TDG: Kingmaker

[@gowensbach2998]

The roundest knight at King Arthur’s round table was Sir Cumference.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Indeed. I opened with that joke not long ago.

[@gowensbach2998]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer I should have known. There is a website with a bunch of Lexophiles..about 44 of them. If you have seen it, then Im doomed to get one past ya, lol. I had this game years ago from AH. I never could get into it. I know its good, but I dunno. Im 65 years old now and its getting harder to learn new games.

[@ChadSchroeder]

Thanks!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR!!!! MOST KIND!!!!

[@ChadSchroeder]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer Been watching the show for years. Happy to contribute!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

@@ChadSchroeder I really appreciate it.

[@paulprecour3636]

The additional event cards included in The General magazine gave much depth to the original edition.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Interesting. Thanks.

[@wartable]

Played as a kid and backed the Kickstarter. Good memories and looking forward to play!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Excellent.

[@Socialdogma]

I recall playing the original version game quite a bit in my youth. It was a lot of fun and a learning experience. But some games just broke down into a waiting game for one side to get royally screwed over by an event card and the other side would push for a win at that point.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Interesting. Thanks.

[@Slammy555]

It's been a while but was it Archbishop of Canterbury to York that was the card everyone was scared for since they were usually your top unit?

[@dwightfitch3120]

Well, it is ur game and you could end it whenever-most votes in parliament wins. Of course having stubborn players can be a problem in any game

[@codedecode878]

still have the OG edition, played it once as a teenager it took like all night to play but was fun.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Cool. Thanks.

[@dhmcarver]

I was quite interested in where you were going to land on this one. I still have my well-loved copy from the 70s, and have been wanting to get it to the table again with my son. I always played it only two-player back in the day, with my one friend who also liked the AH games. Some of my favorite memories of childhood. I was interested to see in the comments that the Classic game, which is the one I have, was more streamlined than KM2. I recently read the rules for my version, and there was a streamlined version to those rules as well, which was very straightforward. I think your try-it-before-buy-it conclusion is very fair. A note on the cards -- yes, it does add a significant random element to the game, but they are also exceedingly thematic. In the medieval period battles were always a dicey thing (so to speak), which is why there were not as many of them as one might imagine. And things like weather, plagues & illnesses, etc. often, historically, destroyed the best laid plans. Many gamers, understandably, might not like that, but I always found it one of my favourite parts of the game.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I entirely agree about the cards being thematic. Still, it does play a bit random. Again, thank you for your comments and contribution!

[@majkus]

There are some games where you have to "Embrace the Chaos" to enjoy the game, or else play something else. GMT's Ancient Civilizations of the Inner Sea/Middle East is a recent example, but it is not hard to find others (GMT's Urban Sprawl is another, I think). Like other such games, Kingmaker does give you the tools to deal with the chaos. Lewis Pulsipher wrote, "And my impression is that coping with chaos and negotiation constitutes the essence of Kingmaker," a good many years ago. It's just one of those games. I might note that the original game had simpler setup, but was _far_ more chaotic, as your starting faction could vary _drastically_ in overall strength and capability; the new rules put some bounds on this (including the training-wheels starting factions), at the cost of the old 'just deal out half the Crown Cards' simplicity. The main way in which Kingmaker II can be said to be more streamlined than the original is in the land movement, which has been simplified (and clarified) so you aren't struggling with the idiosyncrasies of the 'terrain' to get your pieces around. And of course the Prestige victory is there to avoid the protracted endgame that spoiled the original for many people.

[@NefariousKoel]

Kingmaker "Classic" is more streamlined than KM2. You don't have to track any Prestige Points, the setup is via random dealt cards at the start, and there is a bit less variety in the Events, fewer rules, and other such things. As for combat it's still ideal to go in with an advantage in troops but you also get to play cards from your hand to your nobles before it is resolved so there can still be some back & forth surprises (also in KM2 I believe). Also, the nobles listed as killed in the battle can come out in your favor even if you didn't completely wipe the enemy army. It's just more straightforward without losing much. While the newer Kingmaker II rules seems to push for a more historically oriented setup and play, I think I still prefer the Classic rules due to the reasons above. Especially for first games.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks!

[@wm1pyro604]

Have they changed the rules for classic at all? I tried learning the rules from my dad's old copy, but I remember them being pretty bad. So at the very least I'd hope they re-did the rulebook or something.

[@NefariousKoel]

@@wm1pyro604 - Yes, they re-wrote the Classic rules. Far better than the old versions, and more precise. They also included a lot of optional extra rules for Classic in case you want to use them.

[@wm1pyro604]

@@NefariousKoel Great, thank you!

[@IridescentEye]

Was GoT based on War of the Roses? .... I'm no expert but it seemed much more the age of Heptarchy to me.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I believe it loosely was based on the WotR.

[@seanobrien798]

Some of the mechanics you described remind me of Warrior Knights (I have the FFG version).

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I've heard good things about that.

[@-Markus-]

There is not a doubt in my mind that the creators of Warrior Knight have taken A LOT of inspiration from Kingmaker. I LOVE Warrior Knights (FFG) and am thrilled to soon be getting this Kingmaker, will be my first experience with it!

[@ckvonpickles3751]

Warden to the Northern Marches

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

First rate!

[@johncullen9436]

Richard III, Columba Games. Streamlined version.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

@@johncullen9436 I haven’t played that one. Love Columbia Games.

[@johncullen9436]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer It's probably one of my favorite games. At least it's one I've played more than most. The map / board is gorgeous, hang it on the wall. If you've played Hammer of the Scots (and liked it) you will definitely like R III. After HotS, I felt like I had a whole lot more breathing room in R III. Some claim that York has an advantage. I have to admit that I have won with York almost every time I've played them. And I really hate the Plague card. Pick a city and plague it. What? Am I God? Biological warfare? I wish it could be a random event and a random city. Otherwise, I recommend it to you.

[@ericengstrom2138]

That last joke took me about 5 seconds. xD

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Ha!

[@im2yz4u17]

Dense and complex? This had to be one of hte easiest games to play when I was young. I suspect that the addition of more rules and functionality have made it even more fun.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

To each their own.

[@douglaspearson4853]

I enjoyed the orignal (still have it but not played in years). Not scared of big intense games. But I am older now and like the quicker and easier games. I still love ASL but if I had to learn it now I probably wouldn't . Thank you Memoir 44 and Heros of Normandie.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Indeed!

[@benstock2513]

I miss Evil Cody 😢

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

There are days I almost regret driving a stake through his heart.

[@davidearls1926]

I played the original many time. I liked it. In fact, Avalon Hill made a computer game version. My question is about changes from the original. It would have been nice if you had included that. Keep on Gaming! Do you go to the WBC in Pennsylvania? Dave

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Haven’t been to that con. I’m out west.

[@kimwhite7191]

I don’t think you’ve really grasped one of the key elements of KINGMAKER, which is the diplomacy factor. Only ONE person can win in the classic version. Team wins are not allowed. So to WIN you must make deals but also be prepared to back-stab your partner at any time. And they will do it to you too. This happened often in the real Wars of the Roses. Coaxing opponents to help you, balanced on a knife edge of distrust, knowing only one player will win, is an incredible buzz. I once played the AH version at a convention where the game ran from about 8pm to 4am the next morning and NO ONE knew who would win until the last climactic battle. It was me, as it turned out. Your review was very superficial in that it ignored player politics entirely. I urge you to delve deeper, there are rich rewards to be found.

[@ajmarr5671]

I have and have played the original from decades ago. Very simple game with lots of strategy. Disagree with this review. Happy to see it republished!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thank you for your thoughts.

[@Socialdogma]

Percy!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Jackson?

[@BrianMarcus-nz7cs]

Ok,😂 watched second time again,, now mr khodi have u got the time and inclination to review AandA Zombies whith the cards that boost the other axis n allies , u can do a good impression of mr t Vassell az well vooom boom 😂😂

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

I reviewed AA & Zombies, but not familiar with these cards.

[@dougsundseth2303]

Ah, RoyaltyGo ... Gotta collect 'em all! Played this (the AH version) a lot 40 - 45 years ago. The original version tends to devolve to sitting around and waiting for an inopportune event card to split up your opponent and allow for a nice murder. For its time it was very pretty and it probably had a significant effect on my interest in heraldry, but it was a flawed game. I'm pretty sure the changes in the new version were made specifically to address that late-game stalemate; it sounds like they weren't entirely successful.

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks.

[@dragos_serghie]

what an ugly looking game

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

It was an ugly war.

[@-Markus-]

Subjective, I think its beautiful!

[@Slammy555]

Most Mondays we'd start a big game of Kingmaker and play it during the week in high school in my senior year. There used to be a kingmaker video game in the 90s. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingmaker_(video_game)

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

Thanks.

[@thegamesninja3119]

It is noted any time Cody gets to play a kingmaker in a game, he makes himself king. Half the time people go... but Cody, you are in no position to win. Cody replies that is how he rolls. In Dune, Cody always plays the Benny faction and wins on turn one. Again, that is how he roles. Cody does this by becoming King of Arrakis, as a member of the Benny faction... you have not played Dune until you played it with Cody... in the original Klingon. 🥷

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

It's how I roll.

[@thegamesninja3119]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer that is what you said when trying to be bunny while hotdogging it. 🥷

[@dhmcarver]

Thanks!

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

[@dhmcarver]

@@TheDiscriminatingGamer You deserve more. Plus, you should get a commission from all of the companies whose games I have bought on your recommendation (I am particularly looking at you DVG, Fantasy Flight, Worthington, WizKids, and GMT!).

[@TheDiscriminatingGamer]

@@dhmcarver Ha! If only!