The War Within Alpha Destruction Warlock Feedback! Talent Suggestions and Discussion

Here is the Feedback for Destruction Warlock after this weeks War Within Alpha build!
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Business Inquiries - [e-mail]
Intro: 0:00
Destruction Feedback: 0:56
Patreon, Summary and Outro: 21:59
Feedback Doc: docs.google.com/document/d/1c...
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S4 Demonology Guide: • Patch 10.2.6 Demonolog...
S4 Destruction Guide: • Patch 10.2.6 Destructi...
S4 Affliction Guide: • Patch 10.2.6 Afflictio...
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[@trojara2287]

Im with Dratnos on the AoE topic. If classes have a single basic AoE spell and would not be able to deal damage to multiple targets, make it baseline. Mages dont have to skill their flamestrike, blizzard oder arcane explosion. Monks have their spinning crane kick, warriors whirlwind, shamans chain lightning etc. Just make rain baseline and put cata at its place - easy win.

[@fregge3095]

Same with seed, hell, even make it cost baseline 2 shards and in current spot put -1 shard cost

[@superplatinum]

that's correct, that's the same thing they just did for UH DK on Alpha, they gave us Outbreak and Epidemic back, so we won't have to spend talent points on something mandatory.

[@Xileonn]

For destro it easily can be baseline rain/cata and if you want to go more into AOE you could pick up FnB/inferno/charred remains maybe even CFD. 100% agree.

[@floodsye]

Such a simple solution...that they've literally done in several reworks...but won't do for Warlock. 100%, mark my words, this Destro tree in a slightly pruned form, but nothing new or exciting or thematic, will go live for TWW.

[@wowpantslol]

they've placed way too many actual skills into the talent trees in bad positions, for some classes this is just a massive downgrade compared to how it was. Atleast the warlock class tree naturally paths through most of their utility but some classes just cannot get any utility without giving up either most of their defensives or at a big dps loss (druid and warrior)

[@pDalleDq]

Looking epic with the new hair big Kala!

[@1666Lucifer]

The whole getting rid of avatar due to its stun clause makes no sense when most classes have instant cast stuns and destro has what, an aoe stun with a cast time. (Use to be instant, and do a bit of decent damage at that). And then the short stun from summon infernal every 2-3 minutes. Like what....

[@alec_______]

it wasnt removed only because of the stun tho

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

@@alec_______ the other reasons are equally stupid tho

[@mooonpaw]

Totally agree with 2 min Infernal. I detest 3min.

[@dhamongrimmwolf1220]

In the end the problem is not the 3 min infernal but that you do not have another smaller cd. But in fact its our only cd and this is too long. The problem here is also damage loss via utilization. Especially when you have to wait for a centrain sitiuation i nraid or a boss in m+ you have to hold your 3 min cd. a paladin with wings every 1 min can easily pop them all the time since he knows they will be ready. 3 min cd needs lot of preplanning especially in m+. this suxx.

[@Xileonn]

Toggle FnB and Charred Remains are both great idea, moving Ritual of ruin (10 shard baseline) to the left side and making the right side an incinerate side sounds really cool to me. I also think that Decimating bolt with FnB could potentionally feel really strong and I'm 100% sure it looks and feels good to cleave 10 mobis with hard hitting incinerates (it was nerfed to oblivion for a reason back in SL). It even somewhat fixes an old destro issue where you have to setup with immolates and then start spamming rains and insteas of setup you have snap instant direct dmg aoe for fast dieing packs.

[@floodsye]

Big agree, it would also lead to more variety in builds (which Blizzard claims they want...) with options for single target, cleave, heavy snap AoE, heavy slow dying AoE, and in-betweens for differing dungeons and raid fights. But I've got a feeling that this is far beyond what the warlock developers are capable of.

[@Shadhun98]

Get well soon! No matter how good I seem to know warlock, your videos always get so many new and better insights and things I would've not think of. God of warlocks!

[@TheSilverwing999]

Another banger feedback video. I agree with everything you said, and you even mentioned some things that i hadn't even thought of. Love you being our warlock representative ❤ Cata being easily accessible and infernal being a 2 min cd with more impactful effects would go such a long way for destro After that I'm hoping for some good changes to channel demonfire and soulfire in the next alpha build. I hope the devs have something good cooking

[@Kalamazii]

Appreciate that!

[@holasilver7900]

BLIZZARD PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS FEEDBACK KALAMAZI IS RIGHT ON THIS! (Also make rain of fire and seed baseline)

[@dsully225]

It's insane that blizzard releases this tree for destro when you compare it to any of the specs that have been reworked.

[@izumishiba1044]

Kala, really vibin with your suggested changes. Good ideas and hope the devs at blizz wake up and listen so they don't piss off the community again.

[@brunohommerding3416]

Rain of Fire should be baseline like it always used to be, and just move cata up there on the tree

[@ZulatobariGreatforge]

I read the Chaos Incarnate changes as being your mastery is X%-100% damage boost, and the nerfed talent increases the minimum damage increase your mastery provides. I.E., it still reduces the randomness, but still maintains some of it.

[@zaee336]

NGL i just don't have faith, we've seen this song and dance so many times in the past going into alpha->beta->live. One of our specs always ends up getting dogwater changes no one likes and it ends up feeling increasingly more clunky and/or barren. It then usually takes multiple patches of buffs/changes to eventually fix that spec during the xpac and then finally last few patches we scale into monsters as per usual and get super nerfed or pruned going into the next xpac. It seems like it's Destro's turn again and while i'd like to remain hopeful it just feels like we've continually lost more and more things that used to be baseline every xpac since MoP. And we Lock mains all know how much Blizz LOVES Xelnath's original vision for us. Losing Avatar feels like what little remains of Destro feeling "good" to play and like it already feels extremely sparse to begin with. I miss having actual DPS CDs like Dark Soul or actual Doomguard. GoSac has been a meme for years and might as well be removed since no one will likely ever take it over Summoner's Embrace if we path that way. I hate that we're going to be forced into Soul Fire again, it's such an uninteresting ability and doesn't actually solve the lack of meaningful buttons to push since similar to Decimating Bolt, it'll just be a fire and forget CD once we are in execute range. I see no reason why RoF, Cata, SF, CDF, SB and DR all need to be talents. Like any one of RoF/Cata/CDF/DR becoming baseline would go a long way for the Destro rotation to feel more fleshed out again instead of so hollow. Finally a lot of Warlock Capstones are just super weak or uninteresting compared to other classes. When you see like SPriest flexing into 3/4 of their Capstones for their M+ build and it just feels so fluid and good to play compared to us with Avatar and Chaos Incarnate which on Alpha isn't even worth taking atm. Somehow while removing Avatar to make Infernal feel like a "moment" you ended up taking literally the only Capstone that even felt like one to begin with and now Destro feels like it has no thematic identity. I'm sure people will tell me i'm wrong but these are just my feelings from having played Lock for like 14 years now and just watching all three specs merry go round the pruning carousel.

[@Terranoch]

I gave up on warlock class designers too. Come join us in the MoP Classic waiting room

[@Blaylock2]

I agree I don’t think they know the direction they want to go and keep feeding us BS.

[@zaee336]

@@Terranoch I'm really hoping that MoP Remix is like a test run to gauge actual interest in MoP Classic because i do like if it does well we'll see MoP and Legion again which would be fantastic. Honestly even WoD Lock felt great (if you ignore the massacre that happened to Demo thanks to FotDS). Makes me wonder if Mists would also have post-nerf UVLS

[@zaee336]

@@Blaylock2 I don't even understand how every other rework we've seen looks amazing for other classes but yet ours is us eating nerfs yet again?! I mean i guess Affs looks great as long as you don't hate playing MR lol but it's looking like yet another xpac with only one good spec for who knows how long (that's also assuming Aff doesn't eat the usual pre-launch Lock nerfs we always see too)

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

@@zaee336 The WoD demo massacre was one of those "I can't trust Blizzard to do good anymore" moments. Demo was strong, visually interesting, very unique, etc, and Blizzard nerfed them into the ground because they don't personally like demo. I wasn't even playing lock then, but god, that was the one of the worst decisions ever made.

[@virus5877]

Current warlock dev leaves me with ZERO faith in this class going into TWW> Might have to finally make the swap to mage, they're got Three AMAZING looking talent trees right now, and they consistently listen to feedback from players/creators going into changes. Instead of just acting all smug and doubling down on playstyles that have been repeatedly shown to be less popular and less fun. Feel better big dawg!!

[@leviathan8624]

I wish they would add hellfire

[@brunohommerding3416]

Make Rain of Fire baseline again then add Hellfire as a extra option on the tree.. that would be nice

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

That would be sick. Maybe Hellfire replaces RoF when you talent it, does much more damage, but damages you as a way of balancing it. High risk, high reward gameplay.

[@leviathan8624]

Sadly its just hopium because those "devs" would never add something fun to warlock

[@usaid1234]

guys make sure to put these suggestions they're very open to suggestion in pre-alpha, the more you complain about certain talents and give suggesstions in the blue post they recommended the better destro will become

[@forcesaken]

where do you submit the feedback at?

[@forcesaken]

i want to submit my own feedback

[@usaid1234]

@@forcesaken you can only do that if you have access to alpha i believe but you can vote positive for comments even if you dont have access to it i believe

[@forcesaken]

@@usaid1234 i had things i wanted to add that werent in his video. and i disagree with removing pyrogenics. i think they should make rof baseline, cata top node, and leave inferno where it is. pyro will synergize with the 2 of them and further increase aoe dmg since everything being hit with rof will take increased fire dmg which is everything also afflicted by immolate. or making shadowfury instant cast again with a reduced cd since theyre taking away our blasphemy. rof baseline or even cata will also allow us to atleast do some aoe in a st build just like other classes can

[@kholio4377]

a million percent. F&B toggle made ST into AoE feel cool and unique and was Fun. And it hit properly. Creating an Infernal that hits hard anyway, then adding dimension to its effect/gameplay is what I have been waiting for for 16yrs. I am wondering why the devs also can’t work out that Destro players are looking for DESTRUCTION. CDF could add a stacking debuff. So in ST the stacks are maxed on one thing. In AoE it spreads around universally creating minor general increases. Or the debuff could interplay with RoF or Cata so that theres a chance to proc a free insta SF or CB. Or with the CDF debuff incin hits all affected targets. FTLOG there are so many ways to weave these spells into each other to create opportunities to flex. I am amazed that we still get ‘reworks’ that remove fun stuff like Avatar and replaced with DB. Like in what metric is that Thematic. 🙄🤡🤦🏻‍♂️

[@themadllama4949]

I do think infernal should be more centralized in the tree as it seems iconic for destro. I am not excited at the premise of decimating bolt coming back either, I would rather them make a capstone that alters chaos bolt (increase cast time but increase dmg or something, or vice versa).

[@dunz-uk4wg]

I kinda like the idea of each spec having its respective demon being the first point in the tree, so aff/darkglare, destro/infernal, demo/tyrant. It immediately gives each spec its thematic flavor, you dont have to take weird pathing just to get to your main CD, and opens up the bottom of the tree for more exciting talents.

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

@@dunz-uk4wg That's actually a really good idea. Kinda like how Cataclysm specs would instantly give you the core ability of that spec, e.g. Starsurge.

[@mebrandonb]

Hope you're feeling better soon dude.

[@Kalamazii]

I appreciate it

[@CritteRino]

On the idea of baking in crashing chaos into infernal and making the Big Demon Cooldowns stronger, instead of just making Chaos bolt and rain of Fire stronger they could also let the infernal do an appropriate single target/AOE attack. Even without changing the power that would be way cooler than just having Chaos bolt now does x amount more dmg 8 times.

[@dantedante8837]

watching the devs try to fix destruction is like watching monkeys try to extinguish a fire, but the only thing they have is gasoline

[@DEUS_VULT_INFIDEL]

I imagine if blizzard hears this criticism of GWD they'll end up removing Rain of Chaos instead, and say it's because they feel the extra Infernals make your base Infernal feel less impactful. Edit: Also, if they're worried about Blasphemy looking too much like Infernal, they can just make it a felfire elemental. Warlocks already command void elementals, they're called Voidwalkers, so it's perfectly sensible. Far more sensible than just outright removing it.

[@RyneNeilan]

I kinda would like one of the old cata talents to help soulfire, where it applies a dot for half its dmg or gives a boost to fire dmg for a bit after using it. along with again, from cata, let us soulburn soulfire to instant cast it.

[@RyneNeilan]

Definitely agree with the cataclysm and rain of fire change tho. That would feel so much better

[@jamiro5307]

we need impending catastrophe as a class tree capstone to make us more valid in mythic+. right now we dont really bring anything to keys compared to mage or priests. if we get spaghetti ball to return we can atleast mass apply curse of weakness/tongues on melee/caster mobs and it gives people a reason to bring a warlock.

[@floodsye]

The Destro tree is so bad that when Blizzard revealed it, Kalamazi instantly got sick. Blizzard, if not for the sake of warlock players as a whole, please...make a more exciting and fun tree for Kalamazi. The man's dying over here !!

[@floodsye]

The stun on Avatar was only good because of Inferno spam. You could stun a pack every 0.5 secs...with new Inferno, that wouldn't be possible anyways. The build was not internally tested at all, honestly PTR players should get paid a salary at this point.

[@deepzz4056]

Why are they so opposed to letting things be fun and turning the knob so it’s not OP. They’ve have destroyed so many things that originally brought me to the class. I’m in it thick and thin but damn dude.

[@captaindaddiohead1650]

Blizzard hire this guy!

[@muratkaradag3703]

Hey Kalamazi: What about that? Class Tree Capstone Talents: SummonDooguard/CallDoomguard (choicenode Perma or Guardian Summon), Decimating Bolt, Grandwarlocks Design, Grimiore of Service ... just 4 options ... but yeah you are cool with "Demonic Healthstone" as capstone and swift artifice as top point spenders in the tree...

[@Kalamazii]

Do want to hit on class tree and hero talents a bit more!

[@uncleterb7128]

Our capstones suck !@#$

[@muratkaradag3703]

@@Kalamazii yeah sure. We locks want a class tree, that improves the gameplay, like improving demons, like getting maybe a new permanent pet, like improving abilities that we have baseline (e.g. corruption is baseline, still has cast time, and there is no talent, in improving in any way), Drainlife Fast channel is gone, we have so many modifiers but nothing feels impactful or good. Well compare our tree to others (im actually not a guy that compares one to another but in this case ... its just so obvious our tree sucks). May I can send you my suggestions?

[@ZomgZomg007]

i don't get why they are so against cata being a single talent/baseline or anything...honestly why are they against it? Is it ooverpowered?

[@jamiro5307]

they have no clue, just look at what they did to chaos incarnate putting it to 70%, straight dps loss. a dev should know this even if its alpha the numbers doesnt make any sense

[@bustrbsly82]

i respect you kalamazi, and love your videos, but being forced into aoe nodes in the first gate doesn't matter, and is even a good thing. having no other options in gate 1 for pure single target means you are free to take talents that can be applied in aoe situations (infrequent adds on a raid boss, farming, etc) without loosing single target damage. bm hunter would love this as they are currently forced to CHOOSE between st and aoe talents in teh first gate. The problem with forced pathing through aoe nodes for a st build only happens when you are forced to pick between st or aoe talents within a gate but you are required to pick aoe talents in order to progress further in the tree. the problem doesn't exist if you already have all the st talents in that gate and then have to choose aoe nodes to progress.

[@Eyevy9]

Blizzard will look at this and do the total opposite of what people want and what would help the spec.

[@dotftw1]

Watched it as promised on last night's stream xd.

[@Kalamazii]

ty!

[@tylerchapman8856]

Imagine designing warlock is your actual job and this is whay you come up with

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

"ermm, but akstually you don't get it, game design is hard"

[@tylerchapman8856]

@@DankMemes-xq2xm no.. it's not.. it would be fun and enjoyable

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

@@tylerchapman8856 "erhmm, no no, see, you need to use tools like jira and google docs, and write up design docs, very hard, ermm i highly doubt you could do it if you tried, emm"

[@positvechao]

Off topic but nice haircut. 😎

[@Kalamazii]

Thanks! 😃

[@wyraven]

Replace Chaos Incarnate for Decimating Bolt, so we have an actual good choice talent with Dimensional Rift. And then leave Avatar of Destruction alone. Make Summon Infernal 2min cooldown, every class has a 2min burst cooldown, if not less. Change the way we summon the Diabolist fiend, using Cataclysm for this isn't good, being forced to pick this dead talent isn't good, not to mention we will have to waste 2 points to get it, which will be bad for PvP and PvE.

[@VileVamp]

"We would rather you don't play warlock."

[@ZomgZomg007]

i dont think you can put reign of chaos and avatar as a choice talent. One is RNG, while the other guaranteed. The reign of chaos infernal would have be much more juiced up than avatar. To be honest, i think reign of chaos should just go and be replaced with avatar.

[@Fordicus]

I haven't touched the game since shadowlands, and I was thinking of coming back for war within. I'm a demo player but I also like destro, and these changes butchered everything I enjoy about both specs. Blizzard does a very good job at reminding me of why I quit

[@chrizeus2275]

why can't they just row back on avatar of destruction... i wish it so badly

[@Onflame]

Personally im not a fan of Charred remains, i think incinerate hitting hard is pretty cool :D the infernal idea sounds insane imo. Other thing i'd wish is they do is somehow make shadowburn more impactful, like make it do some AOE when u snipe a mob with it and / or refresh immolate duration . Really good video tho :D

[@floodsye]

Yeah, hitting rain of fire over and over in 8yd circle is super fun AoE gameplay...

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

Or just make Shadowburn hit for more than a wet noodle. Back in MoP it actually hit really hard and you'd tend to switch to it when in execute range.

[@op4gothic]

i always have played warlock as main for 14 years and i have never said they killed the class because i love the class but in s3 and s4 and seeing alpha make me sad how u can do this to this class its not fun anymore and when watching logs and see that my 2 min cds do nothing darkglare that did same dmg as my head enchant in 4 min fight , that is just bad desigen how u cant see this as dev and be ok im sure u should play the class and are u seeing this as fun for u as dev ? anyway i have always liked your videos kalamazi ty for your videos

[@anormalguytrading2052]

THE GOOOOOOOAT THE ABOMINATION!!!

[@HeidiBullard]

I promised, lol. Feel better soon.

[@Kalamazii]

haah ty ty!

[@Factual_Truth]

AT LEAST LISTEN TO THIS MAN

[@mooonpaw]

I'm also going to second what Dratnos said. Make Rain of Fire baseline. We shouldn't have to talent into aoe. It's silly.

[@abdullahyousef3481]

why cant we have a content creator like this for us Shamans , all our content creators are Braindead

[@thatepicwizardguy]

I'm just going to put this here: I'd like to see Hellfire return as an empowered spell. Always AoE, does monstrous damage for longer channels, and you could put in an incentive to potentially short cast it like adding duration to immolates (more duration for smaller empower, no duration for full send?) EDIT: Currently I have no confidence in where this is going on Blizzard's end, but we'll see how future changes look. As of right now I'm seriously looking at going back to Mage like everybody else and their mother.

[@soulcleave2386]

man just give destor perma infernal pet already. didnt we used to have that back in the day?

[@soulcleave2386]

also remove soulfire, and just move decimating bolt there

[@chewyy50]

I didn’t play WoD so can’t say for sure, but the old Fire and Brimstone does not look fun at all to me… seems very clunky and annoying more than anything. I might change my mind after playing it though. I like the contrast with Charred remains though. Could be some kind of passive rotation between the two talents activated by an ability or timer of some sort instead of two separate talents.

[@tylerchapman8856]

Ibcould spend 10 minutes and make destro actually fun.. first get rid of all the dog shit dmg increase talents. Second delete soul fire. Alresyd have chaos bolt dont need another one. Third dimensional rift gets moved up ans getsbralent points to make aoe and recharge on immolate ticks.. rof baseline cataclysm baseline. Avatar and all infernarl talents go to left side. Decimating can stay. Id also like tk see the imp get some love and mske it so it actually does good dmg and maybe provides some shard gen or maybe free rof casts.. that could be a path to the middle row or somthing. Anyways not perfect but a hell of alot better then whay it is and i jjst did this in 10 mins sitting kn my shitter.. you would think that if thisbwas your actual job it would be better

[@mooonpaw]

And give warlock 3% raid crit buff.

[@_Andael_]

to bad blizz never listen to your feedback :(

[@talisredstar1543]

I almost wish they had not released these changes and pushed them off till they finished them. Because all they have succeeded in doing is pissing us TF off! Showed their incompetence to the spec and its theme. Every other caster in this game can cast and move. Yes damage isn't as high, but we don't anything for that, other than Dimensional Rifts, and without the teir set bonuses, DR is pathetic. Shadowburn? is absolute garbo until execute range, and even then its till garbo because its shard cost does not equate to the same amount of damage that an incinerate or chaos bolt can put out instead. Since you don't get a shard return until a mob/boss is dead. 50 percent crit nice, and the following talent is ok. but the base damage is still crap, AND the debuff is insanely too short. 5 seconds? realistically that 2 spells, 3 maybe. But with mechanics 2 spells will be more likely outcome. The debuff needs to be increased to 10 or 20 seconds. I know that might sound insane, but this ain't classic. We don't stack crit anymore. Mastery is our Crit modifier, because out side of crit damage modifier, our mastery essentially replaces crit.

[@JakeRowland337]

I'm not a blizzard hater and I get that they have a really hard job. But it really feels like they're flailing with warlock talents. Our hero talents are awesome but every change they've made to the base talent trees since like mid aberrus have made things worse.

[@t4kut0]

The Devs in charge of warlock class design right now are honestly awful. Everything they do and everything they don't do confirms this.

[@taftvalue]

big dog haircut

[@schpamonkey]

I genuinely don't want avatar back lol add the damage/shard gen elsewhere summoning more demons is the theme of demonology not destruction the thematic destro was when we were in MoP and had burning embers the more you heated up the more flames wrapped around your character, channeling that power into chaos bolts that did GIGA damage If i wanted to summon a squad of homies i'd play demonology

[@fatihkilbil]

They will never bring back burning embers. They are weirdly obsessed with the idea of "stream lining / harmonizing" classes.

[@Kaydin66]

you must feel silly since those aren't even the destro talents for tww

[@EaglerockEnt]

The destro tree is complete trash compared to other trees that have been remade.

[@HugoPCarvalho]

Ok, my suggestions: I feel that Infernal/Darkglare/Tyrant should go to class tree or moved to the center of spec tree, every build use them so they should be easier to get. I probably alone here, but I'm happy that avatar is dead. Love it as a tier set, but is problematic as a talent, it kills infernal impact in our rotation and encourage Rain Fire spam, without Avatar Destro get some space for a rework in aoe rotation, opening more space for other skills like Fire and Brimstone, Channel Demonfire, maybe bring back Impending Catastrophe. Decimantion Bolt - I love this skill, maybe blizz could change it to make a big impact with Fire and Brimstone, like 3 big aoe incinerate or just go all in for the execution skill in single target and change Decimation bolt to buff the next 3 Caosbolt instead. They should buff Ritual of Ruin now, it should make Caosbolt instant again with only 1 point of investment.

[@phantasm5347]

Just bring back Shadowlands Season 4 Destro. Nerf it a bit so it's not OP as it was back then. Done.

[@akirameru675]

They dont know how to make clases fun anymore. The'yre basically all trash compared to MoP

[@handjuice]

This is a terrible take. They’ve done a few really good reworks in the last year or two. I will give you that warlock is in a weird spot.. but look at ret pally.

[@akirameru675]

@@handjuice everything cleaving doesn't make a spec fun.

[@halvorhf4280]

DIABO-LIST not DIA-BOLIST

[@Deykhan]

I feel like either or should work. Diabo-list in terms of Diablo sure, but Dia-bolist in terms of Diabolic.

[@TheSilverwing999]

It's absolutely diabolist in terms of diabolic

[@awheikkila]

Actually, it's die AB o list.

[@berryford]

Toe-may-toe Toe-mah-toe

[@tost3841]

warlock capstones are simply to few and all are totally boring...it should be the hightlight of each tree and not..."your primary fellguard craves your target for...xxx amount of damage.."...it should be an optical and gameplay wise highlight and generate lots of fun... "carves the target....." BORING, Big Fire Demon for Destro, Pit Lord or something like that for Demo, Metamorph into a demon... Something that's fun, visually appealing, and has a button you can't wait to press, unlike the rubbish that's available now.

[@uncleterb7128]

Right on brother 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼