Can You Judge A Game Before You've Actually Finished It? | Slightly Civil War

[@theescapist]

Listen to the podcast on Soundcloud - soundcloud.com/user-944993929/can-you-judge-a-game-before-youve-finished-it - OR find it on Itunes, Spotify or Stitcher. Watch today's Slightly Civil War episode - Which Lara Croft Would You Rather Raid Tombs With? Original or Reboot? - www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/which-lara-croft-would-you-rather-raid-tombs-with-slightly-civil-war/

[@Sound_Tech]

Is there any particular reason the member exclusive early releases aren't compatible with mobile KZbin's background play?

[@graemevaughey7432]

I hope Yahtzee isn't saddled with defending the Reboot Lara Croft, else the video's going to be very short indeed. > Jack: "The original Lara Croft is better." > Yahtzee: "... ... I agree."

[@demiurgusgodofform8589]

You absolutely can judge a game before you finish it, especially story-driven games like oh, i don't know.... THE LAST OF US PART 2?!

[@MrGamelover23]

@@demiurgusgodofform8589 You actually can't, one guy made a video called please don't buy The last of us 2 because he thought that it was spitting in the face of the themes of the first one. if he had actually finished the game or waited until it came out, however, he would have known that it actually expands on the themes. The first game's theme was summarized with the quote "when you're lost in darkness, look for the light." he thought that part 2 was doing a 180 from that and saying there was no light. However, from what I've heard of the story, the game is about how Ellie gets consumed by darkness and is only able to end her suffering by realizing that the light was inside her all along, in this case the light of forgiveness. He would have known that if he had actually played the game, or at least waited for the game to come out before making that video. So I guess what I'm saying is you can't judge a game before it comes out, which would be an interesting topic for this show.

[@demiurgusgodofform8589]

@@MrGamelover23 Spin it which ever way you want to, i can pull up several 1hr+ long videos that go into excruciating detail about how and why The Last of Us 2 is a steaming pile of garbage, and explain it far beyter than i ever could. Joel was done dirty, Ellie was done hella dirty, and Abby is an unlikable, unrepentant sociopath, but for some reason we're supposed to sympathize with her and her tevenge story, but hate and revile Ellie for hers, despite Ellie having actually moments of guilt, remorse, questioningwhether or not she's doing the right thing, and generally being more of a likeablehuman being than Ms Roid Rage was ever shown to be. Get on somewhere with that BS, because I ain't hearing it.

[@InverseAgonist]

I love when Yahtzee is saddled with a position he so obviously despises.

[@leonmiller7987]

if i remember right, beyond game breaking bugs that made it literally impossible to finish. He's finished the main story at least of every game he's reviewed, bar the recent assassins creeds

[@KingOfDoma]

@@leonmiller7987 I actually remember multiple instances of him tapping out on a game well before finishing it...

[@amazingdrewH]

@@leonmiller7987 there are several ZPs that end with him admitting he stopped before finishing because a game just sucked that much

[@SgtKaneGunlock]

@@amazingdrewH FF13 comes to mind

[@scytheseven9173]

He doesn't finish a lot of longer games (such as Persona 5) because he only has a week to review them.

[@Ryanmiller70]

It's interesting seeing Yahtzee getting the "For" spot in this argument after watching his Persona 4 Golden review and admitting himself that he only played 40% of the game during a live stream.

[@2la84me]

Yeah but Persona's main gameplay loop IS the same all the way to the end. The thing you'll likely be staying for is the story which involves the "Dating Sim/Life" aspect. To be fair I believe Yahtzee really only said things about the things he played for the most part which were all fair and true so anyone who knew squat about it got a fair impression. We all know the galaxy brain answer is: Yeah you can totally judge a game as long as youre up front about what you played and how you liked it.

[@aikikaname6508]

As a persona 4 golden super fan, 40% is a loooot of gameplay so I’d say that’s more than enough to say whether it’s fun/has good characters and dungeons etc. If the dungeons snd world hasn’t pulled you in at that point there’s no way the reveal of the killer at the end will pull you in

[@michaelrigg3623]

It's hilarious listening to Yahtzee get stuck with this side of the argument, from all the times he admits to not finishing a bad/boring game.

[@2CPhoenix]

Strangely I think the answer to this question lies in whether or not the review is positive. A game’s flaws can weigh you down and discourage you from playing further, but a game’s high points ought to be able to carry you through to the ending. I think it’d be odd to heap praises on a game if its high points weren’t enough to get you to the end, and likewise, if a game is grating your nerves, it’d be unfair to expect you to grind out the whole thing.

[@TheMedicatedArtist]

Plus the review is likely to be more negative if the reviewer had to force themselves to keep playing. People play games for entertainment; if the player isn’t entertained, then the game failed to do it’s job (this should disregard personal preferences in game genre).

[@vilesyn]

When jack dies, his headstone will read, “A game is made of many parts...”

[@TheReZisTLust]

I'd thought it would be *A life* so on and so forth

[@yanipheonu]

Most people don't finish games. Therefore, logically, most people *have* to judge a game before they finish it. Moreover, many games cannot be finished since they have no set end.

[@boxhead6177]

I agree, You can judge a game before finishing it (reaching the end of the game), if you don't plan on ever playing it again (finished with it completely). Like if your not going back to it cause its a pile of garbage that you rage quit, boredom, greedy microtransactions, is morally offensive to alienate you, or its utterly broken pile of trash that should never been sold to consumers.

[@nybxcrotona]

@@boxhead6177 Like Jack said, you can judge a game fairly accurately without having to do a full run. Music, art, and gameplay is obvious without having to play through a game's campaign. Online multiplayer can be judged with a few games as well.

[@custos3249]

Apart from games that don't have a natural ending, not really. You can judge that _portion_ of the game, but you'll do so with the exact level of incompleteness as your playthrough, opening yourself up to immediate criticism and even eye rolling dismissal depending how far you got, e.g. that commenter who joked "couldn't get past Cuphead's tutorial 0/10." Doing so is like deciding you already know where a paragraph is going 3 words into the first sentence. In one respect, sure, because most literature doesn't exceed a 6th grade difficulty and most people indicate "TL;DR" actually means "too lazy; didn't read." However, twatwaffle monster truck spiders in my eyes.

[@Azerkeux]

It's an assumption that is rooted in elitism and perpetuated by the established games media and games publishers. They want to gatekeep the criticism such that only those who obviously enjoyed the game-i.e. completed 100% of the content, because let's face it with how padded out gameplay is now, only those who are truly vested in the experience are going to sink that many hours into it- may be allowed to discuss it.

[@MrGamelover23]

@@Azerkeux of course you shouldn't be allowed to discuss the game that you never played through the main story of. That would be freaking ridiculous.

[@joelsylvestre9405]

Yatzhee will be playing Mind Jack till the end, confirmed.

[@Cirkusleader]

But how do we know when they get to the end?

[@alvinreinaldy5148]

and he'll have to play AC:od too

[@danohare1527]

And Final Fantasy XIII lol

[@nathanallwood249]

He was finished with the game. The game wasn't finished, but he was.

[@nathanallwood249]

Oh, and Kingdom Hearts 3.

[@thongdo9809]

If a game can't keep your attention until it get "good" than it have failed at it intention.

[@anthonybowman3423]

Fair, but there are some really good games out there with bad beginnings. I totally understand not wanting to wade through to that point, but if you want to do game journalism and get payed for it, I'd expect you to be able to address those parts of the game when talking about it.

[@John-bv5ui]

Ahem, Hollow Knight begs to differ

[@papita_vTuberFan]

@@anthonybowman3423 i think both points of view are valid,because there are different gamers out there. Someone might want to slog through a sloppy beggining for a good game later on, while some would rather not touch it. So different reviewers work for different gamers in my opinion.

[@anthonybowman3423]

​@@papita_vTuberFan I think it's ultimately fine if a reviewer doesn't get through the game, so long as that is expressly clear in their review. I think the "maybe this get's better later, but it doesn't seem worth it" opinion is valid, though I respect it less from a professional view point. What really gets my goat is the trend to of reviewers vaguely experiencing a game for a while then writing up a full review as though they'd experienced all the game had to offer. Usually rushing out a review to try and get to it faster than everyone else for those sweet sweet clicks on a hot new game.

[@thongdo9809]

@@anthonybowman3423 Some game simply took too long to finish, especially sand-box games that require a lots of grinding, making the game longer than it should (like 100 hours+). Should the reviewers have to spend 100+ hours grinding just to get to the ending or progress since the progress is blocked by grind?

[@Genindraz]

“If the final level of Doom has a rhythm dance-off-“ *Drakengard 3 flashbacks ensue*

[@herpderpitypurple73]

Oh God please don't remind me Wait actually that was a cool fight Wait actually Drakengard 1's is way less doable

[@MrMartin27]

Well beat me to that comment

[@ArcaneAzmadi]

I never did beat the goddamn Grotesquery Queen...

[@JameboHayabusa]

I'll never forgive yoko taro for that shit from teh original drakengard. Well, at least it gave us nier

[@herpderpitypurple73]

@@JameboHayabusa That being said at least it's one of the top ten trolls/twists in gaming history

[@beeried8973]

Hmmm, I think it's fine to not finish a game to review it, but you need to disclose that in the review that you didn't finish it. Yahtzee does a great job at this, but a lot of reviews I've read give me the impression that they don't. Some games will drive you away but are fantastic once you get into the game, like dark souls. Some are just horrendous, Superman 64.

[@addsreclame3264]

Superman 64 got fucked over by dc

[@simple-commentator-not-rea7345]

"We love you, more than your parents." Does that mean you're gonna throw household objects at me even harder? Oh well, maybe this time a lack of genetic relation will at least for once make it hot.

[@Ooffoop]

You ok, bud?

[@DezziGuy]

You mean to tell me to hear the conclusion to this debate I gotta seek down the podcast and figure that whole thing out?! It's a good thing I don't feel obligated after having already sinking 10 and a half minutes into hearing both sides of the argument. Pooh on both of you for trying this pre invested time trickery!

[@brendanrisney2449]

Genuinely can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

[@unjointedgoose8]

I mean, the podcast is a whole mother beast. This video series is comedy, whereas the podcast is a serious discussion. You would never figure it out even if the video added the podcasts time to it, because it’s just about getting laughs

[@madocofcatarina7190]

Yahtzee: Video Games don't go 'beginning, middle then stop...' FF7 Remake: Am I a joke to you?

[@Hillthugsta]

It doesn't even end after the middle. It stops after the beginning.

[@warwickknight3247]

@@Hillthugsta or rather, they had the beginning, and then shoved the end in, leaving us without a middle to justify the end

[@ZombieMinion1992]

I feel like this would have been more fun if the arguments were reversed. Hard to see our favorite critic chewing through an argument he so clearly does not believe in.

[@th3voice]

I think this one's fairly simple. You CAN tell that a game is bad before finishing it. You can't be CERTAIN a good game stays good until you finish it. It takes an ESPECIALLY egregious and terrible ending to retroactively ruin an experience that was good up until then, but it can happen. Divinity 2: Ego Draconis did this. The ending was so dismal that it made everything up until then feel BAD, whereas I had a BLAST up until the ending. For a non-game example, see the Dexter TV show - which is the worst ending of anything ever, and anyone who says otherwise is simply WRONG.

[@TheAdarkerglow]

Of course you can judge a game before you finish it. That's the dumbest question anyone's asked yet. Who asks these questions? Bad Artists who're trying to force Yahtz to defend their shyte work? "This chicken is undercooked. It kind of ruined the meal." "But you haven't even finished it!"

[@RannonSi]

I'm guessing those kinds of arguments come up more with long games that either take awhile to get into or are crap the first hours. I'd argue that Dragon Age: Origins was rather hard to get into and there are a few here in the comment section who mention Final Fantasy XIII being bad for the first 20 hours and the people liking it are the ones who soldiered through those. Maybe Dragon Age would've been worth it if I truly fought through it but I just think it wasn't my cup o' tea.

[@goonerbear8659]

You have to get salmonella before you can decide that it was undercooked.

[@TheTriforceDragon]

@@RannonSi I guess ill be an outlier on Final Fantasy XIII. I got through those bad 20 hours to the point people said it got "good". I still thought it was bad and dropped it like a hot potato only a few hours later. Never finished it and have no interest in doing so, but I do feel the 20+ hours I put in more than justifies my judging of the game.

[@4dragons632]

"We have to play games all the way to the end to see if they faceplant at the finish line" This is such a Zero Punctuation thing to say and I love it.

[@DarkRonnie]

nope i start judging a game the second it starts

[@pauljackson3491]

You're joking but have you seen the start of Witcher 3? A naked guy, hmm

[@thedarknessmagician5234]

This entire argument only really applies to games that have a heavy emphasis on story. Games that have little to no story or instead choose to focus more on gameplay don’t really need you to get to the end to really GET the game. Imagine that a new Mario game comes out and you play through the whole first half of the game. This isn’t The Last Of Us or Persona 5, it’s a Mario game. The story rarely, if ever, matters all that much, and by the time that you’ve gotten half way through you probably know everything you need to about the game in order to judge it and maybe recommend it to others. Also, what about games that have a bigger emphasis on multiplayer rather than story? Are you going to tell me that it is entirely necessary to play through and complete the story modes of games like Call Of Duty or Fortnight in order to judge them? Most people don’t even touch the single player for games like that, and it wouldn’t be right to judge and possibly recommend these games on their single player modes when most people will only ever be playing the multiplayer modes. Not all games have a major emphasis on story, and while it IS worth debating if THOSE specific types of games need to be finished in order to be judged, any game that doesn’t place its story up in front as the big reason to play gain next to nothing by requiring game critics to finish them in order to judge them. Think about it, none of us REALLY care about how the next Street Fighter game’s story mode ends. We mostly just want to know how it plays and who the playable characters are.

[@shadowphill81]

I just feel like throwing my 2 cents in. The way I look at it is like this : If I'm not enjoying my time with the game after a good couple of hours why would my opinion change at the end. I mean yeah the stories ending could be a good pay off sure but in the end it won't change the hours I spent not enjoying my time. But ay everyone views things differently and that's fine.

[@mightybaloo1880]

"There's a reason why stories don't go beginning, middle, stop." Yahtzee has clearly never seen a mumblecore film lol

[@itar10n]

I'm afraid to ask, but: mumblecore?

[@jotabeas22]

A subgenre of indie cinema based on almost always improvised and half improvised dialogues and relatively young characters in a naturalistic setting and story, without much going on and a low budget.

[@zeophen]

"You're quite free to express your ignorant and stupid opinion of something that you've only played 5 minutes of..." I was expecting Ben to acknowledge how he got his start on youtube after that. To be fair he did admit to how little of The Darkness and Heavenly Sword he had played before handing out an opinion.

[@drewe51]

Why didn't Yahtzee just say "Nier: Automata," and end this man's whole career?

[@utisti4976]

👍

[@professionalhimbo]

Or Killer Seven Or No More Heroes. Or fucking anything made by Suda51.

[@PileOfMeh]

All Jack had to say is "But Yahtzee, Assassin's Creed Odyssey!"

[@guardianmega]

I find it funny that Yahtzee ended up with the For argument, since his own reviews of Final Fantasy XIII, Lightning Returns, and Final Fantasy XV were all from incomplete playthroughs.

[@shiknobi2055]

You can judge a game by its gameplay loop/s, you can judge a game by its story. You don't have to finish a game to see if its gameplay is good or wank, but can't say the same for story. (good - Spec Ops; bad - Last of us part II; bland - mass effect 3)

[@marekhanel3549]

@Mi Ke Depends on the game's focus tho. Certain games, such as more multiplayer focused experiences don't have any story at all, and they put all that effort into the gameplay department making them stand up on that experience alone.

[@anyGould]

I would say you can, if the story to-date is shite. Same for core gameplay loops and such - if the beginning and end are bland and terrible, it's pretty unlikely the last five hours are going to magically redeem the whole exercise.

[@sambeasley1845]

Yahtzee has often stated his ideal that the final boss be 'a final, ultimate test of everything we have learned so far'. Given that stance, I'd be interested to know his opinion on optional/hidden bosses which are significantly more challenging than the final boss and, in some cases, fill that role of ultimate test better than the final boss. I'd love to ask him this question, but I can't find any way of contacting him that I'm absolutely sure isn't defunct.

[@unstoppablefizz8848]

You certainly can judge a game without finishing it because We Happy Few. I looked forward to that game. I payed full price for that game. Four hours in I found myself recreating the shower scene from The Crying Game.

[@blaize00]

You should be able to judge a game based on anything you want, so yes. I'd also say you're free to judge things you haven't even tried yet. To give you an example: You don't need firsthand experience to know that shooting yourself in the leg will hurt.

[@Pingviinimursu]

Interesting example! I would argue that you have some experiences in your life that make you think that shooting yourself in the leg will hurt. You've probably felt pain before and have the intelligence to deduce a bullet will cause a lot of it. Therefore, your judgement is partially based on actual experiences of a similar thing. This is why I would not claim you are totally wrong, but maybe refine your statement a little. For example, if you have played fps games before and have always thought they are bad, then I do believe you can judge another fps game based on previous experience, but not on experience of the game being judged. On the other hand, if you have never experienced a single vr game, I do not think you have enough experience to judge, since vr is very different from many other ways to play. To summarize; experience other than playing a certain game can sometimes be enough to judge the game, if the experience resembles the game being judged closely enough. Of course, you are allowed to judge anything based on anything or nothing, but solid experience will probably make the judgement more valid in the eyes of other people. Thanks for starting the conversation, you gave me good food for thought!

[@aisakataiga5200]

@@Pingviinimursu astute good sir

[@XzoahX]

Yahtzee is just generally better at this I think. Even when he's got the losing argument he tends to mostly win. For this one: "Please, Yatzee, tell me how you would review Animal Crossing, given the constraint that you have to finish it before reviewing it."

[@E1craZ4life]

I have a tendency to judge games entirely by their endings.

[@graemevaughey7432]

The NES, SNES/Genesis, and PS1 eras must have sucked for you, then.

[@V-Jes]

Ah so i take that Ghostbusters on NES is great then as even the ending is telling that it's a great game.

[@graemevaughey7432]

@@V-Jes You mean it had more than just the classic "Congraturation. This story is happy end." ?

[@kuraikusanagi7892]

@@graemevaughey7432 try playing Crimson Gem Saga... God, that had to be one of the worst endings I've seen. The game wasn't too bad until then, but it just... Ends. You think it might go further, because of what's going on, but nope. People fuss about FF7 remake, but at least we know it'll continue

[@TheReZisTLust]

*Laughs in 69 endings of Shadow the Hedgehog*

[@mrblooper1994]

Jack's never absent laugh at yhatzee far fetched arguments is my favorite part of it all. Also it's weird I just watched the podcast before the show on KZbin

[@The56thEmpire]

I think this is one of the most relevant issues to discuss, to answer Yahtzee's query at the beginning, lately because it relates not just to games but films and books and any other medium of story telling. Also relevant is the fact that everyone thinks themselves a bit of a critic and will discuss general criticisms of games and books etc. with friends very often. So good choice of topic, and as ever I loved the episode

[@Raida7]

Something about the animated Jack whistling is just so cute

[@SharpEdgeSoda]

How many animes can I judge before I watch season 7 when it "really gets good"?

[@RetroCheats]

Some games have bad tutorials, but once you get past it, the game can be good

[@BottomOfTheDumpsterFire]

1:03 Awwww thanks Jack, this actually is my first episode!

[@carlsiouxfalls]

Mine too, at least my first episode with the "slightly civil war" moniker.

[@khartog01]

"Entitled to slap you in the face"? No. That's a crime and the person being slapped is entitled to defend themselves from the attack.

[@thepuzzlemaster64]

For me when it comes to this I usually say if I did or didn't finish the game before expressing my opinions of it. And I usually follow a pattern: > if a game is enjoyable or plays nicely enough, I usually finish or 100% the game (depending on how fair it is to achieve 100%) > if a game becomes boring after a while, or gets on my nerves with how unfair the challenge is. I quit and never come back to it. > if a game is so unpolished, clunky, and/or just bad to do basic tasks. I quit immediately and get rid of the game.

[@SuperKillJoy15]

It depends on the kind of game. Story based game yes, because the story is the most important part. Gameplay focused game, no because once you understand the main gameplay loop you don't really need to finish it to judge whether you like it or not

[@bouledeflipper]

Here's the thing : most games can be judged without going to the end... But some games can't (1 exemple : Nier Automata), and because you don't know which is which, you have to finish every game to the end to make sure your midgame judgement is right till the end. (also, imo, the whole gatekeeping argument is (I don't know the right way to translate "déformation professionnelle") specific to your profession. Most people don't need to spend a maximum of XX hours on each game then having to write a review. It's only a problem for game journalists - and people who buy hundreds of games without playing them.)

[@thomasvinh9729]

You can judge Nier Automata before finishing it though. For example, the combat that has a nice flow with the weapon switching and combos but isn't real "deep". Once I had the hang of it, I autopiloted through fights. You get powerful pretty quickly so at least you don't have to go hunting small fry for hours. Music's real good, tracks from the first game are present. Didn't get to the "Real ending" with 9S and A1 because too bored with the gameplay so I don't have the end of the story but I can say that there wasn't big mindblowing twists up until that point (Humans all dead, Aliens all dead.. Mmh, wonder what's left creating machines and Androids). The themes of the game are neat too.

[@absoul112]

I mean technically you can, but depending on how far you get, you can be more or less accurate. Easy example, look at people who talk about TLOU2 and see the differences between those who played the whole game (or at least half of it) vs those those who’ve never started it.

[@ryuail]

Yahtzee: The end of the game is a final exam of everything you've learned up that point. Me: edit: I died laughing at final boss of DOOM being DDR.

[@Big007Boss]

Well, I nearly quit this video in the middle, but I didn't, and kinda wish I did, which is a point they make in the end.

[@15oClock]

I have an experience with this. I know Mass Effect's story well from a walkthrough, but when I sat down to play the game, I felt the actual game was over fussy. I couldn't get past the Matriarch Benezia fight because I used up all my Medi-gel (because health doesn't regenerate) and the actual fight was just frustrating. I died fairly often in that game and just gave up and skipped to Mass Effect 2. I can tell you Mass Effect has a nice story, but the game is everything that makes action RPGs hard to get into.

[@RannonSi]

Same here and there are a few game like that. That I'd love to play for the story but something with the gameplay and/or the delivering of the story etc. keeps me away from them.

[@bernardoheusi6146]

Noobs

[@nintendokings]

If a game ‘gets good after 20 hours’ (I.e. Final Fantasy XIII) then fuck it, it’s not a good game. I’m not going to slog through 20 hours of mediocrity to get to the good part. It’s not a good game and I don’t have to finish it to judge it as such

[@ZeroKami86]

So to fully enjoy this debate I have to go to Spotify and listen to the podcast? I'll wait for the book.

[@Steveypoos]

The great journey is more memorable than the destination. If it lacks that then finishing isn't required.

[@madeliner1682]

Just wanna put it out there that one of my siblings got halfway through the sixth sense, then got bored and stopped. He's convinced that the twist is that the kid sees ghosts and thinks the movie is boring because it doesn't have explosions. I can't convince him to finish it lol

[@Greenhooves]

Solar Jetman had a gameplay swerve right at the end. Ticked me off something fierce.

[@flamebrindger3984]

This video is like someone making a simple explanation of Time Travel, Chaos Theory, and Free Will to someone who plays video games. Think about it, Time Travel with Loops, Chaos Theory with how the game is an unpredicted anomaly causing divisiveness, and Free Will with everyone having a choice, and interest that determines the legacy of TLOU2 with giving acceptance or blame. People that are nonessential to survival, but made essential by giving them attention. Carrying the knowledge gained through varying experiences to craft our own Identity(character/story/opinions) in a number of Infinite Routes that could possibly happen throughout Time.

[@redtukeguy4263]

Before watching/listening: You can judge a game by the creator's past works. You can judge a game based on the amount you have played. You can get a pretty decent idea of what the game has to offer by hitting the world wide web for info.

[@SparrowwithaMachinegun]

Can You Judge A Game Before You've Actually Finished It?... Yes, of course you can, what a stupid question. I can judge a game without even starting it.

[@RadiumBadger]

I need to play this at 2x speed to understand Yahtzee.

[@kingofthewasteland]

i feel that if you start playing a game and you instantly hate it, you play for a few hours more just to give it a changse and you still hate it then that really does say all you need to know about that game does it not?

[@qdllc]

Yes. You can. Dead Island was a bowl of loose feces. I gave up on the tribal chief escort mission. I gave up on Assassin’s Creed 3 after an award didn’t unlock due to a game glitch and the only option was to play the game all over again.

[@brandon3174]

I feel like there should be a discussion that you actually need to play a game to decide if its good rather than "I never got a review copy so game bad 0/10" or "some guy on KZbin told me not to like the game"

[@adiveler]

I'm with Yahtzee! Many games ramp up the challenge gradually and introduce the late-game variant of challengers (enemies, puzzles, etc...) that test everything you've learned to this point! Quitting too early, and you might think that the game doesn't challenge you enough!

[@NekoiNemo]

Purely from a thumbnail, i thought the topic were furries. Not gonna lie, i'm tiny bit disappointed

[@o4ugDF54PLqU]

... at a glance I couldn't see the thumbnail that clearly to realize it's starfox, and even then, starfox is not really a dominant furry icon/symbol

[@slothbaby2104]

We can talk about furries if you want to

[@johannes4123]

Now I want them to argue on whether there should be more or fewer furry games

[@pygmalion0451]

@@o4ugDF54PLqU Oh, like you didn't ask yourself some uncomfortable questions after seeing Krystal's official artwork in Star Fox Assault. We all did...

[@Nparalelo]

@@o4ugDF54PLqU ... yeah. Starfox is a fcking furry icon. I can't go one day in furaffinity without some new starfox lewds on the front page.

[@Xfushion2]

Yes you can, normally after 2 hours you already have experience the core gameplay loop of the game and often that's more than enough. Sure maybe the game's story is really good or it has some awseome gameplay twist down the road, but if the player can't stand the _by to by gameplay_ why bother? Final Fantasy 13 is the prime example of this. People who liked it and finish it say it's good because on disc 2 it becomes a more standard FF game (open world, party customization, etc.) but by that point most players didn't bother because the main gameplay feature, the combat, was really boring and tedious. And exploration isn't even a thing until 20 hours later, most people aren't willing to put that many hours too see if something eventually becomes good. As for reviewing it's fine as long as you stated how much you play.

[@MrMarclax]

Yathzee said something that really nails this home. It goes along the line of "I'm playing video game because I want to have fun now. Not to potentialy have fun 14 hours later."

[@JameboHayabusa]

If you're reviewing the game though, you should know what the games pros and cons are. Sure, FF13 doesn't get good for about 20 hours into the game, but it is the reviewers job to let the people reading it, know that. That way if someone WANTS to put in the 20 hours to get to the good stuff, they can purchase the game knowing what they're getting into. The reviewers job is to give an informed opinion on the product, not just play it til they get bored, and write an essay to get money.

[@brendanrisney2449]

"We love you. More than your parents." "I wouldn't go that far, we don't know who we're talking to." The episode, summarized _But in reverse_

[@azathothwakesup]

Recently beat Plague Tale: Innosence all the way through after about 2 hours in, i was having a blast so i decide to beat the game. but, after 12 hours af a dis-satisfying gameplay loop i found myself actually hateing the game! The story was pretty good, but the gameplay actually annoying me. Anyone else get annoyed by crappy gameplay in an otherwise cool story?

[@kamikazelemming1552]

@@Mixppmix Bioshock? Crappy gameplay? In the same SENTENCE! Such words border on heresy. As for me, I'd have to go with the first Mass Effect. Story and characters are a blast, but the gameplay feels very clunky at points, and the Paragon/Renegade systems seems very unfair in terms of how it affects the story sometimes. (My first play-through saw Rex get shot in the back by Ashley due to not having much points in either stat. Needless to say, the moment I learned I had to leave either Kaiden or Ashely behind to die, I left Ashey. No one shoots Best Krogan and gets away with it.)

[@lollopingnoob9761]

I believe to a point. You cant just play the first four minutes of a game and make up your mind about it. But obviously the first few minutes are the most critical to grip people into the gameplay. But i dont think that you have to complete the game either. As the game may either have loads of repetitive side content (which may reduce the opinion of the game). But to criticise the story you SHOULD probably play the whole game to experience the whole thing.

[@Bob-jn8jt]

Man I really enjoy these debates. Very entertaining

[@Lacedtheinfinite]

I see a lot of people defending the last of us 2 with this argument

[@graemevaughey7432]

How? If you stick it out for the full 30 hours rather than quitting after the first two, you'll probably end up hating it even worse.

[@STIR-FRIED-SUBWAY-RAT]

It's silly cuz if you didn't like the game in the first hour there no way you'd sit through the rest.

[@mohammedsami6907]

You could also do the same with Death stranding though, which a lot of people who enjoyed the game have.

[@wearsjorge55]

Loved every second of it. Love a story that makes me root for characters that I hate. If I was going to quit it early it would be because of the gameplay. I can only do the same combat loop so many times before I just start running past it all

[@jeremy1860]

My personal position is that endings can often change the way we feel about a work as a whole, video game or otherwise. If, for instance, someone were to decide that they were going to stop watching Jurassic Park just before the T-Rex escape because they "thought it was boring", then they'd be missing out on what is probably the best half of the movie, which would have upped their enjoyment no end 😅

[@itchykami]

The ending is the part that sticks to your ribs. Like dessert. It certainly molds your final opinion the most if you get to it, so the question is what is more important: Your experience playing the game, or how you feel after playing the game? That said, I judge all my games, like anyone who plays games. And I almost never finish them. Also what are you doing in the game that's important to you? If you don't care about the story, you're playing the combat system, and once you get a hand on that, if it's not evolving in any way, you've already finished the game that you wanted to play.

[@ohaiduhg]

I know it was forced on him, but all I could think about was Yahtzee giving up on FFXIII before 6 hours in. I was just waiting for that to be brought up.

[@Wildblood]

A bad ending can ruin a good story, but a good ending can't salvage a bad story. Same for the fun-factor of gameplay loops and the last boss. Therefore it's possible to judge a game to be bad long before you finish it, but you can't judge it to be good until the credits roll.

[@monody]

I would argue a very simple point. If a game does not manage to make a compelling introduction, then it's end simply does not matter. Packard makes a decent point of that towards the end of this video.

[@Mernom]

Argument for: A story is nothing without an ending. Counter argument: A bad story can be clearly spotted quite fast. I've survived less than 1 page of 'my immortal', and read quite a few other bad stories in my time, so I believe I can spot a bad story quite well. And before you go all 'it gets better', if they couldn't be arsed to go back and make the beginning better (you know, the most important part that acts as the face of your story), I can't be arsed to find out if it really does.

[@JamesEDonaldson]

The only example I can think of personally, is Bioshock. I didn't care for Bioshock, at first, I was going through alright, but combat was slow, I went for hacking cause Plasmids weren't doing it for me and the Big Daddy, little Sister thing gimmick, was just that, a gimmick, it wasn't as dynamic as the pre-release made it out to be. Up to this point the only highlight was the evil artist appearing walking down the stairs, because it was the first npc not sitting safe behind a window and I can't actually interact with them. Then the "Would You Kindly" event happened and that elevated the whole experience. The clues had all been there -I was hooked from then on. Too bad the game was mostly over XD

[@infernox1099]

One example that could've been easily been used is the infamous sonic 06, no-one would finish that, but will still be reviewed plenty and fairly.

[@CheeseSlayer294]

I have 1 thing I’m confused by. What percentage of modern AAA shooter games does Yahtzee finish before making the Zero punctuations?

[@meapickle]

0:51 ok good, because I was just about to ask if you ever finished medal of honor warfighter...yes this is my first episode

[@Netbug009]

The fact of the matter is if I'm not enjoying playing or watching something, why should I feel obligated to continue spending my time on it before forming an opinion? Especially in a medium where it can take over 10 hours of my time to even get to the middle of it? If I don't like something I don't like it. I think we put way too much stock into everybody being a completionist these days so we spend way too much time doing things we don't even want to do in what is supposed to be our hobby so that other people will find us valid. We ask ourselves why it seems like we got through so many more things when we were kids, And I think one key is we're forgetting that when we were kids we'd put down things we didn't like quickly.

[@mokimoki9404]

I'd argue, Superman 64 and Bugsy 3D

[@michaelgreenwell86]

Theroy: you can judge a game as bad before finishing it but not as good before finishing it. A games purpose is to entertain/engage you, if you never finish it - it hasn't done that.

[@CorsairSoul]

Short answer, before you've finished it? Yes. Before you are competent with it? No.

[@TheCreepypro]

great debate with wonderful arguments on both sides really what this all comes down to is how patient you are if you wiling to finish a game cause you felt it was worth then fine but if you think it isn't and you don't feel like wasting your time which is valuable and finite I can't really argue with that either it just comes down to what kind of person you are

[@Denizu]

Jack "hoist my" Peckard

[@michaelramon2411]

I would have an opinion about this topic, but I didn't get around to finishing the video. So I can't judge it. ...OR CAN I?????

[@BugsyFoga]

It depends , if the game has more to offer than absolutely not but if the game shows all it has to offer prior to finishing it then perhaps you could.

[@fide1039]

The thing is, beating the game and then reviewing it is the consistant best scenario to review a game, any other completion rate is acceptable depending on the game, If you play 2 hours of say, Sonic 2, you'll be mostly qualified to review it, yet the same wouldn't apply for other games, like say, Persona 4.

[@hunter11220]

But if i follow a reviewer who's opinion lines up with mine generally and they bailed 2 hours into persona then i wouldn't need to hear about the rest. If you want reviews of full completions or reviews that tell you what you want to hear there are plenty of those but completing a game isnt and never will be a priority

[@DPGrupa]

It's ok to say that a game is bad before finishing it, but not the other way around. It's the same with critiquing restaurants - excellent desert won't make up for overcooked stake. Analogies aside, games tend not to suddenly get very good by the end. Even if the player has forced themselves to finish a bad game, they probably won't care about the ending anymore.

[@michaeloffner8515]

I would like to add that if a game makes itself inconvenient to finish, like in many mobile "games" where you have to pay to win, I sure as hell will judge the game to be a scummy cash grab before finishing it as I simply will not do so.

[@chrisrice3963]

What about games that can't be beaten? Like online arena shooters such as Counter Strike or Overwatch. Games that have no technical ending beyond a skill cap, and getting board and dropping them.

[@lasseadriansen8029]

In my opinion (which no one asked for) I think the answer boils down to it depending what you are judging about a game. For example I would say that you cannot judge a game in its entirety, without first having entirely finished it. But you can judge the aspects that lead you to not completing the game. And I would say that, that criticism is just as valid regardless, because it is just as important for a game to engaging from moment to moment as it is as a whole. It doesn’t matter how great your reveal is at the end if it wasn’t an enjoyable process to get there then you still failed as a developer. If I say a book is bad after having read only the first half, I might criticize it for having bad pacing or poorly written characters, and it would be a fair critique because the job of a writer is to keep the reader turning the page (kinda like a primary loop) if you book is a slog it is bad. But likewise even though a book might have been a real page turner, if the ending falls flat on its face it is still a failure on the writer, because even though I was entertained in the moment to moment, I was still left dissatisfied. Tl;dr both the moment to moment engagement and the ending are equally important, and if one falls short it is a reflection of the failure of the piece as a whole.

[@bryancorrell3689]

If the first bite of a meal makes me vomit, I don't need to eat the rest of it to determine that it's bad.

[@Just4Fun-Zocker]

I would have loved to see this discussion the other way around.

[@AssasinZorro]

It's funny Jack didn't say anything about games that have no endings, like "Mount&Blade"

[@Cyan-hide]

Yhatzee takes a stance Looks at all the modern Final Fantasy games nervously

[@slothfulcobra]

pretty good arguments from yahtzee here, which is surprising, because he's not shy about saying when he didn't finish a game. Also not sure that's a correct usage of the term "sunk cost fallacy".

[@codyprodutions8623]

If you know a game is bad and you have no desire to play any further to see the ending, then you should be able to judge it. If it takes the game till the end in order for it to get better then its not a good game, plus if you are going to add a turnabout the best point for the turnabout is the middle because you have more time to experience it the better half of the game.

[@kingnothing3523]

If the mechanics and story in the beginning and middle are too weak to motivate the player/critic to finish the game, that is a valid criticism. There are basically no ways to end a story that are gratifying enough to make up for the main body being shit. And on the mechanics side, if the finale had a twist on the rules and tactics differing from prior gameplay, it won't pay off if the mechanics until then have been boring and/or broken. Or let me put it simply: if the reward for crawling through a mile of mud, broken glass and scorpions was just a bag of Skittles, would you finish the challenge?

[@mattsheculski2253]

This actually was the first episode of this series for me. So the intro was a nice surprise.

[@graemevaughey7432]

I possess the momentous skill of judging games without ever even playing them. It's called being _jaded._

[@Zero_Shift]

It's yet another one of those that can be easily disputed by just using logic. The only good example would be game critics that absolutely suck to the point they need 30 minutes in a cuphead tutorial. Those shouldn't be allowed to rate. But that's not the normality. Normally you have games that are endless, extremely drawn out or just already bring up most of their gameplay in the first few hours of gameplay. An ending very rarely changes anything and only is symbolic for the story, as you can always just continue playing the game.

[@cliffthecrafter]

Having not watched this video yet but liked it anyways, short answer: no, long answer: you don't have to do anything to judge anything, but if you want to *fairly* judge a game you do need to play a good amount of it. For some games, that does mean finishing. The story in the first Last of Us was a very important part of the game, and the ending was a very important part of the story, so it would be unfair to judge it without seeing the ending. On the other hand, I think judging Skyrim without finishing the game is *more* fair than judging it after rushing through the main quest and beating the game, because rushing through the main quest is clearly not how anyone was meant to play that game. Also, infinite high-score based games such as Tetris don't have endings, and neither do multiplayer games without singleplayer modes, yet it is still possible to fairly judge such games.