Electric Vehicles: Arthur Berman, Pedro Prieto, & Simon Michaux | Reality Roundtable #1

[@treefrog3349]

Reality Roundtable. What a refreshing alternative (antidote?) to Meet the Press, Face the Nation and mainstream media in general!

[@anthonytroia1]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@ElyFrankes]

A serious flaw is the 28 day buffer. We have to do better at creating electricity as we need it.

[@pcka12]

​@@ElyFrankeswe cannot produce electricity or distribute it as we need it because of the fundamental physics!

[@pseudonym745]

​@@ElyFrankeswe have to build nuclear power in scale. Most modern types and put money into research. Transmutation, breeding reactors... All the money, that is wasted on pseudo-green BS...

[@treefrog3349]

I cannot thank you enough for your continuous, well-intentioned and enlightening presentations! For me, your podcast is an "oasis" of sense-making amidst an arid dessert of the propaganda that is generated by corporations, governments and even religions. Next to hydrocarbons, TRUTH is is our most rapidly-depleting "natural resource".

[@synthmaker]

I completely agree that truth is our most rapidly depleting natural resource. I'm amazed how so much of what is said in this video I would completely believe except for the fact that it goes completely against my everyday reality. I own an EV, I charge it overnight never increasing the demand on the grid because the demand means when you need a higher peak. I charge without a home charger, just plug it to my normal wall plug at 2kW, less than a kettle and still I'm able to charge 120 miles overnight which is a lot more than I use, I often charge on the 2nd or 3rd day. I'm putting zero extra demand on the grid itself. My electricity supplier Octopus Energy only supplies 100% renewable energy at off-peak 7.5p/kWh which allows me to drive at 2p per mile. I don't understand how what is said in this video paints a reality that is so much different from mine. There is so much untapped off-peak energy, when you have a flexible tariff with Octopus Energy you can often even be paid to use electricity during the night because of the excess. One of the top rules of the electricity grid is that it has to match peak demand, that's what matters, when an expert doesn't take this in account I lose trust. If peak demand is not changed, the grid is fine as it is.

[@RandyTWester]

​@@synthmakerWhat it meams when you buy a specific amount of renewable electricity is that whoever sold it to you will be buying an equal quantity at some time of day, or buying carbon offsets. Unless you live somewhere with an oversupply of zero-carbon electricity at night. For your situation, you are correct that you're not adding any peak demand load. But something, somewhere is likely burning more fuel, nonetheless.

[@synthmaker]

@@RandyTWester Here in the UK there is a lot of wind energy. I follow the national grid data everyday, I often find wind generating over 50% of all the UK's electricity, solar goes over 20% during the day and nuclear is steady around 16%. When I have my car charging, I have guaranteed cheap rate between 11:30pm and 5:30am but in reality when I plug outside those times my electricity provider has been deciding to sell at the cheap rate because of the excess electricity being generated which I notice most of the time happens when it's windy. You can also track the real price of electricity which is set for every half hour, you can get a tariff that allows you to always pay the real price rather than fixed. The real price often goes negative, every time that has happened recently I've noticed the weather being very windy. A lot of what I experience and see day by day seems to contradict what the majority of people think and say, I feel that I live in a different reality, like for example driving around at 2p/mile on my amazing EV etc It's fine if others don't want to believe it, it's their loss, I personally don't want to miss out.

[@thunderstorm6630]

you need to scale your situation up globally, a lot of people will need transportation, eg with ev's and this is not feasable, not enough resources for that on planet earth@@synthmaker

[@michaels4255]

@@thunderstorm6630 Before the end of the century, man (ie, the survivors) will be back to walking, or using horses if you have money. Oil, gas, U235, even coal will be almost entirely depleted, as will many minerals (which are ever more energy intensive to mine and refine).

[@Orielzolrak]

Hi Nate, great job gathering people who are into the field. I humbly want to make known a specific case that happens in the South of Spain, there is a complex that produces rice where a river (I think the Guadalquivir) is quite close to its mouth in the sea. This river is used to flood the soils where rice is grown. It happens that with the drought the river went down but they could carry out the cultivation, what they did not take into account is that when the level of the river fell, the sea waters entered the cause, it turned out that this fact caused the salinity to rise (I remember that It wasn't much), and the rice didn't prosper with that water that had a little more salt than the river in the past. A change that they did not see altered that entire system. And I remembered a video that talked about continuous growth and at the end it said: If we don't change the way we think and do things taking into account what continuous growth produces, nature will act in its own way, where it wants, as it wants and at the time it wants, and that will make the situation much, much more difficult saludos de Sudamerica

[@grenavoi]

Interesting. How about a paradigm shift where people in one or two countries in leadership roles, decide that realistic and knowledgeable governance is needed and needed NOW. They throw out the attorneys that know next to nothing about the science of what’s needed to combat climate change, and by coup, or other, install responsible, educated leaders they can actually make an impact on this problem.

[@robindumpleton3742]

The four myths of the climate apocalypse 😂😂😂

[@alanhat5252]

@@grenavoi we've tried realistic & knowledgeable governance & look what it got us! Oh wait, didn't it get us peace, prosperity & security?

[@stanmilgram8324]

***Here’s a reality… Wait until we go through the world depression that is coming our way!**** All economies are contracting, including China. We are going to see pain unlike 1929. Get ready people, we won’t hit any of these targets because they are not rooted in reality!

[@theboyisnotright6312]

People can be so foolish and short sighted.

[@Jag4biz]

Having listened to many days of lectures since taking courses @Oregon State University, 2012… This is not only perhaps the best session I’ve heard on Nate‘s program but one of the best if not the best I’ve ever heard ever & in terms of addressing key concepts foundation for understanding future, what is “really going on“ now

[@Jag4biz]

In addition to the superb insights gained from Art, Simon (and Nate)…I was so happy to be introduced by this program to Pedro and particularly perspectives gained from specifics he mentioned applied to Spain. ‘Truth’ about the claims of the Canary Islands etc. reveal there is no end, as if, misleading claims are the core, to gov/public pronouncements.

[@arvidsfar1580]

Arguably the best topical discussion on a truly life-changing topic I have ever heard. Thanks to the four of you!

[@Ritastresswood]

To decarbonise the military, my recommendation is that all soldiers will work from home! It will have the unintended consequence of peace on earth!

[@johnlesesne1604]

Sure. All you have to do is get other countries and splinter groups to do the same.

[@ScaryMary-7]

DARPA is sadly working on rewired consciousness via magnetic lazers ex to have thoughts control soldiers actions. Also screwing up their thoughts like MK ultra in their NEAT program 😮. Instead of pushing thoughts of peace ✌️ and love for all!

[@Mikey-mike]

Good one.

[@RexWeylerMusic]

Once again: Excellent presentation, stunning data, rigor, and clear analysis. Such a refreshing contribution to the Internet chatter.

[@torsteinholen14]

O that internett chatter, to numb the brain, put on the blinders and keep on ;)

[@alanhat5252]

@@ihateexcessivelylongandpoi4490 human population is about to peak & then decline & there's plenty of resource to support that, what there isn't is distribution but that's a socio-political issue not a natural one.

[@ChrisW-cn7pb]

What a powerful force of experts, a real Dream Team Collection , the issues are difficult to work out and understand, but thank you for taking the time to actually speak about them.

[@unclesamshrugged2621]

Wow, such an important and sobering discussion! I am grateful for the brilliant analysis and I will also call my psychologist for a session...

[@mrrecluse7002]

Do a session for me too.

[@UnhingedBecauseLucid]

You can save some money by going with red wine and some wholesome comfort food. Just pick a dry one to lessen the incidence on insulin... ... you're welcome ;-)

[@paulwhetstone0473]

Don’t worry about it. When there’s no hope left, there’s always hopium. Lol

[@paulam6493]

😄

[@stanmilgram8324]

***Here’s a reality… Wait until we go through the world depression that is coming our way!**** All economies are contracting, including China. We are going to see pain unlike 1929. Get ready people, we won’t hit any of these targets because they are not rooted in reality!

[@martinacusack9867]

Thanks for this #1 series, I look forward to more discussions like this.

[@rodr5099]

Thank you Nate, I'd like to offer a perspective from South Africa where our state owned electricity utility (Eskom) is is failing, Our generation, transmission and distribution infrastructure is in terminal decline and collapsing by a combination of corruption, inepitude and lack of maintenance. Loadshedding for 8 to 14 hours is a daily reality and on top of that we experience frequent power faiures due to breakdowns and copper cable theft. Our government has done its best to discourage EV ownership by imposing a 43% tax on them initially when they first appeared about 12 years ago. Now this tax is about 23% - the same as an imported luxury ICE vehicle. Our public transport is poor to non-existant and commuting on a bicycle (which I used to do) has become too dangerous to consider. Car ownership here is necessary for survival if I am to practice my profession as a professional engineer specializing in construction materials. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists recently posted an article on sustainability where it mentioned that most OEMs had elected to only build high end luxury EVs and not cater to the mass market because this was more lucrative. Here we can only buy expensive brands of EV (BMW, Jaguar, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo). I have test driven several and expressed a serious interest to buy one subject to the OEM answering my long list of important questions which includes questions about battery life and battery replacement including cost of battery replacement. The response is always the same. They either ignore all my questions or half-heartedly answer only some. BMW and a couple of others have gone as far as to say publically that their batteries (which they claim are guaranteed for 8 years) "are not viable to replace but are designed to last as long as their cars". I interpret this as "we sell disposable cars that you will need to chuck in the trash when the battery fails after 8 years". How will we ever live sustainably if everything we buy has such planned obsolescence built into it from conception? I'm 57 years old and I still have all the vehicles I ever bought in my lifetime including a tiny little pick-up truck (simple Nissan 1400 Bakkie that weighs a little over 700 kg) that has done 300 000 km and is 34 years old. I once read that the car with the most milage accumulated was a Volvo that had traveled nearly 4 million km - it traveled around the USA from auto show to auto show. I can't see any of today's EVs breaking those records. In desperation, a couple of friends and I ended up converting ICE cars to EVs with the help of a small startup in Johannesburg. What was supposed to have been a 3 month project ended up taking 4 years in my case - to convert a little Toyota Yaris with a 60 kW motor and 27 kWh LiFePO4 battery. The technical challenges were significant. We've been driving it now for 4 years and have done more than 52 000 km to date. Each year it has out of operation for about a month while I have had to resolve technical problems and undertake difficult repairs. My two friends have experienced similar challenges. One has been without his car for the past 18 months while a new inverter was sourced from Brazil and now a new problem has manifested that nobody can resolve. Don't believe the rhetoric that EVs are simpler and more reliable - that's simply not the case. Our batteries are starting fail. My friend with the oldest conversion has now got to replace his battery after 8 years and 30 000 km. It failed suddenly and with little warning. What has become evident is that these batteries have a limited calendar life irrespective of how much (little) we use them. Normal people who commute say 5 000 km/yr can never come close to achieving the claimed battery life cycles. In my own case I have a 5 year old LiFePO4 battery that is starting to fail with less than 7% of its claimed 7000 operating cycles over its claimed 15 to 20 year design life. The accelerated charge/discharge testing upon which such claims are made is obviously far divorced from reality and a very poor indicator of what the user can expect. With such limited life, I calculate the energy cost to run these EVs will be 3 to 5 times as much as running the ICE equivalents on petrol/gasoline assuming we all charge with PV like I do and that this electricity is free. The truth is that battery technology has not progressed significantly in the past 120 years. To illustrate there is a photo image in Chris de Decker's Low Tech Magazine of the Bailey Electric Roadster (made by General Electric) in 1906, with a proven 190 km (100 plus mile) range! The truth is that there are finite limits to battery technology. I have a couple of peer reviewed papers that show this clearly using thermodynamics. What we have right now (in terms of energy density) is not that far away from strict thermodynamic limits. We are limited by the periodic table of elements to those most reactive metals - lithium and sodium. As far as I know we are no longer discovering new elements.

[@escaped7036]

Great post.

[@DavidMarcotte-xx1nw]

Thanks for sharing.

[@mayamichelle6741]

Thank you for sharing your experience!!

[@laurisafine7932]

Imagine if someone could build a car from a plant, running it on oil from that plant, too. Oh wait, Henry Ford did it. But some fUNny people lacked the imagination to train sniffer dogs to smell the diff btw hemp and marijuana, and banned it. Oh well, Hemp For Victory, Throne of the Lamb... see pen-ultimate bit of the Book of Revelation, NT... tree with 12 flowers, that'll keep us busy, all year round. [p.s. Stuur groete aan Mannetjies LeRoux]

[@tomoconnor3051]

SUPER VALUE

[@NutellaBC]

I am stunned by the lack of conversation around nuclear energy or about subsidies for remote working, which would substantially reduce car, land and building usage.

[@matthewthomas7824]

First video on the climate I haven't screamed at! Thank you

[@_in_the_third_grade2101]

This podcast changed my life, and this video in particular. I've referred so many of my friends to Michaux's presentation at the beginning of this video. Nothing short of shattering for my vague sense that stuff was at least kinda-sorta moving forward. Now I'm thinking about moving to a farm....

[@LocutionJulia]

Hi Nate, I have stumbled onto this conversation by fortuitous luck. I would like to thank you and all the participants for such a quality, rational discussion. I shall now proceed to listen to all your previous discussions. Best

[@thegreatsimplification]

You’re 100+ videos behind. Welcome :-)

[@GG-si7fw]

The math for the mining is off using flawed assumptions, like the energy density of batteries stay the same, only a single NMC chemistry, 532 or 811, whereas in China, over half of the EV's sold use lithium iron phosphate chemistry, using no nickel, cobalt or manganese, but do use more lithium. I've watched several videos from Nate and Art and am disappointed in the flawed argument considering they're usually great at the details.

[@GG-si7fw]

I don't understand why tire recycling is concern with EV's only. Why didn't this get handled with ICE vehicles?

[@griffinmoore]

Really like this format. Thanks for the discussion.

[@anthonytroia1]

Cool format. Very engaging.

[@boombot934]

Thank❤🌹🙏 you👍, Nate, Simon, Arthur and Pedro. I completely understand that electric⚡ cars can't solve all problems on this beautiful planet🥀🌏🌍🌎🌹

[@JaseboMonkeyRex]

I forgot to mention in my comment just the immense gratitude I have for all of your work and the integrity each of you show in all of your work. Thank you for helping us understand the issues in far greater clarity .❤

[@eclipsenow5431]

INTEGRITY! Let me explain something about Simon Michaux to you and get back to us on that integrity claim you just made. MICHAUX REJECTS PUMPED HYDRO AS TOO LIMITED: he says there are not enough sites, but in his PDF he admits it is the cheapest way to store grid power for weeks. We’ll come back to Michaux in a moment. For now I need to introduce you to Professor Andrew Blakers. Blaker's has street cred. He's won the Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering (think Nobel Peace Prize - but for Engineering). Blakers has satellite mapped the earth and found that there are abundant sites for OFF-river pumped hydro, which is a closed loop recycling system that has minimal impact on fragile river ecosystems. You build the reservoirs and pipes and turbine room all at once (faster and cheaper than on-river!) and then pump the water in from a nearby river when finished. Cover in solar panels to reduce evaporation and you have a closed loop system. Pump a bit more water in every few months to top-up. There are plenty of sites with decent heights around 400 to 800 metres. The world has 100 TIMES more than it needs. Pick your best 1% of sites and you're done. They have identified the 616,000 best sites around the world. re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ So why does Michaux complain that there are not enough sites? His PDF doesn't give a source, but he lets it slip right here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gnPaY4KMjMmKf7M Get this. He cherry-picked a viability study about pumped hydro in SINGAPORE! I laughed out loud. A small island flat as a pancake! Their highest hill is only 15 metres! Gee - I wonder why they had trouble finding enough sites!? (Facepalm!) I call this dumb trick “Painting the world Singapore.” Give up on Michaux and instead watch Professor Blakers do a global tour of the TRULY ENORMOUS potential storage from this cheapest grid 'battery' of water and gravity. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX3OZJiiqpitnJY JUST THIS SOLUTION ALONE removes his problematic 4 weeks grid batteries, and there are 3 other huge SOLUTIONS we will use as well. (PST: Look up sodium batteries - which are 30% cheaper than lithium and CAN be big and clunky if they're not going into cars but being used to back up the grid a bit! But they're only for 2 hours - we need cheap Pumped Hydro for a few days just because it can be so cheap!

[@JaseboMonkeyRex]

@@eclipsenow5431 pfft... Mate he's addressed this issue ... You really need to relax and loosen the grip on your righteousness...

[@eclipsenow5431]

@@JaseboMonkeyRex Really? How has he addressed the issue? Simon's reply to "Just Have a Think"? He claims filling these dams will use 50% more fresh water than the human race currently uses annually. But again - that 50% more is based on Simon’s preposterous suggestion that we need 4 WEEKS of storage. We don't. Overbuilding renewables for winter reduces realistic storage down to 2 days. Simon also compares that 50% to the water we use annually. There's the trick. This consumption isn't annually. It's a one time deal! So if we go with his absurd suggestion that we store 4 weeks of pumped hydro water, consider that it's going to take at least 25 years to build the Energy Transition. That’s only 2% extra water per year. Do an EIS on each river to determine the filling rate based on local ecological concerns, and I'm happy. Once the dam is full, cover it in floating solar panels to reduce evaporation. The evaporation from PHES will be SO LOW it SAVES 90% of the water we currently lose to cooling thermal coal plants! Simon conveniently ignores all this to support his doomerism - but he is so keen to promote his manifesto he constantly appears on alt-right channels like Australia's SKY NEWS which are far right anti-climate sceptics - not Degrowthers. So Simon is siding with the bad guys in this whole misadventure. NEWSFLASH SIMON: Sodium batteries are a thing - batteries from sea-salt. They're are less flammable, less toxic, and a third less expensive than lithium. And there's millions of years of it in the ocean - AND it's recyclable. Also, LITHIUM extraction from seawater is almost economical. Google it! Also, there are grid-scaled liquid-flow batteries being manufactured from super-abundant, recyclable materials. Google it!

[@mrrecluse7002]

Arthur said, "I don't mean to be a tree hugger here." Well, we'd better start caring that much about other species, as much as we do our own, in this ongoing mass extinction of our better half. But, of course, we won't.

[@chrisruss9861]

Heartfelt agreement.

[@mrrecluse7002]

@@chrisruss9861 Maybe it was a slip of the tongue. But it never fails to rub me the wrong way. Instead of it being something radical, we should know that it really is our better half, and we have failed it miserably. It will be our undoing.

[@JamesFitzgerald]

@mrrecluse7002 We are NOT in the midst of a mass extinction. Total nonsense. Note that 99% of all species are extinct. If you want to protect eagles from extinction you better oppose all wind farms - they are bat, bird, and insect killers.

[@BrianFeugret]

Thank you for your work and the high expertise of your guests.

[@Seawithinyou]

I so Love Simon common sense in your Face observations! Especially when it comes to being sunnier in Summer than Winter lmao etc… I have learnt So much regarding Energy Blindness Let alone the past used by date power grids which are useless in supplying electricity to these green energy dreams! Great podcasts guys am Watching now from NZ🕊🌞🌏💖

[@1HorseOpenSlay]

Oh no!😮 100 years ago, my grandmother was riding a horse to school. It is looking like 100 years from now our great grandchildren, will be riding a horse to school. What a strange interlude this was.

[@timtam2126]

Great - love the format. Important to have credible people to test/disagree/balance.

[@AndrewCharnley]

To all of you: It was a pleasure to listen to your reasoning and the honesty that you harnessed that with, likely due to your maturity, provided a foundation for believability in all that you described. Nate, you have a knack of asking sharp questions, not for the sake of looking good but to ease a good response for the Roundtable guests. Truly excellent content. Appreciated and enjoyable too...!

[@brandonsmith6965]

the upshot is that the average consumer is going to be priced out of car ownership entirely. kinda like private jets are now.

[@Seawithinyou]

Can’t Wait for Lizzie to hopefully join you guys for Nate Part 2 of this very Enthralling Eye Opening Podcast! Greatly informative Learning all this Energy facts gets me Energized to greater Wisedom Thank You all dearly 🕊🌏❤️

[@stephenboyington630]

Thank you all so much for the presentation.

[@Seawithinyou]

Putting on English Subtitles for Pedro’s fast pace talking helped me tremendously 😇❤

[@frankblangeard8865]

I changed the playback speed to 0.75.

[@snorttroll4379]

I increased it to 2x.

[@jonathanfargo457]

Thank you for diving into this Essential format…I’d been thinking these past several months that a Steve-Allen-Meeting-of-Minds in real-time format is, again, Essential at this time, in the web of interconnected crises/callings for wide understandings and evolving action plans on all scales in economy, ecology, health/vitality/medicine, etc etc. BRAVO for leading the way on this, Nate and respected and much appreciated guests! Keep ‘Em coming and we’ll keep sharing widely in the spirit of love for our planet and shared human pain-beauty unfold ment.

[@wanchattheeranaew9893]

Great conversation that hold no barred on the truth at all. However, my real fear now is current abnormal weather events that will put our food production system to a test. We can kiss good bye for any other conversation if severe food shortage hit globally (which could be sooner than most people expect).

[@mrrecluse7002]

On our merry way to 2C, and most likely beyond, yes, that will be what stops us in our tracks.

[@paulwhetstone0473]

Make room for El Niño for the next three years. Lol

[@dbadagna]

And, in the face of all this, try to keep all 440+ of the world's nuclear power plants safely maintained in perpetuity.

[@wvhaugen]

Look up the term landrace. I have been working on crop landraces for over twenty-five years. There are also plenty of techniques us small-scale sustainable farmers are developing. Start with a deep dive into landraces.

[@mrrecluse7002]

@@dbadagna Yeah, that's as much an elephant in the room as overpopulation.

[@jonathantrautman]

I don't know, I kind of think you owe it to us to have one of these round table discussions very seriously in full length either about how we might actually mitigate post growth and embrace voluntary degrowth rather than just taking postgrowth as a foregone conclusion, orrrr please have a round table discussion in full about how we can best prepare for post growth (I know you always ask your guests for their personal advice and this gets to this end) Thank you guys for seriously leveling up the discourse

[@dbadagna]

According to Guy McPherson and others, it can't be prepared for; thus they propose the concept of global hospice. Enjoy every minute and do all the good you can do for others and the planet in the meantime.

[@klondike444]

@@dbadagna McPherson is a nasty, narcissistic liar who tells people we'll all be dead in a few years so they should just give up any idea of mitigating the coming suffering. Of course as time passes he has to keep pushing back his predicted year of extinction in order to continue his grift.

[@wvhaugen]

You make a good point, but there have been counterculture people working on solutions since 1966. They are too busy doing the manual labor of building alternatives to market themselves. Think of yourself as a researcher who has to find them. You could also become one yourself. It is hard work and engenders lots of scorn from other people so you have to develop mental toughness too.

[@tomasfontes3616]

Exactly. I agree with all the points made in this talk right up to the point where I started hearing arguments for degrowth... Then I got a bit off foot...

[@jonathantrautman]

@@tomasfontes3616 I accept that degrowth or postgrowth will happen I would like for us to try to make degrowth happen rather than just declare it impossible

[@A3Kr0n]

I was wrong in 2008 when gas was $4.65/gal. and heating costs were skyrocketing. I thought we hit peak oil, but I was wrong. Fracking shale has saved our butts for a few years, but the piper is coming due soon.

[@dbadagna]

Future generations are going to regret the massive pollution of deep aquifers with toxic chemicals (whose exact composition is kept secret from the public), as well as radiation, that such large-scale drilling has caused.

[@edsteadham4085]

No they won't. Fact is pollution has decreased greatly in my lifetime. As people get rich thr environment gets cleaner.

[@erikolsen6269]

Great content. Well reflected and spoken

[@jennysteves]

Great new format in Nate’s already varied and generous collection. So much to unpack here. I appreciated this entire respectful conversation. And I loved Art’s closing comments. I hope that in the future he will not feel embarrassed to call himself a tree hugger. I also hope that a future Reality Roundtable will touch the 3rd rail combo of human overpopulation, overconsumption and overshoot.

[@paulwhetstone0473]

I agree.

[@Deep_Sorcery]

I really enjoyed the new format and seeing multiple experts have a discussion on a topic. Hope to see more.

[@MrJoker42369]

Excellent podcast! Simon Mixhauh has become one of my new favs lately. Excellent point about consumers not even being able to buy electric cars when there are perfectly good cheap ICE cars out there for much cheaper. I've been waiting to hear someone make that point for a while. Few people on the whole ever even buy a brand new car, how can we expect 330 million americans to just blow ~30-60k on a brand new electric car?

[@MrKristianson]

I would read up a bit more on Simon Michaux - his estimates are off by about 10x...

[@MrKristianson]

That's not what everyone asks - as long as the ones WHO Are able to buy a new car today buy an electric we are all good.. And there are about 80 million of them every year who can afford to "blow" 30k-60k - and Once those who can afford that much want a new car say 5 years later those electric cars will be second hand and cost perhaps 10-25k.. much easier - they also will require much less maintenance than old fossil cars, and will pollute less - a win/win for everyone..

[@harveytheparaglidingchaser7039]

Well they are perfectly happy to blow $50.000 on a Ford F150 , current bestseller in the US. I find the price argument funny when I see so many expensive, new ICE cars on the road

[@formxshape]

Essential listening 👂🏻

[@kurtklingbeil6900]

Exactly... The amount of whattaboutist comments from amateur armchair anal-ysts clinging to their little niche pet technology is somewhat discouraging on this platform on which the truly clueless mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers are vastly under represented. One might expect that given the expertise, people listening here would take time to actually listen and comprehend the scope and scale of the problems with our hyper-consumptive hyper-emissive psychosociopathic eco-cidal cronyCorpiratist capitalist trickle-up infinite-growth dominator cult-ure and not rush to nitpick and toss their casual half-baked "ideas" into the ring. Whattabout upgrading and robustifying those "ideas" into rebuttal grade material with numbers and charts and evidence and compelling coherent argumentation? Classic "my opinion is just as good as your knowledge and expertise" syndrome...

[@andym996]

Great format, thanks guys for all the information you share…im in my last term of an environmental science degree and ive learnt more from you content Nate then the degree work! 😉

[@EmeraldView]

That would be a frustrating field to be in in this world.

[@Seigo]

Great conversation. love Simons’ clarity of thought and expression.

[@David-l4p7d]

I listened to what you had to say and took some notes. I am reminded by your gathering here of the age of limits conference I attended in 2014 at Four Quarters Interfaith Sanctuary. Dennis Meadows was one of the speakers. This was my introduction to the limits of growth. I was working for a fortune 500 company at the time and so it was a cultural shock to attend and listen to completely different perspectives related to continual growth. What I was wrong about at the time was my prediction that I would not live to see major ecological downsides to continuous growth.

[@dbadagna]

Many of us are lucky to have, so far, avoided getting flooded, wildfired, or tornadoed out of our homes, but, it seems, it's only a matter of time until such disasters reach each of us.

[@brainzend]

This was fantastic. Love the format, the peeps and the content. Please do repeat. Often!

[@edwardbirt7817]

35:11 very interesting and important discussion on the reality of physical limits thankyou. So much gold here but I really loved Pedro’s description of the madness of our car addiction starting at 32 minutes mind blowing stuff!

[@richardbriggs3480]

1. God has already told us there will be an end point. 2. I think politics (concentration of power) will bring us down long before we run out of natural resources. 3. The human desire to survive using the resources we have (ie. Technology, innovation, etc.) should not be discounted. 4. An essential element to survival is people, such as yourselves, discussing/brainstorming this information with as many others as possible. This was a great discussion and I hope these conversations continue about this and all of our other problems. You brought data and gave perspectives that were focused and necessary to help lead to reality based solutions.

[@franciscom.3692]

Awesome! thanks for bringing this to us. Also I enyoyed the four myths from Simon, especially number 4: "Europe we are a geopolitcal power". My godness 😂 p.s.: I am from Spain too.

[@formxshape]

Move to the remote countryside, preferably at an elevated point, mountain side, but not too high up. Then you have some trees, some sun, some land. Get some chickens, a donkey to plough the land, a goat etc. Increasingly this lifestyle is appealing….

[@alanhat5252]

@@formxshape it turns out ploughing is not necessarily beneficial.

[@alanhat5252]

Europe isn't but the EU is very definitely a geopolitical power, it's just not into taking over or directing foreign countries.

[@markbowenagates1987]

Woah!! An allstar show! What a treat!

[@PullTogetherNow-f5t]

Thank you, gentlemen, for presenting the real world reality of the challenges we face. Question: Do you have graphs that include the amount/source of water required to mine/produce/distribute our current and alt energy options and critical needs? Thank you for your professional presentation without on F-bomb!! We must hold our standards and values high, respectful, and professional as we proceed forward together. Looking forward to the next conversation.

[@marksmith5360]

That’s

[@marksmith5360]

What we need to hear

[@supermash1]

Really great discussion. Very well moderated as well. Also - great picture you have beside you there Art.

[@liamtaylor4955]

Great video. I like Pedro's analogy: with EVs we're trying to build the house from the roof down.

[@DavidMarcotte-xx1nw]

That was amazing! Thank you Nate. First time I listen to Pedro, he's great!

[@DarrellCalhoun]

New subscriber, thank you 😊

[@jjuniper274]

Sharing with my adult kids. Thanks.

[@fraktalv]

Nate, this is such a wonderful channel providing a much-needed and useful sensible perspective about the social dynamics! thank you! Sharing this with all of my friends

[@karenkoerner6015]

Well done, gentlemen.

[@AnniesEggs]

The issue of the price of second hand cars is a real one. In the UK I can hardly believe how expensive second hand conventional cars have increased over the last decade. As is the cost of replacing the battery in a decade old electric car. I think I'll keep running my 30 year old SAAB.

[@radog7769]

Minute 11: coal in Spain to balance the power grid? I hope the rest of the discussion is more accurate. Spain uses nuclear, hydro and gas as baseload. Coal is a tiny tiny proportion.

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

Wasn't he referring to the Spanish archipelagos, Balearics and Canaries, when he said that?

[@Fox-in-sox]

Nate I found this conversation purely by luck and found it fascinating. Thank you for posting this. I’ll be subscribing and looking forward to going through your existing video collection. Many thanks.

[@cal48koho]

If there are four smarter people in the world than these guys, please tell me who they are.!! It is hard to overstate the quality of this systems analysis of fossil vs RE with its myths and assumptions. Nate's use of the word "peak affordability" as the prime determinant went right to the heart of the problem. What none of them mentioned was that the wealth of the world comes from the wealth of these fossil fuels because of their function in providing cheap energy to do work. When that fossil wealth declines or becomes unaffordable so will all that energy derived activity. No more oil, no more money, no more work. Thank you GUYS!!!

[@rickricky5626]

very good talk........i learned as usual........good stuff guys

[@ashleybennett4418]

Economists are the root of the problem

[@snorttroll4379]

Nope. Its the people directing the media to brainwaash the peoople who in turn demand expensive energy because they have been scareed. Politicians exploit this for power. Just met the market decide

[@jenniferrayburn1011]

I agree with Arthur Berman. I live in North Carolina where there is a tremendous amount of growth occurring. The devastation to our ecosystem is heart breaking and all around us.

[@supermash1]

I agree with you completely. The knowledge that we as a species are destroying the very ecosystem of the earth is deeply disturbing. I live in Canada and there is tremendous growth in the population of the cites here too due to extremely high immigration. That the forests and rivers where I grew up and came to know nature are now housing subdivisions is soul crushing. If mankind pays a price to the creator it will be for destroying creation.

[@SolaRoof]

Nate, at the end of this very informative conversation you ask how the consensus of your round table could be wrong and the first to reply is by Simon, who at 139;30 says [paraphrased] “what if one sector evolves ... that scales quickly to reach everyone on the planet ... I think it unlikely ...but what if” - and this is what I would like to respond too. Here’s the example for this scenario in the architectural (all built-environments, from our homes to industrial and commercial buildings) sector where my SolaRoof inventions (my 6 issued USA Patents) radically reduce cost of construction while being self-cooling and heating while operating off-grid. SolaRoof, invented in Canada, can deliver on this claim (Norwegians are the early adopters) and has been found to reduce building environmental control (cooling equivalent to air-conditioning) by 10x compared to heat-pump technology. But, the big surprise is that a highly transparent roof is used (transparent architectural fabric is used for the building envelope) and additionally, the Closed Controlled Ecological Environment is dependent on a living plant leaf-canopy beneath the SolaRoof that possesses the thermodynamic (biological) process that easily and simply captures and converts substantially the entire radiant energy of the sunlight entering the building - providing a new Biodynamic pathway for conversion and storage of high grade and low-grade thermal cool and warmth. As a result, there is also the regeneration of pure Water-from-air (from within the controlled environment) as the closed atmosphere gives up the plant transpired water vapour as condensation on the interior skin of the liquid cooled building envelope. Water working is key to this system performance and this included the necessary component of a large Liquid Thermal Mass within the building (in-ground, below the 1st floor level. With this approach, the building itself can be very lightweight and as we have dematerialized the building envelope (our fabric skin is very strong but has nearly no mass) we can also dematerialize the building structure (including very lightweight floor structures) and thereby much less materials (concrete for example) are used and prefab buildings are easily shipped and installed. If we build our homes with this ecological architecture, then the plants we grow within the controlled environment can produce abundant food in hot or cold climates and this human habitat is able to provide effective adaptation to, and also provable mitigation of Climate Change. The localization of regenerative life support in our homes and communities that includes secure fresh organic food - using Aquaponics with Aeroponic plant culture systems - reduces greatly the transportation and spoilage of food, including freezing, refrigeration and cooking requirements. There are so many ways in which SolaRoof is a game-changer - please put me on the hot seat - challenge me!

[@sociocyberneering]

Awesome work Nate… I could not imagine any one of them missing from this conversation.

[@a.d.knight5695]

Nate, What I have struggled with for years now is the focus on something that doesn't make much of a difference: EVs. With personal transport only representing 7%-8&% of Carbon emissions, it is really hard to get behind a movement that, at best, promises to cut that in half when looked at with any sort of rational cradle-to-grave analysis. We can easily achieve that sort of reduction today, with existing technology and infrastructure, just by building and buying more fuel-efficient vehicles. There are a number of 50-60 MPG ICE vehicles in existence today. In America, we don't buy them. Hell, we won't even import them. (Fiat Panda, anyone?) We could mandate a 50 MPG new vehicle requirement. Not a CAFE or penalty scheme, simply 50 MPG, or it doesn't get approved for sale. We could limit horsepower on trucks or even require trucks to return to the two-door working format rather than the four-door luxury machines they have become. We could increase tax on gasoline and diesel, as we know that high fuel prices are effective in diminishing use. Take that extra tax money and throw it into public transport. We could do a lot of things easily and immediately, with no great demand on the electrical grid, mineral mining, new infrastructure, or anything else. We don't. And we won't. Thus I conclude that since we are unwilling to take these very easily accomplished steps, there is NO HOPE of us pulling together to do something vastly more difficult.....like redesigning all of modern society to function on a fluctuating electrical grid. Any politician that was honest about this and made a sincere effort in this direction would be voted out by those that want their big SUVs, cheap fuel, and the ability to offshore all their problems. Which is basically everyone. We will not accept a solution that does not allow us to have our cake and eat it too. I believe it was Joseph Tainter who said, during the Q&A session after a college presentation, that he believed that, despite our best efforts, we would continue to use fossil fuels until we are forced to stop by lack of supply. Thank you to everyone on the roundtable. I have really enjoyed the discussions.

[@paulwhetstone0473]

We are yeast. Lol

[@bumblebee9337]

Abandoning the private ownership model would increase the duty cycle of vehicles, meaning fewer vehicles would be needed. But we won't go that route either.

[@edsteadham4085]

You want me to drive a freaking fiat panda? Been there. No thanks.

[@gerryboudreaultboudreault2608]

Far too many people on this planet! And so, far too many private vehicles. We need much more/better public transport. And vast reductions in wasteful air travel...!

[@Canadian_Eh_I]

This should get ALOT more views

[@mkkrupp2462]

It was good that Art mentioned the greatest tragedy in all this - the massive loss of biodiversity and decline of non human sentient creatures by 69% since the 1970’s - as a result of human overshoot.

[@snorttroll4379]

De extinction and synthetic life fixes this

[@brianwheeldon4643]

A top level discussion, thanks all.

[@jasonaris5316]

One politician in living memory did raise this but was excoriated for doing so (and that was Carter) He was made out to be a backward peanut farmer when he was actually a trained USN nuclear engineer

[@michaels4255]

Great show, guys! Politically, the problem with degrowth is that it is another word for permanent recession/depression. How do you sell that to the voters when there will always be ambitious political rivals promising to "get the country moving again?"

[@mvondoom]

This conversation was really awesome. and depressing, but still awesome. I'm so tired of all the e.v. propaganda. an unrelated question to Nate: many of these podcasts leave me thinking about the issue of decreasing population and how that's going to interact with the Great Simplification. I've seen a lot of talk about countries facing demographic time bombs... what happens when a population decreases rapidly at the same time that material and energy scarcity become a real issue? Just thought I'd mention that as an interesting thing to look into...

[@rikardengblom6448]

Very good!

[@tristan7216]

The really big problem with recycling is separating the component materials when they've been physically or chemically combined into a product. Even if it's only physical bonding it's a lot of labor or machinery to recover, for example, all the copper in a motor. I think it's even worse for electronics. At least batteries only have a few components and there's economic incentive due to the lithium price. It may cost as much or more to unmake many products as it does to make them.

[@zoltanrudolf]

Wind turbines are a text book case of a composite product that basically can't be recycled but only buried!

[@rickwilliams1204]

Like windmills EV cars will end up being a nightmare later on when it comes time to dispose them. BTW Mining companies love EV products .

[@robinschaufler444]

I just discovered your yt channel and podcast, and am very glad I did. Not long before, I discovered the Post Carbon Institute and its podcasts. I deeply appreciate all this dosing of hard reality. The panelists did a great job of debunking EVs as a cure to the transportation sector's GHG emissions. One of them said he doesn't mean to be a doomer, but in light of the skepticism of global political-social action, it does amount to doom-saying. Might some set of aligned social scientists, political scientists, anthropologists, and post-neo-liberal economists form a think tank on how to unlock our locked-in behavior? It is more important to change behavior than to change minds. Numerous studies (sorry, I can't name a single one) have shown that often the behavior change comes first, and attitude change follows. When my daughter was little, I altered the environment in order to direct her behavior, and gradually she learned the discipline that the environment channeled. While cigarettes are still too much with us, smoking is vastly less than it was in the 1960s before the surgeon general's warning PR campaign and the FTC banned cigarette ads on TV. Before the PR campaigns of the 1920s put consumerism on the map, most working- and middle-class people embraced frugality as a virtue. People are social animals. They will do what will bring them social acceptance rather than what will satisfy greed or, sometimes, even basic necessities. People also gravitate toward convenience. If rail and bicycling became convenient, inexpensive, reliable, pleasant, and socially normalized, that's what people would use for transportation. If cars were derided a symbol of elitism, and were made inconvenient by a lack of gas stations, more toll roads, manned toll booths causing back-ups, people would gravitate away from cars. So no, you don't campaign for office on taking away peoples' cars. You campaign on building infrastructure and improving quality of life. Wouldn't a positive rail experience improve quality of life compared to sitting in traffic?

[@treefrog3349]

It has become increasingly obvious that an "economic incentive" has precluded and superseded any form of wisdom, honesty or justice in our current paradigm. Ignorance and naiveté is no longer and excuse, yet our decision-makers in government and industry "power on" as if we didn't know any better. Unabashed, exuberant economic incentives created the world we now live in, and it seems that those same incentives are now jeopardizing the whole of it. It is mind-numbing!

[@mrrecluse7002]

Yeah, we can't go back to being hunter-gatherers, and so some search for the next best thing.

[@edsteadham4085]

Wisdom honesty justice..as defined by whom? As enforced by whom? Are you ready for a guy like trump to define such things? Because when you grant power to government to define and enforce vague nonsense then be prepared for people you really don't like to hold swat over your llfe

[@lukashattingh7238]

This was great! Thanks.

[@mr.makeit4037]

Bravo Pedro for laying out the reality of what transportation will most likely be like. I can only add that transportation will once again be based upon where one is located, and what resources will be available there. We all grew up experiencing life under fossil fuels which provided a false sense of reality, giving us transportation in locations where they were not needed. One example of this is the new very large gas guzzling pick up truck carrying no load, with one driver, thru out urban areas. REALLY? I will conclude by saying that going forward that all transportation will be a "Mish mash" of different types of vehicles (i.e. electric, hydrogen, fossil energy or syn fuel, human powered, etc etc). P.S. GM has announced the partnership with a ev manufacturer to create a very small functional suv. Very basic and at a price point of starting under 12,000.

[@edsteadham4085]

Ah yes the gas guzzling pickup truck. Love to sneer at those people. Of course you don't need KZbin or a cell phone. Cell phones require more energy to manufacture than refrigerators but if yours break you will get a new one tomorrow energy use be damned . I'm sure you are energy wasteful in a thousand other ways in the eyes of others.....but pickup trucks are so uncouth. Your plane trips? Your car?:your ac or heat? Your fresh vegetables that arrive from thousands of miles away in the draft of winter? Nothing to sneer at.

[@josebegui]

Hey, edsteadham4085 above says he has a right to drive a gas guzzling pick up truck (probably jacked up with a train horn) because you use a cell phone, a car, an ac and go on planes. Makes perfect sense - LOL!

[@Pratiquement-Durable]

Thank you, Arthur, for that clear statement in favor of "less energy". Replacing all fossil fuels by carbon-free electricity is simply not possible due to astronomically high costs and missing metals. The real questions are: With how much less energy will we have to live ? and how will a decent life look like with that much less energy?

[@winthorpe2560]

There is a solution. It’s using less energy or the elephant in the room is simply less humans

[@edsteadham4085]

Which humans are you happy not to see?

[@winthorpe2560]

@@edsteadham4085 I’ve often heard the number 1 billion modern humans is sustainable so I guess a global one child policy until we reach that level. It’s either that or I think nature will enforce that number on us via famine due to environmental breakdown

[@kurtklingbeil6900]

Population whattaboutism is an idiotic elitist priviledged attitude with no merit

[@Sanulay]

I like that you asked "how could you be wrong?". That's a very good question for developing one's thinking.

[@kirstinstrand6292]

EVs are only another example of people's willful BLINDNESS. 😂😅

[@kirstinstrand6292]

Why are people 🙄 so stupid? Or is it that many are simply naively gullible? 😮

[@davestagner]

Problem right there in the early graphs… talking about the need for cobalt on the metals charts, presumably for lithium batteries. But cobalt is being rapidly phased out! I think Tesla has already gotten rid of cobalt in their battery chain completely, in favor of LFP technology (which uses cheap, common iron and phosphorus). So yeah, this is WRONG. There is an assumption that technologies remain static in the face of resource constraints, and it’s demonstrably not true. Resource constraints create economic motivation for cheaper technologies with less constraint - LFP batteries are a good example. There’s an economic critique here as well. Current production levels are set by current market demand, so the relatively low production (black line) today doesn’t mean we CAN’T do more, it means it’s not profitable to do more. Increasing supply just drives up production cost while driving down prices. Market forces are as real as thermodynamics, people. They explain a lot. Again, we can see this elsewhere. For example, the fracking and horizontal drilling techniques that have changed US oil and natural gas production in the past 15 years were invented almost a century ago. But they didn’t come into common use until it was economical to do so, as easier supplies were depleted and demand was (is) high. This economic model is why OPEC even exists - to prevent race-to-the-bottom overproduction that ruins profitability for all oil-producing nations. So I think these charts are making a lot of soup from a very small chicken, due to bad assumptions about technological change and market forces.

[@davestagner]

Next up… the idea that recycled steel is a very small percentage (in the US, 70% of steel used is recycled, others will catch up), followed by the idea that we don’t know how to make steel (or cement) without fossil fuels. We do. They’re just not in wide use at scale yet, partly because of competing with legacy plants, and partly because for now, they’re more expensive.

[@un-Denial]

A nice insight by Pedro Prieto: Our leaders are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation. Instead of focusing on EVs they should start by electrifying our trucks, tractors, and mining equipment. I would add our leaders would then quickly learn that they should focus on population reduction.

[@paulwhetstone0473]

You’re damn right! And Malthus was too! Lol

[@oliviachipperfield6029]

​@Paul Whetstone I agree with You

[@edsteadham4085]

I say we start population reduction with ickey people in ickey countries..

[@drewlee5300]

Great format Nate! I hope you can do more of these.

[@peterbennett2301]

The real truth and big picture was well expounded in the Limits to Growth World Model over 40 years ago

[@edsteadham4085]

During which 5imr poverty has declined scored the world to s magnificent degree and famines have been rate to non existent. Sure everything the club of Rome said would happen didn't but yeah let's use that a guide.

[@peterbennett2301]

Surely there's no getting round the fact that our planet has limited carrying capacity.The systems dynamics modelling system that was the basis of the World Model with it's inherent stocks, flows and causal feedback loops is surely a useful basis for macroscopic modeling of the current situation to produce informed big picture scenarios for decision making.

[@Dan5482]

Excellent discussion. Thank you!

[@felipearbustopotd]

32:32 Pedro's summing up on the ridiculous use of a car to transport 1 person is priceless as was 44:40 heavy plant machinery using electric as a power source. Thank you for uploading and sharing.

[@stephentrueman4843]

32:52 The greatest misallocation of resources in the history of the world A tool that spends > 97% of it's time doing nothing; machines don't need to rest

[@zoltanrudolf]

People just don't get it?! How do we smelt steel with solar and wind? It's lettuce to the bacon and steak of coal power as Simon put it in another video.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

​@@zoltanrudolfElectricity and hydrogen can be used to create steel, but the problem there for wind and solar is they can't create electricity sustainably.

[@zoltanrudolf]

@@aliendroneservices6621 If solar and wind can help an industrial society smelt steel so what? It will help us create a hell of a lot less!

[@jasonshaw7590]

Could be 1 person with a lot of gear on board. Gear they need for where ther'ye going.

[@dbadagna]

Why isn't agriculture mentioned in the global CO2 emissions by sector chart shown at 1:00:00? Also, why does the caption say that "passenger cars are responsible for only about 8% of global CO2 emissions" when the chart shows that passenger cars are responsible for 15% of global CO2 emissions?

[@paulwhetstone0473]

I raised the same point about passenger cars.

[@bobmorane4926]

After listening to the stupid arguments being formulated against decarbonization on this show, one thing comes to mind that has completely been missed and not given its due credit. The main reason EV became such a pressing issue in China was the devastating effect smog was causing to the health of the Chinese citizens. So you could say the decarbonization of the world was mostly driven by a concern for health issues and first and above all , ahead of decarbonization. The decarbonization was a side effect of the health mitigation policy instigated by China. That's hardly discussed in any discussion about climate change as if health isn't such a pressing issue in the West. It's true smog isn't as common in the west as China but the main driver for Chinese climate change policy was human health !! Think about it !!

[@frantisek_heca]

I have watched 2 episodes of this channel so far. First was about food&metabolism and modern diseases caused by overconsumtion and lack of movement, the second is this about automobiles (in general). I would bet that other episodes would nicely click into place of my following thought - Get rid of automobiles, move more with your body (walk, bike), public transport (trains...) = much healthier population, EV vehicles solved. Why we can't do that? Because less consumerism = inflation/defaltion spirals = people going to streets = wars. People are not frugal, patient and educated how this financial system is constructed - and the people create a lot of emotions (in the streets) so the wars will escalate - instead of patiently, frugally live with small and transform the society (to a model that is not based/trapped in the debt finance system).

[@dianewallace6064]

1:28:00 "Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson. "The future ain't what it used to be" Yogi Berra. "The answer to all your [why] questions is money." Shaq.

[@theduce3506]

"Old age ain't no place for sissies " Betty Davis

[@dianewallace6064]

@@theduce3506 That's a great quote also. My Dad used to quote that.

[@notafantbh]

Wow, this is going to be great

[@brianhawes3115]

I love the idea of a rush job, I’m in the building trade and every time I hear that I have to laugh, so you want a rush job? My customers wake up and say no , I don’t want a rush job, also I only have a few friends that could charge an electric vehicle, most park their cars, trucks on the street , maybe they could wait in line after work to get on a charger, maybe the wife and kids could bring them dinner while they are waiting, maybe they could live in the vehicle since that will be the space they spend the most time in

[@charliepellerin8041]

Art, brilliant!

[@sciencespotter]

"I'm not anti-capitalism" says Art Berman. This perfectly embodies our collective dilemma so well. Don't talk bad about the religion that created this ecological disaster or fear being labeled an evil communist. Greed, with the never-ending pursuit of resources and profits, IS the problem. Communism is just a different embodiment of greed. Only through collective acceptance of this vice can we finally move past it. I, unfortunately, find myself of the thought that it will take a complete collapse before the masses wake up. And then it might be too late. I hope not...

[@mrrecluse7002]

Yeah, I agree, but wake up and do what? I think this predicament has been marking time long enough to already be too late.

[@teddybearroosevelt1847]

I strongly disagree (and strongly agree with Art). There was an effort in the 1970s in the US and in Europe to make the transition from oil and gas to nuclear energy. If that hadn’t come to a halt, we would still have had several issues, but we wouldn’t have the problem of having way too much co2 in the air already. Many of the other problems are simply a problem of having too much people on this planet and nature has a way of solving these things: diseases or famines would have broken out. We as humans of course are also really good at killing each other. So that problem would have been more manageable. This co2 in the air and in the oceans is the big game changer and it happened cause the dynamic of the players (politicians, lobbyists, the media) was flawed. All systems we’ve had have had flaws. As humans we are flawed and we make mistakes all the time. That has got nothing to do with capitalism.

[@sciencespotter]

@@teddybearroosevelt1847 I agree with your points. But to be fair I didn’t say capitalism was the issue. Greed is the issue. That seems to be present regardless of the political economy. What drives the insatiable growth that results in population overshoot? Greed. More more more. I need more more more.

[@mrrecluse7002]

@@teddybearroosevelt1847 I think Edward Abbey nailed it when he said, "growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." The profit motive of Capitalism sort of reminds me of "girls gone wild." Of course, this is being debated in many places. You may be right about the lost opportunity about nuclear power. Maybe. I can only say that the "next generation" nuclear power plants are very impressive, but seem too late to respond on scale to the problems at hand. Overpopulation takes the cake, when it comes to overshoot, and too late to fix, due to powerful taboos. And now, people are whining for more people, due to the economic threats presented by demographics. So it looks like we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't, when it comes to overpopulation. And yes, as you say, humans are deeply flawed. That is the rest of the story. Thank you for responding.

[@mrrecluse7002]

@@sciencespotter Yes, but Capitalism is a paradise for greed.

[@aristocraticrebel]

This is awesome!

[@IanPritchard]

Gentlemen, I suspect that you are all too nice and reasonable to imagine that the politics behind these moves is entirely Malthusian in nature. Look at what's happening with that filter for a day or two and things become much clearer.

[@paulwhetstone0473]

I agree with your dismal outlook. The power brokers are totally down with Malthus. Lol

[@christopherhamilton3621]

This is empirical & factual, not political. Welcome to the conversation.

[@essecj59]

Thanks for an outstanding analysis.

[@ko6el]

Art B, Capitalism IS a problem bc of it's own mechanics of The falling rate of profit And The law of diminishing returns. All of which needs more production which is unsustainable on a planet of finite resources. We need Degrowth Doughnut,resource based economics, not more Capitalism

[@teddybearroosevelt1847]

If we would have made the transition from oil and gas to nuclear a half century ago, we would have a manageable crisis now. Capitalism isn’t to blame for that. In fact, the communist countries contributed just as well as their capitalist counterparts to the burning of oil and gas.

[@teiuq]

Great format!