How About We Stop Adding Gear Scores and Cosmetics into Every Game | Extra Punctuation

[@JoCat]

all the gear you've tossed away or sold eventually culminating into a giant monster that comes back to kill you is a pretty great idea for a final boss that doubles as a metaphor

[@KCKeitaro]

Idea for the next campaign? I may have to save that thought away myself...

[@bugjams]

Would be great for a monster-collecting game like Pokemon. All the weak little monsters you kill and/or ditch out of your party for xp come back as a horrific amalgamation of your sins.

[@Lunchbox_games]

@@bugjams that would be both horrifying and eye opening for most people

[@irisheyesaiden]

make it somehow 1000x more bleak and depressing and this is a good premise for a yoko taro game (to be clear, it's a cool idea either way)

[@Degalon]

Sounds like a spin on how The Sorrows boss fight depended on how many people you killed in a stealth game.

[@Twitchy_McExorcism]

Reminds me of Oblivion, where every single enemy in the game was constantly getting higher numbers and better gear, so by level 25 or so, every filthy, living-in-dirt bandit gang was fully decked out in glass and daedric armor, the player essentially working against themselves by leveling up.

[@Tynansdtm]

I had a friend once tell me that the optimal (not FUN, OPTIMAL) way to play the game was to, at character creation, pick only the skills you intended to never use, that way you could level up your main skills and face increasingly easier enemies. This is likely why Skyrim did away with the class system entirely. Not that Skyrim's system is perfect by any means, it's still weird that enemies get stronger while you train your non-combat skills like lockpicking.

[@ObadiahtheSlim]

But at least in Oblivion, the stats meant something. Different skills used different stats. If you weren't casting, willpower was pointless. If you were maxed out at sneaking or taking a direct approach, then you didn't need to worry about using chameleon effects. Although the way leveling worked, you were incentivized to only tag your combat skills and just grind harder on your non-combat skills if you wanted a smooth difficulty curve. Or cheese it completely and tag useless skills and grind even harder on your combat skills.

[@justcommenting4981]

Lazy algorithmic game design. Instead of channeling players into appropriate areas by level/enemy design, the entire game basically stays the same with slight cosmetic variation. You never feel powerful really. Compared to Morrowind where you can basically become a god flying through the air and shooting fireballs and killing important characters.

[@imightbebiased9311]

Mooks should never level with the player. I feel like bosses and mid-bosses should, though. They're not just sitting around waiting to be toppled.

[@Samagachi]

Ironically, I felt more powerful at lower levels than higher levels in that game

[@francesco8000]

I hate games where enemies level up with you. It defeats the entire point of leveling up. There is nothing more cathartic that fighting a boss and then having to fight 10 of them because you've become so strong that a boss is just a normal enemy to you now.

[@RobShelley84]

Completely agree. I was late to the Assassins Creed series, my first one being Odyssey. I couldn't believe that in one part of Greece enemy soldiers were level 3 and a neighboring part they're level 26. Why not just make the parts of the map you shouldn't explore yet be well defended by a large army and fortifacations or something? It was so bizarre and took me completely out of the immersion.

[@blasphemy47]

Completely disagree. The player leveling up is more than simply a number or stats. Often times you get access to new abilities, move sets, weapons, spells etc etc. Something that enemies don't have. Ideally you want the player to make use of all these throughout the entire game. Games like Witcher 3 or Elden ring became so easy that made leveling up unnecessary, and i ended up playing naked just so the game was a little harder. Level scaling can be implemented in many ways, through mixed level encounters(skyrim, fallout) or giving the player tones of difficultly options (AC Valhalla)

[@supasoljas7824]

@@blasphemy47 I don't know about you, but for me, Fallout New Vegas' combat was more fun than Fallout 3's (not counting clunky weapons obviously, wouldn't be too fair) New Vegas barely has level scaling and it makes the courier feel powerful as the game progresses, but the game still keeps you on your toes with certain enemies being able to fuck your shit up more often than not

[@Hydrogoniise]

I think Terraria did it very well. The way enemies get harder as you progress downward, hitting harder and using crazy attacks. Then after upgrading your gear, max health, and mana, when you're basically 1-hitting everything with your cool max level gear- you defeat the final boss and the game enters hard mode. All of a sudden your cool gear is insufficient, new enemy types populate the world, and new biomes and materials become available and the cycle begins anew as you struggle to fight new, harder bosses to gain new equipment and eventually kill Cthulhu Space God.

[@napoleoncomplex2712]

@@Hydrogoniise I think another reason that works in Terraria (for those mad enough to actually play that balls hard game) is the shift makes sense in-universe as well. You've basically unleashed cosmic forces within the world's universe and it warps everything into a more dangerous version of itself. So you're not left wondering why the bug monsters outside of Balamb Garden (yeah we're going really old school now) suddenly hit like a truck and know Sorceress-level fire magic.

[@IanDeMartino]

Wait, its been seventeen years and I'm just now learning that there is a cow costume for the original God of War?!

[@ArifRWinandar]

Also a cod costume, a chef costume, and a businessman costume.

[@rudrose_tcg]

Yeah that was back when they made costumes fun, unlocks that were part of the game naturally. They all had special abilities too, I think the cow gave you Infinite Magic. Now if you wanted that Cow, it would give you Plus 1 Blade damage and would cost $3.99

[@supergluehotty]

Go and bask in the UDDER DESTRUCTION.

[@PoisonedAl]

@@rudrose_tcg $39.99 more like.

[@Canadamus_Prime]

Me too and I find that depressing.

[@HuskyHighlander23]

"Fuel for the grind machine" is a great phrase

[@thosebloodybadgers8499]

Sounds like a name for a punk band album

[@ArachCobra]

Honestly, a lot of games could probably benefit from creating less but more distinct equipment. I remember in Witcher 3 I was handed this heirloom sword from a friend in a cutscene to help me out in a quest, and then I had to immediately sell it because it was worse than the blade I had found somewhere I couldn't even remember.

[@Monocular0]

I know Witcher 3 has a very special place in a lot of people’s hearts, but it is an excellent example of piling on a bunch of unnecessary game mechanics to make the game more “rich” and “complex” when it is mostly just wasting your time. The mountains of almost identical loot being one example of this.

[@Christobix]

The different suits in Marvel's Sony's Disney's Spider-Man did this kinda well, even if collecting the tokens needed to unlock them was sometimes a bit of a repetitive copy-paste mission grind - each with a unique suit power that affected gameplay a bit, but not an extent that would prevent players (except the most optimization-focused) to just go with whatever aesthetic they preferred. In addition, they were a good mix of mostly similar standard Spider-Man suits to choose from by preferred power, and suits with a significantly different aesthetic. Also: no implied looting of street thugs for implausibly compatible high-tech superhero gear

[@brianrabadue6787]

double points actually because you can mix-and-match the suit power anyway, you don't have to wear the iron-spider suit to use the arms, etc. etc.

[@officialgagethepyro5391]

That’s what i was about to say, you could be dressed as Spider-Punk with IronSpider arms if you wanted. And since every upgrade was different and powerful it felt good to unlock them and try them out

[@jmurray1110]

Also they suits were purely cosmetic they came with abilities sure but you didn’t need them together you could equip underwater Spider-Man with iron spider arms or whatever ability who found most useful they didn’t lock stats to costumes you unlocked them with a basic level up system and costumes acted as both completely cosmetic and let you experiment with abilities

[@TerrorOfTalos]

Insomniac is one of the only developers doing cosmetics well in single player games now. The armor system in Rift Apart is particularly great; they are split up into 3 pieces that make up a full armor set giving the player a passive buff from each piece with multiple colors to switch between too (which are all unlocked from the start).

[@mistermann4163]

@@TerrorOfTalos Sounds familiar to Size Matters when it did that first(4 pieces with different combos besides what a whole sets ability did). But I could be wrong since I haven't seen any gameplay of Rift Apart let alone played it myself for PS5's being nowhere in sight near me.

[@VictorRochas]

As a Ubisoft executive, i think this video is incredibly insightful and full of great critique, we will be discussing ways to implement our future cosmetic stores in ways that circumvent this criticism.

[@Tsanito]

10 bucks nothing changes

[@TheKeeperOfKnowledge]

Mate, I'm pretty sure the only thing that can be done to cosmetic stores that will circumvent Yahtzee's criticism is to remove them entirely.

[@onemorescout]

Instead of gear scores they’ll use “gear ratings” instead

[@teecee1827]

See, you've got your answer in your sentence. Store. That's the thing that you got wrong.

[@thomasrogers8239]

If you're actually going to do something about this I will actually buy Ubisoft games again

[@piclemaniscool]

Yahtzee, you were right the first time. The Pavlovian aspect IS the mask on. the real mask OFF is that it's a controlled padding of player agency with the intention of making players become so sick of their current grind that they will opt into the additional real world purchases of XP boosts and power packs or whatever crap they peddle in that particular economy.

[@DanielThomasHutton]

How the hell did the people behind this game see the lukewarm reception to Avengers and not corse correct?

[@jmurray1110]

Money

[@giloguy101]

Funnily enough if you belive the theory going around, it's likely Gotham Knights was meant to be a live service like avengers, but that aspect got yanked out after they saw how badly Avengers failed

[@DanielThomasHutton]

@@jmurray1110 You can't predate if your prey don't play the game.

[@jmurray1110]

@@DanielThomasHutton they don’t care having those games exclusively makes it far more likely and the industry has essentially made it the only AAA option

[@jmurray1110]

@@giloguy101 certainly looks it like,

[@Medytacjusz]

Optimisation is fun when there's some actual complexity and depth to the stat system, and it works best in turn-based games, because it's hard to make stats meaningful in an action game where so much relies on skills that are unaffected by stats, like reflexes, precision, learning movement patterns.

[@jmurray1110]

Unless they decide to gut your abilities if you can’t keep up

[@coryrobertson6367]

One of my favorite aspects of the Arkham trilogy & prequel was how Batman's costume would degrade over the course of the story as he is beaten, shot and blown-up, giving me a constant reminder of all the pain I had put Bruce through. It would be neat to see them try to do something like that with a live service. It would also give you a reason to replace your gear. Maybe Alfred could sew patches on the pieces you really want to keep but in the meantime, you'll have to wear the backup suit.

[@split-n-wigs-4748]

This is an awesome thesis on not just Gotham knights, but the entire game industry as a whole right now. Video game design tropes have completely gone down the path of player addiction and maximum market consumption for profit. It’s funny because it goes to show why a game as simple as dark souls has created such a huge impression on the video game community simply by being one thing. One experience. The variation and customization of it lies in your skills. In your taste. Fromsoftware created a game formula so beautiful and entertaining that people pretend like it’s a GENRE. Number crunching and grind fuel isn’t all so bad when you’re seeking it out in say, an MMO like WOW or destiny. But I would really love to see games distance from these trends in some way. The big wigs of the gaming industry seem to be losing passion and turning profits and it’s scary to see. Dope video, hope somebody important gets a look at it :)

[@timmyman9677]

The newer God of War games have Gear systems similar to this but far, far more toned down. I think there's a place for it as an alternative to traditinal leveling up. But yeah having every enemey being an explosion of endless, shit tier loot is a major problem.

[@Josith13]

The crux of the matter is: is the gear offering meaningful choices. This gear score shit, about 95% doesn't. Seen it in The Division, Avengers, now Gotham knights... Outriders.... Everyone's current darling MMO, FFXIV, is actually guilty of this too... It's just grind for bigger stat, every new gear piece is just adding to HP and damage/heal output. There are no "builds" it's just level-ups via new gear, mostly handed out on drip-feed via weekly restrictions. BAD

[@InsufficientGravitas]

@@Josith13 I'd rather have skill trees than the gear bs, cus at least with them you don't have to pray to our lord savior RNG to get the build you want, and they can be more impactful, although expecting triple-A studios to get it right is probably wishful thinking.

[@LSB001]

I just ignore any game from a big publisher these days. EA, Activision, Ubisoft, etc. They have nothing but soulless cash-grabs to offer. Indie, or nothing.

[@Lucifer_Crowe]

@@timmyman9677 in GoW (especially Ragnarok) sure you have to level your stuff to keep up but the gearsets at level 9s main difference will be the builds/skills/perks attached

[@DarthAzabrush]

They missed a trick with Jason and Barbara: Both of whom are known for varying the weapons they employ. Babs has been known to use Escrimas, shock gloves and in her black opps days even firearms whilst Jason pretty much picks up whatever he can find whether its a bazooka or the crowbar that killed him... which for some reason Bruce put in his coffin...

[@TheArrivalCyberse]

They also missed the part where Jason doesn't look like a bald steroid obsessed jock with a knife scar across his head.

[@DarthAzabrush]

@@TheArrivalCyberse I'm okay with that as they explained the visuals quite clearly. Each character required a very different bodytype in order to be distinctive and having post Lazarus Jason looking less like a slightly taller Tim and more like a young Bane made sense to me at least from that perspective. Fuck only knows what will happen when the inevitable Azrael and Spoiler DLCs come along though. The former will probably end up looking like a young Ray Winston whilst the latter a very twitchy hunched over Bonnie Langford in bad hair dye.

[@Gill_Man]

When the fuck was Barbara in black ops?

[@DarthAzabrush]

@@Gill_Man She was the original tech handler for the Suicide Squad back in the Pre-n52 continuity before splitting from Waller to set up her own off the books super-espionage group the Birds of Prey who's early adventures were mostly focused on DCU Geo-Politics and or using Criminals against each other in a way Jason would probably approve of. It was the 80s...

[@cybertramon0012]

I think a good idea for gear is the style done in most rpgs. You can certainly get the job done in the gear you loot from enemies or purchase from stores, and from leveling yourself up enough, but there’s actual legendary gear locked behind side quests that actually make it easier. You get actually rewarded for putting in the time and effort, but at the same time you’re not punished for just pushing ahead.

[@George_M_]

It's just sick how RPG now means level gating and gear scores. I want meaningful advancement like old RPGs. I love grinding Warframe but that's because you're already basically viable for 99% of content from the start, grinding just makes you more powerful and have more options.

[@lucyferos205]

Gone are the days of Morrowind and Mass Effect. Now we have The Elder Scrolls Online and Mass Effect Andromeda. As if "RPG" is an aesthetic rather than a game design philosophy

[@Percival917]

Souls-likes and Monster Hunter. You're welcome.

[@snil4]

@@Percival917 might as well throw every JRPG on consoles

[@LazloRTR]

Warframe is quite an oddity, like 90% of the game is to make your other builds to be as powerful as your main one, instead of just a singular progression. Not to mention it's a f2p with options instead of power behind the grind (the grind's still there but you get what I mean)

[@alleosussquirt8041]

I hate having to study every tiny number to see if the numbers are better than mine.

[@gransorendragonsdogmaii9181]

⁵⁴⁴⁹⁷³⁶⁵⁹⁴³

[@Fredreegz]

This is why I never got on with WoW. Wanted to play a fun fantasy game as a druid who could turn into animals. Ended up in an endless grind punctuated by equipment accountancy.

[@Estorium]

I just hit the compare button and see if there are more green up arrows than red down arrows :D

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

I blame blizzard and WoW

[@ArcaneAzmadi]

You know what I hate? When a new piece of equipment has some better numbers than my existing gear, and some worse ones, and I have no idea which ones are better. Is +5% crit chance going to give me more DPS than a flat +2 damage? Does Defence make me more resistant to damage, or is elemental resistance more valuable, or should I just plump for more flat HP? And every game has different fucking mechanics with different balancing, so you have to look up a fucking wiki to work out which one is the One Stat to Rule Them All this time.

[@YouPlague]

This is touching on why I'm missing the old loots of old. Like Baldur's Gate where you had only a handful of powerful weapons and others were all the base level ones. When you got one, it was noteworthy and not just a grind.

[@Psychohistorian42]

Yeah, you find Lilarcor (sp?) pretty early in BG2, and that was pretty much all Minsc needed for the entire game.

[@airesbattleblade732]

Keeping Xan just for the +2 moonblade since even as a wizard he might be one of your frontliners for a few levels.

[@Modie]

I agree with the idea of Gotham Knights. But gear number crunching can also be a fun thing IF the highest challenge is always the same. The problem with Gotham Knights doesn't seem to be that you can grind gear, but that the enemies level with you and therefore, grinding gear becomes irrelevant. Compare that to a more typical RPG, where you can skill your character in different ways but the final boss will always stay the same. The grind can be meaningful, because you can outlevel the boss IF you want to or if you think they are too hard. On the same note, you can outperform the boss by thinking more about your build in general and min-max your character with what you have. So I feel, the problem is less the fact that Gotham Knights has this gear system even if it is a bit simple. The problem is more that the developers never wanted you to feel too strong or too weak at any point in the game, therefore they adjust the enemies' health and damage. And only then it becomes pointless. Of course, they could have also just done what the Arkham games have done. Keep the general level the same for both the player and the enemies, but add more complex enemies later on that require certain strategies and give the players skills that allow an advantage in certain situations which you can all use at the same time (instead of having to choose the equipment beforehand).

[@lagartoloco94]

I remember when they brought gear into darksiders 2. “Behold DEATH 4th horseman of the apocalypse! Deadliest warrior in all the lands with his legendary syth-what’s that? A pair or rusty hedge clippers with higher attack stat I found on the ground? FUCK YEAH!” It killed the immersion for me due to the impermanence of these “legendary” weapons.

[@cruye9633]

The original reason for equipable gear back in the days of early Dungeons and Dragons, beyond some more randomization for the character creation funnel (if you rolled high enough on your starting gold to afford plate armor, your fighter had a much better chance of making it past level 2, but if you rolled low enough that you couldn't afford any heavy armor...) was magic items. Unlike in current editions, your character's class didn't give you many abilites beyond some static attack or save bonuses or like three spells a day if you were a wizard. Instead, all of your cool abilites came from the magic items you found while ~~looting and pillaging~~ exploring. Two parties of identical characters could go through two different dungeons and come out completely differently because all of their cool shit is stuff that they could only have found in that dungeon.

[@SonofSethoitae]

Old D&D had really good reasons for grinding gold an gear baked into the design of the game, and it's a shame that those reasons have been lost as RPG mechanics have entered the modern era

[@cruye9633]

@@SonofSethoitae it wasn't even "grinding" it was just... a reward for playing the game. You didn't hang around doing the same shit over and over, you moved on to different adventures in new places.

[@SonofSethoitae]

@@cruye9633 That also depends on the kind of game you were playing in. Early OD&D only really had The Town and The Nearby Dungeon, and the DM would simply add new levels to the dungeon as you progressed. For some groups, there was never anything more than delving one really big dungeon over many months. Grinding, as we think of it, would likely have been more common in games like that.

[@cruye9633]

@@SonofSethoitae I still wouldn't count that as grinding? You're always moving, clearing new rooms and new levels and finding new stuff. You're never just repeating the same shit over and over until your gear is abrirarily good enough that you reckon you can survive the next area. You keep moving, if there's something you're worried about facing, you seek out something specific for it (like a Sunblade for a vampire).

[@SonofSethoitae]

@@cruye9633 I should have been clearer: this was a style of play in which there COULD be grinding, not that there necessarily was grinding or that the style of play was itself grindy. It depended on your DM. A lot of the time, threats returned to the floors you'd already cleared in-between trips back to town. So it was theoretically possible to grind. And if you had a DM that really liked to kick your teeth in, your party might think of if as beneficial to hang around killing guys on the higher floors before going deeper to gather experience and gold (which was also experience in OD&D, a great idea imho) and then carting their stuff back to town. But it feels a lot more organic in that context than it does in a lot of these grindathon games.

[@samwill7259]

Two superhero games that in another life I would have been openly ecstatic and excited for, ruined by the endless micro payment grind and equipment slots

[@bird3713]

Isn't the explanation for the constant modification of gear that it gives the illusion of progress? You find a piece of equipment that makes you feel overpowered against the goons you're currently facing, but after you've used it for a few levels, it starts to feel mediocre. So you swap it out for the next overpowered piece of gear that you find - or is this what you were alluding to with the constant grind? With that said, it is kinda rubbish what they did with this series. Look at the Arkham series where you're able to just rely on your fists throughout the whole game. Any single goon presents the same threat throughout the entire game, except that Batman expands his arsenal through incremental upgrades that give him more *options* when fighting, but not necessarily just increasing his overall power level (although there is some of that).

[@kingstarscream320]

@GiRayne You mean the Arkham quadrology. Origins is just as good and just as canon as the other three. F Rocksteady fanboys.

[@robsolf]

Yes, that's largely what he's talking about in the beginning of the vid. In the beginning, gear let you do things in different ways, and choosing gear that enhances stats and abilities you use most often used to be the point. Nowadays, gear is mostly "1 better" nonsense, improving all stats just a bit. There used to be more of a point to the gear you kept or threw away. Now it's just for that circle of gear, and often the reason seems to be the ability to sell you bigger/more "1 betters".

[@kingstarscream320]

@GiRayne You never even played it!? What a shame. The game proved that developers besides Rocksteady can make quality Batman games. Best boss fights in the series.

[@aelechko]

This used to be achieved through having a comprehensive story that makes sense and was good. Now it's by repeating the same things over and over to keep things the same. It's fucked up .

[@williamfaber1506]

Would love to see an EP on what makes a good sidekick or supporting character

[@ArthurDraco]

You should check out Extra Credits. Maybe they have a video or 2 on that.

[@Canadamus_Prime]

Remember when unlocking alternate costumes and other bonuses could be done entirely in-game and were completely optional? (Like that God of War costume that Yahtzee mentioned and I just learned was a thing). Remember when that was the standard? Those were good days....

[@ObadiahtheSlim]

Because every time the Devs tried selling us Oblivion's Horse Armor DLC, we fought back less and less until we had hats in TF2 and selling cosmetics became standard practice.

[@Tuss36]

Reminded of playing Assassin's Creed 2 and being more blown away than I should've been that I could just buy different outfit colours with ingame currency.

[@bugjams]

Deep Rock Galactic pretty much has that too. Literally thousands of cosmetics you can unlock for absolutely free. There's cosmetic DLCs, but ONLY cosmetic DLCs, no pay-walled gameplay. And the cosmetic DLCs help fund the devs so they can push out content updates that are free for everyone else. I really appreciate their business model. The DLCs also don't cost you an arm and a leg for a single skin, they're extremely fairly priced. Ugh, sorry if I sound like a shill, I promise I'm not. The game is just bloody generous.

[@Canadamus_Prime]

@@ObadiahtheSlim So really, as much as we'd like to yell at greedy corporations, we only have ourselves to blame. Esp. when large segments of The Gamers(TM) are, not only willing to lay down and accept this garbage, but actively fight back at anyone still willing to fight it.

[@kingstarscream320]

I’m ashamed of all of you for letting this happen. My stance on all this nonsense never changed since 2007 but it didn’t matter because you consoomers lapped it all up. Gaming is dead. I stick to PS3 and earlier now.

[@MisanthropeMurphy]

This sort of thing can make co-op more challenging to; it manufactures scenarios where you will struggle to kill something but the other higher level person will go through it with ease.

[@Roronoa2zoro]

God of War seems a good microcosm for how costumes have had to give way for cosmetics. As you say, it used to offer a new look for Kratos and had some fun and personality to it. God of 4 and Bod of Thor now offers you a either leather straps with a shoulder guard or a full upper-body set of armor, both of which will have different numbers and rarity levels attached and neither of which will have any significant effect on Kratos' terribly marketable overall look.

[@Lucifer_Crowe]

I mean, Ragnarok itself literally allows all gearsets to be Endgame viable, in the end it's just down to which build you prefer (sorta like Dark Souls)

[@lued123]

@@Lucifer_Crowe Once you upgrade a piece to level 9, you can make it look like any other piece, so they all kinda boil down to stat blocks in the end.

[@Lucifer_Crowe]

@@lued123 Which is even better

[@lued123]

@@Lucifer_Crowe I dunno. I don't see much reason to implement thematically appropriate armor effects if that's all gonna go out the window in the long run. Why not just have a non-completable, respec-able skill tree with effects that aren't required to be armor-matching, then have cosmetic armor and skins separately? Why go to all the effort of making the stat blocks and appearances feel matched if you're not gonna hold to that? Might as well make appearance and stats totally separate systems at that point.

[@EmperorFool]

I've also seen it sold as a pacing mechanic so eager players don't rush off to fight the main boss in the first ten minutes. Why players shouldn't be allowed to do that is never explained.

[@grfrjiglstan]

Bloodborne had this as well with its blood gem system, along with minor variants on existing weapons that just allow you to equip slightly different gems. I think they pulled it off because unless you really take a deep dive into the chalice dungeons, you could skate by without even knowing it was ever there.

[@Monocular0]

Bloodborne’s equipment system was perfect for action RPGs (and probably RPGs in general). A small number of weapons (maybe 20-something) that each had unique move sets (thanks to transformation) and niches, which could be further customized and differentiated with those gems. Armor diversity was also kept to a reasonable level, where each new piece of gear felt meaningful. As you said, you could play the game without going through chalice dungeons for the slightly altered gear and still feel like you had the complete experience.

[@benedictrogers1478]

Having played a lot of RPGs, I can say that in the right games you're primarily equipping gear for the secondary effects. But in those games you might be using the same item for significant chunks of the game, because nothing you're picking up gives any meaningful upgrade, and you start wondering why the sixteen swords from the last combat couldn't have been replaced by a bunch of copper. I played Pillars of Eternity and ended the game in the same armour I started in. It's a case of taking a mechanic that worked but had a couple of annoyances, and then removing the bit that worked.

[@Monocular0]

This is it exactly. I don’t need to find loot on every single dead enemy, crate & barrel in the game. I want finding loot to feel exciting each time it happens, not to have to micromanage my inventory every couple of minutes.

[@therefinedhellion5041]

Me pre-1:09 : "Huh, seems Yhatz is going for an informative and non-humorous approach to today's video, I am awfully shocked-" ***mentions the Bard condom*** "...ah, there's the Yhatzee I know."

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

I'm so glad you mentioned Netherrealm fighting games as they're one of the most baffling implementers of this sort of thing. All a Mortal Kombat costume should be is four or five outfits for each character with a set design in a set colour, not hundreds of different belt buckles, shirts and sunglasses for Johnny Cage each with hundreds of colour schemes.

[@PendragonDaGreat]

I think something that you kind of touched on but didn't explore fully is the context of upgrading your equipment, even if it doesn't necessarily change appearances. In Gotham Knights we're supposed to believe that these established heroes that already have tons of money and resources need to scrounge through pockets and do a slow grindy upgrade? That makes no sense, as you pointed out. But then we can look at another relatively recent (or very recent if you're not in the PlayStation ecosystem) game where it makes sense Persona 5 (and Royal). There you're a bunch of high-schoolers that basically got thrust into being underground heroes against an ever encroaching apocalyptic threat with minimal training. Here it makes sense to build up your gear and weapons because you start with basically nothing. In game your "Protector" (that is suit of armor) does not actively change your appearance in battle, but your weapons do to a degree. Then there's an entire separate section for "outfits" and that allows you to run around with everyone dressed as maids, or in your school clothes, or whatever, without changing your defense values.

[@jmurray1110]

Yeah especially good in the ports since you get a tone for free Especially the ones that can change the battle music to persona 3 and 4 (also festgerman for sone reason but I ain’t complaining that’s the suits I want to use)

[@SesameSt4Life]

I also think the combination of level-dependent gears and enemies hurts the sense of discovery and power fantasy. I remember when playing AC Odyssey, early on I found a cool weapon after a quest. I was still getting a handle of the game, so getting the equipment was pretty memorable. Inevitably, it did increasingly less damage over the course of the game and was replaced by a random spear I looted off an enemy. From then on it was pretty hard to be emotionally invested in finding new things, which I find funny because AC is trying to sell its world-building. (Not even get started on how mechanical and sparse the map is).

[@EerieCipher]

I prefer cosmetic items to just be visual so I don't have to choose based on numbers. It's fun to add that small bit of customization but I hate having to dump something I love the look of for something with higher numbers.

[@SchwhatNow]

Phantasy Star did this back in the day and it was awesome. Armor had no visuals, you just equipped the best stats. Clothing changed your look but had no mechanical effect. There was a lot to choose from when making your character, plenty more to buy, and a fair amount that could drop from certain enemies or bosses exclusively. You could look how you wanted at all times without needing to sacrifice your durability.

[@br2k]

it took CDPR more than a year and a bunch of bad press to try learning the word "transmog" corpos gonna corpo

[@snil4]

It won't even hurt their game financially, in fact games like fortnite, apex legends and LOL showed that you can do just that if: 1. The base game is fun 2. The cosmetics are unique and do more than just a simple color change (without altering gameplay of course)

[@arellajardin8188]

I saw someone claim that Gotham Knights was DC’s attempt to jump on that Marvel’s Avenger’s live service bandwagon. But the studio wasn’t qualified to make a live service, so it took too long, and then Avengers tanked so hard they gave up and converted what they had into what GK is now.

[@toongrowner1]

glad a few games like spiderman and crash 4 still do unlockable costumes. These in my opinion add way more to a gamers experience. For example I never was much of a fan of hard mode for a long time until i saw you can unlook Athena as a skin in god of war2. It was a huge struggle and plenty of frustrating but so worth it for this one skin and at the end I actually learned to appreciate hard mode and the challenge it brings. To play the game on very strategic level and since then I like to play a lot of games on hardmode. One simple skin managed to do that.

[@ultrasparrow]

This was my biggest gripe with God of War 2018 (and theoretically the new one). It took fun, hack and slash gameplay, and added uninteresting level exploration for the sake of putting on a new chest piece that does 1% more damage. So much padding for a series that rarely took you away from the combat

[@matthewmuir8884]

This was one of my biggest problems with The Witcher 3 as well. The constant swapping of weapons based on what has the most numbers, as well as the level-up system being completely pointless and outright detrimental to the combat and exploration, both greatly hindered what could have been a good game.

[@namorsalvatore6543]

@@matthewmuir8884 THANK YOU!!! I thought maybe I was crazy for not digging GOW (2018, 2022) and Witcher 3! I thought “am I just being cynical?” But no! I’m glad other people feel the same.

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@namorsalvatore6543 You're welcome. I know what you mean; I had heard a lot about The Witcher 3 and I decided to play it for myself, and I found myself really _wanting_ to like it, but ultimately being unable to do so. The story and characters were interesting, the combat was _sometimes_ fun and the exploration was _sometimes_ fun, but both the combat and the exploration were hindered by a lot of problems; the gear and level-up system being one of them. I haven't played the God of War games; I'm not usually a fan of hack & slash games.

[@nexuslord6831]

In defense of Halo Infinite, Halo's had "cosmetics" since 3, an addition people seemed to like... What should be noted however, is that these were UNLOCKED by PLAYING, and not BUYING, until Infinite, 5 too I guess but I'm pr'y sure you could still grind for Req packs. While not a point that changes much, I still think it's worth noting.

[@justanothernerd6714]

Something I appreciate about an armour system in games is when the developers include a "Cosmetic Override" so that I can get all the benefits of the armour pieces that are built Tonka Tough, but I can still dress up the character however I like. May not express the character's personality, but I can still express my own

[@D-G1N-R8]

Ah, Nioh did this as well, I preferred the more down-to-earth looking early equipment over the elaborate anime swords and armor.

[@OriontheLad]

DC Universe still had my favorite “transmog” system. If I touched it, it was added to a drop down menu for each gear piece. No matter what you equipped, you could click that menu and swap its style for anything that you’d picked up in the past. Simple and easy.

[@Shade7x]

if nothing else, "hide helmet" is a nice feature. I didn't spend all that time in character creation to look at a steel bucket.

[@maraque16]

This is one of the things I love about FFXIV. The glamour system lets you be technically wearing the big raid-tier armour, but you've cast illusion magic on each individual piece so your character can be wearing (almost) whatever you want. Some gear is still gender-locked, but hopefully the devs will change that someday

[@bugjams]

Man, I miss Spiral Knights for that...

[@RegularPhil]

I also think that the stats on items can and often do diminish the weight and consistency of the items themselves. You kill a mid game boss and get his weapon "the Spear of Lucifer destroyer of worlds" or whatever, and in the next level a fucking peasant has a sword that's better. It's more of an issue with item scaling/balance but I wanted to mention it.

[@royalfrost1]

Yahtzee: "Creativity is the art of hiding one's influences." JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: "Meet my henchman, his name is Vanilla Ice!"

[@molochi]

It's weird how ye-olde D&D's "leveling" has devolved over the decades. Leveling began as a way to mark the power progression of a character compared to the world they existed in. The human town guardsmen would always be level 0, their sergeants would be lvl 1, lieutenants would be 2-3, Captains 4-8 and lvl9+ was reserved for rarer powerful individuals. As the character progressed in their own power they would face new creature types rather than just leveling the orcs. So goblin tribes, then orcs bands, then orcs and an ogre, then ogres, then hill giants, etc... And those creatures existed to encounter even when you were too weak to beat them, so running away was a viable tactic. Gear progression wasn't tied to level, but primarily existed to allow a character to defeat more powerful enemies' resistances and immunities. A flametounge sword was just a +1 weapon, but it did more damage to things susceptible to fire and importantly kept trolls from regenerating. More over the game rarely suggested optimised gear for a character viability. A "+1 magic sword" defeated most powerful (supernatural) creatures' immunity to normal weapons, but it wasn't needed for a powerful group to beat things like fire giants and dragons. This meant that in later stages of the game a character wasn't crippled if their +5 Holy Avenger got disintegrated by the Lich, they could still fall back on the Flametounge. Though the player might whimper a bit about it. But today's games (even later versions of pnp DnD) don't do this. Leveling is just a score of invested time vs equally leveled orcs and leveled gear is half of a characters power. So your "high level" pc is gonna get their ass handed to them without gear optimization just fighting the same orc later on. The actual character is getting weaker vs the world they exist in the higher they level. I don't see a way back though, creating new creature types is work. Adding levels to existing polys and textures is easy. Also, players now expect rewards in the form more powerful weapons every time their characters level dings and leveling 50-100 levels in the space of a workweeks' worth of hours means that either you don't give them that (or make it a token value) or you make the character's leveled power dependent on the most powerful leveled gear.

[@Bruhx10]

I think the other issue is tabletop benefits from a DM being able to course correct - I generally adhere to "fight shitty little things at first as you gradually go from wanderers to adventurers to heroes" formula but if I see the players getting a bit bored of it I throw in new scenarios, character stuff, gear, creatures etc earlier. It's not particularly elegant but it works perfectly well. But a video game can't do that, the developers have to rely on stuff being enjoyable as is, which I think partially motivates all the uses of algorithms and templates (the new god of wars seratonin pacing for example). I'd argue just make the core fun to play and count on that keeping the player invested would be better but not gonna happen when they can't take any risk whatsoever

[@dumblecore]

This surprised me when playing DND for the first time. What... I don't find 5 magic swords and +12 armor each session?!! I'm currently playing Nioh 2 and the loot grind is pretty crazy. I wish more games would do it like the first Dark Souls, where finding a weapon was quite rare and the location where you found it meant something. I also wish From would go back to those roots and moreover: lose all the stupid consumables! My inventory was clogged in Elden Ring, full of useless items.

[@Chris.Cook.]

Great video! I'm a little surprised he didn't mention Diablo, as that is the first video game example I thought of concerning the "numbers go brrrrr" gear grind.

[@lucyferos205]

Diablo's loot system is a headache. Later games made it a bit nicer to deal with, but I often ended up leaving loot behind because I didn't want to deal with sorting it in my inventory later. Crafting mechanics just make the clutter worse. I know some people like these mechanics, but they're always a very small portion in the polls I've seen

[@HUNbullseye]

I think 97 twatting is not enough with only +3%. I also think this is so important of an issue it warrants a comment for other reason than telling the almighty algorithm to give this video a "+0,01% recommending to others" buff.

[@tiin111]

Monster Hunter I feel does the gear thing right. After all we chose our playstyle with our weapons (and some of them can vary wildly in their own category), we have multitudes of ways to tweak our builds through armor and gem decos, and the methods to attain our goodies involve fun fights with varied monsters.

[@DromarTB]

The gear with slightly larger numbers than the previous gear is to give a (false) sense of progression. If the gear actually made fights easier people would get bored, so they need to keep the difficulty level the same. But then you're basically just doing the same fights over and over, and a sense of progression is lost. So they give you gear that you can replace with better gear, and BAM! Progression!

[@andersonklein3587]

The antithesis to this, I would say, is the equipment in games like Bloodstained in which you get a dozen different weapon types, and each weapon within a type has different movesets available to it on top of the stats that also often force you to choose between resistance or armor, or length vs speed, etc.

[@scaper12123]

The trouble always comes to how much effort that requires. It’s so much easier - and more to the point: cheaper - to just hack out the same shit over and over, and is more cost effective if they plan to sell another skinner box next month.

[@tweekin7out]

you just repeated the point he made about dark souls, almost word for word.

[@Shade7x]

@@scaper12123 it depends on the game too. A number-oriented game like a JRPG or a MMO doesn't need weapons that feel diverse. Chasing bigger numbers to beat arbitrarily stronger monsters is the name of the game, although there are ways to make weapon choice meaningful within that framework. In a superhero action game it's completely out of place.

[@bugjams]

I hated that mechanic in BL3... whatever it was called. "Annointed" gear i think? Fucking sucked. Cool concept, adding extra perks to gear, the shitty part was how ridiculously specific they were. Stuff like "50% faster move speed upon ending your special skill as a specific character." or, "20% bonus damage while using special skill while airborn and doing a triple somersault." It made the enjoyment of getting a rare drop vanish because you'd get a "wrong" or "bad" Annoint and all you're left with is the feeling that you should grind for one that actually fits your build.

[@kirinoa]

@@tweekin7out yeah, but internet points

[@hrnekbezucha]

American Psycho feel more real every time they pull this off without anyone questioning it

[@alagosplode]

Ok, but... people are questioning it.

[@ObadiahtheSlim]

@@alagosplode Judging from game sales and what streamers are doing on Twitch not really. People eat this shit up and those of us who question it are the minority voice.

[@kingstarscream320]

@@alagosplode Try complaining about mtx and battle passes on Reddit or Steam. They will skewer you. 10 years ago it seemed like everybody agreed with me that these things were bad.

[@michaelrowave]

damn dog its almost all this was in an book about amoral corporate stooges thirty years ago so lets blame science fiction, I do lol

[@Nerdnumberone]

Crafting new gear could make sense for a Batman-family game, but preferably leaning towards side-grades that emphasize a play style or meant to counter a given foe rather than straight upgrades (like you described with Dark Souls). Lots of cartoon Batman stories have him lose the first time he fights a foe, but then he comes back with a new gadget that evens the playing field. Maybe add investigation elements that let the player learn what sort of enemy they are likely to face. Instead of having normal crafting and gear drops, they can get tech/research/experience from recovering villain tech or just fighting in general, which they can use to invent new equipment. Effectively the invent the new equipment by "buying" it with the knowledge they collected. If you lose but successfully escape, you get some research points to beat them the next time. You might have a certain number of utility belt slots (which expands over the course of the game) so you can have extra gadgets for the unexpected or to focus more on your expected foe. Do you want two slots worth of heat grenades vs Mr. Freeze, or are you going to reserve one for bat anti-shark spray?

[@Kyller3030]

that's a really cool idea, but I expect the public to groan when they hear the next superhero game is going to have Tarkov/extraction game elements

[@seanlaffey3633]

“How do we know we’re about to fight robots?” That’s a good question that I have asked myself, and you’re the only other person I’ve seen bring this up.

[@Jan_Strzelecki]

One of the _few_ things _The Old Republic_ did well was making each piece of equipment functionally the same. Their real power came from several item mods, and you could conceivably run through almost the entire game with the same exact piece of gear, cosmetic wise, while continually upgrading it with mods removed from the quest reward gear.

[@nwahnerevar9398]

the old Republic did many things well, mostly the Empire questlines and allowing me to play a multiplayer game by myself.

[@Jan_Strzelecki]

@@nwahnerevar9398 I wouldn't know 🙂 Although, when I was doing my Sith playthrough, my master would not punish me in any way, no matter how sarcastic and fractious I was, so... 🙃

[@chestedarmor5578]

In Borderlands you could argue that it has a similar thing going on, but I'd say that while you have to constantly get new weapons, the weapons feel different enough from eachother to actually give a new experience and you can focus on the manufactorer to get the kind of weapons you like. Also the number crunching part of gear selection can be fun and a part of the gameplay loop, even if it's not for everyone

[@OneHotWolfie]

Reminds me of Oblivion when you got to a high level and suddenly every bandit had glass armour and daedric weapons and it was so stupid. Why are these guys robbing lone travellers?! :D

[@CidSilverWing]

We call that "rubberbanding AI". You know how in Mario Kart you never seemed to outrun the AI players but they never seem to entirely leave you behind either?

[@avatareternal3204]

I don't know about Oblivion but if the bandits in Skyrim ever banded together, they could probably overthrow the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

[@notredboi]

@@avatareternal3204 That and they would make a rug out of Alduin

[@leowulf5280]

@@avatareternal3204 The bandits in skyrim tend to stay more reasonable gear wise but they can get some pretty crazy stats for what are supposed to be lowly criminals.

[@avatareternal3204]

@@leowulf5280 Khajiit has wares if you have coin? That's the only way I can see bandits getting their hands on the top tier stuff. And since the Khajiit merchants aren't allowed in cities, they have to make up the shortfall somehow.

[@JohnnyBurnes]

Castlevania: Curse of Darkness comes to mind with this problem. "You can create new weapons and allies!"....That all play the same as the 1rst hour of the game. Enjoy the same combo!

[@AzhreiVep]

Hey now. A handful of the allies and very few of the weapons were pretty distinctive. ... Almost all of which required lategame materials. Which were annoying to obtain. Because the stealing system kinda sucks.

[@davidcooper8371]

I liked the stealing system; it helped break up the repetitive combat and bland corridors.

[@AzhreiVep]

@@davidcooper8371 Eh, it made combat _more_ repetitive in my estimation. Too much standing around waiting on the enemy to attack _just so_ to make the reticle turn people. And don't get me started on trying to nick something off of the Dullahan or Death... jesus christ, those two.

[@DragonFiesta]

I wish there was a superhero game more like papers please. I mean there alter ego living a regular life without anyone noticing they are a superhero has to be more fun than "pew pew pew" right?

[@OdaSwifteye]

How about a game where a superhero only attains his powers after a committee of gods agree that whatever you are trying to do fulfill their best interest.

[@armelior4610]

One of the things loot-wise I love in some RPG is item sets : you have a consistent look when equiping all, and usually a bonus for the whole set/ a gradual bonus depending on the number of items equipped. And they're usually worth keeping for a good chunk of the game once completed. And sometimes you can even upgrade the items to keep them relevant throughout the whole adventure. But the best is finding a piece is special, not some random "+5 to damage against skeletons, trolls and goats" sword. I think that's basically the complete opposite of the problem Yahtzee is talking about.

[@LlamaWorm2k11]

I love the idea behind this video because I've never actually thought about the fact they aren't even lying to justify this bullshit anymore. As a community we are so beaten down with the bullshit that they can do half arsed cash grabs, without even having to pretend they aren't, and still be successful.

[@leoscar9816]

I'm so glad there are still people who can see the whole "loot" aspect of gaming is a plague on the industry.

[@sediepremps]

"It turns a character's outfit into visual white noise" damn 😂

[@Pesola]

Love it how well this sums up most of the current AAA games in the market. I mean we kinda see this in the God of War: Raknarök too. Again a video from Yahtzee that gives words to the feelings I have about current AAA games. Time to back to FFXIV and buy myself new pants that are 5 item level better.... Oh wait a minute..... 😵

[@DeadSpace501]

Yahtzee perfectly sums up the problem with grind in general nowadays, your number goes up, enemy number goes up, everything feels the same, your gear just looks a bit different now.

[@Mooreo60]

Nice. Thats why I liked Red Dead 2 - a headshot was always a headshot, and you didn't need to waste time swapping out gear. Your starting rifle was always good enough.

[@alex898]

A headshot wasn’t a headshot if they had that stupid hat perk

[@Lucifer_Crowe]

but that meant that the systems in the game (crafting express ammo which took forever, buying new guns) was pointless. I hate when a headshot doesn't do at least half a hp bar of damage to a basic enemy in games but it can also make the game feel too easy

[@Psychohistorian42]

Deep Rock Galactic avoids this by giving you alternate weapons, and dozens of ways to customize them, both in terms of stats and appearance.

[@zachnewman7115]

If anyone's wondering, the whole cosmetics-for-money thing started with a service called Gaia Online. They did it long before it ever became popular. Look it up. The lack of leveling is something I actually liked about Zelda 64. Everything was technically Level-1 from start to finish, and if you wanted to expand your utility, you had to go out and find a new tool, which would usually come with BOTH explorative AND combat functionality. It was genius.

[@backlogbuddies]

I remember making fun of my friends for joining a weeb forum where you needed to pay for avatars.

[@zachnewman7115]

@@backlogbuddies Yep! That was Gaia! You only pay for the clothes though.

[@Axwage]

I was just playing Hitman, and it does the complete opposite of all this shite. AND it's even somewhat a "live service game". Once again Yahtz you hit the nail on the head.

[@alex898]

I always say that hitman is the only good live service model

[@FCGroningen1987]

I would argue adding new gear/items could enhance the player experience (not necessarily in this game) but only if implemented right. As Yahtzee rightfully pointed out, damage buffs or different color outfits won't, but weapons or items could either give you new abilities and or a new class. I could think of the first 2 Golden Sun games as examples. You'll be encouraged to hunt Djinni doing optional content not only to get the stat buffs you need to make the game easier, but it would also allow you to mix classes that would give you completely new abilities, strengths and weaknesses. To a lesser degree the same would hold true for items as some cards could give you different classes as well and special weapons would give you interesting new critical attacks that usually have a specific special effect too. If optional content and it's rewards can change the main content it adds value. It doesn't require deep gamechanging mechanics, just some thought.

[@_sophies]

The marketing answer is that it feels like you're progressing. Number go up! That said, this stats stuff leaks all over the place. Sonic Frontiers has a completely unnecessary stats system, and they don't even ask you to pay for it! It's just bad design!

[@robbieclark1784]

I'm halfway through God of War: Ragnarok and just now watching this. Let's say it's highly relevant.

[@Craftal]

Yet another realm in which Deep Rock Galactic takes an exploitative, grindy concept, sucks the poison out of it, and makes it harmless and fun. (Rock n stone)

[@turmspitzewerk]

the grind in that game is really just a tutorial. you get the next tier of upgrade for one of your weapons after every mission and your character is maxed out at 5 hours max. nobody's actually supposed to use the weapons before they're maxed, its just to teach the player about weapon build options and force them to think about it for when they're ready to take the training wheels off.

[@zbsfm]

love deep rock galactic!

[@mistermann4163]

Well they do have the DLC for a pack of Cosmetics usually for each classes clothes and there weapons which are more as a way to support the game while getting something out of it by making your dwarves more unique looking. Especially if your a starting greenbeard and want to have something to make your character look different at the start.

[@Craftal]

@@mistermann4163 But all the same, it's all completely optional and purely visual. It's nothing like Gotham Knights or any of the other Shit Made By Cunts aka Engagement Optimization Managers.

[@leonardorestrepo5196]

I think, if BoTW incorporated movement changes to its limited pool of outfits, it would work well given the purpose of the outfits. You wear something warm to survive in the cold, and something cool in the heat. Metallic outfits are hazardous near electricity. Climbing gear was beneficial for traversal, etc. And mixing/matching outfits to deal with parallel issues (as well as potions, meals, and gear that affected your body temperature) incentivized reusing old gear. I thought it was a pretty solid system that fed into the survival aspects of the game without needing too many "stat" systems

[@HelixSnake]

Remember when your most common reward for exploration in Jedi: Fallen Order was 30 different recolors of the shittiest poncho outfit you've ever seen that you will never wear

[@atinofspam3433]

I just want to have a soldier I can customise to change his helmet, armour, face etc. I’m sick of the “operators” that COD uses. Ghost recon wildlands has always held a good place in my heart because I can actually CUSTOMISE my character

[@thecactusman17]

"The Bard gets a Durex 3-pack" Congratulations Yahtzee you've created another niche elitest gaming meme

[@GetIrked]

My favorite recent example of this shenanigans was Horizon: Forbidden West. Don't get me wrong, Horizon is one of my FAVORITE all-time-series, but the fact that you could wear one set of armor and then use a completely different set of armor's appearance so you could look one way but get the other's stats screamed that the developers knew exactly what they were doing... drawing out the gameplay. ... don't hate me, Horizon... I *love* you.

[@devsfan1830]

Video hits the nail on the head as to why I'm skipping this game. The Arkham series needed NONE of this crap to be a huge success. Court of Owls is GREAT source material and they clearly lacked the skill to translate it into an Arkham style game. So they padded the crap out of the game with these BS mechanics. What was stopping them from doing a sequel to Origins using the court?! This was a game NOBODY asked for with mechanics entirely at odds with what previous games set expectations for.

[@oceandark3044]

Honestly, I think this came from MMORPGs. People saw MMORPGs making money by selling cosmetics, and driving interest by having people grind for cosmetics, then wearing cosmetics where people could see them. Hell, the literal hardest content currently in FFXIV famously only delivers cosmetic weapons, and the trope is that the only reason people do that is to equip the weapons in a population center and then just stand there to be seen. Somehow, this crossed over into non-multiplayer games.

[@thathatguy1151]

Referring back to what you said about the gear being an interruption to gameplay, an interruption is exactly what video games such as Gotham Knights DON’T need. I was a latecomer to the Arkham series and I came into Arkham Knight hoping to try it out for a while to get an idea of what the other games were like. At most I normally played video games for 1-2 hours at a time; I proceeded to put THREE DAYS into Arkham Knight. I couldn’t figure out why I was so addicted to these games over so many others until I watched this video only to realize why. They were addicting because they had uninterrupted FLOW; you could beat a bunch of thugs to rescue a fireman, upgrade your arsenal however YOU (the player) wanted at the push of a button, and then blow up forty tanks. This is also part of the reason the new DOOM games worked, flow state is achieved when movement feels satisfying (in gameplay and in menus), main gameplay and side gameplay are of consistent quality, and everything makes sense and has a purpose for being in the game.

[@alexwilbrecht6962]

One way gear scores could be interesting is asking people to deal with resource management. Do they want to use their resources to improve an old piece of gear or wait and see if they can get a new one to invest in to. Which weapon do they want to improve? I think Fatshark's Tide series does this quite well, making the gear score system not feel like dumb shit but a fun challenge of wisely using your resources. (they also have perks like more damage against x enemy, more stamina and abilities that can be fun to try and proc as often as possible)

[@Wolfs0n]

So I guess Dying Light 2 does this but in a slightly better way? There's gear sets suited to actual roles and the game expects you to bring friends. Tank gear ups your durability and bonus damage output when using two-handed weapons. Ranger Gear gives you better stamina and bonus damage with ranged and thrown weapons. Etc. Etc. The normal zombies and bandits go down in one or two hits so the increasing stats is more to be used against the special enemies you can run across randomly. Plus actual costumes you can just wear on top of your gear. At least someone is trying to strike a balance I suppose.

[@denmark1226]

Any status on that egg Nick is gonna lay?

[@E1craZ4life]

Okay, a little background?

[@Agent00Pi]

@@E1craZ4life Check out the "new" KZbin version of the Gotham Knights video, and specifically the email YZ puts in for a few frames when discussing monetisation.

[@coolcax99]

It is interesting that you bring up Dark Souls as an example for what works here because when I first played the game, I was exhausted by its upgrade mechanics. A lot of that had to with Dark Souls being so difficult to parse with somehow simultaneously throwing way too much information and way too little but I think it also has to do with "gear score" thing you bring up here. I only fully understood the system once I played the successors, which is when I realized that the most useful qualities to look out for was Scaling > Attribute > Damage Level. My problem was that most frequently, upgrading your weapon only changed the least useful number, the damage per hit. This hardly decreased the number of times I had to hit the enemy and rarely changed how I played. The scaling and attribute changes are far more noticeable but also very rare. Attribute changes only happen with the rare materials, while scaling changes happen maybe 2-3 times in the whole 0 to +15 cycle. I was engaged with the game far more when I understood enemy patterns or weapon types. Scaling and attributes were also interesting, but the weapon upgrades were extremely dull. The armor system is also similarly disengaging for me. Only in Elden Ring I appreciated different armors for their different characteristics but that was probably because elden ring needs so much vigor to take enemy hits. In dark souls, the only stats that mattered to me were poise and weight class. The other information might as well not have been in the game. To be fair, the implementation in dark souls is executed much better than this Marvel game. You don't have to engage with the useless ones frequently and any upgrade is rare enough to feel substantial. The latest souls game, Elden Ring, also improves on these weaknesses of the prior games. Even though you still have the same basic upgrade system, you can change attribute freely (once you find the whetblades). The titenite shards are fairly abundant and can be farmed within 5-10 mins to upgrade the weapon to the next cap basically making each upgrade cycle substantial. Experimentation is fairly easy (with only the final upgrade being limited). My only gripe would be to allow character stat changes fast (i.e. the rebirth system) as well. It doesn't make much sense to keep these limited now. I think it's fine to lock it behind a boss but after that, I think it makes sense to keep it free. Especially because players can lock themselves in a (potential inefficient/difficult) playstyle that only gets more and more difficult to get out of because of increasing cost for level ups.

[@beowulf1417]

Cosmetics are fine as long as A) they're not the focus thus detracting from work on gameplay etc and B) they're not monetised

[@Ineedgames]

I hate leveling systems that level with you. The whole point of leveling up is to kick the shit in on low tear boss monsters that gave you a hard time the first go around to tell the player how far they've come. It ruins the fun when they get strong too.

[@Psilocybin77]

well done Yahtzee. Thoughtful and informative.

[@sonks336]

I feel like the worst offender of uneccessary Gear Score BS that just ruined the whole game for me was Shadow Warrior 2. Man I'm still salty about that because that game looked and felt nice to play but was dragged down by constantly showering you with loot with arbitrary numbers and having to compare them. Most people can ignore that but it irks me to know that I could possibly make slightly more damage if I spend time constantly comparing numbers no matter how tiny that improvement is.

[@Gellidus]

This gear system makes the batmobile gameplay in Arkham Knights amazing.

[@NineWorldsFromDrew]

I like that concluding explanation!

[@chrisjones5949]

Two of the games I've seen handle this best were the Insomniac Spider-Man games, and Immortals Fenyx Rising. The former has costumes and the latter has mix and match cosmetics that DO look different - and in both cases, not only do the different bits of gear come with different abilities, but you can also use any unlocked ability with any unlocked gear, so you can keep the look you like AND the ability you like.

[@techmark3665]

I would argue that lives aren’t obsolete. They just don’t work as well in longer/ more adventure based games.

[@Igorcastrochucre]

There was time in late 2000's and early 2010's where mobile games were taking over and some design decisions were basically fine tuned to perfection as to extract the most out of their player (either money or time) with this illusion of progress generated by instant gratification. The disposable gear is a 100% a product of Japanese mobile games that got popular around that time, much like Lootboxes.

[@diorikmagnison]

You may not have seen it without getting to NG+, but Legendary gear actually DID have playstyle perks. Things like "after a stealth takedown you deal more damage until you are hit" or "weakspot hits increases crit chance and damage" so at the VERY END of the game you reached a point where Elemental Status, Melee, Ranged, and Stealth were distinct play styles you could focus on, since you have smokebombs to re-stealth and Robin has additional re-stealth options. Certainly doesn't validate the garbage system but at least somewhere along they tried something worthwhile.

[@Whaleswillbewhales]

That's one thing that really annoyed me about Dying Light 2 is how the weapon system destroyed the progression that Dying Light 1 built where you went from lead pipes to swords. Sure there will still numbers there but there was a distinct, visual difference that separated the tiers of weapons to clue you in on how cool they were to find. Dying light 2 has a handful of generic scrap metal apocalypse weapons and you choose the one with the highest number stuck to it. Your starting weapon could be visually indistinct from what you ultimately ended up using.

[@KarmikCykle]

God, Dying Light 2 was such a disappointment. It took everything great about the first and made it suck.

[@Whaleswillbewhales]

@@KarmikCykle Dying Light 2 has one of the absolute worst stories in any video games bar fuckin none. It's such a garbled mess from start to finish with horrible characters with paper thin motivations. Then the combat feels like absolute shit and the RPG mechanics were so dumb. So very dumb. I think the only thing I liked about DL2, and the only thing I think it improved on, was the free running.

[@SolaScientia]

I do love Kingdoms of Amalur a lot, but the game does have this aspect with respect to most of its armor and weapons. There is a greatsword to be found later in the game and it's my favorite and I can finish the game and DLC with it just fine, but with the armor I'm frequently swapping stuff out for better defense. It's easy to see how they originally meant the game to be an MMO, but obviously that didn't happen. I do also definitely look a twat sometimes because I've picked up various bits to mix and match. I do try to wear stuff that does look decent together. That's why I love that in the Soulsborne games while I can switch out what I'm wearing if I want a little more fire resist or lightning resist or whatever, I don't have to because it doesn't really make that much of a difference. The biggest difference I see is wearing stuff with high frenzy resist in Bloodborne, but it also depends on your insight. The best frenzy resist stuff in the game won't make much difference if your insight is very high and you run into a Winter Lantern or the Brain of Mensis. Starting gear, unless you start as a wretch/waste of skin, isn't extremely bad compared to what you can find/buy in the world proper. Same for weapons and the like. I'm running around wearing a stone cat imp helm in Elden Ring and it's because it's a cat's head. No, I haven't found a helm I like more or one with better stats, but even if I did, I'd still keep wearing the cat helm because it's a freaking cat. Mixing and matching also still works, because it all still looks good even if I'm wearing the mirrah vest in DS3 with the Undead Legion helm and I've put on the Fallen Knight trousers. In Bloodborne I've been running around in the chest armor from the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst, the Knight dress bottom half, and one of the hunter hats because I like the look. As for disposability of real life items, I definitely get that impression. Nothing seems to last as long either, because they really want people to replace what breaks rather than repairing (looking at you, Apple). I have an old iPod Classic I got in 2011 and it worked wonderfully for about a decade before deciding to finally not work anymore. I have yet to replace it because there isn't an equivalent mp3 player I've found that I like. It was the only Apple product I bothered with because of the excellent storage capacity and not needing to be connected to the internet all the damn time. Same for making shit more complicated by added crap it doesn't need to actually work. If it doesn't need the internet to actually work then don't have it connect to the internet. I don't need my fridge or anything else talking to the internet. Our old wireless router had crappy range, so I replaced it with an eero wireless mesh setup. I went with the set of 3 units that are identical, because I didn't want any of them to have speakers or mics or anything that would be listening out.

[@AgentPothead]

I 100% blame Bethesda and their Horse Armor DLC for the current situation.

[@adamb1117]

I think the PlayStation Spider-Man games did cosmetics really well. Nothing boosts your damage numbers (although there are a few instant “kill” powers) but each suit has a unique ability that it unlocks. Once you unlock the suit you can put that ability on anything else. You genuinely do get to pick the suit you like the most and customize which powers you want to use with it.

[@theotherjared9824]

I think equippable armor can serve a purpose if it gets combined with a character creator. You have a base model that can be modified with accessories and new designs. It might affect gameplay with each addition changing stats, but for the most part it's cosmetic as a form of player expression. Gear load outs also get newfound relevance as a set of clothing can be coordinated to look exactly how the player wants it to look and saved for future use.

[@lucyferos205]

I think Mass Effect was on to something when their armor came in a full set and each level of armor had a few different designs to choose from

[@theotherjared9824]

@@lucyferos205 I think that should go even further with the player being able to manipulate the appearance of the armor. Think of soulcalibur, but it can affect gameplay.

[@flamesword3397]

To your point at 2:55 it's more than that, it's a difference in kind as well. It forces the player to take a break from the high intensity gameplay (in general, haven't played this particular game). I would argue this system is part of the appeal of monster hunter, upgrading and deciding what your next hunt should be to complete your kit. But in this case it looks like another AAA dev is wearing the mechanic for soul-less grind

[@TheRogueWolf]

Well, if you want to be able to put "Over 60 Hours of Gameplay!" in your trailer, you either have to A) actually painstakingly design and craft sixty hours of engaging content, or B) shove in a half-assed crafting system that forces players to loot every last enemy and spend time hunched over a crafting table in order to just maintain the balance of power. And if you can put in "time-savers" to get players to pay more to get around that- hey, bonus!

[@tequilasunsetpharmd9297]

I felt this recently while replaying the Witcher games. I loved 2 and 3 when they came out, but I remember being down on 2 for only having a handful of different armor and swords for Geralt that didn’t really do much besides change his appearance slightly. More or less your skills and level ups decided how effective you were. Then in 3, they have the numbers game on all sorts of gear and your level up points were spent making your silver sword do like 2 extra damage per chain hit. 2 felt like an rpg with limited costumes, and 3 felt like a game where your stats are based off of what gear you have.

[@matthewturpin6429]

I played through Witcher 3 with a mod that actually just removed levelling entirely. Enemies are all fixed level, 'levelling up' just granted a magic point, and all gear had level requirements removed. Now I had an experience where finding rare and supposedly valuable gear actually mattered, because it always had better stats than just some random thing I found in a cave, since it wasn't scaled to the level I was when I picked it up. It also made the highest tier of crafter Witcher gear Actually Good, because it wasn't going to be 'outleveled' by random common gear a few levels later.

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@matthewturpin6429 I've been saying for years that Witcher 3 would've been better without a level-up mechanic; it was unnecessary and it worsened the game.