The War Does Not Go Well For Us GKar.

[@Dan-wx2nl]

"In the final analysis, your work here could be more important than a fleet of ships." G'Sten had no idea how correct he was, his nephew became the freaking Dalai Lama of the Narn, its spiritual core for the next chapter of history.

[@Fable_7]

The Narn can't catch a damn break

[@demarcusfaulkner7411]

The worst part of it is the narn didn't realize how doomed they truly were.

[@Bullski123]

William Morgan Shepard as G`sten has such a charismatic appearance and cool voice.

[@andrewnlarsen]

He was also one of the candidates for G'Kar.

[@hornet1blue]

He was also good as a Soul Hunter in another B5 episode and the Voyager Episode Bliss as an embattled Alien fighting against a gigantic man and machine eating space entity. Think there may have been a Next Generation episode as well

[@glowing571]

Katsulas was such a great actor. He could summon such tangible emotion in these scenes, like saying goodbye to his uncle. It almost drips from his voice like tears. Underrated.

[@spartybrearly7221]

Jerry Doyle once described Katsulas as a ‘stealth actor’

[@freezetasticvoyage19]

RIP to Andreas Katsulas, Jerry Doyle, and W. Morgan Sheppard.

[@trebleking1641]

"If we make them pay for every inch of space...." "Gee, we never thought of that..." says every crippled and traumatised Narn soldier on the front lines...

[@Bobaklives]

0:25 put a good actor with a great voice in the heavier make up roles and they become convincing and compelling. William Morgan Sheppard was on B5 twice, as the 1st season Soul Hunter (with a great line “They’re using you” which was used again when they gave Sinclair his send off) and then here - and he was on Star Trek a few times, my favorite was the Klingon warden of “gulag” (his word) Rura Penthe.

[@CrisisComics]

I remember him as Colonel Hargrove from the Medal of Honor series. I already recognized him as the Soul Hunter guy, but it was only here with the context that I realized the connection.

[@Balt21Raven]

By far this was his most sympathetic role that I've seen. Always remembered this random Narn because of his performance.

[@F40PH-2CAT]

"If this fails i'll have to give my right eye to save us"

[@marcelojj2009]

GKar strategic resume: We will win by losing.

[@BrigadierBill]

It reminds me of Japan's WWII strategy to use attrition to make the British and Americans lose interest. Its great on paper until you realize you have no cards to play if an industrially-superior opponent just keeps grinding you into nothing.

[@patrickwilkinson7351]

@@BrigadierBill To be fair, winning by attrition is a valid strategy. In Japan's case, their main problem was that they tried to wage a war of attrition with their primary supplier of gas and other raw materials.

[@kyrridas1573]

correction: by losing _well._

[@richtea615]

The Narns wanted a war, well they got one.

[@ancientfishing]

they didn't predict that Chuck Norris would come and roundhouse kick their fleet in the face.

[@karagothshlomidabush3727]

G’Sten was an amazing stratigist .. if only the shadows were not helping the centauri ...who knows what might have been

[@F40PH-2CAT]

This is bad strategy. He was reckless.

[@karagothshlomidabush3727]

@@F40PH-2CAT you are so very wrong...i played strategy all my life ...and i am in the top 100 strategist in the world...take my word for it...the guy was good ! Very very good !

[@dreamingflurry2729]

@@F40PH-2CAT Which is sometimes needed in fighting! Audacity and posturing is a decent strategy if your enemy buys it (Sun Tsu says the same, you should appear strong if weak and weak if strong, because either will make the enemy make the wrong moves if they don't know better! They'll attack if they think you weak and will lose or they'll stop and regroup (or don't even attack in the first place) if they think you strong!)

[@Gothic7876]

@@F40PH-2CAT not really. It makes sense. He just didn’t factor in The Shadows. Which he can’t be blamed for.

[@nelsonchereta816]

If the Shadows weren't involved the Centauri would have never started the war in the first place. By this point the Narn were about in the position the Germans were in say January 1944. The war isn't lost yet, but the odds are growing very long against them. In a situation like that, playing it safe means, you will lose more slowly but you will certainly lose. Under those circumstances taking a desperate gamble that might buy you time at the risk of immediate catastrophic defeat is the right choice. The fact the Shadows were involved meant the Narn never had a real chance but given what they knew it was the only call.

[@DLordSadow]

Sadly, G’Sten was truly saying “goodbye” to G’Kar. 😢 I can’t help but wonder if the Narns could have fought off the Centauri if the Shadows hadn’t helped them. 🤔

[@TheBigExclusive]

Imo, Narn still would have lost, but it would have been much closer. And taken much longer. Narn's military wasn't quite as good as the Centauri's. But still formidable.

[@demarcusfaulkner7411]

It would have been one hell of a fight.

[@thomas.parnell7365]

That and buy time to evacuate a least a few million or minimum 50000 narn to another planet under the sector control of perhaps the minbari under truce of mercy until a better solution could be found maybe a planet far off known chart s at least stand a chance at starting a new civilization

[@Relugus]

"In the final analysis, what you do here may be more important than a fleet of ships."

[@lunaticbz3594]

The Narns I believe definitely had enough military power that they could've stalled the Centauri advance. Dragged out the war and eventually settled with just a lose of some of their outer colonies and territories. The Shadows really did the heavy lifting for the Centauri, without them the Centauri still have an advantage but not a big enough advantage to take the Narn home world, or blitz through their territory. Like they did with the Shadows help.

[@itsnodawayitustabe5654]

His entire plan hinged on there being Centauri Ships to defend the base, not Shadows. Which let the Centauri mass their forces at Narn. If only G'Kar had been able to articulate his suspisions of another Race being involved

[@Lightsoul1987]

Even without the shadows, this plan was doomed to fail. Because the Narn were not only relying on this action to only fight against the Centauri, but also that it would be a surprise attack. But as we know from the conversation between Lord Refa and Londo, the Centauri already knew about the planned attack. Instead of the shadows, the Narn had encountered a prepared superior Centauri fleet that would have been already waiting for them. From one trap to the next. I don't see how the Narn could have won this.

[@Imperialistic82]

I wonder if the Shadows didn't intervene and Refa sent a large force of Centauri ships instead prepared for the Narns attack, what would the outcome be for the war?

[@patrickwilkinson7351]

Well, it depends on just how big a force the Centauri were able to send. The Narn already knew the planet would have been heavily guarded, and they had prepared several worst case scenarios. If the Narns were able to fight their way through the defense fleet and knock out the supply line, at the very least, it would have forced the Centauri to halt their offensive until their logistics train was rebuilt. However, if the Centauri were able to hold off a Narn attack and protect their supply lines, than in all likelihood nothing major would change beyond both sides losing a large amount of ships.

[@jonreese7066]

The Centauri will win the war even without the shadows. The question will just be how long and how many more lives are lost. The Narns lost 7 of 8 major engagements. That tells you a lot. The Centauri would have laid an ambush. They knew the Narn were coming. If the Centauri fleet was waiting they could destroy thw narns as they were coming out. G'Sten said even in the worst case they would have enough surviving ships to defend the Homeworld. Even against the Shadows the Narn could have fled if it were not for the jumpoint disruptor. The Centauri could have sacrificed or evacuated their supply base sacrifice it and attack the Narn homeworld with mass drivers until they surrendered. In either scenario Narn would loose4

[@clairestark9024]

The centauri would have defended the system with their own ships. The narn defeated was accelerated not caused by the shadows intervention.

[@avae5343]

The Centauri would still have won because even though they were decadent their technology and military were second only to the Minbari. Even without the Shadows they were beating the Narn - the Battle of Gorash just hastened the inevitable.

[@christerry8531]

The weird thing about the war is we never saw any evidence of the narn hiring mercenaries from other factions or hell hiring private military units hell even today PMCs have armor warplanes and ships I mean I'm willing to bet some human PMC has a few Olympic corvettes or Hyperion class frigates hell maybe even a Omega destroyer

[@isaac3702]

During this time, Earth was taking a neutral stance with Clark as president, so there's a good chance that EarthGov wouldn't allow human PMC to join the fight. As to the other factions, the Minbari weren't getting involved, and the members of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds wouldn't get involved in a war between the Narn and the Centauri for fear of reprisals.

[@PaiSAMSEN]

@@isaac3702 It doesn't help that the Narn ailenated a lof of other powers though their agressive expansion and military build up prior to the war, in their overcompensating attempt to ensure the Centauri cannot do what they did to them again. Ironically, it's the exact same backstory that turn the Centauri into expansionist power that conquer Narn in the first place.

[@jullianbashir18]

The story writers make it sad that narns are fighting on a suicide attempt not knowing that centauri has the shadows til that very day

[@florinivan6907]

'The centauri want a quick victory.' I don't think anyone has ever specifically wanted a long war just because without a logical reason.Then again alien sensibilities might be different from human ones.

[@byzantiphile7630]

That's a fair point. However, typically, when people say they "want a quick victory" they mean "they're only willing to fight a short war "

[@biocapsule7311]

Well the Shadows wanted war eternal.

[@Jagent]

Depends on whether or not your long war is profitable. Especially to those in charge. Empires often run on a deficit, and expand so they can sustain themselves on the loot of their neighbors.

[@patrickwilkinson7351]

Generally speaking, what it means in that context is that the Centauri want to win the war as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of losses mostly becuase the Republic was in a state of decline. Even though it did still have more power than the Narn, the more time it spent at war meant that it was weakening. That's one of the main complaints Londo had with the wars the Centauri fought afterwards. Each time they started a new conflict, it stretched the Centauri's resources further and further. In all likelihood, the Centauri would have probably collapsed on their own thanks to them spreading themselves too thin.

[@Chuckyboy85]

If only the Vorlons had stepped in here and took out the Shadows. Things could have been very different.

[@dennisfaires208]

The Vorlons considered both the Narn and Centauri as dying races. They didn't care. Humans and Minbari were their concern.

[@supersaiyaman11589]

@@dennisfaires208 why did vorlons consider the narms and centauri as dying races. why did the consider the human race and membar worth saving in your opinion

[@SardonicALLY]

@@supersaiyaman11589 The Vorlons saw that the Narn and Centauri were locked in a death spiral, like a suicide pact with one another... however they were not doomed. In order to effect a different outcome they need only make different choices. Basically the Vorlon were saying ''carry on like this, and it will be the end of both of you''. It might be that with the wisdom of G'kar and the humbling of the broken Centauri Republic during the reign of Emperor Vir that they both change their ways. As for the humans and the Minbari, the Vorlons saw in humanity the capacity to make communities and strengthen ties, and in the Minbari a long history of survival through struggle. This led them to believe those two races would one day transcend their limited corporeal form.

[@TheDeadnaughty]

Remember, the entire cycle of war is planned. The Vorlons and Shadows are simply toying with the lesser races. The Vorlons and Shadows agreed to not attack each other directly and instead wage a proxy war between the lesser races. That is also why Kosh was killed, retribution for breaking the Vorlon/Shadow non aggression pact.

[@avae5343]

The Vorlons couldn’t take out the Shadows. The Shadows were millions of years older than the Vorlons and were either stronger or equal to them.

[@christianresel8051]

... if only they knew about the shadow involvement... Also sad that the Whitestars where not ready by that point (MAYBE the prototype was ready but not enogh to FORCE PEACE). Still, luck has it that this didnt happen to the ukraine, even thou we ALL belived they would not endure 2 weeks against russia, let alone a month.

[@K4n01]

More and more this is Straczynski depicting the Middle East conflict through proxies.

[@shane1648]

Aliens in the future still use inches. Neat.

[@MISANTHROPE00]

Is he the dame actor as the soul hunter from episode 2?

[@Coolman13355]

He plays a Soul Hunter sometime.

[@spartybrearly7221]

Not a sensible strategy - regardless of the Shadows. Much wiser to use focused strikes using special forces.

[@isaac3702]

What special forces, and how would they be inverted when hyperspace has your ships create giant visible vortexes in space?

[@DrownedInExile]

Too bad their projections didn't account for million-year-old Eldritch Abominations.

[@65mustang393]

Sound like the Battle of the Bulge from WW2 and Germany’s last gasp…

[@the_sixxness]

The sad thing is the Centuari didn't need to rely on The Shadows. But they selfishly did so anyway.

[@avae5343]

They did it to retain their forces so they could continue expanding. In a later episode Molari rebukes Rifa for launching assaults on 6 different fronts against 6 minor powers.

[@the_sixxness]

@@avae5343 Exactly it was selfishness. They didn't want to stop with the Narn. They wanted it all. And the Centuari paid the price for that blind ambition. I personally can't wait for the new show. Or the movie coming out in a week. I watched the original pilot in 91. And I watched every episode as it came out when the series started in 93. It's always been my favorite show. And I cant wait to see what Is in store for us moving forward.

[@avae5343]

⁠@@the_sixxnessAll of the powers were motivated by self interest to a degree. It makes sense for the Centauri to use the shadows to strike the Narn fleet rather than use their own. Sheridan convinced Kosh to attack the Shadows, the Rangers used Vorlon technology, the Narn were bullying the league of non-aligned worlds and the Centauri throughout season 1.

[@the_sixxness]

@@avae5343 Sure it makes sense. That dosen't mean it was a good idea. The Centuari paid the ultimate price for their relationship with The Shadows. Their world was invaded without firing a shot. "Some favors come at too high a price." - Vir

[@avae5343]

@@the_sixxness They lost Salini or at least would need to rebuild it as a result of the genocide of the Vorlons but the Drakh were a different issue from the Shadows. Using the Shadows against the Narn was the right thing to do. It’s similar to using atomic bombs Vs invading Japan.

[@Beachdudeca]

It’s the script, but Narn should have sued for Peace

[@terrynewsome6698]

Centauri would only have accepted unconditional surrender at this point. And that is what they got

[@JSolar590]

You can only sue for peace if your side looks stronger than their will to fight. Had the Narn succeeded, it may have looked like the Centauri couldn't have achieved their objectives, which was their goal. Unfortunately, that wasn't the result.

[@JemHadar422]

It’s like Ukraine lol 😂

[@MDE_never_dies]

How?

[@kirishima638]

This has not aged well