Fishmen - Warhammer's Forgotten Deep Sea Race

Fishmen or Menfish as they are sometimes known are a race that were introduced in the early years of Warhammer yet never really expanded upon. Are they Beastmen as some sources claim? Do they follow an Eldritch God beneath the waves? Lets discuss their history and try make sense of it.
Fishmen - Warhammer's Forgotten Deep Sea Race
#warhammer #fantasy #lore
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[@TheGreatBookofGrudges]

Going into some deep lore today cos why not! Fishmen lore has always been fun to discuss and I've got a theory on how they came to being so let's chat!

[@ltcinsane]

I'm pretty sure the dwarf subs was mentioned in the earlier gotrek & felix novel where they go into the chaos wastes in the airship.

[@misterphoenyxx5159]

The Skaven also have a submarine in the Gotrek and Felix novels@@ltcinsane

[@kitmountaincat6102]

Eldritch horrors is already part of Warhammer, the 4 fractions of chaos and the vampire coast is the eldritch horrors, plague tentacles of nurgle living walls, succumbing to madness to forces of chaos in Warhammer want to steal your sanity and your soul normally demons just want your soul!

[@robertgronewold3326]

What always gets me is how they canonically make the Warhammer Fantasy world three times the size of earth, and yet they also filled the entire map rather arbitrarily. Just vast swathes of it loaded to the gills with a single faction instead of just leaving areas of it to mystery so that more factions could be added. At least they went to that mysterious land method more with the Age of Sigmar, but still.

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

I mean they want to sell armies

[@robertgronewold3326]

@@heitorpedrodegodoi5646 Yeah, think how many more armies they could be sell. haha

[@TheGreatBookofGrudges]

The problem is more GW doesn't know how to flesh out stuff a lot. For example in the Southlands we have humans (Southlanders), Apemen Beastmen, among a few others and yet they are barely represented in lore and nothing in tabletop

[@popburnsy3207]

​@@TheGreatBookofGrudgesit would have been nice to see some non-goat/ram beastmen

[@Kyle496]

​@@popburnsy3207 You forgot the cowmen

[@fungusfungi5900]

It’s such a shame they didn’t introduce menfish as units for the vampire coast

[@Razielts1]

Imagine they expand the VCoast roster by adding more zombie sea monsters for a more aggressive army

[@gloomycrayon355]

Giving them more high teir skirmish infantry to fight with the depth guard would be great, would be cool if they got unstoppable while in water

[@TheWildmanden]

That would be a great addition to their roster and a good excuse for a V-coast DLC

[@SadismIsGood]

There's a WIP Sharkmen mod but currently in hiatus

[@MrSkabrus]

man sharks would fit

[@mauroferrari5518]

The Lizardmen 6th, 7th, and 8th edition army books had bits on fishmen. They had settled the ruins of sunken Chupayotl. There was also a bit on Dwarf looters trying to raid the city, only to be repelled by fishmen themselves.

[@Razielts1]

I really want the fishmen to join as the final race in wh3, they would bring a unique race, plus more monsters for vampire coast to extend its roster. Imagine: Fishmen as infantry, lakemen as stalk + Range, sharkmen as monstrous infantry; Living crab riders, merwyrms, and many more sea creatures, oh the possibilities... THE KRAKEN!!

[@opusmagnus26]

Yes.

[@olafthemoose9413]

Maybe we'll get a Yin Yin + Fishmen Vampire Coast + Whatever Else at some point. Maybe another Lizard dlc

[@ShadowWolfRising]

Throw in the Ocean Goblins and Sharkmen for funsies.

[@opusmagnus26]

@@ShadowWolfRising Ocean Goblins are a thing? I know bog Goblins/boggards, but not ocean Goblins.

[@ShadowWolfRising]

Yup, I think they can even breath underwater.@@opusmagnus26

[@skyro0412]

The Fimir from Warhammer Fantasy are almost forgotten as well

[@opusmagnus26]

I want more Fimir units for Throgg alongside more troll units for him.

[@xiii0722]

One day we might get a norsca dlc. I think it would go well together with the khorne dlc. (only if they do a good job with the rework ofc) ​@@opusmagnus26

[@vexand6787]

I’d love to see a mod that adds the menfish to Total Warhammer 3 and gives them their own settlements in the ocean.

[@Izadirad1995]

Would make the oceans so much more interesting

[@Einhauser]

Another reference: WoC 7e army book (2008), pg. 38. Seafaring Chaos Lord Valdisson fought "scaly, web-fingered inhabitants" of a pyramid city that rises from the depths 1860 years before Sigmar

[@draieul5116]

I love idoneth deepkin in age of sigmar, an aquatic race would be so cool in total war warhammer

[@BearPawSwipe]

They have a really cool theme with all the ocean creatures. The models are real nice too.

[@marcbartuschka6372]

In the bonkers lore of Warhammer I would say a submarine is nothing to wonder about. In the man-o-war-Game there were even a class called Nautilus, submarines by the dwarves, armed with torpedos...

[@Vaegarion]

I think it would be better for the setting if they were an Eldritch Deep sea faction with a Lovecraftian style origin or background. The Warhammer world is rich in its diversity and too often things become streamlined to it being "just Chaos" which removes some depth especially because, for the sake of the model range Chaos gets pretty streamlined which has a cascading effect into newer pieces of media depicting them. The Fishmen should be terrifying and even the forces of Chaos should fear the water. Side note isn't there supposed to be things living in the sunken city of Chupyotl (I may have spelt that wrong haha)?

[@PoorManatee6197]

Agree, some cthulhu being in the deep seas of the world would fit so well in warhammer, we already have mermedus but he is a minor chaos god at least as far as norscans are concerned.

[@friendlyneighborhoodcrusad4242]

I think i remember reading about some lovecraftian ruins within the chaos wastes with carvings in the walls depicting fish-like humanoids in one of the malus darkblade books, the first one maybe.

[@kapitankapital6580]

The Lakemen are Beastmen, the Fishmen are not. Apart from both being loosely inspired by the Innsmouth monsters, the two are entirely unrelated. Assuming that the Fishmen are the race that inhabit Chupayotl, which I think is a fair assumption, it's clear that the Fishmen not only live in cities but also have sophisticated metalworking, as evidenced by the Helm of the Kraken. Both of these are antithetical to the character of Beastmen. Moreover, the helm is said to be "older than the race of elves", which means the Fishmen predate the Beastmen and are most likely a pre-Old One race. This is also thematically consistent with Warhammer lore; after the Old Ones came pretty much all the former races either went deep beneath the surface or into the most remote parts of the world, the caverns beneath Naggaroth being a logical place for such a race to go. Moreover, the Fishmen being a race that was beaten back by the armies of the Old Ones would also justify them having a grudge with the Lizardmen, which could explain why they were so ready to occupy Chupayotl (and possibly even have caused the tsunami in the first place).

[@charleslister8465]

Exactly - there is also Triton and the Sirens who may link in somewhere

[@chewdbacca4323]

In the GW game Man O War the dwalves had submarines called Nautilus. You can see them on the TWWH world map.

[@wmandthings]

I'd just finished painting some Nautilus when i heard that part, made me go 🤔

[@hitmanmaloe]

Lore dumps are always appreciated i listen to KZbin for like 8 hours a day so I will love it

[@adamzhariff7295]

I have been waiting for you to cover this for so long! Thank youuu

[@ragnarokivae6136]

Really like undersea creatures. Tbf the isoneth deepkin in AoS are somehow similar to then

[@Garret007]

Damn, fishmen. Eager to hear about this. Also, probably the thing that LoremasterofSotek unironically wants to have in total war warhammer, more than anything :p

[@michorizo84]

Keep up the lore videos, Nathan 👍

[@coaiemandushman1079]

7:50, does that mean that Snailmen could also exist since Swampires are a thing? That would be absolutely fucking sick. Nurgle-tier sick.

[@TheGreatBookofGrudges]

Nothing is out of the question tbh!

[@Just_Fez]

Hey it's those things loremaster of sotek talks about every chance he gets, FISHMEN!

[@farhadnikzad1514]

Great video! I love your lore videos.

[@tobiashagstrom4168]

An "undersea exploration vessel" is pretty vague, and is something that could easily exist in some form even with primitive technology. It could simply be a ship with one or more diving bell platforms that can be lowered off of it. A hose could be attached to the rim of the bell, with connected to a pump up-above, so that you can pump fresh air into the bell, with excess air bubbling out the sides. This would not have the capability for stealth that we associate with submarines, but it's stated to be for exploration, so a ship like this would certainly give you a lot of help to do that. However, it should be noted that the air pressure in the bell is still the same as the pressure in the water outside the bell, so there probably is a limit to how deep you can go with something like this. I recently watched a documentary on the fiasco that was the Swedish warship Vasa, that capsized and sunk on its maiden voyage. It was preserved so well in due to the composition of the water that it was still largely intact when it was salvaged over 400 years later. However, much earlier than that people started using diving bells to salvage most of the valuable bronze cannons from the ship, and we're still not even entirely sure how they managed to get so many of them out, but we know they used diving bell technology to reach the ship.

[@charleslister8465]

Dwarfs have had submarines since Man O War.....suprised that you are not mentioning Lokir Fellheart and "the undersea civilisation that predate the Elves" also Triton and the Sirens both of whom have been mentioned in WFRP4?

[@Grimaldus7]

Loved this vid. The old school lore vids are my fav. Big thumbs up!

[@true2view]

would be cool to have a fish people endgame crisis. Something new when you've conquered all you can, an invasion from the sea from a enemy you haven't fought before.

[@Tydyt]

5:20 - submarines are not actually a novelty, one was used by skaven (Thanquol) in another Gothrek and Felix novel (Elfslayer I believe) and there skaven mentioned they were not the first but that they stole it and upgraded it with warpstone

[@yayomh]

I like this tipe of lore videos, a bit longer is better

[@jomonkey2758]

One fun thing, lokhir’s mask was made by the fishmen

[@clockmonkey]

What I liked about D&&D was how you could end up fighting almost anything. One Minute it might be a Goblin Tribe, followed by some Polar Bears and Walruses, an undead Mammoth, Roman Legionaries representing a mighty Empire, something out of a Cereal Packet or just about anything. There could be a back story that made the choices more logical, or it could be a chaotic Realm where anything went. War Hammer moved away from that. The Emphasis shifted away from Role playing to massed Battles which generally made more sense but were less creative. Men Fish would have slid nicely into small scale Role playing as an encounter but creating an Army and the Lore would have been a stretch and I don't think it ever has happened and much to my regret probably never will. I did buy the figures in the 80s Loved them.

[@homelesspirate8404]

Didnt they have some deep sea elves in one of the fantasy settings? might have been after the end times though, but i swear i read something about sea elves who were coastal raiders

[@AndreaFasani]

I'll reply with an army of acquatic saurus from the 6th edition: +1 initiative and aquatic rule. Lol One day I'll find a way to play them and win

[@jasonsantos3037]

I do agree the Fishman of warhammer have some similarities with the deep ones from HP Lovecraft.

[@ziomekszary647]

I WOULD PAY ALL OF MY MONEY TO HAVE A FROG ARMY ON TABLETOP

[@keegobricks9734]

Murlock sound affect at the end.

[@canadianeh4792]

Menfish need naval battles. Not gonna happen but if it did i would forgive CAs recent mistakes

[@ShadowWolfRising]

Bring on the Sharkmen and Sea Goblins.

[@lucasgawayn566]

What about a video with a possible army list of Fish People? Just for fun, up to your imagination 😊

[@thomaskristensen2013]

I belive that the Fishpeople are their own thing and older than the storm of chaos that made the beastmen.

[@Marder-vl2gq]

Whats about Amanar. Could it be a god for them?

[@Coerciveutopian]

it's a good morning for wearing my froggy socks!

[@ShadowPhoenixMaximus]

I hope we get Fishmen in a Beastmen dlc. I can't imagine GW would make them a separate faction, but it would be nice to have new miniatures of them

[@trailblazerlazerrazerd9027]

I kinda figured that especially with all of the rates of death and regrowth from all of the factions in it. There's virtually no way the Empire and their allies - Bretonia and Kislev, no matter how strong and heroic and righteous the leaders like Magnus the Pious or Karl Franz would be able to muster armies large enough to even hold half of the chaos incursions that have come down on them through the centuries. Especially given how in the Chaos Wastes, time moves incredibly differently. If someone isn't protected by holy sigils and magic or whatever else, days can become months and the deeper you go decades can become minutes in reverse quite easily. The planet itself may be extremely similar to Earth, but that does not mean that it would be the same size or have the same amount of resources. Especially for industrious species like humans and dwarves. Elves probably do too but like the Eldar in Warhammer 40k they probably used magic to extract and find most of what they needed outside of food and territory. And before the first chaos incursion as well as the ongoing Civil War between their races of High, Dark and Wood Elves, they were probably a much more peaceful race overall. Still warlike but the crux of their society probably didn't hinge on the consistency of combat like it did. That means that Ulthuan is vast. As well as the rest of the Old World/Known World of the Warhammer Fantasy series. Which also leads me to believe the worlds created in the Age of Sigmar are about the sizes of Earth, Mars, Venus and smaller ones like Mercury or even whatever Pluto might be. It has to be 3 or almost 4 times of Earth, especially just to contain all of the more violent and chaos aligned factions like the Norsca, Hung and other Chaos Worshippers up in the Wastes or even the Beastmen and Skaven. If I had to guess the Fishmen were probably one of the original races that existed in the creation of the world before the Old Ones found it and began their Great Work created species like the Lizardmen or elevating the Elves in ancient times (similar to W40k) to eventually fight Chaos. But then the Polar Gates broke and Chaos spilled out anyway especially after they likely wasted time fighting the Celestial Dragons who founded Cathay (and others) in their bid to dominate the Known World for their own ends (whether they were good, bad, or in some interpretation of one or the other). I'm still hoping that other factions in relation to the real world will be added in. The Fishmen/Lakemen could definitely be added.

[@Xenomorphine]

"That's INSPECTOR Monkfish to you!" /fastshow

[@mistermangoman69]

It’s beginning to look a lot like fishmen

[@bruuuuuuuuhhhh]

I don't really enjoy everything being tied to Chaos. I would like the Fishmen, but with their own unique culture and feel besides Chaos fish creatures. Same with Khuresh. It gets a bit tiring when every cool or major race has to be Chaos aligned

[@ShadowWolfRising]

I agree.

[@thehandofgod2864]

If the beast men are just the result of farmers being fused with their animals then why aren't there chicken men? Plenty of farmers use chickens.

[@fitz3466]

I would love a fish man faction and want a religion based on the great maws massive rear

[@LordTheCyril]

What do you mean forgotten? The fishmen are all over age of sigmar.

[@tomaslafleur36]

Seapeople

[@whitefang0416]

Any Modders watching take note and create 😊

[@BBBHuey]

Does sound cool that there would be a Menfish army beneath the seas of the Warhammer world. And if they did worship some kind of deity, it would be surprising if it happened to be an Old One. The last surviving Old One after the destruction of the Gates and the daemon invasion.

[@greatyng442]

Fishmen would be cool, as long as they're not just more Chaos worshippers.

[@keegobricks9734]

You racist. They're called "People of gills".

[@bruuuuuuuuhhhh]

😢