The Guest Right Curse Theory | Game of Thrones

[@fabianbinder3681]

If my recollection is correct, Lady Dustin explicitly states that Wyman only eats and drinks food and beverages he brought with him, therefore he isn’t bound by guest right in Winterfell at all.

[@fabianbinder3681]

In my head canon the wildlings made the same choice, but there is no evidence in the books.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Offt! That would be a brilliant catch if true! Does it have to specifically have to be the hosts food? Or just food they share? - Thom

[@TheFandomeClips]

Wow that's a neat detail! Wyman is one wise cookie that's for sure! Thansk for tuning in as always Fabian! Liam

[@aprilmae274]

I literally just posted about this ha! Yep. manderly brings ALL his own food and fodder to Winterfell...and NO hostages. He ALSO gave them Freys Guest Gifts. He is not bound by Guest Right at ALL. Barbrey AND Manderly are in at ALL together. Barbrey brings Roose into it after he gets back North-notice how the focus shifts in text FROM the Boltons TO Ramsey. Down to Barbrey's 'the North Remembers' speech. Also-manderly's speech to Davos regarding the North and how Davos gets uncomfortable for the part where Manderly goes wolf-North? THAT is because Manderly is qouting Barbrey Dustin. SHE was AT White Harbor ALREADY. SHE is why Davos is spared-that is HER idea. Barbrey and horse connections should NEVER be ignored. I could go on-but I PROMISE you that in text, Barbrey is a REAL Player. She has her 'fingers' in a ALL the 'pies'. She even has connection to Little Finger through Brandon Stark..and now also-Jeyne Poole/Arya.

[@fabianbinder3681]

@@TheFandomeClips wow, thanks for pinning! I somewhat conflated two things: 1. Lady Dustin tells Theon that Roose at the feast eats anything only if Manderly ate it first. It’s implied that Manderly brought the food and only ate „his“ food. 2. Therefore some people came up with the theory that Manderly again found a loophole to guest right if he didn’t get/consume any food from the Boltons after the feast, too. I do think that it has to be the host who shares the food, as Catelyn urges Robb to eat anything offered as fast as possible at the Twins, they could have sped it up if they brought something along.

[@deathdeathington]

The origins of guest rights predate the rat cook. The rat cook was cursed BECAUSE he violated guest rights. If guest rights weren't a thing when he did what he did he wouldn't have been cursed.

[@roentgen571]

that's a very good point. The Guest Right custom must be truly ancient.

[@MagicalMaster]

@@roentgen571 It is, and it's based on the real life laws of hospitality. You wanna know what Zeus was considered so important to ancient Greeks? That was his protectorate. He wasn't just the boss of bosses, he wasn't just master of the sky. He was the enforcer of Hospitality. A ton of old stories, from all over the world, are all about Hospitality, or Guest Rights as it's called in Game of Thrones. They go two ways and were designed to keep people alive and society intact. Breaking them was one of the very few universal taboos and even the most savage cultures enforced them. If you were invited into another's home and offered a meal you were as good as family until you left. And anyone who broke this in either direction was regarded as a monster. Guests who took advantage became communally shunned and Hosts that betrayed their guests got the same, at the very least. And this is the kind of shunning where it was no longer considered socially unacceptable to abuse you, or in some cases KILL. A person shunned by society was not protected by it, not allowed to benefit from it and was only a step away from exile.

[@lilcelebriteatingz2504]

Or maybe that's when it started because it was so offensive.

[@alek7998]

"My Son came to the twins a guest, he ate Lord Walder's bread and salt and hung his sword along the wall to feast with friends, and they MURDERED him, murdered I say. And may the Freys choke up their fables." -Wyman MOTHERFUCKING Manderley, the single biggest chad north of the Neck. And are we even surprised he is bending the knee before the One True King?

[@TheFandomeClips]

😂 Trust me Alek we are not surprised in the slightest, big man Manderly is a boss. I can't wait to see his revenge come full circle in the books! Thanks for watching matey! Liam

[@MadManManderly]

What can I say, the North Remembers.

[@pwnanubasaurus2950]

@@MadManManderly The North does remember, now go get those Bolton scum out of Winterfell with Stannis if you didn’t already, I haven’t read any books yet 😂

[@JonAntipasSubayno]

And the mummer's farce is almost done

[@roentgen571]

The Manderleys are proving to be the truest, most loyal Stark bannermen, and hell yeah to them.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

The breaking of guest right is a grave sin, an affront to the Old Gods, and the New. And the ancient powers are waking, "the trees have eyes again."

[@tarvoc746]

So I see this in terms of the literary genre of Magical Realism. As I see it, GRRM is doing something similar to authors like Gabriel Garçia Marquez, in that magic in ASoIaF is often symbolic for the momenta of social relations. If you break guest right, what you're doing is undermining an institution that is essential for the functioning of feudal societies like the ones in Westeros. For example, without guest right, it becomes utterly impossible to have any kind of peace negotiations. If you erode social cohesion to this extent, it *will* come back to bite you. People will stop trusting each other, but primarily, they will stop trusting *you.* What the story of the Rat King essentially says is that if you act like an animal, you will become one, in the sense that people will start to see and treat you like one. It's symbolism, at least thematically.

[@benparrish672]

In Greek mythology, Zeus has "worse than Death'd" a few people for breaking this. 1st werewolf

[@roentgen571]

One small detail from the books I thought was awesome... After Jon let the Wildlings south of The Wall, the carved faces started showing up on trees that weren't weirwoods...oaks and soldier pines and others. The North Remembers.

[@tengotenma]

@@benparrish672 Lycan(thrope)

[@jeremy1860]

Given all the weird magic stuff we've seen in this story, a legit curse definitely isn't something people should rule out 😅

[@aprilmae274]

Well-there is definitely one curse in play for the books, the Eleni bloodcurse with them icey blue eyes.

[@AlyssMa7rin]

The curse of Harrenhal, the curse of Old Valyria, the curse of Undeath

[@Courageous91]

"When have the iron born ever gotten anything right?!" I cackled in my car hearing this. I'm not gonna lie

[@TheFandomeClips]

Haha thanks matey we aim to make people smile and thanks for tuning in as always! Liam

[@Akiraspin]

The Frey's have a game their children play called "Lord of the Crossing" where one person (the lord) holds a staff and the rest of the players have to ask for permission to go past them and swear fealty. If they use the word; *Mayhaps* , it is a code word that means "I lied". The game is you have to fit the word "mayhaps" into your oath of fealty without the Lord noticing. As soon as the lord hears the word "Mayhaps" they must assume you are lying and hit you off the play bridge with their staff. If they let you pass without, they lose and you become the new lord... Walder Frey says to Robb and Catelyn when they arrive for the wedding; "You'll want bread, and salt... *Mayhaps* some sausage. Heh." *Wyman Manderly says upon seeing Little Walder's body; "Mayhaps it's for the best, had he grown up, he would have been a Frey."*

[@frenchsterr]

In the books Wyman is lowkey an absolute savage..his fierce loyalty to the Starks is unbelievable

[@chainsawing]

Another cool note about this theory: multiple times, castles and keeps are referred to as being “woven” with ancient and powerful magic that protects it from outside influence or magic, such as Melisandre needing to be within the walls of Storm’s End to make the shadow baby work… Guest Right might have a lot to do with the magic of the actual locations and what the simple ritual of guest right sort of “trigger” inside the walls. Just a little spice on the theory! Great video!

[@soxpeewee]

Or if not the location the blood of the nobles

[@The_Malcontented]

"The balls on Wyman; no wonder he can't ride a horse" Liam comes up with the best freaking lines

[@TheFandomeClips]

Haha thanks Mal, ive got to give Thom the credit for that one though! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@SeedSuikoden]

That even tywin is happy to let the freys take the credit 😂

[@arianweneverett3910]

Because Tywin didn't break guest right. Tywin wasn't at the Red Wedding, nor did he have any direct authority at the Twins. To apportion any blame to Tywin for the Red Wedding, you have to completely negate Walder Frey's agency. Walder was the Lord of the Twins. The reason Robb had to make a deal with him in the first place was to use the Twins to cross the Trident and to gain access to Walder's fighting men. Yes, you can argue that as a Tully bannerman, they were owed to Edmure, and by extension Robb, but Robb and Edmure didn't have a means of enforcing that compliance in the middle of a war where they couldn't afford to waste their troops doing so. So Walder held the cards in the Riverlands, both when he negotiated with Catelyn and during the Red Wedding. Tywin could tempt or threaten Walder, but Walder had to carry the Red Wedding out in his own home. Tywin's is lord of Casterly Rock. As far as we know, guest right wasn't broken there, thus Tywin didn't break guest right at the Red Wedding.

[@peterwindhorst5775]

@@arianweneverett3910 probably all Tywin did was send a letter saying "I give you a pardon, you know what I am capable of. I will give you a shit ton of gold if you turn your army on Rob for breaking your marriage deal". Tywin expected Frey to use a military battle and attack Rob from the rear or something - not the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding began as soon as Frey met with Catlyn, he had no plans on keeping up his end of the deal - he was planning to kill them all - because you slighted me years ago at my last wedding.

[@t-rexcellentreviews1663]

Tywin knew exactly Walder was going to do and even he knows it was a grave violation of the rules of warfare, which is why he went to great lengths to avoid having his name associated with the slaughter, to very little success.

[@arianweneverett3910]

@@t-rexcellentreviews1663 I never said Tywin didn't break the rules of warfare. He most definitely did. What he didn't do was break guest right, which is a completely different thing in Westeros. One is regarded as dishonorable, the other is the second worst crime a person can commit in Westeros, topped only by kinslaying. There's a big difference between the two in Westeros.

[@The_Malcontented]

The Rat King story is definitely the oldest account of Guest Right, but given that the First Men held and continue to hold it sacred as well (even moreso than the Andals,) and the First Men came to Westeros thousands of years before the Andals, it almost certainly predates the events of The Rat King by a significant margin, and either weren't honored in legend before the legend of the Rat King, or the legend(s) have been lost to the mists of time.

[@MangoMann072]

Walder Frey literally cursed his entire House for petty revenge. And some fools consider him an actual player 😂

[@TheFandomeClips]

Yeah he's literally one step up from Balon because he understands the concept of allies but not much more than that 😂 Thanks for watching MangoMan! Liam

[@soxpeewee]

Even a bad player is a player that affects the game

[@woodyhorton8537]

The lannisters think he's an idiot too lol

[@iErnie56]

@@soxpeewee he's not a player, he's a pawn

[@georgeprchal3924]

Even the savage Wildlings North of the Wall hold it sacred.

[@TheFandomeClips]

And those guys wear eachothers bones and eat eachother 😂 thanks for watching George! Liam

[@soxpeewee]

​@@TheFandomeClipseating a fellow guest counts as guest right for the living guest?

[@tengotenma]

Free Folk.

[@aprilmae274]

The Guest Right gig-and the Freys. I don't think it is a coincidence that the Freys have a 'rat-like' look about them and Walder Frey has SO many children. After Stevron dies-Walder goes ALL OUT Rat King.The Red Wedding IS the Rat King story ALL over again playing out, lowkey.

[@TheFandomeClips]

I can dig that! Thanks for watching April! Liam

[@treppie]

Even the gods thought Joffrey had it coming.

[@TheFandomeClips]

They didn't need to intervene they knew that people would eventually have enough of his crap 😂 most satisfying death in TV history lol. Thanks for watching Treppie! Liam

[@JohnDoe-vy6ju]

@@TheFandomeClips "We are the gods, guest right is the most sacred thing and we will never tolerate any--oh, that shithead? Okay you know what that one's on us, have fun."

[@someguyoutthere110]

Even if "gods" don't exist, that doesnt preclude the existence of very powerful humans (or Children etc) acting as gods. Maybe time-traveling Bran is just punishing everyone who breaks guest right because of what it did to his family.

[@The_Malcontented]

"Fun" fact about how Wyman's pies are allegedly pork pies: according to IRL interviews with people who have eaten human flesh (in some cultures, to eat one's deceased relatives was the greatest symbol of familial love because the deceased are strengthening their surviving family members, and the surviving family members are honoring their deceased relatives by accepting that gift,) human flesh tastes very similar to pork (hence why the euphemism for it that dates back centuries is "long pork" or "long pig.") So maybe Wyman knew that and he claimed they were pork pies so that as the others were eating them, the taste would be similar to what they were expecting

[@travismcnasty51]

That or he heard about it much in the same way you did. I've never eaten human flesh, nor dog meat. But I have had monkey. It's like a half step between venison and pork, but there is this extra sweetness to it.

[@charlottewalnut3118]

@@travismcnasty51 why on gods green earth did you eat monkey

[@carastone3473]

“We need the last two books, GEORGE!” YES!!🙌

[@LordBloodraven]

I chalked up Guest Rite's retributions to idiots tempting fate. Pushing kids out windows and slaughtering the groom's family and friends at a wedding reception invited retaliation, even when the deed was done in secret (like with Jaime). It's not necessarily the Gods responding to the deed, but the inevitable reaction to such things. Bran fell despite being a great climber. This raises questions. The Starks were slaughtered at the Red Wedding in a manner lacking subtlety, inviting rebukes from the Faith as well as other lords throughout the Riverlands and North.

[@TheFandomeClips]

There's definitely an element of Karma to it my lord. In some of these cases especially Ellaria and Walder its definitely more a case of cause and effect I find. Thanks for tuning in as always mate, always nice to see you in the comments! Liam

[@kylecharles4333]

The way honour is such an important part of Game of thrones has me thinking it's more like a law rather than divine punishment, feels like it's made for the lords to do business in safety, just later adopted by everyone else because it makes sense to keep track of who you can trust in a world that seems so easy to die, love the video and look forward to seeing what's next.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thanks for coming by Kyle as always matey! We've got a LF video and an Arthur Dayne theories video in the works and so much more lol. I think there's something to guest right, just not sure its godly and maybe more magical. Thanks for stopping by as always! Liam

[@sonofsanguinius4880]

If I remember correctly George said in an interview that in his universe gods kind of exist, but they are not as active as they are in other fantasí universes, and there never will be a moment when a god appears has a chat with someone.

[@The_Malcontented]

"But since when are the Ironborn right about anything" 🤣 Amazing

[@haloman117fanatic]

The other thing you’ve got to take into account is that by breaking guest law you are also breaking your word. And that by breaking your word your believability and credibility go through the toilet. I think and they lived long enough the phrase “never trust a Fray” would have become quite a popular one.

[@calin2491]

so dondarion getting resurected/revived and not once but multiple times, both in the books and show, while also being explicitly expressed that bringing back from death should be impossible is just one of those coincidences?

[@eddieford9373]

The stongest dieties in planetos: the godess of poetic irony and the god of plot armor

[@TheFandomeClips]

Damn, can't believe we forgot to mention them! - Thom

[@The_Malcontented]

Guest Right and the taboo against kinslaying are basically the only 2 things that everyone, from the Wall to the Summer Sea, from the Sunset Sea to the Narrow Sea, ALL agree upon.

[@thepunisher6674]

I think Arya robbing the hound isn’t guest right revenge it’s just her leaving him for dead since he’s still on her list even though he’s protecting her and she’s robbing him because why leave valuable silver

[@TheFandomeClips]

Its definitely one of the weaker cases, especially when you consider the events that lead to it been a punishment are show only events, the whole deal with the farmer doesn't take place in the books, in fact The Hound actually honors his word to the village who pay him to do some work. Thanks for watching Punisher! Liam

[@TV-ge3uj]

"Dead men need no silver." - Not to mention that he is the worst sh!t in the Seven Kingdoms.

[@thepunisher6674]

@@TV-ge3uj You clearly haven’t met his brother

[@TV-ge3uj]

@@thepunisher6674 But the man he killed did snore ...

[@thepunisher6674]

@@TV-ge3uj And his brother did play with his toy

[@Mathemagical55]

Spontaneous blindness? It's the bitter drink that Arya is given every night that keeps her blind and she understands she can refuse it and regain her sight in the morning.

[@TheFandomeClips]

We know Math, we were approaching it light heartedly 😂 thanks for watching! Liam

[@performingpersephone1603]

In ancient Greek culture there's this thing called "Xenios Zeus", which basically meant protection for a guest. Every house had a shrine dedicated to Xenios Zeus and it was regarded as a great hubris to not uphold it. I think that's what inspired Martin.

[@TheFandomeClips]

It probably is. I know guest right was also a thing in Britain at one time. The Red Wedding is based on a real event called The Black Dinner. Very interesting to hear about its origins in ancient Greece though! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@bundayeti]

2:43 You really thought we wouldn't recognise Eowyn's soup served to Aragorn in the Two Towers?

[@anthonywatkins462]

1:55 That wouldve been interested way to get an army south-ish to fight if Winterfell fell to the Night King.

[@Vortexnicholas]

Even randyll Tarly brought it up and was disgusted by the red wedding act .

[@keirangrant1607]

HAHAHA! "But since when are the Iron Born right about anything?" Hehehehe, banger!

[@TheFandomeClips]

Come on you know its true Keiran 😂

[@larsgossing7893]

Where do I start...Vaitlin broke the guestright with Jon.John got very sick under her Care,she praid to save His live.She promised to the gods,If John Loved,she would treat him Like her own.The gods kept him alive but Caitling...Oathbraket

[@counterspellgoon6854]

jaime didnt kill bran, so the gods only returned the favor and maimed jamie of the same hand he pushed bran out with and crippled the boy.

[@TheFandomeClips]

See i thought it might be the same hand, but we're never told which hand it is in the books and in the show he does it with his left hand, can't believe the show missed the opportunity to reinforce that idea. Thanks for watching counterspellgoon! Liam

[@counterspellgoon6854]

@@TheFandomeClips I think the show is a misnomer. And while yes we haven't heard explicitly through the books it was his right hand. We can however infer it as such given the other guest right breakers circumstances after such events occur

[@priximus2254]

Magic is power, and like Varys says, power resides where people believe it resides

[@The_Malcontented]

I LOVE your Magic Pact theory. Never thought of that but it makes so much sense!

[@hastur3201]

Watching some scenes from the show I just realized how cool it would be if Hafthor played the role of Hodor instead of The Mountain

[@TheFandomeClips]

The first guy was definitely the best guy to play the Mountain in my opinion. I like the original Hodor actor to be honest, he was really good at showing us that child like simplicity. Thanks for watching Hastur! Liam

[@hastur3201]

@@TheFandomeClips Yeah, they guy did a great job with his childish facial expressions, that's true. I just finished the second book and now reading the third one, and it's mentioned on multiple ocasions that Hodor had supermuscular arms and upper body, that's why i thought about Hafthor.

[@mcpudd-20k]

Walder never broke guest right. we’re told about the game the little Fray’s play where you have to tell a lie, but you have to say “mayhaps” when you do it. If you don’t get caught, you win, and can knock the other into the water. If the other person realizes you’re lying, they can push you into the water. Walder even criticized Robb, telling him if he had said mayhaps it would’ve been chill to marry someone else. Then Walder says mayhaps when offering guest right, in his mind, relinquishing his responsibilities to keep his guests safe And for Olena, she didn’t break guestright either, as she was specifically cited by Cerci for paying for all 77 courses. The food was also brought to Kings Landing from High Garden. She never ate any food she didn’t bring or pay for

[@yourdad6902]

@@mcpudd-20k bro Frey's broke guest right they are getting powned

[@DominionSorcerer]

Gentlefellow, the rules of a children's game does not mean Walder Frey didn't break the most ancient custom in all of Westeros. He broke guest right, plain and simple, all of Westeros but the Freys themselves proclaim as much and their attempts at defending themselves are simple at best.

[@yourdad6902]

@@DominionSorcerer but but he said mayhaps

[@The_WARDen1591]

Cold Hands is confirmed to not be Benjen Stark as far as the books are concerned. That was a show only thing

[@Gunleaver]

The Rat Cook story is not the origin of guest right, rather it is merely a story illustrating the extreme of the custom. The actual origin is, like the rules of warfare, rooted in practical necessity. Basically, people have to be able to trust one another when offering or accepting shelter. Inns, such as we know them from inaccurate fantasy stories, were not much of a thing in a medieval era, and came about much later (the region of Middle Earth from which the Hobbits come is more inspired by modern times than the actual middle ages - that's why the Fellowship doesn't stop at any other inns after Bree). If you were going to venture far from home, which few people did, you would need to be given food (ditto above re: restaurants, even more so) & shelter by others. So for travel to be possible, the idea arose that you HAD to be welcoming to guests in need of shelter, and in turn, guests had to behave scrupulously well toward their hosts. There are real world legends of Zeus or Odin (depending on the culture; others besides the Greeks & Germanic folk had similar legends & fables) traveling in disguise to test the hospitality of people they meet along the way, and rewarding generous hosts and punishing the niggardly or inhospitable. It's like respecting truces and parlays in warfare, and treating captured wounded enemies or surrendering men well. The point is to avoid degenerating to a state of vicious brutality, every man for himself and conflicts playing out to the brutal end. These customs allow men to surrender, saving the lives it would take to finish the battle by killing them, and allow enemies to take a time out to talk through their issue and find ways to resolve a conflict with less bloodshed. This is what we see playing out in the last two books, after the Red Wedding, and even starting the Epilogue to the book where it takes place. Merrett Frey is thoroughly harmless. His death brings no great aid to the enemies of House Frey, nor does it hurt them all that much, or cause them much grief. And as the Brotherhood plainly acknowledge when doing it, it means an end to any ransoms of captive Freys, because Walder is not going to trust a second such offer. And Merrett came in good faith, under an implicit truce, to ransom a captive. It is in everyone's interest to make such exchanges go well, so each side can get what they want. But because of their transgression against hospitality & guest right, the Freys are considered fair game by the religiously devout Brotherhood. Furthermore, they are so hated and people so outraged at their transgression that the prospect of future ransoms does not interest them nearly as much as the chance to kill two rather pointless Freys. We see the same thing at work with anecdotes of other killings, including some by men who have clearly surrendered in expectation of having their lives spared. It is at the root of the Blackfish's refusal to accept even the most generous terms from Jaime, because the Lannisters and Freys have a track record of unreliability in this regard, with Jaime's breaking of his oath of service in the Kingsguard compounding the loss of credibility his father & Walder Frey earned from carrying out the Red Wedding. The Freys & Lannisters broke the rules, so the rules no longer apply to them. You don't have to respect their rights as your guests or hosts (Tom O'Sevens is almost certainly conspiring with his brethren to massacre any Lannisters & Freys they can catch in Riverrun, despite the fact that by taking service there, as he indicates he plans to do when speaking to Jaime (and trying to entice Jaime to stay to here his playing, including a rendition of the Rains of Castamere), despite that being a similar violation of guest right and allegiance. We see it at play with everything Wyman Manderly does, such as telling Davos that when dealing with liars, an honest man must lie, and murdering three men in cold blood, while conforming to the bare minimum technical adherence to the laws of hospitality, in giving them guest gifts to formally end their guest-host relationship, all the while probably setting them up to be murdered the moment they set foot outside his door, if that.

[@hanshawks5088]

I like how you used niggardly 😂😂😂

[@WallNutBreaker524]

15:53 Very interesting. So that's why Lord of the Rings and GoT n Asoif, and Grrm and Tolkien keep getting brought up together. They're the exact opposite of each other in their stories and in real life 😂

[@thesoupofthebrain2446]

I'm pretty sure this falls under the power resides where you think it does. For a long time this was a rule that kept the peace. Anyone who was caught breaking it had major consequences. It tried friends to enemies swiftly. I would say the gods didn't have much to do with it

[@TheFandomeClips]

I think this is a pretty good explanation. The biggest hole in the theory for me personally is the fact that some of the stronger examples come from the show, and DnD likely aren't as watchful for avoiding tropes as GRRM is. Still its an interesting idea though! Thanks for tuning in as always Soupy! Liam

[@BussinJeiber-wy1nc]

Karl Fookin Tanner The Legend of Gin Ally!

[@prico3358]

❤🎉How Ghost became Lord Commander of the Nights watch: - Ghost took his vows with Jon and Sam at the heart tree. - He remained at Castle Black during Jon's absence, indicating his commitment to the Night's Watch. - Ghost stayed behind during the Battle of the Bastards, adhering to the Night's Watch's neutrality. - He joined the Battle of Winterfell only after the Night's Watch abandoned their post. - Ghost bravely fought in the Long Night and assumed leadership after Edd's death. - Even in Jon's absence, Ghost continued to guard Castle Black. - Ghost's actions exemplify loyalty and duty, making him the unspoken leader of the Night's Watch.

[@haydenhodgson8716]

Another great video guys, absolutely love it. Also, liam is just so carasamatic with his voice could listen for hours. Keep it up guys you deserve so much !!

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thanks Hayden I honestly appreciate that! Its nice to have my voice liked instead of being compared to Matt Berry from the IT crowd 😂 thanks for watching as always matey! Liam

[@thehalfmanTL]

Baelish is an enigma.. outside of time and consequences 😂

[@TheFandomeClips]

He certainly bloody was season 5 onwards 😂 thanks for watching as always Halfman! Liam

[@jasonhosea9331]

Most likely was just george trying to say at least have manners when they give you fucking food and dont talk politics at the table

[@voltronsbluelion]

Ok you finally sold me -- on the part about Guest-right being the ONLY force in SOIAF that has a tangible, predictable result re-balancing the justice. That's something to fear no matter where it comes from, especially in an un-just world.

[@cart3rsh0rt47]

Little finger died grasping at his throat just like Joffrey

[@TheFandomeClips]

Someone else has pointed that out to us Cart! But appreciate people pointing it out as its really good point in favour of the theory! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@Clos_Goldstienburg-III]

The God / gods of Ice & Fire work more along the lines of the Abrahamic faith type of power system.

[@TP1988]

I’m afraid it turns out you’re really good at these fan theory videos. My condolences.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Haha thanks TP, Thom has already told me to get another one in the works lol. Thanks for watching as always mate! Liam

[@alanmike6883]

The manderlys are faithful to the starks. Since we know magic exists in this world, and it's resurgence since the rebirth of danys dragons, i totally buy into the curse

[@TheFandomeClips]

They bloody are, I can't name a single one of my family members who would kill my enemies and bake them into a pie for me 😂 Thanks for watching as always Alan! Liam

[@alanmike6883]

@@TheFandomeClips Starks should intermarried with them don't you think? 😁

[@t-rexcellentreviews1663]

After the mutiny at Crastor’s Keep, their were nine surviving mutineers, Ollo Lophand, Clubfoot Karl and Dirk among them, their would have been ten, one of Lark’s cousins, but he broke his neck from a fall while chasing one of Crastor’s wives, later five of the mutineers were killed by Coldhands, with Ollo Lophand being confirmed among their number by a one handed corpse being seen through Summer’s eyes, since Coldhands was originally a member of the Nights Watch and the Mutineer’s killed several of their own black brothers during the mutiny, Ollo in particular killing Lord Commander Mormont, their deaths at the hands of an undead Ranger doing the bidding of both Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest, and by extension, the Old Gods as well, is very fitting end for them, especially since afterwards their remains were eaten. As for the remaining four, of which might or might not include Clubfoot Karl and Dirk, we still don’t know exactly what happened to them, they could still be alive at Crastor’s, but given that they have now lost over half of their original numbers, it’s quite possible that Crastor’s wives could have overpowered them and slaughtered them as well, and even if they haven’t, I don’t see them lasting long when the Others eventually show back up at Crastor’s Keep, expecting a new baby to transform into an Other and they mutineers will have none to offer, besides their own bodies as future Wights.

[@TheFandomeClips]

I think that's a great point about Coldhands been a former nights watch member! It does actually help back up the theory in the books! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@exilhannabal]

Guest right appears to me the kind of magic law kinda thing that either just kinda exists the same capacity as Threshholds for vampires due to the inherent intent Ppĺ have respected it so long that it _is_ and you cant just violate it because either the universe will punish you or other people will punish you Magic reinforced karma, basically

[@TheFandomeClips]

I like that idea! Thanks for watching Hannabal! Liam

[@andreasul2608]

Moral of the video: If you live in westeros, betray people you fed only if you're just about to die. Effectively sending a message to the gods as a bonus.

[@11bluekitkats]

Man you guys gotta make some more theory videos this was awesome! It makes me wonder is there any instances before the show where people took revenge after guest right was broken?

[@TheFandomeClips]

Already got the next one in the works SW danger good buddy! All the mysteries around Arthur Dayne! And some day I'm hoping we can get to luke vs luke! Thanks for watching as always matey! Liam

[@11bluekitkats]

@@TheFandomeClips That should we another great one! I’m so pumped to work on Luke vs Luke with you guys!

[@aecides3203]

So, serious question - what's to stop a guest eating the bread and salt and then just...refusing to ever leave? In theory, no matter how obnoxious a guest is or how much they outstay their welcome, there's nothing you can do as long as they don't actively harm their hosts. I suppose "throwing someone out on their backside" would be a pretty minor breach, but it's still going to hurt unless you order the guards to very, very gently escort them out while being careful to cause no harm even if they struggle. I guess, beyond that, you could also just refuse to feed them since "making them look elsewhere for a meal if they want one" isn't harming them and if the guest would rather starve than leave in search of food, that seems more like self harm bought about by cutting your nose to spite your face. Places like the Red Keep also confuse me a little with guest right. For example, did Jaime break guest right by killing the Mad King, since he was technically a guest in the Mad King's home and had presumably eaten/drunk since arriving? Or does the fact that he lived there as a Kingsguard negate this? How about Cersei? I'm pretty sure half the murders in the Red Keep can be attributed to Cersei and as the wife of the King it should clearly extend to her when someone is granted his protection. She definitely seemed willing to have Baelish offed without a second thought (show only, I know) and you could even technically count Pycelle as a breach since he's still within the wider palace when he's swarmed by urchins. But, again, does having a long term room /role there negate this?

[@TV4Fun2]

Technically, Craster broke guest right first by attacking Karl. Karl was just defending himself. Would the gods have considered Karl's verbal insult to be enough to break guest right first?

[@TheFandomeClips]

I think it might be who causes the harm first, while Craster may have attacked first I don't think he managed to harm his guest at all, Karl was the one who actually slew his host, I'm sure guests and hosts can have rows and little bust ups as long as they don't do any serious harm, otherwise I doubt people would choose keeps as a place to negotiate with their enemies or people they don't get along with lol. But you do raise an interesting point, what is the threshold of harm in which it takes to break guest right? Thanks for watching TV4fun! Liam

[@phnompenhandy]

Great video, fully convincing, but you might have strengthened your case by mentioning 'the one that got away' - Renly's peach. Had Stannis bitten the peach, he would have inadvertently accepted guest right and would not have 'fathered' the shadow baby.

[@jordanvangundy975]

I’m confused. Roose Bolton wasn’t stabbed. He was poisoned by his enemies.

[@TheFandomeClips]

😂 Bloody brilliant stuff Jordan! That got a really good laugh out of me! Thanks for watching mate! Liam

[@ryanmassey586]

"Tw@ King" 👑 😂😂😂😂

[@jorgizoran4340]

5 aspects of the Faith of the Seven appear to greet Ser Duncan in the Dunk and Egg books.

[@thegreatpage5912]

Tanner also gets a sword through the mouth, like he did Craster. If the rat cook was a member of the Nights Watch how does he have children to consume in the first place. Aren't they forbidden from fathering children.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Don’t ask questions! 😂 Maybe he was a cool but not a nights watch member 👀😂

[@SerunaXI]

If it's possible that Arya isn't quite herself anymore, but one of the faceless ones, then she might be a punishment from above.

[@soxpeewee]

Olenna doesn't violate guest rights. It was her food and Joffery's home. Joffery didn't give her guest rights... Jaime doesn't break guest rights either as you cannot harm your host or guest within the walls and Bran is outside and the ruins are no longer used. Technicalities FT!

[@ashsuna7774]

I only recently got into GoT (was too young to watch when it came out) and I'm enjoying it a fair amount but I'm constantly in a state of understanding amusement at the rage of "WE STILL NEED THE LAST TWO BOOKS GEORGE"

[@TheFandomeClips]

Absolutely! Winds of Winter constantly feels like it’s just around the corner 😂 - Thom

[@walksaselk40]

GRR martin is watching this going "yeah, I mean't to do that... what of it?"

[@thepunisher6674]

I do not believe the gods or even prophecy is real in the ASOIAF universe but people in the universe believe they do, rheagar believes in prophecy and that drives him to manipulate Lyanna and start Robert’s rebellion. The gods may not exist but people do believe in guest right and will now be coming for the Frey’s (even those who weren’t involved) with vengeance on their minds either way

[@TheFandomeClips]

Red Wedding 2.0 is a very popular theory with lady stoneheart concluding affairs with the cutting of Walders throat. -Liam

[@thepunisher6674]

@@TheFandomeClips Yeah it probably will happen and Jaime and brienne will probably get roped into it and either brienne or Jaime will put lady stone heart to rest

[@devinm524]

16:12 on the topic of theology in ASOIAF, Many of the actors did some readings of narration one of my favorites was Jorah Mormont talking about the statues of the gods in Vaes Dothrak starting with the Horse Gate kzbin.info/www/bejne/sGTFcmRpgbCGrrcsi=vmv9CSlKXDI4Zsxw "through it is the god's way, where the Dohtraki dragged the sacred idols of the cities and peoples they have broken, on one side, stone gods look down on you from cracked thrones with chipped and stained faces, their names lost to time. Across the road monsters watch you pass, black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffons, maticores with barbed tails poised to strike and other terrible beasts from every corner in Esos. But there is nothing to fear, if these gods and devils had any power, it never would have ended here." so very matter of fact and poignant, the disillusionment alone is romantic. and for those that want to correct me that the video is talking about religions in Westeros, i circle back to the timestamp where the question was about religion within the ASOIAF universe, and remind you that R'hllor was from Esos

[@TheFandomeClips]

All of Ian/Jorahs narrations were absolutely amazing. I love stuff that approaches it from an in world perspective. Thanks for watching! Liam

[@joshwells3782]

I love how grrm does the horrors of war i dont like it but it's real we suffer when the elite play at war

[@mcpudd-20k]

Walder never broke guest right. we’re told about the game the little Fray’s play where you have to tell a lie, but you have to say “mayhaps” when you do it. If you don’t get caught, you win, and can knock the other into the water. If the other person realizes you’re lying, they can push you into the water. Walder even criticized Robb, telling him if he had said mayhaps it would’ve been chill to marry someone else. Then Walder says mayhaps when offering guest right, in his mind, relinquishing his responsibilities to keep his guests safe

[@TheCrimsonPhucker777]

Ariah poisoned the merchant by the sea in the books and not much happened to her tbh..

[@jasonhosea9331]

Not guest rights didn't he buy her oysters or whatever

[@TheCrimsonPhucker777]

@@jasonhosea9331 the Starks were buying the rights to the bridge for Ned didn’t they, i mean they did lie and swap who was getting married but everyone is wanting something from their guest in this series..

[@jasonhosea9331]

@TheCrimsonPhucker777 true but we're talking about someone in bravos not that

[@jasmineolivine]

What about Bloodraven inviting the Blackfyre heirs to KL under a peace banner and then having them executed? I feel like they broke bread and salt when they arrived, am I misremembering...? Interesting that someone with such intimate knowledge of magical forces in the world would disregard this so brazenly and then go on to magically outlive everyone of his time.

[@DominionSorcerer]

Bloodraven offered Aenys Blackfyre safe conduct to King's Landing, but had him arrested and dragged off in chains to be executed as soon as he arrived at the city gates. Aenys was not offered guest rights, but Bloodraven was still sent to the Wall for this murder.

[@Krackonis]

These guys came from space and that is where much of this comes from... And the childrens hive minds

[@aprilmae274]

Can Olenna Tyrell violate guest right if it is ALL her food, etc?

[@NathanWeeks]

I feel like people are being overly critical of Walder Frey. Sure he's nasty about it, but he's basically playing the same game the other lesser houses are. He tried to marry off a daughter to potentially the next king, when that failed he shifted allegiances, married a daughter off to the soon-to-be new Warden of the North, and got in good with the ruling family of Westeros. Sure, he lacks the cunning, charm, or hygiene of the Tyrells, but he's not that different.

[@OurHiltsHurt]

Yo how did you animate Lord Maderly lol

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thom is just wizard Hilts, he proves the existence of magic in our world lol! Thanks for stopping by mate! Liam

[@layelaye]

Karl fookin Tanner did not brrak guest right. It was Kraster who attacked first, technically Karl just killed him in self defence

[@TheFandomeClips]

I would say he still did to be honest, it might be a case of who actually causes harm first, Craster may have attacked first but Karl is the first person to do actual physical harm. You could also argue that intent plays a role, Craster may have attacked first but you can't deny that Karl Fookin Tanner is the one who starts the altercation with his insults. Its not self defence if your actively provoking someone to attack. Thanks for watching Layelaye! Liam

[@Gunleaver]

This video is incorrect about the book fate of the mutineers, and it was VERY ironic. Don't think for a moment that the hack show bettered Martin in such a literary manner. The mutineers are, in fact, dead, killed by Coldhands (whom Martin specifically denied was Benjen in a note to his editor or publisher). The information is not explicit, being filtered through Bran's awareness of events, but at one point in their journey together, Coldhands turns back to deal with a threat, and from what we see through Bran's warging and comments Coldhands makes on his return, he definitely killed the deserters, some of whom were already being eaten by the wolves Varamyr once controlled, and which Bran encounters in Summer's skin. When Coldhands returns to the group he has acquired pork, which they eat. Allegedly, somehow, Coldhands found a life pig when even the wolves could not find any game and were scavenging old human corpses. LOL, nope. The pork used to be a mutineer. So yes, the mutineers, who violated guest right desiring food and shelter and fearing to fight the undead, end up being murdered by a sort-of undead for food to keep some humans alive to continue the fight the mutineers abandoned.

[@joels5150]

When is Guest Right allowed to be revoked? What if a guest has overstated their welcome by a few months? What if they keep raiding the pantry without ever contributing and they sleep on the couch all day? There has got to be a limit to how much hospitality you are required to provide 🤷‍♀️

[@soxpeewee]

Sharing with an invitation...I think if you revoke the invitation and the guests take anyway then it doesn't count. For example, the nights watchmen who were actually "kicked out" by Craster after HE broke the guest right.

[@DominionSorcerer]

Guest right is extended each time the guest accepts food under the host's roof. By not offering someone food the host is making it clear they will not give them guest right, by not accepting food the guest makes it clear he is not accepting guest right and will soon leave.

[@datnoob4394]

On the Gods and Magic point, at what point does that make a difference? Maybe the Magic users that cause the evidence of the Old Gods are the old gods? And on the point of Goerge being too good a writer to betray the arc of his narrative, I don't think he has a choice, the story demands the narrative arc of anarchy be betrayed.

[@TheFandomeClips]

I think it honestly depends on what you would classify as a god to be honest. Someone like the Three Eyed Raven would certainly make the cut for some cultures, as would Drogon for others. Its quite subjective for ASOIAF. I think that's what makes it so interesting, just enough evidence to say maybe, but not enough to say yes with certainty. Thanks for watching Dat Noob! Liam

[@neodigremo]

I've got to say I disagree with the conclusion that the God's of Westeros do not exist. As you say about R'hllor at least that the followers do have legit abilities that others do not. The combinations of prophecy and resurrection alone suggest there is some entity or force that gives them power. Now some of what Mel does (the shadow baby) is more general magic, but the bringing back of Stoneheart and Beric is kind of out there compared to everything else. It all hinges on what you mean by a God. In ASOIAF it seems to be a term applied to some sort of entity with abilities beyond human powers able to be called upon for favours. The only question is if the force that gives priest of R'hllor power is an entity of some other kind of force. Is there a mind there. If so then it fits that definition of a god. Now whether the characters are right about the Gods, or the Gods being benevolent, is a separate question. I think it does kind of fit the aesthetic of the world that the most probably real God is a complete prick who wants human sacrifice.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Oh the lord of light definitely screws with the iron clad atheistic argument that's for sure. The other faiths you can chaulk up the abilities to just general magic usage. But the sacrifice element to TLOTs rituals is definitely the thread that keeps the idea that there might be devine in the world hanging. I think that's what makes it so intriguing, just enough to say MAYBE but no where near enough to say YES. Thanks for watching as always Neo! Liam

[@TV-ge3uj]

In another video it was stated that the Seven may have the least evidence on their side, but they are also the *only* deities expected to answer to mere prayers, whereas any other deity gets sacrifices (usually in blood). The Old Andals gave sacrifices themselves to the Seven, and they are said to have received gifts in return.

[@charlottewalnut3118]

Yeah, whether George likes it or not given some of the things that have happened there are clearly some form of gods within his stories he can be a crybaby little neck beard atheist. All he likes that doesn’t make him any less wrong both in reality and in his own stories Secondarily, the gods actually have favored significant amounts of characters the God of the story being the writer as one of the Targaryen specifically Damon as well as blood Raven has significantly survived shit that they damn well should not have and there’s no amount of luck that will allow you to get away with shooting purposely into your own allies even if you are the king brother that’s instant you got stabbed in the night alongside all of your allies to death by your so-called allies because they didn’t want to be the next group of people that you feathered, it’s plainly obvious that he’s just being kind of a neck beard who has been on Reddit for far too long

[@sergoldenhandthejust1495]

10:13 did you miss him getting a table kicked into him and sliced opened???

[@batosi3112]

The old gods and the lord of Light definitely exist in ASOIAF. I do agree magic has alot to do with it.

[@acouplegamerz3340]

Joffrey and Little Finger both die clawing their throats and choking on their blood.

[@TheFandomeClips]

South Park Cop meme- Niiiice! I wish we had made that connection! Bloody good stuff 👏 Thanks for watching acouplegamerz! Liam

[@gamebawesome]

Hello, I hope you don't mind me bringing this up, but I think you Best Commanders video got taken down. Can't seem to find it anywhere, and I loved that video.

[@TheFandomeClips]

No problem at all! It was taken down and we'll be reupping it in the future :) Hopefully bypass those pesky claimers at HBO! -Thom

[@Shadowwind4]

Great video I love the concept of guest right in game of thrones!

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thanks Shadow! Yeah it definitely seems more perilous than our real world equivalent! Thanks for watching matey! Liam

[@mathewparry9256]

Hopefully Frey dies of old age, less clichéd, however the house of Frey is going to end up eating itself, foreshadowed and already in motion in the books.

[@გიორგიმოსაშვილი-ო3დ]

I really like it being a sort of magic ritual that binds guest and host, I'll use it in dnd campaigns for sure

[@aprilmae274]

Manderly is not skating a fine line. He gave them Guest Gifts-Barbrey is behind THAT sweet loophole move. Manderly brings ALL his own food and fodder to Winterfell and NO hostages. Ie will not be breaking Guest Right. And hey! Take a closer look at those nice little ponies Barbrey gave the Frey Boys. In text, Manderly does not plan on living much longer at all and he has set HIS part of THE plan in motion before he ever leaves White Harbor. I'm gona skip to the Gods/Old Gods but I had to say, Barbrey is behind almost all of the North plotline currently. She is even starting to figure out how LF is screwing her with the Fake Arya. So the Gods. They exist to the characters in text-but they are in fact Game Masters of a sort. The House of the Undying, in text, was also a GM. THAT Heart. Another is in the cave where Blood Raven and Bran are in text currently. Guest Right exists for the same reason the other FEW basic rules exist in text...to further the Game. So the Players have neutral ground to meet on, etc. In text-there are Rules set down throughout. A few Unbreakable Rules that are SO important to the Game that to transgress offends BOTH Gods AND Man. THOSE Rules are Game Rules. In text tere are 2 stories playing out-one is the surface 'reality' and the other is the Game. You have to Know YOUR Name to start Playing. Little Finger spells it out for Sansa on his boat after Joff dies. Theon as well in his last chapters. There are 'hidden' GM's in text and THESE are also the God's. Euron is a character who is finding these God's/GM's and killing them. Dany has killed a couple..and Bran and Arya are about when the books pick back up. Bran is going to kill BR/the Children in that cave and Arya is going to take out the HoBaW. Pretty sure Euron just took out Starry Sept by the end of Forsaken chapter. He says only old women left in Oldtown/the Reach so yeah-that region has fallen. That's gona be a few more Gods/GM's gone. These books are genius like crazy fun-I think it might be why so many peeps get confused. Because it is hard to just accept that it is SUPPOSED to be literally insane to read. It is insanity laid out beautifully in a way that would make Lewis Carroll, C.S Lewis and Terry Pratchett practically jealous. Honestly-most authors should be SO impressed with this ENTIRE storyline. Nothing like this has ever been written SO well.

[@hilaryhongkong]

Wouldn't the unique existence of Lady Stoneheart itself be proof that it's a thing?

[@TheFandomeClips]

I think it depends on how much stock you put in the idea of destiny and devine will. It certainly looks like there is definitely something to it thats for sure! Thanks for watching Hilary! Liam

[@seldomsane5278]

Great vid. Yeah, I follow a similar train of thought about the gods. More likely it is a moral of respect passed down. Other than fantastic elements like magic and dragons, it is a world not too different to our own, at least at a human level.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Its a fascinating topic when it comes to the gods, there's just enough evidence to say hmmmm maybe, but nowhere near enough to say yes for definite. Definitely wouldn't mess around with TLOL and his followers though, magic or gods they can out their money where their mouth is, no wonder Stannis backs them lol. Thanks for watching SeldomSane, always good to see you in the comments! Liam

[@seldomsane5278]

@@TheFandomeClips Cheers mate. Yeah, not sure I've missed a vid since I started watching your channel. Solid content as always.

[@magicaljagical647]

Weren’t the Wights created by the Children of the Forest(who worshipped the Old gods) the ones who created them during their war against the First Men or was that a show only thing that was revealed?

[@DominionSorcerer]

Show only thing (so far).

[@carastone3473]

Great video!

[@TheFandomeClips]

Hey Again Cara ! Glad you enjoyed it :D

[@Uzair_Of_Babylon465]

Great video keep it up you're doing amazing things 😁💯

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thanks Uzair! We'll try our best! Liam

[@JoaoLima-n2t]

Where did the great commanders video go? Demonitazion?

[@theamericannestormakhno2360]

Learn what the word "Anarchy" means before you use it incorrectly