Is this the New King of Superfriends? | Carth the Lion | Modern Horizons 2 Spoiler | EDH | MTG

[@TheCommandersQuarters]

A big thank you to Eddie for finding the rule clarification on Carth! twitter.com/WotC_Matt/status/1397597516267286528

[@dakotapoole4293]

Garth the one eye, Carth the lion Probably have to wait for secret layer starwars to get Darth the vador.

[@Edgeof666]

I mean....Disney will probably buy Hasbro at some point in time

[@garrettsmith1949]

Marth the Fires Emblem?

[@vivianm1851]

@@Edgeof666 TRU

[@GRtogetaBIC]

Don't provoke them because they just might. Remember the Walking dead Secret Lair?

[@Quapper]

Just like Jared, Jarad, and Ghireth

[@ericzettl1563]

carth + vorinclex sitting on a tree....

[@demiurgevess5464]

Maybe add some chainvile into the Mix?

[@eannburns1335]

Throw an oath of teferi in there and you're really cooking

[@vivianm1851]

carth and sakashima sitting in a tree and also another sakashima.... and also a clone... and ect ect :P

[@natanaru]

K I L L I N G

[@shypenguin9766]

jace the mind sculpting, and te-fe-ri.

[@samdalfthegray4495]

If there's one thing planeswalkers do well in commander, it's die!

[@KyosukeTsuchigami101]

My superfriends deck is notorious for ending the game on the turn my first planeswalker hits board. Mainly because I have vorinclex and doubling season plus the ability to loop draw and mana.

[@lawrencetoth9627]

@@KyosukeTsuchigami101 Me out here playing my Zur the enchanter solemnity deck everytime I see counter decks.

[@KyosukeTsuchigami101]

@@lawrencetoth9627 my friend group plays so many creature wipe cards I basically have to use my superfriends just to put them in their place or I'm sitting there for 4 hours in a single game after the 8th boardwipe. I usually just hold off on bringing it out til the 2nd or 3rd game so people can do their stuff and I can try other decks out.

[@lawrencetoth9627]

@@KyosukeTsuchigami101 Yah in my Zur deck I play solemnity and a bunch of persist creature and Twilight Shepard or Broodmoth to protect myself.

[@Ryzeer2]

Kind of frustrating he cant use the Dakkon planeswalker. Ya know, the guy who literally was his servant.

[@fallenesther]

Oof so many Golgari commanders

[@robertviscomi8199]

Oops all golgari!

[@pratikshah7306]

Best guild

[@CyberBuster93]

The best guild 🔥🤘

[@therubyskeleton1002]

Golgari rocks😝✌🏻

[@WindFalcon]

Gotta love all this Witherbloom love

[@ninjaatnight4]

My very first carth game with a budget deck, I won turn 5.... I had emblem that gave all creatures +3/+3, I then had the until end of turn for one creature version, with 3 1/1 assassins that have player deathtouch

[@izzyv830]

this spoiler season will just be mitch telling us to watch movies so we get the references

[@DJFelixChester]

If you have chain vale and that “swamps all make 4 black” emblem, you can do all of those two turn ultimates in one turn.

[@grinreaperoftrolls7528]

Let’s be honest, modern horizons is basically commander legends with a different name. I’m super excited. So many commander goodies

[@JayemelMusicUniverse16]

Atraxa got a new best friend. Wow this guy is nuts!

[@Cr0de5_]

Anyone else get the feeling that Mitch has been binge watching old movies recently

[@xChronoFoxx]

The whole thing about Grist being a commander is actually pretty simple when you think about it. His ability makes him a 1/1 Insect when it isn't on the battlefield, *in addition to its other types*. So if Grist is in the command zone, because of his ability, he is considered a 1/1 Legendary Insect Planeswalker Creature, meaning he is legal to be a commander because he is a creature in the command zone and during deck construction

[@jaka1748]

This'll be right at home in my Kethis, the Hidden Hand deck.

[@diebythedrop1]

Saaaaaame

[@steventhehuman4966]

"This miniature bread"

[@ryangainey94]

I built a Carth deck about a week ago. Was really strong in playtesting. It did have a -1/-1 counter subtheme though so that it had a little better protection and removal, plus something else to work with Proliferation (and every planeswalker deck should use proliferation)

[@benfeimer9351]

That sounds fun! Do you have a decklist available to share?

[@Mia_Mor666]

If Carth the Lion is the King of Superfriends, Atraxa is certainly his Queen #Carthtraxa

[@poiri]

So we all agree that the two of them should have “partner with” the other one for the friendliest deck of them all right

[@johnbuscher]

@@poiri Friendly. Yes. That's what we'll chant at them.

[@GRtogetaBIC]

He is way better as a support card on Atraxa that a regular commander. Basically he is no king he is just a simp for Atraxa.

[@tempestandacomputer6951]

This human is nowhere near being worthy of the perfect lifeform that is Atraxa.

[@anubis44r]

Xth were X is the number of comments before mine plus 1

[@wEakling1918]

Ok that’s actually like the first time I’ve laughed at one the first type comments

[@SeriosSkies92]

"ive never seen a +1 in a rules text" Yes you have, on every planeswalker with a +1 ability.

[@aether222A]

Aaaaaaaa

[@ginichimaru001]

r/whooooosh

[@WayfarersBauble]

22:43 in the credits. My lowest TCGPlayer market price is currently $3.41 for my The List printing.

[@eddie_cq8276]

[@WayfarersBauble]

@@eddie_cq8276

[@aether222A]

Since the additional cost is +1 you won’t be able to activate the ability if you can’t already pay the cost. I’m pretty sure you can’t legally activate them to negative 1 then gain it back to zero as a part of the cost but maybe I’m wrong because of stacks

[@danamulvehill5539]

This, in Atraxa, with Oath of Teferi gets alot more immediate ults

[@kylewynne7930]

Carth the Lion.... Carthelion.... this fool went to Jared!

[@scaredycat3146]

While Carth is indeed the progenitor of Jareds bloodline, they lived about 4000 years apart.

[@blakerobinson4198]

I have a garruk tribal deck, and this will go awesome either in it or at the helm!

[@Aquamaru]

I can’t believe there is a squirrel commander!!!

[@NewbyINC]

This is going straight into my Kethis Superfriends deck!!

[@loganator326]

The only issue I see with this deck compared to other super friends builds is a lot of the golgari planeswalkers are reliant on you having creatures in the deck. So this type of deck would probably be more along the lines of 50/50 planeswalkers and creatures, but I'm not the best at brewing up crazy decks like this

[@xero1134]

With all these Death Sentences we could write a whole death paragraph!

[@JAbramowski88]

Finally a commander for my Garruk super friend deck

[@jettblade]

A fun addition considering my SF deck only has 2 creatures in it now.

[@dragonhunter1508]

Sisay is really happy

[@purpleslushie]

Atraxa superfriends are drooling for that Carth.

[@fenixmeaney6170]

I've got a muldrotha oops all permanents that mills everyone and has strong Planeswalker synergies Either my opponents don't deal with the Planeswalkers and I outvalue everyone, or they waste removal/damage to get rid of something I'm just gonna recast next turn

[@QwaC]

* crys in darreti *When is wizards gonna add red planeswalker love 😢

[@dantemalick2872]

Strixhaven added red white fox planeswalker thats superfriendly

[@QwaC]

@@dantemalick2872 sorry,i ment mono red

[@jallen3775]

I play a monored Torbran, Thane of Redfell superfriends deck (I am also hoping for some more support it colorless and monored) Most Chandra planeswalkers have a ability that deals damage, one Jaya can ramp you so can Koth, the other Jaya increases damage, Rowan Kenrith's emblem makes all of your planeswalkers better, Chandra's Regulator and Pyromancer's Gauntlet to round it out

[@Zeromus5555]

He's gonna be NASTY with Lord Windgrace.

[@daviddent5662]

Carth: **Slightly boosts Planeswalkers** Vorinclex: **Supes them up with jet fuel then detonates them** My opponents watching both happen at once: ....Grrr Planeswalkers ruined this game!

[@bradlewis261]

Technically, when not on the battlefield, Grist would be a "Legendary Planeswalker Creature". It has Legendary & Creature in it's type, and in that order, so it works (I guess)

[@necrosnips1456]

??????

[@KyosukeTsuchigami101]

This will slot in great with my sorin ult. Let me just destroy 3 of my own planeswalkers and put them back then search out 3 more what could go wrong

[@Leivve]

Not how that works. You can only activate the planeswalker ability if you have the loyalty count needed, and since the +1 comes as extra for activating the ability you don't get it till you can legally activate the ability. He doesn't reduce the cost he just refunds you when you buy it, but you still need the loyalty count to buy it on your own.

[@mathieubrebouillet714]

That exactly how I read it too.

[@yodaenvy]

You are absolutely correct.

[@eddie_cq8276]

I see where you're coming from, but this has ben confirmed by one of the rules gurus over at Wizards itself: twitter.com/WotC_Matt/status/1397597516267286528

[@romeesio]

Relevant rules: 606.5 A loyalty ability with a negative loyalty cost can’t be activated unless the permanent has at least that many loyalty counters on it. Opinion: given the wording, it's treated like any other additional cost thing, say Thorn of Amethyst or Eidolon of Obstruction. You need to be able to satisfy the additional (and original!) cost to even start to activate or cast: I can't cast Lotus Petal through a Thorn of Amethyst even if I have a Birgi, who would let me pay for the petal (once I cast it). Similarly, you need to have 6 loyalty on your Garruk Huntsman to start to try to use the ability, to then be able to add and subtract accordingly.

[@trackatlas6626]

Close, but no. This is an ability that alters the cost of activating a planeswalker's loyalty ability. So before any loyalty counters are added or removed to activate the planeswalker ability, the cost is adjusted. For a plus ability, it means you get one additional loyalty counter when you activate the ability. For a minus ability, it means you remove one less loyalty counter than the ability would normally require. Now, this doesn't change the fact the you still must have enough loyalty counters on the planeswalker to activate the ability at the reduced cost, so you were correct about that. But you are wrong about the cost modifier only happening AFTER you can legally activate the ability, since the cost modifier is already in effect BEFORE you activate the ability. Now, if it had been worded "Whenever you activate an ability of a planeswalker you control, put a loyalty counter on it", you would be correct. In that case, the ability would need to be activated at its normal cost first. It's like the difference between "This spell costs one mana less to cast" and "When you cast this spell, add one mana". The first one is a cost adjustment, the second is a triggered ability.

[@cookiecreep9204]

I am currently looking for space for him in the Atraxa deck i'm building. He might be pretty fun to draw as Compleate (It will be all-proxy in Phyrexian theme).

[@shapooopiefour7173]

This is really good, but I think Atraxa’s proliferation and more colors will still rule. Yeah, if you active an ability multiple times, you get more, but I don’t know how worth it that is

[@GRtogetaBIC]

Yeah especially because while is true you can istanly use their ultimate ability but they then die which even for golgari can be difficult to retrieve from the graveyard because few cards targets all permanents in graveyard instead of other types (there are a good amount don't misunderstand me but if you have the mana for those you would have already won on any other better deck so I'm only talking about ones with low mana cost and not 6 or 7 mana cost, in this one you could litteraly found yourself with only planeswalkers and basically no real creature to benefit from them also very few planeswalkers are alone win condition, i think only Vraska and the Strixhaven Liliana) and I think none targets only planeswalkers at a decent mana cost. Plus this deck relies too much on the commander being alive and he doesn't even help paying the mana cost of the planeswalkers he tutors for so is really easy too ending dead for insufficient mana because if you build this on planeswalkers you need to have creatures to power up with emblems or that have useful effects or you can use for the sacrifice combos you would likely put in it so your ramp spells are limited making that +2 to your commander cost really a pain in the ass if you also have to cast planeswalkers that are almost all at least 5 mana.

[@jerrywhoomst1116]

First Garth and now carth? What's next, Barth?

[@theotherguy4478]

Helm of the host would be a great card to add.

[@hiei82]

Sure am glad my Superfriends deck is Jeskai.

[@dubiousragdid8628]

Will add this to my existing Atraxa Super Friends deck. But its not a great Super Friends commander in just Golgari.

[@imstingyanditsmine4934]

Mitch when will you cover the very, VERY long named red-black commander?

[@deandrewilson1413]

Hoping to see the vid soon. She’s going right in my kroxa build haha

[@williamwalton9154]

@@deandrewilson1413 or to make more food for a certain hungry Jund Dragon.

[@imstingyanditsmine4934]

Plus I just love the idea of thinking it like this clip of over feeding the opponent m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqWod3iap9eLmZY

[@imstingyanditsmine4934]

@@deandrewilson1413 he just made the video

[@deandrewilson1413]

@@imstingyanditsmine4934 sweet thanks!

[@Jam-im2wg]

I imagine you still need the total amount of loyalty counters for a minus ability and can't have the plus one fill in considering its part of the cost. Like with Nissa, Vital Force's ultimate, you would still need 6 loyalty counters and the extra + would just keep her from dying

[@Jam-im2wg]

Looking at it more I'm actually unsure, does anyone know if the ability affects the cost before or when you activate it?

[@ClaytonPeace]

@@Jam-im2wg rules clarity pinned at the top. Spoiler, you can.

[@Jam-im2wg]

@@ClaytonPeace thank you for helping me get past the terrible affliction of my tunnel vision/investigative skills 👌

[@ClaytonPeace]

@@Jam-im2wg hahaha just glad I could help point that out 🤷🏻‍♂️😂 honestly I wasn't sure how it would interact either. But Mitch pinned the tweet which added all the clarity we all needed 😁

[@kylejones5518]

Looks like I have a new addition to my Golos SF deck

[@Cwronaga216]

There is a new ooze commander in the spoilers as well you should look at

[@noardon1]

Golgari is getting some LOVE!

[@Avatarbee]

Maybe a more intuitiv way to word his second abillity would have been something like: Whenever one of your planeswalkers uses one of its Loyaltyabillities that planeswalker gains 1 Loyalty. But then again Wizards probably had a good reason to word it that way.

[@Jindistinct]

If it were worded that way you wouldn't be able to use abilities with minus costs until you had that much loyalty to start with.

[@whorcares123]

The way you worded it would make it a triggered ability, not a static one, meaning it would use the stack, allowing your opponents to respond. It would also mean a planeswalker at 0 loyalty would die due to state based actions before the additional counter would be added, and your planeswalker would still need the loyalty specified on the card to activate a minus ability. That in mind, you would need to put an "if" at the start, and an "instead" at the end, to avoid putting another trigger on the stack. The loyalty counters added and subtracted when you activate the abilities of planeswalkers are the cost, not the effect. If you read Carth the Lion knowing that, then it makes a lot more sense as a cost reduction effect, and is a lot more brief than the alternative. WotC would have to put a lot of text in order to ensure the players wouldn't get confused. Based off of precedent (Pir, Vorinclex, etc.) would read something like this: "If activating an ability of a planeswalker you control would add or remove counters from that planeswalker, instead add one more or remove one less. If no counters would be added or removed this way, instead add one." Now you are jamming up the text box and giving your players a wall of text in order to understand a passive effect, and even in that case, it still doesn't actually allow you to activate a (-6) ability if your planeswalker only has 5 loyalty, so for what they were going for, the way it is worded is probably the only way without changing the rules.

[@anubis44r]

Wait. The +1 is an additional cost. So you must have 6 loyalty counters on Nissa to be able to activate it. And then you get the +1. Or do I miss something ? 🤔

[@newttrain8667]

I believe that is how it works out, yes.

[@mateombot7493]

it works like mana cost, you apply the cost change first. So you can activate it with only 5 loyalty

[@GilroyIronheart]

That’s what I’m thinking too.

[@CrimsonHiroX07]

With the way its worded, its a cost modifier. Because it says "cost an additional", it means you modify the cost. If it said "as an additional cost", then it would work the way you said originally.

[@blakerobinson4198]

I had the same thought. I don't know the answer, gatherer has yet to release any rules clarification, so we have to see.

[@AlessyLopes]

all i want is a superfriends commander that does'nt have blue.

[@roygbiv390]

Great Spinal Tap reference 💯

[@cerebralisk]

I think with how the ability is worded it doesn't work that way, it adds an additional cost to the loyalty abilities to gain one loyalty so you'd still need to have enough to actually activate the ability in the first place, it would just then leave you with one loyalty afterwards. So each of those timeframes is off by one turn. It's still really good of course and that wording is strictly better should you have kaldheim Vorinclex in play, as it means you'll get an extra +2 loyalty when you use a - ability instead of just negating one cost. And like nothing in this sin-cursed set is going to be budget so you might as well have monstrous raider.

[@Jindistinct]

Nah, the wording would be different if it added on after activation and they've said on twitter that it just adjusts the cost.

[@cerebralisk]

@@Jindistinct Oh cool okay.

[@crypto091]

Vorinclex in here too is beastly power

[@retro.7673]

Oh boy plainswalker tribal??? Poggggg

[@LucidDreams024]

MOUTH WATERING PERFECTION

[@typhlocf5062]

Most likely an auto include for Lord Windgrace

[@ayu5tails]

New king? (laughs in Phyrexian) -Atraxa

[@themonsterlegend3709]

This would be amazing but it’s only golgari planeswalkers

[@Nerdhistory_TheLibrarian]

Is it me or does that head behind Carth look like the same head from the instant from Ravnica? the golgari spell, trophy something?

[@GIANTCADET]

Nissa vital force would essentially need 7 loyalty to pay the -6.

[@GIANTCADET]

@@nathanmoore3866 dig. So good for minus abilities, taxed for plus?

[@gsimscovers]

Pleaseeee make a deck tech for Carth when MH2 comes out. I’ve never considered dropping $100 on a deck before now

[@midteirgamer]

Narset will always be my super friends queen

[@arubjude6995]

Great to see a new lilliana tribal deck

[@micheal5973]

Now what do i cut from my sissay wubrg deck now....

[@ScorpioneOrzion]

who do you think should just more copies of him so all ults of your planeswalkers become +x instead of minusus

[@rmreagle]

Does the wording "additional cost" make it so you have to be able to pay the original cost first then just activate again as a rebate? Curious if they make a ruling on it

[@eddie_cq8276]

The way this works has been confirmed by a Wizards rules guru here: twitter.com/WotC_Matt/status/1397597516267286528

[@randommindz6782]

Welp...my Golos Snyder Cut deck has a new crime partner

[@CaryKingdom]

People are mentioning Vorinclex, but I'm curious how that matches up for minus abilities. Let's say a -1 ability, with Carth and 'Clex in play. Is that (+1 from Carth x2 from Vorinclex) -1 for ability, making it a +1? Or is it (+1 from Carth -1 for ability) x2 from Vorinclex, making it a net 0?

[@jallen3775]

I am not a judge, However i bet it is a layers issue, you might be able to choose the order, that should make a natural -1 into a +1 or a Zero (depending on order chosen by the controlling party) Hopefully this is how it will work out

[@Ukkepuk123]

-1+1=0, 0x2=0. The cost is additional, before activation the +1 is already active

[@KingpinCarter]

Imma need a decklist asap

[@silverpaladinx1667]

His ability is not a reduction to the cost but and additional cost. So the pw’s cannot be ulted right away since you need the initial cost of an ult to even activate it

[@eddie_cq8276]

The way this works has been confirmed by a Wizards rules guru here: twitter.com/WotC_Matt/status/1397597516267286528

[@Yourbeautiful666]

I couldn’t call him the king of superfriends. It’s missing Grixis colors, which are the best colors for superfriends. At least it has black.

[@evanragland4930]

Party on Carth!!!! 🤘

[@loganclosson2982]

alternate title: making the most expensive deck ever

[@darkzero3]

Doubling Season, Vorniclex, Atraxa.

[@davidefuma963]

Are you going to make a budget deck tech for him ? pls i beg you

[@Bongus_Bubogus]

The black/green commanders from this set are reading kinda weird this set.

[@ChrisRoss2017]

I have very plain friends Perhaps this deck is right for me

[@blajouskowits33]

add this with oath of teferi and vorinclex

[@petermilwaukee8184]

Are we sure the rules work this way that you do the math and not both of them? Like you don’t minus 6 then add 1 you just remove 5?

[@HugSeal42]

When paying a cost you calculate the total cost, lock it in, and then pay it. EDIT: Pasted the actual rule (601.2f) The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

[@oliverschmidt5037]

@@HugSeal42 youre probably right, but we dont know if loyality cost can be processed this way. Probably we will get some clarifications in 606.4.

[@kydenheart9367]

I’m a little disappointed you didn’t mention Nissa Who Shakes the World. Not only can she double your forest mana after one turn she can pull all your forests out of the deck.

[@kjf5212]

Golgari Horizons

[@alexbevan2183]

I see a ban hammer in the future...

[@benknock981]

New vorinclex is still better, casting him gives you most Ults already, plus esika is still honestly better you get all 5 colors and get to cast them for free, aswell as creatures for free so you can defend them

[@snow8624]

Carth and Helm of the Hosts Ult every planeswalker...every turn. Why not?

[@PatPuppy]

Oh the card doesn't work how I thought it does. I thought you got to +1 again after doing so the first time. Like being able to use Planeswalkers +1 abilities twice instead of just once like on the same turn.

[@atle853]

Liliana vess Tutors 5 cards in a world with graveyard hate and less removal than protection she can tutor

[@LoverofTruth1]

I use Golos for SF

[@CrimsonHiroX07]

Lets not forget about all the walkers that don't have a plus ability. If they have a -1, they're now 0 and those that have a 0 now have a plus. Personal bias: (Feel free to skip) The moment I see this card in the command zone or hit the field, I'm scooping. I have an unjustified dislike of planeswalkers and they (regardless of walker, except the original Tibalt) are on top of my kill-on-sight list. Everything described in this video works into my bias and why I'd rather just not play against it. I also don't use planewalkers in 95% of my decks so this card is not relevant to me. The decks that do have walkers are not there for their ults, but either a static ability (so I forget to use their abilities) or one ability that combo's (Saheeli).

[@dubsinthetubs]

Hell yeah so many golgari commanders

[@gabrielbost8281]

It's as an additional cost to use the abilities, it doesn't reduce the cost, E.G. you need 9 loyalty to use deathorde general ability, when you have 9 loyalty you can use it which pumps liliana to 10 then-1 so it's like this 9+1-9=1 leaving liliana on 1 loyalty

[@youwillneverknowiwasneverh5192]

👀

[@michealstammers3932]

Hello my garruk tribal commander

[@itzmimz8238]

Golgari has gone is so many directions lately

[@xgxwills2857]

Elderspell looking mighty good against this deck

[@willlindell8904]

probably just going to slide this into my Atraxa deck, and not play them as a commander... mainly cause I don't need my 19th Golgari Commander

[@GrandpasMagic]

Nobody is playing Superfriends in just B/G, you'd be better off just adding this to a Sisay Superfriends or Golos Superfriends, both of whom are better Superfriend commanders due to 5 colors.

[@jamesb7257]

I mean honestly put 3-4 garth's in a 60 card super friends deck and you now have a 5 color monstrosity.