The Weirdest MTG Cheaters Getting Caught!

[@mikotagayuna8494]

Former MtG superstar Mark Justice was once caught cheating in a weird way in GP Atlanta 1997. He submitted a draft list with four Muscle Slivers even though he was only able to draft three. He then went to a dealer to buy a fourth Muscle Sliver but was caught because the one he bought had a different print run. He told the judge that he was simply replacing a misprinted copy he drafted then threw away. The judge asked him to point to which specific trash can he threw the card into and would be allowed to play if it's really there. Needless to say, he got DQ'd and left MtG soon after.

[@Lanta0dofun]

The drafted cards were not stamped ? I thought it was always the case in pro drafts

[@ericjohnson6105]

@@Lanta0dofun if it wasn't the case before, now you why stamping became a thing.

[@mikotagayuna8494]

@@Lanta0dofun GPs were being held for barely 2 years at the time and the practice hasn't been adopted yet.

[@HTYM]

One might say that "Justice was served" on that particular day.

[@toothinc]

That is such a stupid cheat that I'm kinda inclined to believe him, because I struggle to imagine anyone with the faculties for magic doing such a stupid plan for one more card in your deck.

[@jasongracia5310]

Random personal story about why Olivier Ruel will always be my favorite pro player. I went to a Grand Prix near Orlando when Lorwyn came out and the format was sealed. I made a 5 color mostly jund elemental pile. The coolest thing the deck could do was exile mulldrifter with galepowder mage and hope that put me far enough ahead to win. I was lucky enough to play against Tiago chan (snapcaster mage) in one round. He was friendly and beat me quickly and moved on which is what we all do. Got paired against Olivier in the next round. I pull off my 2 card power play in game 1 and win. Game 2 he cast protective bubble on aethersnipe and I have no answer. Game 3 I got stuck on 2 lands for majority of the game and he beat me. After that he asked if I wanted to play another game just for fun since I got mana screwed that game. I was surprised but said yes and we played another game talking about our favorite cards. I don't remember who won that game and it doesn't matter. He didn't have to do that. He could have moved on after he won the round but chose to take the time and play an extra game with a random stranger just because we were having fun playing. It was an awesome memory and will always be the highlight of competitive magic for me. At the end of the day we are all people and he chose to spend part of his day connecting with a person which is kind of the main reason to play.

[@kobisjeruk]

I think a lot of people including pros think highly of Olivier Ruel. In the same vein, a lot of people think highly of Japanese players and often look to them as the meta/trend setters in the early 2000s. Cheating makes you a bad player/gamer but that doesnt mean that you're a bad person. I'm just an optimist, man.

[@bizzle4819]

@@kobisjeruk naive is more the word youre looking for

[@Racnive]

@@kobisjeruk Morality isn't black or white, good or bad. People can be kind to some and underhanded to others. It would be hard for me to trust anyone that had no qualms with cheating, though. Some people just don't see anything unethical about cheating (usually with the context of "it's not my fault cheating is so effective, I'm just trying to do the best I can, it's everyone for themselves"). And those people will cheat if they can get away with it. Best we can do is make sure they don't get away with it.

[@commandercorner5575]

I had a similar thing happen. I made a super janky deck back in Innistrad standard that, when it worked correctly, pumped out 5/5 flying demons like nobody's business. I got swept, but my opponent could see what my deck was supposed to do, so he asked to play the third match to see if my deck would go off. It did. It was great.

[@GamerFlair]

Yeah, I have met him and his a decent guy. Pretty much any of the pro's will tell you his stand up as well. But why? If his such a cheater? Well, look at what he actually got in trouble for. The bribe thing is something most of the pro's have experience with. Its basically always misunderstandings around splitting prizes. Its big money (or at least it was big money back then) and these guys were making a living doing this. The money was often needed to pay for the next stop of the tour, or living expenses often far away from thier home where they were able to test with thier teams. The Sunglasses thing is something that every, single pro knows they would have done too. If an opponent is being negligent enough to let you see thier hand... theres no way your not going to do it. They are competitiors. Competitors will always push the rules to the absolute limit, regardless of sport, game etc. He got banned for being an idiot and lying about it. And then we get to shuffle cheating. This is the one people find hard, because its an ugly truth. Every single pro can shuffle cheat and will do with frequancy. Its how they are able to be so fucking consistant. The majority of players are exceptionally lax when it comes to monitoring and countering for it. So the pro's... won't really hold it against him. Also... to slightly counter the good story. Wouldn't be suprised i've Oli stacked you into a two lander, which is why he played the game after. He felt bad and wanted to give you a real game three after ensuring he got the win he needed.

[@chester1882]

I think this “Cheaters Exposed” series is good because no game wants to talk about cheating in their game so this is a good way to educate folks about the past of cheating in Magic

[@georgegividen]

Don't watch any poker channels do ya 😉

[@hellvast1]

The funny part is, it's now the correct way to cast a spell,, to move it from your hand to the stack, then calculate its cost, then pay it. There mechanics that require you to do this to use them like convoke and improvise.

[@Playingwithproxies]

Yeah didn’t age well that dq. Sometimes with convoke I’d tapp the lands cast the spell and then tapp additional creatures.

[@mikotagayuna8494]

The old rule was that effects resolved in "batches" instead of a stack and tapping lands for mana was considered an interrupt-speed effect (an instant but faster). It was really convoluted back then.

[@Rowrin]

@@mikotagayuna8494 Oh god now that you mention it i remember that now. Way back in the day (I think 5th edition and older) lands even had the effect text "tap: add (symbol-ed) mana to your mana pool."

[@joelowdon1615]

Saito stepped down from his position as Hareruya CEO and President earlier this year after he was involved in illegal gambling activities. Unknown exactly what he was doing (appears to have just been poker) and the severity of it as Japan has weird gambling laws.

[@SaintAnix.]

The Dave Mills one is especially crazy considering that rules have been clarified in magic now. Now technically you cast a spell and THEN pay for it. There is no priority shift in this time so it's not like a player can react to the cast to force you to not be able to pay the mana, but otherwise cards like Hinata, Dawn-Crowned just would not work.

[@aidencorby8745]

Something to note thats not often talking about this DQ is that cheating in magic at this point was extremely rampant including at this event. The judge at this event choosing to punish him for this entirely superficial play order issue over the real cheating instances thst took place that day shows how unserious said judge was taking their job

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

@@aidencorby8745 because you know what other calls this same judge made that day? you're talking out of your ass.

[@Ridorim]

Before I write the rest of the comment, I feel the need to state that I also find the ruling terrible and nonsensical. If I had to defend the judge though, I would point out that a player could play a spell, not tap his lands yet, see if the opponent reacts or not and then tap different lands depending on the opponents reaction. Of course a smart opponent won't slam down a counterspell or say "resolves" until the appropriate mana is paid, but it's not unfeasible to think that someone might slip up if EVERYONE else does "payment -> cast" and only one person does "cast -> payment"

[@Suspinded]

The best way I've advised people talking about towing the "bribery/splitting" line : match results and prizes MUST be separate islands. One may discuss intentional Concessions/Draws, or splitting prizes. However the moment one topic is breached, the other should not be touched. Note : This isn't a guarantee, always consult your event's judge if you're concerned about crossing any lines when negotiating.

[@ShinkuDragon]

the one thing about the mana disqualifications is how thorough the rules are nowadays about how the first thing you ever do when casting a spell, is announcing that you're casting said spell. i'd love to see the rulebook back then about how casting spells worked.

[@damionwhitehead1165]

Back then mana burn was a thing, remember? The process for casting a spell was different. You had to have the mana in your mana pool already before attempting to cast a spell. Otherwise what it looks like you could be doing (obviously he wasn't), but it looks like you might be trying to cast the first spell for free, then tap the mana for a 2nd spell if you're opponent isn't paying attention.

[@keiharris332]

Yep. Any attempt at deception should be eliminated in high level play at a minimum

[@ShinkuDragon]

@@damionwhitehead1165 but that's the thing, if i know what spell my opponent is casting ahead of time i can pay more attention to how he taps for mana. mana burn being irrelevant wether you casted the spell for free or you paid for it before or afterwards. time proved it was a dumb rule since it got changed later.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

@@ShinkuDragon isn't this what made control viable at all back then? killing people with mana burn

[@ShinkuDragon]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 i honestly don't know if that's how mana worked when countering spells back then

[@BUROTHi]

I am fairly sure that Saitou doesn't own hareruya anymore. He got caught by Japanese police/officials for illegal gambling and as most forms of gambling are illegal in Japan its hard to say what he actually did, Hareruya released a statement regarding this on their english twitter in early june

[@SingerOfW]

Some people just don't know when to quit, huh.

[@joe.5103]

Waaat? Anyone know what kind of gambling?

[@joelowdon1615]

@@joe.5103 poker - Japan has some stringent gambling laws

[@EnerKaizer]

Gambling for money with games like Poker is straight up forbidden in Japan. For example, Pachinko (Japans most popular style of gambling machine) works via a loophole. Instead of winning money from the machines the players gain a currency which they can exchange for a variety of weird and mostly low value items (Like, for example, a teddy bear). However: Directly besides a pachinko parlor (Or very close by) is a pawnshop where they can exchange the prize they just aquired for money (and said prize returning to the prize selection, because the Pawnshop and the Pachinko Parlor is most often owned by the same company/people)

[@rrvrs4115]

How is Hareruya viewed outside of Japan? (currently living in Japan and it's the only place I can reliably buy and play MTG)

[@GeorgeAlone2277]

I've watched all your videos about cheaters but I'm still really bad at it, you need to make better tutorials smh

[@maxryan186]

Nice one

[@keiharris332]

Speed runners have a similar issue. The cheaters are usually highly skilled players who have been trying so hard but fall short of their goal, so they cheat because they feel they deserve the win

[@bluegum6438]

You also can't cheat without getting caught unless you know as much about the intricacies of a game as anyone else Speed runner cheaters usually get caught when someone figures out some extremely minor detail doesn't quite match up, and I'm sure a lot of clever MTG players have never been caught because you can't hyper analyse every second of their play

[@OffMyGlass]

'Bribery' is legal in Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and Commander.. I'll show myself out.

[@mclovin6829]

My Bribery Deck is made exclusively out of $50 bills

[@Evanfishfish]

Do I think that you should get DQ’d from an event for an intricacy like playing your spell then tapping your land? No. Do I think you should get DQ’d from an event for doing something consistently after being told by a judge multiple times to stop and even getting a warning? Probably

[@andrewrockwell1282]

Could Dave Mills have claimed he was just showing a card before playing it? It isn't cheating to have your opponent see a card, right?

[@Ryan-sd7jg]

The mana-tapping issue is interesting to me. They changed the rules because of this, but now we now have the abomination that is the Panglacial Wurm/Deranged Assistant rules interaction. To sum up a complicated interaction, Panglacial Wurm can be cast from your library *during* a search effect. In order to cast it, you have to pay its cost, and as part of paying the cost of a spell, you are allowed to produce mana with mana abilities (from lands, Llanowar Elves, etc.). Deranged Assistant (or Millikin) has a mana ability that adds a colorless mana, but also mills a card to do so. This means that anytime a player searches their deck, there is a possibility that they could play the Wurm and mill the top card of their library *during* that search. As such, the order of your library matters even during a search effect and should be maintained.

[@Dylan-vs6sf]

Thats nothing compared to the Selvala,Explorer Returned Panglacial Wurm interaction. So you can tap Selvala to add mana. Because of how you pay for spells, you can do this while Panglacial Wurm is on the stack while searching your library. So you reveal and draw the top card of your library. But wait. Selvala doesn't always add the same amount of mana. And attempting to cast Panglacial Wurm is legal as long as its possible for you to have enough mana. And so if you had 5 forests and cracking an evolving wilds to search, its possible you would have enough mana to cast Panglacial Wurm. But if your opponent reveals a land you don't have the mana to cast Panglacial Wurm. Normally this would just reverse everything. Except you can't reverse the Selvala activation since it drew a card. So a Judge has to make a ruling on if you used the search to gain advantage by knowing your Selvala draw, the Panglacial Wurm has to return to the exact position it was in the library before, and all other lands get untapped.

[@TehKorwinMikke]

@@Dylan-vs6sf It's more that the rules for "what is a manasource ability" are weird and unintuitive. Suddenly, we get those effects that normally could be responded to(like mill or reveal the top card), but now cannot. Their existence is, at least, telegraphed by being always on the board, but it's still weird.

[@kikook222]

The rule is bad. You should have to tap mana first then cast the spell. This rule probably increased cheating because now you can fast play and avoid paying correct mana costs.

[@vctrsigma]

That is pretty klunky. IMO mana abilities with side effects like that should have the Lion's Eye Diamond "Activate only as an instant." clause even if it makes them unusable for niche cases like panglacial wurm.

[@legoupil1819]

Idk why people do such sketchy shit. I am competitive. I am involved in my modern community. But if i can see my opponents hand for some reason, i call a judge to fix the problem.

[@Garygrine]

Was really cool to see you on commentary for the fab protour.

[@hydra66]

I think I'm just tuning in to listen to Vince's ability to tell stories

[@darrinschlangen4119]

I had a migraine during a tournament once, so I wore sunglasses. Then someone accused me of cheating and called a judge. I WAS NOT CHEATING! I was in agony! Anyway, I played the rest of the tournament in pain. Please Wotc, do not ban sunglasses.

[@mtgsalt1151]

I dont get how sunglasses are against the rules? If anything they help the opponent

[@voratheexplorer6442]

I love how that last guy's dq was so controversial it changed the pro tour rules

[@EverianKalim]

For that last one yeah, that was pretty dumb DQ. As long as hes not using that then Untapped mana to try and sneak extra spells out and used tapping it correctly then that should be fine.

[@felixmurley-anderson5620]

I didn’t realise this until way later, but one of my regular Magic haunts had a large contingent of Asian players (I’m in Australia, so not that unusual). During pre-releases some of the players would have their friends stand behind their opponents and talk about the cards in their hands in their native tongue. Not even at a tournament, at a goddamn pre-release 🤬

[@CrashKaiju]

For everytime someone gets caught cheating there's dozens of times they weren't caught. Any "good" player caught cheating should just be assumed to have been cheating their whole career.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

That's such a cope, while yes obviously they won't get caught every time, pretending anyone that cheats is always bad is stupid, when money is on the line even the best professional athletes in the world cheat, why would a pay to win card game be any different?

[@CrashKaiju]

@@calebbarnhouse496 i would work on your reading comprehension there bud.

[@CrashKaiju]

@@calebbarnhouse496 I recommend working on your reading comprehension.

[@CrashKaiju]

@@calebbarnhouse496 very non-literate take

[@Hawko1313]

@@calebbarnhouse496they can still be good players. They’re probably just good cheaters too. The main point isn’t their skill though, it’s that they shouldn’t be given second chances when they’re caught, because so many cheaters who are shown leniency end up being repeat offenders.

[@bobfranklin2572]

Tomoharu is huge in Japan, he has his own chain of game/card stores and has his own, very successful KZbin channel "Tomohappy". A great watch if you can understand a little Japanese. Cool guy overall

[@joebaumgart1146]

I have a 380 card deck that's specifically designed to screw with cheaters as much as possible. If that doesn't work I just beat them up in the bathroom.

[@callumbyrne4263]

As somebody who's never kept up with competitive Magic I greatly enjoy your videos going over its long historys highlights

[@simonteesdale9752]

Honestly, the last one is just unfortunate, and was handled about as well as it could have been. He was doing something that was against the (admittedly daft) rules, and had been warned multiple times to stop. During a PT isn't the time to change the rules. Fortunately, WotC figured out that the rule was stupid and changed it, so this wouldn't happen in the future. Honestly, it reminds me somewhat of the 'Borbyrgmos' incident in that way.

[@peterpeterson4800]

Yeah, the Bobarygmos thing was just grimy, because everybody knew what he was talking about. Good that they changed that rule.

[@ruludos1977]

the borby incident was a player intentionally abusing the sportsmanship of the game, much different situation

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Honestly I don't think it matters that he was warned, playing for a major tournament with money on line inevitable means your under a lot of stress, and that means small stupid mistakes happen, I constantly flip between paying for a spell before I show it and paying for it after I show it, because it just doesn't matter 99 percent of the time and even if it does matter when it comes down to it, like then the opponent that put the counter on it is the one who misplayed, he should have waited for him to go through with his intentions, before he casts a counterspell,

[@simonteesdale9752]

​@@calebbarnhouse496 The warnings matter because of the way things escalate. A warning isn't just a judge says "do better next time", but an official mark against that player that they're doing something wrong, and are often used to identify patterns of cheating. You collect enough warnings, it upgrades to a game loss, then eventually to a DQ. The reason for this is because people often try to hide cheats behind sloppy behaviour. (Plus it also gives incentive to sharpen up your play if you're actually making mistakes). Note that I'm not defending the rule he got DQ'd for (it was a dumb rule, and rightfully got removed), just defending the judging team for sticking to the rules until WotC changed them. (I'm also happy that he got his winnings back, and was awarded 2nd). You really don't want the judging team to be making up decisions on the fly.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

@@simonteesdale9752 the problem is that it doesn't matter what the offical tour tournament rules for what is right or wrong, it's entirely on if it is right or wrong, if I go to the bathroom and come back to the table and I approach from behind him and I accidentally see his hand, that's wrong even if it is considered legal, legalility is never and can never equal what is the right call every time, you look at the spirit of the law, not the letter unless your a power tripping ego maniac or just dislike the guy, if he had a good reason to issue the DQ he would have used that, but he didn't so he used an excuse for it, the fact is the job of a judge is not to read a rulebook and copy it letter per letter, the job of a judge is to make sure the spirit of the game comes through, if a judge could issue minor penalties for minor problems fine, but if they are having a problem in a high stress environment it is not your job to throw away the tournament, nothing about it was righr

[@fromadhdtodndtomtg]

That shuffle cheat video is amazing... made me very insightful and cognizant for my shuffling (realized that I might have shuffling the deck where I couldn't see the bottom card, but half the table might be).

[@keiharris332]

Yeah same here. The way I would shuffle is I don't look at my deck, I cut the deck in half and push both halves back together several times and then cut the deck and finally take the middle half of my cards amd and put it to the top of the deck. Some people thought I was cheating. Didn't understand it till we caught some players doing slight of hand to cheat cards to the top of the deck.

[@OGNoNameNobody]

I sad hi to my Mom for you, PK. She yelled at me sceaming "Where's that drink he owes me?"

[@MarkAvo]

That’s dumbest one I’ve heard of, but glad it worked out in the end… I love these “lore” videos about the games past.

[@dcdougherty8725]

As someone for whom sunglasses are necessary to see in some environments, I really hope that I won't have to show up with a doctor's note and/or constantly be forced to defend my wearing them in certain venues (an issue I have in some non-mtg scenarios). At the same time, I try to take particular effort not to align them with my hand, making it more difficult for my opponents to sneak a peek (in theory). That said, it seems to be common courtesy to alert one's opponent if such reflections are visible, even if failing to do so isn't an actual infraction.

[@randommaster06]

As a MTG judge, the Dave Mills DQ is is very dumb and I'm glad the tournament rules got changed soon after. The Comprehensive Rules, Tournament Rules and Infraction Procedure Guide were pretty different in 1997. There was a lot of crazy nonsense that has been changed or removed over the years. Three examples: (CR): The phasing rules. (TR): Naming cards for effects. (IPG): Missed triggers.

[@alphonse2234]

Seeing his opponents hand in sunglasses is on his opponent.

[@Intangible360]

Correct, but lying to a judge is on him though...

[@ODIRGO]

If I were bribed for not going to an event. I would accept the money (cash), and then STILL go to the event. My opponent couldn't complain because everyone would know he cheated and get him disqualified, or even if he calls on me, he cannot prove it, and still be disqualified for admiting bribering.

[@forrestfranck7503]

Recently discovered your channel and I’ve been loving the videos I’ve watched so far! 🤩👍

[@PleasantKenobi]

Yesssss! Thank you! And welcome!

[@sanddagger36]

fellow player at my shop told a story about an opponent trying to get him banned. Final turn of his match, he was about to swing for lethal and his opponent called a judge and pointed out that the corner of one of the cards in his hand was damaged and was therefor marked. He confirmed with the judge that he could just put sleeves on the cards for the next round or remove the card from his deck, but it had no bearing on the current match and the judge agreed.

[@michaschulz5182]

Wait isnt the rule anounce your spell than pay it? Because if you have a chromatic sphere you can let it count for affinity and afterwords pay the spell wich was discounted with it. 601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. So now its more correct to put it on stack and pay the mana afterwords. Or did he pay after the resolution what would still be wrong (if you are a rulesshark)

[@koenvandiepen7651]

The best thing about that last story is this. The rules change that lets you tap you mana afther playing the spell. Turned karakclan ironworks into a living rules nightmare later on.

[@gilliganallmighty3]

The deck reorganizing thing: he thought he was playing tournament chess.

[@ZakanaHachihaCBC]

Thé 8:40 one is one of my favorite DQ stories. He wasn’t cheating, it’s not against the rules to see your opponents hand in the reflection of their glasses. But lying to a Judge is a cut and dry DQ.

[@TehFoamy]

At this point I'm convinced that Vince just mispronounces these people's names on purpose

[@hicknopunk]

Are they going to ban all glasses? Mine are special to reduce my double and triple vision, but they also work like 3d movie glasses and the way I see light is very different than most people.

[@AccessAccess]

Not sure if this video is correct, last I checked Bribery was legal in Modern, just not legal in standard.

[@de245733]

Real talk these cheat video are nice, the war hammer ones I have no idea what the game is about, but I still watched it, thanks Vince for the entertaining contents

[@astramancer]

Based on the thumbnail I was hoping for some sort of card markings only visible through polarized sunglasses shenanigans.

[@KensanOni]

With the sponsor, I can become a Sylvan Lord, and that is worth the price of admission.

[@jacob510]

First off bribery is legal in modern, vintage, Legacy, and Commander. Other than that awful joke, wouldn't spliting a prize pool by both you and your opponents agreeing to a draw for the last match? Cause that's not uncommon in events

[@pezzz044]

Agreeing to arrange a redistribution of prizes and intentional draws aren't bribery. A player adding something to the prize pool to gain a concession from their opponent is when it becomes a problem.

[@jacob510]

@pezzz044 ok this comment is 2 years old so I'm just going off vibes here. But I'm pretty sure I was referring to the card bribery as a joke. Not the actual act of bribery

[@pezzz044]

@@jacob510 apologies if i misinterpreted. I got the joke in the first sentence, i thought the question in the second paragraph after the 'other than that awful joke' was querying if that would constitute an act of bribery.

[@richardward2783]

I watch these series by multiple KZbinrs and will continue to. I've recently gotten into MTG. Haven't played in locals in awhile as I want to build a fun deck first, but I've been to 1 local so far. I used to play yugioh religiously until recently. Anyway these videos are educational. Let's me know what to look for. For instance, shuffle cheaters.

[@donnovanash2334]

It is to my understanding that there are two ways of casting spells, floating mana and using already floated mana then declaring a cast, and declaring a cast then paying the mana to cast it by tapping or other effects, so when playing a spell to declare the cast (only playing it and not casting it yet) then tapping sources to pay for it it is well within the rules, and this distinction was important for certain cases of being able to pay the mana for a spell but needing other requirements to cast it

[@nemomoriarty4303]

They changed the rule

[@donnovanash2334]

Hence my confusion, thanks for the notification @@nemomoriarty4303

[@tcoren1]

With the sunglasses in the thumbnail I thought maybe someone marked their cards with like, UV ink, and then he could always see the top card of his library with UV glasses

[@JohnSmith-he5ip]

Don't cheat. Follow all steps and phases as if a judge is over your shoulder. Have respect for the cards, that means your cards and your opponents cards. No drinks on the table. This is my rule 0.

[@munchkinmatt1670]

Two Explores.

[@fel_95]

Who the fuck brings reflective sunglasses to a card game in a building lol Anyway, kinda sad how so many pro players (or close to) blatantly cheated their way in many events. Probably only a part of them got actually caught!

[@pezzz044]

I know the guy; he was going outside into the sun between rounds for fresh air and wearing them hanging off his shirt when inside. His first ptq, he learnt a lesson, but we still poke fun at him for it.

[@fel_95]

@@pezzz044 Oh I see, makes sense -- that's something I would forget to do as well. The way the video put it, it seems he brought it for playing magic ahah

[@Dohyden2]

Cheaters love playing spells before tapping lands, they'll place the card down as if they were casting it, if they get a reaction from their opponent e.g. a counter spell or response that's bad for them, they can then pick up the card again and say "I didn't cast that, I never paid for the spell, I was just revealing/putting the card down and working out in my head how I wanted to play my turn" Honestly, cheaters in magic are fucking exhausting, they make the rest of us good people have to play like robots and watch their moves like a hawk

[@RedOphiuchus]

Were you not allowed to reveal cards from your hand at the time? Because, at least now, I'm pretty sure you can reveal your hand if you wish to without any rules violation. If it was possible then as well then I feel like he could have argued that he wasn't casting a spell and then paying the mana for it but rather revealing the spell, then tapping the mana, then casting it.

[@Playingwithproxies]

Yeah that one doesn’t really constitute cheating in modern rules.

[@RedOphiuchus]

@@Playingwithproxies well now you can already begin casting without enough mana in your mana pool and then activate mana abilities to pay for it. Probably because of this event. My thing is: unless he specifically said, "I cast X" just showing a card from his hand before tapping the mana could hypothetically just constitute revealing the card instead of casting it. Thus not being a rule violation. Like I could, at any time, just lay my entire hand on the table and show my opponent every single card for no rule violation. So hypothetically how could you tell the difference between him trying to cast his spell too early and just showing a card from his hand just because?

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

I got one. when I started playing in like 97 in elementary school we just read the cards and did what they said with no idea of the broader rules. then one day a kid came by with a book of rules, THE rules and claimed he read it cover to cover and proceded to tell us what we were doing right and wrong and he was our rules arbiter for me entire time playing. of course he never read it, I learned like 20 years later when I tried out arena and discovered that stack exists. to his credit, he lost a lot of games and I don't think he was actually malicious or trying to cheat everyone. I think that was his way in to make friends as kid but he didn't actually want to read the very long book of rules.

[@EverianKalim]

10:16 Fucking gasp made me jump

[@jasonbarry3301]

Declaring that a spell is being cast precedes tapping lands or paying the mana cost *in the god damn rules* . Floating mana before announcing a spell is an alternative order that just happens to be legal.

[@sammurphy3343]

The dude asking for his opponent to cut his deck to get him in trouble for deck manipulation is insane lol. I wish I could have been there to see how uncomfortable it was.

[@rileymcphee9429]

The first time I ever played MTG publicly was at a Throne of Eldraine pre-release; I had only played a few games on Arena prior and watched some introductory videos on KZbin. My first opponent was very nice and helped teach me, which was great, but there was like a four guys who took it upon themselves to watch my every move and insinuate I was cheating because I looked down at my deck when I first shuffled.. like that's literally it. The whole event's vibe felt very hostile and cut throat and I didn't go to another public event for another year because of it. I'm glad cheaters are getting caught and WotC is no longer tolerating it, but the obsession amongst players with catching cheaters, especially at non-competitive events, really needs to stop.

[@arc-sd8sk]

mega-brain move: wear big sunglasses to purposefully reflect your hand, then get your opponent DQ'd for cheating when they inevitably look

[@KingBobXVI]

So how *_DO_* you approach a prize split without making it sound like you're trying to initiate a bribe? Because I know those are things you can do, and they don't always have to be completely even. I know someone who got to the final round of an event and offered to split the prize such that the opponent would get all the cash prize but he would get the card prizes instead (including the relatively new store-name stamped wurmcoil promo).

[@pezzz044]

If you're unsure that the prize split you're going to offer is within the rules, simply verify with a judge away from the table before making the offer if what you are planning to offer is within the rules. Highlight that you don't want to be offering a bribe, but you want to know how to word your offer to make sure you aren't.

[@kikook222]

I disagree on the judge DQ'ing a guy for not tapping mana first as being a bad call. It's a good call. The rules state it and they are there to enforce it. It's also one of those things that if left unchecked would lead to people not paying correct mana cost to use spells by fast playing.

[@raiserofchickens]

I once got knocked out of a semi-competative multi-player game (3 person pod single elimination Standard free for all) at an lgs in the first round when one of my opponents said to my other opponent 'if we knock this guy out (that guy being myself) we can take first and second and split the prizes.' I called them out for it after the game as cheating. I was really more miffed about being so blatantly ganged up on and losing to scummy greedy politics than being outplayed by better opponents.

[@I_Am_Kas]

A guy I knew would stand behind people his friend played against while wearing large sunglasses.

[@Lovabledingo]

Not a cheater but Travis Woo would make an...Interesting video.

[@k0olmini11]

Did we talk about adding extra cards to your hand off Ajani Mentor of Hero’s? I heard there’s a clip about that somewhere. It’s pretty funny

[@kierenpearson4656]

Grats on 100k mate

[@collinbeal]

The Mills ruling was just horrible. Technically, tapping mana before casting a spell is floating your mana, which you very well can do, but it is not the only way to pay for a spell. There are spells that require you to do other things as part of the cost of casting them, such as sacrificing a creature. With this logic, shouldn't you sacrifice your creature before ever casting the spell? You can cast a spell even if you have insufficient mana. It just doesn't resolve and the action is reversed. The only way it would be a problem is if the spell had already gone onto the stack without paying the mana for it, but you can obviously pay mana in response to initiating the casting of a spell. Sounds like a bad judge to me that was on a power trip.

[@simonteesdale9752]

IMO it wasn't so much a judge on a power trip, but a judge enforcing a stupid rule that escalated. Mills was technically cheating by the rules of the time, and had been warned repeatedly.

[@georgem7502]

Flashbacks to being at school in the 90s with the Ya Mum joke...

[@eugenedebeer5255]

Yuuya Watanabe was in the running for Hall of Fame when he was disqualified from Mythic Championship 2.. in what became a much debated Sleeving Scandal.. also cost him the title..

[@kristianfagerstrom7011]

While it is obvious that a player should have no knowledge of unrevealed cards, the sunglasses rulings are weird to me. If I show up to a CCG tournament wearing a frikking mirror on my chest, will I win through having all my opponents getting DQ'd?

[@Robotoken-299]

Played against this infamous player a few years ago at a scg, Jeff Hoogland. Just completely insufferable to play against the entire round and was a sore loser after taking the round in 3 games.

[@BummerSlug]

That’s crazy, I got disqualified from a GP because my opponent slow played and I called the judge twice…. Judge says I was fishing for ruling 🤨 And now I don’t play competitive anymore. Glad I did now, looking at judges now I somehow feel it is even worse. Oh well, non-sanctioned events maintain my addiction lol

[@hansoskar1911]

After Ruel was suspended he was asked " Do all french palyers cheat?" and he answered: "Levy doenst"

[@AshBlossomWorshiper]

We need more of this content

[@4time2waste]

Why is it NOT good that you have to tap your mana before you cast a sell? What if your choice of mana to tap is different if the spell gets countered or not, then playing the spell before tapping could be cheating because you now have more information. Just trying to understand why they changed that rule as it seems quiet logical to that rule and obide to it.

[@DeadlyGrim]

The situation you described can't happen by the rules. When you cast a spell, you take the card, put it on the stack, choose modes/splices/kickers/alternate costs/etc, announce any targets, determine casting cost, activate mana abilities, and pay the total cost. This is done in order and no player has priority until all of that is done (at which point, the player who cast the spell has priority -- usually). Check Rule 601 for more info. So, the spell can't get countered until it's cast and "casting a spell" includes paying it's costs.

[@patrickhill9783]

Congrats on 100k man you crank some of the best mtg content out there you deserve it

[@michaedove3562]

My favorite was Mike Long squatting on his chair so he could be higher up and see his opponents cards if they leaned them forward even a little. Technically not a cheat I guess...He did it all the time too.

[@ZeroSonata]

Mentioning how Olivier Ruel is still in the Hall of Fame just makes me so angry thinking about all the other scumbags like Owen Turtenwald that are still in the Hall of Fame. If they were willing to eject Yuuya Watanabe due to cheating, why the hell are these two still in the Hall of Fame??

[@NicoBleackley]

Feel like that judge for Dave Mills should be banned from any events. What a petty loser.

[@1munchyoshi204]

Every time Saitou cheated it feels like a Looney Tunes skit... unlike most other cheaters I feel like those incidents were the only times he did it lol because he's so bad at it

[@askmeagain43]

I imagine it was an awkward car journey home because that's a completely fucked reason for DQing someone.

[@thelegendarysolocard]

During a sanctioned lgs event involving precon decks I was banned for using the deck I was given which was the ajani half of ajani vs nicol bolas because it contained the card crusade.

[@ruludos1977]

yeah i'm sure the disposable bot account is telling the truth about culture war bullshit

[@pezzz044]

Banned from the store that gave you the deck? You just accepted that at didn't try to appeal it? Sounds dubious.

[@tcsmagicbox]

People do stupid things when there's money on the line.

[@mikesapanero8572]

Hmmm, if I don't buff my kind by at LEAST +1/+1 I don't think I'll be a Lord.

[@mrtierney2]

i got dqed for having cfb sleeves that were sticking together and i had one too many cards in hand and didn't realize it until after drawing a card. None of the judges even looked at the cards. Wizards ruled that they couldn't prove i did anything wrong but went with the decision anyway. it was utter bullshit

[@posisteve]

I played in the Columbus GP 2010! I also played merfolk, but I didn't cheat or splash black in merfolk so I lost

[@peterpeterson4800]

I don't know what the policy at the time or now is, but I was at a draft FNM a few years back, and the top two players just decided to draw in the final round, so they are both guranteed first and second place for price boosters. Depending on the outcome of the other matches, the loser could have gone to place 3 instead. And they openly discussed doing this, it's not like they went to time or anything, and people around me were like this is common practice, there is nothing you can do about it. But I think this is totally shady and should not be allowed, since it robs other players of a chance to get to the 2nd spot for the price boosters.

[@rizalplayingtheflute3825]

i believe, unless i'm misreading the rules, this counts as cheating due to bribery because of the prize incentive but idk how other lgs' do fnm but in mine no one really cares if you do smth like this

[@sethstephens4777]

@@rizalplayingtheflute3825 ID ing ( intentional drawing ) is very accepted and normal thing . if you watch old pt coverage they will even talk about in booth. "math says so and so only needs x points so they can draw in the next y rounds if they win here" or so and so got paired doen so they cant draw in even though they are x-0 are both very common statements to here at higher events . some TOs even put the ID check box on the match slip. it is Definity not considered bribery or collusion

[@rizalplayingtheflute3825]

@@sethstephens4777 i agree. i think the bribery and collusion part of the rules just confuses me. cuz there is a prize incentive in the game mentioned above.

[@aktyelements8034]

I've seen this (was also asked by my opponent for this myself at war prerelease as we were 1st and 2nd) - if you discuss the prize when you agree to this ("we'll intentionally draw to maintain our places to get the prize") then it's against the rules (according to the local judge). But if you don't mention the prizes ("we id to maintain 1st and 2nd") then even if tacitly you're doing it for the prizes. Cos you didn't say it out loud it's not a problem. I could be wrong though, that's just what a couple of local judges said. (I didn't take the draw at war cos I had a track record of beating this guy in pr finals, then I got destroyed 0-2 and dropped to 3rd. He gloated a lot about how we should have split but no regrets)

[@peterpeterson4800]

@@sethstephens4777 Wow, that is disgusting. Imagine people doing this at other competitions like big sports or e-sports events. So stupid for people to not care about actually playing and winning the game. What's the point of them to even be there, if they don't want to play and win???? It even robs other players of a fair chance to get to the top. Fucking stay home or spend your money on something else. I think anyone who ever does this should be disqualified from the tournament and get a ban for a year at least. It's like bribing the opponent. It derives the tournament of the spirit of the game, the spirit of any game, to play to win and have fun. To have a fair competition, both in the individual game and in the tournament as a whole. How is it fun to just agree to draw? Why have a swiss system in the first place, when the guys who win the first few rounds can then just lie back and intentionally draw, while the losers of the first few rounds have no way of catching up even if they win all the rest? How is that fair to the other players who lost maybe just because they got mana screwed or flooded or had a bad match up in the first few rounds? Bit of bad luck or a few mistakes in the first few rounds and you are basically out, they might as well do double elimination instead, if there is no chance to get to the top spots if you lose the first 2 rounds, because those wankers are just blocking the top spots by intentionally drawing and taking up tournament spots while not even playing the game.

[@fuzzygoblinwizard]

I didn't get dq'ed, but I did get a game loss at my LGS because I had a copy of scathe zombies in my deck but 6th edition had rotated out of standard...

[@whitestreamz]

Oh geez i keep playing then tapping mana. Probably Seen it that way originally and cant shake the bad habit.

[@smiler0charon]

it's not a bad habit. it's fine (since the rules changed)

[@Ryan-sd7jg]

That is permitted. Once upon a time, it was problematic, so Wizards changed the rules to allow this.

[@colinvancampenhout]

Hello Kenobi, I wonder if you could do a video about cheating in Warhammer? Maybe not in the competitive scene, but just in general maybe?

[@tornad8063]

I know basically nothing about wh, but ypu made me curious if there are like crooked measuring tapes, that mark 1 inch at 1.1inch or something like that

[@starmanda88]

@@tornad8063 I know people use weighted dice and shit like that. It wouldn’t shock me to hear of a rigged measuring tape.

[@tornad8063]

@@starmanda88 do thwy actually buy special over average dice, o just buy over 1000 of them and water test their balance?

[@Racnive]

So long as there's anything to gain from winning or match fixing, people will cheat. So long as people cheat, people will get caught, and it's usually entertaining.

[@autobotjazz1972]

I get it losing sucks, and more so when money is on the line at an event. But if you you have lost take it like a man and move on. Trying to pull shenanigan to weasel out of a loss is just not acceptable to me. It should be illegal to intentionally draw or concede save in the case of some sort of medical or other emergency.

[@erikedelkamp473]

Imma about to cast my spells and THEN tap my mana.

[@Playingwithproxies]

Imagine if saitous opponent just called the judge like I’m not cutting that.

[@sethstephens4777]

lol thats what ith ought when i was watching. if my opponent just picked up theri deck and started rearranging i would immediately have my hand in the air

[@brandoncarter3042]

Dumbest DQ in MtG history? Yes. Deserved? Also yes. You know how to play the game properly for your time. You have MULTIPLE warnings from MULTIPLE judges. They’re fed up with telling you at that point. Especially for something so minor. I am glad he got his prize second place prize money in the end.

[@extremepsykosis]

I think that if you cheat once, you are banned for 5 years. If you cheat twice, or lie to a judge....permanent ban.

[@incredibleflameboy]

Because so many of these top players cheat it makes me wonder if my deck building and playing is better than I think.

[@Tenno222]

To be honest I feel bad for cheaters . How pathetic of a person they must be to cheat in a card game . cheaters never win .