TDG: Space Empires 4X

[@joshuawhiting5594]

Just bought this and combat commander europe. Never did I think I would be transitioning from plastic minis to chits. But here I am. This review change my mind thanks Cody

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thank you, sir. Glad I could help. I'll think you'll really enjoy it.

[@mister10x54]

Very well explained, big thanks to you good sir..greets from germany

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thank you, happy help. Years ago I studied in Berlin. I love your beautiful country.

[@jaredquintana6328]

Oh the horror of un-clipped corners!!! THE HORROR!!! :P

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thank you, Colonel Kurtz!

[@jaredquintana6328]

Excellent video BTW.

[@jaredquintana6328]

Have you tried Talon to do the tactical space battles?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Did you watch the video?

[@jaredquintana6328]

Yes, you said it could be but you didn't say you haven't. I will take it that as you say Talon is more Tactical and Space 4x more strategic that you have not integrated them.

[@dillenbeck53531]

Solid review, and it is a good wargame. My heart, however, still belongs to the grandfather of 4X games: Stellar Conquest. Some of the bigger differences? * Fixed game length (44 turns), fixed spectral class star hex map * Random card draws to determine useful planets in orbit around the star (1 or more colonizable planets) * Fewer ship types (colony, scout, fighter, corvette, death star), d6 based combat table of attacking unit type vs defending unit type (no attack order letters) * Movement must be direct path star-to-star, instant upgrade tech (since counters don't have unit designations to differentiate, but people house rule no upgrading automatically - the units have nothing but a picture, a ship type name, and a number representing how many of that ship are stacked together... so Colony 20 is a colony ship that is carrying 20 population to plop off at a new homeworld, while Deathstar 3 is a fleet of 3 Deathstars... or Dreadnaughts, depending on the version you play) * 3 tech tracks (one for ship movement, one for ships and colony defenses - which include missile bases and planetary shields, and one for other stuff like being able move freely in deep space or build factories or colonize barren worlds) * Planets/colonies are mineral rich and boost Industrial Production (IPs) * 70s/80s graphics and production quality (still a mounted board, but two bifold rather than one quadfold board) * Play style changes with player count (more players means more clashing and conflict unless you artificially restrict the board, 2 players means low conflict, and 3 players means someone will most likely get sandwiched and be in trouble unless it is a peaceful game). * ...and the biggest factor is that victory is based on how many Terran and Subterran worlds you control at the end of the game. That last point is a big one. It means Stellar Conquest is a civilization game while Space Empires 4X's "win by killing a foe" is definitely in the wargame genre instead. Wargames aren't my wife's cup of tea, so I'm waiting for the new solo stuff in the next expansion before this gets play. I was disappointed that the scenarios didn't change the victory condition, and I may house rule this someday (after getting some play experience with the system). Still, if you have not yet tried this classic out and aren't scared of a bit of extra book keeping and the notion that players might develop planetary shields to make unassailable colonies, you need to get a used copy (they are surprisingly affordable and available) and give it a try. It does run a bit longer though (maybe up to twice as long, so in TI3 category of play time). Oh, as to the neat combat, have you ever tried 7 Ages? I don't think its diceless combat system would work here, but it is neat. Essentially all units for an empire have two values (players control multiple empires to earn them glory, discarding them when they aren't glorious enough for them any more - anywhere from 2 to 7 empires per player depending on player count). The first value is front-line combat strength, the second value is ranged (back-/support-line) combat strength. Players secretly allocate units 1 to front line, 1 to back line, 1 to front line, 1 to back, etc for 1 to total units available from their "reserves" (units in the battle). Draw a card, add that number, and highest value wins; ties mean both sides are wiped out. A Tactician leader means you survive ties, a Strategy leader means you get to draw 2 cards and choose the value you want to use. Surviving units go to spent units. Once all units are spent, you get a disordered token and put the spent units into your reserves. A unit can retreat once a foe is disordered. For each disordered token, an attacker gets to count extra attack from a unit. Basically, its all about mitigated luck from card draws and committing sufficient troops, and then reading an opponent and knowing when and with how many to attack with. Its an awesome combat system, but horrible for solo play. (Check you Callasmar's - AKA The Lonesome Gamers - videos on this if you are curious to see how it plays. Its my favorite Civ Game, but its hard to find people willing to commit to playing it.) All this said, just because I find the other two games better in some way doesn't mean SE4X is a bad game - its an awesome game that I think most will prefer to the two I mentioned, but my tastes and my wife's play style means the other two are more likely to get to the table. Now to see if I can find anyone who did any play review with the first expansion...

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks, I have not played Stellar Conquest, but that is one I will look into.

[@rolandbruno686]

That was helpful for me. I've had this one on my wish list and while it does sound as good as I expected, I think I won't be adding it to my collection. The war game aspect does appeal to me but I'm trying to limit my inventory. I play TI3 regularly, I have Exodus Event Horizon on the shelf and unplayed and Sandy Petersen is designing a 4X space game as well. I'd like to try this one out for sure but it'll be someone else's copy. Thanks Cody!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

You are welcome, sir. Hope you get the chance to play it.

[@RicksPoker]

I recommend that you use the rule where you have to go back to upgrade your ships. It gives the game a much more gritty feel, and there are more agonizing choices. I also think that it slows down the leader a bit. Space Empires 4X won't hit my table as often as Eclipse, because my non-wargame friends LIKE Eclipse. ;-D Warm regards, Rick.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I don't think the game is as accessible as Eclipse, for sure.

[@drunkengamer1153]

There's a jazz for everyone, Cody. you'll find yours. Now i have to find Space Empires! great review!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Danke!

[@bgm-1961]

I haven't played SE4X yet, but from watching your video, (at 5:28) it appears that the grouping used for combat based upon alpha designation is the same system used by Columbia Games for their block wargames. Except I don't know which came first.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Combat is similar is some ways, but not exactly the same. For instance, I don't believe you can screen units in the block games.

[@daekwankim]

This is one of the best 4x games that go under the radar for so many people due to its bland presentation. So many players are enamored by minis these days.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I don't find it bland. Though it is not too flashy.

[@cafecomescrita]

Oh! I see you finally figured out what was lacking in this game: a good Jazz player! This game is my favorite game of all times. I remember being frightened by the bookeeping years ago but once I tamed this beast fear turned into lifetime love. My collection is almost 500 games now and this one is still the one I like the most. Once you add the expansion there is no going back, it adds so many cool things to the game I can't recommend it enough. It is THAT good. I hope you try it soon. Very good Jazz session by the way (sure, the review in between was nice too).

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thank you, sir. Glad you liked my Jazz!

[@monomundo]

Best review of this game! Thank you :)

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thank you, sir!

[@venrondua]

Have you heard of the variant where you win by destroying the home world of the person on your left (or right)? That way you have one person you are attacking and another person you're defending against and there isn't a ganging up concern.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

venrondua No, I haven't heard of that one. I actually really like that. I may try it if I get a multiplayer game going again.

[@Ruperdepuup]

Sounds like this mechanic would work well with an uneven number of players. It wouldn't work so well with four players: If player 1 is doing great against player 2, then player 2 cannot invest much in his attack on player 3, which means player 3 can spend more resources on his war against player 4, which means player 4 must divert resources away from his war on player 1, who then has an even easier time against player 2. This leads to a snowball where either player 1 or player 3 will win.

[@Downloaded7]

I don't think I'm going to buy this game, but that has to be some of the best box art of all time.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

It's good. I hope you get a chance to play it sometime.

[@Leedguitar2]

This game looks excellent! Yet another game on my "To Buy" list... my wife is not going to be happy.

[@trentaraggi]

Speaking about 4x, how would you compare SE4X with Star Trek Ascendancy?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Where STA is a civilization building game with a wargame component, SE4X is a wargame with a civilization building component. They're both great games, but I'd give the edge to SE4X. I just think it's a more interesting game. Though I am a wargamer.

[@ericcottrell6759]

Excellent review.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thank you, sir!

[@wmarclocher]

Ugh, cardboard counters, I want spaceship miniatures. No, but for the amount of roles the different ship classes play in this game I understand it would be impractical. Two things that I found really supplement the game is the excel spreadsheet you can download from BGG and getting sleds for the counters.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Yeah, I had a buddy print up some sleds for counters for this game. I agree. Thanks!

[@thadmccollom6444]

I dont know if you mentioned it but whats the play time for 2 players once you know what you are doing?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Keyser Soze 2-3 hours.

[@blackdaz3]

First of all Thank you, because i discovered this beautiful game and Talon as you were so strongly recommending them. Just a question: i find difficult sometimes to bring this one to the table because of its lenghts. What variant do you suggest? Auto-update of the ships plus victory condition 2 enemy colonies? mainly we player 2 players. Thanks a lot and good luck with your phd.. is this one of those that you'll bring with you?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I imagine I'll be taking Space Empires with me. That sounds like good victory conditions for a shorter game. As I mentioned in the video, two player is the way to go. Thank you!

[@joelbloch08]

How long is a game for 2 or 3 players?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Usually between two to four hours has been my experience.

[@femmedracula]

Just out of curiosity, did you ever get around to trying Close Encounters or the much newer Replicators for Space Empires 4x?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Bean Álainn I haven’t. :(

[@femmedracula]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer Here's hoping you get the chance. They're good stuff.

[@FreeFragUK]

Apologies if this is answered later in the review (I'm only half way through so will correct if this is addressed) but how is the game as a solitaire game? Would you say it's worth it as a solo experience?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

As I recall I tried to play it solo once, but didn't get through it - not because of the game but because of other things going on at the time. I've talked to people that really like it as a solo experience - it certainly seems to lend itself well to solo play. Wish I could be of more help.

[@FreeFragUK]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer no worries, any feedback is appreciated. To be honest I'm considering more as a result of the game I originally intended to pick up being between print runs.

[@TheHallbjorn]

I just ordered this and glanced through the rulebook on BGG. The big info that seemed to be missing in there was setup instructions, and most importantly, HOW TO WIN. I found it very odd that they would bury the lede like that. Could you explain the victory conditions you are aiming for? Is the system 100% scenario-based or is there a default game mode?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Don’t have the rulebook in front of me. Essentially, in the basic game it’s capture your opponents home world.

[@TheHallbjorn]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer Thanks!

[@wishmeheaven]

It was a must-buy for me if there wasn't pencil and paper need for tracking stats..

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Too bad. Great game and fun mechanic, IMHO.

[@earlofdoncaster5018]

Jazz: Music for people who don't like music.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Ha!

[@jtbergstrom1336]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T LIKE THE UTAH JAZZ ANYMORE?!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

They disappointed me once too often.

[@stormquiver]

does this game have any association with the video game?

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I'm not familiar with the video game, so I can't comment.

[@stormquiver]

The Discriminating Gamer thanks for the quick reply. Game looks really cool.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Hope you get a chance to check it out. It's a great game.

[@slimbo7858]

Yes.

[@douglaspearson1647]

I had o idea you were good at Sax...

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Douglas Pearson You have no idea...

[@douglaspearson1647]

I have no idea and am really, really, really, really, really happy about that really.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Fantastic! Really...

[@douglaspearson1647]

Really really....

[@vyrag0]

If you're looking for a game that's "kooky" I guess this is it.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Indeed!

[@devinmccane8343]

You lost me at "Bookkeeping Phase" lol

[@peterterry7918]

1) what happened to R2-D2?; 2) You really weren't trying to blow your own horn were you? 3) The horn does give you a Clinton-esq sense of appeal!; 4) I always thought you had a family friendly channel, now you are showing sax and and talking chits...

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

It's how I roll, baby!

[@peterterry7918]

Dice, that is...

[@goodlookingcorpse]

Stop saying 'kooky'!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Never!!!

[@rmcdaniel2424]

This game looks a bit outdated , scary and lots of booking games. I dont think it is under rated its just super nitch.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

It’s not any of those. I realize the bookkeeping my be off putting to some, but I’m amazed at how some people who don’t think it looks good end up loving it.

[@spacesergeant101]

Ugh. Fiddly, gamey, block-game done wrong in a setting where the block-game mechanic makes no sense. You can't build more of this ship type. Why, because I have too many? No, because you have them in too many places! What?!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Too each their own.

[@tanmg]

spacesergeant101 a