Famous MTG Cheaters

[@PleasantKenobi]

Don't forget, the first 1,000 people to use the link or my code pleasantkenobi get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/kenobi05221

[@johnfitzgerald1640]

.... I really wish tolarian community college and the prof would have told me you have a youtube channel.... this was a solid video

[@ajspencer3839]

00

[@ajspencer3839]

​@@johnfitzgerald1640😮

[@koalabro6118]

My scout buddies and I used to play MTG and we had a casual tournament called "shady scouts" where cheating was legal (so long as your opponent couldn't call exactly what you did) and it was amazing how fun cheating can be when everyone is on board, but cheating in normal games is gross!

[@axiswolfstar]

This is how I play monopoly, I tell you up front that cheating is allowed. If you get caught you pay a fine.

[@Biology-nerd_have-fun.]

@@axiswolfstar tax evasion and stealing is fun in monopoly.

[@thekittenfreakify]

You guys should play Iluminati. That game in the rilebook encourages cheating.

[@josephdurham4950]

Great idea

[@Namdrahsirhc]

Probably made ypu guys good at spotting cheats at least 😂

[@ChiralWolf]

The chair thing I'm pretty sure has been speculated to be so he could see his opponents hand by just sitting higher up

[@ddwkc]

I can confirm as I'm pretty tall and tower some of the short opponents by a lot and if they don't angle their hand in a way, I can sometimes see the top part of their hands. This is usually enough information. I usually tell that to my opponents who are usually inexperienced. Experienced players usually know this and angle their hand adequately.

[@vooligan9499]

​@@ddwkc The number of times you said "usually" kind of makes it feel like it isn't what you usually do 😅

[@davidelrod7865]

Very likely, but dude was also very weird and wanted to unnerve opponents (so they were less likely to be paying attention to other stuff he'd do).

[@notapplicable6985]

@@vooligan9499 nah, he just usually uses usually

[@skylar5257]

The chair thing was because he was caught with a card in his lap and to prove he was up to no shady business he sat like that for the rest of the tourney.

[@FortPlz]

I went to high school with Alex Bertoncini. I let him borrow $5 for lunch one time and the next day he paid me back in Monopoly money. When I told him that he gave me game board money and not real cash he looked at me blankly and just said, "two explores."

[@anmuttSA]

The 90s was truly a wild west for cheating in Magic, and it has one of my favourite examples of low-key nonsense I've ever heard. It comes from an anecdote from Chris Pikula* when he played a GP around the turn of the millennium. He was in a round late in the day when his opponent played a Serrated Arrows - the opponent then called a judge, and said that he didn't have any way to represent how many counters there were on the card (no dice, beads, etc.). The judge then pulled a few coins out of his pocket (dimes, quarters, whatever) and let the other player use them. At the end of the game the opponent put the coins in his pocket and then boasted to Pikula that he'd made like $10 that weekend with this trick, scoring coins from random judges and opponents every time he cast the card. Amazing stuff. * it's been almost a decade since I heard this story, so I'm likely misremembering some details

[@starmanda88]

Incredible

[@LordJudgement1818]

That's pretty slick. Wonder what he bought with the change he pilferied

[@matiasc003]

Hahahahaha this is f*** great!!!

[@zigzag2370]

I was present at this exact tournament. I actually played Chris and made him sign my shadow mage infiltrator and then later that day I made John finkle sign my meddling mages (for those wondering Chris and John were rivals at the time and I made them sign the others world champ card) they thought it was genius and we all laughed I was about 12 years old at the time

[@Melvinvanharn]

There was an article on Mindripper by I believe Seth Burn called Matrix Cheating where this is mentioned. I thought the cheater in question was Jason Gordon, but I'm not absolutely sure. Apparently Jason Gordon was playing on CAMERA, had ten cards in hand, and made it through a Duress without anyone saying anything.

[@VagrantKing]

Bertoncini was my second opponent at my first ever PTQ. To this day I’m certain he cheated his mana count off lotus cobra in game three to resolve both Avenger of Zendikar and Time Warp on the same turn so he wouldn’t lose to my token army in the air on my turn. I was certain of it then, and that was still a long time before he got busted for cheating.

[@antoniomendes7171]

At least got busted . I live far from this paper tournments and just have arena sadly even arena is letting me down

[@KillinTime2792]

shoulda called a judge no really, call the judge. there's no shame in it you're at an event.

[@starmanda88]

Always call the judge! Screw that! I’m sorry you were cheated.

[@VagrantKing]

Thanks! I had anxiety about it and didn’t want to cause an issue so I went with it, but in later years playing looking back on it I absolutely should have called the judge and made him walk through the turn. Oh well, my tournament days are long behind me anyway lol.

[@chunnil4898]

@@VagrantKing I'm sure you know but "I had anxiety about it and didn’t want to cause an issue so I went with it" is one of the things liars/cheats count on. I'm curious: when the guy was called out as a cheat, how was your feeling of vindication? Were you happy, frustrated it took so long, etc?

[@cpeterso]

If Yuuya was playing Tron, does that suggest he was playing with... marked Karns?

[@jproductions7469]

I don't get it can someone explain this.

[@flaccidreflex5563]

@@jproductions7469 play on words. Marked cards= Marked Kharns cause tron uses Kharn

[@cleo4548]

God damn I love this community

[@SoberStPete]

Ayyyyyyy

[@popdi.s.i.c.sccnnt7221]

i see what you did theyre 😊

[@swahilimaster]

Had a guy in Texas around 2011-2012 who would mark your cards with his fingernails then call a judge on you, he pulled it one too many times at different tournaments and got the same judge twice who remembered him and he ended up with a ban once they figured out he had done it over a dozen times in different cities.

[@dylanfarley8136]

I hope his ban was for a very long time. Cheating is bad enough, but damaging peoples cards is another level of scummy.

[@swahilimaster]

No clue how long the ban was, haven't been to any big tournaments since about 2013. Seems like the big tournaments around Austin and San Antonio always drew in at least a few cheaters and weirdos though, I once saw a guy get arrested in San Antonio for leaning in and telling his opponent he was carrying a knife, as if it was gonna intimidate him or something. Opponent reported him after the round and police showed up, it's illegal to carry a knife over 2 inches there.

[@starmanda88]

What an absolute knob. Accuse me of cheating *and* damage my cards? I’m probably throwing hands.

[@joshdamighty]

Cheat framing liars are the worst kind of cheaters because they can ruin your image and gain something off it as well.

[@clarkX100]

I have one dude at our locals that tries shady crap like this. If I'm winning on Titan he'll just randomly ask if I paid for pact from 2-3 turns ago or sometimes from last game and turn it into a he said she said. Same dude once he lost tried to claim a friends Wrenn and Six was fake. It got bad enough that our judge/store manager actually sat down and watched me play my entire set last weekend and while I got nothing to hide and won it still pisses me off

[@PatJamma]

Roby Escalante hiding Hero's Downfall when he gets Thoughtseized during GP Miami has got to be one of the biggest cheats I've witnessed

[@WildKutku]

I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm Roby's friend and I was off camera during that. The truth is Roby hadnt touched a standard deck in years before entering that tournament, he isnt a cheater he was just very out of his element and really couldnt have given less of a care about that GP he was just pressured into entering by his friends and wanted to have a good time, that deck he played on camera? It wasnt even his he was borrowing it.

[@WildKutku]

Actually technically the back of my heads on camera in that video, you can see me behind Roby playing my awful G/R aggro deck.

[@jutton11]

@@WildKutku What, he accidentally hid one of his cards? Thats your excuse for this guy?

[@chunnil4898]

@@WildKutku "Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie." Comically obvious.

[@WildKutku]

@@chunnil4898 You cannot fathom how little of a fuck I give if you believe me or not.

[@cw6542]

We had a guy on camera fetch, then pick a card he needed to out the game (it was a dismember) then while shuffling keeps the card on top and instead of presenting it to his op to cut he just said "are we good" (it was the end of OP's turn). and then went to untap upkeep draw the card he had kept on top. He was DQ'd while on stream and perma banned the next day.

[@Vardaris]

Bertocini stands out among all the rest of the cheaters because most of them today have stated some kind of apology and definitely declared that what they have done was wrong. Betrocini still states that if you manage to cheat and your opponent does not catch it on the fly then good for you and way to go. He genuinly believes cheating is an aspect that should be part of the game.

[@starmanda88]

The boy ain’t right

[@chickenwyngs3646]

Is that a JoJo reference?

[@alexfrantz8389]

You should hear the story of Lee Umberger and the shop that was permanently banned from running sanctioned events. It could be a whole video itself. You ever want details, let me know. I saw the whole thing myself.

[@starmanda88]

Oooo this sounds super interesting! I hope Vince sees this!

[@theelectricant98]

I would love to learn about this!

[@alexfrantz8389]

It really is an interesting tale, especially considering it happened when I was really new to Magic at the time. Lots of shady business practices and a lot of pairing rigging and favoritism. There’s a lot to it, and honestly, might even be enough for an episode of DTR between the buildup, the banning, the aftermath, and where people involved are today.

[@lucasparham5068]

I googled it and don’t see any details of what actually happened. Someone should definitely make a video! Or at least a Reddit post.

[@yeturs69420]

I'm a year later, and idk if that video exists yet but it sounds super interesting

[@GuiltyKit]

As a former childhood cheater at literally everything, and having my eyes opened over time to how absolutely abysmal it is to cheat at something ostensibly there for FUN, it really riles me up to see this kind of thing. As I got older and become less of an a-hole, I realized that a lot of people even KNOW when someone's cheating or otherwise breaking the rules, but cheaters rely on the general lack of a desire for confrontation to get by with so much of their BS. It sucks when someone's cheating. But it's also awkward as hell to call someone out on it. Are they doing it on purpose? Are they going to be chill and admit they made a mistake? Are they going to fly off the handle? You could possibly win even with them cheating. But now the whole thing is ruined and tainted, and the hobby by association suffers too.

[@gh0rochi363]

I'm glad you grew out of it awesome man

[@SingerOfW]

Mike Long is simply fascinating to me, mostly because I wasn't playing Magic at the time myself, so all I know about him mostly comes from Mark Rosewater's anecdotes - who admits to having basically created the whole heel image for him. He might've actually been a legit good player worthy of the hall of fame, but his infamy just makes the whole thing really messy to say for sure. My favorite story (which I've heard years ago, so feel free to correct me) has to do with Chris Pikula looking for the original art print of Meddling Mage, the card he designed after winning Magic Invitational. Chris didn't really care about it at the time, but then realized how great it is, becoming a literal part of the game he loves so much, and began his search - but the artist has already sold his print by then. Then, some time later, Chris gets a call from the person who does have the print - and, you guessed it, it was Mike Long. This is where my memory fails me, but I think Mike and Chris were even in the finals of that Invitational (and if nothing else, Mike did win it a year prior to create Rootwater Thief), which really puts a bow on the whole situation.

[@hansoskar1911]

Mike Long was a charismatic psychopath in many many ways. cheating was just one area. this is unrelated to some people believing that heels are legitimate parts of the story. and MaRo reporting on the early PT for The Duelist. That whoe idea obviously stinks for people who approach mtg not as a story but as a competitive intellectual pursuit.

[@blaze3422160]

The whole “we created the heel image” thing has never sat right with me. This is magic, not wrestling. Having a guy who’s one of your top players supposedly being told to be scummy or douchey isn’t going to bring people into a card game. The whole point of a heel is to see them get their comeuppance. There’s no real way or payoff in magic for that happen. To me it always felt like Rosewater just wanted to do some damage control for an OG legend who was good at the game.

[@Pintyhet]

Oh my god you’re so tan. Like a handsome piece of toast.

[@alexleblanc6364]

Handsome piece of toast with a beard

[@Useraccount85]

He's English so I believe he's actually a handsome piece of crumpet.

[@JStack]

COVID has somehow tanned him. I have no idea how else he could be getting so tan while being indoors lol

[@phantompop3192]

Ayo? Kinda gay 😳

[@Pintyhet]

@@phantompop3192 Something wrong with being kinda gay?

[@uniwolfacorn]

2:16 absolutely this. We caught someone in our regular playgroup stacking his deck whenever he searched it. Now I ask to cut his deck every time he shuffles, and he doesn’t get it.

[@flan310]

Yuuyas case made me really sad. He was a pretty beloved player and him cheating was something that, in my mind, could never have happened. At this time, this broke my heart a little bit

[@posisteve]

not admitting the obvious intentionally made marks is super telling. tron usually cheats by putting lands on top when you shuffle or search. straight up card marking is another ballgame and sad. I notice at big events when I shuffle the enamel off sleeves that I watched my opponents intentionally stack, they get mad and also can't win cuz they were cheating to get wins. paying attention does raise win %.

[@RunningOnAutopilot]

Why are card markers so bland I remember watching yu-gi-oh and this mad lad had card markings that were only visible with his glasses

[@EbonAvatar]

I'm not at all proud of this, but when I was in grade school I used to cheat at Magic all the time. I would quickly peek at the bottom card of my library when my opponent was distracted on their turn and pop it into my hand. Sometimes I would even quickly cut the deck to a random spot to try and find the card I needed and grab that one into my hand. Often this resulted in me having way more than 7 cards in my hand too but I wouldn't discard. Despite doing this all the time, I never once got caught. What this taught me is that, sadly, it is shockingly easy to cheat in Magic. Your opponent is so often in their own world that you can get away with absolutely brazen acts of cheating without them noticing anything at all. The lesson here is that people need to get better at watching their opponents. It is amazing what you can get away with if you really want to when your opponent goes into the tank for a quick think. Now let me be clear: these were casual lunchroom games so I never once cheated anyone out of any money. Still it was very scummy on my part and I'm definitely embarrassed by it.

[@starmanda88]

If that’s the worst thing you did as a teenager, I think you’re doing just fine 😉 what’s important is that you grew and matured and wouldn’t do it now! Edited to add - grade school! Your impulse control wasn’t even fully developed at that point!

[@PatJamma]

I knew a guy who did exactly this. I noticed it every time. I never called him out on it because I didn't want to start shit in the friend group. Odds are, someone noticed you.

[@EbonAvatar]

@@PatJamma yeah you are probably right that my record wasn't as perfect as I thought. But still my point stands. It's unfortunately easier to cheat in Magic than it should be. We all need to be vigilant

[@_jordaank_4970]

This is the good guy ending lol

[@nickbrandon3929]

Me 2 😯🥸

[@ctomsky]

I could be wrong about this, but I believe I've heard that the reason he sits like that is to try and sneak a peek at his opponent's hand.

[@Dovorans]

The Mike Long bluff reminds me of LSV's story of top 8ing a local vintage tournament despite forgetting to include Tendrils in his sideboard.

[@Miklathesamurai]

Doesn't really seem fair comparing these dudes with lsv joking at a local

[@PaulGaither]

I lived in northern California and played Vintage at Berkeley (the store is/was called "Eudaimonia") where this happened. I once beat LSV for a Mox Ruby and another time our friend and future pro tour player Ricky Sidhir won an Ancestral Recall. LSV is such a great person and would go to our LSG in Davis California as well. We had FNM games with 8+ pros and/or people who would later make the pro tour and I found myself just watching and taking pictures to report events at TheManaDrain, and so forth. We are talking 2007-2011 era. Good times. I learned so much from him.

[@benjaminsouthworth5698]

22:00 LSV told a similar story in one of his vintage cube videos about how he played the entirety of some event playing burning wish storm and forgot to add the tendrils to his board, but ppl would just scoop anyway to the wish.

[@goatsfluff]

That Bertoncini really explored his boundaries. And the boundaries of the rules. Yuuya truly left his mark on the world... or at least his cards. And I dunno about that Mike Long... it just doesn't sit well with me. Have a good day, mate.

[@CasualKing21]

That was great lol, have a cookie 🍪

[@Leuber]

I especially like your spin on the Bertoncini cheat.

[@daringtraveler]

Anyone ever wonder why all these pro's consistently lose on Arena and MTGO but when it's PT time all of a sudden, it's the same top people at the top every single time? I mean, I can't prove anything, but that is a little sus. - and to top it off, none of these people were winning anything when the PT was on Arena.

[@Mtgvixen]

My old LGS owner defended Alex to the bitter end. I wish I still had our conversation, but basically it amounted to "He needs another chance." No, no he doesn't. He is pathological.

[@michaelgleason4791]

The Watanabe thing broke my heart. I loved watching him play.

[@Finkeldinken]

Came here to say exactly that. He was one of my very favourite players too.

[@nickmitchoff7072]

It was a set up. That was that last round before top 8 and he was guaranteed to make it in, even with a loss. He was also deck checked 3 times before the final one that he got “caught” in. He wasn’t deck checked right after he lost to his opponent before top 8 as well, which would have been a perfect time to dispose of any evidence. The judge took his sleeves for 20 minutes before calling him back and DQing him. Also, Yuuya always plays with the right side of his deck facing towards himself, and the marks are on the left side which would be facing his opponent. He wasn’t even kicked off the MPL and out of the HoF until he challenged it which is also very interesting. This is all explained in a statement made by whatever team he was on when this happened.

[@nickmitchoff7072]

@@josephgold208 Great job addressing the points brought up. Why were the marks on the side of his deck facing his opponent? Why was he deck checked three times in 5 rounds and only was caught AFTER his final round (which he lost) before he entered top 8. Not only that but this wasn’t at a mythic championship, this happened a week before a mythic championship, which Yuya was still going to be allowed to play in after he got caught “cheating” and he wasn’t kicked from the MPL and HoF until he challenged the DQ. Why would they only do that after he challenged the DQ?

[@GeorgeAlone2277]

As someone who still loves magic but isn't particularly finding actually playing the game very entertaining, I'm loving these styles of video, please keep it up

[@DoubleBeast]

What is it that makes you not enjoy playing the game yourself? I'm curious as someone who both enjoys Magic but is also critical of it.

[@GeorgeAlone2277]

@@DoubleBeast I dont enjoy playing online, maybe the occasional cube, and my LGS shut down. I still play like once a week maybe. Also I've realised just how expensive owning magic cards is, and also during lockdown i started watching other faster based games and magic feels so slow to me now

[@DoubleBeast]

@@GeorgeAlone2277 I relate to you as a former Yu-Gi-Oh! player. Honestly not sure how Magic even sells so many Standard sets when the cards are crap in more ways than one. Legacy & cEDH are the only 2 formats that feel properly fast, efficient and powerful enough for me. I just have a Legacy D&T deck + cards for a high level Commander deck without the RL cards. Fuck the Reserved List, just let it go already, Wizards. 🖕🏻 As for digital play, I only find the Forge MTG simulator on Android satisfactory, though it's only fit for single-player testing without a friend with you.

[@kyleellis1825]

One of the last things my grandma got me before she died was some card sleeves. Sadly 2 of the sleeves are lightly damaged. I still want to keep using them with the Red/Black Lorwyn Goblin deck she also bought me the constructed deck for. But I only use it casually and it has 2 basic mountains in those sleeves. I show the damage and ask if it's okay, if not, I use a different deck.

[@PleasantKenobi]

That's actually really sweet. Thank you for sharing.

[@kyleellis1825]

@@PleasantKenobi If red/black goblins was actually competitive, odds are most of the sleeves would be falling apart. But since they really aren't that great power wise, they have endured. Because it's Lorwyn Goblins, only a couple people have ever had an issue with the sleeve damage and let me use them. Very glad it wasn't fairies or something actually decent.

[@morenfin]

Can you put them in oversleeves? I use that for any art sleeves since those always fall apart so fast. I won't use the plastic inner sleeves when I do that. A triple sleeve is too bulky.

[@anonymous1burger]

"Where'd you get that extra copy?" "It just bloomed from my cadaver."

[@SirZapdos]

I remember seeing an article or a tweet from someone about Bertoncini circa 2013. I believe it was Paul Rietzl. He happened to look at Bertoncini's game and saw him cast a Supreme Verdict while only spending 1 white mana. Bertoncini had an additional white mana available among his 2 untapped lands so it was an easy fix. However, Bertoncini also had Last Breath in his hand, a card that costs 1W and can exile Mutavault, one of the best and most-played cards in that Standard format that also happens to be immune to Supreme Verdict.

[@pbailed8007]

I used to play in a group that there was a bunch of cheaters and as soon as I figured out how to build decks, it didn’t matter if they cheated… I just don’t understand how you can cheat at a game and still lose so often!

[@DivusMagus]

"What turn is it?" "Two Explores." might as well have been. "Cheater says what?" "What...Shit"

[@xyryyn]

My biggest cheating "experience" was at my first large tournament, before DCI sanctioning was a widespread thing, I was up against one of the event judges who politely informed me he was stacking his deck as he separated his lands out, shuffled both piles, then interspersed the land pile into the other. I lost and never played tournaments that org put on again.

[@starmanda88]

WTAF?!

[@xyryyn]

@@starmanda88 1995 was a strange, strange time, and I was a scared 16 year old at their first big event.

[@starmanda88]

@@xyryyn totally fair. I see your name is Julia. I am also a woman in mtg and I would’ve probably done nothing myself especially at 16 years old. I wouldn’t want to rock the boat or seem like a complainer.

[@TheDarkElder]

Bluffing is part of the game play, that's why we so often keep a land in hand rather than playing it. Yet having extra cards around that are not part of the deck but "spontaneously" get into the player's hand is just a cheat, at any card game.

[@littlehill12]

Bertoncini was in our friend circle when we are all learning magic. the person i share a collection with had the bastard sign one of our brainstorm playsets after his first suspension... i was not happy........

[@beatsandskiesmtg]

Yeah, should have got him to sign the Explore playset. I’d be angry too, wasted opportunity.

[@robertcusick9931]

I have an altered and signed Veteran Explorer by him. I think it's great.

[@startnow1994]

The yuuya thing really sucked. This man literally was the end boss to any major tournament he was in.

[@gamblerfls]

I played back in the 90s and I was present in the GP Rio in 1998, I made to top 64. Cheaters were caught since then in tournaments. But most of the Magic playerbase was very young back then, and they didn't want to denounce cheaters to judges. Most players were too nice, or too naive, just like the first guy in this video. But cheaters must suffer the consequences no matter what.

[@scifoncra6376]

Yuuya's situation is still massively weird. Because it took them 3 inspections to find them. A guy not known for cheating, specially someone so proeminent in the japanese - and worldwide - MtG scene. still think there's a lot more that happened in the Yuuya situation that we just don't know. But calling him one of the biggest cheaters is just stupid. Although Márcio has changed his ways, he was far worse for example. Then you also have the 2 dudes in SCG, one of them at one point being the Rookie of the Year.

[@ViolentVioletViolin]

LSV even said before that he forgot to put a tendrils of agony in his deck in a tournament, and everyone he played against just assumed he had one. lol

[@BB-pn2qv]

This video needed to be made. Thank you. We need better standards and better bans.

[@quincybriley4113]

I'm impressed. You've been playing this game for 15+ years, but you're only 21. 6 years old is young to have a good grasp of magic.

[@theblaqknight]

I've seen lots of these cheat explaining videos (I've seen the explore one a couple times before) but I like your take on it. I'd watch more.

[@empurress77]

I've caught players cheating 3 times. Once i was playing two other people and cast a "All players tutor 2 cards. I waited for everyone to get their cards. Then i played the lock enchantment i tutored for and a control all creatures card, Suddenly, my opponents "Remembered" they "Forgot" to get their second card. It was two to one so i let them tutor yet another card and low and behold they got the card they had no idea they needed the first time. I was OK you "Win" and walked out. Another time i caught a player tutoring for two extra cards while tutoring. One tutor three cards. Smh. The only time i caught a player cheating in a tournament they had pushed all of their land cards less deep in their sleeves. Meaning all of their cards that weren't lands were deep in their sleeves. You could easily see where all of their lands were when looking at the top of the deck when placed on table in a stack. I informed the judge, and they only got a warning. I of course always tamp players cards, so all lands and cards are all the same depth in their sleeves. Never saw that player at another tournament in that same place again.

[@GamingManual]

The "Mike Long" name-fate Matrix glitch is absolutely wild, lmao.

[@ogeid772]

Weirdly enough, the Mike Long that got banned from Pokémon also had a card hidden away on his person, he played Professor Sycamore, a card that allows to discard his whole hand to draw 7, but he kept a Greninja that should've been discarded on his lap, to evolve later

[@TheEmeraldboy100]

Apparently, Bertocini was also banned from Transformers TCG, which was also owned by Hasbro

[@starmanda88]

Holy shit really? It must be a compulsion of some sort for him. Truly bizarre behavior.

[@CHULAKable]

Thank you for the Mike Long story. I was at that SCG event and have since re-heard the 2 explores story again and again till the end of time. Ancient pro tour stuff is fascinating to me

[@PleasantKenobi]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@jasonbarry3301]

If he’s cheating at sitting down he shouldn’t be expected to have done anything else within the socially accepted rules either.

[@lostmarble540]

I have this morbid fascination with cheaters getting caught, I'm gonna get so many magic and speedrunning cheating videos in my recommendations from watching this video

[@nickwoods8304]

Hey Vince, I'm from the upstate NY area around where Boetcher and Bertonchini are from. If i recall correctly, the last thing that got alex perma banned was him casting an ancient stirrings and putting a hardened scales in his hand. Hope this helps!

[@sandwichboy1268]

Such a minor cheat, but they add up

[@SyaoLin213]

It's worth mentioning that Pros-Bloom was a deck championed by several of Magic's biggest cheaters at the time and one of the pros from this era said that he never understood how the deck was anywhere near as consistent as it was (being a 3-card combo that also required a critical mass of resources in what was already a pretty fast format at the time)

[@DarkAkuma]

My brother made the deck (after its era of prominence), and I agree. It's consistency with goldfishing never felt right. It was nice when it went off, but getting there was insane. I think your implication is that maybe it was as prominent at the time due to cheaters making it more consistent. Maybe... But I just feel its was a product of its time. The meta game allowed for it. Decks lacked the tools to more consistently disrupt it. Players lacked the experience at understanding and dealing with such a combo deck. While it snowballs in one turn, and had (I think...) a perfect draw turn 3 win possability, i think what was more likely to happen was for it to go off several turns later after spending most of its life to just barely survive long enough and go off.

[@Technomagus]

While not exactly a "cheat", per say, Mike Long was also famous for getting Magic's Priority system changed, and the big reason why the Main Phase was split into two(+) phases starting with Sixth Edition. Pre-6th Edition, there was only one Main Phase, and combat was a game action you took during it. However, declaring that you were entering combat was effectively a sorcery-speed game action. So, the "Mike Long Maneuver" or "Jedi Mind Trick" would be for him to ask for priority at the beginning of his opponent's Main Phase, then immediately pass priority back without taking a game action, forcing them to skip their *ENTIRE* Main Phase, including Combat, and go directly to their discard phase. They fixed this first by separating the Combat Phase from the Main Phase entirely, splitting the Main Phase into two, and then again by changing the rule about Priority to that you can't ask your opponent for Priority if you intend to take no game actions. Essentially, they have to pass priority unprompted in order to advance the step or phase.

[@julianalvarez4231]

Damn that’s scummy. Dude’s really marked magic history.

[@KennethKnickerbocker]

I can’t remember what the card/boardstate, but at my first ever tournament this guy I played against went infinite like turn 2 or turn 3 (it was a cast combo and return artifact from the graveyard to hand, rinse and repeat sort of thing. I remember having a counterspell in my hand and the mana to cast it, but the guy, being more experienced than I was insisted there was no interaction I could cast to disrupt the combo from happening and that I simply lost. Later I asked the manager at the LGS and he said yea, that guy is known for doing stuff like that (bullying/intimidating). This was back in the 90s and me as like an 11 or 12 year old kid 3 years or so into the game was like “well wtf then”. I played a few drafts and entered a couple more tournaments at different places, but the experience really soured the whole competitive tournament play for me and I stuck with playing with friends there on out.

[@sweepinbelle]

Cheating at a tournament is bad enough, but cheating to beat an 11 year old kid?? That's something else, sorry that happened to you friend

[@SketchingHands]

I always felt Wizards was too lenient. Konami auto bans you for 3 years on the first offense. 2nd it’s usually for 999years

[@MarkAvo]

From what I recall from that time Long was considered so good he wouldn’t have needed to cheat and that’s why so many of us hated the guy and his “accomplishments”. We felt he tainted the game and encouraged cheaters to cheat. Folks like Mark Rosewater argued that having a Heel was good for the game. I’m glad cheating is so harshly punished and think the game is better for eliminating the acceptance of cheaters.

[@hiimemily]

If his legacy were only as a deck builder, he would be an all-timer. He just couldn't help but cheat though, and that rightfully destroyed his reputation.

[@davidelrod7865]

Another cheat that allegedly Mike Long would pull off: Cast Impulse, look at 4 cards, put one in hand very quickly, take a very long time to decide what order the others are going to the bottom of the deck in, to the point where the opponent forgets what is going on, then announce "oh shoot, Impulse says 4 not 3, I'm dumb" pick up another card, and put a second card in hand.

[@galactuskev]

Yuuya Watanabe was a heart break for me. Watanabe on Uw control vs Shaun McLaren on Ur control, that match was the one of the big reason I got into competitive magic. Watanabe struggling under blood moon. McLaren at 2 life and a grim lavamancer. Watanabe top decks threads of disloyalty. Takes the lavamancer then uses his land, that was turned to a mountain, to activate the lavamancer for the win.

[@pintpullinggeek]

Many years ago at a London Pre-release one of the players showed us his card mechanic skills by repeatedly bringing an Arcbound Ravager to the top of his deck. He then insisted that I shuffle his cards thoroughly before we played a game when I would normally just cut my opponents deck.

[@cecilevans9247]

I have to ask: Did any of these people have to pay back any of the money they won? Were any prosecuted or sued?

[@Finkeldinken]

Dude, Yuuya broke my little frail heart back then. I hoped to the last that it was a misunderstanding. I stay hurt tbh.

[@fel_95]

Hey Vince, what's your thought about the shitstorm with LSV not qualifying on the WC due to an "admin oversight" that granted extra wins to the players who ties with him, and allowed challengers with lower rating to pass through?

[@starmanda88]

That seems incredibly unfair. How can they allow that to stand?

[@fel_95]

​@@starmanda88 After a modo bug, the players had to restart/reconnect to a game, but they forgot to tell a player they'd use the ORIGINAL block instead of the new one displayed on modo. Due to not having informed that, and a player would've won due to the 'old clock', they decided to give BOTH a WIN. Which kicked out some players from the race. It was intentional incompetence that punished everyone else who played fair.

[@TheLegacyDan]

Cheaters are definitely annoying. We had a local player that would draw two cards during the draw phase if he thought you weren't watching

[@mth4456]

So I came from Pokemon and played when Michael Long was cheating at every event. It has to be a glitch in the matrix because they also did the same cheat as the Magic Michael Long

[@kobisjeruk]

What truly bonkers about Mike Long is how Mark Rosewater voted/nominated for him to be in the Hall of Fame AFTER the whole kerfuffle.

[@gd6210]

I love this. Would watch more Kenobi Magic History.

[@Ottuln]

22:00 One of my favorite stories of bluffing in Magic is when mana-burn was still a thing in original Mirrodin and Pulse of the Forge came out. You would float mana to burn yourself intentionally to lower your life so you could play two or three pulses and win the game. It was trivial to bluff this with no Pulse in hand and get the opponent to match you so that they ended up in range of a different burn spell. Hilarious.

[@frasert8779]

The Yuuya one really broke my heart tbh. That guy is maybe the most talented player I had ever seen. It defied everything that he seemed to be when he got caught, but aside from some absurd and far fetched conspiracy, the evidence was beyond doubt. Tragically stupid

[@ninasten7312]

I think the phrase with giving people the benefit of the doubt is very true. I've often seen things at GP's where I myself wasn't sure when spectating, giving the benefit, only to later find out a better known player had potentially cheated. Weirdest one was when a rather well known player tried to get a prowess trigger out of an activated ability. My friend, unfortunately, was too shocked to call a judge, but I am convinced his opponent had just tried to "knowledge check" him

[@MrSyltphademus]

There's a very classic finals video with I believe Mike Long where both players are just blatantly cheating (drawing multiple cards, adding cards from graveyard to hand, etc) and none of the judges realize what's happening. I believe both players were aware of the other doing it, but calling attention to the game state would have revealed their own cheats, so the game quite literally devolved into 'who cheated more/better'.

[@MrSyltphademus]

From a personal standpoint, I remember an SCG where my opponent had all of his Elvish Archdruids flipped in his deck (so the tops where pointing to the bottom and vice versa) and was caught by a judge, but during the deck check it was found out I had forgotten to un-sideboard (not that it would have helped because it was all of my anti-control cards from the previous round lol) and so we both received game losses. I ended up losing the round, but I was pretty steamed that it was the only punishment he got for fairly obvious cheating.

[@landbeforetimeee]

Cheating in card games is infinitely more interesting than other types of cheating in sports or video games, just because it involves developing an entire unique skillset to pull off effectively.

[@valkopuhelin2581]

This was great. A researched subject discussed from a modern perspective.

[@jayceehampton8031]

That reminds me, Yuuya can return to professional magic as of October 2021. That will be something interesting to keep my eyes peeled for if he ever emerges at the competitive table.

[@jeremyobriant7266]

I agree that if someone cheats at a competitive MTG event (or any competitive game, really), they should be banned permanently from competing competitively. If they're bold enough to cheat on camera, in front of fans and judges and their opponent, they're not going to stop because they got caught once. Or twice. Or X times (Cheat X times then put a creature card from your graveyard into your hand). Bertoncheaty is clearly the example here. I think, like with Watanabe, you have to assume he's been cheating the whole time, and strip him of wins and ban. I don't think it should cast a doubt on other competitive players without any justification. It could have happened but without evidence, you have to assume that most people aren't cheating. Cheating takes away from not only the game as a whole but from the opponent who is playing fairly, especially in a competitive environment where money, etc. is on the line.

[@metleon]

The siding out the wincon story reminded me of a story I heard from a Yu-Gi-Oh player. They were playing casual games with a deck whose only goal was to draw all their cards and then lose due to deck out. Their opponents kept forgetting because they thought they were eventually going to draw Exodia and win.

[@ZpMonsterGarage]

Mr Bert and cheaty was banned after getting caught at a SoCal shop grabbing a green card with ancient stirrings. (He carpooled that day with the judge. I’m sure it was an awkward ride home.)

[@cruces1713]

Not to mention his many times cheating with his signature merfolk legacy deck where the lands were foiled but the nonlands werent marking them. Maybe it was the other way around but an obvious cheat to anyone owning foils

[@ZpMonsterGarage]

@@cruces1713 I think he would also throw a card on the ground while shuffling his opponent’s deck. Usually into a position that someone could see it and call a judge over. Effectively getting his opponent a game lost for presenting 59 cards.

[@luisdayvid]

I found that funny that Miachael (Xiao Xiao) long in Pokemon came up. Also I was there in Memphis when Michael long got banned for sitting on a Greninja break. He ran out of recursion and had to "windfall" his hand. So instead of throwing out his last Greninja break, he hid it under his arse.

[@tomoyosfan687]

It's amazing to me that, not only are there two separate cheaters in card games named Mike Long, but that both of them actually had the same cheating strategy.

[@Muscimologram]

One of the four kids who played magic with me used to watch his top deck whenever he wanted to, that single handedly made us stop playing the game. It was so annoying for us I can't imagine how the opponents feel after being scammed in a tournament

[@PleasantKenobi]

They just used to... look at it?

[@Muscimologram]

@@PleasantKenobi yeah, that a**hole invented his own version on scry and chose to use it whenever he pleased

[@MisterBlue_]

I have a Jadelight Ranger that was signed by Alex. He had signed my friend's Jadelight at a prerelease, I think. My friend can't stand the guy so he gave it to me and I managed to get most of the ink from the cheap ball point pen off. Now it's just a Jadelight Ranger with the bottom scratched up a bit.

[@darkwolf9637]

The commentators just not caring about the deck list not being consistent with whats being played is super interesting as a yugioh player since for yugioh any inconsistently in the deck list no matter how small is an instant disqualification

[@PleasantKenobi]

It would be a disqualification if caught by a judge, and was consistent. The reason commentators wouldn't call to stop the game is that, especially at an SCG event, it could just be an error in what they were given in the booth. A Deck Registration Error is either a warning, or a game loss. I've had a game loss for it at an event because I miss wrote my list. It was my error. I deserved the loss.

[@geneclark3600]

I feel bad for telling this story....but 25 years ago at a tournament, some dude tried to play a fake fork....looked good, but the paper stock wasnt right....so I called him on it in front of everyone, he left in shame, and left his deck in the store, I told everyone there..." this is mine now" no one objected. Got 2 legit dual lands from that.

[@PleasantKenobi]

What the fuck.

[@tonythepokemonguy751]

Mike Long using the slight of “sitting weird” to distract his opponents

[@oneinfinity]

Squatting on the chair like Mike Long used to do could be considered a cheating attempt all by itself. It gives him a higher vantage point and might give him a better chance to peek into his opponent's hand if they're not careful.

[@aristhought]

Fascinating video Vince. A lot of the game depends on integrity, because anyone who has ever learned a simple card trick knows that it is staggeringly easy to cheat with sleight of hand if nothing else. It really takes away from the heart of the game when big names especially cheat because it calls into question everything else. It’s pretty saddening. It may not be that hard to cheat at Magic but why would you at a game you love and care about? (I guess for money or fame or whatever) This game (especially competitively) depends on a good amount of integrity across the board.

[@Nionyx]

I’m thinking of going to my first ever event at Birmingham for CommandFest this year and I was wondering if there’s any particular tricks or anything to watch out for/to expect at one of these events?

[@thevorthos]

is it just me, or is the audio missing a ton of treble? I tried to equalize it in browser I cant get the high end to come through

[@JesseRogers-vw6kr]

Cheating isn't for bastards, cheating CREATES bastards... Literally speaking.

[@axeltalt9452]

My drama llama can't get enough of these videos please make more! :D

[@dahuntre]

Is there a skillshare class for cheating in cardboard wizard-spell-slinging games without getting caught?

[@iLLiDaN30]

This video just shows you don't play paper at all. Half the playerbase is literally cheating and the judges don't do shit against it and if the people get caught, they get banned for a joke of a time by WOTC. That's why Arena which is also kinda shitty is better playable as papermagic.

[@PleasantKenobi]

That's bullshit, and an excuse bad players make to excuse being bad.

[@iLLiDaN30]

@@PleasantKenobi Well, i played protour in europe for alot of years, but had to quit. Literally had half the playerbase inside germany cheating and nothing happened to them. When i was twice in the US for tourneys, also had people cheating, but befriended judges didn't disqualify them. So i'm completely done with paper magic now.

[@AG-it4im]

Kinda mean basahing a guy for their seating position. He might have been a fan of death note

[@DarkAngel-jo8ix]

I’ve heard the weird chair posture is something he took up after getting caught in that event where he had a card in his lap as a kinda way to prove he wasn’t cheating in that specific way but then he kept cheating in other ways

[@khestia6951]

Not a cheat but when I'm going to booster drafts or cubes which are my favorite formats or kinds of magic. One thing that absolutely tilts me is when people are so competitive that they purposely say that you miss beginning of upkeep triggers on your turn when you haven't even untapped your fucking lands yet, or when you have activated abilities that you are going to use on your opponents end step and they pass and say you missed your ability and I'm like um haha no sir I once again haven't touched my lands yet sir but nice try. I've had to have my local shops judge/worker get involved multiple times because a couple of people insisted on being fucking dickheads.

[@hmvollbanane1259]

Video starts at 3:45

[@edwardsperring9214]

Does me failing to find after having my Aven Mindcensor hit with a Path to Exile (as I only looked 4 deep because I'm bad) make me a cheat, or just bad... It's bad isn't it...

[@oxdans]

Marcio Carvalho got caught and was suspended and still does shady things even on camera...

[@marceljones7940]

and now he's nearly made it to worlds...thank god he missed it

[@aunderiskerensky2304]

you are totally right about the binary divide in 40k. true tourney players are no fun at all. honest mistakes happen, games hella complicated. if im the more experienced player i try to help my opponent understand my army and what i can if they do certain things, and i hope for the same when im the less experienced player from my opponent. i probably wouldn't do well in a tournament, not that i can't play well but because i'm too used to chillhammer.

[@PleasantKenobi]

But tournaments are hardly like this. People are usually very forthcoming about what their army is and can do. Having strong opinions of competitive play, but never engaging in it - we see this a lot in the hobby. It's quite frustrating.

[@aunderiskerensky2304]

@@PleasantKenobi well im going to be giving it a shot this february with a small local and move up from there if i like it so at least i'm giving it a whirl.

[@sweepinbelle]

​@@aunderiskerensky2304how did your foray into tournament play end up?

[@aunderiskerensky2304]

@@sweepinbelle considering I play only White Scars, abysmal, but i had some fun anyways.

[@dj_thunderkwark1536]

What is the music at 14:12

[@matthewcline4001]

Didn't Mike long also have the under-the-leg ravenous baloth? Memory is fuzzy from almost 30 years ago lol

[@cujoposh1581]

I acedently cheated yesterday by taping a manadork the on my opponents turn even though i just summoned it casing him to go feom 31 to 29 in health so i felt a litle bad

[@joshrobinson2409]

Bluffing doest work on me I dont stop playing the game until the last card is played the game isnt over until the last card is played or if you have an infinite combo