Steve Bull and Erik Michaels: Post Doom with Michael Dowd

[@chrisp5413]

Great video Michael. Getting easier and easier (thanks to you) for me to weed out the bullshit when it comes to "how did we get here" and "whats gonna happen". My golden rule is: If the source is not focused on ecological overshoot of carrying capacity and/or energy limits, then its not a good source to be using. Of course there are exceptions to this, but this rule saves me a lot from going down incorrect rabbit holes. Your channel along with Nate Hagens "the great simplification", are such valuable treasures. Thanks for everything you do!

[@thegreatstory]

You're most welcome! (Yea, I love Nate and his work, too.)

[@bevcourtney4777]

Loved it! Thanks Michael.

[@thegreatstory]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@TheDoomWizard]

Both incredible writers. Erik's writing in particular makes my head spin. Thank you for putting on this conversation!

[@thegreatstory]

You're most welcome, Regan. I agree!

[@TheDoomWizard]

Also Dowd dropped the F bomb

[@pascalw.paradis8954]

Love your talks my friend. Like these guys too. Just from the Docs office. I have stomach cancer. I will miss so much but I had a good 64 years ❤️🌎❤️

[@EmeraldView]

👍Weird thing to say, but may we all be so fortunate to be able to legitimately check out early. I for one am not looking forward to what is in store for humanity. If a nuclear war broke out I'd head to a city center. Best wishes to you whatever they be.

[@TennesseeJed]

Yay! Reverend Reality is back!!

[@thegreatstory]

Thanks, Jed! 🙂

[@TennesseeJed]

Weirdest things happening on comments I follow these guys on m e d i u mmmm

[@thegreatstory]

@@TennesseeJed Great!

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

Hello Micheal,I have been listening to many of your recordings of books etc ..what a treasure trove..many thanks..from Australia..

[@thegreatstory]

Wonderful...thanks for letting me know!

[@justcollapse5343]

Thanks Michael for platforming Steve and Erik who both bring great insights into the nature of our #overshoot predicament. Lovely to see Erik Michaels return once again to Post Doom. Steve very usefully communicated how Ajit Varki's MORT (Mind over reality theory) brought him, away from a misanthropic, to a more compassionate mindset. For those wanting to further explore this are of interest, Just Collapse also recommends the work by Sheldon Solomon building on Ernest Becker's pulitzer prize winning "The Denial of Death". Particularly good is his KZbin discussion with Catherine Ingram.

[@gorongo6945]

Thanks Michael ... Erik and Steve are two of my favorites. Now it's time to go read Climate and Economy.

[@sultanbev]

15:37 agree totally, Erik's blog is my favourite blog, and most recommended.

[@trunoholdaway2114]

I'm definitely interested in a support group, I've been struggling with this off and on for the last 7 years. I've tried to talk about it with a many people but most just don't get it.

[@TheDoomWizard]

I just ended up making my own channel for that because society is completely utterly hopeless

[@thegreatstory]

See here: postdoom.com/discussions/ Also, Michael Shaw and Dean Spillane Walker have support groups.

[@dianewallace6064]

Environmental Coffeehouse KZbin channel does live shows with chats that are kind of like a support group also. They are doing a live show tonight at 9pm EST.

[@dianewallace6064]

@@thegreatstory Thanks for the link.

[@JohnVanMeter58]

What a bunch of depressing old men.

[@franciswarnock8977]

Thoroughly enjoyed watching you guys. My only comment would be, "most" is being generous. In my experience the vast majority don't get it.

[@nickkacures2304]

I have been really altering my course of believing in technology saving our bacon 🥓 it’s really hard for me because we should have taken a bold approach to climate changing pollution and losses of Biodiversity I now see the folly in believing in technology solving our climate predicament

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

Great guests..

[@thegreatstory]

Thanks...I agree!

[@collapseaphorisms6243]

Thanks all

[@thegreatstory]

You're most welcome. My joy, actually.

[@dianewallace6064]

51:00 Jared Diamond's book Collapse (and Guns, Germs and Steel 1997) is what started me on my Collapse (2006) journey. In 2008, I found out about methane clathrates (and even methane hydrates). I'm a Chemist so it was a gut punch. Yeah, game over already. The cake is baked. Prof. Diamond gets a bad rap as being too hopium. I watched a recent interview with him and he said he does have a "prepper" room (like I do).

[@dandilion62]

Reading limits to growth and Ehrlich's the end of affluence back in 1975 did it for me....I learned about overshoot in 10th grade biology class.

[@alexspringett]

Love me a dose of Dowd & co reality check .....everyone should be aiming to live a real life given our current predicament. Why waste your time in fantasy land

[@dianewallace6064]

43:00 I love Start Trek (and Star Wars) and watch all the spinoffs too. I'm of that age. LOL.

[@dianewallace6064]

1:15 Collapsing sooner than later may indeed help the Earth. It's all about the physics, folks. We know that Earth will rebalance from a higher energy state to a lower energy state. Thank heavens for this reality. I am sad for the innocent fauna and flora.

[@bevcourtney4777]

You mentioned 'bottleneck'. Have you read Catton's 'Bottleneck' also.

[@thegreatstory]

Yes, it's good, but not as life-changingly great as Overshoot.

[@yetihunting]

Hi, I missed a couple links. What was the climate/economy website that you read every day? And what's Connie's assisted migration of North American forests site? I'm very interested in trees that I can help get established in my area. Thanks for all the knowledge and wisdom!

[@sunsetfoglight]

gail zawacki's blog on the effect of pollution (ground-level ozone) on trees worldwide witsendnj.blogspot.com/

[@jimicunningable]

www.youtube.com/@ghostsofevolution - Connie Barlow's page

[@donniemoder1466]

Interesting. Glad you interviewed these 2. No Santa Claus. I really need a blueprint how to face abrupt unstoppable climate change abd collapse of our civilization/existential threat.

[@coldspring22]

Yes most of the humanity will crash and burn. But why is it not possible to create a society which stands apart from rest of humanity and is designed to be sustainable from ground up and survive fall of rest of humanity? But I suppose if such society existed, and outsiders found out about it it will be only short time later when they will be invaded and destroyed.

[@dianewallace6064]

1:01:00 I can't discuss at all with family either. That's pretty typical I think. My Mom is 90 yrs old and she thinks we are "doomed" due to politics. I say "Yes, we are doomed, Mom, but due to climate change." She smiles like 'Mom knows better' and changes the subject. At least we both know we are doomed. LOL.

[@Lyra0966]

Family, friends and acquaintances: almost without exception the people in my life don't want to hear or accept the reality of our global predicament. I've given up entirely trying to talk to people about these issues. My friends think I'm simply too pessimistic, my step-children regard me as an alarmist. And even the most well-informed of my close friends do not appreciate the complexities involved in the issue of collapse. Instead they focus on the 'promise' of technology and the bright green renewables industry they expect will save us from a calamitous future. How does one succinctly explain the interrelated and compounding issues of EROI, over- complexity, diminishing efficiency gains, ecological overshhoot, global warming, scalability of 'solutions', fossil fuel industry stranded assets, costs of new infrastructure, finance and investment limitations, global debt, political ignorance, societal inertia, Jevon's Paradox, peak oil/minerals, general resource limitations, capitalist constraints, exponentialities, and many more besides? I haven't found the language that encapsulates all these issues and concepts in to an easily comprehensible form. So now I just don't bother talk to anyone about any of this. And as things begin to fall apart over the next decade or two I'll try not to tell them, "I tried my best to warn you".

[@dianewallace6064]

@@Lyra0966 Very well said.

[@mrbisse1]

Here's a somewhat perverse, perhaps, comment for Steve. Regarding the development that might occur across the road from you... you might put a sign out asking for used mirrors and then build and maintain a sort of mirror "privacy fence" with the mirrors reflecting back at the development and showing them what they are doing instead of giving them the view of what you are doing.

[@dianewallace6064]

1:13:00 We are like locusts to me (and I mean no disrespect to locusts).

[@coleorum]

Perhaps the greatest irony is that nature gives us everything for free. We are the only creature on the planet that has to give everything a value. Nature is now in the process of showing us that our folly is coming home to roost.

[@OurPredicament]

my most influential book was read as a child and called "Wump World"

[@A.BC-]

Another great conversation. I'll keep it short: Keep rubbing those feet and your day starts pretty good... 😉. (But I don't need to tell you that, hihi...) Say HI to Conny, and thanks for being you. 😊. Greetings again from the Netherlands (🇳🇱). ❤️🤍💙.

[@erwin643]

For Erik: So... I guess this means we're not going back to the Moon, or Mars? Damn.

[@anabolicamaranth7140]

Who needs chem trails when you’ve got forrest fire smoke.

[@chadcooper6976]

MORT - mind over reality transition.

[@thegreatstory]

Yes, I've read Varki (and greatly enjoyed it), had two conversations with Rob Mielcarski (whose work I love), and yet have a different interpretation of why denial is so widespread among us civilized people.

[@dianewallace6064]

AI = war games + grey goo

[@sultanbev]

43 mins: Yes Tim Watkins

[@dion8962]

Its ironic to listen to a breeder talk about “degrowth” 😅 No wonder they need a 50 car parking lot in the field across the street.. where else are all the breeders offspring going to park? Its ok for you to breed but not everyone else? How does that work? Dont people realize.. its human overpopulation and overconsumption that’s creating all these problems? Pump out a bunch kids then complain about all the people moving in on your neighborhood.. pfft!!! 25 couples having 2 kids each is 100 people. Dont take much to fill up a car park these days. Just think the resources it takes to support 100 people with todays standards of living in Toronto. Chickens, pigs, plastic, fuel, clothing, paper, fresh water, concrete, human waste, on n on.. breeders dont think about the consequences of their genitalia touching each other.

[@A.BC-]

@dion8962: "Nice rant", BUT did you know everything 30 years ago?. The answer is: NO... Thats why we learn trueout our lifetime (...mostley).😅. / ✌️.

[@dion8962]

@@A.BC- Just think the 50 offspring meet someone have 2 kids each, is 200 people, then the 100 offspring meet someone and have 2 kids each is 400 people and then the 200 offspring meet someone and have 2 kids is 800 people. See how rapidly the world can get overpopulated in a few generations? People know we are fkd and are still having kids.

[@dion8962]

@@corrie8659 The core issue is human overpopulation and individual lifestyle choices (especially breeding). Explain it to the latinos, im sure theyd love to hear what you have to say. Or better yet, China, India, and Africa.. send them some of your money so they can breed more and ask for more aid. Keep on breedin on.. as you say Wasf anyways.. im sure the kids will love to learn that as soon as theyre able.

[@ParadoxPerspective]

The ever-present theme here is just guilt. While nobody is technically wrong to identify litanies of problems related to ecology and then come to the conclusion that whatever scope of consideration you have (in this case industrialized society) is not sustainable IS technically correct, it is also a myopic view. Nothing is sustainable. You live in an ever-unfolding cosmos, and are making the anthropocentric fallacy to say that humans directly caused the conditions of collapse. Had we been hunter-gatherers, we would just as readily die off in any number of natural or pseudo-natural eventualities. The human race nearly came to an end several times already in our evolutionary past. Also, why the concern with humans? Also-also, why the ever-deep theme of guilt that industrial activity is ever so one-dimensionally bad? These concepts of good and evil do not apply to an evolutionary process; they are cultural spins on individual survival conditions. As far as we can tell, the biosphere absent of humanity is an aggressive net carbon sink. It is historically bottle-necked at the level of volcanic activity which introduces elements from mantel chemistry into the biosphere as we know it. (The biosphere has fuzzy boundaries, and may extend far deeper into the planet as well as far further out than we initially presume-- and in ways we are not accustomed to considering) The only other organisms that assist humanity in introducing carbon sources are the fungi-- and they cannot reach nearly as deep into the crustal reservoirs of past-sunk carbon as we humans can. It may very well be that from an evolutionary standpoint, industrial humanity is a defense or preparation function that the broader ecosystem has for itself. From a broader viewpoint; our function as a species is to introduce carbon for a few short centuries such that the concentration of CO2 climbs from ~330ppm to ~450ppm, and then collapses. These small corrective functions are crucial for a persistent biosphere, and judging on how the biosphere has persisted already for billions of years on this planet and has adapted to apocalyptic events the likes of which we can scarcely appreciate; I would say that it is a myopic and anthropocentric view to push forth the idea that these few centuries are somehow significant to anything broader than our own quite temporary scope. I could be wrong. We could be the genesis of industrial revolutions throughout the cosmos. Out of all that's out there, it's here. At this point in time, that significance truly occurs. And even more peculiarly that it would occur only here and now with this species on this planet at this time and that starwars and star trek are really just preludes to the omnipotent might of humanity and that all of nature is a passive victim to this new kid on the block... But I heavily doubt that. I cannot know the world in its true state; it is more complex than I am, but I can understand human biases-- and this bias here is anthropocentrism.

[@thegreatstory]

Thanks for your thoughtful comment, but while it's possible that for one or both of my guests "the ever-present theme here is guilt" may be true, it's decidely not true with respect to my own worldview and sense of reality. I especially recommend my CACOR presentation and Q&A, "The Big Picture: Beyond Hope and Fear" both linked here: postdoom.com/resources/

[@Jodamo]

I don’t think you are right or wrong. Our view of morality is meaningless to evolution. But this just seems like a fancy way to say that all of our extraction, exploitation, and destruction of other life is justified. A very convenient thing for us to want to believe.

[@maretranquillity]

No subtitles! Deaf or hearing impaired people are excluded. Not a good look for a program like this, Mr. Dowd.

[@thegreatstory]

I agree! I'd have to go back and watch it again to add subtitles and I don't have time this weekend as I'm pressed for two writing deadlines. Thanks for the suggestion, however.

[@sisypheanexistence8955]

Hi. Turn on CC autogenerated and it should be accurate enough to follow the program. ☺

[@maretranquillity]

@@sisypheanexistence8955 I tried that as I do with all videos, but the little notice came up saying that subtitles were not available.

[@philipdavidparker]

@@maretranquillity - Hi, click on the three dots "..." next to "share" and "download", then click "show transcript"

[@maretranquillity]

@@philipdavidparker Thank you, I did not know that feature existed. Good to know, it will broaden my field of exposure to videos without subtitles. Thanks again.

[@sunsetfoglight]

re significant influences: gail zawacki (sadly passed away june 2022) witsendnj.blogspot.com/

[@sunsetfoglight]

wish you'd mentioned more women... there were zero in any of your lists until steve brought up alice F & gail T at the very end. how about rachel carson, "silent spring"??

[@thegreatstory]

Yes, yes, of course! (Guilty as accused.)