The "Wackiest" Use For A Lamp | Hardly Heroes Ep. 7

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[@omernissan686]

i like the little talks before games, the best banter happens there

[@melibaws2328]

Absolutely. Some of his Rise of Drekis banter on twitch VOD are pure gold.

[@DatChrizma]

Based and true pilled

[@LonnyH]

Lanterns shed light in a 30ft radius. It lights up the entire room. The flashlight comparison doesn’t make sense because the flashlight directs the light in one direction but the lantern sheds light in a 360 degree field.

[@thewingedserpent5823]

not if you cover all the sides and only let a small space open

[@Rager473]

I also enjoy the chit chat before the game!!

[@marianomartino2282]

I agree with Nick. I miss the preshow banter. All these youths that just want to play, can't even chat for a second. 😄

[@GreenZerg]

thank you!

[@TopLaneChad]

the lantern is so wacky bro. peak neal wacky. it feels like it's on the same level as Tyrael whipping out his lightstone to attack, then whipping out a darkness stone after he attacks for bonuses and minuses on attack rolls like a strobelight. But even then he was using a magic item and not a mundane lantern

[@melibaws2328]

bruh you guys are rolling lik shit LMAOO What just happened was a bunch of burglars wnt into their house, a fight broke out with everyone fumbling with daggers and swords, one guy burns himself, and the bandits run away. What a wacky home alone aahh interaction.

[@jamesreynolds8509]

Alright, next campaign you play a bunch of lvl 0 amputee outcasts in the age of heros. You get no xp and every NPC attacks on sight.

[@number1360]

It is nighttime. Alert the army to drop their shields and light their lanterns. Tonight, we make battle.

[@EmperorTomatoKetchup]

Should have titled this episode: Neal Doesn’t Understand That Light Reflects Off of Surfaces | Hardly Heroes Ep. 7

[@rNeoNr]

I get Neal's point on the hooded lantern, but he then says that if they did it out in the open, Nick and Mout could just split and surround him so he could only hit one, but Mout tried to flank him here and Neal ruled that the dude could just swing it back and forth and blind both of them anyway? Also them not being able to hit him/the light without a called shot/penalty seems a bit bs, there's no way the guy could be anywhere other than where he looked like he was when they were all stood in the doorway, it's a small 10x10 and an even smaller doorway, am I missing something?

[@S-fp7uz]

The McGarys in Tombs of Scoria had a easier time hitting demons in a big room full of magical darkness than these two have in a tiny, cramped room that they are intimately familiar with and have seen everyone in, because after that a lantern started flicking on and off.

[@MrMctastics]

(Bush lantern v Gore) In a per curiam decision by the Supreme Court, lanterns are better than shields when Koibu is ambushing the party

[@luisgonzaga9286]

This episode Neal was 100% trying to end this campaign and Pigeon was also trying his hardest to die, I'm glad that everyone got what they wanted. Nick was forced to watch this torture session.

[@chibisphere]

46:00 (2:21:00 also) In tombs of scoria Neil did multiple times penalize them for trying to squeeze in too small of a space and not allow them to withdraw, fight, or even move in exactly and very similar scenarios. His overly harsh rulings on such things made it so they couldnt all particpate in countless fights, albeit entertaining at times. He would pull out rulings on the fly to get Imric trapped under boulders or have someone incapable of fighting, all sorts of creative ways he came up with to increase difficulty (which i praise) but typically on the fly. Even the final battle went as slow as it did due to his harsh rulings on squeezing units past other units... apparently small humanoids cant move past a dragon, and the smaller dragon cant fit down the primary hall designed for a way larger humungous dragon without 'squeezing', thus limiting the scale of the fight. Partly why the campaign was so long and slow to end was the players 'choosing' the arduous safe approach to fully equip themselves, help and save their army several times, end the war, and ultimately bring their army... planning and slow rolling the finale to secure an easy victory. Niel finds ways through his rulings to dismiss all of that as best as he can to make it a proper finale spectacle, which has benefits, i dont necessarily disagree with him doing that in that case, its all that made the Scoria fight worth playing out at all and made sense at that time. However when you see it playout as a viewer, it was at times a bit dismissive of a ton of the time and effort spent earlier, things a viewer is listening too intently and expecting to matter or payoff are often overlooked, discarded, dismissed, or worked around by the DM in order to keep things either simplified or challenging mechanically for the players... but theres a risk of making all that prior effort feel meaningless at the cost of creating a risky encounter sometimes (which is a fair hard choice as a dm). Anyways, despite all that, later some of the same rulings used to subvert or dismiss the very same players' efforts in prior campaigns is being reverse ruled or altered to their detriment when they are underdog underpowered characters, just as it was used to benefit the underdog npcs in other campaigns, hence why it can 'feel' unfair imo. In ToS and Fro Fro he would penalize throwing (wether its a rock or a javelin) for anyone lacking a related thrown/range weapon proficiency, but here no rock throw proficiency or called shot is necessary. Does it make sense in irl terms that someone can just drop a rock on you? Ofcourse it does, and dragons didnt need a proficiency or disadvantage roll to drop rocks on people from half a mile in the sky either. But its inconsistent, Neil would in plenty instances argue that its not just about what makes sense, this is fantasy and a system based on numbers, so we have to bend the rules to fit the mechanics at times like this, such as why someone should die or drown based on not what makes sense irl in real time, and refuse to bend rules towards realism when it would trivialize a challenge... but his defense argument would be akin to 'sometimes we must simply adhere to mechanical numerical standards of the game because otherwise its just too complicated'. Meanwhile other times we must overcomplicate what is or isnt realistic to defend a new mechanical ruling in a scenario that blindsides players to increase difficulty and tension... which i think would go over smoother if he just admits to the inconsistency, leaves less to argue about atleast lol. I love Niel as a DM overall hence why i watch all his campaigns, but just saying he doesnt always openly admit to his players his bias at times like this, or so it seems as a viewer. It would prolly be easier for players to swallow if he admitted that he bends and creates rulings on the fly (he does admit rulings vary from campaign to campaign, but not in these moments where players feel ambushed by new rulings than what they are used to), and he can create unfair difficulty at times to push the boundaries of the game and his players, which isnt bad, but i think the way he deflects and defends it can at times makes it feel more harsh in the moment. Players who known and played with him a long time are repeatedly caught by surprise by his rulings, in every campaign ive watched so far, and he often tends to play it off as if this is super normal and always been normal, totally reasonable. Thats funny if everyones in on an inside joke, but sometimes uncertain how intentional and self aware it is as a viewer. In some cases he pushes a new ruling to increase difficulty for the players and defends it in ways that indirectly imply the players are silly for even considering arguing about it, when it makes obvious sense to debate it a bit when it contradicts their experience of how certain rulings have been used for or against them in other campaigns. Well, as a viewer it comes off this way sometimes, but as I said, i find him and his campaigns and players entertaining regardless. Just an observation/opinion of moments like this, which i also find entertaining hehe. TLDR - Sometimes wish Neil would just say outright "Yup, Im springing this adjustment or new rulings from what you regardless what happened before because by happenstance it not only makes sense to do so in this situation, it works against you and makes things harder on you when i think its an optimal moment to punish players for certain decisions or lack of foresight, planning, roleplay, ect... and I may or may not take enjoyment in doing this :P . You can use this ruling to your advantage later if you survive... but maybe only in this campaign, or only as long as we remember it.... many rulings are used once and discarded, altered in opposite favor, or reargued over later multiple times due to simply forgetting about it hehe.

[@GreenZerg]

Just to say I read this whole th ing, well thought out comment. It does feel like its gaslighting a little at times to be honest HOWEVER at this point I just roll with it because it is what it is and you have to trust Neal at the end of the day that he has a good reason. EDIT: Also you can basicaly never win these arguments so its somewhat futile to try.

[@chibisphere]

@@GreenZerg

[@GreenZerg]

Thanks for the kind words! Hope that you continue to enjoy the show ​@@chibisphere

[@Actually21IQ]

Pre-show banter is one of my favorite parts of the show. I loved Chit Chat so much. Being a long time viewer, I always looked forward to everyone just talking before all the shows, then they started making it a live thing, and it made me sad.

[@fernandoarrieta2364]

Mr.Mouton got chased by Low Tier god and his minions

[@Armpitfan]

I love the banter! Helps you relate to the players and not only the player characters! Save or die is hosted by 5 people not 15 or so characters

[@Dictator1999]

Neal moment

[@sauracifer3557]

wacky session indeed

[@hicctooth]

That Lantern rulling is the most absurd random shit Ive ever seen, cant even watch this tbh

[@SudlaSteel]

gotta just take it in stride and have fun with it. Wacky rulings are gonna happen occassionally and if it doesn't end in complete disaster, ie: a character dying, it's fine since the players will get to use it in the future

[@melibaws2328]

Seal Team Six damn you gotta love Neal

[@Aaron-sb6kx]

Lantern > Shield 🤯🤯🤯

[@jameskeenan7651]

I wait as long as i can whilst watching the video before commenting but 'Steal Team 6' 😄

[@chriswinkler4663]

Im not at the point of the alley being a dead-end or not being resolved or not, but I will say Neal previously mentioned that these alleys are extremely long and there often are no crossroads from where to get into them, soooo...

[@jakobaltintas9131]

The statue was not on the alter, it was hidden under the bed. no way they found it

[@sirbittle]

I love this series!

[@Fluiddruid4k]

I wonder if nick has ever thought about making a character that doesn’t get knocked out every fright smh

[@helbovine]

Why do bad things happen to good players

[@RuecianGray]

I really wanted to see this campaign have a little story unfold. But so far nothing has really led to anything important. And that is probably because Mout and Nick have chosen to avoid all of the gangs completely rather than get involved with one. It also seems like this campaign was doomed to not go very far just because two thief characters with daggers just can't do dick-all in 2e combat. And combat seems like its going to be inevitable in a campaign about gang violence and hard living. My guess was that Neal was probably expecting the players to give up in their house when they realized it was 2v6, and that hunting down Steal Team Six would be the story hook. But i can't blame them for not giving up when they literally just finally got their hands on some money and then its taken away instantly. If this campaign continues, you guys really need to pick one of the gangs and get involved. If all you are going to do is avoid them 100% and steal gold, there isn't really any reason for this campaign to exist. There are probably all kinds of interesting inter-gang stories happening, and thats where all of the politics, treasure, and dungeons are. Make some shady deals. Get involved with a Gang. Make some friends, betray some people, anything other than just "living".

[@GreenZerg]

I've been trying to get in the Pittmen this whole time to be fair. Good comment though, I agree we need some more to go off to make it interesting.

[@G3rex]

I dunno, I think so far the story has been very setting-appropriate. Two nobodies floundering in the mud and trying to pick themselves without siding with anyone, and it coming back to bite them in the ass since they're such an easy mark without protection from the gangs. Perhaps an unpopular opinion, it's really fun to just follow the story of two nobody thugs. As for 'two rogues in 2e', yeahhh, kind agreed. Maybe one of them could end up multiclassing/dualclassing at some point (like Pidgeon into cleric or something).

[@HidroGen2021]

Neal i think you need to balance this campaign better, the house attack was basically a gold reset too 0 or a tpk on average rolls as it was 6v2. The alley fight was basically a torture for info or die even on bad rolls as it was 4v1. It doesn't make any sense and it's not fun to watch ( or to play i bet)

[@MagnificentXXBastard]

Mout got himself into the alleyfight tbh. Why tell these guys who he is and that he will come for them?

[@lowlife4103]

How were the wet bandits supposed to know that somebody might break into their house and take their stuff?? It could have been telegraphed, maybe by hearing about other people getting robbed in the night. Or seeing a burglary happen. This came out of nowhere. A d to think, I trusted Hudson. Tsk tsk.

[@crocobroco4654]

But it was pidgeons fault. He tried too hard with them. Could have just looked for 5 minutes and try to ask the bartender and go away...

[@lowlife4103]

@@crocobroco4654 /S Neil gave them every sign to not trust Hudson or the copperheads. Then our boys caught somebody tailing them home and ganked him. Good shit, but that made them complacent. Nick was very clear that the person following them was the sort to hang around the bar looking to get an odd job offered by the copperheads (same as Nick was trying to do). So the logical conclusion was that somebody sent that kid to follow them home. Let's call that somebody "Da Boss". If you're Da Boss and your spy gets killed, do you give up on your target? I think sending in a team of goons to rob the target is a fine follow up plan. The counter to this play was nick and mouton needed to either hide their valuables, or change homes and hide the new location. Trusting the copperheads after getting a bad vibe was a mistake.

[@lowlife4103]

I think the math is only slightly against the wet bandits there. If they are fighting in a defensible position, say doorway with some furniture blocking it, the odds are in their favor. If only 2 raiders can fight then the wet bandits have a small advantage in dps ac and hp. Why our boys have daggers and not d6 damage weapons is on them. Morale is the kicker, just like it played out. If the wet bandits had average luck that fight is theirs 75% I bet. I think it would count as a Deadly Encounter, even with the raider boss using a magic lantern 😉 In an open field, surrounded 6 v 2, yeah that's unfair.

[@omernissan686]

dont understand why do they just accept neal's bs random rules everytime

[@generalenbenjamin1673]

Did you watch frozen frontier? Lots of questionable ruling, at least imo, happened there and it took such a long time to resolve each one and Neal barely budged on any. Also the logic with the bullseye lantern is sooo far away from being reality. Its a modern day tactic bc a small LED flashlight used by cops/army is extremely more powerfull than a lantern, its pretty hard to focus with a flashlight like that shining in your face even in broad daylight. With Neals logic you wouldt be able to see a persons face if they stood with their back to a firepit and you had both the firepit and the persons face in view, pretty ridiculous take imo.

[@melibaws2328]

@@generalenbenjamin1673 uh, no. You can see someone around a fire pit because the light source is not only on the ground, there's arguably a reasonable distance between you two and your eyes have enough time to adjust to the light condition. In this case the light source is presumably close to the bearer's face and away from the target. What happened is no different from someone turning a flashlight on and off or swinging it in and out of your face.

[@generalenbenjamin1673]

@@melibaws2328 I did't say around a firepit, both people would be on the same side of the fire in my example. A lightsource is a lightsource but the lumen a lantern and a modern day LED puts out are far from equal. If you had a buddy crouching down infront of a firepit and you on the same side of the fire, so his head is directly infront of it but not blocking all of it from your PoV you can still see the facial features if its a bondfire -similar to what a lantern puts out, make it a raging inferno more akin to modern LEDs then all you see is a shadow.

[@melibaws2328]

@@generalenbenjamin1673 they're not on the same side then its not comparable. Neals rulling seems fair and real.

[@SandyHerringPoE]

@@melibaws2328 Just tried smacking my lil bro with a flashlight to my face, sucker maybe got a +1 to AC but i still got him ez lol

[@S-fp7uz]

This reminds me of that ToD npc that could outrun a bolt of lightning (because the lightning had to cross a whole room, while he was near a video) jump out of a window and simultanously execute an attack with advantage, because his jump caused him to be high in the air and therefore have high ground.

[@GreenZerg]

No way that happened. That sounds insane 🤣

[@cheatyhotbeef2636]

game of throws

[@hardyjesus7892]

whacky

[@Koibu0]

I stand by the lamp ruling so hard. Don't listen to these misleading video titles. That's just big PC trying to sell you something

[@tallslimguy777]

The DM CAN NOT just make up rules like this. That is completely unfair to the players.