System Agnostic Races? Species?

[@grossdeutscherpodcast]

Your true most popular series is the Großdeutsche Podcast. Subscribe now! (may have to speak German to apply) (Burger pin this, we need the promo) - M.

[@Seetor]

Gay

[@tedarcher9120]

Imagine a universe where everyone thinks elves live 1000s of years but really it's a cultural thing and it's just their children inherit their name and everything. And they don't let outsiders in so everyone thinks they are immortal

[@adrenjones9301]

That would be so sad.

[@moeneet7069]

Would kinda make sense I mean in medieval times it wasn't uncommon for you to see a person even a town over only a handful of times, so if it happened even in a single generation I doubt people would notice a dude you've seen maybe twice looks slightly different.

[@BuschidoEra]

"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." -Eldar Philosopher

[@moeneet7069]

I have a strong urge to run into the woods and power clean boulders with the boys and kill deers and bears with a big pointy stick for some reason now....

[@douglasphillips5870]

There was a old 1st ed Pathfinder adventure where you could play goblins. We loved it so much we continued it into a campaign. Stat wise goblins aren't stupid, but they are often portrayed as stupid, so we went by stats when making our characters. We were mostly the cleverer goblins with one in particular who was a wizard. In Pathfinder, goblins have an aversion to reading and would torment goblins who did read. As a wizard, reading was rather important to his career, so he endeavored to build a goblin society that embraced reading. Our campaign dealt with trying to push past the bias against reading in our community, and we learned that the aversion was created by the goblin leaders to keep the people ignorant and more easily controlled. It was fun playing with the cultural norms, keeping some, but rejecting the ones that didn't work for us. When they made goblins a standard race in 2nd ed, they made it too vanilla in my opinion, which stripped the charm from the older goblins we played.

[@adrenjones9301]

Yeah, some of the best fun is playing against the stereotypes of a race. The current trend of making all races equal is really killing a lot of that fun.

[@TheRepublicOfUngeria]

Ethnicity isn't itself a bullshit concept, but the notion that one is of a PARTICULAR ethnicity doesn't really work. I mean: it works in cases where you are someone who was born into an isolated tribe where everyones mom is also their 3rd cousin. But if there is any sort of migration in your near family history: you are more than one ethnicity. Ethnicity and species distinctions are real and important even though they are fuzzy: because that is how speciation is determined to occur or not occur and when. Like, in regards to humans: the fact that there are different ethnicities with clearly prevalent phenotypes, is a sign that, at least from an historical standard: we have BEGUN to speciate. As the future goes on, if globalization persists, we will, in essence: unspeciate. We would have become different great ape species if we had stayed separate for long enough: but we didn't. And that is probably for the best. I mean: imagine how profoundly fucked up the world would be if European, African, and Asian people couldn't interbreed. Like, we were all perfectly intelligent as our own species, but we were our own species: we just couldn't come back together and recombine.

[@meisterprakti6371]

Pathfinder 2 found a good solution for this. Instead of "race" they use "ancestry". You then combine your ancestry with a "heritage". That can either be cultural, like "mountain dwarf", biological like "aasimar", or something inbetween. Best of both worlds

[@VGJustice]

Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't use Race, but instead Ancestry, because a Human can have parentage from too many sources to be usefully singularly named. This also opens up the same wide range of options for non-humans, making for a mechanically useful game term for where your character came from and what powers they have access to. Still not totally clean, but mechanically useful is good in a game.

[@Kithanalane]

Pathfinder 2nd ed. uses the terms Ancestry and Heritage.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

"Ancestry and Heritage" sounds like a hipster furniture and kitchenware shop.

[@coolbreezeinsummer]

How about lineage?

[@IreneiosOP]

I remember from History class what this concept of ethnicity as an arbitrary form of identification based on language and culture ended up looking like in practice. In the 19th century Austrians (just another kind of Germans in the end) would force all the other peoples in the Habsburg Monarchy to use the German language in the attempt to rewrite their ethnicity with their own. That's why a whole century later almost all the modern nations formed from the carcass of the Habsburg Monarchy at the end of the WWI still understand patriotism and ethnic identity in a very Nazi-like "blood and soil" kind a way. To say today it's a form of self-identification seems like a rational and a quite liberal amendment but economic migrants living in Germany see it just as a another attempt at Germanization. Simply, the historical reputation of the German people works against them. And by this I don't mean the WWII, because I'm not an American and understand there was history before USA became the world hegemon. Anyway, continue doing what you are doing at this channel and remember, at least you're not French.

[@hughmungusbungusfungus4618]

I am an American and also understand there was history before the US was the global hegemon. I think there were these three countries: France, England and Spain and something about pirates. Also the Romans were badass. And ninjas.

[@yuin3320]

​@@hughmungusbungusfungus4618But France and England only existed after Rome found them, and Rome only existed because they stole from the Greeks, and then Spain only existed when they made it to the new world before the English, or maybe it was at the same time? Golly gosh history is complicated. My fat American brain can't keep all these facts straight.

[@thestraycat69]

I like playing reverse sometimes where elves are the strong dumb ones, while orcs are the super inelegant ones really makes an interesting dynamic

[@Ledabot]

A really cool example of hybrid animals are the polar bear and grizzly bear ones. They're huge and terrifying, and also can reproduce.

[@randonimity84]

The term "fantasy otherkin" was not on my list of "things I have heard a youtuber say." I am very glad Burger has corrected that.

[@TheMindofRa]

Whoah first vid I've seen without the ending catch phrase... Due to.. Ironically the camera apparently dieing.

[@devourlordasmodeus]

It is interesting to decide that if a human grows up with dwarves and thinks he is one and the dwarves proclaim him a dwarf then he magically becomes one, the same applying to any race.

[@MySqueezingArm]

'System Agnostic Ancestry' That's the Pathfinder 2E way to say it. 'Heritage' is your "subrace"

[@RoyBlumenthal]

I wish I were as eloquent, knowledgeable, persuasive, and fundamentally sound as you when I was at quarter-life! Thanks for your rants. Fricking love every one of them.

[@krkngd-wn6xj]

I also really like seafaring/sea raider orcs as an idea. A fun bit of history is that the Cossacks, most known as horse riders, were originally kind of like that. They were famed for their sailing skills, and mostly lived on the coasts of the Black Sea. Only after the collapse of the Mongolian Empire, when they moved further away from civilization into the very rich in game and fish frontier lands did that change somewhat. (for Americans, if you imagine the frontier outlaw life of your country's early history, it is a relatively close analogue to steppe Cossacks) They kept their sailing abilities tho, and even raided Constantinople once. (or possibly more then once, I am hazy on my history) They served as a great inspiration for orcs in my own setting, who basically are just Cossacks with a different religion. (a form of ancestor worship instead of an orthodox Christianity analogue)

[@atropa6053]

in the fantasy world in my head, intelligent humanoid races have common ancestors and are the same race, but elves since evolved to have higher levels of estrogen and lower levels of testosterone while orcs evolved the other way around. Dwarves are orcs with less growth hormone, gnomes are elves with less growth hormone. It probably wouldn't work that simple but whatever :D

[@-haclong2366]

It makes sense for fantasy races to segregate, but to me the places where these distinct races co-habitate in a large area is interesting. Or what happens when a large political entity of one race conquers lands of another and doesn't genocide them.

[@1lobster]

In my fantasy universe, “high elves” are skinny, beardless testosterone deprived, and supremely arrogant, perverts who worship something like slanesh, whereas “wood elves” are big, hairy, slightly scary carnivores, whose religion and philosophy is roughly based off of the idea that “life begets death and death begets life.”

[@arbormoon]

I really like this idea honestly!

[@miniondaechir]

extreme elder scrolls

[@yuin3320]

​@@miniondaechirnot even that extreme on the wood elves front, just with amped up bodies by the sound of it lol

[@water594]

At about 2:00 "this is why people say race is a social construct"; *yes* but the reason is also a social construct because its not a clear distinction. People from between each of the "races" exist, and form a pretty wholistic gradient both because people are mixed race and because even ignoring mixed race people there are no set lines. If you walked from Africa, through the middle east into asia (taking the right route) you will not often find hard distinctions and more often find countries with high propertions of what we'd understand as mixed race. Where we draw the lines and why, what we decide is important, is more social than we initially like to believe.

[@Phannall]

Nick Perumov's 'Keeper of the Swords' book series include viking-like orcs in one of the worlds, though they seem to only briefly be mentioned and are very insignificant in the story as a whole (but I haven't read the last book yet so I might be wrong).

[@ginge641]

I much, MUCH prefer using species. The scientific angle is something I like adding to fantasy, because I like fiction that makes fantasy elements more scientific in nature, like Sanderson's work. But then, I'm not about go around correcting people who use "races", because that's what people are used to and what therefore works best in communication.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Does that work with Tolkien's "orcs _are_ elves" thing?

[@QuartzChrysalis]

Back in Darwin's day different species of cabbage were referred to as races.

[@nvmcomrade]

Cultures often have to do with group survival and that is rarely explored deeply. Raiders are raiders because that is what their group does and it does so to accommodate the fact that their environment combined with their level of technological development does not meet certain biological needs so they have to be outsourced somehow. So raiding worked and it continued to work and it became the norm. The environment and technology might change but culture lags behind. Likewise for desert folks or cave dwellers and so on.

[@joeybull9073]

Who do I contact if I want to pitch the most creative character class known to man... I'm obviously feeling myself but my enquiry is serious who where and how do I get this pitch into the format

[@5sparks]

Coincidentally, my homebrew dnd setting has orcs actually being seafaring viking pirate types (as a response to world changes that made being steppe nomads less viable). It doesn't seem to much a stretch for orcs to be the bold ship boarding types even within typical orc stereotypes. I can absolutely see an orc swinging on a rope with wild abandon to go stab some dude with a stick and take his boat. Orcs and pirates have serious untapped overlap imo

[@bloodraptor]

Because Shadiversity inspired me to go absolutely apeshit with worldbuilding and this channel helped to fuel the insatiable hellhole that is my creativity, I created these weird species that somehow can interbreed (I say somehow because if I said the exact stuff which makes it happen would spoil the shit out of the setting), none actually come from the same damn planet as they are, in fact, aliens to the system they now inhabit, living in planets that are made out of layers upon layers of ethnically, historically and all other possible factors distinct from one another to actually be related at all places and yet they are there, occupying another strate in the foundation of this weird planet things. One are rabbit/mammal-like people known as Xulachi, they are on average 1.5 meters tall, with the tallest member recorded reaching 1.76 meters, their fur varies between white or a collection of pastel/light greens and very light browns and the very few peculiar gray and have great tolerance to viruses and bacteria thanks to a peculiar symbiosis with a fungi species found in their blood stream acting as the inmune system. Very nimble and rather good with aim as well as other things regarding sight. Another one, known as the Awakishin share some characteristics with felines of earth... though they have weird horn-like protusions instead of your typical ears and the weird and pointy things that prolong out of the sides of their head are where they breathe through as they in fact, have no nose. They come in a wide variety of sizes depending on the subspecies, some range in the 1.7 meters on average, others share the size of the rabbit fellas and others are massive, having on average members of both sexes on the 2.10 meters. They got some very good amounts of stamina and environmental awareness. Then there's the cyclopsian known as Zaabad, usually big and bulky, with necks that are on average longer than ours cuz they have there special organs which filther out any toxic agent found in the air, they breathe in through these sort of gill-looking orifices located on the sides of the face, right under the bone cheeks. Average of 1.87 meters tall, with skin of green, sometimes brown hues and hair that comes in a wide arrange of colors, these dudes are in a symbiosis with a plant and a fungi that serves as medium between the plant and the Zaabad, it's primarily seen on the skin which allows them to produce more energy than they could otherwise through photosynthesis, hence how they can be on average that big and bulky. Strong and surprisingly resilient. Last, but not really the last of the species, just of the sample there's the Cimarrus, very small and frail people with weird lemon-shaped heads and yellow-ish skin that are very good at understanding technology, average size is 1.3 meters tall, are good at seeing in the dark and they really don't make for good melee units at all, not like they would want anything to do with warfare as they despise violence. Pretty creative and social individuals.

[@nLinggod]

If you're going the "scientific" route, they'd have to at least have a common ancestor somewhere to naturally procreate together. Some things are only possible through magic though, like half dragons. Even worse to try and sort scientifically is tieflings and aasimar. One of their ancestors/parents is a physical representation of a non physical concept lol

[@cobraglatiator]

some/most "races" have a common ancestor somewhere,and for everything else, there's magic. like fertility gods, is an idea.

[@nLinggod]

@@cobraglatiator why did i read that in the "For everything else, there's Mastercard" voice?

[@cobraglatiator]

@@nLinggod honestly i myself am not sure,but that may have been what i was going for/thinking of while typing that. lol. so.

[@RunningOnAutopilot]

Proof of brain differences Chris Chan and dragon lord

[@RowbotMaster]

I actually really dislike when elves are basically just better humans, like seriously Tolkien at least had that they were basically the equivalent of humans from a while ago (at least that's how I understand it) and I also dislike that "the world is always getting worse" type of thing

[@AeneasGemini]

Yeah, it's weird how Vampires seem to be more powerful the older they get, of course humans are the opposite. I think it comes from the attitudes of various renaissance thinkers who looked back to ancient Rome and collectively orgasmed. Weird how they ignored all the achievements and advancements cultures had achieved after that point (Architecture, metallurgy, navigation and even human rights). But yeah, this concept of super ancients is based on that (I believe).

[@RowbotMaster]

@@AeneasGemini if this like a vampire lineage thing yeah that's dumb and gets into inbreeding. But if the older ones are stronger because they've had more blood and there just isn't a cap on how strong they can get I think that could be interesting, I think Hellsing is kind of like that

[@thesquishedelf1301]

Seafaring Orc Raider culture? Go play Thea 2: The Shattering. Pseudo-RPG/Strategy/town-builder, but long story short, the seas are plagued with Orc pirates who are culturally distinct from their land-orc brethren. Haven't been through the whole set of events that can occur with them so can't say much more.

[@ArtturiSalmela]

6:52 You meant to say hybrid. Chimeras are something else.

[@SkyTowerKurogane]

I think he was being hyperbolic.

[@masscreationbroadcasts]

Sometimes I really hate myself. I really like your channel and I think you're very charismatic, at least on camera, but the first thing I've thought for the past 5 videos I've seen of you is "Please, change your look already, it really looks bad". Should this make me feel this way?

[@albertonunez2045]

I think an in universe reason to not have Fantasy species be able to interbreed is that often these species were often created by a God. Whether the God would make them with a biological compatibility with another Race would be up to them. It might not even be biological issue, it might be that the souls the Gods created can’t interbreed. On the other hand the Gods could also have made it so they could do it’s whatever you want in your world.

[@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901]

"race isn't used in science" racemic - used in chemistry. Race just means type. Pretty sure it's more or less the same as species which also means type

[@TheBurgerkrieg]

"equal amounts of molecules with the opposed chirality" = "basic unit of classification and a taxonomic rank of an organism" ???

[@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901]

I'll be honest, most of the rest of what you're saying is basically how to spice up a setting and I like it when people make characters that break the norms and are maltreated or respected because of it

[@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901]

​@@TheBurgerkrieg Noun race (countable and uncountable, plural races) English Wikipedia has an article on: race A group of sentient beings, particularly people, distinguished by common ancestry, heritage or characteristics: A large group of people distinguished from others on the basis of a common heritage (compare ethnic group). See Wikipedia's article on historical definitions of race. A large group of people distinguished from others on the basis of common physical characteristics, such as skin color or hair type. (biology) A population geographically separated from others of its species that develops significantly different characteristics; a mating group. (zoology) Subspecies. (animal husbandry) A breed or strain of domesticated animal. (mycology, bacteriology, informal) An infraspecific rank, a pathotype, pathovar, etc. (obsolete) Peculiar flavour, taste, or strength, as of wine; that quality, or assemblage of qualities, which indicates *origin* or *kind*, as in wine; hence, characteristic flavour. racemic From French racémique, from Latin racēmus (“cluster or bunch of grapes”) + -ique or from raceme +‎ -ic. The name came from racemic acid, which was isolated from grapes. I thought race was like species and originally meant type, but I guess it originally meant something more along the lines of group/kind or origin since the origin of it's use looks like it comes from bunches of grapes and the origins of wines.

[@TheBurgerkrieg]

@@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901 well if we are quoting wikipedia, let's look at the Race (human categorisation) Page: "Modern science regards race as a social construct, an identity which is assigned based on rules made by society. While partially based on physical similarities within groups, race does not have an inherent physical or biological meaning."

[@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901]

@@TheBurgerkrieg I was pointing out that the word wasn't always used this way (edit: winston churchill used it in reference to nations/national tendencies(?) for example, and I believe tolkein used it in a way similar to the way that it is used in modern fantasy) and that it's not unreasonable to use it in this way in the context of fantasy (IMO) because it has a different history to the american/modern usage of the word (just as in different contexts, some words can have clearly related, yet very different, meanings; eg species "1. BIOLOGY a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. The species is the principal natural taxonomic unit, ranking below a genus and denoted by a Latin binomial, e.g. Homo sapiens. 2. a kind or sort." the latter mostly being used in poetry and as a rhetorical flourish, but then it's latin so that's not much of a surprise . I also think that definition you gave is wrong. "modern science" uses words differently in different fields because different fields generally use different jargon. That definition is specific to sociology and history and is frankly americo-centric, as shown, it is not used that way in older fields, which also use it in related but different ways, because they are not as influenced by the american/modern conception of race, and many people I know would not use the sociology/history definition of race or understand it that way because that is not how the history of the word has worked unfortunately. I'm not really trying to argue, it's just I think you're overdeemphasising the very common and powerful role of polysemy in language.

[@joeybull9073]

Also I wanted to say you just got this young n***** here to subscribe... Enjoying the content my ni**a

[@ArtturiSalmela]

Races and ethnicities do have biological differences. It doesn't just happen randomly that some people have blue eyes and blond hair where another people don't, for example.

[@coolbreezeinsummer]

How about lineage

[@RedStinger_0]

20:50

[@tedarcher9120]

Race meant species before 50-60s

[@ArtturiSalmela]

14:21 Are you saying it is wrong to assume orcs be raiders, but assuming the vikings as raiders is fine?

[@TheBurgerkrieg]

you need to have a persecution complex to interpret what I say like this

[@ArtturiSalmela]

@@TheBurgerkrieg Thanks for the clarification

[@artmanxp]

you can call it system-agnostic cultures?

[@DawahArchive]

hello there

[@Cthuluke1]

General Kenobi

[@Aravanus]

Biorigin, bio + origin

[@Lilliathi]

Higher chance of sickle cell disease or the ability to digest lactose might not be as profound as nightvision, but they're certainly not social constructs. My skin color is also not just a phenotypical quirk, it makes it easier for me to live in low sunlight regions without incurring a vitamin D deficiency, and it makes it harder for me to live in high sunlight areas without getting skin-cancer. I'm effectively a snow-human. The way we use the word race is simply synonymous to subspecies, which is a scientific phenomena, not a social construct.

[@fukingidiot9156]

Problem is sickle cell anemia only affects black people in the region, american black people aren't any more or less able to catch it as you are. And while on that note yeah you evolved lighter skin to be able to absorb more vitamin D, but this in itself doesn't mean anything. People from Korea tend to have lighter skin than people from the Philippines, are they different races? People from Iceland have lighter skin than other nordic countries, do they get their own classification? These lines we draw are really fucking arbitrary when you look at how complex humanity is, sure skin color isn't a social construct but race definitely is

[@Lilliathi]

@@fukingidiot9156 Catch it? It's a hereditary disease my dude, you don't catch it. I can't find any article that claims American blacks have it less, only that they're better medicated. Race delineates the main 3 genetic groups that were separated by natural barriers for a prolonged period of human development. Africans were cut off by the sahara desert, Asians and Caucasians were cut off by the Himalayas and the endless steppes and tundra's to the north. Exceptions don't change the rule.

[@Lilliathi]

@Immortal Science of Hauntology In summer? Cruel.

[@dustinshadle732]

I'm American. Idgaf if you use race or species or furry sub categories

[@Bob-fz7pd]

Instead if calling each distinct race a race just refer to them as those or you people.

[@Happyisboss]

Twenty second

[@person1858]

Second

[@arbormoon]

First

[@TriggeredJelly]

Ahem. NO? Race in the real world is also about biology alone - i.e. nature, not nurture. Mongoloid, Negroid and Caucasoid are the three human races recognized by biological science. Ethnicities are subdivisions of race. Like the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are different ethnicities, but the same race. Race and ethnicity have nothing to do with culture. E.g. Asian Americans are still biologically Asian, despite not being Buddhist, knowing kung-fu or speaking Vietnamese.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Citation needed

[@TriggeredJelly]

@@williamchamberlain2263 Which part of what I said do you have doubts about?

[@williamchamberlain2263]

@@TriggeredJelly the bit from "Ahem" to "Vietnamese".

[@TriggeredJelly]

​@@williamchamberlain2263 You're being a sarcastic arse, I see. I made several really simple claims in that post. Either you ask for a specific claim to be backed up or I won't entertain you with my time.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

@@TriggeredJelly you're being a racist prick, and you can't substantiate _any_ of your points.

[@filthycasual6118]

I'm working on a setting that uses Lamarckian evolution through acquired characteristics (IE: "use or disuse"), and "Elves" are bird-people.