on Broadway in Vancouver because I used to live there I actually went to Nexium I thought it was a job and I thought oh my God these people are so weird so red flags years and years and years ago and it’s hard when you dedicate your life to something you find out it’s all a lie Jenny Craig is a weight loss company she should go there for a consultation and tell me tell you you go do you think it’s a cult a good good topic for your show it’s about weight loss it’s not a tangible product you’re selling you’re selling a dream but then you’re also selling people food because it’s a weight loss program and it perpetuates peoples insecurities and you’re trained to sell as much food as you can and overcome “objections“ and you they teach you to simply use peoples words against them so that they’re trapped into buying a $300 program and leave their spending $500 to lose weight some people would spend up to $6000 in six months it was a rip off rip off rip off maybe 2% of people there would keep their weight off for us extended period of time because it’s a lifestyle change is difficult and they exploited people and they exploited employees firing me was a big mistake but if you look at even I live in Canada I broke my femur I was in a wheelchair for one year because the Doctor Who performed the surgery didn’t say anything I had to take it upon myself to get one other opinion it was broken as the day is it happened and I was in that chair for five months at the point and then after my corrective surgeries it was almost a year till I was able to put my toe to the ground there’s a culture in every work environment including surgeons and there was nothing I could do to sue that doctor I Canada there’s two years so I’ve gone through a lot of shit in my life too we all do but I’m just trying to give you an idea try Jenny Craig look into it for a podcast that’s not my thing on podcast I sing and I’m doing my own singing to talk about my experience with the healthcare system but not using healthcare system words using sort of other analogies as it were and I just think that you and your wife and all of the people involved that got out and even the people that are still in people should not harbour resentment to those people nobody should harbour resentment to anybody yes Freneri stole years of your life but you’ve got to take responsibility to just like Jenny Craig took years of my life and how many times did my gut telling me to leave so there is a part of us that has to take a little bit of responsibility if we’re absolutely aware of ourselves but that Keith Rosemary he’s a sick man he’s very sick and it’s sad all the way around for everybody but you’ve got a life ahead of you and sodas Sara so is your wife and and I hope the other girls if they wanna hang onto that let them who is it to speak of how people can live if they want toYet I see how that mother of that Indian girl India I don’t know her last name I know that the mother is related to Prince Charles which means she’s related to prince Andrew I wouldn’t want to tell anybody that if I were them but it any rate I’m just babbling in my phone now I’m just talking like a stream of consciousness here so do with it what you will and I think you’re very talented and you’re very interesting smart man and your wife is just one of my favourite singers