Miami Dice 200C: SeaFall - Third Impressions

[@pizzabutterjellytime]

Having just started our 4 player campaign (2 heavy gamers, 1 light gamer, and 1 brand new gamer), 3/4 of us loved it (the new gamer was still a bit confused over things in general, like "why do I only get 2 of 3 guild actions?") We were so excited from our Tuesday session we're trying to plan a Thursday session. I know this game isn't really your guys' style, but I think its going to have a lot of fans.

[@brackenrawlings]

Zee's shirt game is on point in this video. 5000 candles in the wind!

[@rinaldorinaldini7456]

Seems that this is the game of expectations and such a pity that they won't always come to life or do that too slowly. SUSD did a review about it, but they didn't finished the whole game because of a similar issues. Hopefully it would be getting better in the end and there will be more things to enjoy. Good work with impressions guys.

[@pasqualecirone9755]

I'm eager to see further down the rabbit hole. I'm probably the only person that wants to be spoiled for this game. I've decided that this game would be too heavy for me to play through but I so want the story that's presented.

[@philz6164]

Go watch SU&SD's review of the game. At the end he says that you should buy the game and read through all the story and open all the boxes to see what the game has to offer without playing it, then close it up and sell the opened/unused copy to someone that wants to play it.

[@Jonasonweb]

Man, it is such a pain to stop the video at 10min to not get spoilered ... :D

[@cedspectre1]

The wave of hype this game is/was riding on is so high, but having played it (and quit on a group vote 4-0 to shelve it) I was left feeling extremely underwhelmed and was not alone. Will it ever get played again? possibly, however I personally think that it is a small chance.

[@xfoolsgoldx]

This game seems like hard work😉

[@jd5iron]

I'm so glad I watched the spoilers. I'm not sure I'll ever get anyone in my group to play this. But it's nice to know what's out there.

[@levisiebens]

12-18 hours in for them and all I can think about is how far you could get in an RPG in the same amount of time.

[@wroot_lt]

Nice insertion of Hugh Kares by Sam :D

[@cthulwho8197]

So at the start Tom decided to pursue certain goals whilst Sam went another way. Tom has not only scored more poi than Sam but also found himself in a more advantage position after the most recent box. So if Tom ends up winning overall it's all down to a decision made in turn 2 or 3?

[@BogartFace]

Add to that the swingy dice rolls and the reset mechanic after the game ends and you have the perfect recipe for frustration.

[@SamHealey6]

Actually, I'm still in the lead in total points, but Tom is literally right behind me (by one or two points, I think). But he is definitely set up (currently) to have a easier go now.

[@Storky84]

Hype train arrived to the station... And it's not even a train but a handcar.

[@timstackii]

Btw, if you have opened box 3 and 4 but not 5 you can goto 17:20, but stop there as I did as I think they were about to mention stuff in box 5

[@avajarvis5639]

Every time you guys review this game again, it gets worse. I can't even think of a single game group I've ever been involved in that would not quit angrily (maybe resignedly in one case) around game 3.

[@TyrionXavier]

I am so very glad I passed on this game. It seems like a chore to get to the good parts.

[@cameronknotek-black2833]

THIS GAME IS FOR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE THIS GAME (SERIOUSLY)... 😀😌👌

[@jasonperez5732]

We allow you to quit this game if you like. It feels like the Legacy thing is forcing you to keep playing.

[@ScowlieMeerkat]

The Legacy games are the "gamification" of board gaming. Which really is as ridiculous as it sounds.

[@Jeff321]

I wish you gave some ratings or indication of whether or not the game is getting better in the pre-spoiler section.

[@Straddllw]

Tom you and your crazy hats.

[@aldovr13]

Kinda hard to do, but how a bout a spoiler live session on this to hear the opinion of the people?? and it can be for another legacy style games like time stories

[@rontalkstabletop]

I suppose you have to play a Legacy game through to give a full review, but these reviews are not exciting me at all.

[@KristoVaher]

This is like saying you have to watch the whole season(s) of television series in order to give an opinion. And you really don't. If the show is not good per episode, it's not good overall.

[@ashleepradella4912]

:( I was super excited about this game but I'm really starting to think it's a miss for me. A big reason is that I can't see my group playing a 3 hour game that often. Also I'm not really a fan of the heavy euro.

[@cthulwho8197]

Does the game still work if nobody bothers with the buying and selling side of the game?

[@clarencelee4135]

is there going to be a 4th impression?

[@mikaelbrresen983]

Someone should make a space version...maybe set in twilight imperium or the fading suns univers...

[@TheMrE]

Is there a spoiler free conclusion? What's a safe time stamp to go to for their rating so far?

[@TapCat]

By the time they got to ratings it was full spoiler territory. But, FYI, Zee gave it a 6.5, Sam a 6 and Tom a 7. All of them had major issues with the length and heavy euro feel. It doesn't help that all of your work on the euro-gaming front can be overwhelmed by the results of a few die rolls. That's the extremely summarized spoiler-free version.

[@LCCWPresents]

this is only up to game 6 if I am correct

[@MoriMemento117]

I'd play this game... I just don't know if I could spend money on it. I also feel like it's hard to find people who like Euros enough to give it a shot with me. Seafall is like anti-Scythe. It marries Euro and American game design as Scythe did, but instead of elegance and theme, it marries punishing gameplay with persistence. Not so appealing. Still, there's no question Seafall is a milestone in game design. Even more than 504. I'm glad it exists even if I doubt I'll ever buy it.

[@zmann4444]

Our group is exactly where you guys are, we just finished game 6. Are you guys actually having fun? Does the thought of playing the game 8+ more times with only 1 more box to open upset you?

[@elmotoja]

I'm not sure whether they will answer your questions, however, I am interested in your (your group's) own experience and answers to your questions. at the same time I also have another one - is it possible to "speed up" the legacy experience - I don't meen the game session but the rate at which fun stuff comes into each game - so it wouldn't be such a slow build up, but an interesting game from game one.

[@avajarvis5639]

+Paweł Stelmach see the comments on SU&SD website (rather than the YT comments) and the Polygon review. The prologue can't be cut out because it impacts the campaign. It sounds like a major rehaul is needed to speed up the game-and with a min player count of 3, can't speed up the game by going two player either.

[@davekoehnlein4575]

Haha nice Wayne's World reference Sam :)

[@SamHealey6]

YES!!!...somebody got it!! Party on, David!

[@LCCWPresents]

I almost won a game, until the explorer took on a temple god and gained 9 victory points in one turn and ended the round, where I was one more colony away from my first victory and 4th colony...

[@Johnny-qg3ll]

Did Tome mention how many players they are playing with? Is it just the 3 of them?

[@philz6164]

I think they are playing with 4 but not sure who that person is.

[@Informal_Geek]

Is there a game today, based purely on one mechanism, that's not a gateway, and is fun?

[@Finn-un5ho]

would you guys play this game if you didn't have to for the review

[@dreadknot69]

In the last video they admitted that they would've packed it in long ago.

[@Finn-un5ho]

not a game for me

[@cameronknotek-black2833]

****VAGUE SPOILERS BELOW**** . . . . . . . . It seems the first 3 boxes add to the mechanics and theme of the game while the last 3 add to the story more...

[@timstackii]

Tom Vasel: "... Seafall is 50% buy and sell goods ..." ... After our 6 games, we have had maybe 10-20% (if that) buy and sell goods. (even less with colonies. Last game the only goods used were for a colony ... zero were bought and resold to a market)

[@cameronknotek-black2833]

Every campaign plays differently depending on the players 😜

[@Andromedax01]

Heyyy you didnt give your ratings before going to spoilers... Sounds like you like the game marginally more but... I'm not sure, with that time issue.

[@avajarvis5639]

No rating above a 7, no rating below a 6. Tom mentions some parts of the game are very very awesome (8, 9 rating) and some are... less so (5 rating) for him.

[@Andromedax01]

Thanks a lot !

[@DPDLC]

He said one part was a 2.

[@lordxmugen]

Was hoping for a Merchants and Maruaders: Legacy type game and......its not. so i guess its not for me either.

[@davek2906]

Just say it: This game is not good.

[@philz6164]

Well I have this game coming on pre-order. So today I have notified my friends that when it arrives, it will be staying in its plastic wrap and stored away forever, never to be played.

[@Fergit_]

Seems like legacy may only work on a game people already like.

[@avajarvis5639]

I think the problem is that Seafall was designed from the bottom up and not based on an existing game with solid rules. It means that the designers here are probably good at designing legacy campaigns, but not so great at actual game design. Without a good base game, a legacy campaign doesn't stand a chance.

[@cursivecurses]

It's also super hard to design twists that feel clever if players don't already have a frame of reference.

[@philz6164]

True, with Pandemic or Risk, people had enough experience to know what their choices would likely result in. With a new game, nobody knows if (insert a mechanic.. ie pillaging) is a good end game strategy and therefore you could find yourself with 40+ hours of gaming for nothing. This is fine if you play a game to find out your strategy is bad, but after 2 hours you can play again and try something new.

[@mikaelbrresen983]

So this game is trading in the mediterrenean legacy(tm)?;)..

[@ansonvergens2896]

You all seem so authentically boooored! Sea has really fallen...

[@denu22]

I watched most of these three videos concerning Sea Fall, don't know if I want to watch a forth. I have to give you guys credit for sticking with what appears to be an over stuffed turkey. Honestly the apparent boredom of this game is seeping through and dripping out all over the place.

[@A.L.E.X.42]

I wonder when FFG's Cthulhu legacy game will show up

[@janpawedwa4590]

Soon, I hope :D

[@BogartFace]

You'd be out of playable characters after a couple of games, if you had to remove permanently the dead or insane investigators.

[@quasistellar]

Cthulhu seems like the perfect setting for a legacy game, what with people going insane.

[@eugenb.8448]

This has been truly brutal to watch. The game was very hyped and I think many of us read a lot of the pre-release hype the past 2 or 3 years hoping for a Pandemic Legacy type of experience. But you can see on their faces they are just not enjoying the game and are, in fact, hating the fact it is simply dragging on. I think the worst comment is the "45 minutes of fun in 3 hours of gameplay". Ugh. I also wonder if they're giving it better ratings because of who the designer is. Are they simply giving him leeway courtesy of Risk Legacy and Pandemic Legacy and hoping it'll get better. If it were a game by a new designer would they have tossed in the towel by now and just said: "This ain't worth it."? Utterly painful to watch. And when you throw in other reviews like SU&SD you start to wonder who actually play tested this thing because all the complaints are the same about it being slow, tedious, the scoring is broken, and the rules are seriously borked. Then you throw in the reset mechanism which doesn't make sense and appears to aggravate the players and, again, I wonder who play tested this? I still have this on pre-order. I'm a sucker for punishment and will give it a go with our gaming group. But my fear is we'll play a game or two then put it aside for a while, maybe a long while and not miss it much if at all. Totally the opposite of Pandemic Legacy where you wanted to binge play it. Sigh.

[@avajarvis5639]

I think this is a below average base game to be honest. Extremely forgettable, and being forced to replay it with variations that don't improve it repeatedly looks to be breeding resentment. I thought I recalled all the playtesting reports as being unanimously positive-did something break at the playtesting process? Did perhaps people only play single sessions of exciting campaign points? "Here's your setup, read the rules for the sixth box, away you go"? Seems broken if so.

[@eugenb.8448]

I seem to remember some difficulties but that everyone who played at the various cons going nuts over it, for sure. But the reviews are at best lukewarm. And I think that everyone so wanted this to work and be successful maybe it came out half baked. If so, a total pity. I found SU&SD's review the best one so far. They definitely dislike it and the only thing saving it from a savage review is the designer's reputation.

[@philz6164]

SU&SD didn't say they disliked it, I recall Quinn saying that they just would rather play anyone of the great games they have on their shelf over spending the time to learn more of what this game has to offer. I interpreted this as the game has you wanting to know what's next, but it's a painful 2+ hours each time to find out and sometimes what you find isn't that exciting. My copy is still wrapped and I won't be playing it based on SU&SD's thoughts because my friends and I feel the same way about the value of our time.

[@RC1207Sev]

Thanks. Just cancelled my preorder

[@homelessjoe]

Thanks boys. This puppy is just not for me.

Sounds less awesome every video :(

[@michaelmontalto]

The reviews of this game by Tom, Zee and Sam literally made me stop my pre-purchase and get a full refund. What a total let down. -mM

[@Haladras]

What a bomb.

[@LORDJAVI131]

It seems that the legacy mech. works best with ameritrash games rather than Euros...Mabey?

[@cursivecurses]

Pandemic isn't really Ameritrash... and it works quite well there

[@wroot_lt]

Oh, illuminati stuff sounds cool. In the first video i have commented, that it would be great if all the usual colonialism stuff would flip over to some aliens or other thing. Something is happening it seems :)

[@brianlelas172]

Nobody likes this game. All the reviews I've seen have been very similar, saying it's lots of time and effort with little payoff. It's a pity, the concept was so cool. I'm unlikely to invest the little time I have in this after such universally "meh" reviews.

[@denu22]

Gee

[@BradfordStokes]

So wished I didn't order this game

[@orionsyndrome]

You should all consider the possibility that this game is trying to reenact certain historical conditions that characterize colonial behavior. There weren't any historical references for befriending the native people or playing nice with them. There WERE however pressures to heavily exploit them or abandon the colonies altogether. There WERE economic issues that directly led to organized country-backed piracy in open seas etc. So you should all invest some time in learning how colonialism embraces all of the negativity that goes along with it. Colonialism is not about having colonies, it's about being greedy and pushing things forward. It's more of a push your luck thing than a viable self-sustaining strategy. And this game depicts this scenario, it would seem, perfectly. Sadly, natives always end up being collateral. There is no win scenario for them, except for some sort of magical independence, but that was rarely the case. If you don't like the vibe of the game, well bad for you, but it is about the actual COLONIALISM, and not about your IDEA OF COLONIALISM. This game tries to teach you something, and that's that having more doesn't equate to having it easy. I haven't played it, but that's my two cents.

[@koalabrownie]

Done with your soapbox and trying to tell them how a game you've never played is trying to teach them something? No one disputes that Imperialism/Colonialism can have adverse affects on a native population, I think the problem they had with the game is that effects are universally negative which frankly I don't think is reflective of reality. Were that the case, conditions for the native populations in differnet countries would be universally worse however countries of post-colonial legacy vary wildly in how advanced and independent they are today.

[@silentdante]

I'm sorry, which colonization in history was a good thing for natives? yep, none, so yeah, maybe it IS bad, maybe not for the ones colonizing, but for natives, America, Africa, Australia.... etc it hasn't been great for sure. it sounds like the game might be a little to realistic in some ways, where it is saying hey colonization is pretty bad, which come on, it is, and once you piss off enough people things don't go your way. maybe not great for a game, but sure reflects reality a bit.

[@cthulwho8197]

I don't think their complaint is that it isn't a bad thing, rather that the point is hammered home so heavily time and time again. And, as Tom says, the game doesn't give you any choice other than to be horrible to the natives. The options available are "kill them, subjugate them or steal from them?". It's like a monopoly game preaching capitalism is a bad thing whilst you try to earn the most money to win it. 😄

[@Haladras]

Yes, colonialism is bad, but this game swings fists of ham.

[@ScowlieMeerkat]

No, we beneficiaries of wholesale theft and subjugation don't appreciate being reminded of the downsides again and again. There's TWO sides to every story, you know! Nobody ever talks about the BENEFITS of technologically advanced overlords coming into your homelands, overriding your laws and customs, and extracting wealth and resources with no regard for your well being at all? I'm just so sick of all this bias!

[@Haladras]

It's not bias, it's a matter of texture and repetition. Schindler's List says, "Nazis are bad," but it finds fresh ways to say it. Sermons are okay if you're good at them. Seafall isn't.

[@ScowlieMeerkat]

Sean Weeks It seems to me that this sort of complaint about "ham-fistedness" and repetition is only applied to a certain set of messages. While other, more popular themes are free to clumsily repeat much more often without those same complaints coming up.