Top 10 Great Games We Won't Play Again!

[@saiyanroyalty229]

6:28 that interaction with the pen is so amazing I couldn't stop laughing

[@tynatzke9067]

Next year's Kickstarter stretch goal: Tom plays Diplomacy.

[@Steve-L]

For the right price!

[@freddonoso2299]

I would LOVE to play Diplomacy with Tom!

[@ProdigyGameWorks]

Better yet. Netrunner with all three of them!

[@MrOneofthousands1994]

1:23 At first I thought he said "Panda McLegacy," and I was like, "Why have I never heard of this game?!" Our brains can be dumb sometimes.

[@toweypat]

MrOneofthousands1994 I would play that game!

[@hugmonger]

I almost died laughing at this comment.

[@JT-mq6oc]

MrOneofthousands1994 someone SHOULD make this game! ☺️

[@Molotail7]

The 3 of you included Netrunner on this list and even for the same reason. There is the obvious solution that you play the game against eachother ... I was a bit surprised to hear that you all said that you find nobody to play it with. If it's a good game (never played it myself), it shouldn't be a problem convincing eachother.

[@hardyworld]

It finally happened, the 1 in 400 chance that you all roll the same value. It brings me more joy than it really should.

[@PressEnter42]

That's the chances of 2 of them getting the same. 1/20 times 1/20 is 1/400 but you must multiple another 1/20 to get 1/8000

[@Jeff321]

+Matt Bayes all 3 rolling specifically a "10" is 1/8000. But all 3 rolling the same (regardless of the value) is only 1/400. First number doesn't matter, only if the next 2 match it.

[@PressEnter42]

hmmm i need to go back to math class XP

[@MichaelNerman]

Not all numbers would have been as noteworthy as 10, since it's a top ten list. If they had all rolled 12's, for example. 1, 6, 7, 11 and 20 would also have been noteworthy, so I give it a 6/8000 (3/4000). :P

[@Dr_C_Smith]

Matt Bayes Possibly. The fact that you made a probability error while having the name Bayes is particularly ironic, though.

[@eddieb8054]

I love turning on these guys in the background, ya I'll pay attention the first time I watch. But just half listening with the silliness in the background. It's a ton of fun.

[@eddieb8054]

Ha I rewatched again two years later...

[@ArtbyGalen]

is there a Top Ten Guilty Pleasure games? like, games they are embarrassed or feel silly about liking? I'd watch that for sure.

[@FaceInAClock]

Art by Galen k

[@blind_surgeon]

@@FaceInAClock why even bother commenting

[@revimfadli4666]

Maybe one of those casual "trash" which are still fun anyway, or games which break the usual wisdom about agency, balance, elimination etc yet somehow aren't less fun that their "properly designed" contemporaries

[@JasperHayward]

Would be interesting to revisit this list in a few years and see if they did end up playing any of them.

[@peterc.hayward8067]

It's been a few years!

[@JasperHayward]

@@peterc.hayward8067 sure has! 😅

[@Crs9072]

Oh wait, so both Tom, Sam and Zee all had Netrunner on a list for the same reason that they don't have anyone to play the game casually. Dude, maybe play it together?!?

[@TheRealBlueSwan]

Exactly!

[@artstsym]

As someone who played with a friend casually for a long time: you get used to someone else's style real fast. Both of us weren't strangers to branching out (except I will never play HB because it's full of scum), but we still came to understand what each other was looking for and either playing into it at our own detriment or building to counter it at theirs.

[@Tubalcain422]

Both?

[@Valdna]

I have to say that this so far your best made, edited, and structured video so far. Fluent conversation and overall great subject for top10 list - job well done!

[@computermaster124816]

Regarding 7 Ages, it tells you right on the box. It takes 6000 years to play.

[@shadowscribe]

Ah the curse of becoming a Tourney game. People who don't know it very well, and people who optimize the heck out of it. Not a pleasant domain for people who know it, and DON'T want to deep dive the mechanics. I guess you could go in drafting, but the super players still have the advantage.

[@ArnoVdVelde]

Sad thing is. I feel every cardgame has the Android: Netrunner problem. At a certain moment you just need to go with the hardcore crowd and go along with the meta or not be able to play with the vast majority of people. And if you do you won't have a very good time cause you have very little chance of winning.

[@cursivecurses]

I feel like Summoner Wars avoids this. Yes, you can buy Reinforcement Packs, but for the most part you don't deck build, you just hand a person a deck, take another one, and go for it. Star Realms, likewise. Basically the games that don't have you preconstructing your deck.

[@hereisnickscott]

Honestly it really depends on your community. As someone who's been playing magic since highschool, I've experienced both good communities that welcome anyone to play and others that made me quit for a couple years. The good thing with magic is that if you play with set decks, or give a new player a deck you designed to be pretty competitive, I find they can usually catch on to how the game plays and you don't have to really dumb down your decision making. A collectible game I would recommend that I'm in love with is a card/dice hybrid called dicemasters. While it still has meta cards that dominate, the fun thing is most characters are playable, and there are things like globals and basic actions that are shared between both players. Some of the most powerful things in the game both players will have access to if someone brings it in their team.

[@SethalaTheGamer]

Yeah, I agree. That's exactly why I stopped playing Magic the first time. (I kind of got into it again when some friends started playing Commander, since that's different enough from "normal" Magic for the game to not be "solved" right away, but I lost interest again when a lot of friends started making very competitive decks...) So far though, Force of Will has been pretty fun in my area. I think part of the key is having a game where there's a lot of choices to make during the game, as opposed to coming up with a strategy when you build the deck and only slightly varying it to counter specific decks you go up against.

[@jonathanyoon8835]

+Dexter Mahler netrunner is starting a rotation in early 2017. they are getting rid of the first two blocks (12 packs) which did have a couple of overpowered cards.

[@nikkis.2066]

I know you don't mean EVERY card game, because there are a ton of fun games either using cards in addition to other mechanics (as a main part of the game) or are just card games, that are still great for beginners and people who've been playing for awhile. Sushi Go is fantastic once you explain how the cards and scoring work, Gloom is a game where even if you lose, the storytelling of a group will make up most of the enjoyment anyway, Sheriff of Nottingham is fantastic and I feel the base game of the Warhammer LCG is fine as well. Games that aren't solely card games, but has cards as a huge aspect of the game, that still allow for both crowds to enjoy, would be Abyss, Lords of Waterdeep. With Magic, if you're playing with a newcomer there are fun ways to keep it fun, tweaking decks to mostly be of uncommons/rares, buying Commander decks and even (as a one time only deal) buy you and your friend(s) intro decks to start things off OR buy booster packs together. There are ways to makes thing fun, you just really need to avoid the people that ONLY want to win, they tend to be unfun at every experience of play. And yes, you probably meant every card game that's a CCG, TCG or LCG, but I think things can apply to other games that use cards and end up with expansions/mini expansions. But I think at the end of the day, it REALLY comes down to people who want to play games to have fun and try to win but don't ruin it for others and then the competitive crowd that are there solely to win at any and all costs.

[@Bodyknock]

Regarding Zee talking about "But Wait There's More", what if you play a house rule variant where everybody gets a different random product card instead of everybody using the same product? That seems like it would solve the issue he had with the game.

[@torlumnitor8230]

Doug Rosengard that breaks the theme of the game. It's a rip on 'those' infomercials. The players aren't selling different vacuums, they are telling you different features of the same one.

[@Nero_479]

I'm not sure I will ever play Pandemic again. I love the game, but after playing Legacy, I just don't see the regular game being as exciting or engaging for me. we just finished legacy, so maybe I'm just burnt out on it right now, but regular pandemic will not be seeing the table for me in a while.

[@Vospi]

Ricochet Robots is probably my most favorite board game, ever. It's cool, it's quick, it requires you to think and noone ever is responsible for your defeat except your skill. Very little room for sheer luck. More than that, it scales for any group easily (cannot be easier, I believe) and you can practice it alone if your want, and it definitely wakes up your attention and focus. I'm not supergood at it, but I'm fine, and in a good company and good state of mind I'd play every time I'm offered to.

[@DangerKennyB]

I've made this mistake with every FFG LCG that I've tried. You get a core set, dip your feet in, this is great, oooh, some packs, OH DEAR LORD THEY WON'T STOP COMING. They milk them to death and you either keep up with the flood or rapidly fall behind and have no one to play with. Then you're managing all the decks for anyone you do still play with, and it gets boring because you've built all the decks and anyone who plays you really doesn't give that much of a crap about how a deck does because they didn't build it.

[@donaldthomas4399]

Completely agree

[@AndyVandercoy]

Doomtown. Still keeping up with GOT and thinking about Ashes, but scared. Agreed and only played a few times of AN, too much

[@Dr_C_Smith]

While I can’t fault a company for wanting to keep hitting the cash register, it is awful when a game just keeps changing like that. I’m a much bigger fan of new maps/consistent rules (Power Grid, TTR, Formula D, &c) than new components which shift the entire balance of a game.

[@Falnky]

Tabletop Simulator for the PC is the best thing to happen to introduce new players to X-Wing, imo. I'm just starting out with it and I agree that it's way too daunting on the surface, but having TTS available to play with my friends, netdeck lists, and see what's fun to play, allows me to play the game without limits, and figure out what minis I want to drop my cash on.

[@Arma070]

I know how Tom and Sam feel about Netrunner. That's why I only play with just the Core set. I'm glad some friends of mine like it that way as well.

[@Arma070]

oh snap, I didn't expect the game to be on Zee's list as well.XD should've waited a bit vefore posting.

[@davidwayneflowers]

Agreed. That is the only way I would consider playing net runner. It doesn't have to be core vs core, but it does have to be one fixed data pack/core deck vs another. No mixing from all the sets. Just too much to know to be effective and building a deck.

[@zeroisnine]

I think one of the big things with Netrunner is that the design of the game is very different, and took quite a long time to figure the game out. It's not so much an expansion thing (decks for a long time ran mostly core set cards, and you can do fine for the most part), it's just more of a player-base learning curve. Magic (and it's derivatives) have a much more straight-forward value analysis. This card costs X and has Y strength and is fundamentally very tit-for-tat. It's not as simple as that (or at least it's not that) in Netrunner.

[@davidwayneflowers]

I agree that magics card value determination is a lot more straight forward, but in both cases knowledge of and access to all existing cards and time played both continue to drive the odds of winning higher. It has a very long curve of expertise. Too long for my taste. Too much of an investment to move up that curve.

[@philsheep9926]

Yeah, I agree. Having loved the original I avoided Netrunner for ages, but eventually I took the plunge and got a core set plus about 3 data packs and took about 8 cards out of each so that the base decks can be tweaked and have a few nasties put in them ever so slightly (5 mins at the start of playing). This does us fine - the great reboot with the different factions included in the base box gives enough to play the game with some variety. I will _never_ play competitively, nor play someone else's deck, and I have no interest in doing so, so what I've got is a perfect amount for what I want from the game. If you are tempted by the game (and it's great) and are happy to all play out of the same box, then I'd recommend it.

[@WCP4to]

Great top 10 Keep up the good work! Just to clarify everyone, Caravelas is about the Portuguese Discoveries, ships are from Portugal, not from Spain. It is okay to mix both up but i would like to pass the message :-P

[@SenBullok]

WCP4to but it is NOT ok to mix both...

[@donaldthomas4399]

Totally agree with the xwing/net runner thoughts. Star Trek Attack Wing fits in that same bill also. I also struggle with the fact you have to spend at least an hour planning your game build, probably even longer than that now, before you even sit at the table to play. In the early stages it was a 1/2 hour, which for what looks like a coffee table game is still too long. But it's a well designed game and fun to play if you have time and people your skill level to match with.

[@dorpth]

Zee, the "BSG in an hour" you want is Dark Moon. It literally started as a shorter BSG, a fan made variant called "BSG Express". It cuts out movement and ship combat for a 60-90 minute game. It also replaces the cards for skill check with hidden die rolls. The traitors will try to submit bad rolls, claiming it was the best they rolled. Players have to eventually determine who is lying. It works SO much better than the cards. Shortened BSG meets Liar's Dice.

[@JonReid01]

Sounds like something zee would really love

[@paulcrosslin6011]

Wow guys! I think this was the best top 10 you have ever produced. You all make valid points backed up with solid opinions. I was engrossed the entire time. Partly because of the conglomerate knowledge base but mostly because of the way you 3 get along, have fun and laugh. :) (and no Jason) Thanks for all that you do! BTW: just got my promo packs and having almost too much fun ;) And Hey .. I want that Lime-Green Dice Tower shirt! Take mah monay nao, Plox!

[@tehCrusix]

Love the reference to F-Zero and Wipeout. I've met some tabletop players that seem to hold themselves above video games for some reason, it's nice to know that isn't the case here. Respect, Zee! :P

[@TheCliffsideBunker]

Thought for sure I would see Axis & Allies from someone's list. It's a great game that Sam and Tom may never play again.

[@christophrehse]

Sam, here it comes. The inevitable argument surely foreseen to be made for WAR OF THE RING: According to the books, the nature of things was that the Shadow had long planned the war below the surface and pushed it to the surface at a time that seemed entirely in its favor. The other nations' reactions to the development and to the actual run of that war were quite different. In my humble opinion, the game mirrors the described outset inequalities, varying approaches, diplomatic issues, strategic problems, as well as the impossibilities of carrying it out against a massive, even overpowering opponent very nicely and very thematically. And the game does more: It let's you explore a ton of possible options to re-write the war in most of its parts besides also finding the time for individual stories and tragedies (a genius stretch). I would argue that the game let's you re-write a loved (war) plot more elegantly and thoroughly than many other games claim to do (e.g. Star Wars: Rebllion, after some plays most possible plot twists seem to have been revealed). Just because a war does not follow the all to usual line of "boom, here we all are, let's all fire away and see who stands last" does not mean that a) it is not a war and b) it is not a very intriguing war (to be carried out on cardboard that is). Yes, they could have found another title like "THE UNFOLDING, THE EXECUTION AND THE END OF THE WAR OF THE RING" but how pedantic would that have been? And how pedantic is it for us to make a request in that regard. That a player has not moved his nation(s) "at war" at the right time may be very well founded on his own making. The game is complex and long and does not hit my table as much as I would like but once it unfolds (even with its current and upcoming expansions) it does shine. I would have loved to play it against you.

[@elmotoja]

I agree. Even in todays world conflict does not have to lead to all out war. Look at Ukraine - Russia practically took part of it but no war aggains Russia is waged by its allies. Perhaps folks in Middle Earth were not attacked by the Shadow but decided (by referendum or similar means) that thay would want to ally with Sauron. Look at Saruman - this is exactly what he did ;) It is all peacetalks and misunderstandings, no need to automatically go to war, Sam.

[@owlblocksdavid4955]

Besides, Gondor practically starts at war. It's just your other POTENTIAL allies that don't. Plus, wotr is more epic.

[@stm12p]

I think Sam got the wrong idea, as many ppl did when first played it. The good side never wants to make an all scale war with Shadow, because it's a suicidal mission. When human, elf or dwarf dies, they die. When Orcs, Goblins, Uruk hai die, they go back to the reserve. The fellowship needs to bring the ring to Mordor, while others tried to hold the ground until the ring is destroyed, NOT marching to Mordor. Besides the Fellowship only needs 4 military points to win. Use some action to threat some weakly defended Shadow forts. The game for me is elegantly designed, everything seems to cope well with the movie (i didnt read the book, stopped after Bilbo saga). Have the fellowship moving around, send Aragorn, Legolas... to armies to help, sneak attack, march armies to force Shadow engage to make some nation at war.... A lot of things to try that can make me play it any day.

[@thomassmith3769]

Christoph Rehse Well said all! Waited ten years to play it with my son and it doesn't disappoint!

[@Nabocleese]

Well Said Christoph Rehse. War of the Ring is, by far, my favorite game. I'm just learning to use the two expansions for it, and find that they add so much to an already amazing game!

[@EamonBurke]

Great top ten! Good concept. Also Tom, I thought the same as you for Floater

[@MiguelSeabraMelo]

Sam, in "Caravelas" the ships depart from Portugal, not Spain. :)

[@patricksullivan6988]

What Tom says about X-Wing Miniatures is kind of how I feel about Magic: The Gathering. I think it's a great game, but everyone I know that still plays is too serious about building their decks/collections. I want to be able to play casually without a tournament-honed, up-to-date deck against someone else who is similarly casual about their deck-building.

[@skycap3081]

Draft sealed prereleases commander there is ways to play casually

[@owlblocksdavid4955]

Was expecting Chaos in the Old World. Didn't you guys say the mechanics were solid, despite the theme being too much for you? Don't remember much about it.

[@claymeyer5046]

I really like how you leave up the number markers and titles while people are talking. It makes it easier to skip through the video. Great job!

[@sentinelmoonfang]

I agree with X-Wing to an extent, and the trouble is that the designers have gone nuts with the abilities and special cards and such, to the point where the build is often more important than how you fly. I've played in a number of tournaments, even won a few, but the metagame in X-Wing right now is cancerous. The game needs to go back to the focus being on maneuver and dogfighting, not ability combos and turrets to avoid having to bother with any maneuver at all. Netrunner is fantastic. I think the only thing it suffers from is required card knowledge to play. Even being out of the game for a few months can mean you're screwed.

[@LaughingOwl10]

Three people saying they can't find someone to play Netrunner with that wants to play it more casually. Why don't you just play it with each other?

[@MichaelJohnson-qf9vg]

X-Wing is another that just took off and passed me by at light speed. I couldn't possibly keep up with the pace of collecting other players were able to maintain.

[@gamesdisk]

6.30 true friendship

[@zachmckinney2497]

I love netrunner, and teaching it, but I am use to teaching games so I know how to present myself and the game. however I can understand how it is hard to get to the table, and how someone would be turned off by it.

[@vexingarcanix95]

How do you get a full game of 7 Ages in in 7 hours? It usually takes us about 10 hours to play through 3 of the ages and we're playing it quick and there is very little downtime in our games.

[@AlexCachineroG]

No this is actually an amazing list, instead of doing something they've already done a bunch of times w lots of crossover they chose something unique. and the bants are top notch now, they've definitely grown into their role as entertainers (re: Sam and zee's improvised onomatopoeia duet).

[@RetroShock19]

Hey Dice Tower. Idea: Top 10 Character Sheets, or Character Boards for a Board Game. I think its a pretty important aspect, u love bigger, smaller, more complex, a lot of attributes, simple, lot of changeable things... thats an idea. Whats ur favourite character sheet? U love to write with pencil, u use tokens on it, u love to place cards on it, it has an inventory, what kind of inventory.... etc.

[@Arkylie]

Actually, I'd like to see this as well. A critique of the physical aspects of the game, rather than just the mechanics. That's an interesting topic. I know that there's a distinction between the feel of using tiny colored blocks vs. using meeples, and there's a difference for me between using the official Pathfinder sheets and using sheets I designed for myself to put the information in a visual order that makes better sense to my brain (e.g. combat section vs. noncombat, and the items in the order they'd be referred to within the encounter, and the skills by category instead of alphabetical).

[@robertmoffitt1336]

Axis & Allies Global. A friend of mine in Dayton OH bought a kitchen table specifically to fit that game on (super long map board), but after playing it a ton of times, the length of the game is just too monstrously long.

[@cadenlaptad3247]

Tom live-plays Diplomacy as a super high stretch goal in the next DT Kickstarter? ;P Sounds great to me!

[@dregen77]

The two games that I can think of right now: - 1830: Felt like going to work. I can appreciate it's really well put together, but I just didn't have fun playing it. - Splendor: It's a well-designed game, easy, short and addictive. And this is why I grew tired of it after playing more than 50 times already. I also don't like the feeling when after buying a card, the one that comes next was better for you in all regards. I know it's how the game plays, it is just me: I don't enjoy it anymore.

[@KH-ft4ut]

I wish I could get Netrunner to the table. I don't know anything about the hardcore scene, nor do I care. But complex 2 player only games are hard as hell to find players for :( Tom is crazy in regards to x-wing though.

[@TinoForever]

You should go to the tournaments.

[@MrHudson2212]

Netrunner is not nearly as bad to get into as people think. Go to your local meta meetings (you can usually find them on facebook, google or satellite-grid.blogspot.com) and bring both a corp deck and a runner deck. Then just ask someone to teach you the basics and play with you using your own constructed decks. That should be much more fun and easy to get into than the degeneracy that's going on in the competitive meta right now.

[@MrHudson2212]

I could have done a better job with phrasing this.

[@Subangelis]

I don't think so. I am VERY interested in X-Wing, but will never play it for the same reason. My local gaming shop is always running tournaments, and have teams going to tournaments, so it would be like playing 1 on 1 basketball with Jordan. I would never be able to compete.

[@MrHudson2212]

Subangelis Gaming FFG uses the swiss tournament system for all their officially endorsed events and just due to how this system works after just one or two rounds you will be paired up with people of similar skill. Of course during your first tournaments you WILL finish lower, but eventually this goes away.

[@ClkwrkDragonfly]

The reason X-Wing is on this list is one of the two main reasons I didn't play it in the first place. Keeping up with expansions and watching the old stuff be rendered nearly obsolete by them is just far too expensive. The other is the fact that an overlarge number of players out there are just pulling lists/builds down from the internet and playing them to a set of instructions written by whoever came up with the build in the first place. That's why I quit playing CCGs, most wargames, and PVP in MMOs.

[@noreasternbrewmaster8705]

Once Jay Little left the game definitely took on a more tournament style LCG/CCG feel. Too bad, the early game design was epic.

[@JJ_TheGreat]

18:26 As Edward Uhler of Heavy Cardboard says, "Plan better". It really is not that difficult to avoid going bankrupt in Age Of Steam, as long as you are thinking out what you want to do and how much it will cost. If you are able to survive the first few turns, after that you should be fine. The only reasons why you might have to go watch TV instead of staying in the game is because you mis-anticipate some thing (s) that could happen in the game which are beyond your own control - but you are at the mercy of your opponents - for example, if someone blocks you on the map (since it is a very interactive game).

[@dapamico1]

This was fun to watch; thanks! I just noticed that at some point you took the leaves off the table. I'm curious what went on there...

[@ralelunar]

TI4. I went to a teach-and-play and it was still an overwhelming experience. I'd rather play a few games in the time it takes to play one match of TI4.

[@mattvucu6706]

Great video guys! I am curious to know if any of you would play Vlaada's Mage Knight Board game again (this would be my personal #1). It is an amazing game that packs in tons of great mechanics; dice drafting, deck building, world exploration, etc. I personally feel that it packs too much into a single game, and the resulting rules complexity is too steep a step for me to re-learn just for a one-off 3 hour gaming experience. I'll just play dice masters to cover the drafting and deck building , and rinse it down with Return of the Heroes for world exploration. Shout out to Tom and Sam; I hope that I one day play Overpower again!

[@ManFromTheFizz]

That and the components are (no offense) complete ass compared to what's on the market, aka Gloomhaven, Mechs vs Minions, Twilight Imperium, etc. Also has alot of poorly explained/implemented/needlessly confusing mechanics that would have made the game better without. (Such as resistances and how they work, passive armor, what allies can do, how summoning units attack, how some of the scenarios work).

[@JosephFlemming]

Chang Cheng looks cool but we weren't a huge fan of some of the wonky area control aspects... it was a middle of the road game for me and my room is too small for those!

[@JJ_TheGreat]

34:05 Well Tom, What do you think of Brass: Birmingham? Does it change enough for you by making things more open and easy-going (i.e., with the addition of beer)?

[@Creshex8]

I not only think Brass is a masterpiece, it’s also unique and far ahead of its time. When board games were just starting to produce these elegant and refined systems of balance, the fact Brass was made at the time long before this is incredible. It’s a good decade ahead of its time.

[@ItsADream-ChickenNuggetSupreme]

What a prescient comment! Kudos to you, goodperson!

[@PnzrNorm]

I have to counter-argue Tom's choice of Sid Meier's Civ being preferred on the computer. I personally prefer playing it multiplayer as a board game because there aren't connection issues (which have become so much more numerous to the point that games can't be completed in Civ 6), and I'm able to complete a full game of Civilization in a single day.

[@Finchspielberg]

Doomtown Reloaded, while not as complex as Netrunner had the same problem. Everyone was obsessed over getting every release, and I just wanted to make a few perfect decks to play with friends. Anytime I asked for help in building a deck, the answer was bascially buy everything and use a few cards from each pack.

[@alyssinwilliams4570]

You want a long game? Try 15 players Civilizaiton: The Expansion Project. we used to set aside a weekend (fri-sun) for that

[@antonyc2307]

Sam was on fire!!! Great video, guys!

[@ClockFink]

Gloomhaven... the "Here's hundreds of hours of play in one box!" thing was awesome at the time, but now other developers keep making games like that, and there's only so much time in the day! My social group got about halfway through the modules, but there's so many other things out there on our "to play" list, it just no longer feels like it makes sense to spend yet more time on Gloomhaven... While not as fresh as it used to be, it's not really that it go stale, just we all agree we'd prefer to spend time on something newer. While I can sort of imagine being like "Hey, know what was fun? Gloomhaven. I miss that" some day, I can't imagine ACTUALLY busting it out and playing a module knowing we aren't actually getting back into it, and I definitely don't see us saying "Let's go back to routinely playing Gloomhaven. Great game, but probably dead to me.

[@Kajotex]

It pains me to hear your decisions on Netrunner. I see the reasoning, and that is also why I don't play in actual tournaments and somesuch, but seeing this great game left by the wayside because one guy was a bad sport... I am usually the teacher of netrunner, which I do super gladly. I have a few decks prepared, at least one for each faction. And they are all about equal strength, some have advantages over others, some have disadvantages. I use those to play with people usually. I have fun playing the mindgame while they start to learn the game. I have stopped recently with buying datapacks because i stopped once and now it really expensive getting back. Even got a good freind who played the original Netrunner with me before, online. We go at it with my decks from time to time.

[@hectorgodinez]

Netrunner is bad for casual players because it's a lot like chess; the better player will win the vast majority of the time. It creates this top heavy experience where the good competitive players will club anyone trying to learn the game. The Netrunner community is a get good or get out culture.

[@jonathanyoon8835]

+hectorgodinez Just started playing the game 2 weeks ago. Within the first week I went to a tournament. Everyone was patient with me and also gave me tips as we played. I ended up within the bottom tier but I still had fun. Maybe it's because I told them in advance what to expect but I haven't met a single negative person yet and I've gone to 2 tournaments so far... or maybe it's because we're Canadian. haha

[@gurtana]

Would like to know Tom's thoughts at GenCon when Eric Lang announced his next game called Rising Sun is heavily influenced by Diplomacy and whether Tom was hugely disappointed by that!

[@ComodinZero]

Was the card Jackson Howard? On the Netrunner thing? Hahaha, it's totally needed on most corp decks.

[@mrbrianparker]

Aha! Called Sam's number 1. Interesting thing is I was just thinking about getting it. I'm also a fan of Memoir 44 but I'm fond of the ancient/classical period and I don't care about blocks or minis. I'll take another look at the PDF rules and decide in the near future. I suspect I'll get Ancients even though I usually agree with Sam.

[@dannyrasmussen4988]

Did you get it? It's the best 2-player game that I have played. I have been through all the expansions and scenarios. If you like Memoir 44 and just want something a little extra. C&C Ancients is the right game for you.

[@alxgonzalez4038]

There is a card version of Kingsport Festival that is supposed to be out this year, maybe that'll get you to revisit the game Zee.

[@willsobel2187]

I'd be interested to hear why you feel the way you do about Netrunner (which I agree with), but not Dice Masters. As a collectible/constructible game with a tournament scene, doesn't Dice Masters check off all the same boxes that you dislike about Netrunner (minus having two names for everything)?

[@padraigb580]

but the dice, the dice...

[@Steve-L]

The must have found more casual players.

[@SethalaTheGamer]

I think a bit key to keeping CCG-type games from getting stale is to have a lot of variety and a lot of decision making during the actual game. I'm not familiar enough with Netrunner to say for sure about it, but I know most of the time with Magic, I'm not making very many real decisions during a game that I haven't already planned out in advance when building the deck. On the other hand, with Dicemasters having the deckbuilding-ish element (and the element of some cards being open for both players to pick from), there's a lot more decisions that come into play when playing the game that you don't necessarily script out beforehand.

[@hectorgodinez]

Netrunner is mostly skill over luck. In a skill game, the better player will always win. It would be hard to find someone of equal lower skill level to play Netrunner with.

[@VictorTamietti]

I recently played Arkham Horror with a new set of rules.. and it was frantic. never thought I would play a 3hour game of Arkham followed by a 2 hour game of it. (basically, a portal per investigator following just the portal and clue lines and following the full card of the first player, Portals take two hits on the same location to open, in this rules there are rifts and different ways of dealing with a rift and a portal - it takes 1-2 turns to close a rift, 2-3 to close a portal... it means a LOT happening all the time.)

[@dorpth]

Twilight Struggle. I enjoyed it. I can appreciate the design. But after a bunch of games, the luck factor just plays too large of a part to invest the 3 hours (and stress!) anymore. The first turn card draw, the first coup, war events, Quagmire/Bear Trap, all those are huge swings that come down to a single die roll and it's just not fun when bad luck with one of those single rolls sends you into a death spiral that costs you the game.

[@jays2376]

I suppose I'm that rare player. I've got a friend that we occassionally play Android Netrunner, but just with the base decks it came with.

[@onlinegametime]

a Great game i like to play is my friends game he made 2014. its a great game but my only problem to it is how long it takes to set up/clean up and playing can take 3-5 hours +1-2 more hours if you go after the elite bosses.

[@johnr8095]

Wasn't Chang Cheng released by Zman? Maybe it was only distributed by them, but I'm pretty sure Z Man had something to do with Chang Cheng in America.

[@landmarkforum3652]

Agricola and Power Grid for me, for similar reasons. I respect both as classic, intelligent designs, and at the same time I'm done with them. Neither has enough variability for me , even with new cards or a different map, both feel calculable in a way that's similar in each play. Also I find the theme of both games uninspiring and the visuals drab.

[@mleugim1978]

Sam, "Caravelas" is about the Portuguese discoveries, not about Spain. The game starts in Lisbon (Portugal), not in Spain.

[@Osborne4Life]

Why would you guys ever want to get rid of games? Is it a space thing? I would want to build my collection.

[@nerzenjaeger]

Because you don't like them anymore. Collecting games for the sake of it is a luxury in space and money not everyone can afford.

[@andymesa3307]

I get rid of games that don't get played. What's the point of owning games that never get played?

[@shawnfleury1295]

Space is the main reason why I would dump a game. I only have so many shelves and unless I want to start stacking games on the floor, I can only store so many. Also, it's possible that you purchase a new game that fills a niche better than one you already have. For example, I own Letters from Whitechapel and then I go out and purchase Fury of Dracula. Apart from theme, the games are very similar in mechanics. If I enjoy the mechanics and theme of FoD more than LfW, is there really a need for me to keep Letters? What are the chances that, if I'm looking to play a hidden movement game, I'll pull out Letters over Fury? If I find I'm constantly pulling Fury off the shelf over Letters, there really is no need for me to keep Letters.

[@robbert-janmerk6783]

I would say it's mostly a space issue. Remember that they have 500+ games in their collection already, taking a wall of storage space. Tom has also said multiple times that he isn't into collecting games: if he isn't going to play a game anymore, he sees no point owning it.

[@Diggum13]

I dont even have too many games in my collection but like other people said, if its not gonna hit the table anymore there's no point in keeping it.

[@Instinctive]

Great episode, thanks! Catan is on my list, the Candyland of Euros. The strategy to randomness ratio is very low, and often first or last place is determined with a long long way to go. And Cities and Knights gives you even more time to wait for the pre-determined partial outcome!

[@iiamrand5129]

Love these thank you 😃 in my opinion best you tube channel at moment

[@krang65]

Catan is a good game. BUT i will never play it again due to being walled off game after game after turn 2 or 3 and being stuck at the table with nothing to do for an hour.. bad mechanics .....

[@ClockFink]

My issue with all CCGs but particularly Netrunner is I have this threshold of complexity with deck building, where the more complicated building a good deck is, the more I like it, up to a certain point where if becomes SO much work, it starts feeling like a chore... This moment is really easy to catch, it's when a new set drops and instead of being excited to build new casual decks, I go "Sh*t, now I have to update all my competitive decks". Netrunner is so complex it was deeply satisfying to me when it came out, but I've never had my interest in a card game run it's course so fast... I was basically done by the second large expansion.

[@sauce773]

" hey Tom what are you doing for the next 3 days " took me out 😂😂😂

[@johnrochester1419]

Why does Zee always hold me in such suspense before he announces the game? :)

[@SILVERF0X13]

I miss netrunner. I used to live in Tulsa and got to play at Covenant games, but when I got out of college and moved back home there was just nobody to play anymore and my collection is just sitting in a closet.

[@SILVERF0X13]

Also, I'm sorry someone was trying to make you powergame netrunner. Back when I played, a lot of people were crazy into it and wanted to optimize decks, but in my group nobody looked down on anyone. I usually made goofy decks or themed decks rather than super fantastic ones and just had fun seeing what people did to deal with my weird strategy and it was a blast. I've seen that kind of power gaming in MTG a lot though so I know the kind of person you are talking about.

[@Defenderator]

X-Wing Miniatures: Check out the fan made coop variant Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. AI enemy ships, plays and scales REALLY well for 1-6 players. REALLY got me back into the game.

[@Drzodiacus]

Sam got something wrong. In Caravelas it is Portugal that is the focus of the game, not Spain. We are quite proud of our history and Gil D'Orey makes most of his games in a way that Portugal is always part of it.

[@rjtopper68]

I agree with you guys on how it's difficult to play against people who dedicate a large amount of time to a game. I stopped playing Magic the Gathering because people were creating these decks that were basically destroying me in a few turns and also they got frustrated when it didn't work right. Now, I have no problem if they want to grab to brand new Core Decks out of the box and play, but they won't play that way because it's not "their deck". It's not that I don't like the games, I just can't dedicate the same amount of time that they can.

[@rjtopper68]

The other kicker about the people that are more dedicated is that I've played against some that try to get things past you hoping you, either A) don't know about the rule, or B) don't catch it. During an X-Wing event, I had someone watching my match and during my opponents turn he stepped in with "hey, that's not how that weapon is played". Thankfully we just had a nice conversation about the ruling on the card with the event sponsor and went about our match peacefully.

[@raymyers700]

The main draw with MTG is crafting that perfect deck to win so I see why they do it. But for the life of me, I don't understand the lack of empathy that many players have toward new players. It's not hard to crush a newbie. I always tried to help new players get better and put myself at a disadvantage so I could challenge myself at the same time. It's like arm wrestling 5 year olds : is there any way for you to lose? So why bother?!?! It's not a real victory.

[@thatpatrickguy3446]

Hmmm... I kind of agree with Diplomacy since, like Tom said, I want to keep my friends. It is a great game, but it can end up in physical battles. Okay, that was when some guys I knew were playing it as a drinking game, but still. I can absolutely see it as a great teaching game too. I could potentially see using it is an object lesson and teaching tool, but otherwise? Nah. I have the original starter deck set for the first incarnation of Netrunner, and I enjoy that (though I haven't played it since the 90s) because all it was was one of each of the decks and zero additional anything. In the same vein I enjoyed 7th Sea the CCG and Decipher's Star Wars CCG until the guys I played with were ramping up their collections and I wasn't. They had massive killer decks and I still was using basic starters and I was getting hammered every game. No fun any more. I have owned Sid Meier's Civilization for years, broke it open, looked at it, oohed and aahed over the components and have never played it. If I want Civ, I'll sit at the computer. If I want to play Civ against my friends, we'll have a hot seat game and mock each other when it's not our turn. I need to go ahead and just sell Sid Meier's Civilization because I'll never take it to the table. Railroad Tycoon also is in the "If I want to play this I'll play it on my computer" list of games. Because they were mentioned, the board-and-chit games are an interesting bunch from the old old school days of Avalon Hill. I own a copy of Avalon Hill's Gettysburg that was my dad's when he was in college in the 60's. It is a really cool looking game. Dad never finished a game of it when he was young and had more free time, and I've never even started one. As much as I love the concept and think that Gettysburg is a great historical game, I will likely never play it. There are and have been board-and-chit games that I have loved and still play (War at Sea is one of those) or that I have acquired with the intent to play but haven't had time or opportunity to yet (Kingmaker is my most recent acquisition in that category). But there are a wide variety of great board-and-chit games that I played once, enjoyed the game, and never really had the urge to play again. Looking at you Advanced Squad Leader. But the biggest and baddest game that I loved to play and used to play all night at times, but will likely never play again (and I need to sell off my copy) is Cosmic Encounter. I have some great memories of that game, and had a lot of good times playing that game, but I just really don't care if I never play it again.

[@Majdi.J]

Tom said there may be a price at which he would play Diplomacy. How about making it a stretch goal in the kickstarter next year?

[@MatroidX]

Does Android Netrunner have a handicap system? I still haven't played my copy (way too late to the party, I know), and am hoping there's some kind of equalizer between players of different skill levels. Like in Go :)

[@MatroidX]

And as for the "why" I might not play a game I really enjoyed again (or at least much much less)... - Replaced by something better (e.g. for me that was chess --> Go; played former for a decade, latter for now 15-20 years with only a few games of chess interspersed) - Just played it so many times that I feel it's going to be the same / nothing more to explore (at least with the same players). TtR and Wizard are starting to feel like that to me (usually play with spouse and family, and we know each other's style too well).

[@roseability86]

Tom, maybe if you had played Britannia several times you *would* know which groups of people were in Britain at the same time (j/k). That sounds cool though... one of the issues I have with historical computer games is that they DO deviate from history, because I wanted to use them to learn in an engaging way. Perhaps this board game is something I should consider.

[@wroot_lt]

One. One? One! :D Also Matt Damon joke.. :D And the gungan talking about Ticket to Ride not being a train game just killed me :'D

[@frruy3892]

Have you ever played chess against a Grandmaster who plays chess for a living? I have. I never stood a chance of course, but the GM had the decency to let me play my game; only after the game (of which he had remembered every single move) he taught me a bit about what he had seen and how I could have played better. It was a fantastic experience that made my love of chess greater, not smaller. I am sorry to hear that one person spoiled Netrunner for you guys, but I fail to see why that should be the case. I have taught the game to a few friends, and we play it occasionally. We only use the core deck and don't care about the expansions: the core deck already makes for a very rich and deep game. I am sure people who are really into Netrunner would say we are missing out, but I would also hope they would have the decency to let us play, and may be only afterwards show us something of how rich and deep it is at their level. And if they really love the game, they might even enjoy the experience of going back to playing with the core deck just for once as well. To put it differently: I am sure Kobe Bryant would find my lack of basketball skills painful to watch and he would be right about that. But why should that stop me and my friends from playing and enjoying ourselves?

[@MrRadialdrift]

Zee is right about Battlestar, I like it but there is such a huge gap between big moments. 3 or 4 hours for only a handful of exciting moments makes it a bit flat overall.

[@PeakYourInterest]

Magic: The Gathering I used to play this game A LOT. even landed top 8 at a Pro-Your Qualifier once. But that game is long gone for me. They just pump expansion after expansion out and it's hard to keep up. And even to just play casually, I'd have to invest in the starter decks and I'd rather put that money towards games that a wider variety of people can enjoy. Thanks for another great list guys!

[@KrzysztofWitta]

Dice Tower guys - you could play Netrunner among yourselves, you know :)

[@philippenachtergal6077]

I like Brass but it sure is one of those games where you don't want to play with experts if you aren't one. There are lots of games in that category though both with huge classics where there are lots of experts and with more niche games. Not that I don't put in there all the game where experts are a bit too likely too win, just the ones where that expertise feels heavy.

[@RokutaOfEn]

Just a quick question, what type of table do you have now?

[@eugenb.8448]

He has a review up. He has one from this manufacturer: www.rathskellers.com/. Here's his table review: www.dicetower.com/game-video/rathskellers-councilor-table-review-tom-vasel. Enjoy.

[@legophreak]

Anyone know what happened to the Geek Chic table he had?

[@shawnfleury1295]

I believe he said that Sam has it now.

[@Steve-L]

Yes Sam has it.

[@RaduStanculescu]

Tom, you were saying there are a lot of games like BSG. Could you list a few? I've played Shadows over Camelot, Homeland is on my to-play list, but I don't really know many others.

[@Orion3T]

Dead of Winter

[@BuzzKirill3D]

I think I may never play Descent 2nd ed after trying it once with friends... I was going in with great expectations but the experience was just so underwhelming and frustrating

[@kalleucastro173]

Tom can you pass the name of the GO's Korean Channel?

[@thedicetower]

Don't know it, just saw it when flipping through the channels.

[@bloodrunsclear]

Oh man, the TI3 play through will be AMAZING Great list!

[@docsnyder1569]

Have they ever mentioned, when they will do the TI3 play through? I can't wait for it...

[@steveweshinskey2117]

Tom mentioned,in mondays Q&A IIRC, he will be talking to one of the players this week so might be able to confirm a time by the weekend. He thinks probably sometime in September.

[@Straddllw]

+Steve Weshinskey Sam and Jason better be in this.

[@docsnyder1569]

Steve Weshinskey Cool, thank you!

[@steveweshinskey2117]

Straddllw Sam of course, I don't know about Jason but I doubt it. I believe its going to be a 4 player game, Tom,Sam,Zee and the 4th player Tom inferred would be a member of their gaming group that usually isn't on the show. But I really have no idea, I wouldn't think Tom would say 'I need to talk to the other player' rather than 'I need to talk to Jason'. Now if its a 5 player game probably Jason as well.

[@briancherry8088]

Chang Cheng is a game I tried to play... and we must have screwed something up because we ran out of wall and couldnt finish. Never played again. thank goodness it was only $7

[@nathanielchambers8974]

Oh man I have Witchcraft. Probably gonna sell it, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Great game, just not quite able to make the cut. Was interested in the 2nd edition they were working on but pretty sure it got cancelled.

[@mattbradley3546]

Completely agree on Netrunner. I enjoy playing games casually, but some games simply have no casual players. It's not the game's fault, and it doesn't make the game "bad".

[@booboosicko]

GoT board game, loved it, my strategy never changed and I only played for the alliance and amazing back stab ... so I am too one sided in how I play

[@roleplayexperience5014]

Caravelas: The game theme is the Portuguese Discoveries in the 15th and 16th century, and their contribution to Portuguese wealth, symbolized in the Jerónimos Monastery. It is an historic fact that the spices trade, brought by the Caravelles, had to pay a tax of 5% in Lisbon, and this tax was used to pay for the monastery construction.