Pre-Emergent Programs, WHY ARE THEY NOT WORKING - Cool & Warm Season

It's no longer about prodiamine vs. dithiopyr. It's about WHY THEY'RE NOT NOT WORKING
#preemergent #weedprograms #turfgrassmanagement
carbonearth.co
CHECK OUT THE CARBON EARTH KZbin CHANNEL
instagram: thegrassfactor
NEED MERCH? the-grass-fact...
SUBSCRIBE HERE - / thegrassfactor
Email contact:
[e-mail]
Equipment Used:
Permagreen, Lesco, GNC Sprayers, SOLO, Helena Chemical, Quali-Pro, Syngenta, DowAgro, Harrells, Dickens Turf and Landscape Supply, NuFarm, Bayer, FMC, GORDONS, Prime Source, DJI Phantom, Samsung Galaxy s8+, GoPro Hero 3+, LUMIX G7, Canon EOS M50

[@alansmith2162]

Matt Martin teaching at such a high level that he's phasing in and out of reality

[@ryanknorrlawncare]

This was my entertainment for the evening and I thoroughly enjoyed it! I have not used any pre-emergent on my bluegrass backyard for probably 3-4 years now and no issues there whatsoever even though my neighbor is weed city. Thick lawn...very few weeds. :)

[@wadeb.5509]

To be honest I accidentally wandered over here from the LCN. I thought I was thirsty for another sip from the fountain and Matt turned on a fire hose. Thanks! This level of learning is greatly helping me understand the why, even for the home gamer guy.

[@TheLawnCareNut]

If anyone ever makes fun of my greenscreen work again, I am sending them here!

[@lushlawns8904]

I thought I might have a seizure from the knowledge bomb and Matt phasing in and out.

[@DK-pr9ny]

I had to put a post-it over the image lol

[@BrillianceAutoSpa]

😅

[@johnoshea3349]

Excellent information. I have 42 years in this industry and take the chemistry of it very important. I have skipped preemergent on established healthy lawns and didn't identify any major problems. Yes, post only worked fabulous. My truck is set up with multiple tanks that also allow me to treat only problem areas with certain products. I also believe we must do a better job of educating our customers on understanding acceptable levels of weeds vs excessive chemical use. Thanks for such great information. It does help in developing a strategy that provides high level turf and an overall reduction in chemicals.

[@non-masteryproductions6910]

My goodness that was a whole lot of information to digest. Thank you for putting this out. I think after a few more replays and several pages of notes I will start to grasp it all. I feel like this really shows that, as DIYers, we still have a responsibility to use these products in a responsible manner. The fact that we are not compensated does not mean we should be any less professional than someone who does this work for a living.

[@TheGrassFactor]

😘😘

[@Velvethamma]

Us cool season folks are definitely limited when it comes to pre emergent modes of action diversity. For years we had pendamethelin pushed by our beloved Lesco. Then prodiamine and finally dithiopyr. No wonder why our crabgrass sneaks by so easily. Appreciate your time putting these presentations together

[@scriptureplz9045]

I have been planning for several days to put out prodiamine on my yard. Today was the perfect day with rain coming in Wednesday. I changed my mind after listening to your video. I may do it some time in the future, maybe Fall, but I'll be way more sure of what I'm doing first. Thanks for all you do!

[@smileyzr2]

Good information, very well put together. Most of these herbicides are beyond the reach cost-wise for most lawn care people or residential applications

[@dric30]

Excellent breakout on the weed killer efficacy mixes! Best on KZbin so far!

[@kevinwheeler9120]

Matt this was AMAZING!! I am comfortable going EXTREME now lol. Thanks so much for making the seemingly difficult absolutely understandable ✌🏾

[@jonkiser2020]

I have watched this video 4 times in the past year. Learn something new everytime!

[@lawncaredad1883]

This video was absolutely amazing! Loved all the information, and how you break it down. Not going to lie, I'm going to have to watch it like 7 times to feel like I'm grasping the details, but it was very well put together! You should definitely do more videos like this one on other topics. Thank you

[@kevcollupy]

Agreed!

[@BertCollins]

Great video I never thought about weeds building up a resistance.

[@kylescottjohnston]

Going through your uploads this is my favorite one so far. I'll be changing my long term plan for my yard for sure.

[@smast16]

Thought I was coming to get good info on how to make my pre-em stretch better, only to leave learning I need to buy more. But seriously, thanks for the awesome knowledge Matt!

[@TheLawnGuardian]

Great content, Matt! Congratulations on 10k subscribers!

[@MGONZALES200]

Great information. So far above my head. I'm a DIY with a 2500 sq ft Tifway 419 yard. Wish I could narrow down my pre-emergent strategy to maybe 3 products to start off with. I spend hours watching TGF's videos. So interesting.

[@Troy-Echo]

Awesome video...a knowledge bomb I wasn't prepared for but do appreciate. Why there are any thumbs down is beyond me. I was aware we need to rotate herbicides, but I didn't have a clue that doing multiple modes of action at the same time was required. Common sense tells you that if you actually kill the weed the first time, the chances of building resistance goes way down, but it's good to point out for people trying to go cheap and use a single herbicide and single mode each time. Great point about noting that if push comes to shove, farms will win over lawns every time. That's one reason I killed any flowering weeds in my lawn before putting down insecticides - I don't want to kill any honey bees if I can help it. About the only thing more important than farms and farmers are honey bees.

[@seanmclaughlin7415]

The season is approaching!!!

[@carbon2turf]

Pendimethilin has shown to be effective again and can be rotated into a transition zone program. Interested to see studies of plants losing the same resistance in the same way we see resistance issues form. Great public education and video as always.

[@Cenlalowell]

Good information, I have prodiamine, simizine, diythpor, and pennant Magnum already. Now I find out about new groups of products. My wallet will be screaming.

[@Troy-Echo]

Yours? All I own is some 2, 4D and Quinclorac. I'm just in my first few months of trying to have a real nice lawn and because I had my soil bare and ready to put down seed, then had 3 weeks of very heavy thunderstorms, I had to postpone putting down my Zenith Zoysia seed...past the point of no return so I put my seed down at the end of August instead of the end of July. The Sod Farm that sold me the seed told me the lawn will probably be too new when it comes out of dormancy in the spring to put down pre-emergents so at least I have until next fall to spread out my purchases.

[@Doober80]

100 .... This is cool, thank you for the Cliff Notes version since I wasnt able to make it to St. Pete!

[@chadfleming8234]

Great Vid Matt! Super informative, Thanks for all the information!

[@robertpendzick9250]

Application is expensive, chemicals are cheap. (I'm speaking of cool climate turf!) The chart at ~3:38 only shows a 1 to 2 % increase in control on split applications but 2 applications doubles the labor. At ~26:32 you are advocating for 3 applications pre-emergent for what better control? And lastly you seem to advocate for broad application of post-emergent materials when most likely they could be spot applied or applied only if needed. Mix for your clients needs, not for your route.

[@gmcjetpilot]

WHAT ARE ROUNDS????? Round 1, 2 and 3 I gather is spring, early mid late? Round 6, 7 and 8 I gather is Fall early mid late? And Round 4 and 5 is summer???? Please educate me.

[@thelawnfix6100]

Thank you Matt! Love your channel!

[@johnoshea3349]

May I add, I've also always used less than maximum rate on al.ost all applications with excellent results. And I've also noticed too many "professionals " that have no idea on gallons/1000 or acre, calibration of any equipment, and actually understanding the importance of being knowledgeable. Watching many applicators out in the field is at times concerning.

[@andylong6589]

Ag side is getting tougher. I am a technical communicator here in Illinois for the Yellow equipment in the fields. check out the new Rogator C series and how the liquid logic system works. pretty slick.

[@Eric-2720]

I plan on using SCOTTS HALTS. "Pendimethalin" Can I spray and cover the whole lawn with MESO 40 "Mesotrione" if I have also used HALTS? If so how long should I wait until doing so? Or should I wait and spot spray. I had a massive crabgrass takeover last season. I live in Syracuse, NY so I have cool-season grass. Soil temps are in the 40s right now.

[@leonardjohnson7864]

Thanks for info. I need a copy of this for my lawn journal!

[@duncanbrown7082]

I’m just making a generic comment here regarding one of your podcasts I watched last summer. Advice given during the podcast was to make sure to thicken up a lawn before worrying about tackling Poa Annua. I followed that advice last fall and overseeded most of my lawn with more RPR seed. Since doing that I could not use a fall pre-emergent. My lawn is now close to 50% Poa. Needless to say, I’m very disappointed, frustrated, and stressed about the whole situation.

[@johnathanpinkerton]

Hey Duncan, would you like to come on an episode and talk about this with the guys? We could run through the struggles you're facing now and help make a plan if you'd like. Let me know! -JPink

[@Gary-cq8zw]

I have pachysandra beds around trees throughout my property. I'm a fan of the micro nutrients. I was using Jonathan Green. Will Dimensions or Prodiamine kill them?

[@bernardplanko6780]

how about ethofumesate as In Prograss or here in Europe Prograss Kemiron ? its said its primaraly for preventing Poa Annua maybe also Trivialis... it doesnt kill it is just slows it down as much as I see it , it stops it to flourish... Whats your opinion to use it now in Spring as a pre emergent, I did use it in the early Fall before Overseed and now in SPRING.. The label was unsure if I can use it on Poa supina but I didint saw any damage on it...

[@Supanova70]

I have a big feeling why i did not have a good renovation this sept. After the season before resto in sept i applied a split app and prob put to much down thus not much germination this sept. I am putting off prod. for the next 2 seasons and hit it with post stuff this spring and summer. Also ph was 5.9 which i will handle this fall and spring.

[@fisherslawncareservicellc2252]

I appreciate the inclusion of cool season turf ;)

[@btrook1981]

absorbing the knowledge, thanks for putting this out there

[@CHOPPER030279]

Done went and broke it alllll the way down. Thanks Matt.

[@dannyi9734]

As a DIYer , I need to get out the duck tape to keep my head from exploding. So much good information. Do homeowners have access to these various warm season pre-m's? (St Aug, in Fl) Thanks Matt

[@TheGrassFactor]

Some of them, yes. Atrazine I believe is the only one that is a RUP.

[@Gr33kG33k]

this is by far the best pre emergent info I have been able to find on all of KZbin, on a level all your own, well above the rest you forgot to shill, you didn't try to sell me a single thing in the entire video, who does that? Matt Martin does that. LCN can suck it

[@gorgonzola1761]

Really informative video Matt. Great Job!

[@Ben-yw8be]

I have a mix of St. Augustine and Bermuda. I live in Houston, TX. Matt, what do you suggest I should do as my program? I just bought a house, and I am a newbie to this. I recently bought a 4 gallon backpack sprayer and Prodiamine WDG. Should I add something to my Prodiamine to have a broader span of control? What would be the best product for that? Thanks, Matt. I love your videos.

[@PaulsPrimeCuts]

Hologram Matt is freakin me out😳.this is the problem with preemergent too few modes of action... until AG demands something else this is what we got. I think I am doing away with fall preemergent apps from here on out.

[@srb2323]

We own a house in Karns in Carpenter Ridge off Emory. Would love to pick your brain regarding how to get and maintain a nice lawn.

[@rbljackson]

Matt, I was reviewing this video as an overview for my upcoming year of Pre em applications. I looked into adding Simazine (Princep) to my Prodi amine application, but in reading the label, they say NOT to apply to soils with PH above 7.8. Well...we are right at that threshold. Can you give me the science behind this. If its a long explanation or discussion, Id love to hear more during a live chat if you cant throw a quick response in here. THanks SO much!

[@TheGrassFactor]

Simazine is much more persistent in high pH soils, which means much more likely to make it's way to water. The triazine family (atrazine, simazine) is very toxic to aquatic life

[@MichaelRei99]

Great information!

[@jerrenortonjr.7405]

Hello, I live in Florida and I have St. Aug, I put down liquid prodiamine about three weeks ago, i notice that I have weeds springing up, can I put down another weed control? When and what type, thanks in advance

[@TheLawnStripes]

Awesome video and knowledge as usual.

[@rbljackson]

Thanks matt! been waiting on these informative "high tech white board" videos....LOL. really helps. My question is this, HOW DO I COMBAT WIND?? Impossible in west texas to get my apps done IAW label. Less than 10 mps winds??? 1 day in 20!!

[@lionlawntreeandshrub568]

Hey Matt, how much dismiss would you use per acre if only putting it out on app 2 (along with prodiamine)? Also, would late February be too early for dismiss? I’m looking for pre-em help with nutgrass, kyllinga, and goose grass.

[@carlbird4737]

Hey Matt, Quick question have you ever used or can you use 2 4-d + dicamba herbicide with Tenacity? Tall Fescue lawn

[@mickeyt107]

What do you mean by "rounds?" Do these correspond to certain times of the year?

[@TheGrassFactor]

They correlate with temperatures. Pros use rounds to designate temperature ranges based on season

[@WilliamRayCook]

@@TheGrassFactor Is there a video or site where I can read more about these rounds and how to determine when they are? I have been learning a LOT from your videos slowly after losing my 10-year struggle against Poa Annua, and I have been unable to find a pro with anywhere near the expertise you show (I talked to two who thought Poa Triv was annual). So I am struggling to catch up on my own. You really do a great job with this and I wish you had a Patreon or something because I feel like I should be paying. As an aside I am curious if you have thoughts about using Aneuw PGR on Poa in the spring to suppress seed head production. A lot of people seem to think it is effective on Poa but I am unsure how much of it is really just confirmation bias. Thanks again from Annapolis, MD (Tall fescue).

[@geneduclos4003]

Got my prodiamine down Monday because of these crazy warm days we've been having, Dythiapyre in a month. Do you think it would be worth throwing down an app of Pendimethalin as well?

[@TheGrassFactor]

why?

[@geneduclos4003]

Oh, I see now... jumped the gun... same MoA. Crap!

[@onewiththings]

Is Cabon X going to be available with Prodiamine? That's what it looked like in your video last week.

[@douglaslodema6906]

Great info Matt

[@T1up4me12385]

Hey Matt, what are your thoughts on sureguard on zoysia? I know zoysia isn't on the label, yet research has been conducted on the "big 4" warm-season grasses...with tolerance being shown to 3 of the 4. Thanks for your input. -Eric

[@TheGrassFactor]

I'm probably not the one to ask. From a chemistry stand point, the reservation may be the ability for it to pull up material during dormant periods because it's not fully dormant. Given that it's an ultra active compound in the same family as sulfentrazone in theory it should be tolerant. I would reach out directly to NuFarm/Valent and see what they have to say about it.

[@jimmyjohn8008]

Trying an organic program this spring with black walnuts from nieghbors and corn protein from home depot... If I can keep the crab grass under control I'll be happy... Any other organic products I might be able to add as a pre emergent...

[@TheGrassFactor]

Corn gluten

[@jimmyjohn8008]

@@TheGrassFactor yeah its same thing as the corn protein I just call it that sence corn is gluten free... feel like I need to review my organic chemistry book

[@lambert1702]

Great video Matt! Why aren't people running more Pennant Magnum as a rotation with prodiamine?

[@TheGrassFactor]

Cost and high toxicity

[@full_metal2452]

The question I have is...when combining different modes of action for my cool season program do you run way lower rates of each since you mixing all together?

[@LawnDad]

Hey Matt - What are you thoughts on Tupersan for a pre-m on TTTF with little weed pressure? I know Spring is not the best time to add seed but I have a few thin spots and when I rip out my poa plants it will be easier to seed them.

[@TheGrassFactor]

Tupersam will work 👍

[@LawnDad]

Sounds good.👌🏼Thanks.

[@springguntunes]

I love this stuff.

[@jimmyfunyak1320]

Doing this commercially won’t adding all this up the cost drastically for the customer?

[@joshkelly449]

Matt. Can I run sureguard as preemergent on dormant bermuda grass at low rates per k??? 64 oz per k?

[@RVALawnLove]

On a cool season lawn, would spiking my prodiamine app with speed zone help?

[@TheGrassFactor]

Yes, speedzone has 2 moa so yes, assuming you have broadleaf weeds you're going after

[@RVALawnLove]

The Grass Factor correct, assuming the pre em won’t be effective against broadleaf

[@ChrisXCXCX]

If you combine pre emergent can you run half rates of both to be safe? Any more damage???

[@TheGrassFactor]

Depending on the chemistry, but don't expect two different a.i.'s to have combined effects at half rates. It will just be 2 products at half the performance

[@sonycrack1]

Could it be?

[@areafortyone]

I'll be throwing down my PreM this week, but I already sprayed my lawn 2 weeks ago for winter weeds with Atrazine, will a PreM so soon after damage my lawn?

[@TheGrassFactor]

Depends on mode of action. What pre em are you throwing down?

[@areafortyone]

@@TheGrassFactor Scotts Halts crabgrass preventer.

[@TheGrassFactor]

@@areafortyone you'll be fine

[@areafortyone]

@@TheGrassFactor Thanks Matt

[@karlgregory8190]

great video. thank you

[@gmcjetpilot]

A lot of these products are discontinued.

[@kmwjr9]

Great video

[@joefoote7523]

Anyone ever spray atrazine and prodiamine at the same time as a pre-emergent?

[@lawnrebel]

Dirty first

[@42swissmocha]

How would the air8 mix with echelon?

[@TheGrassFactor]

mix tro spray. don't let it sit over night

[@42swissmocha]

Do you think echelon is worth running for multiple modes of action? Will the 12oz rate followed by a 6-12oz rate of echelon help with other weeds post other than sedges such as baby crabgrass? The price point for echelon isn't too bad.

[@davidhintz1806]

The reason that pre-ems are not working is the same reason that roundup is failing. My farmer buddy is using 2x the label rate in his farm yard of glyphosate, and it is failing. Using a per-em every year is only good for the applicators. Anyone paying attention can see what looks like mutant weeds in residential yards.......but they are not as much mutants as they are adaptations.

[@TheGrassFactor]

Yes, resistance management 👍

[@PaintballFreak817]

By “rounds”, do you mean the months in a year? “Round 1 January” “Round 2 February” “Round 3 Ect.”

[@TheGrassFactor]

No, professionals typically use rounds to designate a weather period, not necessarily a date.

[@PaintballFreak817]

I.e, heat wave, cold fronts? Or perhaps a round would be warm consistent weather readings out to.. say a few weeks.. then they get hit with a heat wave for a week. Is this an example equivalent to going through two rounds? Im sure there’s more to it like when it comes to “temperature specific products” when it comes to these so called rounds. Maybe a quick video explaining to us, average joes could help? Lol Your videos are very helpful and I enjoy watching them all! Great content and I thank you for helping us out with your wisdom.

[@jimmyjohn8008]

Go dawgs

[@TheGrassFactor]

🕵️,😂😂 you mean VOLS? Just teasing buddy

[@gregpodrasky110]

Do you wanna spread fert like ringer lawn restore,Milo,carbon x, while fighting weeds, or is this like fight one or the other?

[@TheGrassFactor]

simultaneous

[@gregpodrasky110]

@@TheGrassFactor Great information and really helpful, I appreciate what you do and the content you provide, thanks for the reply...now a big Fan!

[@gregpodrasky110]

Any videos on adding surfactants to herbicides to increase availability...was reading a Penn State extension office page about adding ammonium sulfate to like 2,4d to increase herbicide effectiveness?... And how pH of water being used affects overall the herbicides performance?

[@GardenerEarthGuy]

It's better to grow roots and treat post vs go pre and grow stands you weaken. Pre has a place, but roots are really what we seek.

[@TheGrassFactor]

I agree to an extent. That's one of the giant benefits of also incorporating root stimulating products into your program, ie humic & kelp. it's a mitigating effect to the necessity of pre-emergent. from a commercial applicator perspective, you won't be in business long running post only all the time.

[@rey3472]

As a lawn care pro, it is a fine balancing act between damaging roots and stopping weeds. It is also a fine balancing act between damaging live grass and the weeds growing up in it. I routinely apply pre and post emergent products considered rather harsh for the type of grass to be treated. However, prior to doing this, vigorous growth of the turf is prioritized.

[@GardenerEarthGuy]

@@TheGrassFactor Biological should be the background of any program, to clean up the trash. Many products push biological out of balance - Many applicators focus on product and target, overlooking the main cultural tool being soil. Much better having plants in healthy soil compared to a scene that isn't. One cultural thing overlooked may be chelation and minor CHEMIGATION on residential scenes. Caring about long term condition of groundwater and soil far out way product application and resistance. The industry is evolving..... Cheers!

[@GardenerEarthGuy]

@@rey3472 The balancing act is the future... I watched an endangered species get listed in an urban setting twenty years ago, it changed everything. I adapted and turned lawns into fruit tree and veggie production and rolled the changes into a business model. The key to the green industry is to adapt, however that may be for your market. We all love agriculture and are moved by the power of chlorophyll.... Cheers!

[@rey3472]

@@GardenerEarthGuy My clientele is not looking for fruit orchards or vegetable gardens or wild areas. I am specifically hired to control weeds totally. Not to trim them, not to maintain them. I am hired to remove them from an area and keep them from coming back. While also maintaining a monostand of turf. I believe we are talking about totally different things here.

[@KD0LRG]

Space age video and computer white board. Was he real or AI

[@TheGrassFactor]

Subliminal messages throughout 😂

[@kylebihn411]

First

[@jacobpope11]

🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

[@lawncarevoyage8218]

hey matt where is your lab!!! great scientific explanations!!! keep going matt!! congrats 10k

[@ChrisXCXCX]

Run pre emergent with MSM and 24-D. 2 winter 2 fall booom.

[@geneduclos4003]

"We're done".... just had to get it out of your system, that's all. LOL

[@Jmfokken]

First?

[@geneduclos4003]

Working in front of a green screen? Need to wear a green tea so all we see is your head in the corner of the screen.😂

[@lushlawns8904]

He would be like the Cheshire cat

[@johnathanpinkerton]

Freakin' cane corso man.

[@fergferguson7370]

Impressive video..too much information for 99.9% of population ....

[@TheGrassFactor]

Grass nerds!!!

[@programmingchicago]

What? Lol.